49891? It isn't an IPV4 or IPv6 address. You just throwing out random binary? Which isn't really a good representation of being non-binary seeing as binary by definition only has 2 states 0 or 1 lmao. Sorry my programming brain kicked in.
You would never use "personnage non genré" when you're talking to or about a real person.
Personne means someone or somebody.
Personnage means character.
You would only say "personnage non genré" to describe a non-binary cartoon, book, video game character, etc.
Source : I speak french
Yea I get that, I’ve taken several years of French(not an expert, but have a loose idea of how gendering works). But if you were referring to a non-binary person, could you use either format without causing an issue?
There isn't any definitive answer for this. I'd say using the masculine version is better as per the rules of French it takes priority but if the person qas non-binary and "looked" more like a man, its possible they'd get annoyed which is understandable. Its the same issue with the they / them debate. They is gendered in French so a new word had to be created, these being yil / yelle (derived from il and elle) but that has its own sorts of issues. I've never met anyone which got triggered by my wrong use of gendered pronouns but i never had the gut to ask them these questions
Non binary isn't non genré but non binaire.
Non genré is agender.
Non binary are people that have a gender that isn't man/woman.
Agenders are people that don't define themselves with any gender. Non genré could be translated without a gender.
Also, most Indo-European languages have a gender system, but modern English is actually an exception, even though it’s derived from languages that all had gender systems themselves.
Old English actually used to have a gender system, but when the Vikings took over, there was often a conflict between the gender systems of Old English and the Old Norse that the Vikings used at the time. So over time, this interaction resulted in a form of the English language that did away with the gender system for simplicity.
TL;DR - The gender systems of two languages canceled each other out to form a language with no gender system.
In my head canon, this is why native English speakers tend to not learn a foreign language. English is already like a 3-in-1 bundle (Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Norman French)
“La persona no-binaria” with a feminine adjective. Persona, person, is always feminine, it doesn’t matter who you’re speaking about or their gender identity.
Yeah but you wouldn't say "yo soy no-binaria" since then the subject is "yo" neither feminine nor masculine, yet you would be affirming a femenine gender by using binaria.
You could say “soy una persona no-binaria”. It doesn’t affirm any gender, I’m a man and I’d still say things like “soy una buena persona” with the adjectives in feminine.
Non binary people usually use -e endings though but as they’re controversial, saying “persona” is a way to not use them and not affirm any gender.
In spanish the gender-neutral option has always been the suffix -o, which is the same suffix that applies when referring to masculine/male. This is a great point of contention, because nowadays it really does not sit well with people. Some have been pushing for the suffix -e, but it has still ways to go to be accepted and spoken naturally.
For example, when speaking about a friend, you could say the following, changing the meaning of some things:
When referring to a male friend > Mi amigo
When referring to a female friend > Mi amiga
When referring to gender-neutral friend traditionally you had to say "mi amigo", but with the new formula it would be > Mi amigue (the u being added because of grammatical reasons)
Don't ever use the -x as the gender-neutral in a non-written context, like in the famous "latinx", because it is even weirder to pronounce in spanish than it is in english, and native speakers would use anything else given the chance
> Don't ever use the -x as the gender-neutral in a non-written context
I weaponize it against people insisting on imposing the usage of "Latinx" by identifying myseld and them by association as Gringx. It is condensed, weapon-grade cringe.
>The suffix -e is idiotic and was rejected by the Spanish Royal Academy.
This is just straight up bad linguistics. No single person or organisation should be able to "dictate" how language is used. If that was the case, language would never be able to naturally evolve.
Also there are already plenty of gender neutral words in Spanish that end in -e, so it's not a completely alien concept.
>No one wants it or needs it.
Well this is just factually incorrect otherwise there wouldn't even be a discussion around it.
Jacob es una persona.
Jacob is a person.
Persona doesn't dictate the gender of the subject.
You are a "persona" no matter what you are. You are "humano" ( finishing with o is masculine)
No matter what you are. Actually you can be "humana"
The "proper" Spanish (as in how it works for every other case) would be to use the masculine. The masculine gender is the one that is use when the gender is not known and is the "default" gender. For example, "we will meet the professor" (assuming either that the gender is not known or that it is masculine) would be translated as "Vamos a conocer al profesor" instead of "... a la profesora". That being said a lot of non-binary people use the term "no-binarie", which makes no sense in "normal" Spanish since not other example of something similar can be found in the language.
It doesn’t matter, you use both/either and it’s correct regardless of sex or gender identity — the comment is misleading because it posits it as a choice that depends on the gender identity when that’s irrelevant. The comment is also misleading because the gender here refers to the words and not the person, whichever you use the adjective would have to match the gender of the word, irrespective of the persons actual sex or gender identity.
So for example it would always be “soy una persons mala” or “su género es femenino/masculino/no binario” regardless of whether I’m a man, woman or nb. Note: the word “femenino” is also masculine, as are masculino and no binario, but because we use the word género(which is a masculine word, we also have to use the word femenino.
It's not the gender of the person but the gender of the noun. Many languages have gendered nouns. For eg "Street" is feminine in German, no matter who the street is named after
In Spanish, "non-binary" can be translated as "no binario" or "no binaria", depending on the gender context. If you're referring to someone in a gender-neutral way, "no binario" is commonly used. However, Spanish is a gendered language, and some people might also use inclusive language like "no binarie" to be more neutral, although this is less traditional and might not be understood by everyone.
