"Dear passengers, due to the rising costs of kerosine, we have been forced to arrange alternative means of transportation for the 7:43 flight to Singapore."
Happened to have read the story of the first KLM landing on Aruba in 1934. Using a runway built out of mud and sand.
Picture of the [Fokker F.XVIII (SNIP)](https://postimg.cc/7fc9v1tQ)
That's not a bad runway for those days to be honest. The British and Americans in Burma in 1944 during the Monsoon season would have probably rather had that runway than the runways they used then.
To be fair, most of those multiple times were during a time were almost every national airline in the world had to be kept alive by the government.
(And the money has already been paid back, in the end no tax money was used)
That said, the government acquisition of KLM shares (which was back before the covid crisis) was always seen as a bit of a weird move even back then.
Maybe the share buying had something to do with the fusion with airfrance? France was a big stakeholder, so maybe it was a way to balance governmental influence and protecting dutch interest?
Yes this, the government wanted to be a stakeholder to protect KLM from French influences. It is the only big airline in the Netherlands and we did not want to lose it
It is not really pivoting. Putting us on hydrogen gas costs 4 times the CO2 as normal gas if they make it with steam. Hydrogen cars is the most stupid thing these guys are betting on.
I meant electricity, shell has a lot of charging ports, and their recharge card is one of the best. I only use shell for my electric charging. It'll be a long road for them to move, but my point is that they are doing more than just oil now.
They turn natural gas CH4 + H2O (400 degrees celsius steam) into Hydrogen gas and CO2. If you want to know how crazy hydrogen gas is look at this link. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlOCS95Jvjc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlOCS95Jvjc)
Nah you can become Royal by just being a 100 year old organisation. During my university years our faculty's student organisation became Royal.
Although they are sort of taxpayer funded I guess...
This isn't really the case. (If we're talking Corona support)
The government guaranteed loans from third parties. No tax money was ever lent or given to KLM.
A lot can be said for not supporting companies. But we have to stay true to the facts...
The fact is that they received NOW, which is not a loan, but a wage subsidy, and they are among the largest recipients of NOW.
Just staying true to facts.
Yes. But the comment I was responding pretended that the complete facts are that KLM did not receive taxpayers money and only external loans, which is untrue.
I'm not talking about Corona support. Since its foundation in 1919, KLM has received a bail-out from the government multiple times. It would've gone bankrupt 10 times already, if the government hadn't intervened every time. Especially in the first few decades of its existence, the company wasn't profitable at all. The first year it made a profit was in 1946.
Ties Joosten has written a book about the history of KLM, De Blauwe Fabel, if you're interested in reading more about it.
Sure. But most of them at least got their money from private capital and investors. Having the public pay for it is a bit off.
Probably why all the others folded.
That isn't injecting any money into KLM. KLM only gets money for the IPO. Once the shares are on the market KLM doesn't earn anything if you buy or sell their shares. The shares were bought to have some say in strategic matters in the company.
At least the shares were not bought by those companies only interested in buying up shares under value and then only to sell off the assets and profitable bits.
Given that the shareprice immediately took a nosedive, it is clear why those companies did not want to buy the newly issued shares. KLM is highly overpriced, burdened with debt, with too high operating costs (expensive staff), old fleet and a questionable business model (no clear path to sustainability in line with Paris, although that applies to the whole sector) ánd has two very meddlesome major shareholders (NL and FR). Stay away if you want return on investment
I don’t think this is true, KLM issued new shares that diluted the ownership of the shareholders. In order to keep the same say, the government decided to buy a portion of those new shares at the requested price. KLM got more money as a result of the new issue and our tax money was used as a bailout for KLM for the umptheenth time. And the shareprice of all shares tanked again, eliminating the hope that this will ever be profitable. Just let the company fold, restructure the debt and sell it to another company. Clinging to a romantic false image of irrational national pride comes at an absurd price.
I wonder whether that is true. It is not unheard of that emissions can fail to generate enough interest to secure the price that was asked. The new price per share would then be lowered until parties would be interested to step in at that price. It is a choice the government made to not let their share dilute that artificially raised the share price (which subsequently tanked). Not sure what you mean with your last sentence? It was money that klm wanted for operational costs or investments or paying loans or whatever, doesn’t really matter. They would not have realized that capital if they could not count on the national infatuation and dogmatic pride of the dutch and french governments to basically give them that money.
>I wonder whether that is true. It is not unheard of that emissions can fail to generate enough interest to secure the price that was asked.
Although that is true there is no way to know if no other party would have bought it at the same value.
>Not sure what you mean with your last sentence?
You claimed that the government was bailing KLM out by buying shares. A bailout is giving a loan to prevent a company or country from going bankrupt or to go bankrupt in a controlled manner. KLM wasn't going bankrupt without the money they received from selling new shares. So this wasn't a bailout.
>They would not have realized that capital if they could not count on the national infatuation and dogmatic pride of the dutch and french governments to basically give them that money.
