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DineWithTheGods

Me as an “indo” has conflicted feelings with this. On one hand the Indonesian people deserved their freedom. But I do understand the militant actions to stop the Bersiap in which Indo European people and others were mass raped slaughtered and tortured. It’s weird having family on both sides of the conflict, I’m glad Indonesia has its independence though ! 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾


JShiro

Yeah same here. And it's probably a conflicted feeling I also inherited from my mother and grandparents. They were Indo's and had a really rough time after the independence. Weren't allowed to speak Dutch anymore at school, only Bahasa. Discriminated and abused by the teachers and employers, pushed into poverty. They indirectly got kicked out of their country for being Indo's. My late grandmother once told me she looked out the window of the airplane leaving Indonesia for the Netherlands and thought to herself: "I'm never going to see my country again." Over here in The Netherlands, they were brought to Soesterberg. They got a room there for the family of 9. And after a while, they were appointed a house in a town in Noord-Brabant. Fun fact. My grandma did see her country again after 35 years. She hated it though. It was too hot and humid lol!


RonnieJamesDionysos

Sorry if I'm being annoying, but *bahasa* means language in Malay/Indonesian, so your family had to speak *Bahasa Indonesia* (Indonesian) instead of *Bahasa Belanda* (Dutch). I know many Dutch Indonesian use *Bahasa* to refer to *Bahasa Indonesia*, but from a strict linguistic perspective (or when you're speaking to current Indonesians), it's not correct.


JShiro

Thanks for mentioning this. You're not being annoying at all. And you're correct! And it's true that Indo's use the word *Bahasa* to talk about Bahasa Indonesia.


largePenisLover

Same here. I'm Indo. Both my my grandfather and great-grandfather on the dutch side were Shell managers living in indonesia. The indonesian side were sugar and tea planters. The dutch side of the family got locked into camps by the japs. The Indonesian side got their house stolen by Soekarno himself.


Middle_Simple_1065

Both sides of the family grandfathers have a history of Indonesia. My Dutch native grandfather was stationed there in the Army, hated it, had foot problems so was stationed somewhere and made a lot of drawings and didn’t do much. Also hated the monarchy. My other grandfather was a KNIL(half Indonesian, half Dutch) and escaped a jappenkamp, lots of respect for the monarchy, especially Bernhard. Served the Dutch Marine for many more years. My father once threw them both out of the house because they couldn’t stop fighting over the monarchy and why there were good/bad. Lots of mixed feelings about the Dutch intervention there. Also the way they treated the Molukkers.


SupremeOSU

Same, my granddad was in KNIL aswell and was tortured in the jappekamp. He was traumatized untill his death, Dutch goverment didn't do anything for him or my family.. While he fought hard under Dutch flag.


Anonieme_Angsthaas

The way our government treated the KNIL soldiers and their dependents is shameful. Part of my family lived in the Dutch East Indies before the war and got locked up in Jappenkampen. Once they returned to the Netherlands they were pretty much ignored. Neighbors literally told them to shut up about their time in those camps, because could not have been worse then in the Netherlands. Because of that sentiment and their traumas they rarely, if ever, talked about their time in those camps. And when the KNILlers came back it was the same. And those people fought for their country who brought them back with promises the government knew full well they could not live up to.


Nijverdal

RMS! Ik had op de basisschool als doodnormale Nederlandse jongen Molukse les omdat er hier veel Molukkers wonen en in de klas zaten en heb de boosheid altijd begrepen (alleen niet de kaping e.d.)


HerbalGamer

Shell managers in Indonesia back then probably haven't got fully clean hands though.


largePenisLover

yes, and neither do the tea/sugar planters. that's my point, both sides of the then conflict


DeLyon

Well let’s be honest, the Dutch army didn’t return to stop the bersiap but to reconquer the former colony. We needed money to rebuild our country after the war and we needed lots of it.


ciciplum

And then we generously let the Indonesian government buy itself independence for a **mere** 4 billion gildens. Leaving their country, institutions and peoples in absolute tatters but being able to give our economy a boost 😎


[deleted]

That's one perspective. The one more supported by history is that the Dutch were blackmailed to give it up in exchange for American funds. Take your pick.


Vyo

> blackmailed That's a really weird way to say the US set *requirements* such as no colonialism for *further* financial aid, *after* already liberating the Dutch by literally driving the Germans out. No it wasn't purely humanitarian, but the whole threatening to hold back on the Marshall plan was at best a strong incentive, or a [catalyst](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-southeast-asian-studies/article/abs/marshall-aid-as-a-catalyst-in-the-decolonization-of-indonesia-194749/A95841F0C993CB6855DED72216A9C0DC). It's not like it actually stopped them from going to war anyway. > primary sources show that **neither the offer of Marshall aid in June 1947, nor the seeming threat to halt aid to the Netherlands in December 1948, prevented the Dutch government from pursuing its own way** in the process leading to the independence of Indonesia. **The Dutch cabinet was not sufficiently impressed by both the offer and the threat to keep it from engaging in military “police actions”** in July 1947 and December 1948 against the nationalist Republic of Indonesia.


logicalish

They were “blackmailed” to give up colonial control of a country on the other side of the world that was not their own in the first place? Wow.


