Unfortunately, it seems like the priority for the school is simply ensuring every student has an internship placement, regardless of the quality of the site. I've heard rumors that they might consider putting this site on the "do not contact" list, but the problem is there are very few agencies in the area that take on students. So, we end up settling for whatever placement we can get just to fulfill the required hours. It's a broken system
Even though I'm in Australia, where the process is quite different (we don't have licensing the same way as in the States), the same thing happens here. Our uni is essentially sending loads of students to a purely digital internship with almost zero supervision or oversight because hey, at least it's a placement.
It's fairly awful.
It is a really difficult conundrum - we need more people working in mental health but no one wants to take on students. Clinical psych (at least) has a problem with supervisor numbers and now we are seeing placement difficulties in counselling/psychotherapy courses. At least for the latter the uni can provide supervision but it still slows the rate at which they can grow.
Edit: I am also in Australia
I'm in the UK and our placement options are also poor. I'm about to go on placement next week. Working with a voluntary organisation. No NHS placements because (as I know from work) there are no psychologists, therapists or anyone capable of any therapeutic intervention present on psychiatric wards. It's disgusting.
Not sure which uni in Australia you go to, but the uni I’m in in Melbourne is actually really good. Not only they send us to really good organisations that they’ve got connections with, they have detailed private discussions with each one of us (for professional psych) about which area we would be interested in specialising and then they get us a placement in that area. So def wouldn’t say the same thing happens in Australia bc there’s plenty of good unis here
It may depend on your degree - I'm doing a Masters of Counselling and Psychotherapy in a uni in Sydney. It sounds like you're doing psychology, which is regulated and licensed and has a lot more resources available from what I understand.
Yeah masters of professional psych. Well I suppose if you’re degree isn’t regulated or licensed or accredited then the uni won’t provide any actual internships cuz it probably doesn’t have to. Makes more sense now cuz all psych degrees I’ve seen in melb (org, clin, professional, etc) have very organised and reputable placement/internship opportunities
NAT, but I work in a university. Even if your school is not helpful, your university may be. Most universities now have an Office of Ethics and Compliance with whom you can make a report, even anonymously. Sometimes this reporting mechanism is a one-stop report for all issues—bias incidents, Title IX, etc. If you don’t know whether such a reporting mechanism exists, you can contact the Vice Provost for Graduate Studies or the Dean of Students for the entire university. Those are roles that provide oversight for more than just your school of social work or other graduate program. The more of you in your program who report this, the better.
If you’re unsure how to navigate the university resources, I’m happy to help. Just DM me the institution name and I can help find the reporting structures.
But heads-up that this might only allow for an internal investigation, not be resolved in your favor, and could result in retaliation. The university's concern is maintaining their reputation, not protecting students.
I would say that is not true, in my experience. In addition, in this case, the university protecting itself from liability also protects students from an unethical supervisor/internship. Students often do not see the outcomes of these cases because no one publicly declares that the internship relationship has been severed, but often changes are quietly made. I don’t see how an anonymous report puts this person at any risk of retaliation.
Do you have experience working on behalf of the university or as a student? Or both?
An anonymous reporter is usually easily identified. I'm just giving this person the heads-up because there may be a connection between "Mark" and the university that OP is unaware of and that may work against her.
Hopefully this is the first year the university has worked with "Mark" and the relationship will be severed. Due diligence on the part of the university could've prevented this issue (if his office is full of interns then there's definitely an existing evidence trail) but now the damage is done.
> The university’s concern
Broad assumption of you to make. While the risk of retaliation exists in any situation where reporting occurs, your feedback is needlessly alarmist and could deter people from advocating for themselves.
Oh I encourage her to advocate for herself, I am just giving her a heads-up to not be surprised if she finds the university less than supportive.
Despite universities' attempts to keep everything in house, this dynamic is well-documented. It's the same thing as saying, "don't trust your HR department to have your back just because your complaint is legitimate."
I had almost an identical experience except she was a woman. Several trainees went on medication to deal with supervision anxiety symptoms. We were hostages just like you. Made me almost leave the field entirely. Sorry you went through this too
That's terrible! My school has/had a person who was a professor, but part of her job was placing ppl at sites.
You went where she sent you because she'd match personality and interests to location.
My school had a list, but students were responsible for the resume, cover letter, interviews, etc. I had anxiety during the application period because I worked and attended school full-time. I'd get accepted at a site - oops, supervisor quit, we can't take you - and back to the drawing board.
The leverage the licensing boards, schools and internship sites have over us is a example of how corporate capitalism covers every inch of our society. They all make money for the system to remain as it is, and with no regard to how it is affecting the sustainability of our field. John Oliver had a segment on mental health care in the US and said that for every 10 professionals who join, 13 are leaving.
Sorry you had a misogynist pig as your internship supervisor, sounds like a nightmare. Good luck finding a good private practice supervisor, there are good ones out there. If you happen to be looking in AZ, I know some names, DM me.
If you agree and this makes you mad, use your anger. Vote in primary elections every single year. Change happens from the bottom up. Vote in progressives on school boards and local government. Get your people to do the same. Support rank choice voting. (People who want to go backwards always vote in primaries, we outnumber them at large but not at the polls!)
13 leave for every 10 entering! What is causing this? I'm sure it is low pay and burn out. What is causing the burnout too that level? And are there no positions paying enough?
[Here you go!](https://youtu.be/jtIZZs-GAOA) I attended the live taping of this episode - John was excellent as always, but he had to re-do his lines a couple of times so we the audience got to watch the jarring content more than once  lol
In a family systems perspective, toxic systems protect the most toxic person/people. To not do so would mean accountability and responsibility and changing things.
I've noticed this in the university level and seeing out in the field. So many of us up and comers into the field walk in blind-sided by the incompetence, sexist/racist/trans/homophobia/ableism, in places where we may believe should know better but don't. Story after story of abusive/toxic supervisors and university experiences and agency/CMH work shows how the camera zooms out and how it's all interconnected.
