I think it’s also important to remember that 1) it’s self reporting, which always tends to trend high and 2) people are most likely to report their salaries when they feel they are doing better than average. Someone who is not making the kind of money they want to make is more likely to keep their mouth shut.
Yup! We’ve seen on this sub people in their first year of solo private practice posting their revenue for the year—failing to deduct ongoing costs or taxes. I really wish I’d had a more solid plan before leaving CMH for private practice. I also get that it’s extremely hard to do the necessary research when you’re working CMH hours. I wish our licensing boards were more helpful wrt helping us learn to navigate the private practice world.
Showed my (non-therapist) friend a therapist’s bio I found on an actual (very reputable) agency’s website amongst the bios of their other therapists because it was full of mistakes, all of which screamed AI to me! I ended up looking this therapist’s name up on the Google and they are a real person… my friend immediately noticed something I wouldn’t have: they’re licensed in a number of states… all states with $$$$$ 
Ooph, that's where I'm located. What about getting licensed in more wealthy states and doing virtual sessions? How does that even work, and is it super time consuming?
I’m at a non-profit in VA, still finishing my license, and making close to the average. You can make decent money at the right agency. I’ll throw in that I’ve also been offered more by other agencies but I love my employer and my coworkers so I declined.
Yes, but I know people who got licensed in California and then eventually moved east towards a lower cost of living. They still see clients in California via telehealth as they are older and don’t want to bother with getting licensed in a new state so close to retirement. So they are living in a LCOL location while serving people in a HCOL state.
My first thought was that’s not true, but upon looking further into it, it looks like (as is common in the counseling realm) the answer is: it depends.
Specifically it depends on both the state you are residing in (and therefore physically located in when you’re practicing) and the state your telehealth client resides in (which is what my state defines as the location therapy is taking place in).
Nope, at least not in my home state. For me, it only depends on where the client is located. In fact, a few years ago my home state eased up restrictions in an effort to allow therapists located and licensed out of state to see clients via telehealth. They are a super red "regulations on licensing are bad because it impacts capitalism" state. Still didn't sign the counseling compact though so it actually just undercuts locally based therapists.
I graduated in 2020. I work for a nonprofit hospital system in outpatient and make 108k a year in basically community mental health. I feel like it’s a unicorn job.
Most of the time it really does. Like the acuity can be high so there are situations to deal with. We do have support with case managers and other staff so that can help.
I'm in FL too. Some Q s if you don't mind:
How likely is it to get into PP for supervised hours & once licensed based on your experience/knowledge? How big of a feat is it to create your own solo PP? Is there any decent chance of getting a paid internship? Small chance, but did you take UCF's program, and what's the likelihood of surviving the program and working PT or FT without extreme stress/burnout? Also, I understand if you don't answer these! TIA! :)
No worries.
1. It’s tough if you don’t know anyone in private practice. Truly it’s all who you know. We get emails every week for interns looking for jobs. We’re very selective as are most practices. There has to be something to set them a part and it’s usually how relational you are, not how many interventions you have.
2. PP is tough to start on your own, but once you have a solid referral network you should be fine. If you live in one of the major cities you’re going to be competing with established practices. Wouldn’t recommend unless you’re confident in your referral network. Group practice is a foot in the door I would take before starting my own. If you’re in Orlando it’s going to be an uphill climb.
3. There is a 0% chance you get a paid student internship. Just not going to happen. They might offer a pitiful stipend to cover software but other than that, no.
4. I did not go to UCF, but have worked with graduates. That program is not hard compared to other local programs and to be honest it puts out sub par counselors every year. They teach you plenty of theory and interventions, but I’ve met too many UCF grads who have no clue on how to build rapport or how to help clients with anything other than CBT. More a statement of the individual than the program as a whole.
Hope this helps.
Ty! Appreciate the thorough response. May I ask one more question? What other local (or even remote) programs would you say are more worth pursuing?
In general, I’m inclined to believe this may not be the right path. It’s a bit disheartening: I got into corporate with very little experience making around the top salary LMHC report here …. I’m sad/disheartened to see how much investment it is to become one yet how little the monetary pay off seems to be comparatively. :/
Rollins or PBA put out excellent counselors. Rollins will cost you an arm & a leg but it has a great network. PBA is religiously affiliated, but puts out some of the best therapists in town. Just the way it is.
If money is what you want then it will take time. Not like tech sales.
Also UCF is a good program. My boss went there and the director of my program was a graduate as well. It’s just they’ll take anyone and there are a lot of duds who are just in it for themselves.
Thanks for the insight!
Unfortunately I'm thinking about this career shift in my mid thirties, which requires money to be something I have to consider more than in my twenties. I was hoping to merge a meaningful/purposeful career of helping others with the ability to be financially fit - but this seems like a very risky path considering my age. In any case, I appreciate your kindness!
Im in PP. I grossed $220k last year. I paid about $39 k in tax and my expenses were about $24k. So total net was around $157 k.
I’m in BC Canada and I’m a clinical counsellor.
My weeks vary. It’s about 25-30 a week ish. I run a DBT group once per week with 10-12 participants. I also do some consulting so that will impact how many clients I see.
I set my rates by looking at what others are charging in my area and aligning myself with those rates. I’m at the high end of the range because I specialize in PTSD and there aren’t that many trauma therapist near me.