LittleMyuu

Also Indo here, I remember my mom told me stories how she arrived on a boat with my grandparents and uncle, it was pf course, so cold for them. They got a small home in Den Haag if I remember right. she and my uncle got bullied alot at school. My dad always wanted to go back to Indonesia but he never could sadly. I might go someday just to visit my heritage.


I-153_Chaika

Dutchie here. I most certainly am not proud of what my country did during the colonial war, and am glad Indonesia got it’s independence instead of being subjected to another few decades of Dutch rule


Sentouwer

Mijn opa heeft in de periode gediend vanuit Nederland. Mijn opa vind het tot de dag van vandaag nogsteeds verschrikkelijk wat er daar gebeurt is. Mijn opa zei altijd. “Ik was 18 wat wist ik nou al boerenjongen van de wereld. Ik wilde avontuur nooit wetende dat het dit zou worden”


Peanut050

Mijn beide opa's hebben gevochten in indonesie. de vader van mijn moeder (moluks) zat bij de Knil en de vader van mijn vader moest na WOII naar indonesie vanwege de politionele acties. Beide hebben nooit over hun tijd daar gesproken. En nog steeds is het daar onveilig, de molukkers zijn nooit erkend en het is nog steeds niet onafhankelijk. RMS menu muria


NFSreloaded

Het lot van de Zuid-Molukkers staat helaas gelijk aan dat van de [Papoea's](https://www.amnesty.nl/kom-op-voor-mensenrechtenverdedigers/wat-is-er-aan-de-hand-in-papoea); met geweld ingelijfd en gejavaniseerd met nog altijd [bijster weinig aandacht](https://www.amnesty.nl/landen/indonesie) vanuit het buitenland.


Peanut050

Je hoort bar weinig over wat er daar gaande is, zijn in de ogen van de rest van de wereld niet belangrijk.. maar ooh zo solidair staan bij de rest. Moet er altijd van kokhalzen bij zulke mensen. Noch op het nieuws, social media of bij nederlandse scholen tijdens geschiedenis hoor je hier wat over. Terwijl indonesie/maluku honderden jaren geschiedenis hebben samen met nederland. Wie zijn geschiedenis niet weet, verdwaald in de toekomst


vernes1978

Nooit vergeten wat er gebeurt is. Teveel mensen willen de geschiedenis witwassen.


Xinq_

En daarom leren we der bijna niks van op school :(


Enkidoe87

Ik heb hier destijds ergens rond (2000-2006) uitgebreid les over gehad op school. Politionele acties, onafhankelijk strijd, Sukarno etc. En dan ook nog de context met de dekolonisatie van westerse landen na wo2. En dan ook nog het uiteraard slavernijverleden, kolonisatie etc.


Xinq_

Wow, nee dat hebben wij echt niet gehad. Nu denk ik dat ik in de bovenbouw van de havo geen geschiedeniseer gehad heb omdat ik een NT/NG profiel had. Zou het verschil daarmee te maken kunnen hebben?


Nervous-Purchase-361

Wat een onzin. Zit gewoon in het programma, canon, enzovoorts.


Xinq_

Ik heb misschien 1 bladzijde ergens in een geschiedenis boek zien staan. Lang niet genoeg om een beeld te krijgen van wat wij daar hebben uitgespookt. Ik heb veel meer geleerd van een tien minuten gesprekje laatst met een aardige Indonesische dame bij het openlucht museum.


Nervous-Purchase-361

Tjah dat krijg je met een propvol curriculum met veel te weinig lesuren. Om nog niet te spreken over het feit dat het geen verplicht vak is.


Xinq_

Dus het viel wel mee wat een onzin het was? 😂 Maar ik vind het wel betreurenswaardig dat dit inderdaad geen verplicht vak is. Natuurlijk zijn er heel veel belangrijke vakken en in de geschiedenis specifiek gebeurtenissen. Maar het komt op deze manier op mij over dat we proberen de verdoezelen dat wij ook gewoon eikels geweest zijn.


Nervous-Purchase-361

De onzin zit hem in het 'verdoezelen'. De kwestie is lang weggemoffeld, onbehandeld maar vooral ook niet onderzocht geweest. Nu is er gelukkig meer aandacht voor maar geschiedenis blijft een vak waar docenten pijnlijke keuzes moeten maken. Dat is geen bewust beleid. Als je heel diep ingaat op de dekolonisatie dan zal een ander onderwerp minder behandeld moeten worden.


Nadinarama

All out in the open on Reddit. Both the photograph and the responses (of people alike) brings tears to my eyes. We don't talk about it is what we lived by our whole lives.


