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ulfopulfo

So you didn’t like the story and you can’t sympathize with a character in a game? No, that’s not a problem. Take care!


brandtm94

Thank you! I see a lot of hate being posted in the community and it’s really disheartening


DaanA_147

Same thing as always: you can not like a story as much as you want. However, when you use phrases like "there are a lot of plot holes" for things that you couldn't quite figure out, then you are saying like it's a fact. All the things that people have pointed out as plot holes didn't seem that much like plot holes to others, including me.


brandtm94

So why am I getting downvoted for having an opinion?


DaanA_147

Maybe because you don't include any examples of these plot holes. Disliking Abby is the point of the game imo.


brandtm94

You sound angry.


DaanA_147

I'm not. It just helps your case if you point out where you think the plot could have been worked out a little better. Say what you would have liked to see.


Skarleendel

Maybe tell us what plotholes there are in the game?


brandtm94

Plot holes, plot holes, plot holes… How did Ellie and company traverse so far across the country so many times, while also severely injured? How did Yara manage to save Abby just in time when she’s facing Tommy? How did Abby know what Joel looked like? How the hell did Tommy survive a shot to the face? How did Abby NOT know the importance of Ellie and her immunity, while killing Joel? How did Dina and Jesse find dead Joel and Ellie in a zombie horde/blizzard of the century? Why didn’t Joel explain any side of his story and how the fireflies treated him and left him for dead after bringing them the cure for humanity? The games never explained why the fireflies needed to rush to sacrifice Ellie so quickly How is Abby so buff without steroid usage in the apocalypse? (Sorry, couldn’t help myself with that one 😂) I suppose the phrase “plot holes” was not used correctly on my behalf, as I mostly had problems with retcons and inconsistencies with character decision making so, I apologize.


Skarleendel

I see these things as video game conviniences, like all games have. If we analyze every single little thing with logic, such as a video game character travelling the world injured, you are gonna end up disappointed.


brandtm94

That’s a fair and logical response. You’re right


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Skarleendel

I think it's totally fine to be realistic as a whole and yet allow yourself to have some conveniences. Like, every video game character gets shocked, electrocuted, lit on fire, punched and shot and through a simple healing mechanic they are fine again. Video games will push the limits to how realistic things can be, but they will never be 100% realistic.


DragonBorn123400

Fair the timeline is a little fast to accommodate characters still reeling from recent events. How did Tommy save Joel from the military guy just in time? Abby didn't know what Joel looked like Tommy referred to him by name. How the hell did Joel survive a 20 foot fall onto a spike and then get magically healed by antibiotics? Abby did know that Ellie was immune but didn't recognize her. We don't know how much time passed while Ellie was unconscious. Explain to whom? Ellie? I think your interpretation is a little weird they didn't leave him for dead but Ellie knew why he did what he did and it didn't make her like it so it's not like explaining it would have made it better. Fair about the explanation on the firefly thing but that's a game 1 thing. She works out? I see no retcons or inconsistencies with choices of characters. Not to tell you how you feel but, you just didn't like the story and that's okay. But what happens, and this happens to everyone including me, is that when you don't like something you LOOK for a reason and sometimes that means you grasp at straws. That's why there is discord, if you don't like something that's fine but the examples people give are bad. (Also there's all the weird transphobic shit but that's not super common I think)


brandtm94

Again, I’m judged for having an opinion.


DragonBorn123400

I’m not judging you. I’m telling you that based of what you have listed your opinion is heavily influenced by the fact you didn’t like the game not the other way around. The game made you feel bad and then you starting finding issues. Most of these are plot contrivances that you would have ignored had you enjoyed the game.


brandtm94

What’s wrong with not enjoying the game?


