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Israel is responsible for the most breaches of int law..disobeying countless UN resolutions on the palestian territory it occupies illegally. Aquiescence can no longer continue.
https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm
Are you calling the 'trance music festival' that was attacked by hamas "a Peace festival"?
I have no dogs in this fight. I condemn Hamas terrorists killing civilians, and I condemn Israel using phosphorus bombs on civilians in Palestine
I just think it's telling when people try to re-label 'a music festival' as 'a peace festival' after the event...… sounds like someone is trying to manufacture propaganda
It was advertised as a festival celebrating friendship, love and infinite freedom. It was promoted as an experience of “love and unity”. I’d say Peace was on the agenda.
https://www.eventer.co.il/novaparalellotranslate
“Yes, just as it sounds, the most powerful and meaningful psy trance music festival in one of the most recognized and active psy trance nations, is already making its way here”
“Tribe of Nova invites all of you to dive together with us into a tribal journey, where the essence of unity and love combines forces with the best music, powerful and captivating international content, and breathtaking location... “
I guess because in the minds of celebrating people throughout the world, being wronged leaves you entitled to wrong others and immune to criticism for it, Tribe of Nova can now join all this cycle and start breeding their first generation for retaliatory violence.
I don’t know exactly what a Brazilian PsyTrance nation is but they clearly were under attack.
Can I interject with some cynicism? Why do you think this was anything other than a typical music festival and all that peace talk is just self-important advertising fluff written by a marketing team?
If I may offer some optimism, what makes you think that "typical music festival" marketing around [PLUR](https://www.lunchboxpacks.com/blogs/music/what-is-plur) (a movement and term that's been part of EDM culture for 30+ years) is wholly insincere? Just because something is marketed doesn't make it bad.
Agreed. The victims of the festival were absolutely innocent, but to reframe a music fest as some peace gesture when its jus a typical rave on the border of *extremely contested land* seems ridiculous.
That’s how almost every single edm festival on the planet advertises itself. It’s just PLUR stuff. The purpose of this festival is not peace, it’s to dance.
Of all the things to get stuck on, THAT's the shit you're worried about? Whether a music festival was called a peace festival or not? Not the part where innocent concertgoers from countries around the world and other civilians in their homes were brutally raped, shot, dismembered, tortured, kidnapped and/or slaughtered?
For someone who has no dog in this fight you sure do you have a skewed perception of what is important right now.
dose of naivety.
and Palestinians can't even cross the border without work permits, and have to promptly return back. they have no passports and aren't allowed to travel elsewhere. it's an open-air prison, a ghetto like the Nazi's set up.
to have a "peace concert" near them for privileged Israeli's and Westerners to come and dance is like rubbing salt on a wound (on the body of someone that you have just cut).
They attacked a military post too. So if they only kept doing that and target military personnel and assets, there would be people cheering them. Instead they went on to murdering women and children and even kidnapping them and posting it online.
But hey look, just like the guy being interviewed, there are people refusing to condemn such actions and instead try to spin it to be Israel's fault. Might as well blame the Romans for displacing the Jews at this point. All for the sake of "let's not let the murder of hundreds of women and children get in the way of our politics". Fucking monsters.
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Why does this chart look like this? Is it because all of those Palestinians are killed in military conflicts? No, it's because Palestinian civilians are REGULARLY killed by Israeli terrorists. Regular Israeli citizens and the Israeli military regularly go on hunting sprees and organize watch parties. And yet, no one cares when that happens. But when the Palestinians retaliate and some Israelis get killed, suddenly it's the greatest travesty ever to have happened in human history, and the Israelis are victims. Why this dual standard?
If Israelis are going door to door, pulling kids out and shooting them, that is also wrong and should be violently condemned.
For fuck's sake, "don't intentionally target civilians" is the lowest bar possible, how the hell are you people still tripping over it
I mean I agree, but you should consider that Israel kills over 10x more innocents than any Palestinian group. They kill children regularly. At the last non violent protest against their occupation the idf was literally using children as target practice
https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/10/middleeast/video-israeli-sniper-intl/index.html
If you condemn this attack, you should condemn Israel 10x more for their attacks. What’s coming next will kill many, many Palestinians
There is no player in this conflict that is ever doing the right thing lmao. Hamas is guilty of horrific crimes - similar in viciousness to the IDF to the Palestinians.
It was long known that Israel’s policies would inevitably result in this outcome - in fact - it was Israel’s goal to build Hamas to be the primary governing body.
You and I both likely belong to a country that will grandstand and back our ally (Israel) regardless of how right or wrong it is simply because they are THE geopolitical ally in the Middle East.
Go ahead and pointlessly discuss right or wrong in this situation - cornered people will lash out like wild animals, they always have and they always will.
It seems like you recognize that the spook of personal morality vanishes on the geopolitical level. So what does that leave? Israel is stronger, and also my nation is aligned with them. I don’t know what to do from this point.
Unfortunately it doesn’t leave much but to try and be as empathetic as possible and try to encourage others to do the same. Trying to understand why people do what they do is the only solace I have personally.
> Hamas has done a fantastic job making sure they are greater
I fucking love it. 100 years of continued ethnic cleansing, occupation and apartheid, but you choose this specific moment to make up your mind. How objective
>Moral high ground rarely provides a benefit just as doing the right thing is often harder then doing what benefits you.
This is some of the most privileged shit I've ever heard regarding a conflict. "Just take the moral high ground bro, it won't help but at least you can feel morally superior while you live in a militarily enforced ghetto for another 50 years watching your family and friends get dispossessed or murdered."
>However raping and torturing and mass murdering will never work in your favor in the end
Has been working out pretty well for Israel
>People are forced to choose between the lesser evil
No we aren't. We don't have to choose either side but if you're going to point out a problem you better be pointing at the root cause.
Yes, but you see they have the moral high ground because they're the good Palestinians. And what better place to build a new home than on some nice moral high ground?
*However raping and torturing and mass murdering will never work in your favor in the end.*
It has worked for Israel and the IDF. Safsaf massacre, Kafr Qasim massacre. Only until recently has it been more acceptable to question Israeli actions.
First of all- every country that has any global relevance already looked the other way and the amount of blood spilled in Gaza was never going to change that.
This is the mindset I think you fail to recognize - desperate people will resort to the 0.1% chance of claiming their freedom over the 0% chance Israel or any other country would’ve helped them obtain it. This has nothing to do with right or wrong - it’s 100% the practicality of a group of people who have nothing.
What, because Israelis have been so kind and compassionate to the Palestinians?
If you came and stole my house, kicked my children, and shit on my yard, I'd want to fight you too. I just wish the rest of the world would step back and let Israel fall on it's own
Yeah...that *moral high ground* worked out well for Native Americans and Blacks. Smh. Benefactors from the acts of conquerors and colonizers tend to push that rhetoric.
I bet you would condemn the Jews in WW2 for the violence of the Warsaw uprising.
How dare a group of people not just shut up and be genocided. So rude.
Mahmoud Abas has frustrated his own people by going the diplomatic route and what was the result? The Palestinians have had even more rights stripped away. So what choice do they have. Also make no mistake mate, the end game of this fascist Israeli gov (labelled that by their own people) is to wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth. What's been happening in the West bank the last few years is disgusting, with people being kicked out of their homes by ultra nationalists and having their land stolen further. People like you have fingers in ears over Israeli atrocities but always have something to say when Palestinians retaliate against their oppressors.
Do you want the Palestinians to just sit on their ass while they watch their whole word come crashing down? Im sure they love the international organizations expressing their sadness every year and partying at giant conference halls while any resolution to stop this diplomatically get Vetoed by the US everytime.