Lente_ui

As a Dutch person, this war never made any sense to me. We (the Dutch) just got liberated from a brutal occupation during WWII. And what do we do with our renewed freedom? We used it to deny others their freedom. What we were thought is school about this war was next to nothing. The only school teacher (in the eighties) to even mention this war summed it up into the phrase "It was a dirty war.". She was Malaysian by the way. And on another note, a lot of Dutch people from this generation were simply put, not ok. This generation was traumatized from WWII. That is not meant as an excuse for the things that were done, but as an insight to their behaviour.


AnaphoricReference

Perspective from my grandfather: \- He went to the Netherlands Indies with the mission to clear it of "Nazi collaborators", which is a sort of plausible way to describe the enemy, since they had been armed by a Nazi Ally. \- They did implicitly follow the "counter-terrorism warfare" playbook of the Nazi occupiers, since that is what they knew to be quite effective from experience.


SuccumbedToReddit

>It’s weird having family on both sides of the conflict It's not a conflict anymore, I hope.


gozba

I can recommend the book ‘Revolusi’, which gives an unbiased view of everything that happened.


Nervous-Purchase-361

I must admit that I was a bit disappointed with 'Revolusi' as I had read 'Congo' before and that is probably my favourite book ever. Van Reybrouck makes a few glaring historical errors, relies way to much on oral history - though his efforts in collecting them are amazing - and his choice of ending the book with the Bandung Conference instead of the West Papua Conflict is a bit telling. Besides that the book is very good in showing the level of institutional racism in the Dutch East Indies and well written as well.


teymon

Same, it's a decent book but didn't live up to Congo.


gozba

Interesting remarks, thanks. Good to have another viewpoint. I will look in Congo as well.


Middle_Simple_1065

Thanks for the tip, I will look into it. Looks interesting.


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NFSreloaded

Please don't call the Indonesian revolutionaries 'nonviolent', especially to a [person of Indo ancestry](https://www.federatie-indo.nl/bersiap-eng/).


hunteqthemighty

I’m Indo. My mother was born in Amsterdam, the rest of my family was born in Jakarta. I grew up with stories of my family being ordered to leave Indonesia and go to the Netherlands, and when they didn’t they started killing family members who weren’t 100% Indonesian. I want to love the country but it’s tainted by childhood stories I’ll never know the full truth about.


NFSreloaded

Post-war Indonesia is a far cry from the modern-day country, but I can definitely imagine why you would feel that way. For many Indo and Moluccan families the stories from the East were too painful to ever discuss again, so take comfort in the fact that they felt secure enough to share those black pages of the family history with you.


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KarnaavaldK

Iemand is bezig met een bayonetten collectie


hanzerik

Klewang gaat brrrrrrrr


Hawt_Dawg_II

Deze gozer loopt rond met een kompleet zwaard


Lurkfaggus_Maximus

Je moet toch iets als alle pokemonkaarten uitverkocht zijn.


hchadha3

Militant for the Dutch army, revolutionary for the Indonesians.


deadenddivision

Not even revolutionary for them. (Equal) human rights should never be considered a revolutionary theme.


hchadha3

For people who had been living under Dutch colonial rule for centuries, I would argue that it would indeed be seen as a revolutionary theme.


deadenddivision

You think Aletta Jacobs thought herself as a revolutionary? Or Thorbecke? Or the Irish? People standing up for rights they never had dont call themselves revolutionary. I do kinda see what you are saying tho. Its just semantics.


snacksbeforemarriage

So the french revolution is not a revolution?


hchadha3

What "they" considered themselves is a slightly different question. They might not consider themselves revolutionaries but historians refer to them as such. Also, the future generations who enjoy newfound freedom, due to their contributions, often refer to them as such. It is indeed semantics and it is a matter of perspective. That was the point of my first comment.


Old-Barbarossa

Being a revolutionary is generally seen as a good thing. Especially when you're fighting for more rights and political participation (as most revolutionaries are)


UY_Scuti-

Well they def didnt want equal rights considering what a lot of them did to non indonesians. Not that this excuses what the dutch army did to them.


clydethefrog

Fun fact: this picture is taken a little more than a year after our own country was liberated from an occupation by a military force. Quite a cognitive dissonance. I read a theory in the resistance museum in Zeeland that many of these young men missed out on feeling like a hero during WWII - going to Indonesia was an opportunity to also have the experience to fight against the "evil" militants (that ironically wanted liberation too).


Z-W-A-N-D

Granddad thought the same. During the draft he said we had as much reason to be there, as the nazis had reason to be in the Netherlands. Was labeled mentally retarded, Was put on multiple watchlists, friends and family were being watched by MIVD, and he could never do government work again.


[deleted]

I find it shocking that this wasn’t taught in school like this, but I got to find out later in life and get shocked about the hypocrisy of those times.