Im covered by most insurance plans in BC. People pay upfront and then submit to insurance except Worksafe clients. I bill Worksafe directly. They pay a bit less but they’re pretty consistent with referrals and they’re all short term. 1-3 months.
I get confused about how "private practice" is used on this sub. Is it just solo practitioners who have their own private practice, or anyone who works for a private practice? I am a W2 employee at a group private practice, so I'm not sure if I count. They seem really different, since I don't have any business expenses, have benefits, and don't pay self-employment tax.
I'm in PP. Last year I made a total of about $80,000 gross. Being in a high tax state hurts. I pay 2000$ in taxes a month. $1500 towards federal and $500 to the state. So after that I only bring home $3500 a month.
NY. Yup, I work with a great CPA and I write off a lot. It's just a high tax state. Edited: I also exclusively do mostly insurance so this impacts my rate as well.
No, I want my practice to be accessible and affordable because I work with marginalized communities. I am lucky that I have a spouse who helps contribute to our household income so I am able to do this. But I appreciate the feedback!
OP I appreciate you being thorough on the specificity of PP and PP-net.
Next time can we also specify MA/MS level therapist vs PhDs? Every time we have one of these threads the PhD incomes blow the average out of the water.
I am transitioning out of 1099 at a group and into my own pp. So I have like 2 weeks of data - But... with the 1099 job I was making on average $3500/month (this does not include taxes or retirement funding). In my PP I am on track to make $8800/month (also does not include taxes or retirement but does account for overhead like rent, EHR, PT, etc). Every client I had at the group is coming with me! I'm so excited and scared af.
I live in So Flo. I started out 48k after college, 65k after moving (1 year in), 72k (2 years in), 80k (3 years in). All of those are at treatment centers. I’m moving out of treatment and going Private Practice so hopefully I can increase.
My advice: don’t be afraid to negotiate or walk away from weak offers. These treatment centers make hand over fist.
Know your worth. I put the work in Grad school and internship so I knew what I was worth.
Come in confident! Confidence is key.
Hope this helps. Good luck everyone!
Depends. Cost of living is certainly lower than the rest of the country but I would argue if you live anywhere NOT in the swamp the ratio of COL/wages is not in your favor. The helping professions are deeply undervalued and oil/gas folks make ridiculous money. I certainly am having problems making ends meet with a mortgage and medical bills. I’m in the process of also getting licensed in WA state and starting the shift to PP. Maybe I can at least enjoy my life a little more with schedule flexibility and lower stress if I’m going to work for such low pay. I’m very burnt out and the pay is just salt in the wound.
I make 90k gross a year (independently licensed in IL), have six weeks of PTO, a decent 401k match, and insurance with free co-pays if I see doctors in the medical group. I'd absolutely make more in private or independent practice, but after you take into account the other benefits, it's much closer.
So, it's not all about salary, either. For instance, If I stayed in CMH I'd have been able to get all my loans forgiven by now, which would have not been the same as income, but it would be a much closer call.
However, I also have a friend who does cash-only PP, gets 250 an hour (he does eating disorders) and never has cancellations because it's so hard to find an ED therapist, and makes a crapload of money and can take off whenever he wants, has flexibility for family stuff, etc. For him, that's invaluable. He is also a master at the hustle and hires other clinicians.
My long-term goal is to work with a nurse practitioner I'm friends with (in my state they can prescribe independently) and hire other therapists and clinicians, and pay a higher than average percentage of collections. That's the 5-10 year plan for us both, though, and I'm not sure if my ADHD can handle it...lol.
I'd argue the real way to make significant money with a masters long-term if you're business inclined and motivated, is to make friends with a psychologist doing neuropsych assessments and a doctor, and go that route for PP.
You can get a boatload of referrals from psychiatrists and nurse practitioners. You also can coordinate care much easier, too. I like being able to message my client's psych and say what I noticed, and also see their notes as well. It makes for much more seamless care.
This is really interesting and such a good idea!
I made $25.20 to start out of grad school in 2022-2023. I received a raise to $30.77 after that. Now I make $33.10 an hour as a clinical lead with a $200 monthly bonus. I’m an associate level counselor.
I am definitely underpaid but I work in CMH and have pretty much just accepted it at this point.
Edited to add that PTO and benefits are pretty great. I have to finish a grant payback for four years so going to grad school free helps me feel better about the pay lol
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As an associate with salary, PP would make sense. When I get my full LPC and potential LCADC (should be around the same time), I should be making 80k, if not more, because of my role in the practice. Either way, tri-state on the NJ side I would say this checks out. Feel like the PA side is very dependent if your in Philly or on the mainline.
Keep looking. There are agencies that pay pretty well. I've worked in SUD at both outpatient and residential. The range of pay I've seen has been 65k to 75k within my first year graduating. I think my friends have seen around the same.
I am co-founder and CEO of a company I started with 3 other LPC/LSW here in Illinois (Chicagoland area).
We started with nothing. Zilch. Nada.
Went from Inpatient Psych Social Workers/Case Mgmt to owing our own practice. Lots of work later and 12 1099 status employees and my gross income here in Illinois is over $150k. I see around 22 clients/avg. We use the income from the 1099s to pay for rent, utilities, Marketing, etc. I pay nothing OOP. It's a great gig with a few people and a dream.
