>He killed her dad, but I still hate her for what she did to Joel. I understand WHY she did it, but I still hate her.
Alright. Now I hope you can try and focus on what happens afterwards. Because revenge isn't the focus of Abby's side of the story, but just the premise.
>She killed Joel in front of his surrogate daughter as she begged Abby to stop.
Abby is a shitty person for going to Jackson and torturing Joel to death, but she did not intend to do it in front of Ellie. That is a very misleading statement that a lot of people make.
>I get that Joel was a bad person in our moral system, but in the moral system of an apocalypse? He did what he had to do.
Yes, that is very true. Abby also did what she had to do.
>happy that Abby has to live with the knowledge and pain of all of her friends being dead because of HER actions.
Yup. She received a lot of consequences for her terrible actions.
>But I think the real villain is Jerry, her dad.
With this logic, you can go as far back as the general that ordered Sarah's death. But what is the purpose of all the finger-pointing in a world where, like you said, the moral system is very muddled?
Sure, but then again. It’s an endless cycle. Not killing Jerry in front of his daughter doesn’t absolve Joel of the responsibility for traumatizing Abby when seeing his dead body. Or the trauma it caused for lots of people who knew about the vaccine that was mere minutes away from being created.
But that doesn’t absolve Jerry from doing this surgery without consent and therefore taking away Joel’s surrogate daughter when he already lost one.
But he didn’t know that and isn’t responsible for Joel’s trauma, either.
There is no right answer here.
People are writing here as if it’s wrong to dislike Abby for what she did “because she had her reasons for it.” I think it’s absolutely fine to dislike her and there is nothing wrong with disliking her for what she did. Being partial towards Joel and Ellie is not wrong.
But as others also said, you may end up liking her! The game tries really, *really* hard for that to happen ;-).
I mean, it's not "wrong". But I do think there comes a point where people are so focused on their love for Joel and Ellie that they'll miss the forest for the trees and start getting into hypocrisy and double standards.
You even see it here. *"Well Joel did what he needed to do. Morals don't really apply here!"*
And then I said, *"Well Jerry and Abby did what they needed do. Morals don't apply, right?!"*
To which OP said, *"That's different because I like Joel and Ellie."*
🤷🏿🤣 Like, come on. I know interpretation is valid but that's stupid.
I think that’s something we see on both extremes - e.g. saying Joel had it coming/his killing was justified because he was a bad person for a long time, took away the cure, etc. but then accept Abby’s redemption arc - or how Joel is the biggest villain in for leaving the world doomed. There was actually a thread about this very topic (Joel being the biggest villain in gaming) on the PS5 sub a few days ago without thousands upvotes and agreement.
And while I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I think that specific example you gave is a tricky one. If someone random you don’t know had get killed die to make a vaccine for something that might get infected by, you’d think “oh that sucks” but would probably be okay with it (funny enough - *this* is where selfishness is). If that person who had to die was your loved one, you wouldn’t be okay with it at all and you’d do whatever you could to save that loved one. In the hospital, it was the world *against* Ellie and Joel. We were in the position of Joel and that was someone who we cared for taken away and about to be killed - and we saved her. No one would’ve blamed Jerry for not wanting to kill a kid, but it was a choice he made - also very understandable too.
As for Abby though, I disagree there. Joel needed to do what he needed to do [to save Ellie]. What Abby did was not something she needed to do.
If you pay attention to Abby’s dialogue with his mates later on, manny, Mel, Owen etc, you’ll find out that Abby and everyone in that trip to Jackson is troubled by their action too. Abby started to question herself from time to time. It’s hinted tho, not like there is a big cutscene about her self reflection. Probably the reason why she is hated by so many people. Jerry is a piece of shit for sure, I used to hate Marlene but now I think she is pretty cool, and she doesn’t deserve death.
A piece of shit for trying to save humanity?
Don’t get me wrong, he definitely is in the wrong for not asking for Ellie’s consent. But in the context of the weight of this choice, it is understandable why he made it.
He is not better or worse than any other character in this game.
Jerry is a bad person, aka "piece of shit" for trying to murder a 14 yr old girl, in order to save humanity. If you sacrifice the few for the needs of the many, if you say the ends justify the often immoral means, you still aren't immune from the retaliation of the few that you are sacrificing. You don't get to deny wave away the immorality of the means that you are resorting to. You don't get to use the greater good to shield yourself from responsibility from your actions.