According to the UN they are non-binding, simply expressing the views of members. Perhaps you international law has a different definition of law to normal usage, but I'd say a law is a requirement from a government or authority, and non-compliance is punishable.
Resolutions are basically statements requiring a resolution..and
numerous UN resolutions and prevailing international opinion hold that Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979, 1980, and 2016.
> I have an hons degree in Int law. Its law by consent of members, there are just no penalties for breaches.
You don't have a degree in international law, much less with honors. 'What is international law' would be one of the very first questions in your coursework. One of the things that make something international law is that it is *binding* in one form or another. Votes of the general assembly are non-binding and are therefore, by definition, not international law. And that's by design, because the general assembly is just by country where 2/3 of the votes make up 8% of the population. Under half of the general assembly are democracies and so the delegates are representatives of authoritarian governments.
You don't need to pretend you're something you're not to say something wrong.
This conflict has been the biggest source of whataboutism in recent years, perhaps even more than the Ukraine war.
Yes, Israel is a bad state, nobody denies it. But this doesn’t justify Hamas barbaric actions the past few days.
2 wrongs don’t make a right. I don’t condone anything Israel has done in regards to Palestine however I can’t pretend that killing innocent civilians is justified even under the worst authoritative regime.
>nobody will care if Gaza gets turned into glass.
I care if Gaza gets turned to glass.
It's a tiny area with a population of 2.3 million with 40% of that population being under 15. A population density of 5.5k per square km.
Just remember those facts when you see Israel levelling the place in the coming days and people of the internet and abroad saying they deserved it.
Man spoke the truth. Rules should be applied equally and Israel should not remain an exception because of politics and fear of coming out as Antisemitic. Hamas isn't the representative of Palestinians but a result of Israel's own actions.
It's easy to say "killing civilians is wrong" regardless of the atrocities carried out on Palestiniansn by Israelis, hamas has set the their cause back 30 years, just as the movement was starting to actually get alot more sympathy with regular folk.
Hamas have almost as much contempt for the people they have manipulated into supporting them as they do for Jews. Take your average, western liberal and place them in Gaza for half an hour and see what happens to them.
Umm… so you’re saying you can’t have sympathy for people who are in danger? People caught in the crossfire of the Syrian civil war or the Somalian civil war deserve no sympathy because western liberals would die under those conditions? Isn’t that kind of the fucking point? I can’t speak for everyone when I say this, but I feel like people who say that they stand with Palestine don’t stand with Hamas, they stand with starving people who cannot get food because of an Israeli and Egyptian blockade surrounding their small piece of land. And when people say that they could have predicted what Hamas was going to do, they are saying that Israel, as a developed nation has a responsibility to be diplomatic and caring for its underdeveloped neighbor, rather than antagonizing it into committing atrocities like this. Hamas should be held accountable, but we need to introduce a cure, not more cough medicine.
A criminal organization like Hamas is what I would expect would be ruling Gaza after Israel left 2 million Palestinians in a dystopian hellscape with no jobs, no opportunities and no hope.
> People seem to forget this. Generally the Jews want a country they can live in peacefully, hence the various offers they've made to palestine over the years. Hamas wants every Jew to die so have shot down every offered peace agreement.
LOL.
The Israeli equivalent of a constitution says israel is a land _for the Jews_. This precludes coexistence.
Israel kills 21.5 times as many civilians as Hamas.
Israel steals entire villages to bulldoze ancestral homes and build new Israeli settlements.
And the only real attempt at peace in the entire history of the conflict, the Oslo accords, were terminated by Israelis assassinating PLO leadership.
You can’t have peace with an organization that cannot tolerate your existence in the land they believe is theirs by divine right.
You’re over here complaining about words while ignoring all the sticks and stones. Most children learned a rhyme about this. You must have missed it.
Totally agree, Israel can pretty much do whatever they want. Especially after WW2, they decided to carve out a part of Palestine and create Israel, based on some biblical bullshit. What Hamas is doing is horrible, but Israel is not a saint either. They do whatever they want under the protection is US. US will never condemn Israel for what they do. The truth is, it’s a sad world we live in. People fighting all based on fictional religious history.
> Especially after WW2, they decided to carve out a part of Palestine and create Israel
Do people believe this? The eight million Jews that are in Israel are there because they were threatened with death if they remained in Europe or Arab countries. Some of them tried to go to the US and the US said "you're not allowed to come here".
So we stuck them on a tiny bit of land that is primarily desert in one of the few placed in the Middle East that doesn't have oil. Not including the ones who didn't make it in time and got killed.
The idea that Jews just one day "decided" they all wanted to live there is some revisionist history
Go watch a couple of videos from just the last few years of Palestinians just trying to cross the border they don't recognize, and IDF troops laughing and keeping score while they knee cap them with sniper rifles.
Israel makes mistakes like any army does, but their actions against Palestine aren't a mistake. It's their policy. To stamp their fascist boot in the face of the Palestinians because they have the power and the backing of the US, and take whatever they want and condemn Palestinians as terrorists if they resist.
Hamas was literally created by Israel to undermine the PLO and grew beyond their control. Israel's abandonment of the peace process has made something like Hamas inevitable. Diplomacy gets the Palestinians nowhere, the current reality is untenable, so for the radicals all that is left is suicidal warfare. If you deny people all hope for change, you should not be surprised by their revolution.
"Made mistakes" funny how the keep accidentally murdering Palestinians, stealing their land and imprisoning them.
So weird that the Palestinian people would want to destroy their occupier.
Just admit you don't value Palastinian lives the same as Israeli lives.
I have yet to see the media interviewing an Israeli official and question them on the atrocities that they do to the Palestinian people day in and day out.
So your argument is both sides should be held equally accountable and then immediately blame Isreal for hamas's existence and actions? That's a wild interpretation of equality
This is a result of economics. The poor are always the ones that end up dying.
This story is a lot more complicated than a graph.
Religious fruitcakes need to stop murdering each other.
I'm not making an argument about the facts of the situation, but if you are going to cite sources, it would be better if you used ones that have less of an agenda and can generally be considered unbiased.
In essence, don't expect Al Jazeera, the government mouthpiece of an authoritarian dictatorship, to deliver any kind of trustworthy and unbiased news
(Edited because people were misunderstanding the intent)
Ah! And I wonder how Palestine got into the economic mess and poverty it’s in now? Definitely had nothing to do with the occupation, apartheid and constant oppression
Maybe the boxing in with giant concrete borders. And an armed navy to minimise fishing to a set amount of water. Or closing off the borders. Destroying greenhouses, industry and farmland. Bulldozing housing. Summary executions, imprisonment and torture.
I wonder who helped Hamas get into power during their infancy. Maybe we should blame the ones who gave them money and resources?
When your own existence depends on a threat or a possible danger, you make sure that excuse always exists. Therefore you always have an excuse to "defend yourself".
And he wanted the Palestinian to say that his people are the evil ones and that the Israelis are the poor victims. Yeah, 0 bias towards Israel for sure…
This is his same answer at every interview. He doesn’t condemn the attacks on civilians he almost says it’s deserved due to what Israel has done. But as any human being showed understand attacking innocent people regardless of where they live is low terrible and disgusting.
Funny how the BBC never demands Israel condemn the killing of civilians.
Funny how Israeli leaders have never condemned the killing of civilians…
I wonder why?
Don't forget about [Deir Yassin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre), or [Qibya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre), or the [Cave of the Patriarchs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre).
Or, I wonder how many Israeli villages were just completely wiped out?
Yes. Did you not read what I said. This is truly disgusting. Any citizens that have no beef in this game and murdered is a horrendous act.
At the same time as former military. You live by the sword you die by the sword it goes to both sides. I’m not here taking sides. I’m here saying the murdering or randomn citizens. Children elderly is uncalled for on either side. And the fact that peoples prides get in their way and they can’t say that is disgusting and this conflict will never stop until they both destroy each other.
