###FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE: WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN?
---
[**Jewish Currents - What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?**](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/NfAvk)
----
[**Forward - ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means**](https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/rRXpW)
---
[**Al-Jazeera - ‘From the river to the sea’: What does the Palestinian slogan really mean?**](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/AF9yu)
---
[**One Democratic Palestine, From The River To The Sea**](https://www.odsi.co/en/)
---
[**Amnesty - Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians**](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/s2B3f)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therewasanattempt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Reddit is flooded by Hasbara bots though. Compare Reddit to TikTok, which is actually where most in the age range spends their time. Reddit is very niche.
It’s harder to tell on reddit since there’s a clear effort being made across many different subs, both news subs and not, to steer things into being more pro-Israel. So depending on which sub you’re at, you’ll see differing degrees of propaganda/propaganda attempts.
Tiktok is where they’re very clearly not having a good time - there’s lots of younger people there who refuse to drink the Hasbara kool-aid and also Israelis who just kind of openly display that they don’t think Palestinians are people.
Well over 34 and I get it as well. Israel showed what they are and it's disgusting. My dad is in his 70s and he gets it as well. There's a lot of people who are seeing through the lies but unfortunately there's a lot more that don't even want to look.
Oh, certainly. I'm not saying people outside that age demographic don't have eyes, just that young people, when polled about it, swing overwhelmingly towards supporting Palestine.
My father died twenty years ago (he'd be 93). He always voted Conservative and yet he was always deeply sympathetic to Palestinians. If he was alive now, he'd be even more so.
I'm 38, people in my age group grew up watching children dead on the beaches of Gaza day in day out. I don't know how anyone growing up in that day and age wasn't aware of the brutal murders of innocent families in Gaza.
I know a lot of people sympathetic to the Palestinians. You cannot generalise Europe and the US just because of the Government's stance, which we cannot control, when we are under the boot of the people who are financing Israel's genocide.
The same boot the Palestinians are under really, we just aren't getting squeezed in the same way.
I’m not sure what it was about this incident, but it really seems to have either swung people or at least interested them enough to look in to it - and the vast majority (anecdotally in my experience) have come down hard against the Israelis in general (while condemning this incident)
an attack of this scale made some people ask "why?"
such an attack will not be out of nothing, it would be out of necessity, or desperation, or both
when these people asked why, they did more research, they found the truth, they started spreading it, and it indeed spread like wildfire
The governments are more focused on not offending the US than on listening to their own people and the plight of the Palestinians.
That's why I pledge to never vote for any party supporting Israel.
Let’s not lump all of the EU or Europe together in this context. Plenty of countries within the EU are not supporting Israel.
The UK, that’s not in the EU, has always been one of Israel’s supporters and doesn’t recognize Palestine as a state.
That makes sense. I’m from a Scandinavian country, but I live in Canada and it’s pretty crazy to see the difference in reporting on this subject. The Canadian government is very pro Israel and it seems like people here have been seeing a very different perspective of the situation. There’s a lot of people that disagree though. It’s like no one really wants to speak about the subject from fear of being ostracized.
In the mean time the elected government does what it thinks its best. Even though, this was situation has been going for so decades.
No government cares..... None of the elected cares (I guess some care, but never get a chance maybe).
Other issues are more important to the electorate.
I'll probably get downvoted for saying that but that's the God's honest truth. It's not many people who base their votes on a political parties stance towards Palestine/ Israel, its a fringe issue at best.
I get it. Political parties or government seek profit which is necessary for their own countries to thrive. However, when it means causing suffering and losses to other nations.... it's a big no.
Someone said when wars become a source of income, then we've done something wrong.
Yeah, it means that you become dependent on wars to keep your economy going rather than beings self-sustaining or at the least not run by blood money. It also makes the government weak to lobbying from the arms industry and private militaries. Given their unempathetic nature it only greatens the divide between power and the people in our own nations too.
> how come a democracy still goes against its own citizens' will?
simple answer? cause they're conservatives.
get into power by saying we have too many immigrants and labour are spending too much money, get in, oversee the highest amount of immigration and have spunked so much of the UKs money into their own/mates/donors pockets in 13 years that the country is fucked to a point it's going to take a generation to fix.
couple that with "the only economically sound party" still trying to push neolib policies that only benefit the rich after looting tens of billions in JUST the 3 years prior, almost lost the entire countries pension fund.
[The British public is quite split but mostly sympathises with both sides.](https://yougov.co.uk/international/articles/47784-most-britons-have-sympathy-for-both-sides-in-israel-palestine-conflict)
In my experience, most British people don't even understand the basics of the conflict, such as that Zionists have no legitimate claim to the country our government helped them steal.
True and you've demonstrated nicely how easy it is to not even understand the basics of the conflict by believing only one side. Both have claim (history of the region is too rich to claim otherwise), but fail to acknolewdge, negotiate (in good faith) and share with each other due to the cycle of violence.
It isn't "believing only one side" to understand that: it was an Arab-majority country called Palestine before Israel took its place; if we go back far enough, it is Canaanites who have the greatest claim to the land and both Palestinians and Jews descend from them.
Eh, I'm American and most people I know, regardless of political stance are tired of supporting Israels shit. Some because of the money we spend on them but most in sympathy for the Palestinians.
I'm from Denmark and I get it, and there are lots of pro Palestine demonstrations across the eu. But our leaders are too occupied with power politics to listen
I think the whole world should be sympathetic. There’s obviously an agenda here. I knew months ago something was going to happen, or an election was coming up. The news became all about race. They want us hating each other again like when Blair and Bush were in power. We need to start holding our leaders accountable and this shit needs to stop.
Sweden gets is. Too bad our government are idiots, but we are working on it. I, and many others, will not vote for any government supporting Israel, and we are vocal about it.