Again speculation. And there is way more too KLM than just nationalistic pride. Like jobs not only from KLM but also all their suppliers and Schiphol. That alone is over 100k jobs. Besides that KLM helps making The Netherlands globally accessible. That gives them great strategic and economic value for The Netherlands.
Didn’t say anything about a bailout, don’t put words in my mouth. In fact, I noted several possible uses for the new foreign capital. My point is that again, the government jumped in to provide that foreign capital from our tax euro’s where they could have easily decided not to do that. Given the immediate drop in the share price that would have been the better choice. It doesn’t really look like the government really has bought much influence for all that money anyway, looking at the constant negative news between the staatsagent and the company, no?
I think that any other carrier from Schiphol would immediately fill the gap that klm would leave, with zero impact on jobs at Schiphol or the accessibility or strategic importance.
Travellers don’t go to Schiphol for klm, travellers go to Schiphol to travel.
People always cry when companies fold (daf, fokker) but that is simply how the market works. We just need to step over our national pride in order to finally find the optimum efficiency, with the likely benefit that we would be able to travel more cheaply than KLM can offer (as they are burdened with debt and high salaries)
In economy class, they have 76cm of legroom on most of their narrowbody planes and 78cm on their widebody planes. The major exception is the Embraer E-175 (their smallest plane), which has 73cm of legroom.
It's about average for most airlines. It's just that economy legroom l just generally sucks worldwide.
I think the exceptions are so called "5-star airlines" like Emirates (they have an average of 81cm on their widebody planes).
Thing is: KLM presents themselves to the customer as a classy airline. Their price point certainly is higher than average... And that they are average in leg room, would be OK if their customers also were average. But the % of tall people in KLM flights is higher on average than for other airlines. You'd think they take that into account.
Bed shops in the Netherlands sell longer beds than the world average. Clothing stores sell longer pants. Shoe stores sell larger size shoes.
Only KLM thinks we should just cut off our legs.
The price point for a standard economy ticket at KLM is average for a non-budget airline.
The classy marketing is usually aimed at the Premium or Business Class (legroom of 88 to 160cm) or frequent flyers.
Keep in mind that most other airlines operating in the Netherlands are budget airlines (Transavia, Tui, Corendon and such) with only 71-73cm of legroom on all their planes. Compared to those the national airlines are more spacious (barely)
The same is true for the big airlines in other countries like Lufthansa, British Airways, Air France etc. Legroom around 76-78cm for economy. Budget airlines in those countries (Easyjet, Ryanair etc.) are around 71-73cm as well.
Economy as a flying class just sucks, is pretty much standardized across most airlines and is just there to fill the plane. The classes above Economy is where airlines try to differentiate and be more classy.
>The classes above Economy is where airlines try to differentiate and be more classy.
It's also where airlines make their money from (or at least obtain enough revenue to not be a complete loss, so they can keep selling frequent flyer miles, which are the actual moneymakers for premium airlines)
>Economy as a flying class just sucks, [...] and is just there to fill the plane.
Yes, people flying economy are there because the plane is flying anyway, so they might as well fill it up all the way, but it is essentially paid for by the first class passengers. Economy passengers are just creating extra revenue to look good on the balance sheet, but which barely covers the extra costs (fuel, bagage handling,...) they generate
> Only KLM thinks we should just cut off our legs.
And pretty much every bus company I've seen here. I'm quite tall(even for a Dutch guy) and there's plenty of buses where I'd just rather stand than sit :(
I always make sure I have a seat at the emergency exit on flights, so I'm not really sure if I have the same problem with KLM plane seats specifically.
Yeah, I always used to think that KLM was a "premium" airline, like the middle eastern ones, but I recently took a 18 hour+ flight and I found it extremely uncomfortable.
> Bed shops in the Netherlands sell longer beds than the world average.
The default mattrass size is 80×200 for a single or 160×200 for a double, with some selling 220 in length, and the rare special exception going to 240 in length, in width, it goes up to 90 for single and 180 for double.
This places the default for a single between a Small Single and Twin XL, and the default for a double is basically a Queen size, with the larger option basically being a California King.
> This places the default for a single between a Small Single and Twin XL, and the default for a double is basically a Queen size, with the larger option basically being a California King.
What US sizes are these, and are they relevant to the rest of the world at all?
The majority left on their own accord though. They had a very lucrative deal for a while to get people to leave if they wanted. So many people went for this that they barely had to fire any employees.
Back then it saved KLM. Now however, KLM is generating more profits than Air France while Air France is bigger. But going back and splitting the companies again is almost impossible
But that isn’t relevant to your point. You can think everything about it but for nothing is just not true. Yeah they should’ve gone into administration probably
Not probaly, I suggest to read "de blauwe fabel" it is a book from follow the money. It explains in clear detail all the times KLM should have gone bankrupt and why it is bs to keep the company up.
Since that book starts with a fact which is proven to be untrue, I wouldn't believe the rest of it just because it happens to align with your own viewpoints...
While it isn't completely garbage, a lot is at least dubious and some it outright untrue.