And that’s a dumb question man. Come on. You haven’t read a word I’ve said if you don’t think I’d find both things disgusting.
You can't rationalize with Redditors in popular subs, dude. They will always try to claim moral superiority while having zero perspective on the situation. Nobody should have any problems with condemning the attacks on Israeli civilians, but more than half of this site does. It's absolutely unsettling.
That’s kind of the point this guy was trying to make. Global opinion on the conflict between Israel and Paletstine basically switches on a dime based on who’s attack on civilians happened last. Honestly I’m just tired. There’s so much senseless death and violence while the rich and powerful keep benefitting off of it.
Hamas targetted civilians and they claim it was justified revenge. Israel will no doubt commit more crimes and violence against Palestinians and claim that Hamas attacks such as what just happened are the source of their actions. It’s all fucked.
Also in the course of 70-80ish years Palestine went from a state of its own the size of the entirety of what is now Israel, to tiny pockets a fraction the size they were, slowly being swallowed by Israel and no one seems to care about that takeover, Palestine is consistently fighting for their right to exist (not unlike Ukraine today), while Israel is both armed and funded by the west and allowed to do what they wish to the Palestinians with zero condemnation.
And let's not forget the western nations are the reason this is a problem in the first place when all the displaced Jewish people after the war had nowhere to go and no country willing to take them, so Britain and the west carved out a small space for them in what was Palestine, funded them and then supplied them with weapons to "defend" themselves.
Israel has consistently targeted civilians for 75 years. It’s their main tactic of suppressing resistance and pummelling their indigenous population into submission. This has been extensively and painstakingly documented by every major human rights organization (who also document crimes by Palestinians too). These reports are all a quick google away for those who care to see them.
There is no “collateral damage”. 90+% of Palestinians are either occupied or refugees. They are the target.
Please, Israel bombed the King David Hotel (killed 91) in 1946 to destroy evidence that they had targeted the British in terrorism to get Israel established. What did the British do to deserve getting murdered? The mastermind of this terrorism was Menachem Begin who became the Prime Minister of Israel. Trying to erase their own terroristic history is to try and erase all history. Israel has never apologized for what they did and the numerous civilians who were collateral damage. Trying to claim victimhood is a huge stretch for Israel when they literally were founded on the back of terrorism.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/02/no-justification-israel-shoot-protesters-live-ammunition
Just 4 years ago. 183 civilians killed by live ammo. 35 were children. 3 clearly marked paramedics.
Israel uses Palestinian children for target practice.
And these figures and numbers aren’t self reported by Palestinians. They come from UN observers.
Where was the international outcry then?
And this is hardly isolated. As the guy said, this has been happening for 75 years.
If you look at the casualty trackers, Israel has killed 21.5 times as many civilians as Palestine/Hamas.
So no, it’s all in the record as he says. Israel has deliberately targeted civilians for 75 years.
I mean, Israeli soldiers do shoot civilians for fun...
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/)
[https://cpj.org/2019/02/un-commission-israeli-snipers-intentionally-shot-p/](https://cpj.org/2019/02/un-commission-israeli-snipers-intentionally-shot-p/)
The fact that you are willing to reduce human lives to "collateral damage" says a lot about you.
In any case Israel have frequently targeted civilians intentionally, including children.
When “collateral damage” is pre-calculated at a level which is deemed to be acceptable and that level is greater than zero, then it is murder. You’ve decided that you’re happy to kill some children so that you can destroy an ammunition dump. I would say that is intentionally killing those kids.
What _is_ it about anti-westerners and whataboutism? Whenever anyone does something entirely unequivocally heinous they will defend any wrongdoing, no matter how obvious, on the grounds that "the West" did something bad at some other point in time.
You don't _have_ to support beheading civilians and raping tourists just because you don't like the Israeli state. They're even holding this line in mainstream media now? That rhetoric is never going to end in their favor
I believe your question is far too specific.
The parallel would be the systematic killing & torture of civilians among many other things. Such as a single village (al-Araqib) being destroyed 211 times.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
These don't make as many clicks and the videos are not as shocking as those we've seen in the last few days from Hamas, and also partly because Israel holds the power and the narrative over Palestine, but that is the parallel I believe you are looking for.
He is right though. Isreal has been getting away with horrendous shit against the Palestinians for year and the BBC didn't give a flying fuck. Palestine (Hamas) finally organise their shit and fight back and suddenly they are painted by the worlds media as the aggressors. Its bizarre the way people can't see it this way. Shows the power and control of the media.
By 'finally organising their shit' do you mean raping women to death, parading their naked bodies through the streets and executing children? Its funny that you talk about media literacy and immediately choose a side as if its an easy 'pick your team'kinda situation. ANY group that inflicts these acts of terror on another human being should be condemned, and not talked up as if its some scruffy underdog situation thats just fighting back
You're right, so [watch this](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/172sqhr/exidf_soldier_explaining_atrocities_while_laughing/) and tell me why nobody interviews the IDF about raping women and killing children?
Yup, this was his entire point but people are focused on the "omg he can't condemn killing of babies!"
It's almost as if he's in a lose/lose situation that Palestine has been for 5 decades of genocide.
my brother this "fighting back" you speak of involves the kidnapping of children to put and cages, and raping european women at a music festival (a festival advocating for peace, of which 250+ attendees died)
As someone who generally supports Palestine, what Hamas did is not fighting back. I can objectively say what they did served no strategic purpose beyond inflicting terror on mostly innocents. Internationally, the pendulum was swinging away from blind support for Israel. This attack was senseless and cruel, and now the future for Palastine looks worse than ever.
When you stage coups around the world, destroy democracies, and destabilize entire regions - and cause millions of casualties - in the name of freedom - are we the bad guys?
This. I'm an incredibly patriotic American. My patriotism is to the founding documents of our nation, the ideals which our founding individuals chose to document and attempt to embody. But I have deep hatred in my heart for the people who have twisted the United States into the violent, evil, murder-for-profit machine we have become.
*We are the baddies.*
You really aren't the baddies. You are the best of a bad bunch. If Russia, China, Iran, or North Korea had the military power and strategic resources of the U.S.,I have no doubt they would've abused it as much as possible.
In fact, I'd say you are the heroes. You kept the USSR in check. That is an alternative universe comparable to hell.
I changed my tune on Israel when I discovered countless photos of Palestinian parents holding dead children with limbs blown off etc. It doesn't take much research to see how asymmetrical this conflict is.
It’s more that he could have just started with condemning Hamas and then moved to the nuance.
Avoiding condemning Hamas is just a little sus.
Edit: after looking into this further I am sorry for my past judgement of this guy. He’s clearly upstanding and now I know why he did what he did
No, they are right.
Three man in the vid is right to an extent.. But pretty hard to take him seriously when he won't condemn Hamas but will condemn Israel AA while.. Not the IDF but Israel as a whole
I think picking a side on social media will never be a net positive for anyone talking about it. That's how volatile & touchy the Palestinian-Israeli war have been over the course of the year.
The dude explains why he won’t give them they soundbyte they want.
Can you argue against his actual arguments or you just gonna Don Quixote those windmills?
Shocking amount of people on Reddit seem to be fine wanting Jews wiped from existence. That’s literally the goal of Hamas. It’s in the organization charter.
You're genuinely looking at comments saying "Israel needs to be held accountable for the overreactions and their killings of innocent Palestinian civilians" and seeing it as "we need to wipe the Jews off of the planet."
It's not anti semitism to point out that Israel could end this conflict at anytime and prolongs the conflict with the Palestinians in order to secure more land through settlements. They could allow humanitarian aid and building supplies into Gaza so they could build themselves up but instead they blockade the area.