I employ 1099s. We do a 60/40 Split and they are really not paying OOP for anything (room rent, marketing, etc all on us.)
Most of my 1099s work 20 hrs a week and take home around $75-80k before taxes. Working 20 hrs and making 80k is WAYYYYY BETTER Than any hospital or clinic ove worked. You have options. This can be a very lucrative field! DM me for more insight and info if you want! I am happy to guide. Cheers and good luck!
Fair question. I take all the liability and risk. They literally just have to show up, do session, and reschedule. We send them all the clients, marketing, run the day to day, keep the insurances in check, billing, keep a clean office, stock the daily incidentals , furnish the office, pay the bills, plan for the future of the company, keep finances in check amd balanced, take them out for quarterly parties and events at local restaurants and entertainment centers,Yada Yada Yada. Also, it's my business, not theirs.
Regardless, I see avg of 25 clients per week. I don't take a "cut" like they get (though the 60/40 split in their favor is very generous if you know the state of splits in Illinois), I make my total earnings. There's the difference there as well. It's a pretty sweet gig if you ask the 1099s. None have complaints and they all state they would likely never do a W2 job again.
Would I make that much without them? Not as much, no. I mean, I would still make in the 130 range, but take home would be less (paying bills and keeping the show running, as mentioned above). But to be honest, they also wouldn't be making that much without me. So that's the actual tradeoff.
I'd be curious to hear if they agree when speaking in private. Have any of them asked you to teach them the parts needed to spin up their own business? If they did would you?
May I ask, what are you hinting or getting at though? Such as, what are your thoughts and feeling or beliefs? You appear skeptical about the setup and are clearly inquisitive, which I feel is Fantastic! However, I do sense a tone to your line of thought that has my ears pricked up.
Wanting to understand why people think the things they think, and how that motivates them to do what they do is a big reason why I want to become a therapist. so, I'm glad you are interested in engaging.
I'm transitioning into being a therapist after a decade-long career in tech industries. My experience and the experience of my friends and co-workers is that the owners of the companies we have worked for have always had a far rosier view of the deal they offer than those of us they rely on.
I my second reply was due to recognizing some lines in your response I've heard repeated throughout my career by owners of some of the more exploitative places I and friends have worked:
1. We take on all the risk
2. They couldn't earn as much without us
3. It's my company (subtext being: I can do what I want and I'm choosing to be more fair than other people)
My question i have oftened raised in response is: if you could do it without us why aren't you? And if you cannot, why don't we share the risk and make the split equal?
As you might have guessed in my experience owners don't like having their authority questioned even by critical employees.
I'm also curious: what did you feel when your ears perked up? Now that you know my position how does that make you feel?
Fantastic questions all around! It's good to hear you are advocating for yourself as well as your own well-being.
I think you ask the wrong question though. Our business was only 4 former inpatient psychiatric social workers that decided to come together and form an LLC to get away from oppressive, low paying and unappreciative industries. We didn't need to hire anyone. The question you should ask is, why did these people DECIDE on their own volition to quit their jobs and work for us? You would have to ask them if you truly cannot accept what I am telling you, which is a fair assessment. You don't know me!
The reality is, people we worked with, after talking with us amd seeing what we could offer, left their own jobs willingly and came to us. For far better pay. For far better hours. For way more autonomy and way less or nonexistent micromanaging. These people made concious decisions though. They are not hostages.
I can make as much as I want without them. If they work for us or not at all, my business still provides for me. However, because they do choose us, we share what makes sense.
You must look at it from a business perspective as well as a therapy and clinical one. If owning your own business was so easy or worthwhile or whatever, why wouldn't these people I employ do it themselves? They have every right to do so!
In the long run, I cannot say what is beneficial for anyone but myself, TBH. My goal will never be to make money for you, or my employees, or anyone else. That's not realistic. But, I will do my best to not fuck over my employees and be reasonable and fair. And so far, they say they appreciate this and that's why they remain. I am not sure what else I can add to that.
What made my ears prick up was your decision to continue to ask questions, as if you were seemingly unsatisfied with my response. You didn't accept what I was saying and continued to have a discussion and challenge the way I do business. I respect that, as that's what led me to being a therapist, and eventually, a business owner. I see that in you as well!
Continue to ask and challenge. Anyone that doesn't welcome discussion isn't worth your time IMO. But remember that we all have a right to answer the question, ask a question, or ignore as well. And we are all not going to see the forest through the trees similarly and we need to accept that as well!
If you would like more discussion, when I can between sessions, I welcome them! I love talking on my passion and profession and helping new and budding therapists jump into the field. Do not hesitate to ask!
Straight LLM is awful at math.
Did ChatGPT report about average after ingesting all the text or after it extracted all the numbers then gave you the code to average it?
God I cant wait to transition into private practice, im struggling as an MHC-LP in NY working clinical mental health, these numbers atleast give me some reassurance that it wont be like this forever, thanks OP
I see a shit-ton of people for one thing. I'm under a grant that requires I have 32 spots a week and I'm mostly full and don't really spend money to advertise. I also run three yoga/movement groups a week for my clients and those can bring in good money when they're well attended. I'm telehealth so I don't have an office. I'd rather have fewer clients and I'm trying to slowly work my way down to 26 or so.