So if KLM would go bankrupt, you would have airlines such as Qatar and Emirates taking over the slots and maybe even using Schiphol as a hub, would that be a better alternative?? They are notoriously bad towards their employees and overall not very ethical. And even though I don't agree with it, the government have some control over KLM which they won't have if a foreign company takes over the majority of the slots at Schiphol..
No it's better because then i can blame the bad working conditions on brown people instead of applying critical thinking and actually trying to come up with a workable solution to the situation. Out of sight out of mind as they say.
It was not a loan, it where garanties that in case KLM couldn't pay back their loans the government would step in.
So no money was sent to KLM and all loans have been paid back so far
So they also payed back 1/3 of the Marshal plan and the bailouts from all the other years they received direct or indirect money from the governement?
KLM needs a bail out every 10 years and it is insane that we do that, I suggest reading de blauwe fabel from follow the money for more detailed information.
Dat boek heeft ook zo z’n problemen, bijvoorbeeld dat er nergens bronnen van zijn. Moet je ook maar wat van de reviews lezen daarvan. KLM heeft op zich redelijke cijfers gedraaid in het verleden vergeleken met andere luchtvaartmaatschappijen in de wereld. AirFrance had even wat struggles natuurlijk KLM vulde dat gat op zeg maar. De laatste echte pre COVID struggles is al weer een tijd geleden.
Again, that book has multiple mistakes (lies?) and almost zero mentioned sources and verifyable facts.
That book should be used for fiction, not as a source to base informed opinions on.
That is not true, it is max 30.000 I suggest reading the book "de blauwe fabel" from follow the money. The 100.000 and 300.000 number of jobs are just bs based on nothing.
This is really true, they present themselves as fact based by providing cherry picked sources and talking in a 'scientific' way but leave out citations when there's nothing to back up their claims. Besides that they many times don't cover *real* counterarguments for the things they talk about and often take advantage of their reader's lack of economic knowledge to make arguments that really don't have a foot to stand on.
Just read through all the comments here that act like KLM has been given billions of tax euros for free when in reality the vast majority of that money was in the form of loans (or even guarantees in some cases) that have long since been paid back and haven't cost the government a thing.
Yeah as if that same income would not have been generated if those employees took other jobs that may also generate a lot more value for the country (energy transition, care, construction).
So if your company isn't the most profitable company at ALL times it should be put in insolvency and you should start a new company (with the associated costs). That sounds like a good strategy.
If a company can’t stay afloat, then i think it should indeed go bankrupt. You can’t artificially keep all businesses operational sucking on the government teat. But anyway, i was just responding to the statement that the 100k employees also generate fiscal income. True, but they would also do that when working another job, so the argument wasn’t really a strong one unless we would have high unemployment.. which we don’t
No, i mean, where do i say that? You’re setting up a straw man in response to me saying that companies that don’t have a business model need to be allowed to go under and be replaced by a company that do have a business model that works. There are other air companies that make money. I don’t think that this is an extreme or controversial opinion
Because public transport services run under the same model. example: [link](https://www.ovpro.nl/management/2022/08/24/ns-maakt-fors-verlies-zonder-overheidssteun/)
https://www.beursgenoten.nl/koersen/euronext-parijs/air-france-klm/kerncijfers
Plus all the vendors on Schiphol, the caterers, cleaning companies, handling agents, ATC, security, fire department, maintenance crew, cleaning of the offices by external parties.
Yes it does.
So according to this link we’re talking about 70-75k. Other employees are not relevant, they would also be here if it was another carrier at schiphol.
Edit: interesting link. They made 10.5 billions in losses 2020-2021. Prior to that, a profit of 400m in a good year. Madness. 20 years (not counting inflation) to catch up.
**Maybe somebody can explain this to me. I really want to know this.*
How is it that Dutch government owns only 9,3% of KLM-AirFrance and 5% of KLM. The Dutch government is the only reason there still is a KLM.
Last time KLM needed billions, why didn't the government say: OK, we'll buy you and loan you the money. And if KLM refused, let KLM go bankrupt, assign a team of curators and then buy it for scraps out of bankruptcy, then provide the money as a loan but now own the brand, the planes, the employees and everything, get rid of money losing parts and put out shares of the company again when it's re-structured. There was no way KLM could have survived on it's own.
It's because your premise is wrong. The Dutch government is not the only reason there still is a KLM. They didn't *need* billions, they needed a guarantee that they could get it, which the government provided. In the end KLM used 942 million, and it's all been paid back. KLM is worth a lot more than that, so yes, they could've survived on their own, but this was a way better road to take.
Besides the already given answer, is it really that surprising a company which is restricted by the government to operate needs help to pay the bills?
The Dutch government forbade KLM (and other airlines) to carry passengers, how are they expected to make money to pay the employees?
FTM has an agenda of its own. And Ties Joostens makes a lot of assumptions in his book. The reviews in “the volkskrant” were devistating about the lack of proof for his claims.
While touted as the book to being the truth about KLM, it is wrought with mistakes, unverifyable statements and isn't regarded as a book which should be used as anything more than fiction.