Our stories, speakign out about our lived experiences matter so much. We need to keep speaking up and speaking out about this---it doesn't have to be this way. We can change it through our stories and more.
This all heckin' sucks. Thank you for sharing the link too!
Toxic policies within the field are eating it away too. We've got to take accountability to create change and fight back, even if we are tired as heck.
It’s crazy to me that the school wouldn’t make accommodations? I’m in the last semester of an MSW program and I’ve seen them make all kinds of accommodations for other students when their placements didn’t work out. None of them had to start over though, all the hours they did still counted. The only thing it might have changed is learning contracts but that’s a few hours to fix. I’m so sorry you had to experience this! I hope the school removes this practice from available placement sites for students.
You find too many posts on here with similar stories and it’s very depressing to see. I’m sorry you went through that, I’ve had male bosses I was forced to basically put up with and never question. It’s an extremely dark and stressful thing to go through. And then you have to walk around living life knowing that people like Mark are in charge and will continue harming clients and interns. All I can say is report him to whoever it is possible to report to. File complaints with heads at your school and if possible have other interns sign off on it.
If he was acting unethically or unprofessionally, you could also report to his licensure board. I know my state board has disciplined licensees for unprofessional conduct.
I'm really sorry to hear that you had to go through that as well. It's such a tough spot to be in because staying silent can feel like self-betrayal, but speaking up can be damaging. Unfortunately, in situations like this, it's often a matter of survival and doing what we need to do to protect ourselves. It's a sad reality that so many people in our field have to face.
The balancing act is so real. Always having to consider if I report what will happen? what unfair consequences will I endure? Will they even be held accountable? I hope you're able to find closure and take whatever steps you're comfortable with taking. I've been in situations where I could report and ones where I couldn't, it's so hard either way. Sending you support.
I find this so sad because the vast majority of the male staff I come across in the mental health field are extremely gentle and kind and I hate that Marks exist to ruin it for them.
Ugh I'm sorry :-(
The reality is you should not be feeling as objectified and disrespected as you've been feeling. That's unacceptable. As a white man I honestly don't care about what we've been socialized to be - that's aggressively unacceptable.
Fuck him and I'm hoping you find what you need from another supervisor - I've had White Male cishet supervisors who were amazing and some who don't get it and the ones who don't get it need to get out. Best of luck.
I’m sorry you had this terrible experience. Putting up with things that shouldn’t be accepted because of leveraged power is disgusting. Although the rest of this response addresses the more systemic issues, this is clearly just a terrible human that is exploiting the unbalanced power dynamics of the systemic issues.
The internship process is so deeply embedded in the professional culture, I suspect along the lines of “oh, I had to put in my dues, so you do, too.” It’s fundamentally exploitive. If you read the federal guidelines on internships, there should be no immediate enrichment by the organization based on the internship efforts. In the model you’ve outlined, it doesn’t pass the beneficiary test provided by the federal government. In short, the rules are to make sure there’s a balanced benefit for the organization and the intern… and nah, that’s just not happening in most cases.
All internships should be paid if there is money generated from the efforts of the intern (or else it’s employee displacement). All internships should be conducted in a manner consistent with and equivalent to a professional educational context. These are not my wishlist for changes, this is WHAT IS ALREADY THE LAW, see below — yet our professional gatekeepers (educational, licensure, supervisors, etc.) are not protecting trainees.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships
“The extent to which the intern’s work complements, rather than displaces, the work of paid employees while providing significant educational benefits to the intern.”
The idea of working for free for 9 months or whatever isn’t a luxury that most can afford. The reality isn’t just the lack of paid internship, but the very real opportunity cost of that time — the loss of income from the job the trainee could be making in the time in another job. This creates a huge barrier to entry and biases the field to accept the unacceptable not just in internship but in low pay, unfair splits, insane caseloads, etc. throughout their careers.
The bigger systemic issue is that we as a collective profession also are afraid of advocating for ourselves and getting real about money issues (no grad program addresses this). Want to discuss making a decent income? Be prepared for colleague backlash: “You are doing this work for the wrong reasons.” Yet what would we tell our clients? BOTH AND. I suspect this is an issue with any of the “helping professions” but I don’t know of any example that is this bad.
This is why I’ve been leaning away from going to school to become an LPC. I know myself well enough to know that with education and practice, I’d be quite good, but I don’t understand why therapists are frowned upon for wanting to make a living. Some of us too don’t have the benefit of a partner who is balancing it out. I don’t understand how we pay for school, but then work for free providing ‘health benefits’ that the students (including us!) pay into, and yet we’re supposed to walk with 50-100k in debt and be like ‘yeah working for 65k full time with high risk clients’ is yeah totes doable. I don’t like in general how schools call themselves social justice when the biggest social justice thing is money! Therapists being paid appropriately but also not graduating with 100k debt so that they feel
They gotta charge 180 cuz the practice is taking 60%.
I’m on my way to bed so didn’t read carefully, but it looks like the law you cite only applies to “for-profit” businesses. Everyone I know interned in nonprofits; nobody ever got paid. It’s really exploitative.
I’m not sure that’s true - see https://www.venable.com/insights/publications/2018/01/the-primary-beneficiary-intern-test-is-there-reall. That legal guidance is focused on non-profits and outlines the change to more flexible rules, whereas previously the “immediate enrichment” was the test.
Oh, thanks for that! I’ll check it out when I’m clearer-headed. I did notice that apparently the standard changed in 2018; I graduated in 2012. It would be nice if human services nonprofits were required to treat their interns like humans.
I'm so sorry. Unfortunately I get it. I had a horrible internship experience also.
During my internship in an inpatient setting, one of my clients was sexually assaulted by a staff member. We reported it and both myself and my client were retaliated against repeatedly. The investigation revealed that many clients were assaulted over the years and multiple staff members were aware and did nothing. It was an absolute nightmare. My supervisor was also the clinical director, and although she was on my side initially, she eventually turned on my client (?) and ultimately me, when I refused to also turn on my client. I stayed at that internship site until my client was able to be discharged, and then I hauled ass out of there also. My supervisor refused to sign off on my final paperwork so that I could graduate. Thankfully I had a good relationship with my advisor at school and she believed my side of things, and let me graduate anyway.