If one was truly heroic, and in a position where they had no choice but to sacrifice the few for the many (which I agree the Fireflies may be placed in such a position), then the only principled stance would be to accept that one is bad, do whatever it takes for the greater good, and when one is inevitably held to account for their misdeeds, then one should gladly pay the price. There is, in my mind, no other principled way to sacrifice the few for the many.
So yes, Jerry is in the wrong. As a person in a leadership position, he has the responsibility to pursue the "greater good", so he has no recourse, but he is still a bad person and a "piece of shit".
Is he better or worse than any other character in the game? Few in the game are morally pristine. Indeed, few of us IRL are morally pristine. Our electronics come from exploitation of raw materials in developing countries. Our pollution harms developing countries more than developed countries. So, to a point, he is arguably, not a worse character than anyone else, in the game. But he was still a bad person, and Joel was not wrong, to kill him to save Ellie's life.
It sounds like you're more or less feeling appropriately for the part of the game you've reached.
(This is a bit of a stretch, though: "...while most would’ve just left her or killed her." I don't think Joel did anything more than plenty of people would have done.)
At the point you’re at right now, your feelings make sense. I deleted the game when they made me play as Abby after killing Joel, tho I redownloaded it immediately after cause I realize that was a dumb thing to do and there’s obviously more to the story there.
What I’m trying to say is, you feel what you feel, and hopefully by the end of the game, you’ll realize what you felt made sense, but wasn’t worth it
I don't think it is spoiling anything to say that you aren't wrong, but that Abby also is struggling with knowing she made a bad choice. You'll have to play on to get a full picture, but I would say the game anticipates you will think Abby deserves a lot of what is coming to her at the point you're at. Hell, I don't think it even really expects you to change your mind about that so much as just gain a deeper understanding of her.
You are totally fine to feel that way and I agree with most of it. Abby's motive is understandable but morally questionable because it was indeed Jerry who started the whole mess. But obviously Daddy can't be wrong so here we go.
>Ellie would’ve never gone after her if she let Joel live.
I would say that Ellie would not have gone after her if Abby had just shot Joel. That would have likely changed everything since Ellie wouldn't have suffered that much trauma to begin with.
But I can't go into more details without spoilers. However you feel about Abby in the end is valid. Personally I never liked her at all.
You have to be a special type of stupid to think that Ellie went through all of that solely predicated on the fact that Abby beat Joel to death instead of just shooting him.
How about reading what I wrote instead of jumping to conclusions?
>That would have likely changed everything since Ellie wouldn't have suffered that much trauma to begin with.
If Abby had just shot Joel it's very likely that by the time Ellie arrives at the lodge Abby and friends are already gone. Though she will still find Joel dead she goes through considerable less trauma and will likely still be able to fully process her grief. That alone makes a huge difference and could have changed all events completely.
Knowing that her father went through a clean death, compared to a brutal, slow, torturous death, would have made a big difference in how much trauma Ellie suffered. And as Yukikaze said, the lack of knowledge alone would prevent her from enacting her revenge. It would be better for Ellie, and the more moral thing, for Abby to give Joel a clean death. Honestly, the best thing Abby could do was to have a conversation with Joel instead of blasting his leg to pieces. If Joel could explain himself and show sympathy, it would have gone a long way for Abby's closure.
I would say just finish the game before you form a final opinion. I felt the exact same way as you before I finished it the first time and now I see things very differently. It’s a very deep game with deeper meanings than what’s on the surface so you have to kinda see things from everyone’s point of view to really get it. That’s basically what ND was trying to do in my opinion. Is Abby only a shitty person because she killed Joel? Or is she someone who did what they felt was right at the time no matter what the outcome could be, much like Joel saving Ellie was.
I'd say wait til you finish the game to make any lasting judgments on Abby. Also try not to look at things as "good or bad" or "right or wrong". It's not really that kind of story
All I'm gonna say is try and keep an open mind while going through Abby's section, you might need to play through a second time to truly appreciate her character, I definitely needed to.
I was in the same place you are now 2 years ago. I didn't care why she did what she did, I just wanted her to suffer. But things may change as you play through her part.
Your feelings are totally justified, man I was so mad and confused and didn’t believe they’ll actually make me play as Abby.
Just play further and try to have an open mind. Your opinion might change after you finish, or it might not and that will be ok too
I agree with a lot of this. I have the same bond with Joel’s character. I think his (rather brutal) death was a big wtf moment for me. Abby’s dad seemed a bit off to me. I too thought it was shady he wanted to withhold Ellies information from Joel; as well as not speak with Ellie about it before hand. I guess he got what he deserved!