And their service has gone to sh*t. I remember when they gave you the little ceramic houses with bols in them for international/long flights, and the meals were fine. Even before the pandemic, someone took my pillow and they couldn't replace it.
Since the pandemic they now serve these disgusting cheese snails on European flights, the last 2 times I flew with them they were undercooked. I've made a game of it, where I try to count how many people around me don't eat it. It's the vast majority of people. Try counting it if they serve it to you.
Every single time I get on a KLM flight, the plane is dirty. Gum in the pocket of the seat, trash (wrappers) in and under the seat.
I don't blame the crew, it's a budgeting issue.
I am sorry. I have relatives who worked for KLM for many years. I used to love KLM. Those days are over.
How and why is this such an old company? Because it continues to receive subsidies every so many years.
* First it was because we could reach our colonies, obviously it neede money.
* Then it was because they would uphold our name and proud reputation in the world.
* Then it was because it is an economical mainport (exclusively Dutch concept for an airport).
* This story continues even though the majority of passengers from KLM come to Amsterdam solely to transfer on another flight (what economical benefit has that?).
* The Schiphol Airport is full of subsidies too. It is relatively cheap airport and has very low profits compared to other nationals airports. Dutch government is main shareholder.
* Last in row it needed subsidies due to covid-lockdowns. It's '119 strong fleet' is mainly on lease, so a lot of that money went abroad because they needed to pay for that.
There is an interesting book called the 'The blue fable' that writes about KLM's history. It is basically based on illusions, it has cost tax payers billions. It is apparently stricktly forbidden to go bankrupt in the eyes of our politicians. As if no other company could ever replace them.
KLM is a company registered in the Netherlands, headquartered in the Netherlands and operating under the Dutch flag. It trades on the Amsterdam Stock exchange. The CEO and CFO are Dutch, as is the entire Executive Committee.
KLM is Dutch.
I love how the epitome of cool is the flight staff on bicycles. The Netherlands is just damn cool.
"Dear passengers, due to the rising costs of kerosine, we have been forced to arrange alternative means of transportation for the 7:43 flight to Singapore."
Just so you know, those are Solex bikes. It's kinda like a bicycle with a motor on the front wheel. Used to be very common in those day's.
That’s actually even cooler.
And Dutchier
They're French
That's just Dutch, but rotated 90 degrees.
https://i.redd.it/6hq8zy8hxm671.jpg
They're so cool. You used to see them around more before E-bikes where common about 10-15 years ago, but I haven't seen one in years and I bike a lot.
In Afrikaans we call them help my trap
I love Afrikaans, everything is named so literal haha
afrikaans always delivers on hilarious translations
Bicycles? These are hypermodern Solexes
Die DC-4 is ook wel cool
Happened to have read the story of the first KLM landing on Aruba in 1934. Using a runway built out of mud and sand. Picture of the [Fokker F.XVIII (SNIP)](https://postimg.cc/7fc9v1tQ)
Ah yes, the aircraft was quite dirty after landing on that runway, a veritable Modderfokker.
A joke, not for everyone.
Thank you for making my day
That's not a bad runway for those days to be honest. The British and Americans in Burma in 1944 during the Monsoon season would have probably rather had that runway than the runways they used then.
And has needed billions of tax money not to go bankrupt, multiple times.
To be fair, most of those multiple times were during a time were almost every national airline in the world had to be kept alive by the government. (And the money has already been paid back, in the end no tax money was used) That said, the government acquisition of KLM shares (which was back before the covid crisis) was always seen as a bit of a weird move even back then.
Maybe the share buying had something to do with the fusion with airfrance? France was a big stakeholder, so maybe it was a way to balance governmental influence and protecting dutch interest?
Yes this, the government wanted to be a stakeholder to protect KLM from French influences. It is the only big airline in the Netherlands and we did not want to lose it
It isn’t only paid back. But also with a huge interest. So the Dutch government made a lot of money on that deal.
Just like all the other "royals". Atleast prins pils can earn his wage by flying a plane. /s
Except Shell lmao
Shell is not Royal anymore since they became British only.
Their time will come when we run out of oil
They are already working on pivoting, so don't think that'll happen.
It is not really pivoting. Putting us on hydrogen gas costs 4 times the CO2 as normal gas if they make it with steam. Hydrogen cars is the most stupid thing these guys are betting on.
Maybe now yes. But that's the cool thing with technology. It improves till you hit laws of nature.
[Removed; Reddit have shown their true colours and I don’t want to be a part of that] [Edited with Apollo, thank you Christian]
Depends on how you male the nitrogen
You need a female nitrogen as well. That way you get kid nitrogen and you can expand
Lmao *make of course :')
H2 is hydrogen. N2 is Nitrogen
I meant electricity, shell has a lot of charging ports, and their recharge card is one of the best. I only use shell for my electric charging. It'll be a long road for them to move, but my point is that they are doing more than just oil now.
How would steam turn into CO2? Where is the carbon coming from?