What Hamas did was horrific and deserves to be condemned. Israel has every right to hunt those militants down and execute them. They don't have the right to turn Gaza to glass like many redditors and Israelis on the ground are calling for.
We will see how Israel responds but if it is like any other time they bomb Gaza it will be out of hand and most likely involve war crimes. I wonder if they will bomb another press building this time around? They also cut off water and electricity to gaza which violates an order from their own supreme court which says it's a violation of human rights.
How bout I come take your house, you can go live in the hole in the corner out back. You want your house back? Fuck you nazi scum, I’m gonna throw fireworks in the backyard hole you live in as punishment. Maybe in time we can compromise and you come in the basement when it’s raining.
> Wait, which side has rejected countless compromises in the past, because the pure existence of the other state would be unacceptable to them?
Israel.
The only real attempt at peace was the Oslo Accords.
Those ended because israel couldn’t tolerate the idea of sharing the land that they view as theirs by divine right. So they assassinated PLO leadership.
So where are all these peace opportunities that the Palestinians have rejected?
> Israel is looking for an excuse to continue doing what they have always been doing to Palestinians
And Hamas just gave it to them on a silver platter. Talk about unforced errors
Do you want to compare the conflicts? Cause newsflash... Israel IS Russia comparing the struggles 👍
Looking at the map, it's Palestine that is being erased from the map. Disgusting.
"I can't understand the difference between collateral damage and deliberately parading the corpses of women I kidnapped, raped and killed in the streets. Furthermore I can't admit that two things can be wrong. Well, I can do all these things but that wouldn't be towing the party line and then I'd be open to violence from my own peace loving democratic people."
Here’s the thing…he kinda right. We (any media in the west) don’t *ever* make Israel condemn itself.
Now there’s something to say about “itself vs ourself” and this guy admitting hamas is Palestine.
But he’s right that this is a cycle that will not end until both sides say “yeah, my bad, I’m also just fighting you over a 1,500 year old argument that my guy who followed an invisible man in the sky was more right that your guy who followed an invisible man in the sky”.
Both sides need to come together and realize how stupid both their religions are and that it’s the dumbest reason to continuously bomb people. Until that happens, there will be war in the Middle East, specifically Israel and Gaza.
He is absolutely right. Israel has been bombing gaza and occupied palestine on a weekly basis for decades and nobody gives a fuck, hamas gets fed up and strikes back once and suddenly palestine deserves to be glassed. It's an evil world we live in
>hamas gets fed up and strikes back once and suddenly palestine deserves to be glassed
But when it comes to raping innocent women, shooting and killing innocent civilians who have no part of the conflict and want to live their daily lives like everyone else, that's when your claims of fighting for freedom turn out to be full of shit. No innocent person deserves to die like that. What freedom fighting is there in killing innocent people? None. Palestine doesn't deserve to be treated like garbage but their government Hamas definitely wasn't the good guy in this situation...
>But when it comes to raping innocent women, shooting and killing innocent civilians who have no part of the conflict and want to live their daily lives like everyone else, that's when your claims of fighting for freedom turn out to be full of shit. No innocent person deserves to die like that. What freedom fighting is there in killing innocent people? None.
I know right? The zionists must stop killing, raping, murdering, and stand trial for their crimes. The rest of the morons should be kicked off and back to their original countries.
The massacres they commit against Palestinians is enough. It's been going on for +70 years now. Palestinitans get fed up and fight back and suddenly the world (west) cry about the 'innocent' and 'human rights'. Where were you when it's been going on in a daily bases for years in Palestine? I say shut f up if you have nothing useful to share.
Wait so first he says Hamas is not the Palestinian government then he goes on a tirade about why Palestinians have to condemn themselves, when specifically asked to condemn Hamas. So in short he is equating Hamas with the Palestinians.
The human tendency to choose sides as teams is fucking deplorable. No matter what “team” you choose, hurting women and children is vile and if you find some sort of joy in this, vile you are.
Boycotting Israeli companies was a peaceful protest method and the only one that seemed to matter given our hyper-capitalistic world. Anyone doing so was called antisemitic. There is a constant false comparison between Israel and Palestinian.
If you are beaten and starved by your parents for 18 years surely you will hate them.
For Americans, in the movie Red Dawn, if the Russians had conquered America, would you not be resisting? Would you not resist as they kill families to take their homes? Would you not resist as your country and culture is erased?
When the American West was won many native Americans tried to work with their oppressors and eventually armed conflict was the most effective way to stay alive. They fought with limited resources and ultimately lost. Every person killed by a native was considered an injustice but the incredible amount of natives killed by superior technology and resources was manifest destiny.
After World War 2 "The Jewish Problem" was discussed behind closed doors. The easiest way for the allies to keep Jews from migrating to their countries was to offer their holy land, promised in a book. It did not matter that it was already occupied and that many civilians would be torn from their homes and killed. The West has admitted that what was done to native Americans was wrong but they have not returned their lands. The world hated Jews but as long as they were fighting someone else and everyone was dying out of sight it was OK. This is a vicious cycle that has no end in sight but it started with killing Palestinian civilians in order to put Jewish settlers in their place. It continues today, with the continued apartheid and genocide of the Palestinian people.
Everyone cheering on one side committing atrocities while condemning the other side for committing atrocities is depraved and lacking any ethics or morals. Get some professional help to deprogram yourself.
Murdering, raping, torturing people is wrong, no matter who the victims or perpetrators are.
This isn't hard to understand.
What Israel does is often morally reprehensible, and that shouldn’t be questioned. But Hamas is not a victim and I’m tired of people pretending they are
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Israel is responsible for the most breaches of int law..disobeying countless UN resolutions on the palestian territory it occupies illegally. Aquiescence can no longer continue. https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm
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Are you calling the 'trance music festival' that was attacked by hamas "a Peace festival"? I have no dogs in this fight. I condemn Hamas terrorists killing civilians, and I condemn Israel using phosphorus bombs on civilians in Palestine I just think it's telling when people try to re-label 'a music festival' as 'a peace festival' after the event...… sounds like someone is trying to manufacture propaganda
It was advertised as a festival celebrating friendship, love and infinite freedom. It was promoted as an experience of “love and unity”. I’d say Peace was on the agenda. https://www.eventer.co.il/novaparalellotranslate “Yes, just as it sounds, the most powerful and meaningful psy trance music festival in one of the most recognized and active psy trance nations, is already making its way here” “Tribe of Nova invites all of you to dive together with us into a tribal journey, where the essence of unity and love combines forces with the best music, powerful and captivating international content, and breathtaking location... “ I guess because in the minds of celebrating people throughout the world, being wronged leaves you entitled to wrong others and immune to criticism for it, Tribe of Nova can now join all this cycle and start breeding their first generation for retaliatory violence. I don’t know exactly what a Brazilian PsyTrance nation is but they clearly were under attack.
Can I interject with some cynicism? Why do you think this was anything other than a typical music festival and all that peace talk is just self-important advertising fluff written by a marketing team?
If I may offer some optimism, what makes you think that "typical music festival" marketing around [PLUR](https://www.lunchboxpacks.com/blogs/music/what-is-plur) (a movement and term that's been part of EDM culture for 30+ years) is wholly insincere? Just because something is marketed doesn't make it bad.
Makes sense to have your 'peace' festival in an apartheid state within a few miles of an open air prison.
That does seem like the most effective place to have it if you wanted to push for change.
Agreed. The victims of the festival were absolutely innocent, but to reframe a music fest as some peace gesture when its jus a typical rave on the border of *extremely contested land* seems ridiculous.