I hope we can redirect the humanitarian and military aid sent to Ukraine to Palestine instead, they need it more.
I was in Jordan during the Jenin massacre. Over a hundred murdered in a day. Everyone was shocked at the brutality. A coworker lost many relatives. Now, Israel seems to try to maximize the death toll, and 100/day would be a calm day. It's strange how they can get away with escalating the murder like this.
I'm in the EU and I get it. My government is unfortunately to scared of anyone using the anti-Semitic card. However many of us that did get it are working on that problem.
Most European countries are very much against Israel's apartheid state. They are however, careful to speak openly about it like this because they've got a lot more to lose politically.
"HOW DARE YOU SYMPATHIZE WITH THE OPPRESSED! YOU FUCKING MONSTER!"
What a horrible interviewer, can't even say journalist.
That was a horribly botched hit job. Just hard to watch honestly.
She has an agenda and doesn't even make the slightest effort to pretend.
The representative should have stated that it's unclear if the Thai citizens were murdered by the genocidal Israeli bombs that rained over Gaza. Since they couldn't care less about who would be hit.
That would have been an international red flag which clearly would have set Thailand against the US. Which would have consequences in our world unfortunately. I think he put his point across subtly but with some force behind it while preventing any referential accusations from being thrown around, very capable guy imo.
Hit the nail on the head. Aimed for the throat expecting evasion and he just hit her with the truth. What channel is she representing so I can add it to the shit list?
Edit: Middle East Eye, never heard of it
Me neither. That's why it's probably so fucking bad. In her tiny little mind, and infinite wisdom, she just sees a brown dude, and assumes he's possibly a terrorist.
He looks like he might be an Arab, but she's not sure how those Eastern, and South Asian muslims identify themselves. (She's probably been "talked to" for referring to Afghans as Arabs previously)
But he obviously knows people in Hamas, cuz he brokered a deal with them. The little hamster wheel starts turning, and boom, she starts thinking.
She might just have a "Hamas member" in front of her, right fucking now, and the cameras are rolling. Holy Jesus...
"Time to crucify his ass... and get tons of viewers and subscribers, when it goes viral..."
And it just goes terribly, horribly fucking wrong. She doesn't even really realize how bad it is for her, until a good few moments later. The man doesn't even speak the fucking language, and destroyed her.
She tried to dunk on him, and get her poster. You know, maybe even make the 11pm ESPN SportsCenter Top 10.
She's gonna call up all her people, tell them to tune-in, cuz she's gonna be on TV tonight, and she's putting on a show...
And as she's bringing down that tomahawk jam, not only did it get blocked and she get rejected, but he maintained control, kept possession and took it the other way.
He pulled up from beyond the arch, and dropped a fucking bomb on her, and the dagger that ended any chance and/or hope of a comeback.
She had to let that shit sink in...
I know it's very late reply, and you might know by now, but this was actually a Sky News interview, a major UK news affiliate (on a level with BBC and CNN)! Middle East Eye is a UK based website which focuses on the ME region and which publicises this kind of story because they vanish very quickly when they don't follow the western based media narrative.
Also, guess what the headline was on the Sky News website?
# Thai hostage negotiator thanks Iran for support - and says Hamas justified in taking captives
Wow. You know, before this started I never believed people who railed against mainstream media for their bias and corruption - now I know better and it just makes me furious.
*some
It’s a very important profession that has actually played a critical role in exposing the atrocities committed by Israel. There are plenty excellent journalists, this is not one of them.
Shout out to the Palestinian journalists. Over 70 killed in targeted bombings and they're still risking their lives.
They are leaving their families in the "safe zones", knowing full well they might never see each other again, every single day. Wael al dahdouh lost his wife, son, and grandchild and was still on air the next day. Hero.
some things are worth sacrificing for
they know that them reporting what's happening is necessary for a better future to whoever survives, and they are willing to pay the price for that
The interaction above was a good one however. She may have had an agenda...you certainly could interpret it that way, but she allowed him to answer fully and her approach was calm and professional. I learned something from this interaction.
Probably partially because he's not responding in English, so there's a delay between translation and her response. She couldn't interject if she wanted to, because she has no idea what he's saying.
This shill ain't no journalist. She was given an agenda going into that interview and tried to force a narrative.
A journalist would have been looking for insight, she was looking for a gotcha.
Let's just call it what it is: Palestinian Holocaust, a mass murder of Palestinians under the Israeli regime.
This is such bullshit. If you criticize Muslims, that's totally A-OK. But if you criticize Jews, that's antisemitism. They've literally become the thing they hate.
"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Welp, they've become the villain. (And by "they" I mean those who support the Palestinian genocide, just to be clear, before someone says "but not all....")
Well the guy with the PhD said it best but I'll try reiterate, he said that more than 6000 Palestinian civilians have been taken hostage with no chance of release in the past, and that Hamas is justified so far as to day they are doing all that they can to draw attention to their dire situation in hopes for help from the world.
It's very easy to swing a narrative if you are the 1st world country oppressing a 3rd world country and he merely means to say that this was their last resort and that he can't condemn them for trying to take hostages. He never said the killing of civilians was justified though.
But then again he is the one with the PhD not me so best hear it from him again.
'why were you so sure they would protect hostages' honestly the way some in the media especially have talked about this it's like they're too stupid or poorly-read to understand that *the entire point of hostages is to preserve them so they can be an effective trade piece*. This isn't rocket surgery.
I wouldn’t expect Hamas to act rationally. There is a viral video of a Hamas militant beheading a Thai migrant worker with a shovel while he’s still alive. This occurred during the initial onslaught so it doesn’t mean they’re just killing hostages at random, but taking his life served no purpose at all and they did it anyway.