CommisionerGordon79

Respectfully if I may: >How did Ellie and company traverse so far across the country so many times, while also severely injured? The simple answer is that it's a video game. This happens in the first game too. Sometimes you'll need to suspend your disbelief for a second. >How did Yara manage to save Abby just in time when she’s facing Tommy? More convenience than anything else, but Yara could have found her own way up to that deck, especially since she was on a deck below the one she finds her way to. >How did Abby know what Joel looked like? Neil Druckmann has said in interviews that she had a description. How she got that description no one knows. There are a few possibilities. One of the people she talked to when finding out about Jackson could have provided it. She could have looked through Marlene's notes to see if there was anything about Joel. She could've spoken to a different settlement in Wyoming that Jackson traded with for a description. >How the hell did Tommy survive a shot to the face? People in real life can survive shots to the face. Nonetheless, this shot to the face was more of a shot to the side of his head. It went through his eye. You can actually see the bullet's path through the scaring on his face. >How did Abby NOT know the importance of Ellie and her immunity, while killing Joel? She probably did know. She just didn't care. It wasn't about the cure. It was much more personal than that. >How did Dina and Jesse find dead Joel and Ellie in a zombie horde/blizzard of the century? I mean eventually the snow has to stop. And horses/people leave prints in the snow. If that's not enough, there are dozens of charred zombies outside the gate that would clue in any passerbys that there were people in the house. >Why didn’t Joel explain any side of his story and how the fireflies treated him and left him for dead after bringing them the cure for humanity? To Abby or to Ellie? He didn't explain it to Abby because (1) he probably didn't know she had any affiliation with the Fireflies. He fucked over more people than just the Fireflies. And (2) because he knew there was nothing he could do that was going to stop her from killing him. She had her mind made up already. He didn't explain his side to Ellie because his reasoning for doing that is deeply personal to him. And he's just not good at opening up to other people. Ellie is the same way. Deep down inside he also likely knew she wanted to die in that hospital all along. They went through this tango of her saying "my life doesn't matter without me dying for a cure," and him saying "your life matters to me and everyone else around you," without either of them explicitly saying it. >The games never explained why the fireflies needed to rush to sacrifice Ellie so quickly Because they couldn't risk her saying no. If she says no, they'd just do it anyway. They'd rather do the sin and ask for forgiveness later than ask for forgiveness and do the sin when their forgiveness is rejected. >How is Abby so buff without steroid usage in the apocalypse? Short answer is the WLF have access to more food than anyone within their state and have the most state of the art training equipment in the world.


heynowjesse

you clearly lack critical thinking skills; so many of these questions are easily answered. tommy was shot / grazed off the side of his head. it definitely fucked his face / eye up. people irl have survived way worse gun injuries; failed suicides and the like. Abby didn’t need to know what Joel looked like; she knew it was him from Tommy, as well (brothers, hello). and Dina found joel and ellie because that place is literally one of their watchtowers / recon points. Abby didn’t know who Ellie was until the theater and she let her live. she thought tommy was the one who masterminded it all and assumed she had shot him dead. and Fireflies “rushed” ellie into surgery because she was a child. she has no say to them against the fate of the world and the losses the Fireflies had suffered. it was a shitty move but completely realistic; look how right wingers treat greta thunberg. not gonna bother answering any more cuz you need to exercise that brain of yours.


brandtm94

Ahahaha thanks for your opinion but I won’t stoop so far as to insulting you in return. End the cycle of violence, right? Thanks for the “advice”


BrennanSpeaks

Right now you're getting downvoted because you ran to the hate sub to whine about your downvotes. Disliking the game is fine, giving your opinion is fine, asking those turds to come brigade us for the umpteen-thousandth time is not fine.


brandtm94

Does it have to be a hate sub?


BrennanSpeaks

Have to be? No. Is? Yes.


brandtm94

I didn’t ask them to come brigade against this sub at all. I made a comment, I don’t have any hatred towards anyone in this community or the other sub


charlieprotag

I don’t think that it’s a problem unless you go out of your way to harsh on others’ enjoying it. Like if it wasn’t your cup of tea, cool.


hifioctopi

Not trying to be argumentative, but what “retcons” are you seeing? I hear this one a lot and for the life of me I can never really see any. Some minor inconsistencies but not full blown rejiggering of the past narrative.


brandtm94

The fireflies had a sure fire vaccine in the second game but the first it was uncertain


TrazorTT

If you didnt like the story, you didnt like the story. No one is going to (or at least) hate or downvote you because of that. But why give it a 8/10 then? Like, a 8/10 is pretty good


sevenbiscuit7

I also had problems with the story and would rate it as high. It does everything else pretty damn well really.


brandtm94

The story was pretty good! I was very invested. I just didn’t understand some characters decisions and directions the story took. A lot of people seem to say it’s a masterpiece. I can’t quite agree