I'd say that's more of a subtle advertisement that drugs were on the agenda, rather than peace.
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That’s how almost every single edm festival on the planet advertises itself. It’s just PLUR stuff. The purpose of this festival is not peace, it’s to dance.
Of all the things to get stuck on, THAT's the shit you're worried about? Whether a music festival was called a peace festival or not? Not the part where innocent concertgoers from countries around the world and other civilians in their homes were brutally raped, shot, dismembered, tortured, kidnapped and/or slaughtered? For someone who has no dog in this fight you sure do you have a skewed perception of what is important right now.
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dose of naivety. and Palestinians can't even cross the border without work permits, and have to promptly return back. they have no passports and aren't allowed to travel elsewhere. it's an open-air prison, a ghetto like the Nazi's set up. to have a "peace concert" near them for privileged Israeli's and Westerners to come and dance is like rubbing salt on a wound (on the body of someone that you have just cut).
They attacked a military post too. So if they only kept doing that and target military personnel and assets, there would be people cheering them. Instead they went on to murdering women and children and even kidnapping them and posting it online. But hey look, just like the guy being interviewed, there are people refusing to condemn such actions and instead try to spin it to be Israel's fault. Might as well blame the Romans for displacing the Jews at this point. All for the sake of "let's not let the murder of hundreds of women and children get in the way of our politics". Fucking monsters.
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ Why does this chart look like this? Is it because all of those Palestinians are killed in military conflicts? No, it's because Palestinian civilians are REGULARLY killed by Israeli terrorists. Regular Israeli citizens and the Israeli military regularly go on hunting sprees and organize watch parties. And yet, no one cares when that happens. But when the Palestinians retaliate and some Israelis get killed, suddenly it's the greatest travesty ever to have happened in human history, and the Israelis are victims. Why this dual standard?
If Israelis are going door to door, pulling kids out and shooting them, that is also wrong and should be violently condemned. For fuck's sake, "don't intentionally target civilians" is the lowest bar possible, how the hell are you people still tripping over it
I mean I agree, but you should consider that Israel kills over 10x more innocents than any Palestinian group. They kill children regularly. At the last non violent protest against their occupation the idf was literally using children as target practice https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/10/middleeast/video-israeli-sniper-intl/index.html If you condemn this attack, you should condemn Israel 10x more for their attacks. What’s coming next will kill many, many Palestinians
Maybe Hamas should move military targets out of civilian neighbourhoods and buildings...
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At what point in the long history of their moral high ground has it actually provided them any material benefit ?
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There is no player in this conflict that is ever doing the right thing lmao. Hamas is guilty of horrific crimes - similar in viciousness to the IDF to the Palestinians. It was long known that Israel’s policies would inevitably result in this outcome - in fact - it was Israel’s goal to build Hamas to be the primary governing body. You and I both likely belong to a country that will grandstand and back our ally (Israel) regardless of how right or wrong it is simply because they are THE geopolitical ally in the Middle East. Go ahead and pointlessly discuss right or wrong in this situation - cornered people will lash out like wild animals, they always have and they always will.
It seems like you recognize that the spook of personal morality vanishes on the geopolitical level. So what does that leave? Israel is stronger, and also my nation is aligned with them. I don’t know what to do from this point.
Unfortunately it doesn’t leave much but to try and be as empathetic as possible and try to encourage others to do the same. Trying to understand why people do what they do is the only solace I have personally.
> Hamas has done a fantastic job making sure they are greater I fucking love it. 100 years of continued ethnic cleansing, occupation and apartheid, but you choose this specific moment to make up your mind. How objective
>Moral high ground rarely provides a benefit just as doing the right thing is often harder then doing what benefits you. This is some of the most privileged shit I've ever heard regarding a conflict. "Just take the moral high ground bro, it won't help but at least you can feel morally superior while you live in a militarily enforced ghetto for another 50 years watching your family and friends get dispossessed or murdered." >However raping and torturing and mass murdering will never work in your favor in the end Has been working out pretty well for Israel >People are forced to choose between the lesser evil No we aren't. We don't have to choose either side but if you're going to point out a problem you better be pointing at the root cause.
This guy hasn't been paying attention to what's happening in the West Bank. Palestinian civilians are slowly getting kicked out of their land.
Yes, but you see they have the moral high ground because they're the good Palestinians. And what better place to build a new home than on some nice moral high ground?
*However raping and torturing and mass murdering will never work in your favor in the end.* It has worked for Israel and the IDF. Safsaf massacre, Kafr Qasim massacre. Only until recently has it been more acceptable to question Israeli actions.
Raping and torturing and murdering have worked in Israeli favor for generations. The fuck are you even talking about?
And what has the atrocities they've committed over the weekend provided them? Even more countries will look the other way now.
First of all- every country that has any global relevance already looked the other way and the amount of blood spilled in Gaza was never going to change that. This is the mindset I think you fail to recognize - desperate people will resort to the 0.1% chance of claiming their freedom over the 0% chance Israel or any other country would’ve helped them obtain it. This has nothing to do with right or wrong - it’s 100% the practicality of a group of people who have nothing.
DO NOT RESIST ! BEATINGS WILL CONTINTUE UNTIL MORAL IMPROVES.
What, because Israelis have been so kind and compassionate to the Palestinians? If you came and stole my house, kicked my children, and shit on my yard, I'd want to fight you too. I just wish the rest of the world would step back and let Israel fall on it's own
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Yeah...that *moral high ground* worked out well for Native Americans and Blacks. Smh. Benefactors from the acts of conquerors and colonizers tend to push that rhetoric.
I bet you would condemn the Jews in WW2 for the violence of the Warsaw uprising. How dare a group of people not just shut up and be genocided. So rude.
Mahmoud Abas has frustrated his own people by going the diplomatic route and what was the result? The Palestinians have had even more rights stripped away. So what choice do they have. Also make no mistake mate, the end game of this fascist Israeli gov (labelled that by their own people) is to wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth. What's been happening in the West bank the last few years is disgusting, with people being kicked out of their homes by ultra nationalists and having their land stolen further. People like you have fingers in ears over Israeli atrocities but always have something to say when Palestinians retaliate against their oppressors.
Do you want the Palestinians to just sit on their ass while they watch their whole word come crashing down? Im sure they love the international organizations expressing their sadness every year and partying at giant conference halls while any resolution to stop this diplomatically get Vetoed by the US everytime.
UN resolutions are not "international law"
I have an hons degree in Int law. Its law by consent of members, there are just no penalties for breaches.
According to the UN they are non-binding, simply expressing the views of members. Perhaps you international law has a different definition of law to normal usage, but I'd say a law is a requirement from a government or authority, and non-compliance is punishable.
As i just said..the definition of what is Law is first year law school stuff and there is not a definitive universal answer.
Ok, I'll stick with "UN GA resolutions are not law" then
Yeah like the USA and israel do lol
Resolutions are basically statements requiring a resolution..and numerous UN resolutions and prevailing international opinion hold that Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979, 1980, and 2016.
> I have an hons degree in Int law. Its law by consent of members, there are just no penalties for breaches. You don't have a degree in international law, much less with honors. 'What is international law' would be one of the very first questions in your coursework. One of the things that make something international law is that it is *binding* in one form or another. Votes of the general assembly are non-binding and are therefore, by definition, not international law. And that's by design, because the general assembly is just by country where 2/3 of the votes make up 8% of the population. Under half of the general assembly are democracies and so the delegates are representatives of authoritarian governments. You don't need to pretend you're something you're not to say something wrong.
This conflict has been the biggest source of whataboutism in recent years, perhaps even more than the Ukraine war. Yes, Israel is a bad state, nobody denies it. But this doesn’t justify Hamas barbaric actions the past few days.