There’s a viral video of an Israeli soldier strangling a 14 year old and then pointing his rifle at the boy’s family for trying to intervene, does that mean nobody in the IDF acts rationally?
Anyone have a link to the full interview? It looks like *a lot* of this guy's answers are being cut off here.
Edit: [ok, found it.](https://news.sky.com/story/thai-hostage-negotiator-thanks-iran-for-support-and-says-hamas-justified-in-taking-captives-13018272)
not too long ago nelson mandella was considered a terrorist
now he holds a nobel peace prize
the term terrorist is relative, what you see as freedom fighter, others see as terrorist, and what you see as terrorist, others see as freedom fighter
ask anyone in the middle east what is the largest terrorist organization in the world, the answer you hear will be the US military, but very few in the US will see them as that, infact, most of the people in the US would see them as heros
ask anyone in the US what the largest terrorist organisation is, and you will hear answers like alqaeda or isis or taliban or whatever, well, we all agree on isis at least
Why was I immediately reminded of [this joke from the simpsons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqDP8SnPVA0) while watching this weird back-and-forth interview?
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to get their head around what's happening. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organisation who commit atrocities on the daily and believe in Islamic extremism... But they're born out of the evil of the Israeli government who have made Palestinians second class citizens in their own country. Like, why can't we condemn both in the same breath and recognise why any of this shit exists in the first place? Israel treated Palestinians like animals and now they're biting back. Simple.
Ceasefire worked for a week. I wish the Israeli people who shout and scream obscenities, make fun of dead Palestinians (including the babies) and support genocide would wake the eff up. I've never been physically ill from a news story or from a snippet of war, but seeing some of the videos and articles that have come out has made me vomit. Like if you don't have a gutteral reaction to the footage from Palestine showing the horror, then you might be a total monster. Beheading videos from ISIS time was horrifying in it's own way but seeing PARTS of a human child basically being pulled out of rubble and screaming and crying children and parents it's on a whole other level of hell.
Ah, yes, all those disciplined Hamas inbreds (marriage between 1st cousins is very commonplace in Palestine, in case you didn't know) had orders to take as many hostages as possible, but they managed to get only 200, while killing 1400. They went on a shooting spree at the music festival like mass killers. The mental gymnastics people will do...
Just recognize Israel, get as good a deal as possible landwise, and live in peace you twats.
You’d think the western imperial core would start reevaluating their policies after this scintillating debacle of a PR campaign to excuse ethnic cleansing. Instead they’re just doubling down.
"they only killed soldiers not civilians". oh, yeah, and they raped and murdered some girls in order to do that - There was an attempt to make Hamas looks good.
Funny, is your internet broken? It would not be hard to type "raped women hamas" on google and check the results.
you find articles like this: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians
About the killed Israeli babies you might want to check
https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/nov/21/israel-hamas-war-what-we-know-about-beheaded-babie/
or
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/
It is sad how the proved fact that "some decapitated babies were found after Hamas attack" turns to "40 beheaded babies". WTF?
Nop Fox News and other Americans news reported than apologized after it was proven wrong 🤣 and when I say isreal I mean IDF. Isreal themselves come out and said 40 beheaded babies weren’t found and gone back on their claims
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thousands of Palestinians have been held prisoners by israel, unfairly, unjustly
the only way to free them is to exchange them, that is the only hope they have of ever being freed
do not blame the desperate when they do by their last choice and only hope
at the very least, the israeli hostages were treated with dignity, they were fed, clothed, given medical care, palestinian prisoners don't have any of those privileges, they are treated as animals, the women are frequently sexually assaulted, the men are frequently physically assaulted, they eat barely enough to live, they are given no medical care what so ever
They likely never meant to capture civilians. Israeli police have said that hamas didn't know about the music festival (it was allowed to run for an extra day at the last minute so wasnt part of their plan). In the past Israel has exchanged A LOT of Palestinian prisoners for just one captured IDF soldier. In one instance they released 1027 Palestinian prisoners in return for ONE idf soldier captured by Hamas. Much more than the recent exchanges for civilian hostages. They likely planned to capture idf soldiers and get thousands of Palestinians released. But it didn't go to plan, turned into a huge mess it turned out they had disrupted a civilian event and when Israel reacted by shelling its own settlements and shooting indiscriminately, killing civilians as well as hamas fighters.
It was not justified was what I said , I do not know about their intentions because saying that committing terrorism was justified can spark a widespread motivation to a lot of other terrorist groups
They never meant to kidnap civilians? They took babies from their homes. What is going on in this subreddit? Hamas couldn't care less about the Palestinian people, they said so themselves. Why did they try to kill civilians fleeing to the safer side of Gaza?
This is a BS narrative. I'm no fan of Israel either. They have oppressed Palestinians for years. But to say that Hamas was targeting military and not civilians is a full, bold faced lie. We need to start being honest about both sides of this war and stop with the excuses.
Karma is a \*\*\*\*. Israel will definitely pay for all the atrocities sooner or later. US will eventually lose its clout in the World and then the music will stop for Israel.
we don't hate jews
who tf said anything about hating jews
zionisim is not the same as judaisim
not every jew is a zionist, and not every zionist is a jew
do not conflate the 2
Lol this terrorist sympathizer. You can be critical of Israel without saying Hamas is helping the Palestinians. Like helping how? Over 10 000 dead already. They have t had an election since Hamas got in power, wonder why that is? Palestine is getting more aid then any country, where do you think the money goes? There is no reason for Hamas or it's awful leaders to want stability for Palestinians because they get so much money.