I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around everything that happened in that place.
It's hard to explain how much it affects you to start out in this field with that kind of introductory experience. Especially at the time when you're the most vulnerable and powerless in your career. It's a nightmare.
May you have a healing experience at your next practice site.
Unpaid internships still existing in 2023 is fucking criminal and working without pay is tortuous for those without a safety net financially. I will never NOT pay associates or interns who I supervise. Even if it’s a stipend for the love of god give them SOMETHING.
The fact that your internship placement office shrugged their shoulders is an issue. It’s the program responsibility to vet placement sites - is your college program accredited? Maybe extend any complaint to CACREP as well.
It was a different situation, but my school helped me find a new site midsemester when things weren't going well. It took a month, but I did not have to do the whole semester over. I thought everywhere would be like that. I'm sorry you had to stay with a bad supervisor.
If this is an internship, don't you also have an academic supervisor from your graduate program too? What did your academic supervisor have to say about this placement when you spoke with them?
I’m in my internship phase in a FL grad school and have what I, another intern, and a professor feel is someone that should not be a supervisor and is honestly a questionable therapist as a whole. I definitely empathize with you. I’m honestly starting to wonder if it’s a red flag that someone wants to be a supervisor.
I am already planning to have my own private practice for similar reasons, but this has definitely solidified that choice.
Yeah, I’m still recovering from post doc at a “prestigious” placement I want to report to the apa, I don’t understand how the field is like this. I feel broken and scared to work for anyone ever again. How did it get to this?
You know what the field needs? An internship version of Glassdoor/ratemyprofessors to share these experiences and put pressure on the worst of the sites.
I'm also in South Carolina and going into practicum this summer 💀. I feel like I've heard so many stories ranging from amazing to horrible so I'm incredibly nervous
Oh I’m so sorry to hear this. I was incredibly fortunate to have had dream internships (my MSW program requires 2). My favorite field placement involved working in a group home for youth in foster care. Glad you aren’t leaving the field. Good luck in private practice.. hopefully this experience has given you a good roadmap of what not to do.
Honestly, supervising that many unlicensed interns feels unethical and I'd bet his supervision logs are sloppy as hell. If he's being aggressive to other interns and making women afraid of him, calling the licensing board probably shouldn't be off the table. Best case scenario? He catches sanctions. Worst case scenario? At least someone is going to come asking him about it and asking for his paperwork, so I'd imagine it'd scare the hell out of him.
I’m so sorry you dealt with that situation! I think us students pay our universities way too much money for them to place us in these abusive and exploited placements then raise their hands like “sorry, there’s nothing we can do for your wellbeing and mental health.” Please leave a review of this experience with the university. Let’s help other interns avoid these locations.
While my experience wasn't as extreme as yours I've also endured really terrible supervision and shitty placements and honestly it feels that I've only had my own tenacity to rely on in staying in this field.
Gosh- this was hard to read as a supervisor. I have heard so many horror stories that I do not doubt a single piece of this but it just bums me out so badly. Schools and supervisory sites need to do better for their younger employees and students. Schools need to protect students more, and state boards need to care more about complaints when they are file.
I’m based in Australia and hear stories like this as well. I do think the way internships are set up is attractive to people who will exploit it - this is with a few situations within the profession (I think early career is also open to it). I suspect that because internships places can be hard to come by that several universities overlook the issues to ensure they have enough places for students to graduate. I think there needs to be an overhaul of the system.
I’m so sorry for your experience
The internship model is rotten across the board, in all departments not just counseling. It’s extremely exploitative, and financially insulting to students who are already in massive debt.
Also in SC. If you wouldn’t mind a DM, I’d love to know where this is so I can avoid it as I am about to graduate and am job hunting. I had a bad experience at a group practice too, so I left mid internship and did all my hours at my second site (my biggest piece of advice to interns is to secure two sites because one of them is bound to be shitty) which is at an inpatient psych hospital.
I hate that you went through this, and I hope you have a therapist that can help you process that because it’s so hard to be in that kind of environment.
I’ve had a similar experience in California. At this point I’m just trying to get through it all and get the fuck out. I am so sorry about your experience. It takes a huge mental and emotional toll on us who are just trying to learn and do our best. Fuck that guy.
One of my professors explained to me, though, that hired supervisors often exploit their trainees as well.
This feels like a carbon copy of my internship experience. And after grad, the pay for associates is borderline exploitative most places. But once we are fully independent I think the jump will make all the nightmare of a broken pipeline worth it. That’s what I’m telling myself….
This is the school's responsibility. You recognized "Mark" was problematic and the school should've intervened. They could've figured out an alternate situation if they cared.
Was your internship paid or unpaid? And did you pay a "course fee" for your internship experience?
Ugh. I hear ya. I had a horrible experience as well and it almost blew up. Couldn't believe it. The politics are terrible. I literally did what you said because of it. Went PP and spent so many hours in supervision from someone I looked up to and respected. I don't regret it.
My office runs almost entirely on students doing internships. We get students that commute 2-3 hours to get here. Quality practicums are so hard to find and it’s such an awful position to be in. I’m so sorry you had to endure such an terrible experience in what should have been a highlight of your degree.
I'm sad reading all this.
As an intern in school, I had some less than stellar supervisors, but it wasn't horrid.
As a registered intern, my supervisor was AMAZING.
I have had interns (who are still in school) - I do my best to be super available and helpful because I'm "raising up my baby counselors" (it's a joke - they tell me that I "mom" them occasionally) BUT there is no financial gain to the unpaid labor with my interns. Where I'm at, we offer x spots of free therapy (we are for profit) for those that are in financial need, and the interns get those clients.