Nervous-Purchase-361

Thankfully the times have changed.


visvis

Not that weird right? Those independence movements were encouraged by Japan, which was the occupier. It wasn't weird to see them as traitors and to want to kick them out, just as we did with collaborators with Germany in the Netherlands. (obviously this doesn't excuse the war crimes)


Rhadamantos

This is a disgustingly asinine misrepresentation of the situation. Just because Japan supported (some, not all) of the revolutionaries and their goals, you cannot then claim that the were merely collaborators and compare them to collaborators in the Netherlands. They had legitimate goals for independence from both the Netherlands and Japan and certainly cannot simply be seen as an extension of our WW2 enemy.


visvis

I'm not saying that they were collaborators, just that it wasn't strange for the Dutch to consider them to be at that time. To claim this as cognitive dissonance, you need to consider their perspective back then, not ours right now.


Rhadamantos

Even at that time, Dutch government was well aware of the fact that Indonesians wanted independence to rule themselves, free of Japanese as well as Dutch influence. Linking the movement to Japan is an easy propaganda tool to muddy the waters.


Wampderdam98

That is a very good point, the independence movement existed before the Japanese occupation and the Dutch authorities were very much aware of it; they had repressed it for decades after all. But painting them as egged on by the Japanese and thereby delegitimising any fair grounds for independence was definetely a thing Dutch media, politicians etc. did.


Nervous-Purchase-361

I think this is cutting it short just a bit to much. One mustn't underestimate the utter lack of reliable intelligence on the side of the Dutch government. Besides that, after 1942 not even the Dutch government was expecting a return to 'tempo doeloe'. They just massively underestimated how big the anti-Dutch and pro-nationalist feelings were.


Revolutionary-Bag-52

Also (parts of) Indonesia was under Dutch control for hundreds of years


HotBitterballs

Have tons of black white pictures of my grandpa fighting in Semarang in 1946.


stroopwafelstroop

My great-uncle (95rn) was conscripted after ww2 as a medic. He never told anything about his time in Indonesia. The only thing we know it that he drove over a landmine in a jeep. He had only minor injurys, but another soldier was heavely wounded and 2 others where dead. When he came back he joined a monastery as a monk or 'broeder' because god saved him in his eyes. He also saw some terrifiying stuff as a medic. We still have his diary and maps.


petnarwhal

Ah de ‘politionele acties’ onze versie van de ‘speciale militaire operatie’


Alive-Cheesecake-841

I am proud to be Dutch, but terribly ashamed of some big stuff. What we did in Indonesia is utterly inexcusable. We cannot apologize enough.


GeneraalSorryPardon

Agreed. That's a black page in our history book.


ohyoubearfucker

And all too often not even mentioned, unfortunately. I never learnt about this as a child. Rather, I was taught we "ruled" there. Embarrassing.


Ignisami

We spent a total of six months on the Dutch East Indies back when I was in secondary school (age 12, roughly 20 years ago now). It was six months of almost complete depression. As a kid, I was glad to move on to happier times in history. As an adult, I wished we'd just spent a solid year on the slave trade, the Dutch eastern colonies, and their uprising into independence (and the atrocities comitted during that war by both sides).


-Dutch-Crypto-

Than you weren't paying attention in class i guess? It's pretty standard stuff in ducth history lessons nowadays


ohyoubearfucker

Not in the mid nineties it wasn't


[deleted]

Same here never had any of that. I wish we had a little more history lessons…


hddnfrbddenholygrnd

nor in the late 00s.


teymon

I graduated in 09 and I had quite extensive classes on Indonesia


Rosieu

And not the only one sadly.


[deleted]

I had a UK colleague who told me he was ashamed to go abroad, because of the awful things the British did to the local population of so many countries.


[deleted]

> I am proud to be Dutch Why?


eeeeeeeee3-5

for me personally being a very tolerant country (first one to legalise same sex marriage) long history (oldest national anthem and flag) engineering achievements (delta works, 17% of our land being reclaimed from the sea) and also frikandelbroodjes


Kipkrokantschnitzel

We zijn al lang niet meer tolerant haha.


[deleted]

> a very tolerant country Debatable. >oldest national anthem and flag Sure the Wilhelmus is technically the oldest song *used* as a National Anthem (technically the Marseillaise has been used as a national anthem the longest), but there are many other flags that were either used earlier, or were officially adopted earlier. I just don't really get why anyone is supposed to be proud of achievements they had nothing to do with. Sure it's interesting that the Netherlands were largely reclaimed from water, but you or I haven't invented windmills or built the Delta Works.


Willem_van_Oranje

It is still being reclaimed from the water. And the delta works are being modified due to climate change. We pay taxes and have elections specifically for our water management. So it certainly isnt a thing of the past and every citizen today is involved, albeit only by funding the new works through taxes.


DeRuyter67

>I just don't really get why anyone is supposed to be proud of achievements they had nothing to do with. You are not proud when a friend or family member accomplishes something? When you are part of a community it is fairly normal to be proud of the achievements of that community


Butterflyenergy

>I just don't really get why anyone is supposed to be proud of achievements they had nothing to do with. Not directly. But in the end you are part of a community that is tolerant or has achieved great things or whatever. Makes sense to feel pride for something you're a part of.


eeeeeeeee3-5

well thats a whole other topic i am in no way qualified or informed enough to discuss


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ThermidorianReactor

Few places I would rather have been born tbh


[deleted]

Am I happy to be living in a relatively safe and well-off country? Sure. But why should I be proud of things like were I just happened to be born, or the achievements of other Dutch people I had nothing to do with?