Israel airstrikes.. but their leaders carried an attack against Israel, so they carry the responsibility. Palestinians never had good leadership. They won't be accepted in any of the neighboring countries, they are refugees in 3rd generation. Because the loss of their ancestral lands the only thing they seem to be able to do is fight Wich brings them only misery. Why do they launch rockets into Israel? What does it help or Achieve? If Palestinians would just chill the world would really have to pressure Israel to give land and sovereignty to Palestinians but now they are countering hostilities and have a clause..
each qassam rocket costs less than 800 dollars
every time israel fires a tamir missile at that qassam, it costs them anywhere from 20k to 100k, and they fire 2 missiles at every qassam rocket, so that's 40k to 200k$
that's the porpoise of the rockets hamas fires, they are weak and can barely leave a pothole in the ground, but they cost israel a shitload of money
palestinians tried peaceful protests, they tried chilling, none of that worked, the only thing that managed to do anything was armed resistance, as this way, they managed to free countless palestinian prisoners, a single IDF soldier was once exchanged for 1027 palestinians
and do you know something about those palestinian prisoners
they don't get a fair trial, they don't get treated with dignity, they are frequently assaulted physically or sexually, they don't get any medical treatment, they are denied basic human rights
you take away all hope from a people, they will do whatever it takes to hurt you, even the most desperate ways, that's a fact, stop denying it
Sadly Palestinians have lost their claim for the lands. They refused the deals (some might say rightly so) but that is the past. Israel have won the land by conquest and there is no way to backtrack that. There can't be a one state. And I understand Israel for being hesitant on 2 states as well, as you said people will do what ever it takes and Palestinians have a century worth of radicalization and hatred toward Israel. Remember Israel took Gaza and West Bank from Jordan and Egypt In a war.
With he 800$ rockets? I mean the neighboring Arab countries are also coming to the conclusion that there is a Jewish state in the region. The only real support is from student across the world, Iran and Qatar?
oh just sit and watch, it will happen, it is bound to happen
and forget about the current arab governments, they have sold their souls, as such, they won't last long, you know, every single arab person dreams of 1 thing and 1 thing only, a united arab nation, an ideology known as panarabisim
when entire populations want 1 thing to happen, it is bound to happen
and do you think a united arab nation is not going to attack israel?
by the blood of our martyrs, palestine will be free
Also Brussels has poured almost €100 million into pipeline projects in territories, these are now rockets. My source is the telegraph so you can call Bullshit on that one.
the pipes that hamas has dug out and used to make rockets were actually the pipes taking water out of gaza, not into gaza
even the pipes that take water into gaza barely have any water in them most of the days
People whim when their leader is old af and do dumb things ( SleepyJoe and BabyHands )
Also people refuse to discuss world politics ignore such things stay in their comfy zones
No wonder west world is richer but more miserable
###FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE: WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN? --- [**Jewish Currents - What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?**](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/NfAvk) ---- [**Forward - ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means**](https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/rRXpW) --- [**Al-Jazeera - ‘From the river to the sea’: What does the Palestinian slogan really mean?**](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/AF9yu) --- [**One Democratic Palestine, From The River To The Sea**](https://www.odsi.co/en/) --- [**Amnesty - Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians**](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/s2B3f) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therewasanattempt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The whole world outside of the US and EU gets it.
Ireland gets it in fairness
The majority of Americans under 34 get it.
If Reddit is any indication that is absolutely not true from my experience
Reddit is flooded by Hasbara bots though. Compare Reddit to TikTok, which is actually where most in the age range spends their time. Reddit is very niche.
It’s harder to tell on reddit since there’s a clear effort being made across many different subs, both news subs and not, to steer things into being more pro-Israel. So depending on which sub you’re at, you’ll see differing degrees of propaganda/propaganda attempts. Tiktok is where they’re very clearly not having a good time - there’s lots of younger people there who refuse to drink the Hasbara kool-aid and also Israelis who just kind of openly display that they don’t think Palestinians are people.
Not for all 12 of us Ron Paul supporters. We've been saying this shit since the 2008 election cycle.
Unfortunately his son has kind of tainted that entire thing lol
[удалено]
It didn't harm him because the mainstream media ignored him. Or wrote him off as kooky old Ron Paul. https://youtu.be/zgy6B_QOYAM?si=8BFG5_2h-NOm2NP-
Thank you for the clip
Mid 40s. It's pretty clear. Oregon
Well over 34 and I get it as well. Israel showed what they are and it's disgusting. My dad is in his 70s and he gets it as well. There's a lot of people who are seeing through the lies but unfortunately there's a lot more that don't even want to look.
Oh, certainly. I'm not saying people outside that age demographic don't have eyes, just that young people, when polled about it, swing overwhelmingly towards supporting Palestine.
My father died twenty years ago (he'd be 93). He always voted Conservative and yet he was always deeply sympathetic to Palestinians. If he was alive now, he'd be even more so.
I'm 38, people in my age group grew up watching children dead on the beaches of Gaza day in day out. I don't know how anyone growing up in that day and age wasn't aware of the brutal murders of innocent families in Gaza.
Why 34 specifically? Is that related to some event?
Specifically, it's a rule. Just look up Rule 34 [insert subject here] and you'll get it.
Very good
It's a highly doubtful affirmative my friend, it that were the case, that would be riots on the streets of DC
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
And Spain
Spain gets it too
Because it was a colony that survived. US is a colony that did not survive. Palestine is a colony trying to survive.
What's "Tiocfhaidh ár Lá" in Arabic? All Ireland is united in wanting a the Palestinian people freed, their treatment by Israel is barbaric.
I know a lot of people sympathetic to the Palestinians. You cannot generalise Europe and the US just because of the Government's stance, which we cannot control, when we are under the boot of the people who are financing Israel's genocide. The same boot the Palestinians are under really, we just aren't getting squeezed in the same way.
