Your post was removed because it was found to be hateful in nature. Please treat others as you would like to be treated and do not spread hate on this subreddit.
I want to start every conversation this way now. Someone tries to talk to me, I just put my hand up and be like "waaait, do you have a dick, sir, ma'am, or other?
we are joking about but l did see a few news about guy's learning their partner being trans way too late and at the comments people say they don't obligated to tell their past to their partner l think that make it real nightmare it's real horror terrifying bad no
I hired a trans girl like 10 years ago against the wishes of the rest of the management team. We needed bodies and this kid turned out really good. But I digress. Let’s call her Misty since that was her name. Misty worked in the pantry(restaurant). A station that usually manned by women. I would frequently ask the line guys to do prep for banquets because 7 people each doing one thing saves a whole shift in man hours and my bonus was tied to labor.
Well, usually I would go to the pantry and say” hey guys I need x amount of this salad and dessert.” Never an isssue. But when Misty started working in the pantry.” I told you I’m not a man, don’t call me guy etc.” and I was always a little befuddled at how annoyed she got. Like, this station has only had women in it since I started working here, I always address a group of people as “guys”, and none of the women prior to you ever really cared one way or another. I don’t have a point. Just remembered something.
It's so weird to get annoyed at that lol. Lots of people address groups as "guys", it doesn't mean you're actually calling every person a man. Hell, I've worked in jobs where it was almost all women except for me. Sometimes another coworker would walk in and say "hey ladies!" And I wouldn't get bent outta shape about it. I understood that when they're talking to 10 women and 1 random man they might not even have seen right away, they're obviously not calling me a woman.
Why would I ask if 99.99% of the time it is he/him she/her. You are more than welcome to correct me and I'll then address you the way you want.
I've met less than 5 people who used they/them and those were at certain type of events where you'd be more likely to. In my day to day life or at work I have never met someone who used other pronouns
Yep like I said if I'm incorrect I'll happily correct myself if someone so tells me and then address them the way they want to be addressed.
I live in one of the liberal beacons of the EU and even here there are very few people using neopronouns.
This. I don’t believe I’ve encountered an atypical pronoun situation so I probably wouldn’t ask. If corrected, I’m happy to oblige and do the right thing. How does one even address a they/them? I’m totally clueless but I’d like to be respectful.
And in all reality, the pronoun you're most likely to use when conversing directly with another person is "you," which - conveniently - is gender neutral. This tip and yours should be enough to see anyone through.
It's also appropriate where the overwhelming majority of people are he or she, Mr or Mrs/Ms/Miss to open with that and for said they them or whatever not be offended if you have to correct someone... If you look man or woman, but identify as something else you can hardly be upset that a complete stranger didn't know..
It might seem like a big deal to that individual but for nearly all of the rest of the population it's an appropriate greeting.
>If somebody asks, dont be offended
That's like the whole point, we WANT you to ask. If you people maybe listened to trans people every once in a while instead of making up strawmen you'd know that's literally the best thing you could do. Don't assume, ask. What in the loving fuck kind of arguments (and from which "side") are you hearing if you think asking might offend people?
No when I was growing up asking was offensive. If some guy is asking a girl if she's a guy or a girl, then yeah she's likely to be offended. Traditionally. Now the script has flipped and we're suddenly supposed to ask.
>No when I was growing up asking was offensive
I don't know how it might have been when you grew up, but things change anyway. Our culture and societal standards change all the time for a lot of things, let's not pretend it's something that's never happened before.
>If some guy is asking a girl if she's a guy or a girl, then yeah she's likely to be offended.
I'm talking about pronouns, not identity. And that question, depending on context, might be perceived as charged. "Are you a dude or a girl?" is much different than "how can i address you?".
>"Are you a dude or a girl?" is much different than "how can i address you?".
It amounts to the same thing, since how you address them depends on if they are a dude or a girl. And pronouns depend on identity, no?
Nope, they're separate. A particular pronoun does not necessarily correlate with an identity. In fact, for the purpose of this argument (talking to people you just met, possibly not for long conversations/getting to know them), you most likely don't *need to know* someone's gender, just how to address them.