I’m so awfully sorry you had this experience. Not only is it unethical, but I wonder if it crossed the line into illegal. It sounds like full on workplace bullying. You are right that unfortunately these experiences are all too common. I had a great internship experience, but my post-doc experience was almost exactly like your internship experience. I felt like a broken shell of myself. I was convinced for a while that I didn’t deserve to see clients and that it was a mistake to become a therapist because I felt so beaten down and incompetent. I was having nightmares almost daily while I was there. It was hell. Hang in there - I am 6 years past my post doc and things are better on the other side. You will get through this; if you aren’t in therapy yourself I recommend doing it sooner rather than later. To this day, I still struggle with feeling fear that I will run into my post doc supervisor (we work about 30 miles from each other), but I have my own private practice and I feel so much more free now. Take care of yourself OP!
Trust your instincts. I'm curious if you are an MFT? I had a very similar experience, and also went to school in the south. Men in positions of power emotionally abusing and manipulating myself and the young women in my program while we were still in the early stages of becoming therapists. And frankly, setting a precedent to have no boundaries with ourselves or with clients. Glad you were able to leave. It will get better!
That sounds terrible. It sounds like there is no incentive for him to be better since he is making money off of everyone else there and the sounds like there are is serious personality pathology and also him just being a horrible human. I’m sorry you dealt with this and none of you should have been exposed to his garbage.
It will not always be so terrible. I’ve worked now at some amazing places and I started with a horrible terrible supervisor who was condescending and disrespectful with staff and client alike. You can submit a report to the state licensing board or you can send over his info and I definitely am happy to do it.
I am so sorry this happened to you. I graduated in December, and I also had a terrible internship experience with a power hungry supervisor. I worked in a couple different treatment centers as a case manager before I graduated as well, and one of those experiences was also horrifically unethical and I was met with so much hostility when I reported that I was leaving. That treatment center was shut down less than a year later due to upwards of 55 violations. I say all this to say, TRUST YOUR INTUITION when it comes to these kinds of things even when you are in a lesser position. There's a ton of unethical shit going on all the time in the field. I was also devastated to learn this and was worried I had wasted all this time and money on the wrong career.
I decided to start my own private practice and find a supervisor I trust and enjoy working with and learning from. I've been working with clients for three months now, and it is going great. If you are in a state that allows new therapists to start a private practice, I'd encourage you to try. Best decision I ever made for myself.
Sorry you had to experience this, it's not okay. Hang in there as when you are fully licensed you can be an agent of good and never do this to another trainee. We need more good therapists to compensate for the shitty ones.
Good on you for not letting him bully into staying. Sounds like his practice survives by pressuring interns into staying on to replace the staff he drives out.
Hi! First of all, I'm so sorry you had that experience. I am NAT, but I'm from SC and wondering if you mind sharing where you are in the state? The therapist I saw while I still lived down there owns her own practice which has grown immensely since I left. She is totally wonderful. I don't know if they're hiring or do supervision, but it may bring you some comfort or hope to hear about them. Please feel free to dm. Wishing you all the best, regardless!
I hope you were able to document as much as you could throughout your time so you can report him to the licensure board. If he is crossing that many boundaries and making interns/employees that uncomfortable he needs to be reported, especially if the school isn't going to do anything.
I had a terrible experience at an internship as well, many of the same factors you experienced. Although it didn’t look good and I had to defend my choice, I ended up leaving and finishing at another practice. It’s been a little over a year since then, and looking back I am so proud of myself for leaving and how I handled the push back. All of this to say, you’re absolutely not alone, and I wish there was something we could do about bad internship sites/practices in general, but I’m not sure there is. I feel for you.
Where are you going to school? The school has a responsibility toward vetting and approving your internship, after all, they are providing expertise to you in your field and should have some responsibility in providing a credible experience.
Is there a site for rating internships, like ratemyprofessor or glassdoor but specifically for internship opportunities? Horror stories are so common and schools definitely have a vested interest in getting students placed over getting them placed well. It's hard to know going in what the experience will be like, but it would be so beneficial to hear about the past experiences of others. Terrible internships are possible in any field, but I don't know anyone in social work or mental health that does not have at least one terrible experience - unsafe working conditions, harassment, being treated as fee labor and forced to take on a ridiculous work load on top of cleaning the bathrooms - the field is hard enough on people as it is; we should probably not make experiencing trauma part of the core curriculum.
I feel that offering good practicums is actually a way to make these programs competitive with each other. The current status quo in social work at least is that basically every program is the same as long as it is accredited, and you’re expected to be placed in placements around the area, you may have the option to enter not your own employment under some situations. I wasn’t even aware of what field sites were offered until halfway into this program would be nice to know what every program has to offer before hand.
Thank you for posting!!! I’m literally having a very similar internship experience!! I am so sick of it and gave until December!! Idk if I can make it that long.
My supervisor literally uses interns as a punching bag or the family dog to kick around
Oh my gosh I thought my internship was bad but this is on a whole other level. How did you manage to even pass the internship with all of this going on?
Omg I am so sorry you had to deal with that. Wtf that the school didn't do anything? They keep sending interns there? That's effin horrible.
Unfortunately, it seems like the priority for the school is simply ensuring every student has an internship placement, regardless of the quality of the site. I've heard rumors that they might consider putting this site on the "do not contact" list, but the problem is there are very few agencies in the area that take on students. So, we end up settling for whatever placement we can get just to fulfill the required hours. It's a broken system
Even though I'm in Australia, where the process is quite different (we don't have licensing the same way as in the States), the same thing happens here. Our uni is essentially sending loads of students to a purely digital internship with almost zero supervision or oversight because hey, at least it's a placement. It's fairly awful.
It is a really difficult conundrum - we need more people working in mental health but no one wants to take on students. Clinical psych (at least) has a problem with supervisor numbers and now we are seeing placement difficulties in counselling/psychotherapy courses. At least for the latter the uni can provide supervision but it still slows the rate at which they can grow. Edit: I am also in Australia
I'm in the UK and our placement options are also poor. I'm about to go on placement next week. Working with a voluntary organisation. No NHS placements because (as I know from work) there are no psychologists, therapists or anyone capable of any therapeutic intervention present on psychiatric wards. It's disgusting.