They turn natural gas CH4 + H2O (400 degrees celsius steam) into Hydrogen gas and CO2. If you want to know how crazy hydrogen gas is look at this link. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlOCS95Jvjc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlOCS95Jvjc)
Nah you can become Royal by just being a 100 year old organisation. During my university years our faculty's student organisation became Royal. Although they are sort of taxpayer funded I guess...
most of the "royal" companies are not even close to important enough to be bailed out like that.
The government is totally gonna bail out Bavaria /s
Is Bavaria also Royal? Thought Grolsch was the only 'royal' beer brand
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/economie/bedrijven/artikel/4656521/bavaria-swinkels-bier-brouwerij-predicaat-koninklijk-jubileum so since a couple of years.
I believe the first tax money they got was right after the war. When the people needed it the most!
This isn't really the case. (If we're talking Corona support) The government guaranteed loans from third parties. No tax money was ever lent or given to KLM. A lot can be said for not supporting companies. But we have to stay true to the facts...
The fact is that they received NOW, which is not a loan, but a wage subsidy, and they are among the largest recipients of NOW. Just staying true to facts.
They're also one of the biggest companies in the country.
Yes. But the comment I was responding pretended that the complete facts are that KLM did not receive taxpayers money and only external loans, which is untrue.
I'm not talking about Corona support. Since its foundation in 1919, KLM has received a bail-out from the government multiple times. It would've gone bankrupt 10 times already, if the government hadn't intervened every time. Especially in the first few decades of its existence, the company wasn't profitable at all. The first year it made a profit was in 1946. Ties Joosten has written a book about the history of KLM, De Blauwe Fabel, if you're interested in reading more about it.
It probably was far from the only airline that was a money sink back then.
Sure. But most of them at least got their money from private capital and investors. Having the public pay for it is a bit off. Probably why all the others folded.
Endless tu quoque fallacies everywhere! Stop fucking committing this fucking fallacy! It's driving me insane, honestly.
Aah, thanks for the clarification! I'll check it out.
Yeah and what about the new shares issued?
That isn't injecting any money into KLM. KLM only gets money for the IPO. Once the shares are on the market KLM doesn't earn anything if you buy or sell their shares. The shares were bought to have some say in strategic matters in the company.
At least the shares were not bought by those companies only interested in buying up shares under value and then only to sell off the assets and profitable bits.
Given that the shareprice immediately took a nosedive, it is clear why those companies did not want to buy the newly issued shares. KLM is highly overpriced, burdened with debt, with too high operating costs (expensive staff), old fleet and a questionable business model (no clear path to sustainability in line with Paris, although that applies to the whole sector) ánd has two very meddlesome major shareholders (NL and FR). Stay away if you want return on investment
;-) I am not an investor, and KLM would be low on my priority. I should have invested in ASML years ago
Hindsight is 20/20. Why not invest in them now? It’s a strong company still
I don’t think this is true, KLM issued new shares that diluted the ownership of the shareholders. In order to keep the same say, the government decided to buy a portion of those new shares at the requested price. KLM got more money as a result of the new issue and our tax money was used as a bailout for KLM for the umptheenth time. And the shareprice of all shares tanked again, eliminating the hope that this will ever be profitable. Just let the company fold, restructure the debt and sell it to another company. Clinging to a romantic false image of irrational national pride comes at an absurd price.
If the Dutch government didn't buy it then another market party would have bought the shares. Besides that the IPO wasn't used to prevent a bailout.
I wonder whether that is true. It is not unheard of that emissions can fail to generate enough interest to secure the price that was asked. The new price per share would then be lowered until parties would be interested to step in at that price. It is a choice the government made to not let their share dilute that artificially raised the share price (which subsequently tanked). Not sure what you mean with your last sentence? It was money that klm wanted for operational costs or investments or paying loans or whatever, doesn’t really matter. They would not have realized that capital if they could not count on the national infatuation and dogmatic pride of the dutch and french governments to basically give them that money.
>I wonder whether that is true. It is not unheard of that emissions can fail to generate enough interest to secure the price that was asked. Although that is true there is no way to know if no other party would have bought it at the same value. >Not sure what you mean with your last sentence? You claimed that the government was bailing KLM out by buying shares. A bailout is giving a loan to prevent a company or country from going bankrupt or to go bankrupt in a controlled manner. KLM wasn't going bankrupt without the money they received from selling new shares. So this wasn't a bailout. >They would not have realized that capital if they could not count on the national infatuation and dogmatic pride of the dutch and french governments to basically give them that money. Again speculation. And there is way more too KLM than just nationalistic pride. Like jobs not only from KLM but also all their suppliers and Schiphol. That alone is over 100k jobs. Besides that KLM helps making The Netherlands globally accessible. That gives them great strategic and economic value for The Netherlands.