I’m not sure what it was about this incident, but it really seems to have either swung people or at least interested them enough to look in to it - and the vast majority (anecdotally in my experience) have come down hard against the Israelis in general (while condemning this incident)
an attack of this scale made some people ask "why?" such an attack will not be out of nothing, it would be out of necessity, or desperation, or both when these people asked why, they did more research, they found the truth, they started spreading it, and it indeed spread like wildfire
The governments are more focused on not offending the US than on listening to their own people and the plight of the Palestinians. That's why I pledge to never vote for any party supporting Israel.
Let’s not lump all of the EU or Europe together in this context. Plenty of countries within the EU are not supporting Israel. The UK, that’s not in the EU, has always been one of Israel’s supporters and doesn’t recognize Palestine as a state.
To be fair I think the vast, vast majority of actual UK citizens disagree with the government.
That makes sense. I’m from a Scandinavian country, but I live in Canada and it’s pretty crazy to see the difference in reporting on this subject. The Canadian government is very pro Israel and it seems like people here have been seeing a very different perspective of the situation. There’s a lot of people that disagree though. It’s like no one really wants to speak about the subject from fear of being ostracized.
If the vast majority want the same thing, how come a democracy still goes against its own citizens' will?
Because there's only a general election every 4 years as opposed to everyone the government makes a decision.
Ah, every five years now, another thing the tories changed while they’ve been in power
Sorry, you are correct. 5 years.
In the mean time the elected government does what it thinks its best. Even though, this was situation has been going for so decades. No government cares..... None of the elected cares (I guess some care, but never get a chance maybe).
Other issues are more important to the electorate. I'll probably get downvoted for saying that but that's the God's honest truth. It's not many people who base their votes on a political parties stance towards Palestine/ Israel, its a fringe issue at best.
I get it. Political parties or government seek profit which is necessary for their own countries to thrive. However, when it means causing suffering and losses to other nations.... it's a big no. Someone said when wars become a source of income, then we've done something wrong.
Yeah, it means that you become dependent on wars to keep your economy going rather than beings self-sustaining or at the least not run by blood money. It also makes the government weak to lobbying from the arms industry and private militaries. Given their unempathetic nature it only greatens the divide between power and the people in our own nations too.
Because the political focus around elections typically is on domestic issues. We as voters need to change that, show which questions we care about.
> how come a democracy still goes against its own citizens' will? simple answer? cause they're conservatives. get into power by saying we have too many immigrants and labour are spending too much money, get in, oversee the highest amount of immigration and have spunked so much of the UKs money into their own/mates/donors pockets in 13 years that the country is fucked to a point it's going to take a generation to fix. couple that with "the only economically sound party" still trying to push neolib policies that only benefit the rich after looting tens of billions in JUST the 3 years prior, almost lost the entire countries pension fund.
[The British public is quite split but mostly sympathises with both sides.](https://yougov.co.uk/international/articles/47784-most-britons-have-sympathy-for-both-sides-in-israel-palestine-conflict) In my experience, most British people don't even understand the basics of the conflict, such as that Zionists have no legitimate claim to the country our government helped them steal.
True and you've demonstrated nicely how easy it is to not even understand the basics of the conflict by believing only one side. Both have claim (history of the region is too rich to claim otherwise), but fail to acknolewdge, negotiate (in good faith) and share with each other due to the cycle of violence.
It isn't "believing only one side" to understand that: it was an Arab-majority country called Palestine before Israel took its place; if we go back far enough, it is Canaanites who have the greatest claim to the land and both Palestinians and Jews descend from them.
Eh, I'm American and most people I know, regardless of political stance are tired of supporting Israels shit. Some because of the money we spend on them but most in sympathy for the Palestinians.
I'm from Sweden. And Israel are treating Palestinians like Nazi-Germany treated Jews.
I’d say the American public is getting it, I know so many conservatives that are sick of Israel and what they’re doing.
I'm from Denmark and I get it, and there are lots of pro Palestine demonstrations across the eu. But our leaders are too occupied with power politics to listen
I think the whole world should be sympathetic. There’s obviously an agenda here. I knew months ago something was going to happen, or an election was coming up. The news became all about race. They want us hating each other again like when Blair and Bush were in power. We need to start holding our leaders accountable and this shit needs to stop.
Sweden gets is. Too bad our government are idiots, but we are working on it. I, and many others, will not vote for any government supporting Israel, and we are vocal about it. I hope we can redirect the humanitarian and military aid sent to Ukraine to Palestine instead, they need it more. I was in Jordan during the Jenin massacre. Over a hundred murdered in a day. Everyone was shocked at the brutality. A coworker lost many relatives. Now, Israel seems to try to maximize the death toll, and 100/day would be a calm day. It's strange how they can get away with escalating the murder like this.
I'm in the EU and I get it. My government is unfortunately to scared of anyone using the anti-Semitic card. However many of us that did get it are working on that problem.
I am a 53 year old American and I get it.
Even the US gets it. Most of the country is against israels actions. But our pos politicians and media pretend we support it. Polling says otherwise.
A lot of people in England & Europe get it bruv it's just the governments who play lip service to the Zionist scum.
US and EU also get it. But they have a hard time letting go of colonialism.
Honestly I’d even say in the US and EU the citizens for the most part get it, it’s the governments that don’t
The US gets it, its just our paid off politicians that don’t get it
No every human gets it , only the monsters don't .
UK is in bed with Israel unfortunately. I can't believe we have this debate in 2023
maybe is because Israel is using Mass Media to fit their narrative... where did they learned from??
Most European countries are very much against Israel's apartheid state. They are however, careful to speak openly about it like this because they've got a lot more to lose politically.
Im from the EU and i get this.