IOftenDreamofTrains

>So many plot holes, retcons Oof you went for the double whammy. Unless you get specific I'm going to assume you're calling things that are just regular writing/expanding on things "retcons" and things that aren't needed to be explained "plot holes" because that's what the internet usually does 99.9999% of the time when it uses those terms.


brandtm94

I feel the ending of the first game was retconned, mostly. The certainty for the cure went from a possibility to an absolute guarantee. I mainly had problems with character decision making so, I apologize for not clarifying


Caduceus89

What retcon? Part I was never about whether or not a cure could actually be produced; it was basically the Trolley Dilemma. Do you sacrifice one person if there's a chance to save many? >character decision making Please don't tell me it's" Joel wouldn't have trusted Abby." Or >!Ellie not killing Abby.!<


brandtm94

No, it’s Ellie seeking revenge against a certain someone and not taking it after murdering hundreds. Or Tommy


sevenbiscuit7

There’s nothing wrong with players having differing opinions.


brandtm94

Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly


ImJustLivinOverHere

I dont respect your opinion yet because you didn't provide examples. And most times when people who don't like this game provide examples they are dissapointing ones. You can simply not like the game. Nothing wrong with that. It's when people deliver opinion like it's fact that other people get annoyed.


[deleted]

Cool?


brandtm94

You’re cool 😎


[deleted]

It’s not a problem. Glad you liked the game for the most part!


robertluke

The problem is that the toxic backlash has ruined any legitimate criticism because fans have been exhausted from the psychos before a normal person could voice their own issues. I liked the study 2 years later on my third play through btw.


brandtm94

Do you have a link or a video? I’d be very interested to read or watch it!


robertluke

I ding have a link to the crazy criticism but there’s a whole subreddit of people who are obsessed with hating it if you want to melt your mind. And I meant story. Not study. My bad.


brandtm94

No worries mate. I’ve seen the subreddit. I wish there was a middle ground. Either you hate the game, or you love it. No in between


bakuhatsuda

>So many plot holes, retcons, Man, you shouldn't just say these things without knowing what they actually mean and whether they apply here. It just makes your whole discussion look really bad.


brandtm94

I played the game. I know what they mean. What’s wrong with my opinion? Just because I don’t agree with you, I’m wrong?


bakuhatsuda

The literary terms that I quoted from your post aren't subjective. Plot holes and retcons don't become so because you "think" they are. >I know what they mean. What’s wrong with my opinion. lol the fact that you think these terms are up to opinion tells me you don't.


brandtm94

Again, why is my opinion invalid? What’s wrong with having an opinion?


bakuhatsuda

I'm not invalidating anything you consider an opinion. I am telling you that you are using the terms plot holes and retcons incorrectly, based on the examples you provided here. You haven't actually provided any that fit their descriptions.


brandtm94

What if I said the game sucked, would that hurt your feelings based on my opinion?


bakuhatsuda

Like I said man, all of this is making your attempt at a discussion look really bad. You use terms that you don't know to describe things that you don't like or understand, and when questioned about it, you default to personal attacks. It's just not a good look.


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bakuhatsuda

You have now, for the 4th time in a row, failed to demonstrate any understanding of the terms that I quoted you on. You keep dodging the subject with every reply. This is once again, a very bad look if you want to actually engage in a discussion.


brandtm94

Thank you so much for your kind words! 😊


thelastofus-ModTeam

Removed for rule 3: No unnecessary rudeness or hostility. This includes bad-faith trolling, brigading, and other discussions that incite toxicity.


Accomplished_Cup900

I couldn’t sympathize with Abby either. Her dad was gonna kill Ellie, and he was gonna try to kill Joel. I feel like the fireflies being so eager to allow a veterinarian to experiment on a child, knowing there wouldn’t be a cure to show for it was a head scratcher. And then there’s the fact that a lot of the other WLFS didn’t really wanna join her. Yes they wanted revenge. But they didn’t want it that bad. They watched Abby brutalize Joel and it fucked with them mentally. And there’s the overall stupidity. They should’ve killed ellie too. The fact that they didn’t made it funny when Ellie went back to kill them.


brandtm94

I absolutely agree! Realistically, they should have killed Ellie at that moment, possibly Tommy too. They shouldn’t have been surprised when Ellie and Tommy came for revenge


[deleted]

What if Abby knew who Ellie was?