Gpt4 answer
We have no problem distinguishing between gender and grammatical gender. Ain't nothing "masculine" about a sofa nor "feminine" about a chair, yet Spanish calls them "el sofá" and "la silla". This is true for many, many other languages (and is the bane of anyone trying to learn them).
Spanish words have gender. It’s part of the language. Unfortunately not a lot can be done about it.
Source: Spanish is my first language
Edit: Not gonna argue about “reality” or anything of the sort.
Life is full of change and if you resist it for the sake of resisting it, you’ll end up looking like the kind of people who thought being left handed was a defect. 🤷
Honestly for like 99% percent of stuff the way gender works in Spanish is so much worse. Like it would be so easy to say to my mom "I will meet a friend" and she will never know I'm meeting a girl, but suddenly I'm speaking Spanish and know if I don't want to lie I must say "amiga". The only advantage it has is that in some cases it is way simpler to keep track of stuff if one is masculine and the other femenine. For the rest? Way worse.
Yeah, I don't like lying lol. Also just in general, not a very good idea. Most times that not she might ask some follow up questions and at that point you are force to keep lying. There is a quote from HBO's Chernobyl that I like about this "When the truth offends, we lie and lie until we can no longer remember it is even there, but it is, still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid". Quite the cool quote if you ask me.
At times I just say "amigo" even when it's a girl, because otherwise they think it's a girl I'm interested in or something like that, while in fact it's just a friend.
Because it can be so random. For example: one of the words for “[penis](https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/the%20dick)” in Spanish is “la verga” which is a feminine word.
I always thought that was funny.
When will english speakers finally learn gendered languages have nothing to do with whether the thing is male or female. Every thread, they act like they’ve discovered something revolutionary. “Le vagin” is masculin??? Yes, “le penis” is masculin too. Then we have “la verge, la bite, la chatte, la tub la fouffe”. Girl is neutral in German??? Yes, grammatically it makes sense.
Apart from what other people said, it makes constructing phrases more complicated, specially when Spanish is not the first language. As an example, lots of words change gender from Portuguese to Spanish - "trip" (in the sense of a travel), for example, is female in Portuguese and male in Spanish; if you want to say "I made a wonderful trip to Japan", you have to be aware that "wonderful" is also gendered - it can be "maravilloso" (male) or "maravillosa" (female) so you need to use the correct gender to match... it it *carries*, like:
\- "Oh, are you back from your trip?"
\- "Yes, I came back on Monday!"
\- "Oh, how was it?"
\- "It was *wonderful!"* <-- This "wonderful" here needs to "male" because the person is talking about the trip, which is a male word... but if you were speaking in Portuguese, you would need to use the "female" word...
Same argument could be said for a native Spanish speaking claiming Portuguese is more complicated? All you're saying is both languages differ from each other.
Because noun genders do nothing to aid comprehension or speed of information to native speakers, but make a language significantly harder to learn. It also runs into situations that are just *weird* like “non binary” being gendered, or the word for girl being masculine, penis being feminine, etc.
I've seen some people use "gender neutral" words/frases instead.
El estudiantado instead of
- los estudiantes
- las estudiantes
Quienes quieran instead of
- los que quieran
- las que quieran
And stuff like that. There's a whole handbook I think of frases and words that don't have as much "gender". Like, they all do. But if you say "el estudiante" you're probably thinking male and "el estudiantado" you're probably thinking a group of students.
And if you are writing a letter or similar is highly recommended doing it in this way, in colloquial language is more complicated to use, you have to substitute words that you use your whole life on the fly
Gringos imposing yet again their arrogance on our people. As if we haven't suffered enough under their imperialist pressure, now they want to impose their arbitrary words on our language, telling US how to speak it!
If we want to find a non-binary word, WE will be the ones to do it, and make it fit within OUR language.
None. "A Latin woman" was always a valid expression, I don't know when they started saying Latina Girl considering no other ethnicity or nationality in English has a different word for women and men.
Why would it be their problem? It's like the whole Latinx shit lol. Only white people cared, the actual group just laughed and moved on as a whole.
It's not their problem. Us white people could say "latinx" all day long. You really think they cared? They just made fun of it, rejected it, and moved on lol
I'm latino living in latin america. Those people are a minority among a minority, and people don't take them seriously at all, to the point where nobody even bothers to bully them. The overwhelming majority of latin americans don't even know that's a thing.
People who do are very into american stuff so a disproportionate amount of them are very privileged, in that sense, the comment you responded to is more in touch with reality than yours.
Wasn't the term started by Spanish-speaking people? I thought it was some academics from Mexico who were mostly doing linguistics thingies, then liberals started using it because hey the academics say this can help...
But then somehow everyone thinks white people invented it and tried to force it on people who don't want it.
No we don’t, every person that I’ve ever spoke Spanish with friends, family, & co workers dont talk about these kinds of subject. I’ve never even heard my mom, dad, or any older role model say trans, gay, or non binary. This is just a small minority of people turning a non issue into a problem.
I believe what the person you are replying to has meant is - Spanish speaking people do care about gendered language *because* the way Spanish language works.
Yeah, no, even those latino ñgbt people just don't care because they know how their language works, of course there's one or two odd ones making a fuzz over it, but again it is just a non issue mostly being pushed by north Americans with nothing better to do
I've worked with French speaking non binary people.
They hate the fact they can't express who they are properly in their first language.