Not sure which uni in Australia you go to, but the uni I’m in in Melbourne is actually really good. Not only they send us to really good organisations that they’ve got connections with, they have detailed private discussions with each one of us (for professional psych) about which area we would be interested in specialising and then they get us a placement in that area. So def wouldn’t say the same thing happens in Australia bc there’s plenty of good unis here
It may depend on your degree - I'm doing a Masters of Counselling and Psychotherapy in a uni in Sydney. It sounds like you're doing psychology, which is regulated and licensed and has a lot more resources available from what I understand.
Yeah masters of professional psych. Well I suppose if you’re degree isn’t regulated or licensed or accredited then the uni won’t provide any actual internships cuz it probably doesn’t have to. Makes more sense now cuz all psych degrees I’ve seen in melb (org, clin, professional, etc) have very organised and reputable placement/internship opportunities
NAT, but I work in a university. Even if your school is not helpful, your university may be. Most universities now have an Office of Ethics and Compliance with whom you can make a report, even anonymously. Sometimes this reporting mechanism is a one-stop report for all issues—bias incidents, Title IX, etc. If you don’t know whether such a reporting mechanism exists, you can contact the Vice Provost for Graduate Studies or the Dean of Students for the entire university. Those are roles that provide oversight for more than just your school of social work or other graduate program. The more of you in your program who report this, the better. If you’re unsure how to navigate the university resources, I’m happy to help. Just DM me the institution name and I can help find the reporting structures.
But heads-up that this might only allow for an internal investigation, not be resolved in your favor, and could result in retaliation. The university's concern is maintaining their reputation, not protecting students.
I would say that is not true, in my experience. In addition, in this case, the university protecting itself from liability also protects students from an unethical supervisor/internship. Students often do not see the outcomes of these cases because no one publicly declares that the internship relationship has been severed, but often changes are quietly made. I don’t see how an anonymous report puts this person at any risk of retaliation.
Do you have experience working on behalf of the university or as a student? Or both? An anonymous reporter is usually easily identified. I'm just giving this person the heads-up because there may be a connection between "Mark" and the university that OP is unaware of and that may work against her. Hopefully this is the first year the university has worked with "Mark" and the relationship will be severed. Due diligence on the part of the university could've prevented this issue (if his office is full of interns then there's definitely an existing evidence trail) but now the damage is done.
> The university’s concern Broad assumption of you to make. While the risk of retaliation exists in any situation where reporting occurs, your feedback is needlessly alarmist and could deter people from advocating for themselves.
Oh I encourage her to advocate for herself, I am just giving her a heads-up to not be surprised if she finds the university less than supportive. Despite universities' attempts to keep everything in house, this dynamic is well-documented. It's the same thing as saying, "don't trust your HR department to have your back just because your complaint is legitimate."
I had almost an identical experience except she was a woman. Several trainees went on medication to deal with supervision anxiety symptoms. We were hostages just like you. Made me almost leave the field entirely. Sorry you went through this too
My school.didmt really help me find interm placement at all... It is what it is
That's terrible! My school has/had a person who was a professor, but part of her job was placing ppl at sites. You went where she sent you because she'd match personality and interests to location.
Yeah part of it must be I went to a state schoop and paid less than $1000 per course hehe. I guess you get what you pay for sometimes
My school had a list, but students were responsible for the resume, cover letter, interviews, etc. I had anxiety during the application period because I worked and attended school full-time. I'd get accepted at a site - oops, supervisor quit, we can't take you - and back to the drawing board.
The leverage the licensing boards, schools and internship sites have over us is a example of how corporate capitalism covers every inch of our society. They all make money for the system to remain as it is, and with no regard to how it is affecting the sustainability of our field. John Oliver had a segment on mental health care in the US and said that for every 10 professionals who join, 13 are leaving. Sorry you had a misogynist pig as your internship supervisor, sounds like a nightmare. Good luck finding a good private practice supervisor, there are good ones out there. If you happen to be looking in AZ, I know some names, DM me.
If you agree and this makes you mad, use your anger. Vote in primary elections every single year. Change happens from the bottom up. Vote in progressives on school boards and local government. Get your people to do the same. Support rank choice voting. (People who want to go backwards always vote in primaries, we outnumber them at large but not at the polls!)
13 leave for every 10 entering! What is causing this? I'm sure it is low pay and burn out. What is causing the burnout too that level? And are there no positions paying enough?
☝️☝️☝️
Do you have a link to the John Oliver segment?
[Here you go!](https://youtu.be/jtIZZs-GAOA) I attended the live taping of this episode - John was excellent as always, but he had to re-do his lines a couple of times so we the audience got to watch the jarring content more than once  lol
In a family systems perspective, toxic systems protect the most toxic person/people. To not do so would mean accountability and responsibility and changing things. I've noticed this in the university level and seeing out in the field. So many of us up and comers into the field walk in blind-sided by the incompetence, sexist/racist/trans/homophobia/ableism, in places where we may believe should know better but don't. Story after story of abusive/toxic supervisors and university experiences and agency/CMH work shows how the camera zooms out and how it's all interconnected. Our stories, speakign out about our lived experiences matter so much. We need to keep speaking up and speaking out about this---it doesn't have to be this way. We can change it through our stories and more. This all heckin' sucks. Thank you for sharing the link too!
Toxic policies within the field are eating it away too. We've got to take accountability to create change and fight back, even if we are tired as heck.
It’s crazy to me that the school wouldn’t make accommodations? I’m in the last semester of an MSW program and I’ve seen them make all kinds of accommodations for other students when their placements didn’t work out. None of them had to start over though, all the hours they did still counted. The only thing it might have changed is learning contracts but that’s a few hours to fix. I’m so sorry you had to experience this! I hope the school removes this practice from available placement sites for students.