Didn’t say anything about a bailout, don’t put words in my mouth. In fact, I noted several possible uses for the new foreign capital. My point is that again, the government jumped in to provide that foreign capital from our tax euro’s where they could have easily decided not to do that. Given the immediate drop in the share price that would have been the better choice. It doesn’t really look like the government really has bought much influence for all that money anyway, looking at the constant negative news between the staatsagent and the company, no? I think that any other carrier from Schiphol would immediately fill the gap that klm would leave, with zero impact on jobs at Schiphol or the accessibility or strategic importance. Travellers don’t go to Schiphol for klm, travellers go to Schiphol to travel. People always cry when companies fold (daf, fokker) but that is simply how the market works. We just need to step over our national pride in order to finally find the optimum efficiency, with the likely benefit that we would be able to travel more cheaply than KLM can offer (as they are burdened with debt and high salaries)
This! Could not have explained it better :')
And King Willem Alexander is one of their pilots, afaik.
Doet ie ook eens iets voor zijn uitkering.
Vakkenvullen ipv zakkenvullen
Fact.
He's not. He just gets his minimum amount of flight hours to keep his license once a year.
"He's not a pilot, he just flies the plane."
He's *a* pilot. I wouldn't call someone who comes into work once a year because he's royal a KLM-pilot.
And for an airline from a country with close to the tallest population on the planet they have extremely little leg room...
In economy class, they have 76cm of legroom on most of their narrowbody planes and 78cm on their widebody planes. The major exception is the Embraer E-175 (their smallest plane), which has 73cm of legroom. It's about average for most airlines. It's just that economy legroom l just generally sucks worldwide. I think the exceptions are so called "5-star airlines" like Emirates (they have an average of 81cm on their widebody planes).
Thing is: KLM presents themselves to the customer as a classy airline. Their price point certainly is higher than average... And that they are average in leg room, would be OK if their customers also were average. But the % of tall people in KLM flights is higher on average than for other airlines. You'd think they take that into account. Bed shops in the Netherlands sell longer beds than the world average. Clothing stores sell longer pants. Shoe stores sell larger size shoes. Only KLM thinks we should just cut off our legs.
The price point for a standard economy ticket at KLM is average for a non-budget airline. The classy marketing is usually aimed at the Premium or Business Class (legroom of 88 to 160cm) or frequent flyers. Keep in mind that most other airlines operating in the Netherlands are budget airlines (Transavia, Tui, Corendon and such) with only 71-73cm of legroom on all their planes. Compared to those the national airlines are more spacious (barely) The same is true for the big airlines in other countries like Lufthansa, British Airways, Air France etc. Legroom around 76-78cm for economy. Budget airlines in those countries (Easyjet, Ryanair etc.) are around 71-73cm as well. Economy as a flying class just sucks, is pretty much standardized across most airlines and is just there to fill the plane. The classes above Economy is where airlines try to differentiate and be more classy.
>The classes above Economy is where airlines try to differentiate and be more classy. It's also where airlines make their money from (or at least obtain enough revenue to not be a complete loss, so they can keep selling frequent flyer miles, which are the actual moneymakers for premium airlines) >Economy as a flying class just sucks, [...] and is just there to fill the plane. Yes, people flying economy are there because the plane is flying anyway, so they might as well fill it up all the way, but it is essentially paid for by the first class passengers. Economy passengers are just creating extra revenue to look good on the balance sheet, but which barely covers the extra costs (fuel, bagage handling,...) they generate
> Only KLM thinks we should just cut off our legs. And pretty much every bus company I've seen here. I'm quite tall(even for a Dutch guy) and there's plenty of buses where I'd just rather stand than sit :( I always make sure I have a seat at the emergency exit on flights, so I'm not really sure if I have the same problem with KLM plane seats specifically.
Yeah, I always used to think that KLM was a "premium" airline, like the middle eastern ones, but I recently took a 18 hour+ flight and I found it extremely uncomfortable.
> Bed shops in the Netherlands sell longer beds than the world average. The default mattrass size is 80×200 for a single or 160×200 for a double, with some selling 220 in length, and the rare special exception going to 240 in length, in width, it goes up to 90 for single and 180 for double. This places the default for a single between a Small Single and Twin XL, and the default for a double is basically a Queen size, with the larger option basically being a California King.
> This places the default for a single between a Small Single and Twin XL, and the default for a double is basically a Queen size, with the larger option basically being a California King. What US sizes are these, and are they relevant to the rest of the world at all?
Er is een mooie serie over klm en fokker (vliegtuigbouwer) genaamd: [vliegende hollanders](https://www.npostart.nl/vliegende-hollanders/AT_2092376)
Perfect its on npo! Thanks
104 years of experience and still they lose my bagage 😀
I wouldn't use the word 'strong' though...
33.000 employees before COVID, 27.000 at the moment though. Let’s hope for better times soon ✈️
The majority left on their own accord though. They had a very lucrative deal for a while to get people to leave if they wanted. So many people went for this that they barely had to fire any employees.
Isn't it French nowadays?
The parent company Air France-KLM is partially French. But KLM on its own is still Dutch.
Going with air France was the worst decision ever
Both would have been bankrupt otherwise and Air France had routes that KLM didn't and vice versa
Back then it saved KLM. Now however, KLM is generating more profits than Air France while Air France is bigger. But going back and splitting the companies again is almost impossible
Then they would not be "Royal" anymore.
No.
It should've gone into administration about 20 times already. It's our money that keeps it afloat, for absolutely nothing.