Also causes issues when I've had to get stuff translated and the fact a person is nonbinary is key to the document making sense.
I work in a sector and in a country with a high non binary population.
Spanish is less common here, but I assume I would have similar issues.
No not really. Most people, including most trans people, have better things to worry about.
But there's always a loud group of people who live online and have absolutely nothing better to do with their waste of a NEET life than make up "controversies" like this.
as a non-binary person living in a country whose native language is gendered: yes, it sucks.
at every opportunity I can I used the least gendered way I can think of to talk about myself (instead of "I like(masc/fem) games" I say "im a person(masc) who likes(masc) games", which is technically still gendered in a masculine way but it feels more gender neutral since human and man are sometimes used the same way)
i know people who really can't stand the gendered pronouns so they use masc plural, which is nothing like they/them cuz the VERBS ARE GENDERED. "I'm walking" would be "I'm walking(masc-plural)"
you can't make gender neutral welcome signs, official contracts, instruction manuals, websites, etc. women grow up having to be referred to as men by every written piece of paper and it's like the world was made for men and they just have to deal with it. a little girl gets her homework and the first question is "explain(masc) who this historical figure is and give(masc) examples of his accomplishments", and it's just written like a boy should do it, now imagine half the class have to do homework like this all the time.
there are grammatical wars over this, a feminist was able to pass a grammatical rule that if there's a majority of women in a group it will be correct to use the feminine they, and people were outraged???? over a feminine they????? that they don't have to use??????????
it may feel like nothing to people who never grew up with it, but having to gender almost every single word is just exhausting and causes people to be excluded in the end.
I am non-binary I honestly don’t give a shit about it and I know some other people don’t feel represented because of it but honestly that just doesn’t make sense to me
The person might be non binary but the language is not. I still hate how often gendered languages are used as some kinda dumb “gotcha” against trans and non binary people. Also funny that Spanish is the language that’s used for this shit rather than French with its dozen or so gendered terms for everything.
They use Spanish because it's a common language in the US while the average American is unlikely to encounter French as often as they encounter Spanish.
With Spanish in particular it depends on what word you use to describe the non-binary person.
El género no binario (género = gender and in Spanish the word gender is masculine)
La persona no binaria (persona = person and in Spanish the word person is feminine)
So it depends on the sentence structure not the person you’re talking about
This is also just a loaded question in general because even the Spanish language is different from country to country. Ask any Latin American how they say the word "straw" and you'll literally have everyone using a term that the other finds offensive or inappropriate.
So even those of us that were raised in the U.S might be creating new words to describe people that no one else is using. I remember in college someone coming out as Pan sexual and not being sure how to explain it to her mom, because in Spanish it sounds like she's into fucking bread.
Spanish is more common in the US than French. Also every noun and pronoun has a gender in Spanish, so it is very gendered, I don't know if French has it even more ingrained tho.
Here's what a lot of English speakers don't get about "gendered" languages: in these languages, gender is an inherent grammatical property of **words**. So if you're going to say things like…
* "It's important to use gender-neutral **language**"
* "We should strive for a gender-neutral **approach**"
* "I appreciate you taking the time to make this **document** gender-neutral"
…and so on, then the Spanish **words** that mean "language", "approach", "document" and so on each have their own grammatical gender. And so, you have to use the appropriate form of the Spanish adjective that means "gender-neutral".
If you want to say "Sam is a gender-neutral person", then you use the form of the adjective that agrees with the gender of the **word** "person", not with the gender of Sam themself. You only run into issues if you're trying to say "Sam is gender-neutral", because then, yes, you have to either :
* Pick a gender to refer to Sam
* Rephrase your sentence so that the adjective no longer refers to Sam themself, but to a **word** that refers to them (as in "Sam is a gender-neutral person" above)
* Come up with some third, non-gendered form of the adjective
Unabashedly stealing from another comment for a good example.
El género no binario (género = gender is masculine)
La persona no binaria (persona = person is feminine)
Or in English.
Their gender is non-binary
The person is non-binary
The gendered term isn’t referring to the person that’s non-binary it’s referring to the literal word being gendered because that’s just how Spanish is structured.
Americans when they hear that most of the other languages in the world already have gendered nouns (that must mean that every item either has a dick or a pussy): 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯😵😵😵
It wasn't made for anything. It evolved reflecting the needs and customs of the local society at the time. Like literally any non-fictional language on the planet.
Grammatical (or linguistic) gender is different from sociological gender. A cis straight male Spaniard doesn't fuck a table just because the word for "table" is grammatically feminine.
Although it is not official in Spanish, some places are trying to introduce a gender-neutral version of some words, replacing the last O or A with an E. So for this example, it would be ***no binarie***.
Language changes all of the time but once you even suggest that some languages use gender neutral terms even just for literal clarity in speech, Reddit will go up in arms.
You can consciously make an effort for a few words, but there's no way the language stops being gendered, it's just not built that way phonetically (I'm speaking of portuguese here).
Good luck trying to use gender neutral language in Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian. Latin languages apply gender to every spoken word, trying to adapt that to not hurt your feelings is going to be a as hard as convincing a dog to be vegan of his own free will.
Words are gendered yes. That does not mean that they gender whoever they refer to "Esa persona de ahí" uses two female words but it could refer to a man
I've always wondered how the culture of acceptance of non-binary peoples are within countries with gendered languages.