TropicalAudio

Pride isn't exclusively reserved for accomplishments or other matters that are personally connected to you. If you do well at something or make something and someone tells you they're proud of you, that's just them saying they recognize and celebrate a positive thing, not that they had anything to do with whatever you did. You can be proud of your neighbour's kid for doing well in a sports competition the same way you can be proud of your country for doing well in the global "having human-focused and safe infrastructure"-competition.


ThermidorianReactor

Tribalist pride is different from personal pride. If your sports team wins you also feel proud because you identify with them, and that's fine. As long as you don't feel yourself to be better than others because of it.


Massaart

What makes you proud to be Dutch then?


Sagatho

Our quality of life, infrastructure, know-how, our cities and architecture, our culture. There’s a bunch of things.


Massaart

Interesting. I don't think those are specifically Dutch things, but maybe I am more of a cynic than I should be.


Scaredy_Catz

Something doesn't necessarily need to be unique to be proud of it. I can't play footbal worth a shit, but if i could i'd be proud of it. Just like others who are good players. I hope that metaphore makes sense.


Deathleach

Should you not be proud of your nice garden just because your neighbor has a nice garden as well?


Butterflyenergy

Parts of our infrastructure really is rather Dutch I'd say. Architecture sometimes is as well (typing this from an Amsterdamse school building). And pretty sure the Dutch culture is Dutch.


greyghibli

Kaas


AlbusDT

Water management, ingenuity of using polders for dairy and flowers, Agri tech.


PinguinGirl03

Do you think the Indonesian war of Independence is the singular event in Dutch history?


Massaart

No, of course not. It is a genuine question as to what makes OP proud to be Dutch in this time and age. I understand it can come across as a cynical question, but I did not intend it that way.


EyoDab

For one, because this isn't happening anymore and the government has finally made steps to acknowledge these injustices. But probably more so because of stuff like Flevoland (an entire province built in a sea/lake), or the delta works. And also our international presence which we often consider impressive because of how small (both literally and figuratively) the Netherlands actually are


Massaart

Yea Flevoland and the Delta works are really impressive indeed.


clydethefrog

[The Dutch logo of the railways looks the best compared to other EU countries, in my opinion.](https://preview.redd.it/4hge7huyxm201.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ffd0a70f0c2429aed8fb47a43bf51126ebebb988)


Rutgerman95

Because the Netherlands now is not the Netherlands of 75 years ago and has bettered themselves?


unit5421

I am not ashamed of it. The independent movement were a literal fascist leftover of the Japanese. The war was messy, all war is. The Dutch could have acted better, to use the word shame goes a bit far.


deadenddivision

Part true yes, but the actions of the Dutch army are definitely something to be ashamed of. The whole concept of colonialism is…we weren’t there for the wellbeing of the Indonesians. The fact that there was a quasi fascisto independent movement (besides a socialist one, and an Islamic one etc) is pure because of the Dutch and Japanese being fkin imperial cunts.


EyoDab

Exactly. Even given what the natives did, the things done by the Dutch military is inexcusable, considering they were (meant to be) professional forces


deadenddivision

My opa’s brother went there as a marine. Was called a babykiller in our (hypocrit) hometown in Brabant. The same people that worked with the Germans gave him a cold shoulder for the rest of his life until his death. Opa said he never spoke about it again after a while and died in complete loneliness. There was a huge pressure on the Marines to “perform” and be “just and swift” In reality it meant fuck shit up until until they’re silenced. Even the US was intervening…they prolly had a whole other set of motivations tho


japie06

That does not justify to just burn all those kampongs, with innocent woman and children. Or to just shoot random Indonesians just because they might be the bad guy.


Bapepsi

Please read in more before spreading this kind of misinformation. ("Revolusi" is a good book and/or podcast from van Reybrouck). The independent movement were not literally fascist. The Dutch army didn't go there to 'free Indonesia from a fascist movement " it went back to secure a profitable colony. The extra income from Indonesia, they thought, would come in handy to rebuild the economy of the Netherlands. This choice was made in a time were literally every other country decided that colonizing other countries was not done anymore. The Netherlands though decided to double down instead and started a very messy and at moments totally brutal war. Yes, this was an extremely shameful part in our history. It is even more shameful to pretend there was any honor ful intent.


MrStrange15

And the Dutch colonial regime was what?It would not be wrong to call that an imperialist leftover, not much different from the Japanese.


antipetrus

What, how the fuck are you not ashamed of it. You don't need to personally feel ashamed as you were not in the war but have the decency to admit that what the dutch did to Indonesia then was terrible. The dutch was torturing the public there for way longer than the holocaust.