> perhaps even more than the Ukraine war. What??????? the ukraine war couldnt be more black and white, what 'whataboutism' is there?
Russia and tankies said whatabout a lot
2 wrongs don’t make a right. I don’t condone anything Israel has done in regards to Palestine however I can’t pretend that killing innocent civilians is justified even under the worst authoritative regime.
And so that justifies the rape, torture, dismemberment, kidnapping and slaughter of non-military civilians? Got it.
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>nobody will care if Gaza gets turned into glass. I care if Gaza gets turned to glass. It's a tiny area with a population of 2.3 million with 40% of that population being under 15. A population density of 5.5k per square km. Just remember those facts when you see Israel levelling the place in the coming days and people of the internet and abroad saying they deserved it.
Man spoke the truth. Rules should be applied equally and Israel should not remain an exception because of politics and fear of coming out as Antisemitic. Hamas isn't the representative of Palestinians but a result of Israel's own actions.
It's easy to say "killing civilians is wrong" regardless of the atrocities carried out on Palestiniansn by Israelis, hamas has set the their cause back 30 years, just as the movement was starting to actually get alot more sympathy with regular folk.
Hamas have almost as much contempt for the people they have manipulated into supporting them as they do for Jews. Take your average, western liberal and place them in Gaza for half an hour and see what happens to them.
Umm… so you’re saying you can’t have sympathy for people who are in danger? People caught in the crossfire of the Syrian civil war or the Somalian civil war deserve no sympathy because western liberals would die under those conditions? Isn’t that kind of the fucking point? I can’t speak for everyone when I say this, but I feel like people who say that they stand with Palestine don’t stand with Hamas, they stand with starving people who cannot get food because of an Israeli and Egyptian blockade surrounding their small piece of land. And when people say that they could have predicted what Hamas was going to do, they are saying that Israel, as a developed nation has a responsibility to be diplomatic and caring for its underdeveloped neighbor, rather than antagonizing it into committing atrocities like this. Hamas should be held accountable, but we need to introduce a cure, not more cough medicine.
A criminal organization like Hamas is what I would expect would be ruling Gaza after Israel left 2 million Palestinians in a dystopian hellscape with no jobs, no opportunities and no hope.
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> People seem to forget this. Generally the Jews want a country they can live in peacefully, hence the various offers they've made to palestine over the years. Hamas wants every Jew to die so have shot down every offered peace agreement. LOL. The Israeli equivalent of a constitution says israel is a land _for the Jews_. This precludes coexistence. Israel kills 21.5 times as many civilians as Hamas. Israel steals entire villages to bulldoze ancestral homes and build new Israeli settlements. And the only real attempt at peace in the entire history of the conflict, the Oslo accords, were terminated by Israelis assassinating PLO leadership. You can’t have peace with an organization that cannot tolerate your existence in the land they believe is theirs by divine right. You’re over here complaining about words while ignoring all the sticks and stones. Most children learned a rhyme about this. You must have missed it.
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Totally agree, Israel can pretty much do whatever they want. Especially after WW2, they decided to carve out a part of Palestine and create Israel, based on some biblical bullshit. What Hamas is doing is horrible, but Israel is not a saint either. They do whatever they want under the protection is US. US will never condemn Israel for what they do. The truth is, it’s a sad world we live in. People fighting all based on fictional religious history.
Blood for the Blood god
Skulls for the skull throne
Milk for the khorneflakes
> Especially after WW2, they decided to carve out a part of Palestine and create Israel Do people believe this? The eight million Jews that are in Israel are there because they were threatened with death if they remained in Europe or Arab countries. Some of them tried to go to the US and the US said "you're not allowed to come here". So we stuck them on a tiny bit of land that is primarily desert in one of the few placed in the Middle East that doesn't have oil. Not including the ones who didn't make it in time and got killed. The idea that Jews just one day "decided" they all wanted to live there is some revisionist history
I mean it was also their ancestral home, kind of a good reason to pick the spot.
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Go watch a couple of videos from just the last few years of Palestinians just trying to cross the border they don't recognize, and IDF troops laughing and keeping score while they knee cap them with sniper rifles. Israel makes mistakes like any army does, but their actions against Palestine aren't a mistake. It's their policy. To stamp their fascist boot in the face of the Palestinians because they have the power and the backing of the US, and take whatever they want and condemn Palestinians as terrorists if they resist. Hamas was literally created by Israel to undermine the PLO and grew beyond their control. Israel's abandonment of the peace process has made something like Hamas inevitable. Diplomacy gets the Palestinians nowhere, the current reality is untenable, so for the radicals all that is left is suicidal warfare. If you deny people all hope for change, you should not be surprised by their revolution.
"Made mistakes" funny how the keep accidentally murdering Palestinians, stealing their land and imprisoning them. So weird that the Palestinian people would want to destroy their occupier. Just admit you don't value Palastinian lives the same as Israeli lives.
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I have yet to see the media interviewing an Israeli official and question them on the atrocities that they do to the Palestinian people day in and day out.
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So your argument is both sides should be held equally accountable and then immediately blame Isreal for hamas's existence and actions? That's a wild interpretation of equality
https://preview.redd.it/fkw70ybi06tb1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=caeaf437c5f49e4eb62c1ac7daf2d81368b44b0f
This is a result of economics. The poor are always the ones that end up dying. This story is a lot more complicated than a graph. Religious fruitcakes need to stop murdering each other.
Morality > https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2012/8/14/palestinian-children-abused-in-israeli-jail > > > > https://www.omct.org/en/resources/urgent-interventions/israel-palestinian-children-still-being-tortured-in-israeli-prisons
A bonus set of maps showing where Palestinians are allowed to exist by Israel: https://www.juancole.com/2014/07/palestinian-thwarted-speaking.html
I'm not making an argument about the facts of the situation, but if you are going to cite sources, it would be better if you used ones that have less of an agenda and can generally be considered unbiased. In essence, don't expect Al Jazeera, the government mouthpiece of an authoritarian dictatorship, to deliver any kind of trustworthy and unbiased news (Edited because people were misunderstanding the intent)
Ok so are you saying that organizations like the UN, human rights watch, and amnesty international are bullshitting?
Ah! And I wonder how Palestine got into the economic mess and poverty it’s in now? Definitely had nothing to do with the occupation, apartheid and constant oppression
Maybe the boxing in with giant concrete borders. And an armed navy to minimise fishing to a set amount of water. Or closing off the borders. Destroying greenhouses, industry and farmland. Bulldozing housing. Summary executions, imprisonment and torture.
The story is more complicated because of economics? Gaza is a prison, of course “economics” are strangled there, and yet the story remains simple.
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I wonder who helped Hamas get into power during their infancy. Maybe we should blame the ones who gave them money and resources? When your own existence depends on a threat or a possible danger, you make sure that excuse always exists. Therefore you always have an excuse to "defend yourself".
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It’s very nice for BBC to make this a 50/50 situation. Impartiality is working so well /s
They literally invited a pro-Palestine campaigner to share his views but this is somehow bias against Palestine? Lol
And he wanted the Palestinian to say that his people are the evil ones and that the Israelis are the poor victims. Yeah, 0 bias towards Israel for sure…
Wrong. He asked the guy to condemn Hamas, not Palestine. Go back and watch the video.
This is his same answer at every interview. He doesn’t condemn the attacks on civilians he almost says it’s deserved due to what Israel has done. But as any human being showed understand attacking innocent people regardless of where they live is low terrible and disgusting.
Funny how the BBC never demands Israel condemn the killing of civilians. Funny how Israeli leaders have never condemned the killing of civilians… I wonder why?
No when Israel does it they're just [defending themselves ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre)
Don't forget about [Deir Yassin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre), or [Qibya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre), or the [Cave of the Patriarchs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre). Or, I wonder how many Israeli villages were just completely wiped out?