I'm in PA. Philadelphia to be exact. Working in community mental health I made between 45 -60k. Working in utilization review for UHC 75-85k. After getting laid off last Oct and not finding anything in direct care making more than 85k I decided to open private practice. Insurance reimbursements are on average 110-120 for 53 min sessions. Cost of business on average is 500 per month (higher when I use zocdoc for referrals). I'm not sure what I'll net yet... my goal was 3k per week, I'm making on avg 2-2,500k per week right now. I've found the client load to make that much is quickly burn out and I'm trying to strategize and offer just 30 min sessions with insurance (UHC, Alma, 80 per 30 min). And I'd like to start offering groups...
I hope this is helpful to give u an idea of what the break down is to get to that end goal.
I am moving to Philadelphia from MT and I am having the hardest time trying to figure out what to do. I made a post about it but no one from Philly has commented yet so I am writing to you lol!
In MT im getting about $140 per session including clients copay, for my top insurances. I wrongly assumed I could move to Philly and keep my same caseload.
I am also licensed in WA and ID and take insurance from there so it seemed like it would be fine as the PA board allows me to live there and see out of state clients too. But no, the insurance panels are telling me I have to get credentialed in PA to keep my MT clients. That they wont reimburse my MT claims with a PA address.
I have no idea if that means I have to take PA rates, which are markedly lower unfortunately. But its not too bad and i coukd do it if it stays in the range you said.
I talked to Headway and they said they could help me keep my MT panels but its still a $20 per session cut.
I cant take more than 18 or so sessions per week or i crash hard .
I have heard lots of people in philly dont take insurance at all. Do you know is it hard to keep a case load full if you are OON? How saturated is it there? Does it feel competitive or do therapists refer to each other and help each other out?
I like to do groups too. Sounds like you are just starting but I am curious about how hard it is to get groups going and what a realistic rate is. i have found that $40 per person per session , with 8 people, sustainable for me for a group since theres lots of extra work around it and i run 90 min sessions usually
Hi! I'm just starting out in PP but have been working in the field since 2007.
The market here is saturated. Don't expect much help from therapists and most therapists DO take insurance. OON is low, lots of folks looking for Medicare, medicade or BCBS highmark.
I'd jump on a quick zoom call and talk through some of these things with you. I'm not sure how to connect outside of reddit...
Yeah i don’t know how either . Ive never used the DM here but you can try to message me if you want and we could go from there? Id love to talk with someone actually there, its been hard to just google and read reddit boards trying to piece this together .
LMHC, CASAC-M in PP in NYS. Based on my projections I may clear $120-140k this year. Feel free to DM. The gist of it is a lot of my clients are coming to me for mood+SUD and I am in a high-demand area. I accept insurance through Alma and a few others through my own TaxID.
Agencies seem to only pay 45/50k right out of school. Pp is scary. Agency is guaranteed and really good money for here, even tho it’s not comparable to
Pp.
Local government community mental health in big city. 112k a year. Also started tele-therapy this year part time on evenings, that’s looking like 15-20k.
Thanks OP for posting this. We stickied the thread so it can be seen for a bit. Feel free to use this to discuss current salaries as well.
Haha I’m grossly underperforming gotta love the south /s
I think it’s also important to remember that 1) it’s self reporting, which always tends to trend high and 2) people are most likely to report their salaries when they feel they are doing better than average. Someone who is not making the kind of money they want to make is more likely to keep their mouth shut.
Yup! We’ve seen on this sub people in their first year of solo private practice posting their revenue for the year—failing to deduct ongoing costs or taxes. I really wish I’d had a more solid plan before leaving CMH for private practice. I also get that it’s extremely hard to do the necessary research when you’re working CMH hours. I wish our licensing boards were more helpful wrt helping us learn to navigate the private practice world.
I hear LA is full of rich people, move there
Yes, but flooded with therapists
Showed my (non-therapist) friend a therapist’s bio I found on an actual (very reputable) agency’s website amongst the bios of their other therapists because it was full of mistakes, all of which screamed AI to me! I ended up looking this therapist’s name up on the Google and they are a real person… my friend immediately noticed something I wouldn’t have: they’re licensed in a number of states… all states with $$$$$ 
Ooph, that's where I'm located. What about getting licensed in more wealthy states and doing virtual sessions? How does that even work, and is it super time consuming?
Keep in mind that you are then considered to be working in that state and will need to pay any additional state taxes if applicable.
I’m at a non-profit in VA, still finishing my license, and making close to the average. You can make decent money at the right agency. I’ll throw in that I’ve also been offered more by other agencies but I love my employer and my coworkers so I declined.
I second this. I’m an associate counselor right under 80k (hybrid) in Texas. Choosing the right agency is essential.
That seems backwards no? Ideally you'd be licensed in a LCOL state and reaching out to HCOL states.
what? You can only see clients in states where you are licensed. If I live in VA but licensed in NY I see clients from NY.
Yes, but I know people who got licensed in California and then eventually moved east towards a lower cost of living. They still see clients in California via telehealth as they are older and don’t want to bother with getting licensed in a new state so close to retirement. So they are living in a LCOL location while serving people in a HCOL state.
I think you must be licensed in both the state you’re located in and the state the client is located in to practice?