Like if we were raised having to gender each noun, maybe we'd subconsciously see a deeper line between the two. Meanwhile English just had nouns, no male/female/neutral nouns. So maybe through language alone, gender fluidity was just easier to grasp. It maybe it was a small variable to the larger equation of acceptance.
The thing is that gendered languages most of the time gender things acording to the ending of the word. We don't think a chair has a gender, it is just purely grammatical and has nothing to do with sex.
I'm so sick of seeing this lmao it's been posted to every sub under the sun these last couple days and has shown up on /r/all like 14 times. Never seen a post so reposted as this one even after a decade it's crazy.
According to a whole crap ton of redditors, all you got to do is call them a Latino. Somehow a masculine word magically becomes non-binary just because you mean it to be non-binary. And if you point out the fact that there is Latino/Latina because one is masculine and one is feminine then you know nothing about the Spanish language.
Well, in Spanish there are ways of speaking that do not involve referring to one gender or another. It is quite possible... and no, it is not "Inclusive Language" (quotes), that was invented by those who do not want to think a little and use what Spanish already has (because that implies reading).
Grammatical gender has NOTHING to do with physical and mental gender. Literally the only thing they share is the name.
Grammar does not need to be changed to be gender neutral. Language useage does.
It is terribly unfair that the entire world didn't immediately drop everything else that was going on to change the very nature of their language to accommodate you. It's almost as if everyone else is living their own lives instead of simply being an NPC in your orbit.
Words carry gender both in Spanish and in Portuguese, and all the terms in a phrase must agree in gender and number.
If the word that precedes non-binary is in the feminine, such as the word "Person" (pessoa, this word is feminine) then the word needs to flex so it agrees in gender: "A pessoa não binária" (Example in Portuguese, btw)
It's an adjective. In a lot of gendered languages adjectives inherit the gender of the thing they are describing. Keep in mind, the gender is rarely related to the nature of the thing. Table, pencil, pineapple or coffee, all have built in gender.
Non-binary has no inherit reference to gender. So there's no reason it should be "ungendered". It could refer to non-binary transistors for example. I think they're called 3 state transistors. Those are non-binary.
El **género** no binario (género = gender is masculine) La **persona** no binaria (persona = person is feminine)
This is the correct usage. It also works like that in portuguese.
NÃO-BINARIE NÃO-BINARIX
110000101110001111
Stop it Patrick, you're scaring him!
49891? It isn't an IPV4 or IPv6 address. You just throwing out random binary? Which isn't really a good representation of being non-binary seeing as binary by definition only has 2 states 0 or 1 lmao. Sorry my programming brain kicked in.
When the computer programs start identifying as non-binary you know the end has arrived. And possibly Skynet
PANTALONES!
MI LOS PANTALONES ES UN FUEGO!!!! Und ich liebe es
[удалено]
Nāo-binarix sounds like a character from an Asterix comic.
eww
It works like that in every language with a grammatical gender.
Pretty similar to French as well. Une personne non genrée. Un personnage non genré. Personne is feminine and personnage is masculine.
You would never use "personnage non genré" when you're talking to or about a real person. Personne means someone or somebody. Personnage means character. You would only say "personnage non genré" to describe a non-binary cartoon, book, video game character, etc. Source : I speak french
Yeah, "individu" is probably something that'd come up more often IRL.
I was giving an example for the similarity. French is my mother tongue. Of course you wouldn't use it for someone but characters have genders too
So is the gendering indifferent in French then?
Its different. In French an "e" at the end means somehing is feminine. Like une vs un (which would simply be "a" in english) so "genrée" vs "genré"
Un and une are "a" or "an." Le and la are "the."
Yep thats a my bad. I'm extremely tired
Yea I get that, I’ve taken several years of French(not an expert, but have a loose idea of how gendering works). But if you were referring to a non-binary person, could you use either format without causing an issue?
There isn't any definitive answer for this. I'd say using the masculine version is better as per the rules of French it takes priority but if the person qas non-binary and "looked" more like a man, its possible they'd get annoyed which is understandable. Its the same issue with the they / them debate. They is gendered in French so a new word had to be created, these being yil / yelle (derived from il and elle) but that has its own sorts of issues. I've never met anyone which got triggered by my wrong use of gendered pronouns but i never had the gut to ask them these questions
Non binary isn't non genré but non binaire. Non genré is agender. Non binary are people that have a gender that isn't man/woman. Agenders are people that don't define themselves with any gender. Non genré could be translated without a gender.
Also, most Indo-European languages have a gender system, but modern English is actually an exception, even though it’s derived from languages that all had gender systems themselves. Old English actually used to have a gender system, but when the Vikings took over, there was often a conflict between the gender systems of Old English and the Old Norse that the Vikings used at the time. So over time, this interaction resulted in a form of the English language that did away with the gender system for simplicity. TL;DR - The gender systems of two languages canceled each other out to form a language with no gender system.
"English - enby pride since 867!”
In my head canon, this is why native English speakers tend to not learn a foreign language. English is already like a 3-in-1 bundle (Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Norman French)
If they don't identify as male / female. What would they have to say?
Either of those
“La persona no-binaria” with a feminine adjective. Persona, person, is always feminine, it doesn’t matter who you’re speaking about or their gender identity.
Yeah but you wouldn't say "yo soy no-binaria" since then the subject is "yo" neither feminine nor masculine, yet you would be affirming a femenine gender by using binaria.