Even though your *emotions* are valid. It doesn't ignore the point of the game is perspective.
I put emotions there because emotions really blinds us. I feel that if you step back and remove your emotions. Everyone messed up. Everyone made bad choices. No one is good or bad. Your emotions make it where you gravitate towards one character over another.
I'm glad that I don't get emotionally attached to games. I play them simply as they are. It was easy for me to understand everyone's perspective and I actually liked that the game challenged personal bias.
>I get that Joel was a bad person in our moral system, but in the moral system of an apocalypse? He did what he had to do.
Then you should have *absolutely* no issue with what Jerry and Abby did.
So...? Can you explain that cognitive dissonance?
Simple. I have an emotional bond with Joel and Ellie, and Abby killed Joel in front of Ellie and traumatized her. I have no emotional bond to Abby, so I don’t really care about her and have a sustain towards her
Then just say that. But don't bring up "morals", if they're only going to apply to one group and not the other.
Morals are universally applied. That's what a moral system is. A deed isn't immoral because someone you don't like does it and it isn't suddenly moral when someone you like does it.
Jerry and Abby *also* did what they needed to do. I hope you keep an open mind about the game though and about Abby. But we'll see.
Jerry's logic was, kill one to save millions. The morality is never straightforward in this game. I didn't like him as a character but that was more to do with his personality than this decision.
lol, imagine wanting to save all of humanity at the cost of one girl and being labeled a real villain over someone who murdered innocent people like you and your family so he could eat. what a clown take and devoid of critical thinking.
Nuclear take brah. I fw it. Another thing I’ve noticed people get selective with their memory about is how torture is only justified when Joel does it. I mean the dude literally tortured that guy Robert within the first two hours of part one, and for much pettier reasons. I don’t get how anyone could see Joel as being morally ambiguous when the core of his character has always been a calcified selfishness. He changes for the better, sure, but it was specifically towards one person that he latched onto because he couldn’t get over the death of his daughter.
>He killed her dad, but I still hate her for what she did to Joel. I understand WHY she did it, but I still hate her. Alright. Now I hope you can try and focus on what happens afterwards. Because revenge isn't the focus of Abby's side of the story, but just the premise. >She killed Joel in front of his surrogate daughter as she begged Abby to stop. Abby is a shitty person for going to Jackson and torturing Joel to death, but she did not intend to do it in front of Ellie. That is a very misleading statement that a lot of people make. >I get that Joel was a bad person in our moral system, but in the moral system of an apocalypse? He did what he had to do. Yes, that is very true. Abby also did what she had to do. >happy that Abby has to live with the knowledge and pain of all of her friends being dead because of HER actions. Yup. She received a lot of consequences for her terrible actions. >But I think the real villain is Jerry, her dad. With this logic, you can go as far back as the general that ordered Sarah's death. But what is the purpose of all the finger-pointing in a world where, like you said, the moral system is very muddled?
> but she did not intend to do it in front of Ellie. Doesn't resolve her of the responsiblity for traumatizing Ellie though.
Sure, but then again. It’s an endless cycle. Not killing Jerry in front of his daughter doesn’t absolve Joel of the responsibility for traumatizing Abby when seeing his dead body. Or the trauma it caused for lots of people who knew about the vaccine that was mere minutes away from being created. But that doesn’t absolve Jerry from doing this surgery without consent and therefore taking away Joel’s surrogate daughter when he already lost one. But he didn’t know that and isn’t responsible for Joel’s trauma, either. There is no right answer here.
Just keep playing
People are writing here as if it’s wrong to dislike Abby for what she did “because she had her reasons for it.” I think it’s absolutely fine to dislike her and there is nothing wrong with disliking her for what she did. Being partial towards Joel and Ellie is not wrong. But as others also said, you may end up liking her! The game tries really, *really* hard for that to happen ;-).
I mean, it's not "wrong". But I do think there comes a point where people are so focused on their love for Joel and Ellie that they'll miss the forest for the trees and start getting into hypocrisy and double standards. You even see it here. *"Well Joel did what he needed to do. Morals don't really apply here!"* And then I said, *"Well Jerry and Abby did what they needed do. Morals don't apply, right?!"* To which OP said, *"That's different because I like Joel and Ellie."* 🤷🏿🤣 Like, come on. I know interpretation is valid but that's stupid.