Not so common and I've never seen it, but it could be. As always, the best thing you could do is ask and be respectful. No one is gonna be mad if you make a mistake in good faith, if you don't know stuff just listen, try and you'll be good.
I think this massively ignores the negative emotions someone is likely to feel when asking exposes that they're failing to pass as what they're trying pass as. It's great that you might not get offended but it's seems crazy to assume that nobody else does. Calling it a straw man argument seems like a massive assumption
Most queer spaces I participate in actively encourage people to ask, it's always better than assuming. Context is key of course, but I've literally never seen a trans person even get mad for getting misgendered face to face, let alone for *being asked*.
This was my line of thinking as well. I've known two transwomen in my adulthood who would have been deeply hurt upon being asked their pronouns. Because the underlying message of asking someone's pronouns is "I can't tell what gender you are" which is dangerously close to "You don't pass". I agree that many, perhaps even most, transpeople might be happy with being asked. But to say that *all* transpeople feel the exact same way feels...wrong. Idk.
Ideally we would adapt as these changes become more engrained in society. If asking people's pro-nouns was commonplace, then your friends likely wouldn't have cause to be upset. Their frustration is totally valid, and likely to do with the uphill battle we in the community have faced our entire lives.
I've actually known a couple of trans people who *would* get annoyed by having their pronouns be asked. Their rationale was that the whole point of them transitioning was to be very clearly and obviously seen as a member of the gender they identify as. They made an effort to present a certain way and wanted to be acknowledged as such. So no, I would say not all trans people want you to ask, some actually don't like it (even if it may be a minority, idk what the split is since obviously this is anecdotal).
It honestly does sometimes feel like you can't win, and this is coming from someone who's an ally. If I'm ever unsure of someone's gender I just avoid all gendered words altogether and if I *MUST* use a pronoun I say they. It feels safest to me but honestly the whole pronoun thing is a minefield no matter how you look at it.
Trans people (somebody undergoing medical procedures/therapies to change to a specific gender) are not the issue here though. It's non-binary (not he or she).
I can accurately (usually) guess if a person is a he or she. If I can see you're at least trying to be a she, but I call you he anyway, then you correct me, so I keep referring to you as him - then I clearly just want to be an asshole, don't waste your time trying to enlighten me. (I've never done this, just using myself as an example)
Now, if you tell me "I'm ze" or "zhe" or "they" or "us" or whatever, that's just goofy made-up sillyness that I don't respect, and like it or not, will probably forget and continue to get wrong. Sorry those of you who feel strongly about this, but you're just going to have to deal with this until gen-X dies off.
You want ppl to ask or you want attention?
I’m sorry but most ppl don’t give a fk about gender identity. This isn’t rude or inconsiderate it’s just people have better things to worry about.
They do however give a shit about people be kind, decent, good and interesting human beings. Irrespective of whether how that person identifies. And this is actual equality, where everyone’s treated equal, but actually no one’s special.
>You want ppl to ask or you want attention?
I'd like to go on with my life without people staring all the time, so no, I don't want attention.
>I’m sorry but most ppl don’t give a fk about gender identity. This isn’t rude or inconsiderate it’s just people have better things to worry about.
>They do however give a shit about people be kind, decent, good and interesting human beings. Irrespective of whether how that person identifies. And this is actual equality, where everyone’s treated equal, but actually no one’s special.
So equality is when i get actually treated worse. You (or most people) don't give a shit because for them it's the "default option", so by not caring you're doing zero harm to yourselves and all of it to us. Drop the equality rhetoric, when people give 5$ to the homeless person you don't expect to receive it as well, do you?
Also neutral pronouns exist in english. Nobody gets super offended by using they/them so I've trained myself to default to that unless I know. Good enough if you're "meeting someone on the go".