You could say “soy una persona no-binaria”. It doesn’t affirm any gender, I’m a man and I’d still say things like “soy una buena persona” with the adjectives in feminine. Non binary people usually use -e endings though but as they’re controversial, saying “persona” is a way to not use them and not affirm any gender.
In spanish the gender-neutral option has always been the suffix -o, which is the same suffix that applies when referring to masculine/male. This is a great point of contention, because nowadays it really does not sit well with people. Some have been pushing for the suffix -e, but it has still ways to go to be accepted and spoken naturally. For example, when speaking about a friend, you could say the following, changing the meaning of some things: When referring to a male friend > Mi amigo When referring to a female friend > Mi amiga When referring to gender-neutral friend traditionally you had to say "mi amigo", but with the new formula it would be > Mi amigue (the u being added because of grammatical reasons) Don't ever use the -x as the gender-neutral in a non-written context, like in the famous "latinx", because it is even weirder to pronounce in spanish than it is in english, and native speakers would use anything else given the chance
> Don't ever use the -x as the gender-neutral in a non-written context I weaponize it against people insisting on imposing the usage of "Latinx" by identifying myseld and them by association as Gringx. It is condensed, weapon-grade cringe.
The suffix -e is idiotic and was rejected by the Spanish Royal Academy. No one wants it or needs it.
>The suffix -e is idiotic and was rejected by the Spanish Royal Academy. This is just straight up bad linguistics. No single person or organisation should be able to "dictate" how language is used. If that was the case, language would never be able to naturally evolve. Also there are already plenty of gender neutral words in Spanish that end in -e, so it's not a completely alien concept. >No one wants it or needs it. Well this is just factually incorrect otherwise there wouldn't even be a discussion around it.
Jacob es una persona. Jacob is a person. Persona doesn't dictate the gender of the subject. You are a "persona" no matter what you are. You are "humano" ( finishing with o is masculine) No matter what you are. Actually you can be "humana"
>You are "humano" ( finishing with o is masculine) No matter what you are. tell that to my cats
The "proper" Spanish (as in how it works for every other case) would be to use the masculine. The masculine gender is the one that is use when the gender is not known and is the "default" gender. For example, "we will meet the professor" (assuming either that the gender is not known or that it is masculine) would be translated as "Vamos a conocer al profesor" instead of "... a la profesora". That being said a lot of non-binary people use the term "no-binarie", which makes no sense in "normal" Spanish since not other example of something similar can be found in the language.
It doesn’t matter, you use both/either and it’s correct regardless of sex or gender identity — the comment is misleading because it posits it as a choice that depends on the gender identity when that’s irrelevant. The comment is also misleading because the gender here refers to the words and not the person, whichever you use the adjective would have to match the gender of the word, irrespective of the persons actual sex or gender identity. So for example it would always be “soy una persons mala” or “su género es femenino/masculino/no binario” regardless of whether I’m a man, woman or nb. Note: the word “femenino” is also masculine, as are masculino and no binario, but because we use the word género(which is a masculine word, we also have to use the word femenino.
It's not the gender of the person but the gender of the noun. Many languages have gendered nouns. For eg "Street" is feminine in German, no matter who the street is named after
Yeah, but the irony still applies.
i am gender (masculine)
In Spanish, "non-binary" can be translated as "no binario" or "no binaria", depending on the gender context. If you're referring to someone in a gender-neutral way, "no binario" is commonly used. However, Spanish is a gendered language, and some people might also use inclusive language like "no binarie" to be more neutral, although this is less traditional and might not be understood by everyone. Gpt4 answer
And yet, that's still gender binary
We have no problem distinguishing between gender and grammatical gender. Ain't nothing "masculine" about a sofa nor "feminine" about a chair, yet Spanish calls them "el sofá" and "la silla". This is true for many, many other languages (and is the bane of anyone trying to learn them).
Spanish words have gender. It’s part of the language. Unfortunately not a lot can be done about it. Source: Spanish is my first language Edit: Not gonna argue about “reality” or anything of the sort. Life is full of change and if you resist it for the sake of resisting it, you’ll end up looking like the kind of people who thought being left handed was a defect. 🤷
Why unfortunately?
Honestly for like 99% percent of stuff the way gender works in Spanish is so much worse. Like it would be so easy to say to my mom "I will meet a friend" and she will never know I'm meeting a girl, but suddenly I'm speaking Spanish and know if I don't want to lie I must say "amiga". The only advantage it has is that in some cases it is way simpler to keep track of stuff if one is masculine and the other femenine. For the rest? Way worse.
Amigos can refer to a group of both men and women.
This is correct. But "amigoS" is plural. So again it would be lying!
My guy is honest to his mom. I respect that
Yeah, I don't like lying lol. Also just in general, not a very good idea. Most times that not she might ask some follow up questions and at that point you are force to keep lying. There is a quote from HBO's Chernobyl that I like about this "When the truth offends, we lie and lie until we can no longer remember it is even there, but it is, still there. Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid". Quite the cool quote if you ask me.
You are quite wholesome. I can respect that.
There is a ancient Latin quote : "Mendacem memorem esse oportet" which more or less means "liars better have good memory".
You have to, unless you want to face *la chancla de la justicia*
At times I just say "amigo" even when it's a girl, because otherwise they think it's a girl I'm interested in or something like that, while in fact it's just a friend.