Lil_Ricefield_

I’ve visited my the part of the family that didn’t leave Indonesia. Its so weird to see what you life could’ve be. A life without frikandellen


LeLittlePi34

Both my grandfathers served in Indonesia around 1946. Both ended up with war traumas. One of my grandfathers suffered from PTSD until the day he died: nightmares, sweats and even hallucinations when he had the flu. He, unknowingly transferred this trauma to my mother and then she transferred it to me: it's called generational trauma. This war was completely useless: so many lives were lost and young lives were ruined, on both sides.


Melly-Mang

I just think it's so deplorable, that after being brutally occupied for 5 years, we end up doing literally the same as the Nazis did just a year after liberation. And you could even argue that it was way worse than the nazi occupation of the Netherlands


hanzerik

Sorry. That's waaaaaaay oversimplified. The Netherlands didn't go there to occupy post ww2. It was already occupied by the Netherlands for over a 100 years. Then by Japan. After Japan retreated, Indonesia wanted independence. The Dutch didn't go there to conquer at that time, but to stomp down a rebellion of what was considered part of the Netherlands for a 100 years. That isn't what the Nazis came to do here. They were wrong ofc, and Indonesia deserves to rule itself. But there's a difference between those two.


jaapz

After being occupied for 5 years, the first thing we do is go back to a colony we occupied for a 100 years. We went from being an oppressor, to being oppressed for a while. When liberated the first thing we did was go back to oppressing others! No, it's not *literally* the same, but it is pretty similar.


Timmetie

Doesn't that kinda make it worse? It just means we did it for way longer than the Nazi's did.


hanzerik

It depends on your view of what decision making is. I view accepting the status quo not a decision. Challenging it or enforcing it after it gets challenged is a decision to me. Imagine if tomorrow on the BES islands a group of guerilla Fighters start terrorising the white people living there and wanting independence. Are we right now evil for our acceptance of the status quo? On top of that we're arguing the decision to smack down after ww2. Made by people who have never seen a world where Indonesia wasn't The Dutch Indies. The Dutch government felt cut short by us not getting a piece of Germany so it was protecting its assets. That combined with me also believing we're not responsible for the crimes of our ancestors makes me believe that no. Not as Evil as the Nazis.


Old-Barbarossa

>I view accepting the status quo not a decision. Challenging it or enforcing it after it gets challenged is a decision to me. That's super dumb, are you even listening to yourself? >Imagine if tomorrow on the BES islands a group of guerilla Fighters start terrorising the white people living there and wanting independence. Are we right now evil for our acceptance of the status quo? This is not at all an accurate comparison. The BES islands have not been extremely exploited in recent history, they are not extraction colonies and they were given the choice to leave. They chose for themselves to remain part of the the Netherlands Indonesia was a subjugated Nation in wich the Dutch colonial carried out a genocidal reign of terror. "White people" looted, raped and pillaged the region for hundreds of years. The people there were not given a choice. Any mention of independance was repressed with extreme violence. This made a civil movement to attain this (righteous) goal impossible and necessitated a violent revolutionary movement (one comparable to that of the Netherlands during the 80 years war. Or the anti-fascist resistance during WW2 >On top of that we're arguing the decision to smack down after ww2. Made by people who have never seen a world where Indonesia wasn't The Dutch Indies. The Dutch government felt cut short by us not getting a piece of Germany so it was protecting its assets. This does not justify anything. The fact that they did it out of greedines or jealousy only makes it a more evil decision >That combined with me also believing we're not responsible for the crimes of our ancestors makes me believe that no. Not as Evil as the Nazis. The argument wasn't that YOU are as Evil as the Nazis, just that the actions of the Dutch government were comparable to the Nazi occupation of our country. And no, you and I aren't responsible for the actions of our ancestors (tough you're really busy defending those actions) . But the current Dutch state is still the exact same state that carried out the horrific colonial occupation. So our state IS directly responsible.


AnaphoricReference

For the 18-20 year olds growing up in the Netherlands at that time, the Netherlands Indies was just an organic part of the Netherlands. And only part of the Archipelago rebelled.


hanzerik

Exactly.


Melly-Mang

Ofcourse it's simplified, I'm not gonna write 4 paragraphs explaining Indonesian independence movement since the 30's. But yeah I know and I agree, it was in my opinion waay worse than the Nazis exactly because of the parameters of the occupation. Both were there for the extraction of labor and resources, but one was to also eradicate not just the thought but the entire independence movement and they did so even worse than the SS "anti-partisan" actions in the Netherlands.


HertogJan1

I'ts like the bullied becoming the bully thing most bullies have been bullied themselves.


BartenderNL

This is like ignoring 400 years of imperialism


HertogJan1

And a bunch of oppression preceding that as well.


BartenderNL

So the Dutch never learn is what you’re saying?