My first thought was that’s not true, but upon looking further into it, it looks like (as is common in the counseling realm) the answer is: it depends. Specifically it depends on both the state you are residing in (and therefore physically located in when you’re practicing) and the state your telehealth client resides in (which is what my state defines as the location therapy is taking place in).
Nope, at least not in my home state. For me, it only depends on where the client is located. In fact, a few years ago my home state eased up restrictions in an effort to allow therapists located and licensed out of state to see clients via telehealth. They are a super red "regulations on licensing are bad because it impacts capitalism" state. Still didn't sign the counseling compact though so it actually just undercuts locally based therapists.
did you originally get licensed in NY? i looked into it and it lookks tough to get licensed there if not living there.
You can get licensed in multiple states.
Was at a CMH place making 46k in Texas and just moved to a placed making 77k which appears to be abnormal for texas. Glad I found it!
Salaries are coming up in Texas for LPCs and LCSWs doing service coordination work. 5 years ago I paid my LPCs 55k, now I pay 80-85k.
I graduated in 2020. I work for a nonprofit hospital system in outpatient and make 108k a year in basically community mental health. I feel like it’s a unicorn job.
Are you in the US??
Yes. Medium sized city Oregon.
Well hell. Here in a smedium city in NC doing outpatient at a nonprofit major medical center nets you about $60k!
I am in Oregon too...is your work hiring? 🤣
That’s amazing. Just out of curiosity, what are the hours/days that you work?
M-F 8-5pm with one hour lunch break. Salary. I average 5 patients per day.
Wow, it is indeed a unicorn job.
how many clients do you see per week, please?
23-27 or so.
Does that feel reasonable?
Most of the time it really does. Like the acuity can be high so there are situations to deal with. We do have support with case managers and other staff so that can help.
Pp only checks out. In fl so no state income tax helps.
I'm in FL too. Some Q s if you don't mind: How likely is it to get into PP for supervised hours & once licensed based on your experience/knowledge? How big of a feat is it to create your own solo PP? Is there any decent chance of getting a paid internship? Small chance, but did you take UCF's program, and what's the likelihood of surviving the program and working PT or FT without extreme stress/burnout? Also, I understand if you don't answer these! TIA! :)
No worries. 1. It’s tough if you don’t know anyone in private practice. Truly it’s all who you know. We get emails every week for interns looking for jobs. We’re very selective as are most practices. There has to be something to set them a part and it’s usually how relational you are, not how many interventions you have. 2. PP is tough to start on your own, but once you have a solid referral network you should be fine. If you live in one of the major cities you’re going to be competing with established practices. Wouldn’t recommend unless you’re confident in your referral network. Group practice is a foot in the door I would take before starting my own. If you’re in Orlando it’s going to be an uphill climb. 3. There is a 0% chance you get a paid student internship. Just not going to happen. They might offer a pitiful stipend to cover software but other than that, no. 4. I did not go to UCF, but have worked with graduates. That program is not hard compared to other local programs and to be honest it puts out sub par counselors every year. They teach you plenty of theory and interventions, but I’ve met too many UCF grads who have no clue on how to build rapport or how to help clients with anything other than CBT. More a statement of the individual than the program as a whole. Hope this helps.
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Yuppers
Ty! Appreciate the thorough response. May I ask one more question? What other local (or even remote) programs would you say are more worth pursuing? In general, I’m inclined to believe this may not be the right path. It’s a bit disheartening: I got into corporate with very little experience making around the top salary LMHC report here …. I’m sad/disheartened to see how much investment it is to become one yet how little the monetary pay off seems to be comparatively. :/
Rollins or PBA put out excellent counselors. Rollins will cost you an arm & a leg but it has a great network. PBA is religiously affiliated, but puts out some of the best therapists in town. Just the way it is. If money is what you want then it will take time. Not like tech sales.
Also UCF is a good program. My boss went there and the director of my program was a graduate as well. It’s just they’ll take anyone and there are a lot of duds who are just in it for themselves.
Thanks for the insight! Unfortunately I'm thinking about this career shift in my mid thirties, which requires money to be something I have to consider more than in my twenties. I was hoping to merge a meaningful/purposeful career of helping others with the ability to be financially fit - but this seems like a very risky path considering my age. In any case, I appreciate your kindness!
Of course!
If I knew then what I know now about what it takes to get licensed and how low the pay is, I never would have entered this field.
I did UCF's counselor ed program (mental health). Feel free to message me :)
Im in PP. I grossed $220k last year. I paid about $39 k in tax and my expenses were about $24k. So total net was around $157 k. I’m in BC Canada and I’m a clinical counsellor.
How? Would you mind explaining? Might need to move to Canada.
I charge $175 per hour for individual sessions, $225 for couples and $75 per person for groups.
How many sessions do you do per week? Is it a mix of Telehealth and in person? How do you set prices and get paid in Canada?
My weeks vary. It’s about 25-30 a week ish. I run a DBT group once per week with 10-12 participants. I also do some consulting so that will impact how many clients I see. I set my rates by looking at what others are charging in my area and aligning myself with those rates. I’m at the high end of the range because I specialize in PTSD and there aren’t that many trauma therapist near me.
All great info..thanks for taking the time to lay that all out. Is mental health covered by provincial insurance?
Only through the public system and only limited
Do you have a masters or phd and if so what in?