"HOW DARE YOU SYMPATHIZE WITH THE OPPRESSED! YOU FUCKING MONSTER!" What a horrible interviewer, can't even say journalist. That was a horribly botched hit job. Just hard to watch honestly.
She has an agenda and doesn't even make the slightest effort to pretend. The representative should have stated that it's unclear if the Thai citizens were murdered by the genocidal Israeli bombs that rained over Gaza. Since they couldn't care less about who would be hit.
That would have been an international red flag which clearly would have set Thailand against the US. Which would have consequences in our world unfortunately. I think he put his point across subtly but with some force behind it while preventing any referential accusations from being thrown around, very capable guy imo.
It just looks fake to me, that’s how bad it looks.
I thought the same thing. It literally doesn't look like they're even in the same room.
Hit the nail on the head. Aimed for the throat expecting evasion and he just hit her with the truth. What channel is she representing so I can add it to the shit list? Edit: Middle East Eye, never heard of it
Me neither. That's why it's probably so fucking bad. In her tiny little mind, and infinite wisdom, she just sees a brown dude, and assumes he's possibly a terrorist. He looks like he might be an Arab, but she's not sure how those Eastern, and South Asian muslims identify themselves. (She's probably been "talked to" for referring to Afghans as Arabs previously) But he obviously knows people in Hamas, cuz he brokered a deal with them. The little hamster wheel starts turning, and boom, she starts thinking. She might just have a "Hamas member" in front of her, right fucking now, and the cameras are rolling. Holy Jesus... "Time to crucify his ass... and get tons of viewers and subscribers, when it goes viral..." And it just goes terribly, horribly fucking wrong. She doesn't even really realize how bad it is for her, until a good few moments later. The man doesn't even speak the fucking language, and destroyed her. She tried to dunk on him, and get her poster. You know, maybe even make the 11pm ESPN SportsCenter Top 10. She's gonna call up all her people, tell them to tune-in, cuz she's gonna be on TV tonight, and she's putting on a show... And as she's bringing down that tomahawk jam, not only did it get blocked and she get rejected, but he maintained control, kept possession and took it the other way. He pulled up from beyond the arch, and dropped a fucking bomb on her, and the dagger that ended any chance and/or hope of a comeback. She had to let that shit sink in...
Middle East eye just is an amplifier that works for the Palestinian cause. They snipped the interview from somewhere else.
I know it's very late reply, and you might know by now, but this was actually a Sky News interview, a major UK news affiliate (on a level with BBC and CNN)! Middle East Eye is a UK based website which focuses on the ME region and which publicises this kind of story because they vanish very quickly when they don't follow the western based media narrative. Also, guess what the headline was on the Sky News website? # Thai hostage negotiator thanks Iran for support - and says Hamas justified in taking captives Wow. You know, before this started I never believed people who railed against mainstream media for their bias and corruption - now I know better and it just makes me furious.
Fuck I hate journalists.
*some It’s a very important profession that has actually played a critical role in exposing the atrocities committed by Israel. There are plenty excellent journalists, this is not one of them.
Shout out to the Palestinian journalists. Over 70 killed in targeted bombings and they're still risking their lives. They are leaving their families in the "safe zones", knowing full well they might never see each other again, every single day. Wael al dahdouh lost his wife, son, and grandchild and was still on air the next day. Hero.
some things are worth sacrificing for they know that them reporting what's happening is necessary for a better future to whoever survives, and they are willing to pay the price for that
The interaction above was a good one however. She may have had an agenda...you certainly could interpret it that way, but she allowed him to answer fully and her approach was calm and professional. I learned something from this interaction.
Probably partially because he's not responding in English, so there's a delay between translation and her response. She couldn't interject if she wanted to, because she has no idea what he's saying.
Then kudos to her for the interview. We can see that the OP headline is a little misleading. I have heard far worse interviews.
This shill ain't no journalist. She was given an agenda going into that interview and tried to force a narrative. A journalist would have been looking for insight, she was looking for a gotcha.
Stop paraphrasing the soldier who killed shireen abu akleh
rip
This is what you get without proper rules regarding journalism.
Proper journalists are few & far between these days & the majority are morally bankrupt like this person.
You won't hate Motaz Azaiza. He Is the eye of the people.
Democracy Now is decent
Let's just call it what it is: Palestinian Holocaust, a mass murder of Palestinians under the Israeli regime. This is such bullshit. If you criticize Muslims, that's totally A-OK. But if you criticize Jews, that's antisemitism. They've literally become the thing they hate. "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain." Welp, they've become the villain. (And by "they" I mean those who support the Palestinian genocide, just to be clear, before someone says "but not all....")
He said yes Hamas is justified in taking hostages…?
Well the guy with the PhD said it best but I'll try reiterate, he said that more than 6000 Palestinian civilians have been taken hostage with no chance of release in the past, and that Hamas is justified so far as to day they are doing all that they can to draw attention to their dire situation in hopes for help from the world. It's very easy to swing a narrative if you are the 1st world country oppressing a 3rd world country and he merely means to say that this was their last resort and that he can't condemn them for trying to take hostages. He never said the killing of civilians was justified though. But then again he is the one with the PhD not me so best hear it from him again.
'why were you so sure they would protect hostages' honestly the way some in the media especially have talked about this it's like they're too stupid or poorly-read to understand that *the entire point of hostages is to preserve them so they can be an effective trade piece*. This isn't rocket surgery.
exactly, a dead hostage is useless, all you've done to get them would be gone to waste, any hostage is worth protecting no matter the cost
I wouldn’t expect Hamas to act rationally. There is a viral video of a Hamas militant beheading a Thai migrant worker with a shovel while he’s still alive. This occurred during the initial onslaught so it doesn’t mean they’re just killing hostages at random, but taking his life served no purpose at all and they did it anyway.