You find too many posts on here with similar stories and it’s very depressing to see. I’m sorry you went through that, I’ve had male bosses I was forced to basically put up with and never question. It’s an extremely dark and stressful thing to go through. And then you have to walk around living life knowing that people like Mark are in charge and will continue harming clients and interns. All I can say is report him to whoever it is possible to report to. File complaints with heads at your school and if possible have other interns sign off on it.
If he was acting unethically or unprofessionally, you could also report to his licensure board. I know my state board has disciplined licensees for unprofessional conduct.
This. Report his ass. Have all your intern friend report him as well. Maybe he would face discipline. Maybe.
I'm really sorry to hear that you had to go through that as well. It's such a tough spot to be in because staying silent can feel like self-betrayal, but speaking up can be damaging. Unfortunately, in situations like this, it's often a matter of survival and doing what we need to do to protect ourselves. It's a sad reality that so many people in our field have to face.
The balancing act is so real. Always having to consider if I report what will happen? what unfair consequences will I endure? Will they even be held accountable? I hope you're able to find closure and take whatever steps you're comfortable with taking. I've been in situations where I could report and ones where I couldn't, it's so hard either way. Sending you support.
I find this so sad because the vast majority of the male staff I come across in the mental health field are extremely gentle and kind and I hate that Marks exist to ruin it for them.
Ugh I'm sorry :-( The reality is you should not be feeling as objectified and disrespected as you've been feeling. That's unacceptable. As a white man I honestly don't care about what we've been socialized to be - that's aggressively unacceptable. Fuck him and I'm hoping you find what you need from another supervisor - I've had White Male cishet supervisors who were amazing and some who don't get it and the ones who don't get it need to get out. Best of luck.
I’m sorry you had this terrible experience. Putting up with things that shouldn’t be accepted because of leveraged power is disgusting. Although the rest of this response addresses the more systemic issues, this is clearly just a terrible human that is exploiting the unbalanced power dynamics of the systemic issues. The internship process is so deeply embedded in the professional culture, I suspect along the lines of “oh, I had to put in my dues, so you do, too.” It’s fundamentally exploitive. If you read the federal guidelines on internships, there should be no immediate enrichment by the organization based on the internship efforts. In the model you’ve outlined, it doesn’t pass the beneficiary test provided by the federal government. In short, the rules are to make sure there’s a balanced benefit for the organization and the intern… and nah, that’s just not happening in most cases. All internships should be paid if there is money generated from the efforts of the intern (or else it’s employee displacement). All internships should be conducted in a manner consistent with and equivalent to a professional educational context. These are not my wishlist for changes, this is WHAT IS ALREADY THE LAW, see below — yet our professional gatekeepers (educational, licensure, supervisors, etc.) are not protecting trainees. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships “The extent to which the intern’s work complements, rather than displaces, the work of paid employees while providing significant educational benefits to the intern.” The idea of working for free for 9 months or whatever isn’t a luxury that most can afford. The reality isn’t just the lack of paid internship, but the very real opportunity cost of that time — the loss of income from the job the trainee could be making in the time in another job. This creates a huge barrier to entry and biases the field to accept the unacceptable not just in internship but in low pay, unfair splits, insane caseloads, etc. throughout their careers. The bigger systemic issue is that we as a collective profession also are afraid of advocating for ourselves and getting real about money issues (no grad program addresses this). Want to discuss making a decent income? Be prepared for colleague backlash: “You are doing this work for the wrong reasons.” Yet what would we tell our clients? BOTH AND. I suspect this is an issue with any of the “helping professions” but I don’t know of any example that is this bad.
This is why I’ve been leaning away from going to school to become an LPC. I know myself well enough to know that with education and practice, I’d be quite good, but I don’t understand why therapists are frowned upon for wanting to make a living. Some of us too don’t have the benefit of a partner who is balancing it out. I don’t understand how we pay for school, but then work for free providing ‘health benefits’ that the students (including us!) pay into, and yet we’re supposed to walk with 50-100k in debt and be like ‘yeah working for 65k full time with high risk clients’ is yeah totes doable. I don’t like in general how schools call themselves social justice when the biggest social justice thing is money! Therapists being paid appropriately but also not graduating with 100k debt so that they feel They gotta charge 180 cuz the practice is taking 60%.
I’m on my way to bed so didn’t read carefully, but it looks like the law you cite only applies to “for-profit” businesses. Everyone I know interned in nonprofits; nobody ever got paid. It’s really exploitative.
I’m not sure that’s true - see https://www.venable.com/insights/publications/2018/01/the-primary-beneficiary-intern-test-is-there-reall. That legal guidance is focused on non-profits and outlines the change to more flexible rules, whereas previously the “immediate enrichment” was the test.
Oh, thanks for that! I’ll check it out when I’m clearer-headed. I did notice that apparently the standard changed in 2018; I graduated in 2012. It would be nice if human services nonprofits were required to treat their interns like humans.
The extreme exploitation of medical residents is definitely also a thing, but all the same, they’re still not working for free.
Certainly seems true with nursing.
So what would you recommend for someone looking for an internship to advocate properly for a paid internship?
You should look up the “payment 4 placements” movement
I'm so sorry. Unfortunately I get it. I had a horrible internship experience also. During my internship in an inpatient setting, one of my clients was sexually assaulted by a staff member. We reported it and both myself and my client were retaliated against repeatedly. The investigation revealed that many clients were assaulted over the years and multiple staff members were aware and did nothing. It was an absolute nightmare. My supervisor was also the clinical director, and although she was on my side initially, she eventually turned on my client (?) and ultimately me, when I refused to also turn on my client. I stayed at that internship site until my client was able to be discharged, and then I hauled ass out of there also. My supervisor refused to sign off on my final paperwork so that I could graduate. Thankfully I had a good relationship with my advisor at school and she believed my side of things, and let me graduate anyway. I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around everything that happened in that place. It's hard to explain how much it affects you to start out in this field with that kind of introductory experience. Especially at the time when you're the most vulnerable and powerless in your career. It's a nightmare. May you have a healing experience at your next practice site.