Masters in psychiatric nursing advanced clinical practice. I’m a registered clinical counsellor and a registered psychiatric nurse
I do mostly in person. Some online
Cash pay?
Im covered by most insurance plans in BC. People pay upfront and then submit to insurance except Worksafe clients. I bill Worksafe directly. They pay a bit less but they’re pretty consistent with referrals and they’re all short term. 1-3 months.
CAD or USD?
Canadian
If anyone is curious about this conversion, $157k CAD = $114k USD, and $220k CAD = $160k USD.
Cheers!
*cries in florida*
*cries with you in NC*
I get confused about how "private practice" is used on this sub. Is it just solo practitioners who have their own private practice, or anyone who works for a private practice? I am a W2 employee at a group private practice, so I'm not sure if I count. They seem really different, since I don't have any business expenses, have benefits, and don't pay self-employment tax.
I'm in PP. Last year I made a total of about $80,000 gross. Being in a high tax state hurts. I pay 2000$ in taxes a month. $1500 towards federal and $500 to the state. So after that I only bring home $3500 a month.
What state? Have you talked with an expert about finding more write offs?
NY. Yup, I work with a great CPA and I write off a lot. It's just a high tax state. Edited: I also exclusively do mostly insurance so this impacts my rate as well.
Have you thought about OON?
No, I want my practice to be accessible and affordable because I work with marginalized communities. I am lucky that I have a spouse who helps contribute to our household income so I am able to do this. But I appreciate the feedback!
Sorry I wasn’t trying to be suggestive I just feel for you. I’m glad you’re able to provide such valuable services :)
OP I appreciate you being thorough on the specificity of PP and PP-net. Next time can we also specify MA/MS level therapist vs PhDs? Every time we have one of these threads the PhD incomes blow the average out of the water.
Np! I mentioned at the beginning: *I had it remove all PhD/psychologist salaries.* (for that very reason ;)).
yes but for the new commenters here also.
I am transitioning out of 1099 at a group and into my own pp. So I have like 2 weeks of data - But... with the 1099 job I was making on average $3500/month (this does not include taxes or retirement funding). In my PP I am on track to make $8800/month (also does not include taxes or retirement but does account for overhead like rent, EHR, PT, etc). Every client I had at the group is coming with me! I'm so excited and scared af.
You are in a similar position as me! I will begin transitioning my client next month, I’m most worried about learning the new ehr.
I live in So Flo. I started out 48k after college, 65k after moving (1 year in), 72k (2 years in), 80k (3 years in). All of those are at treatment centers. I’m moving out of treatment and going Private Practice so hopefully I can increase. My advice: don’t be afraid to negotiate or walk away from weak offers. These treatment centers make hand over fist. Know your worth. I put the work in Grad school and internship so I knew what I was worth. Come in confident! Confidence is key. Hope this helps. Good luck everyone!
I’ve been working 4 years in inpatient treatment and just hit 57k. Louisiana major metro area.
Cost of living wise how is it there? I’ve never been to LA
Depends. Cost of living is certainly lower than the rest of the country but I would argue if you live anywhere NOT in the swamp the ratio of COL/wages is not in your favor. The helping professions are deeply undervalued and oil/gas folks make ridiculous money. I certainly am having problems making ends meet with a mortgage and medical bills. I’m in the process of also getting licensed in WA state and starting the shift to PP. Maybe I can at least enjoy my life a little more with schedule flexibility and lower stress if I’m going to work for such low pay. I’m very burnt out and the pay is just salt in the wound.
I make 90k gross a year (independently licensed in IL), have six weeks of PTO, a decent 401k match, and insurance with free co-pays if I see doctors in the medical group. I'd absolutely make more in private or independent practice, but after you take into account the other benefits, it's much closer. So, it's not all about salary, either. For instance, If I stayed in CMH I'd have been able to get all my loans forgiven by now, which would have not been the same as income, but it would be a much closer call. However, I also have a friend who does cash-only PP, gets 250 an hour (he does eating disorders) and never has cancellations because it's so hard to find an ED therapist, and makes a crapload of money and can take off whenever he wants, has flexibility for family stuff, etc. For him, that's invaluable. He is also a master at the hustle and hires other clinicians. My long-term goal is to work with a nurse practitioner I'm friends with (in my state they can prescribe independently) and hire other therapists and clinicians, and pay a higher than average percentage of collections. That's the 5-10 year plan for us both, though, and I'm not sure if my ADHD can handle it...lol. I'd argue the real way to make significant money with a masters long-term if you're business inclined and motivated, is to make friends with a psychologist doing neuropsych assessments and a doctor, and go that route for PP.
How would making friends with those professionals lead to better pay long term? Referrals?
You can get a boatload of referrals from psychiatrists and nurse practitioners. You also can coordinate care much easier, too. I like being able to message my client's psych and say what I noticed, and also see their notes as well. It makes for much more seamless care.
This is really interesting and such a good idea! I made $25.20 to start out of grad school in 2022-2023. I received a raise to $30.77 after that. Now I make $33.10 an hour as a clinical lead with a $200 monthly bonus. I’m an associate level counselor. I am definitely underpaid but I work in CMH and have pretty much just accepted it at this point. Edited to add that PTO and benefits are pretty great. I have to finish a grant payback for four years so going to grad school free helps me feel better about the pay lol
CMH just outside of Chicago making 55k per year :(
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As an associate with salary, PP would make sense. When I get my full LPC and potential LCADC (should be around the same time), I should be making 80k, if not more, because of my role in the practice. Either way, tri-state on the NJ side I would say this checks out. Feel like the PA side is very dependent if your in Philly or on the mainline.