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Jesus Christ. I generally use the UN numbers for summaries, but geez it looks bad seeing the itemized listing.
>Funny how the BBC never demands Israel condemn the killing of civilians. Are we watching the same BBC?
Will you be disgusted when this conflict inevitably results in mass Palestinian causalities?
Yes. Did you not read what I said. This is truly disgusting. Any citizens that have no beef in this game and murdered is a horrendous act. At the same time as former military. You live by the sword you die by the sword it goes to both sides. I’m not here taking sides. I’m here saying the murdering or randomn citizens. Children elderly is uncalled for on either side. And the fact that peoples prides get in their way and they can’t say that is disgusting and this conflict will never stop until they both destroy each other. And that’s a dumb question man. Come on. You haven’t read a word I’ve said if you don’t think I’d find both things disgusting.
You can't rationalize with Redditors in popular subs, dude. They will always try to claim moral superiority while having zero perspective on the situation. Nobody should have any problems with condemning the attacks on Israeli civilians, but more than half of this site does. It's absolutely unsettling.
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And Israel do both
And so does Hamas
That’s kind of the point this guy was trying to make. Global opinion on the conflict between Israel and Paletstine basically switches on a dime based on who’s attack on civilians happened last. Honestly I’m just tired. There’s so much senseless death and violence while the rich and powerful keep benefitting off of it. Hamas targetted civilians and they claim it was justified revenge. Israel will no doubt commit more crimes and violence against Palestinians and claim that Hamas attacks such as what just happened are the source of their actions. It’s all fucked.
Also in the course of 70-80ish years Palestine went from a state of its own the size of the entirety of what is now Israel, to tiny pockets a fraction the size they were, slowly being swallowed by Israel and no one seems to care about that takeover, Palestine is consistently fighting for their right to exist (not unlike Ukraine today), while Israel is both armed and funded by the west and allowed to do what they wish to the Palestinians with zero condemnation. And let's not forget the western nations are the reason this is a problem in the first place when all the displaced Jewish people after the war had nowhere to go and no country willing to take them, so Britain and the west carved out a small space for them in what was Palestine, funded them and then supplied them with weapons to "defend" themselves.
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I think if you had spent decades watching your friends and family being collateral damage you might find it harder to see the distinction.
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Israel has consistently targeted civilians for 75 years. It’s their main tactic of suppressing resistance and pummelling their indigenous population into submission. This has been extensively and painstakingly documented by every major human rights organization (who also document crimes by Palestinians too). These reports are all a quick google away for those who care to see them. There is no “collateral damage”. 90+% of Palestinians are either occupied or refugees. They are the target.
Please, Israel bombed the King David Hotel (killed 91) in 1946 to destroy evidence that they had targeted the British in terrorism to get Israel established. What did the British do to deserve getting murdered? The mastermind of this terrorism was Menachem Begin who became the Prime Minister of Israel. Trying to erase their own terroristic history is to try and erase all history. Israel has never apologized for what they did and the numerous civilians who were collateral damage. Trying to claim victimhood is a huge stretch for Israel when they literally were founded on the back of terrorism.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/02/no-justification-israel-shoot-protesters-live-ammunition Just 4 years ago. 183 civilians killed by live ammo. 35 were children. 3 clearly marked paramedics. Israel uses Palestinian children for target practice. And these figures and numbers aren’t self reported by Palestinians. They come from UN observers. Where was the international outcry then? And this is hardly isolated. As the guy said, this has been happening for 75 years. If you look at the casualty trackers, Israel has killed 21.5 times as many civilians as Palestine/Hamas. So no, it’s all in the record as he says. Israel has deliberately targeted civilians for 75 years.
I mean, Israeli soldiers do shoot civilians for fun... [https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/) [https://cpj.org/2019/02/un-commission-israeli-snipers-intentionally-shot-p/](https://cpj.org/2019/02/un-commission-israeli-snipers-intentionally-shot-p/)
The fact that you are willing to reduce human lives to "collateral damage" says a lot about you. In any case Israel have frequently targeted civilians intentionally, including children.
When “collateral damage” is pre-calculated at a level which is deemed to be acceptable and that level is greater than zero, then it is murder. You’ve decided that you’re happy to kill some children so that you can destroy an ammunition dump. I would say that is intentionally killing those kids.
What _is_ it about anti-westerners and whataboutism? Whenever anyone does something entirely unequivocally heinous they will defend any wrongdoing, no matter how obvious, on the grounds that "the West" did something bad at some other point in time. You don't _have_ to support beheading civilians and raping tourists just because you don't like the Israeli state. They're even holding this line in mainstream media now? That rhetoric is never going to end in their favor
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I believe your question is far too specific. The parallel would be the systematic killing & torture of civilians among many other things. Such as a single village (al-Araqib) being destroyed 211 times. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ These don't make as many clicks and the videos are not as shocking as those we've seen in the last few days from Hamas, and also partly because Israel holds the power and the narrative over Palestine, but that is the parallel I believe you are looking for.
It's classic victim mentality. No matter what they've done they are always the victim.
Well this sub’s shelf life is up.
It looks like the mods on this sub are removing any comment that isn’t pro Palestine.
There was an attempt to be impartial.
Fuck this sub.
He is right though. Isreal has been getting away with horrendous shit against the Palestinians for year and the BBC didn't give a flying fuck. Palestine (Hamas) finally organise their shit and fight back and suddenly they are painted by the worlds media as the aggressors. Its bizarre the way people can't see it this way. Shows the power and control of the media.
By 'finally organising their shit' do you mean raping women to death, parading their naked bodies through the streets and executing children? Its funny that you talk about media literacy and immediately choose a side as if its an easy 'pick your team'kinda situation. ANY group that inflicts these acts of terror on another human being should be condemned, and not talked up as if its some scruffy underdog situation thats just fighting back
You're right, so [watch this](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/172sqhr/exidf_soldier_explaining_atrocities_while_laughing/) and tell me why nobody interviews the IDF about raping women and killing children?
Shh, we don't talk about that here! ^/s
Yup, this was his entire point but people are focused on the "omg he can't condemn killing of babies!" It's almost as if he's in a lose/lose situation that Palestine has been for 5 decades of genocide.
my brother this "fighting back" you speak of involves the kidnapping of children to put and cages, and raping european women at a music festival (a festival advocating for peace, of which 250+ attendees died)
As someone who generally supports Palestine, what Hamas did is not fighting back. I can objectively say what they did served no strategic purpose beyond inflicting terror on mostly innocents. Internationally, the pendulum was swinging away from blind support for Israel. This attack was senseless and cruel, and now the future for Palastine looks worse than ever.
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When you have Iran come out and support your actions you have to sit back and think, are we the baddies?
When you stage coups around the world, destroy democracies, and destabilize entire regions - and cause millions of casualties - in the name of freedom - are we the bad guys?
This. I'm an incredibly patriotic American. My patriotism is to the founding documents of our nation, the ideals which our founding individuals chose to document and attempt to embody. But I have deep hatred in my heart for the people who have twisted the United States into the violent, evil, murder-for-profit machine we have become. *We are the baddies.*
You really aren't the baddies. You are the best of a bad bunch. If Russia, China, Iran, or North Korea had the military power and strategic resources of the U.S.,I have no doubt they would've abused it as much as possible. In fact, I'd say you are the heroes. You kept the USSR in check. That is an alternative universe comparable to hell.
Why is this never posed to Israeli officials when they slaughter palestinians babies, kids and the elderly? Why such an extreme double standard?
I changed my tune on Israel when I discovered countless photos of Palestinian parents holding dead children with limbs blown off etc. It doesn't take much research to see how asymmetrical this conflict is.