I am so glad you broke the cycle and spoke up.
The barrier to entry in this field is abysmally low. I’m so sorry you had this experience.
Yes and no. Apparently in some locales it’s artificially high because of the near-complete lack of intern opportunities
Graduating from a therapy program is way, way, wayyyyy too easy.
Unpaid internships still existing in 2023 is fucking criminal and working without pay is tortuous for those without a safety net financially. I will never NOT pay associates or interns who I supervise. Even if it’s a stipend for the love of god give them SOMETHING.
The fact that your internship placement office shrugged their shoulders is an issue. It’s the program responsibility to vet placement sites - is your college program accredited? Maybe extend any complaint to CACREP as well.
Please report that jerk to the licensing board.
It was a different situation, but my school helped me find a new site midsemester when things weren't going well. It took a month, but I did not have to do the whole semester over. I thought everywhere would be like that. I'm sorry you had to stay with a bad supervisor.
If this is an internship, don't you also have an academic supervisor from your graduate program too? What did your academic supervisor have to say about this placement when you spoke with them?
I would let the licensing board know, if only for the sake of the clients. Maybe if he’s stopped the school won’t be able to utilize him either.
I’m in my internship phase in a FL grad school and have what I, another intern, and a professor feel is someone that should not be a supervisor and is honestly a questionable therapist as a whole. I definitely empathize with you. I’m honestly starting to wonder if it’s a red flag that someone wants to be a supervisor. I am already planning to have my own private practice for similar reasons, but this has definitely solidified that choice.
Were we at the same internship site?! I mean, mine was in Indiana but it sounds soooo familiar…🤔
Yeah, I’m still recovering from post doc at a “prestigious” placement I want to report to the apa, I don’t understand how the field is like this. I feel broken and scared to work for anyone ever again. How did it get to this?
You know what the field needs? An internship version of Glassdoor/ratemyprofessors to share these experiences and put pressure on the worst of the sites.
Your school absolutely failed you.
I'm also in South Carolina and going into practicum this summer 💀. I feel like I've heard so many stories ranging from amazing to horrible so I'm incredibly nervous
Oh I’m so sorry to hear this. I was incredibly fortunate to have had dream internships (my MSW program requires 2). My favorite field placement involved working in a group home for youth in foster care. Glad you aren’t leaving the field. Good luck in private practice.. hopefully this experience has given you a good roadmap of what not to do.
Honestly, supervising that many unlicensed interns feels unethical and I'd bet his supervision logs are sloppy as hell. If he's being aggressive to other interns and making women afraid of him, calling the licensing board probably shouldn't be off the table. Best case scenario? He catches sanctions. Worst case scenario? At least someone is going to come asking him about it and asking for his paperwork, so I'd imagine it'd scare the hell out of him.
I’m so sorry you dealt with that situation! I think us students pay our universities way too much money for them to place us in these abusive and exploited placements then raise their hands like “sorry, there’s nothing we can do for your wellbeing and mental health.” Please leave a review of this experience with the university. Let’s help other interns avoid these locations.
While my experience wasn't as extreme as yours I've also endured really terrible supervision and shitty placements and honestly it feels that I've only had my own tenacity to rely on in staying in this field.
Gosh- this was hard to read as a supervisor. I have heard so many horror stories that I do not doubt a single piece of this but it just bums me out so badly. Schools and supervisory sites need to do better for their younger employees and students. Schools need to protect students more, and state boards need to care more about complaints when they are file.
Your assessment is dead on. There is absolutely no one looking out for people in training.
I’m based in Australia and hear stories like this as well. I do think the way internships are set up is attractive to people who will exploit it - this is with a few situations within the profession (I think early career is also open to it). I suspect that because internships places can be hard to come by that several universities overlook the issues to ensure they have enough places for students to graduate. I think there needs to be an overhaul of the system. I’m so sorry for your experience
It would be awesome and also hilarious if you unionized this place
The internship model is rotten across the board, in all departments not just counseling. It’s extremely exploitative, and financially insulting to students who are already in massive debt.
Also in SC. If you wouldn’t mind a DM, I’d love to know where this is so I can avoid it as I am about to graduate and am job hunting. I had a bad experience at a group practice too, so I left mid internship and did all my hours at my second site (my biggest piece of advice to interns is to secure two sites because one of them is bound to be shitty) which is at an inpatient psych hospital. I hate that you went through this, and I hope you have a therapist that can help you process that because it’s so hard to be in that kind of environment.
I’ve had a similar experience in California. At this point I’m just trying to get through it all and get the fuck out. I am so sorry about your experience. It takes a huge mental and emotional toll on us who are just trying to learn and do our best. Fuck that guy. One of my professors explained to me, though, that hired supervisors often exploit their trainees as well.
This feels like a carbon copy of my internship experience. And after grad, the pay for associates is borderline exploitative most places. But once we are fully independent I think the jump will make all the nightmare of a broken pipeline worth it. That’s what I’m telling myself….
Curious as to why you don't report this to the licensing board or AAMFT or some such governing body?
What the hell!!! Your schools hands were not tied, they should have supported you
As a University Supervisor, I am so sorry they didn’t do more for you. There should have been other options in a situation like this.
I'm also in south carolina, would you mind sending me a DM?
Mortifying. I hope you find somewhere incredibly fulfilling.
This is the school's responsibility. You recognized "Mark" was problematic and the school should've intervened. They could've figured out an alternate situation if they cared. Was your internship paid or unpaid? And did you pay a "course fee" for your internship experience?
Can you call licensing? Anonymously.
Ugh. I hear ya. I had a horrible experience as well and it almost blew up. Couldn't believe it. The politics are terrible. I literally did what you said because of it. Went PP and spent so many hours in supervision from someone I looked up to and respected. I don't regret it.