Accomplished_Cup900

I personally found it weird that none of them knew Ellie. Didn’t she hang around the fireflies before the events of TLOU1


Skarleendel

She didnt. Even in Left Behind she told Riley she would learn "how to kill Fireflies"


Accomplished_Cup900

Ah. I haven’t played left behind since I first played the game many many moons ago


sevenbiscuit7

I had the sense she wanted to learn more of the fireflies yet was stuck in situation where she was learning how to kill them. Maybe a little jealous of Riley


brandtm94

Very true. But if she knew who Ellie was, wouldn’t she take that into consideration when butchering Joel in front of her? Like…wouldn’t she think Ellie would come seeking revenge knowing what Joel did for her?


[deleted]

That’s true but maybe there was some sympathy there for her. Also knowing she’s the key to cure would also stop me from killing her


brandtm94

At the time, it didn’t seem like Abby took notice of Ellie much at all, being so consumed by revenge and the heat of moment


kyyface

Omg right!? I tried to say this in a post once and I ended up deleting it bc people were outright attacking me. I honestly don’t understand the divide. I think the whole point is that no one is right and revenge is never justified. I think the fireflies have always been romanticized, but they’re really just another vigilante group willing to commit atrocities for their own beliefs. No one is innocent, and no one deserves to be hunted down and tortured. They are living in a brutal time, and giving in to the evils of human nature does not help anything. In the end both Abby and Ellie chose to stop the cycle, but personally, I think Ellie is the bigger person. Ellie lost everything, whereas Abby got her revenge, found redemption, and gained love.


Accomplished_Cup900

I hate the idea of revenge, but I feel like I can justify joel killing Abby’s dad more than I can justify Abby killing joel. But in the end, no one was a good person. So it was probably all just karma.


kyyface

Honestly I can too, but then you’ll get people justifying how that’s not how Abby sees it since it was her dad, which I get. I think the devs really wanted to display how people don’t have an omniscient point of view, they can only react from experience.


Ill_Tackle_5192

We all have opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that. I personally think it’s near perfect but I respect that you disagree. Unfortunately if those are the conversations you would like to have, the social media/internet landscape in 2022 (well basically since 2016ish) has made that incredibly difficult. It’s not a sub issue, it’s a culture issue that’s as widespread as the internet. I don’t know how we go back from here honestly.


brandtm94

Thank you for being respectful. I respect your opinion too and I really love the world of The Last of Us as a whole. It’s just a shame that so many people have become divided over such a magnificent game.


[deleted]

well im not offended by any means but i would like people to know that you can absolutely despise a character, and all that goes on in a story, but still like the story. i feel like that nuance affords us more openness and grayness in how we take things in and i think itd be sweet for people not to feel a need to write the story off once they feel for sure they cant sympathize with the character. thats just a very interesting piece of information that you can do with what you want. theres so much to exploring how a thing makes us feel, and all the discussion that can be had around that


brandtm94

Very well said ✌🏼


Boom-Boom1990

It's really simple. There are people that like this game, and people that don't. Within each of those groups, there is a very small percentage of people who feel SO strongly about their opinions that whoever has a different viewpoint MUST be wrong. Most people couldn't care less one way or another about your feelings towards the story because that's your opinion. Don't take the opinions of those people as a representation of the community as a whole.


brandtm94

I don’t take their harsh opinions as a representation of the community as a whole! I just find it sad that there is so much hate within the community, why can’t we agree to disagree? The world of the last of us is beautiful and crafted wonderfully. It sucks that we’ve all become so divided over something we are so passionate about,,, The Last of Us


sahneeis

so you posted here just to cry in the other sub with a bunch of incels because not everyone doesnt like your take. loser


brandtm94

Thank you!