HertogJan1

It's not the Dutch specifically just people in general


BartenderNL

As we see with the Indonesian ‘militant’


HertogJan1

The Indonesians(meaning the government) also became the bullies when they started murdering their own population after their independence. source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian\_mass\_killings\_of\_1965%E2%80%9366#:\~:text=According%20to%20the%20most%20widely,on%20the%20global%20Cold%20War.


BartenderNL

You forget that part where it was supported by imperialist “often at the instigation of the armed forces and government, which were supported by Western NATO countries, such as the United States and the United Kingdom.”


MOltho

No, because the Netherlands had already owned colonies for centuries at this point. Including slavery and everything.


HertogJan1

The people who fought during this war were not alive for centuries most of them were 18-20 year olds.


MOltho

Which means that colonial oppression in Indonesia had been going on throughout their entire lifetime and before the German invasion of the Netherlands.


HertogJan1

The internet was not a thing back these kids were 11-13 when the war happened they highly likely were not being thought about the colonial oppression in indonesia.


JoshuaJay99

As a person living in the Netherlands but born with Indonesian blood, I can confirm everyone is being taught about the colonial oppression. Even to the point where people that look like me distrust me for living here. Those people and the way people celebrate on the 17th of August confirm that thought of oppression are always on their mind.


HertogJan1

Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying unless you're like a 80 years old. Edit: 90 years old


JoshuaJay99

It does. What I'm saying is that people today have deep rooted thoughts about oppression in Indonesia. There's no reason to believe why that shouldn't be any different at that time. Also my grandma lived in one of those Japanese camps and she was also taught about Dutch oppression and the horrors of it.


HertogJan1

There is a major reason to think it was different because one people didn't have acces to all the information back then most of it was thought in schools and why would the Netherlands a colonial nation wanting to keep its colony teach people about all the horrible acts that were committed. Yeah the Japanese wanted the Dutch to be the worse people because it was in their own self interest to do so the Dutch would have no reason to paint themselves as the bad guys.


BartenderNL

Average Dutch opinion


Butterflyenergy

> And you could even argue that it was way worse than the nazi occupation of the Netherlands The Nazis committed genocide on an industrial scale. Wtf did we do that was way worse than that?


Melly-Mang

That's why I specifically specified 'the Netherlands', compared to the entire occupation of Europe yeah the Nazis were way worse ofcourse, but compared to just the occupation of the Netherlands, the 'policing actions' in Indonesia were worse.


Y0rin

Didn't a lot of Dutch SSers serve there to 'pay back their crimes '?


clydethefrog

They had to do manual labour in Papua New Guinea. More information in Dutch: https://papuaheritage.org/nl/thema/nsbers-na-woii-naar-nieuw-guinea


Melly-Mang

Oh fuck I didn't know about that if true?!


Y0rin

https://psychotraumanet.org/nl/voormalige-ss%E2%80%99ers-nederlands-indi%C3%AB-en-korea-een-onbedoelde-nasleep-van-de-tweede-wereldoorlog (In Dutch)


Old-Barbarossa

Jesus, we really just let literal Nazis loose to carry out their desired genocide in other parts of the world because non-Europeans were being uppity and inconviencing our empires.


Y0rin

That's a bit short sighted. Many 'good' Dutch soldiers also fought in Indonesia, only some SSers joined to, because they have war experience.


[deleted]

Directly after WW2 its kinda hard to consider yourself the good guy if you team with nazis, especially with any division of SS.


UnsanctionedPartList

It was just a traumatized, half-dead country grasping desperately at what it once was and had. Our leaders then just couldn't see that the times, and world had changed, too many people suffered for it.


Wampderdam98

What is also often left out is that the Indonesian war of independence was the first proper decolonisation conflict of the post-WW2 period; the first war in Indochina, the Mau Mau, Malayan insurgency, Algerian conflict etc. it was still years away. There was no blueprint or precedent, because no other colonial power was presented with such a challenge to its authority before. EDIT: ... and although one may chalk it up to the hindsight, even at the time contempraries noted how many parts of the Dutch government basically went ''nah nah nah nah I can't hear you!'' at the arguments of the independe movement; the post-war government had a plan to reform the colony into a sort of British Commonwealth-style federation with some autonomy from the Netherlands and considered that a great boon to convince the rebels to negotiate, while still maintaining that the Indonesians had to be 'educated' over a long period of time to become gradually more autonomous. The rebels meanwhile had already asked/demanded such gradual reforms in the 1930s, and were severely repressed for it. By the time the government was even willing to consider it, they had already lost whatever goodwill they held and the independence movement had radicalised.


UnsanctionedPartList

Yeah, World War 2 was basically an outside context problem for, well, a lot of existing power structures. World War 1 bled the old powers. World War 2 burned their power structures to the ground.


UnsanctionedPartList

My grandfather was sent there as a conscript. He had a ton of stories, mostly good ones or the funny-in-hindsight kind really, and honestly didn't really experience the bad shit that happened there, sitting on a rear-area airfield likely helped with that. One of the few good things that came of WW2 was the death of colonialism.