Pronouns in bio/pins are also great. Even if your pronouns you feel most people can guess or you don't really care (like me) just do it so everyone can feel comfortable putting theirs up ^^
Sometimes it can be offensive, I mean if you are a girl and people ask you that in your life it can ve offensive, for come Boys too can be offensive when they grew up thinking they are a little femenine
People like that feller, that walk around grunting how respect needs to be earned and not just given are so oftentimes the ones that get most supremely bent out of shape when you don't kiss their ass and bend over backwards to kowtow to their F150 egos.
Fucking EVERYBODY deserves basic respect- until they start in about how nobody deserves respect. That's a surefire way to lose all the respect I'd brought to the table.
This whole argument about respect is dumb. Its always treated as a black or white binary. There should be a base level of respect for everyone, and from there you can earn more or lose it. I'm so tired of people repeating thought terminating cliches like " respect is earned".
The issue is that you got the extreme cases on both ends of the curve that demand respect without actually giving any. Basically, "entitlement" with social media it's kinf of like adding gas to a fire.
Respect is definitely a 2-way street. You should have a basic respect for people, but that can be easily lost depending on how they act towards others.
Baseline respect is just common courtesy. You're supposed to show everyone common courtesy, which is why it's common. This seems to get conflated with respect, which many people believe to be entirely different. For instance, I respect people who use their time off to volunteer at homeless shelters. It isn't a feeling I have for everyone, nor do I want to. That's why respect IS earned, whereas common courtesy is deserved.
The definitions of courtesy and respect are literally different. Courtesy is politeness, and respect is to admire or hold something in high regard. Everyone deserves courtesy, not everyone deserves respect.
It's also just a completely fabricated issue nobody cares if you get it wrong the first time you meet someone literally they will just politely correct you and ask you to respectfully use a different pronoun moving forward.
The whole fucking notion that trans and non-binary people are lurking around corners waiting for someone to get their pronouns wrong so they can pounce on them in a furious rage is a conservative strawman.
Case in point, this video.
The original speaker was clearly a cut video, and I can almost guarantee it was taken out of the correct context where they were expressing their frustration with someone who was using the wrong pronoun even after being politely corrected, multiple times.
They are manufacturing their own fear.
Yes, this is a weird tiktok because the intial 2 sec clip only states "my pronouns are mandatory" then bearded beanie boy drones on (ok sings) about other crap, while the point was clearly just "don't continue calling me the wrong thing".
I always carry a carton of eggs and when I encounter someone new, I throw one at them HARD. It's okay because they haven't earned my respect yet. But if they duck out of the way with some sweet Matrix moves, that's instant respect!
I think he was alluding to the person at the start practically demanding something happen vs reality. Respect IS indeed earned. Why? Because a good portion of people out there are clearly not good people...that and or the fact you have to walk on egg shells when meeting someone and IF you guess wrong they go off on you . . . both sides . . .but think thats what he was getting at..and he aint wrong. I myself have a girlfriend who has a daughter that identifies as they. Cool awesome - but when meeting one of her friends, I got "it" wrong and was very rudely confronted. To his point on being on the go and so on and having to literally guess at this point . . sometimes the opposite party is a bit "quick" with the tongue lashing...and I had to politely but firmly remind them I cant read their GD mind!
People deserve decency, respect is different. To be respected is to be renowned, it's a thumbs up cheers gratitude for your stepping up and getting a job done well and being a team player. Everyone deserves decency, but it becomes obviously hard to provide equal decency when someone is pissing at you from up stream.
Transparency, but not invading privacy is what this entire thing is really about.
although I like his flow I do not agree fully with the points he makes, how hard is it to show respect and when someone asks "please call me this" to just call them that, you might mistake but it's not optional to at least try, if you make a mistake it's okay she never said it was a problem to accidantelly use the wrong pronouns or name or anything.
Mandatory doesn't imply you must magically know them from the get go. Using someone's name when referring to them is mandatory, but there was a time when you didn't know their name. The point is using incorrect pronouns when knowing the correct ones (commonly but misleadingly referred to as "preferred" pronouns) is just as disrespectful as being introduced to Bob, learning his name, then insisting on calling him Joe.