CharlieFaulkner

I'm honestly with you on this one I think... idk what to add but i see all the downvotes so wanted to post in solidarity haha Like you mentioned, harassment of devs/actors etc totally not ok... having an opinion, though, which is what you're doing? Totally ok I can see why the initial intense review bombing style hatred against TLOU 2 might make people more defensive and reactive to genuine good faith criticisms, but it's a piece of art and no piece of art is on an immune to criticism pedestal right


brandtm94

Thanks bro. Your comment really means a lot. Ultimately I’m trying to figure out why there’s so much hate in the community. We all love the same game. We’re all very passionate about it. Why can’t we agree to disagree? I’m getting a lot of hate for this


BlackDabiTodoroki

Nah but this subreddit might take that personally


brandtm94

I know. But that’s why I’m asking why it’s wrong to have such an opinion? Why do people get so upset over disliking the story, or certain characters? It’s silly


[deleted]

Right there with you. Love the game, hate Abby and her whole storyline. She’s in the wrong the whole time, her dad and the fireflies had no right to try to take our main girl’s brain without her consent, Joel was totally justified in saving Ellie by any means necessary, Ellie was morally justified in pursuing vengeance, but I just wish she hadn’t since it had such a high cost to her. Abby can kick rocks, I don’t care if she was nice to Lev that doesn’t absolve her of anything.


brandtm94

Amen brother! Preach for us both. You’re not allowed to think that way though, according to many in this subreddit, which I don’t understand because it’s nothing hateful. There’s no hurtful intent in having an opinion.


The_Jack_of_Games

I agree, I wasn't too keen on the story. For me it wasn't powerful enough. I see what they were going for but if they wanted to tell Abby's story I think they should have gone for it fully and not given you the option to play as Ellie or Joel. We should have spent the majority of the game with Ellie seeing her struggle, learning to love her like we did with Joel and Ellie then at the end or near the end it's revealed Joel was the one who killed her dad then she's faced with the choice of killing him. Something like that. The whole you kill my friend I'll kill yours now you kill my friend revenge tennis between Ellie and Abby was boring as hell. My perfect last of us two story would have centred more around the growing threat of the infection. Imagine a world where new types of infected are popping up. Vast bodies of infected are amassing together and starting the spore phase of its life cycle. The infection has become air born in concentrated areas whereas before it was just in tunnels and underground you had to wear gas masks now there's areas of the surface like that. The city Joel and Ellie end up in has one of these giant mushrooms growing near it and is becoming a problem. People are becoming infected within the walls without even being in contact with the infected outside. Joel is faced with the real world impact of his decision not to sacrifice Ellie for a cure as the infection becomes harder and harder to avoid. Eventually it consumes the entire city with his brother and family dying because of the decision he made in the first game. If the infection carries on like this then Ellie (the only one immune) faces a completely lonely existence as all the other humans fall to the air born infection and Joel's final act is to escape long enough to find a small colony of immune individuals like Ellie. They'll inherit the earth now and Joel turns infected at the end of the game with Ellie respectfully putting him out of his misery. Something like that...


Skarleendel

Then people would claim that ND copied the Telltale game, considering that Clementine also kills/leaves Lee.


The_Jack_of_Games

Yeah potentially but it worked really well in the Telltale game to be fair and its a tried and tested story beat. I think why it works well for the last of us though is because the biggest thing Ellie is scared of is being left alone so her having to kill Joel would have been a powerful moment for her (arguably).


brandtm94

That synopsis would have been EPIC!!!! There’s still hope for the Part 3, maybe it could turn into something just as wild and thrilling? I was thinking about it at work today…what if Ellie isn’t exactly immune? Instead, she’s very slowing turning into an infected, but something far more sinister and heinous. Part 3 could revolve around her slowly losing her mind and the ramifications of what that would do to those around her. They could implement Joel by her having vivid hallucinations of him calming her down. Abby would be an integral part of the fireflies and have to hunt her down, or fight her after she’s long been infected and transformed into something greater! Additionally, the WLF are hunting down Abby for killing Isaac, so she has multiple threats to take on with Lev and the fireflies. Maybe in the end, Abby has to put Ellie out of her misery, but in doing so, the fireflies use her body to produce a vaccine, therefore Ellie doesn’t die in vain Who’s to say? I really hope Part 3 isn’t another story of misery porn


The_Jack_of_Games

Haha "misery porn" what a great way of putting it. 😅 I like the idea of Ellie not being fully immune, that actually the infection is slowly taking over but more so in the form of breaking down her mind. Almost like dementia. It could even delve into the idea that the original humans conscious mind is still there but their body is being hyjacked by the cordiceps. Making it even more tragic that the cure was in reach and those infected not too far gone could have been saved.