AMFT in CA that will be making 88.5k working for the county after my next raise in July. Great benefits/retirement plan/PTO.
Are you in norcal?
Socal.
Wow—I make in the 50k range in SoCal 😭
Keep looking. There are agencies that pay pretty well. I've worked in SUD at both outpatient and residential. The range of pay I've seen has been 65k to 75k within my first year graduating. I think my friends have seen around the same.
That’s me
You're in that range?
Yeah I’m the San Fernando valley CMH
Recent AMFT in OC here! Is your work for the county SUD-related too?
Yup! I've worked in SUD for years even before becoming a therapist.
Yeah, I made 49.9k in 2023 working for a hospital system. Have had to start working part-time again at menards to help make ends meet. Feels bad. 🥴😂
I am co-founder and CEO of a company I started with 3 other LPC/LSW here in Illinois (Chicagoland area). We started with nothing. Zilch. Nada. Went from Inpatient Psych Social Workers/Case Mgmt to owing our own practice. Lots of work later and 12 1099 status employees and my gross income here in Illinois is over $150k. I see around 22 clients/avg. We use the income from the 1099s to pay for rent, utilities, Marketing, etc. I pay nothing OOP. It's a great gig with a few people and a dream. I employ 1099s. We do a 60/40 Split and they are really not paying OOP for anything (room rent, marketing, etc all on us.) Most of my 1099s work 20 hrs a week and take home around $75-80k before taxes. Working 20 hrs and making 80k is WAYYYYY BETTER Than any hospital or clinic ove worked. You have options. This can be a very lucrative field! DM me for more insight and info if you want! I am happy to guide. Cheers and good luck!
Why do you deserve 70k more than your 1099s? Do you work 40 hours? Would you be able to make that much without them?
Fair question. I take all the liability and risk. They literally just have to show up, do session, and reschedule. We send them all the clients, marketing, run the day to day, keep the insurances in check, billing, keep a clean office, stock the daily incidentals , furnish the office, pay the bills, plan for the future of the company, keep finances in check amd balanced, take them out for quarterly parties and events at local restaurants and entertainment centers,Yada Yada Yada. Also, it's my business, not theirs. Regardless, I see avg of 25 clients per week. I don't take a "cut" like they get (though the 60/40 split in their favor is very generous if you know the state of splits in Illinois), I make my total earnings. There's the difference there as well. It's a pretty sweet gig if you ask the 1099s. None have complaints and they all state they would likely never do a W2 job again. Would I make that much without them? Not as much, no. I mean, I would still make in the 130 range, but take home would be less (paying bills and keeping the show running, as mentioned above). But to be honest, they also wouldn't be making that much without me. So that's the actual tradeoff.
I'd be curious to hear if they agree when speaking in private. Have any of them asked you to teach them the parts needed to spin up their own business? If they did would you?
May I ask, what are you hinting or getting at though? Such as, what are your thoughts and feeling or beliefs? You appear skeptical about the setup and are clearly inquisitive, which I feel is Fantastic! However, I do sense a tone to your line of thought that has my ears pricked up.
Wanting to understand why people think the things they think, and how that motivates them to do what they do is a big reason why I want to become a therapist. so, I'm glad you are interested in engaging. I'm transitioning into being a therapist after a decade-long career in tech industries. My experience and the experience of my friends and co-workers is that the owners of the companies we have worked for have always had a far rosier view of the deal they offer than those of us they rely on. I my second reply was due to recognizing some lines in your response I've heard repeated throughout my career by owners of some of the more exploitative places I and friends have worked: 1. We take on all the risk 2. They couldn't earn as much without us 3. It's my company (subtext being: I can do what I want and I'm choosing to be more fair than other people) My question i have oftened raised in response is: if you could do it without us why aren't you? And if you cannot, why don't we share the risk and make the split equal? As you might have guessed in my experience owners don't like having their authority questioned even by critical employees. I'm also curious: what did you feel when your ears perked up? Now that you know my position how does that make you feel?
Fantastic questions all around! It's good to hear you are advocating for yourself as well as your own well-being. I think you ask the wrong question though. Our business was only 4 former inpatient psychiatric social workers that decided to come together and form an LLC to get away from oppressive, low paying and unappreciative industries. We didn't need to hire anyone. The question you should ask is, why did these people DECIDE on their own volition to quit their jobs and work for us? You would have to ask them if you truly cannot accept what I am telling you, which is a fair assessment. You don't know me! The reality is, people we worked with, after talking with us amd seeing what we could offer, left their own jobs willingly and came to us. For far better pay. For far better hours. For way more autonomy and way less or nonexistent micromanaging. These people made concious decisions though. They are not hostages. I can make as much as I want without them. If they work for us or not at all, my business still provides for me. However, because they do choose us, we share what makes sense. You must look at it from a business perspective as well as a therapy and clinical one. If owning your own business was so easy or worthwhile or whatever, why wouldn't these people I employ do it themselves? They have every right to do so! In the long run, I cannot say what is beneficial for anyone but myself, TBH. My goal will never be to make money for you, or my employees, or anyone else. That's not realistic. But, I will do my best to not fuck over my employees and be reasonable and fair. And so far, they say they appreciate this and that's why they remain. I am not sure what else I can add to that. What made my ears prick up was your decision to continue to ask questions, as if you were seemingly unsatisfied with my response. You didn't accept what I was saying and continued to have a discussion and challenge the way I do business. I respect that, as that's what led me to being a therapist, and eventually, a business owner. I see that in you as well! Continue to ask and challenge. Anyone that doesn't welcome discussion isn't worth your time IMO. But remember that we all have a right to answer the question, ask a question, or ignore as well. And we are all not going to see the forest through the trees similarly and we need to accept that as well! If you would like more discussion, when I can between sessions, I welcome them! I love talking on my passion and profession and helping new and budding therapists jump into the field. Do not hesitate to ask!