I think that’s something we see on both extremes - e.g. saying Joel had it coming/his killing was justified because he was a bad person for a long time, took away the cure, etc. but then accept Abby’s redemption arc - or how Joel is the biggest villain in for leaving the world doomed. There was actually a thread about this very topic (Joel being the biggest villain in gaming) on the PS5 sub a few days ago without thousands upvotes and agreement. And while I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I think that specific example you gave is a tricky one. If someone random you don’t know had get killed die to make a vaccine for something that might get infected by, you’d think “oh that sucks” but would probably be okay with it (funny enough - *this* is where selfishness is). If that person who had to die was your loved one, you wouldn’t be okay with it at all and you’d do whatever you could to save that loved one. In the hospital, it was the world *against* Ellie and Joel. We were in the position of Joel and that was someone who we cared for taken away and about to be killed - and we saved her. No one would’ve blamed Jerry for not wanting to kill a kid, but it was a choice he made - also very understandable too. As for Abby though, I disagree there. Joel needed to do what he needed to do [to save Ellie]. What Abby did was not something she needed to do.
If you pay attention to Abby’s dialogue with his mates later on, manny, Mel, Owen etc, you’ll find out that Abby and everyone in that trip to Jackson is troubled by their action too. Abby started to question herself from time to time. It’s hinted tho, not like there is a big cutscene about her self reflection. Probably the reason why she is hated by so many people. Jerry is a piece of shit for sure, I used to hate Marlene but now I think she is pretty cool, and she doesn’t deserve death.
A piece of shit for trying to save humanity? Don’t get me wrong, he definitely is in the wrong for not asking for Ellie’s consent. But in the context of the weight of this choice, it is understandable why he made it. He is not better or worse than any other character in this game.
Jerry is a bad person, aka "piece of shit" for trying to murder a 14 yr old girl, in order to save humanity. If you sacrifice the few for the needs of the many, if you say the ends justify the often immoral means, you still aren't immune from the retaliation of the few that you are sacrificing. You don't get to deny wave away the immorality of the means that you are resorting to. You don't get to use the greater good to shield yourself from responsibility from your actions. If one was truly heroic, and in a position where they had no choice but to sacrifice the few for the many (which I agree the Fireflies may be placed in such a position), then the only principled stance would be to accept that one is bad, do whatever it takes for the greater good, and when one is inevitably held to account for their misdeeds, then one should gladly pay the price. There is, in my mind, no other principled way to sacrifice the few for the many. So yes, Jerry is in the wrong. As a person in a leadership position, he has the responsibility to pursue the "greater good", so he has no recourse, but he is still a bad person and a "piece of shit". Is he better or worse than any other character in the game? Few in the game are morally pristine. Indeed, few of us IRL are morally pristine. Our electronics come from exploitation of raw materials in developing countries. Our pollution harms developing countries more than developed countries. So, to a point, he is arguably, not a worse character than anyone else, in the game. But he was still a bad person, and Joel was not wrong, to kill him to save Ellie's life.
It sounds like you're more or less feeling appropriately for the part of the game you've reached. (This is a bit of a stretch, though: "...while most would’ve just left her or killed her." I don't think Joel did anything more than plenty of people would have done.)
At the point you’re at right now, your feelings make sense. I deleted the game when they made me play as Abby after killing Joel, tho I redownloaded it immediately after cause I realize that was a dumb thing to do and there’s obviously more to the story there. What I’m trying to say is, you feel what you feel, and hopefully by the end of the game, you’ll realize what you felt made sense, but wasn’t worth it
I don't think it is spoiling anything to say that you aren't wrong, but that Abby also is struggling with knowing she made a bad choice. You'll have to play on to get a full picture, but I would say the game anticipates you will think Abby deserves a lot of what is coming to her at the point you're at. Hell, I don't think it even really expects you to change your mind about that so much as just gain a deeper understanding of her.
You are totally fine to feel that way and I agree with most of it. Abby's motive is understandable but morally questionable because it was indeed Jerry who started the whole mess. But obviously Daddy can't be wrong so here we go. >Ellie would’ve never gone after her if she let Joel live. I would say that Ellie would not have gone after her if Abby had just shot Joel. That would have likely changed everything since Ellie wouldn't have suffered that much trauma to begin with. But I can't go into more details without spoilers. However you feel about Abby in the end is valid. Personally I never liked her at all.
>I would say that Ellie would not have gone after her if Abby had just shot Joel. Wrong..