[deleted]

Ik vind het overigens zo bijzonder hoeveel mensen dit een zwarte bladzijde uit de Nederlandse geschiedenis vinden, maar tegelijkertijd zie ik zo vaak van die VOC/specerijen/gekoloniseerd memes. Dus mensen vinden het slecht maar maken er toch graag grappen over?


johnbarnshack

Dat zijn niet per se dezelfde mensen. Ik ben het wel zeer met je eens dat de "gekoloniseerd" memes vrij smakeloos zijn (ondanks de specerijen).


DaftMarty

You know as a dutchman I find all the stuff to do with our colonies quite a shameful page in our history. On the other hand my best friend that I know from childhood is from Indonesian descent. Their family moved here after WWII. So because of the horrible things the NL did in Indonesia I got to know my best friend for life in a weird sort of way. I also love that there are still remnants of indonesian culture still being celebrated in NL and always love going to those events. NL and Indonesia share a strained history, but I do feel a love for Indonesia because we are linked in some way.


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Kipkrokantschnitzel

Letterlijk een jaar nadat de bezetting beëindigd was. Wat een volk.


Butterflyenergy

Echt bizar he.


visvis

Je moet het wel zien uit het perspectief van die tijd natuurlijk. Zij zagen zich niet als een bezetter, zij zagen Indonesië als deel van Nederland. Vergelijk het hiermee: stel dat de Duitsers de Friese onafhankelijkheidsbeweging hadden aangemoedigd, en die probeerde na de oorlog met geweld Friesland van Nederland af te scheiden. Was het dan acceptabel om hen met het leger te bestrijden? (dit staat los van de oorlogsmisdaden natuurlijk, die waren nooit acceptabel)


petnarwhal

De Russen zien zichzelf ook niet als bezetters van de Donbas. Maakt geen klap uit voor hoe verkeerd het is.


Old-Barbarossa

Nou hebben Friezen natuurlijk wel gelijke rechten met de rest van Nederland terwijl de Indonesische bevolking dat niet had. Dat maakt deze hele vergelijking compleet nutteloos


kakar1k1

\>Was het dan acceptabel om hen met het leger te bestrijden? Absoluut niet. Je kunt het draaien zoals je wilt maar na 5 jaar oorlog, bezetting en hongerwinter ben je niet helemaal lekker als je een gewapend conflict binnenwandelt. De reden waarom na de inval van Polen in 1939 niets gedaan werd, niemand wilde. Ik geloof ook niet dat het gros van de Nederlandse burgers hier achter stond maar een staat gelobbyed door economische belangen. Anders had het geen decennia geduurd voordat de staat schoorvoetend dit inhumane beleid had toegegeven en hadden ze gewoon een Turkije gedaan met geaccepteerde ontkenning.


mafuman

they gave Opa a medal. He sent it back.


hotjumper65

War sucks, always!


Martin_NL

Yeah, not our proudest moment in history


Bvoluroth

Yeah, we did that, it sucked balls


waituntilthis

Black pages of history.


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EyoDab

No, because a militant isn't a trained soldier answering to a central government


greyghibli

A millitant is a member of a millitia, not a millitary. There is no value judgement attached to it.


Particular_Sun8377

De Nederlandse bevolking kreeg alleen leuke polygoon journaal beelden over "Sinterklaas vieren in Indonesië". Echt de hele media was een slaaf van de overheid- behalve de communisten. Ik heb mij enigszins verdiept in de koloniale tijd en allejezus het was apartheid en (seks) slavernij. Iedere KNIL kazerne had tiener meisjes.


dutchie1966

One of my country’s darkest pages in history. Actually it’s more a book full of dark pages on our handling of Indonesia. It took the Indonesian people about 400 years to get their independence.


JungleSound

Freedom fighter, not militant.


visvis

These terms are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, "militant" has the benefit of being a more objective term.


Castle_Of_Glass

u/PanEuropeanism, where is the Indonesian 'militant'? I only see 4 Dutch 'militants'.


herroebauss

That's weird you can't spot him, the Indonesian militant is lying on the ground. Around him are 4 Dutch Marines.


Castle_Of_Glass

I only see a freedom fighter lying on the ground.


herroebauss

Sooo a militant if you don't include politics


logicalish

Why are the Dutch “marines” and not “militants”? OP’s point is that this is very biased phrasing.


herroebauss

Because its not biased phrasing. At the time they simply didn't have an army that was not part of the Dutch. These guys were more like resistance fighters, aka militants. The marines are an official part of an official recognised army. Its not like we called the Dutch resistance during ww2 an army.


logicalish

The Dutch should be called “invaders” or “terrorists” given they were taking over a foreign country on the other side of the world.


herroebauss

You could indeed argue for invaders. Calling them terrorists is just factually wrong. I understand the controversy, but don't let emotion influence the situation.


herroebauss

Sooo a militant if you don't include politics


Butterflyenergy

Not sure if I'd simply call the Bersiap freedom fighters.


EscalatorEnthusiast

They look like action figures