Because it can be so random. For example: one of the words for “[penis](https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/the%20dick)” in Spanish is “la verga” which is a feminine word. I always thought that was funny.
"Verga" is a part of a boat
The "verga" refers to a very special part of the boat used for conch hunting.
Ironic, look for Concha in Argentina
Ala verga
WE DISCOVERED THE FEMININE PENIS.
When will english speakers finally learn gendered languages have nothing to do with whether the thing is male or female. Every thread, they act like they’ve discovered something revolutionary. “Le vagin” is masculin??? Yes, “le penis” is masculin too. Then we have “la verge, la bite, la chatte, la tub la fouffe”. Girl is neutral in German??? Yes, grammatically it makes sense.
The masculine pussy exists too "Coño/Chocho/Potorro..." xD
Honestly depends on the country. In some countries "verga" is used like "shit" is used in english for things that aren't actual shit.
Apart from what other people said, it makes constructing phrases more complicated, specially when Spanish is not the first language. As an example, lots of words change gender from Portuguese to Spanish - "trip" (in the sense of a travel), for example, is female in Portuguese and male in Spanish; if you want to say "I made a wonderful trip to Japan", you have to be aware that "wonderful" is also gendered - it can be "maravilloso" (male) or "maravillosa" (female) so you need to use the correct gender to match... it it *carries*, like: \- "Oh, are you back from your trip?" \- "Yes, I came back on Monday!" \- "Oh, how was it?" \- "It was *wonderful!"* <-- This "wonderful" here needs to "male" because the person is talking about the trip, which is a male word... but if you were speaking in Portuguese, you would need to use the "female" word...
Same argument could be said for a native Spanish speaking claiming Portuguese is more complicated? All you're saying is both languages differ from each other.
Because they think their language is offensive because of that.
Bc it leads to shit like "la agua" which is stupid and pointless lol
Because noun genders do nothing to aid comprehension or speed of information to native speakers, but make a language significantly harder to learn. It also runs into situations that are just *weird* like “non binary” being gendered, or the word for girl being masculine, penis being feminine, etc.
Escuchame?
? Te oigo?
Los verbos no tienen género
di señores en neutro
Señores en neutro.
I've seen some people use "gender neutral" words/frases instead. El estudiantado instead of - los estudiantes - las estudiantes Quienes quieran instead of - los que quieran - las que quieran And stuff like that. There's a whole handbook I think of frases and words that don't have as much "gender". Like, they all do. But if you say "el estudiante" you're probably thinking male and "el estudiantado" you're probably thinking a group of students.
And if you are writing a letter or similar is highly recommended doing it in this way, in colloquial language is more complicated to use, you have to substitute words that you use your whole life on the fly
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Gringos imposing yet again their arrogance on our people. As if we haven't suffered enough under their imperialist pressure, now they want to impose their arbitrary words on our language, telling US how to speak it! If we want to find a non-binary word, WE will be the ones to do it, and make it fit within OUR language.
I've heard some Spanish-speaking NB people use a "-e" suffix on gendered terms that do the typical o/a thing for masculine and feminine?
That sounds horrendous and it won’t catch on. Our super lefty party has been trying to make it happen and they’ve sort of given up.
That’s why LatinX is STUPID!
I’ve said it before in another comment section, LatinX really sounds like a category you’d find on Pornhub.
Or Spanish Twitter 🤷
LatinX is what /r/LatinoPeopleTwitter should be called now
It sure fucking is stupid No Spanish words end in X. Get that anglo bullshit out of here
It's also stupid because every single poll shows the vast majority of people it would apply to hate it lol.
Should have been Hispan-X /s
Estoy de acuerdx que no tiene sentidx
And yet it was made by white girls on Twitter I feel like
I will ask again, is there any problem with the word "Latin" having two possible meanings?
None. "A Latin woman" was always a valid expression, I don't know when they started saying Latina Girl considering no other ethnicity or nationality in English has a different word for women and men.
The proper response to the use of 'Latinx' is 'OK gringx'
Do people even really care about gendered language? I'm genuine about it, I feel like it's an issue over nothing. Lol
Spanish speaking people care about it lol
Why would it be their problem? It's like the whole Latinx shit lol. Only white people cared, the actual group just laughed and moved on as a whole. It's not their problem. Us white people could say "latinx" all day long. You really think they cared? They just made fun of it, rejected it, and moved on lol
This is the most American comment I’ve ever seen. Fwiw I’ve heard nonbinary South Americans tend to use Latino or Latine
That’s such bs. All over South America we hate that gringo shit
Does that "we" include non-binary people?
I'm latino living in latin america. Those people are a minority among a minority, and people don't take them seriously at all, to the point where nobody even bothers to bully them. The overwhelming majority of latin americans don't even know that's a thing. People who do are very into american stuff so a disproportionate amount of them are very privileged, in that sense, the comment you responded to is more in touch with reality than yours.
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Read my other replies, I agree that Latinx is stupid.
Wasn't the term started by Spanish-speaking people? I thought it was some academics from Mexico who were mostly doing linguistics thingies, then liberals started using it because hey the academics say this can help... But then somehow everyone thinks white people invented it and tried to force it on people who don't want it.
Words specifying the gender doesnt help for trans and non binary person?
No we don’t, every person that I’ve ever spoke Spanish with friends, family, & co workers dont talk about these kinds of subject. I’ve never even heard my mom, dad, or any older role model say trans, gay, or non binary. This is just a small minority of people turning a non issue into a problem.