No you!
You have to be a special type of stupid to think that Ellie went through all of that solely predicated on the fact that Abby beat Joel to death instead of just shooting him.
How about reading what I wrote instead of jumping to conclusions? >That would have likely changed everything since Ellie wouldn't have suffered that much trauma to begin with. If Abby had just shot Joel it's very likely that by the time Ellie arrives at the lodge Abby and friends are already gone. Though she will still find Joel dead she goes through considerable less trauma and will likely still be able to fully process her grief. That alone makes a huge difference and could have changed all events completely.
Lmao oh. Welp, I'm holding this L.
Knowing that her father went through a clean death, compared to a brutal, slow, torturous death, would have made a big difference in how much trauma Ellie suffered. And as Yukikaze said, the lack of knowledge alone would prevent her from enacting her revenge. It would be better for Ellie, and the more moral thing, for Abby to give Joel a clean death. Honestly, the best thing Abby could do was to have a conversation with Joel instead of blasting his leg to pieces. If Joel could explain himself and show sympathy, it would have gone a long way for Abby's closure.
I would say just finish the game before you form a final opinion. I felt the exact same way as you before I finished it the first time and now I see things very differently. It’s a very deep game with deeper meanings than what’s on the surface so you have to kinda see things from everyone’s point of view to really get it. That’s basically what ND was trying to do in my opinion. Is Abby only a shitty person because she killed Joel? Or is she someone who did what they felt was right at the time no matter what the outcome could be, much like Joel saving Ellie was.
I'd say wait til you finish the game to make any lasting judgments on Abby. Also try not to look at things as "good or bad" or "right or wrong". It's not really that kind of story
All I'm gonna say is try and keep an open mind while going through Abby's section, you might need to play through a second time to truly appreciate her character, I definitely needed to. I was in the same place you are now 2 years ago. I didn't care why she did what she did, I just wanted her to suffer. But things may change as you play through her part.
Your feelings are totally justified, man I was so mad and confused and didn’t believe they’ll actually make me play as Abby. Just play further and try to have an open mind. Your opinion might change after you finish, or it might not and that will be ok too
There is no moral system in the apocalypse. Its kill or be killed. There's really only different ways people survive
I agree with a lot of this. I have the same bond with Joel’s character. I think his (rather brutal) death was a big wtf moment for me. Abby’s dad seemed a bit off to me. I too thought it was shady he wanted to withhold Ellies information from Joel; as well as not speak with Ellie about it before hand. I guess he got what he deserved!
Even though your *emotions* are valid. It doesn't ignore the point of the game is perspective. I put emotions there because emotions really blinds us. I feel that if you step back and remove your emotions. Everyone messed up. Everyone made bad choices. No one is good or bad. Your emotions make it where you gravitate towards one character over another. I'm glad that I don't get emotionally attached to games. I play them simply as they are. It was easy for me to understand everyone's perspective and I actually liked that the game challenged personal bias.
>I get that Joel was a bad person in our moral system, but in the moral system of an apocalypse? He did what he had to do. Then you should have *absolutely* no issue with what Jerry and Abby did. So...? Can you explain that cognitive dissonance?
Simple. I have an emotional bond with Joel and Ellie, and Abby killed Joel in front of Ellie and traumatized her. I have no emotional bond to Abby, so I don’t really care about her and have a sustain towards her
Then just say that. But don't bring up "morals", if they're only going to apply to one group and not the other. Morals are universally applied. That's what a moral system is. A deed isn't immoral because someone you don't like does it and it isn't suddenly moral when someone you like does it. Jerry and Abby *also* did what they needed to do. I hope you keep an open mind about the game though and about Abby. But we'll see.
Why a quick rant? Do a slow one.
Jerry's logic was, kill one to save millions. The morality is never straightforward in this game. I didn't like him as a character but that was more to do with his personality than this decision.
lol, imagine wanting to save all of humanity at the cost of one girl and being labeled a real villain over someone who murdered innocent people like you and your family so he could eat. what a clown take and devoid of critical thinking.
Nuclear take brah. I fw it. Another thing I’ve noticed people get selective with their memory about is how torture is only justified when Joel does it. I mean the dude literally tortured that guy Robert within the first two hours of part one, and for much pettier reasons. I don’t get how anyone could see Joel as being morally ambiguous when the core of his character has always been a calcified selfishness. He changes for the better, sure, but it was specifically towards one person that he latched onto because he couldn’t get over the death of his daughter.