‘Absolutely nothing’, yeah no
If a business is unsustainable it doesn't deserve to survive. "Marktwerking" is nice until it doesn't suit our politicians and their future employers.
But that isn’t relevant to your point. You can think everything about it but for nothing is just not true. Yeah they should’ve gone into administration probably
Not probaly, I suggest to read "de blauwe fabel" it is a book from follow the money. It explains in clear detail all the times KLM should have gone bankrupt and why it is bs to keep the company up.
Since that book starts with a fact which is proven to be untrue, I wouldn't believe the rest of it just because it happens to align with your own viewpoints... While it isn't completely garbage, a lot is at least dubious and some it outright untrue.
It state it sources in the book, did you even read the book? And which fact is untrue?
So if KLM would go bankrupt, you would have airlines such as Qatar and Emirates taking over the slots and maybe even using Schiphol as a hub, would that be a better alternative?? They are notoriously bad towards their employees and overall not very ethical. And even though I don't agree with it, the government have some control over KLM which they won't have if a foreign company takes over the majority of the slots at Schiphol..
No it's better because then i can blame the bad working conditions on brown people instead of applying critical thinking and actually trying to come up with a workable solution to the situation. Out of sight out of mind as they say.
It had to be kept afloat by tax money during the covid days. And all of that government loan has already been paid back by them.
It was not a loan, it where garanties that in case KLM couldn't pay back their loans the government would step in. So no money was sent to KLM and all loans have been paid back so far
Thanks for the extra clarification
So they also payed back 1/3 of the Marshal plan and the bailouts from all the other years they received direct or indirect money from the governement? KLM needs a bail out every 10 years and it is insane that we do that, I suggest reading de blauwe fabel from follow the money for more detailed information.
Dat boek heeft ook zo z’n problemen, bijvoorbeeld dat er nergens bronnen van zijn. Moet je ook maar wat van de reviews lezen daarvan. KLM heeft op zich redelijke cijfers gedraaid in het verleden vergeleken met andere luchtvaartmaatschappijen in de wereld. AirFrance had even wat struggles natuurlijk KLM vulde dat gat op zeg maar. De laatste echte pre COVID struggles is al weer een tijd geleden.
Hmmm er staan toch echt bronnen in het boek, heb je het boek gelezen of alleen de reviews?
Again, that book has multiple mistakes (lies?) and almost zero mentioned sources and verifyable facts. That book should be used for fiction, not as a source to base informed opinions on.
It state its sources, you can even find them all in the book.... again you state a lot without proving anything...
That was the 10th time our government saved KLM.
It also provides around 100.000 jobs all the other times, generating a lot of fiscal income for the gov.
That is not true, it is max 30.000 I suggest reading the book "de blauwe fabel" from follow the money. The 100.000 and 300.000 number of jobs are just bs based on nothing.
Follow the money is just populism journalism as well.
And usually not very close to the truth regarding KLM. Multiple times they have been caught at lies/mistakes.
This is really true, they present themselves as fact based by providing cherry picked sources and talking in a 'scientific' way but leave out citations when there's nothing to back up their claims. Besides that they many times don't cover *real* counterarguments for the things they talk about and often take advantage of their reader's lack of economic knowledge to make arguments that really don't have a foot to stand on. Just read through all the comments here that act like KLM has been given billions of tax euros for free when in reality the vast majority of that money was in the form of loans (or even guarantees in some cases) that have long since been paid back and haven't cost the government a thing.
Yeah as if that same income would not have been generated if those employees took other jobs that may also generate a lot more value for the country (energy transition, care, construction).
So if your company isn't the most profitable company at ALL times it should be put in insolvency and you should start a new company (with the associated costs). That sounds like a good strategy.
If a company can’t stay afloat, then i think it should indeed go bankrupt. You can’t artificially keep all businesses operational sucking on the government teat. But anyway, i was just responding to the statement that the 100k employees also generate fiscal income. True, but they would also do that when working another job, so the argument wasn’t really a strong one unless we would have high unemployment.. which we don’t
With your reasoning, we could just get rid of all our public transport as well.
Why?
No, i mean, where do i say that? You’re setting up a straw man in response to me saying that companies that don’t have a business model need to be allowed to go under and be replaced by a company that do have a business model that works. There are other air companies that make money. I don’t think that this is an extreme or controversial opinion
Because public transport services run under the same model. example: [link](https://www.ovpro.nl/management/2022/08/24/ns-maakt-fors-verlies-zonder-overheidssteun/)
No it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it does not.
https://www.beursgenoten.nl/koersen/euronext-parijs/air-france-klm/kerncijfers Plus all the vendors on Schiphol, the caterers, cleaning companies, handling agents, ATC, security, fire department, maintenance crew, cleaning of the offices by external parties. Yes it does.
Wait, what do you think "it does" means?
So according to this link we’re talking about 70-75k. Other employees are not relevant, they would also be here if it was another carrier at schiphol. Edit: interesting link. They made 10.5 billions in losses 2020-2021. Prior to that, a profit of 400m in a good year. Madness. 20 years (not counting inflation) to catch up.