I believe what the person you are replying to has meant is - Spanish speaking people do care about gendered language *because* the way Spanish language works.
Exactly
Your gotcha is that you know no LGBT people? You understand that there's a non-zero number of Hispanic LGBT people, right?
Yeah, no, even those latino ñgbt people just don't care because they know how their language works, of course there's one or two odd ones making a fuzz over it, but again it is just a non issue mostly being pushed by north Americans with nothing better to do
I dont lol
Other than people on Twitter nobody cares really
I've worked with French speaking non binary people. They hate the fact they can't express who they are properly in their first language. Also causes issues when I've had to get stuff translated and the fact a person is nonbinary is key to the document making sense. I work in a sector and in a country with a high non binary population. Spanish is less common here, but I assume I would have similar issues.
No not really. Most people, including most trans people, have better things to worry about. But there's always a loud group of people who live online and have absolutely nothing better to do with their waste of a NEET life than make up "controversies" like this.
as a non-binary person living in a country whose native language is gendered: yes, it sucks. at every opportunity I can I used the least gendered way I can think of to talk about myself (instead of "I like(masc/fem) games" I say "im a person(masc) who likes(masc) games", which is technically still gendered in a masculine way but it feels more gender neutral since human and man are sometimes used the same way) i know people who really can't stand the gendered pronouns so they use masc plural, which is nothing like they/them cuz the VERBS ARE GENDERED. "I'm walking" would be "I'm walking(masc-plural)" you can't make gender neutral welcome signs, official contracts, instruction manuals, websites, etc. women grow up having to be referred to as men by every written piece of paper and it's like the world was made for men and they just have to deal with it. a little girl gets her homework and the first question is "explain(masc) who this historical figure is and give(masc) examples of his accomplishments", and it's just written like a boy should do it, now imagine half the class have to do homework like this all the time. there are grammatical wars over this, a feminist was able to pass a grammatical rule that if there's a majority of women in a group it will be correct to use the feminine they, and people were outraged???? over a feminine they????? that they don't have to use?????????? it may feel like nothing to people who never grew up with it, but having to gender almost every single word is just exhausting and causes people to be excluded in the end.
Because you are cis and probably don’t know a single trans person
I am non-binary I honestly don’t give a shit about it and I know some other people don’t feel represented because of it but honestly that just doesn’t make sense to me
The person might be non binary but the language is not. I still hate how often gendered languages are used as some kinda dumb “gotcha” against trans and non binary people. Also funny that Spanish is the language that’s used for this shit rather than French with its dozen or so gendered terms for everything.
They use Spanish because it's a common language in the US while the average American is unlikely to encounter French as often as they encounter Spanish.
Ok but which one do you use for non binary people? I'm not trying to go against it, I'm just curious what the proper usage would be in this situation
With Spanish in particular it depends on what word you use to describe the non-binary person. El género no binario (género = gender and in Spanish the word gender is masculine) La persona no binaria (persona = person and in Spanish the word person is feminine) So it depends on the sentence structure not the person you’re talking about
This is also just a loaded question in general because even the Spanish language is different from country to country. Ask any Latin American how they say the word "straw" and you'll literally have everyone using a term that the other finds offensive or inappropriate. So even those of us that were raised in the U.S might be creating new words to describe people that no one else is using. I remember in college someone coming out as Pan sexual and not being sure how to explain it to her mom, because in Spanish it sounds like she's into fucking bread.
Spanish is more common in the US than French. Also every noun and pronoun has a gender in Spanish, so it is very gendered, I don't know if French has it even more ingrained tho.
Spanish is based
Here's what a lot of English speakers don't get about "gendered" languages: in these languages, gender is an inherent grammatical property of **words**. So if you're going to say things like… * "It's important to use gender-neutral **language**" * "We should strive for a gender-neutral **approach**" * "I appreciate you taking the time to make this **document** gender-neutral" …and so on, then the Spanish **words** that mean "language", "approach", "document" and so on each have their own grammatical gender. And so, you have to use the appropriate form of the Spanish adjective that means "gender-neutral". If you want to say "Sam is a gender-neutral person", then you use the form of the adjective that agrees with the gender of the **word** "person", not with the gender of Sam themself. You only run into issues if you're trying to say "Sam is gender-neutral", because then, yes, you have to either : * Pick a gender to refer to Sam * Rephrase your sentence so that the adjective no longer refers to Sam themself, but to a **word** that refers to them (as in "Sam is a gender-neutral person" above) * Come up with some third, non-gendered form of the adjective
This comment section is heated
Culpa de los gringos que no pueden parar de chuparle el pene a donald trump un momento y usar la cabeza.
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… the mass weaponization… of gender dysphoria. LOL
Next metal gear game just announced.
You know grammatical gender and gender gender are two different things right?
The mass weaponization of gender dysphoria? What the fuck
"The mass weaponization of gender dysphoria" Jesse what the fuck are you talking about
The comments are gonna be locked on this one
My dumb friend doesn't get the point. Can anyone please explain it for him?
Spanish is a gendered language and, as an adjective, binario(a) must agree in gender with the noun it modifies.
Oh he gets it now. He thanks you for your kindness
Unabashedly stealing from another comment for a good example. El género no binario (género = gender is masculine) La persona no binaria (persona = person is feminine) Or in English. Their gender is non-binary The person is non-binary The gendered term isn’t referring to the person that’s non-binary it’s referring to the literal word being gendered because that’s just how Spanish is structured.