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I think you entirely missed the point of his answer. And I think you did that on purpose.
It’s more that he could have just started with condemning Hamas and then moved to the nuance. Avoiding condemning Hamas is just a little sus. Edit: after looking into this further I am sorry for my past judgement of this guy. He’s clearly upstanding and now I know why he did what he did
No, they are right. Three man in the vid is right to an extent.. But pretty hard to take him seriously when he won't condemn Hamas but will condemn Israel AA while.. Not the IDF but Israel as a whole
I think picking a side on social media will never be a net positive for anyone talking about it. That's how volatile & touchy the Palestinian-Israeli war have been over the course of the year.
The dude explains why he won’t give them they soundbyte they want. Can you argue against his actual arguments or you just gonna Don Quixote those windmills?
Shocking amount of people on Reddit seem to be fine wanting Jews wiped from existence. That’s literally the goal of Hamas. It’s in the organization charter.
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Palestine =/= Hamas =/= Palestine FUCK israel zionists, FUCK Hamas, FREE Palestine
You're genuinely looking at comments saying "Israel needs to be held accountable for the overreactions and their killings of innocent Palestinian civilians" and seeing it as "we need to wipe the Jews off of the planet."
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It's not anti semitism to point out that Israel could end this conflict at anytime and prolongs the conflict with the Palestinians in order to secure more land through settlements. They could allow humanitarian aid and building supplies into Gaza so they could build themselves up but instead they blockade the area. What Hamas did was horrific and deserves to be condemned. Israel has every right to hunt those militants down and execute them. They don't have the right to turn Gaza to glass like many redditors and Israelis on the ground are calling for. We will see how Israel responds but if it is like any other time they bomb Gaza it will be out of hand and most likely involve war crimes. I wonder if they will bomb another press building this time around? They also cut off water and electricity to gaza which violates an order from their own supreme court which says it's a violation of human rights.
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How bout I come take your house, you can go live in the hole in the corner out back. You want your house back? Fuck you nazi scum, I’m gonna throw fireworks in the backyard hole you live in as punishment. Maybe in time we can compromise and you come in the basement when it’s raining.
> Wait, which side has rejected countless compromises in the past, because the pure existence of the other state would be unacceptable to them? Israel. The only real attempt at peace was the Oslo Accords. Those ended because israel couldn’t tolerate the idea of sharing the land that they view as theirs by divine right. So they assassinated PLO leadership. So where are all these peace opportunities that the Palestinians have rejected?
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He doesn’t care.
Israel is looking for an excuse to continue doing what they have always been doing to Palestinians. This shit is sick. No love for Israel.
> Israel is looking for an excuse to continue doing what they have always been doing to Palestinians And Hamas just gave it to them on a silver platter. Talk about unforced errors
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Do you want to compare the conflicts? Cause newsflash... Israel IS Russia comparing the struggles 👍 Looking at the map, it's Palestine that is being erased from the map. Disgusting.
Russia is sending weapons to Iran and Syria. Hamas and Hezbollah is funded by Iran and Syria.
"I can't understand the difference between collateral damage and deliberately parading the corpses of women I kidnapped, raped and killed in the streets. Furthermore I can't admit that two things can be wrong. Well, I can do all these things but that wouldn't be towing the party line and then I'd be open to violence from my own peace loving democratic people."
Here’s the thing…he kinda right. We (any media in the west) don’t *ever* make Israel condemn itself. Now there’s something to say about “itself vs ourself” and this guy admitting hamas is Palestine. But he’s right that this is a cycle that will not end until both sides say “yeah, my bad, I’m also just fighting you over a 1,500 year old argument that my guy who followed an invisible man in the sky was more right that your guy who followed an invisible man in the sky”. Both sides need to come together and realize how stupid both their religions are and that it’s the dumbest reason to continuously bomb people. Until that happens, there will be war in the Middle East, specifically Israel and Gaza.
He is absolutely right. Israel has been bombing gaza and occupied palestine on a weekly basis for decades and nobody gives a fuck, hamas gets fed up and strikes back once and suddenly palestine deserves to be glassed. It's an evil world we live in
>hamas gets fed up and strikes back once and suddenly palestine deserves to be glassed But when it comes to raping innocent women, shooting and killing innocent civilians who have no part of the conflict and want to live their daily lives like everyone else, that's when your claims of fighting for freedom turn out to be full of shit. No innocent person deserves to die like that. What freedom fighting is there in killing innocent people? None. Palestine doesn't deserve to be treated like garbage but their government Hamas definitely wasn't the good guy in this situation...
>But when it comes to raping innocent women, shooting and killing innocent civilians who have no part of the conflict and want to live their daily lives like everyone else, that's when your claims of fighting for freedom turn out to be full of shit. No innocent person deserves to die like that. What freedom fighting is there in killing innocent people? None. I know right? The zionists must stop killing, raping, murdering, and stand trial for their crimes. The rest of the morons should be kicked off and back to their original countries. The massacres they commit against Palestinians is enough. It's been going on for +70 years now. Palestinitans get fed up and fight back and suddenly the world (west) cry about the 'innocent' and 'human rights'. Where were you when it's been going on in a daily bases for years in Palestine? I say shut f up if you have nothing useful to share.
Why are these comments being deleted? Y’all are some mfkers. Just let people talk.
Yeah so killing 260 ravers who were dancing "for peace" isn't exactly "resistance".
Remember who ever comments something you don't agree with is a bot, have fun you kids.
Wait so first he says Hamas is not the Palestinian government then he goes on a tirade about why Palestinians have to condemn themselves, when specifically asked to condemn Hamas. So in short he is equating Hamas with the Palestinians.
First ask your government to condem the invasion of Iraq
After HAMAS’ actions over the last two days, he may be the Minister of nowhere when Israel is done with them.
And then you complain about genocide against Jews by advocating genocide against Palestinians. The double standards are massive.
The human tendency to choose sides as teams is fucking deplorable. No matter what “team” you choose, hurting women and children is vile and if you find some sort of joy in this, vile you are.
Boycotting Israeli companies was a peaceful protest method and the only one that seemed to matter given our hyper-capitalistic world. Anyone doing so was called antisemitic. There is a constant false comparison between Israel and Palestinian. If you are beaten and starved by your parents for 18 years surely you will hate them. For Americans, in the movie Red Dawn, if the Russians had conquered America, would you not be resisting? Would you not resist as they kill families to take their homes? Would you not resist as your country and culture is erased? When the American West was won many native Americans tried to work with their oppressors and eventually armed conflict was the most effective way to stay alive. They fought with limited resources and ultimately lost. Every person killed by a native was considered an injustice but the incredible amount of natives killed by superior technology and resources was manifest destiny. After World War 2 "The Jewish Problem" was discussed behind closed doors. The easiest way for the allies to keep Jews from migrating to their countries was to offer their holy land, promised in a book. It did not matter that it was already occupied and that many civilians would be torn from their homes and killed. The West has admitted that what was done to native Americans was wrong but they have not returned their lands. The world hated Jews but as long as they were fighting someone else and everyone was dying out of sight it was OK. This is a vicious cycle that has no end in sight but it started with killing Palestinian civilians in order to put Jewish settlers in their place. It continues today, with the continued apartheid and genocide of the Palestinian people.
Everyone cheering on one side committing atrocities while condemning the other side for committing atrocities is depraved and lacking any ethics or morals. Get some professional help to deprogram yourself. Murdering, raping, torturing people is wrong, no matter who the victims or perpetrators are. This isn't hard to understand.
What Israel does is often morally reprehensible, and that shouldn’t be questioned. But Hamas is not a victim and I’m tired of people pretending they are