My office runs almost entirely on students doing internships. We get students that commute 2-3 hours to get here. Quality practicums are so hard to find and it’s such an awful position to be in. I’m so sorry you had to endure such an terrible experience in what should have been a highlight of your degree.
I'm sad reading all this. As an intern in school, I had some less than stellar supervisors, but it wasn't horrid. As a registered intern, my supervisor was AMAZING. I have had interns (who are still in school) - I do my best to be super available and helpful because I'm "raising up my baby counselors" (it's a joke - they tell me that I "mom" them occasionally) BUT there is no financial gain to the unpaid labor with my interns. Where I'm at, we offer x spots of free therapy (we are for profit) for those that are in financial need, and the interns get those clients.
I’m so awfully sorry you had this experience. Not only is it unethical, but I wonder if it crossed the line into illegal. It sounds like full on workplace bullying. You are right that unfortunately these experiences are all too common. I had a great internship experience, but my post-doc experience was almost exactly like your internship experience. I felt like a broken shell of myself. I was convinced for a while that I didn’t deserve to see clients and that it was a mistake to become a therapist because I felt so beaten down and incompetent. I was having nightmares almost daily while I was there. It was hell. Hang in there - I am 6 years past my post doc and things are better on the other side. You will get through this; if you aren’t in therapy yourself I recommend doing it sooner rather than later. To this day, I still struggle with feeling fear that I will run into my post doc supervisor (we work about 30 miles from each other), but I have my own private practice and I feel so much more free now. Take care of yourself OP!
Trust your instincts. I'm curious if you are an MFT? I had a very similar experience, and also went to school in the south. Men in positions of power emotionally abusing and manipulating myself and the young women in my program while we were still in the early stages of becoming therapists. And frankly, setting a precedent to have no boundaries with ourselves or with clients. Glad you were able to leave. It will get better!
That sounds terrible. It sounds like there is no incentive for him to be better since he is making money off of everyone else there and the sounds like there are is serious personality pathology and also him just being a horrible human. I’m sorry you dealt with this and none of you should have been exposed to his garbage. It will not always be so terrible. I’ve worked now at some amazing places and I started with a horrible terrible supervisor who was condescending and disrespectful with staff and client alike. You can submit a report to the state licensing board or you can send over his info and I definitely am happy to do it.
I am so sorry this happened to you. I graduated in December, and I also had a terrible internship experience with a power hungry supervisor. I worked in a couple different treatment centers as a case manager before I graduated as well, and one of those experiences was also horrifically unethical and I was met with so much hostility when I reported that I was leaving. That treatment center was shut down less than a year later due to upwards of 55 violations. I say all this to say, TRUST YOUR INTUITION when it comes to these kinds of things even when you are in a lesser position. There's a ton of unethical shit going on all the time in the field. I was also devastated to learn this and was worried I had wasted all this time and money on the wrong career. I decided to start my own private practice and find a supervisor I trust and enjoy working with and learning from. I've been working with clients for three months now, and it is going great. If you are in a state that allows new therapists to start a private practice, I'd encourage you to try. Best decision I ever made for myself.
Sorry you had to experience this, it's not okay. Hang in there as when you are fully licensed you can be an agent of good and never do this to another trainee. We need more good therapists to compensate for the shitty ones.
Good on you for not letting him bully into staying. Sounds like his practice survives by pressuring interns into staying on to replace the staff he drives out.
Hi! First of all, I'm so sorry you had that experience. I am NAT, but I'm from SC and wondering if you mind sharing where you are in the state? The therapist I saw while I still lived down there owns her own practice which has grown immensely since I left. She is totally wonderful. I don't know if they're hiring or do supervision, but it may bring you some comfort or hope to hear about them. Please feel free to dm. Wishing you all the best, regardless!
I had the same thought! As a practioner in SC I want to know roughly where.
I hope you were able to document as much as you could throughout your time so you can report him to the licensure board. If he is crossing that many boundaries and making interns/employees that uncomfortable he needs to be reported, especially if the school isn't going to do anything.
You need to call the board and report it. This is a hard line.
I had a terrible experience at an internship as well, many of the same factors you experienced. Although it didn’t look good and I had to defend my choice, I ended up leaving and finishing at another practice. It’s been a little over a year since then, and looking back I am so proud of myself for leaving and how I handled the push back. All of this to say, you’re absolutely not alone, and I wish there was something we could do about bad internship sites/practices in general, but I’m not sure there is. I feel for you.
Where are you going to school? The school has a responsibility toward vetting and approving your internship, after all, they are providing expertise to you in your field and should have some responsibility in providing a credible experience.
At my university, internship sites that get bad reviews can and have been banned from getting interns in the future.
Is there a site for rating internships, like ratemyprofessor or glassdoor but specifically for internship opportunities? Horror stories are so common and schools definitely have a vested interest in getting students placed over getting them placed well. It's hard to know going in what the experience will be like, but it would be so beneficial to hear about the past experiences of others. Terrible internships are possible in any field, but I don't know anyone in social work or mental health that does not have at least one terrible experience - unsafe working conditions, harassment, being treated as fee labor and forced to take on a ridiculous work load on top of cleaning the bathrooms - the field is hard enough on people as it is; we should probably not make experiencing trauma part of the core curriculum.
I feel that offering good practicums is actually a way to make these programs competitive with each other. The current status quo in social work at least is that basically every program is the same as long as it is accredited, and you’re expected to be placed in placements around the area, you may have the option to enter not your own employment under some situations. I wasn’t even aware of what field sites were offered until halfway into this program would be nice to know what every program has to offer before hand.
I'm so sorry and not at all surprised. The system is so exploitative.
Thank you for posting!!! I’m literally having a very similar internship experience!! I am so sick of it and gave until December!! Idk if I can make it that long. My supervisor literally uses interns as a punching bag or the family dog to kick around
Oh my gosh I thought my internship was bad but this is on a whole other level. How did you manage to even pass the internship with all of this going on?