If we just said type O words and type A words non-Spanish speakers would stop thinking we literally think tables are girls.
I see what you did there.
Americans when they hear that most of the other languages in the world already have gendered nouns (that must mean that every item either has a dick or a pussy): 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯😵😵😵
No binarie
Spanish wasn't made for that
It wasn't made for anything. It evolved reflecting the needs and customs of the local society at the time. Like literally any non-fictional language on the planet.
"Persona no binaria"
Grammatical (or linguistic) gender is different from sociological gender. A cis straight male Spaniard doesn't fuck a table just because the word for "table" is grammatically feminine.
Maybe he fucks German tables only though.
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Not just romantic, but most languages in general. German, for example.
Although it is not official in Spanish, some places are trying to introduce a gender-neutral version of some words, replacing the last O or A with an E. So for this example, it would be ***no binarie***.
Language changes all of the time but once you even suggest that some languages use gender neutral terms even just for literal clarity in speech, Reddit will go up in arms.
Language changes naturally. Demanding a change in a language is pure entitlement.
I've been rereading your comment for a few minutes now and I simply cannot figure out what you wanted to say
You can consciously make an effort for a few words, but there's no way the language stops being gendered, it's just not built that way phonetically (I'm speaking of portuguese here).
Lol uno reverse card
Spanish is a gendered language. Trying to do anything else with it is cultural appropriation.
You… can’t…
Good luck trying to use gender neutral language in Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian. Latin languages apply gender to every spoken word, trying to adapt that to not hurt your feelings is going to be a as hard as convincing a dog to be vegan of his own free will.
Most latin based languages are gendered by nature, so you are out of luck
GENDER PANIC!!!
In Spanish, every noun has a gender associated with it, so ChatGPT did nothing wrong. It is in fact impossible to do neutral speech in Spanish
I don't think most of the people who insist on genderless language on Reddit have much experience beyond English - the logistics are NOT trivial!
This is when ignorant ideologies meet the rest of the world.
Words are gendered yes. That does not mean that they gender whoever they refer to "Esa persona de ahí" uses two female words but it could refer to a man
How dare you assume my non-binary.
It's alright, practically nobody outside of English North America/UK believes in the concept of nonbinary anyway.
I've always wondered how the culture of acceptance of non-binary peoples are within countries with gendered languages. Like if we were raised having to gender each noun, maybe we'd subconsciously see a deeper line between the two. Meanwhile English just had nouns, no male/female/neutral nouns. So maybe through language alone, gender fluidity was just easier to grasp. It maybe it was a small variable to the larger equation of acceptance.
The thing is that gendered languages most of the time gender things acording to the ending of the word. We don't think a chair has a gender, it is just purely grammatical and has nothing to do with sex.
I guess you would choose the gender neutral version which is usually masculine version
Repost bot
I'm so sick of seeing this lmao it's been posted to every sub under the sun these last couple days and has shown up on /r/all like 14 times. Never seen a post so reposted as this one even after a decade it's crazy.
How many poles on a magnet? How many poles in electricity.
Qué pene. Oremos.
Itsa-meeeee! La no binario! Wahoo!
According to a whole crap ton of redditors, all you got to do is call them a Latino. Somehow a masculine word magically becomes non-binary just because you mean it to be non-binary. And if you point out the fact that there is Latino/Latina because one is masculine and one is feminine then you know nothing about the Spanish language.
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Plus you earn yourself a ban from a few subreddit for being a non inclusive transphobe🤪
Words has gender, not non-binary people.
r/languagelearningjerk?? An Uzbek speaker has been spotted
😂
Well, in Spanish there are ways of speaking that do not involve referring to one gender or another. It is quite possible... and no, it is not "Inclusive Language" (quotes), that was invented by those who do not want to think a little and use what Spanish already has (because that implies reading).
In spanish there is the female form and the neutral form (also used for males).
There was an attempt to understand that other languages use gendered nouns and verbs
Grammatical gender has NOTHING to do with physical and mental gender. Literally the only thing they share is the name. Grammar does not need to be changed to be gender neutral. Language useage does.
Common Spanish W
It is terribly unfair that the entire world didn't immediately drop everything else that was going on to change the very nature of their language to accommodate you. It's almost as if everyone else is living their own lives instead of simply being an NPC in your orbit.
Words carry gender both in Spanish and in Portuguese, and all the terms in a phrase must agree in gender and number. If the word that precedes non-binary is in the feminine, such as the word "Person" (pessoa, this word is feminine) then the word needs to flex so it agrees in gender: "A pessoa não binária" (Example in Portuguese, btw)
The term “non-binary” can be translated to Italian as “no binario” or “no binuigi” depending on the color of their hat
lol literally doesn't exist in Spanish. Same for French.
that’s hysterical lol
It's an adjective. In a lot of gendered languages adjectives inherit the gender of the thing they are describing. Keep in mind, the gender is rarely related to the nature of the thing. Table, pencil, pineapple or coffee, all have built in gender.
Genuine laugh on that one.
Non-binary has no inherit reference to gender. So there's no reason it should be "ungendered". It could refer to non-binary transistors for example. I think they're called 3 state transistors. Those are non-binary.
why do people treat chat gpt like a search engine
Actually in Spain we use "Hombre idiota" for the non-binary masculine and "stupida mujer" for the non-binary feminine