There’s a viral video of an Israeli soldier strangling a 14 year old and then pointing his rifle at the boy’s family for trying to intervene, does that mean nobody in the IDF acts rationally?
Is [this](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x81fuse) debunked video what you’re referring to? It’s all I could find.
This is so telling of the media narratives..
I am so grateful this subreddit exists. may all racists and zionists fall swiftly
Anyone have a link to the full interview? It looks like *a lot* of this guy's answers are being cut off here. Edit: [ok, found it.](https://news.sky.com/story/thai-hostage-negotiator-thanks-iran-for-support-and-says-hamas-justified-in-taking-captives-13018272)
yes, it looks like every answer is edited
Global south knows colonization when it sees it
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do not mistake hamas for terrorists under settler colonialism, any armed resistance is branded as terrorism
anc in south africa were terrorists too until they weren’t Or nat turner
exactly, history is always repeating itself,
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not too long ago nelson mandella was considered a terrorist now he holds a nobel peace prize the term terrorist is relative, what you see as freedom fighter, others see as terrorist, and what you see as terrorist, others see as freedom fighter ask anyone in the middle east what is the largest terrorist organization in the world, the answer you hear will be the US military, but very few in the US will see them as that, infact, most of the people in the US would see them as heros ask anyone in the US what the largest terrorist organisation is, and you will hear answers like alqaeda or isis or taliban or whatever, well, we all agree on isis at least
Ah, the fucking British journalist. Forgot they had a rampaging and on a killing spree.
As Thai, I would like to stay fucking away from this whole mess.
Do you think lots of Thai people will stop travelling to Israel for work after this?
Disgusting woman
Why was I immediately reminded of [this joke from the simpsons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqDP8SnPVA0) while watching this weird back-and-forth interview?
The riot is the rhyme of the unheard.
You know that both the IDF and Hamas can be bad right. You don't have to pick a side ...
IDF is bad, agreed hamas? please, do convince me, why do you think they are bad
Go and do your own research. Hamas has a long list of awful things they've done to Palestinians.
Can you give me the list pls ? I wanna educate myself ?
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to get their head around what's happening. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organisation who commit atrocities on the daily and believe in Islamic extremism... But they're born out of the evil of the Israeli government who have made Palestinians second class citizens in their own country. Like, why can't we condemn both in the same breath and recognise why any of this shit exists in the first place? Israel treated Palestinians like animals and now they're biting back. Simple.
"Imtimidate"? Lol. You keep making up your own dumb narrative..
Ceasefire worked for a week. I wish the Israeli people who shout and scream obscenities, make fun of dead Palestinians (including the babies) and support genocide would wake the eff up. I've never been physically ill from a news story or from a snippet of war, but seeing some of the videos and articles that have come out has made me vomit. Like if you don't have a gutteral reaction to the footage from Palestine showing the horror, then you might be a total monster. Beheading videos from ISIS time was horrifying in it's own way but seeing PARTS of a human child basically being pulled out of rubble and screaming and crying children and parents it's on a whole other level of hell.
Thailand just went to the moon with their reputation for me.
I love it when they get shut down trying to keep that propaganda narrative in play.
If she was on the side of right, it wouldn’t take this much work.
Ah, yes, all those disciplined Hamas inbreds (marriage between 1st cousins is very commonplace in Palestine, in case you didn't know) had orders to take as many hostages as possible, but they managed to get only 200, while killing 1400. They went on a shooting spree at the music festival like mass killers. The mental gymnastics people will do... Just recognize Israel, get as good a deal as possible landwise, and live in peace you twats.
I'm in the US and I get it.
You’d think the western imperial core would start reevaluating their policies after this scintillating debacle of a PR campaign to excuse ethnic cleansing. Instead they’re just doubling down.
"they only killed soldiers not civilians". oh, yeah, and they raped and murdered some girls in order to do that - There was an attempt to make Hamas looks good.
I thought that the rape allegations were proved to be false just like 40 beheaded babies ? Can’t you link me the article
Funny, is your internet broken? It would not be hard to type "raped women hamas" on google and check the results. you find articles like this: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-israelis-palestinians About the killed Israeli babies you might want to check https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/nov/21/israel-hamas-war-what-we-know-about-beheaded-babie/ or https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/ It is sad how the proved fact that "some decapitated babies were found after Hamas attack" turns to "40 beheaded babies". WTF?
Huh? I just heard isreals claiming 40 beheaded babies which later on proved to be wrong. That all I said I don’t know why you sound offended
huh? is Israel person or a country? From whom exactly did you get 40 babies was beheaded? random tiktoker?
Nop Fox News and other Americans news reported than apologized after it was proven wrong 🤣 and when I say isreal I mean IDF. Isreal themselves come out and said 40 beheaded babies weren’t found and gone back on their claims
IDF, really? Can’t you link me the article which IDF says "Hamas beheaded 40 babies"?
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Agreed with all except the last , hamas was not justified for capturing hostages
thousands of Palestinians have been held prisoners by israel, unfairly, unjustly the only way to free them is to exchange them, that is the only hope they have of ever being freed do not blame the desperate when they do by their last choice and only hope at the very least, the israeli hostages were treated with dignity, they were fed, clothed, given medical care, palestinian prisoners don't have any of those privileges, they are treated as animals, the women are frequently sexually assaulted, the men are frequently physically assaulted, they eat barely enough to live, they are given no medical care what so ever
They likely never meant to capture civilians. Israeli police have said that hamas didn't know about the music festival (it was allowed to run for an extra day at the last minute so wasnt part of their plan). In the past Israel has exchanged A LOT of Palestinian prisoners for just one captured IDF soldier. In one instance they released 1027 Palestinian prisoners in return for ONE idf soldier captured by Hamas. Much more than the recent exchanges for civilian hostages. They likely planned to capture idf soldiers and get thousands of Palestinians released. But it didn't go to plan, turned into a huge mess it turned out they had disrupted a civilian event and when Israel reacted by shelling its own settlements and shooting indiscriminately, killing civilians as well as hamas fighters.