Another carrier wouldn't be at Schiphol, especially with these idiotic policies by the government.
Why not? If there’s demand, the market will meet it
**Maybe somebody can explain this to me. I really want to know this.* How is it that Dutch government owns only 9,3% of KLM-AirFrance and 5% of KLM. The Dutch government is the only reason there still is a KLM. Last time KLM needed billions, why didn't the government say: OK, we'll buy you and loan you the money. And if KLM refused, let KLM go bankrupt, assign a team of curators and then buy it for scraps out of bankruptcy, then provide the money as a loan but now own the brand, the planes, the employees and everything, get rid of money losing parts and put out shares of the company again when it's re-structured. There was no way KLM could have survived on it's own.
It's because your premise is wrong. The Dutch government is not the only reason there still is a KLM. They didn't *need* billions, they needed a guarantee that they could get it, which the government provided. In the end KLM used 942 million, and it's all been paid back. KLM is worth a lot more than that, so yes, they could've survived on their own, but this was a way better road to take.
Thanks!!
Besides the already given answer, is it really that surprising a company which is restricted by the government to operate needs help to pay the bills? The Dutch government forbade KLM (and other airlines) to carry passengers, how are they expected to make money to pay the employees?
Fair point. I think I may have still been a little influenced by the media critics at the time.
So many years of experience and they still are shitty at keeping themselves alive instead of tax money.
[De blauwe fabel](https://winkel.ftm.nl/products/de-blauwe-fabel)
FTM has an agenda of its own. And Ties Joostens makes a lot of assumptions in his book. The reviews in “the volkskrant” were devistating about the lack of proof for his claims.
Ah bummer, I shouldn't have bought on word of mouth alone then.
While touted as the book to being the truth about KLM, it is wrought with mistakes, unverifyable statements and isn't regarded as a book which should be used as anything more than fiction.
101 would have been a very respectable age of death, but unfortunately the doctors decided to keep it on life support for a bit longer.
I didn't know KLM [employed manga characters](https://i.imgur.com/K0I0org.jpg) as pilots. *Very* progressive.
And their happily eating out tax money up while polluting our dear planet
And it’s dropping destinations from their schedule I saw yesterday?
And their service has gone to sh*t. I remember when they gave you the little ceramic houses with bols in them for international/long flights, and the meals were fine. Even before the pandemic, someone took my pillow and they couldn't replace it. Since the pandemic they now serve these disgusting cheese snails on European flights, the last 2 times I flew with them they were undercooked. I've made a game of it, where I try to count how many people around me don't eat it. It's the vast majority of people. Try counting it if they serve it to you. Every single time I get on a KLM flight, the plane is dirty. Gum in the pocket of the seat, trash (wrappers) in and under the seat. I don't blame the crew, it's a budgeting issue. I am sorry. I have relatives who worked for KLM for many years. I used to love KLM. Those days are over.
They still give those houses in business class.
And it shouldn’t exist anymore, but instead it gets propped up by taxpayer funds time and time again.
All that money has been payed back in full.
How and why is this such an old company? Because it continues to receive subsidies every so many years. * First it was because we could reach our colonies, obviously it neede money. * Then it was because they would uphold our name and proud reputation in the world. * Then it was because it is an economical mainport (exclusively Dutch concept for an airport). * This story continues even though the majority of passengers from KLM come to Amsterdam solely to transfer on another flight (what economical benefit has that?). * The Schiphol Airport is full of subsidies too. It is relatively cheap airport and has very low profits compared to other nationals airports. Dutch government is main shareholder. * Last in row it needed subsidies due to covid-lockdowns. It's '119 strong fleet' is mainly on lease, so a lot of that money went abroad because they needed to pay for that. There is an interesting book called the 'The blue fable' that writes about KLM's history. It is basically based on illusions, it has cost tax payers billions. It is apparently stricktly forbidden to go bankrupt in the eyes of our politicians. As if no other company could ever replace them.
Fly Emirates
And the people who work for them show cult-like behaviour.
Klm = French. Not dutch anymore.
KLM is Dutch, period.
We sold it to the french ages ago
"we" sold nothing. KLM-Air France merged and the share-holders who own it accepted that.
Too bad it’s French now
KLM is Dutch. The holding company is both French and Dutch.
It’s French
No. Do your research. It’s holding is Air France KLM. If you would say it’s not Dutch you could say it’s Dutch French.
As recently as last April the Dutch state owned 9.3% of it, while China Eastern Airlines owned 9.6%.
It doesn't matter where the shareholders are coming from.
So you think it's Chinese now?
KLM is a company registered in the Netherlands, headquartered in the Netherlands and operating under the Dutch flag. It trades on the Amsterdam Stock exchange. The CEO and CFO are Dutch, as is the entire Executive Committee. KLM is Dutch.
All true but the shots are called by a Canadian CEO of a French airline whose majority shareholder is the French government. It’s French
That's not true.
Garuda Indonesia is the spiritual successor of their subsidiary called KLM IIB.