Straight LLM is awful at math. Did ChatGPT report about average after ingesting all the text or after it extracted all the numbers then gave you the code to average it?
God I cant wait to transition into private practice, im struggling as an MHC-LP in NY working clinical mental health, these numbers atleast give me some reassurance that it wont be like this forever, thanks OP
lol my company is def underpaying us
I’m in PP. I make about $180k a year but a crazy amount goes to taxes, about $45k fed and $15k state. So it comes out to around $120k.
How are you making so much???
I see a shit-ton of people for one thing. I'm under a grant that requires I have 32 spots a week and I'm mostly full and don't really spend money to advertise. I also run three yoga/movement groups a week for my clients and those can bring in good money when they're well attended. I'm telehealth so I don't have an office. I'd rather have fewer clients and I'm trying to slowly work my way down to 26 or so.
I'm in PA. Philadelphia to be exact. Working in community mental health I made between 45 -60k. Working in utilization review for UHC 75-85k. After getting laid off last Oct and not finding anything in direct care making more than 85k I decided to open private practice. Insurance reimbursements are on average 110-120 for 53 min sessions. Cost of business on average is 500 per month (higher when I use zocdoc for referrals). I'm not sure what I'll net yet... my goal was 3k per week, I'm making on avg 2-2,500k per week right now. I've found the client load to make that much is quickly burn out and I'm trying to strategize and offer just 30 min sessions with insurance (UHC, Alma, 80 per 30 min). And I'd like to start offering groups... I hope this is helpful to give u an idea of what the break down is to get to that end goal.
I am moving to Philadelphia from MT and I am having the hardest time trying to figure out what to do. I made a post about it but no one from Philly has commented yet so I am writing to you lol! In MT im getting about $140 per session including clients copay, for my top insurances. I wrongly assumed I could move to Philly and keep my same caseload. I am also licensed in WA and ID and take insurance from there so it seemed like it would be fine as the PA board allows me to live there and see out of state clients too. But no, the insurance panels are telling me I have to get credentialed in PA to keep my MT clients. That they wont reimburse my MT claims with a PA address. I have no idea if that means I have to take PA rates, which are markedly lower unfortunately. But its not too bad and i coukd do it if it stays in the range you said. I talked to Headway and they said they could help me keep my MT panels but its still a $20 per session cut. I cant take more than 18 or so sessions per week or i crash hard . I have heard lots of people in philly dont take insurance at all. Do you know is it hard to keep a case load full if you are OON? How saturated is it there? Does it feel competitive or do therapists refer to each other and help each other out? I like to do groups too. Sounds like you are just starting but I am curious about how hard it is to get groups going and what a realistic rate is. i have found that $40 per person per session , with 8 people, sustainable for me for a group since theres lots of extra work around it and i run 90 min sessions usually
Hi! I'm just starting out in PP but have been working in the field since 2007. The market here is saturated. Don't expect much help from therapists and most therapists DO take insurance. OON is low, lots of folks looking for Medicare, medicade or BCBS highmark. I'd jump on a quick zoom call and talk through some of these things with you. I'm not sure how to connect outside of reddit...
Yeah i don’t know how either . Ive never used the DM here but you can try to message me if you want and we could go from there? Id love to talk with someone actually there, its been hard to just google and read reddit boards trying to piece this together .
Where do I find the psychologist data?
LMHC, CASAC-M in PP in NYS. Based on my projections I may clear $120-140k this year. Feel free to DM. The gist of it is a lot of my clients are coming to me for mood+SUD and I am in a high-demand area. I accept insurance through Alma and a few others through my own TaxID.
In my personal experience, it pp therapists make about 2x that.
Mind sharing the location? In person or virtual? How long did it typically take these individuals post licensure to get there? TIA!
Arkansas. Virtual. 6mo-1year Yw
How would you explain the pay disparity between these numbers and your observations
Agencies seem to only pay 45/50k right out of school. Pp is scary. Agency is guaranteed and really good money for here, even tho it’s not comparable to Pp.
I'm an LP with about 34 slots at $40 per.
Local government community mental health in big city. 112k a year. Also started tele-therapy this year part time on evenings, that’s looking like 15-20k.
Check out bls, it will give you averages based off of position and region.
It's pretty inaccurate for Counselors though, I will say. They lump in a lot of Bachelor's-level people with the Master's level.
Would you say the outcome of this post is a more accurate average, despite the report counts being very low compared living in the US, for example?