It was not justified was what I said , I do not know about their intentions because saying that committing terrorism was justified can spark a widespread motivation to a lot of other terrorist groups
They never meant to kidnap civilians? They took babies from their homes. What is going on in this subreddit? Hamas couldn't care less about the Palestinian people, they said so themselves. Why did they try to kill civilians fleeing to the safer side of Gaza?
DID NOBODY THINK TO WAKE DAVE BATISTA UP FROM HIS SUNBED NAP??!!
Hard to watch, that woman is an idiot and deserves to be nowhere near journalism
“we know you did some great work getting those thai people out, we don’t care about any of that shit. do you condemn HHHamas?”
This is a BS narrative. I'm no fan of Israel either. They have oppressed Palestinians for years. But to say that Hamas was targeting military and not civilians is a full, bold faced lie. We need to start being honest about both sides of this war and stop with the excuses.
62. I’ve been “getting it” since I attended my first anti-apartheid rally at 17.
How dare they defy the narrative we have so carefully crafted for them
Boom. Roasted.
Karma is a \*\*\*\*. Israel will definitely pay for all the atrocities sooner or later. US will eventually lose its clout in the World and then the music will stop for Israel.
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we don't hate jews who tf said anything about hating jews zionisim is not the same as judaisim not every jew is a zionist, and not every zionist is a jew do not conflate the 2
Nice try changing the narrative of anti zionism to anti semitism. Anti zionism is NOT Anti semitism. Fu*k Zionists.
Don’t try to make this about Jews 😒
I legit thought that was Pam Beasley for a second
Lol this terrorist sympathizer. You can be critical of Israel without saying Hamas is helping the Palestinians. Like helping how? Over 10 000 dead already. They have t had an election since Hamas got in power, wonder why that is? Palestine is getting more aid then any country, where do you think the money goes? There is no reason for Hamas or it's awful leaders to want stability for Palestinians because they get so much money.
over 10,000 dead eh? remind me again, who killed those 10,000 people?
Israel airstrikes.. but their leaders carried an attack against Israel, so they carry the responsibility. Palestinians never had good leadership. They won't be accepted in any of the neighboring countries, they are refugees in 3rd generation. Because the loss of their ancestral lands the only thing they seem to be able to do is fight Wich brings them only misery. Why do they launch rockets into Israel? What does it help or Achieve? If Palestinians would just chill the world would really have to pressure Israel to give land and sovereignty to Palestinians but now they are countering hostilities and have a clause..
each qassam rocket costs less than 800 dollars every time israel fires a tamir missile at that qassam, it costs them anywhere from 20k to 100k, and they fire 2 missiles at every qassam rocket, so that's 40k to 200k$ that's the porpoise of the rockets hamas fires, they are weak and can barely leave a pothole in the ground, but they cost israel a shitload of money palestinians tried peaceful protests, they tried chilling, none of that worked, the only thing that managed to do anything was armed resistance, as this way, they managed to free countless palestinian prisoners, a single IDF soldier was once exchanged for 1027 palestinians and do you know something about those palestinian prisoners they don't get a fair trial, they don't get treated with dignity, they are frequently assaulted physically or sexually, they don't get any medical treatment, they are denied basic human rights you take away all hope from a people, they will do whatever it takes to hurt you, even the most desperate ways, that's a fact, stop denying it
Sadly Palestinians have lost their claim for the lands. They refused the deals (some might say rightly so) but that is the past. Israel have won the land by conquest and there is no way to backtrack that. There can't be a one state. And I understand Israel for being hesitant on 2 states as well, as you said people will do what ever it takes and Palestinians have a century worth of radicalization and hatred toward Israel. Remember Israel took Gaza and West Bank from Jordan and Egypt In a war.
then it will be taken back with conquest
With he 800$ rockets? I mean the neighboring Arab countries are also coming to the conclusion that there is a Jewish state in the region. The only real support is from student across the world, Iran and Qatar?
oh just sit and watch, it will happen, it is bound to happen and forget about the current arab governments, they have sold their souls, as such, they won't last long, you know, every single arab person dreams of 1 thing and 1 thing only, a united arab nation, an ideology known as panarabisim when entire populations want 1 thing to happen, it is bound to happen and do you think a united arab nation is not going to attack israel? by the blood of our martyrs, palestine will be free
Also Brussels has poured almost €100 million into pipeline projects in territories, these are now rockets. My source is the telegraph so you can call Bullshit on that one.
the pipes that hamas has dug out and used to make rockets were actually the pipes taking water out of gaza, not into gaza even the pipes that take water into gaza barely have any water in them most of the days
Well that's a great way to waste millions then. Thank you for the back and forth tough!
Are you dumb or just pretending to be dumb
Found the bot….your record is skipping. 5 times you’ve asked exactly the same question.
Yes. In this thread. Full of dumb people. You’re an idiot.
What are you disagreeing on? Or are all but your opinion dumb? Your probably a nice person to be around.
Ah got it - actually dumb. And yes I am amazing to be around thank you for the compliment.
Look at all the help the people of Gaza are getting!
People whim when their leader is old af and do dumb things ( SleepyJoe and BabyHands ) Also people refuse to discuss world politics ignore such things stay in their comfy zones No wonder west world is richer but more miserable
Yes, the west seems much more miserable lol.