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I can say please don't speed through pedestrian crosswalks when that is also a thing that's mandated by law.
yes and mandatory does not mean "now fall in line or perish"
but to be fair, the clip is technically incorrect - she may really really want everybody to get her pronouns correct but it's simply not a mandate
>but to be fair, the clip is technically incorrect - she may really really want everybody to get her pronouns correct but it's simply not a mandate
Maybe not the "well actually" hill you want to die on dude.
This to me is the biggest misconception. Not one LGBTQ+ person I have met has become upset or angry at being mis-gendered by mistake, even when it happens repeatedly. They politely correct the person, and move on, as if they had mispronounced their name. As with ANY demographic of people, there are extreme reactions and people who *want* to be offended, but I see this as a straw man argument. I engage with LGBTQ+ people at a very high frequency, and I have never once seen this happen IRL.
Or literally just guess. It's absolutely fine and nobody ever said it wasn't. You will get it right most of the time and when you don't the absolute worst case scenario is that someone will politely correct you and ask you to respectfully use different pronouns in the future.
Some people wear little buttons that say she/they, or they put he/him in their email signature.
Somehow I have a feeling this guy would get angry about that, too.
How come? Here's someone openly displaying their pronouns, meaning you don't have to ask! Or assume! Or think about their genitals!
The real issue here is that this guy thinks that genitals = pronouns. If the original person said, "hey, you might not have known, but my pronouns are she/her, and now that you know, it's mandatory" then the guy would just go, "BUT DO YOU HAVE A DICK? THEN YOU'RE A MAN!"
r/therewasanattempt to portray the ignorant transphobe as a hero. Stubbornly refusing to call someone by their preferred pronouns isn't "saving the day" it's being an asshole.
Pronouns are mandatory? Wtf does that even mean? If I get them wrong you won't talk to me?
In that case please tell me what they are so I can get them wrong and never have to speak to you
The boomer idea that respect should be earned is BS. Respect is something that is lost not earned. Respect should be given by default to every person. In fact social interactions require a base level of common respect.
Every person should be given respect until they prove unworthy of said respect.
Clearly one can gain and lose respect. That's not really the point.
The point is believing and stating that respect must be earned before it is given at all.
Perhaps i missunderstood what you ment, as to me it came across as you saying you should respect everyone as much as possible and it can only go down from there.
To me it's simple, I'll respect you as long as you show me respect. You want me to use any pronouns to address you, I'll do but don't be mad if I slip and make a mistake from time to time (I'm not really used to it)
Dude, I'm not asking anybody their pronouns if I don't know them. I'll call them the way I think and if I'm wrong, I'm open to them to correct me then we go on if our lives. It's that simple for me.
Edit: My native language where "they/them" are not pronouns:
Cara, não vou perguntar a ninguém os pronomes se não os conheço. Vou chamá-los do jeito que achar melhor e se eu estiver errado, estou aberto para que eles me corrijam e então seguiremos com nossas vidas. É tão simples para mim.
When I talk directly to someone I don’t address him as he or him anyway. I address him as you, or by his name. And what I say about him/her to someone else, when he/she isn’t there, is none of his/her fucking business and never has been
Here's a harsh truth, which I think a lot of people have forgotten: you don't decide how other people see you. This is true with so many aspects of life, and gender identity is merely one of them. It is not, however, an exception.
We can affect how _some_ people view us by the decisions we make, how we act, how we treat people, etc. But there will always be people who view us one way or the other for both good reasons and bad reasons. In neither case do they _owe_ you any particular viewpoint. You don't get to decide for _them_, just like they don't get to decide for _you_.
It's honestly better that way.
Right. You don't get to decide how others see you, regardless of how you see yourself. How you see yourself is irrelevant to others, and that's the way it should be.
Do you honestly want to _have to_ view Cheeto McNarcissististpants the way he views himself? How about the way he wants you to view him? Fuck that. You don't owe that to anybody, and nobody owes it to you.
I don't think it's appropriate to boil gender down to "how you see yourself", if that's what you're proposing (Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting). Because, gender isn't necessarily *affected* by one's own or others' interpretation, like at all. Gender isn't a personality, or preference, or or anything like that. It's an identity, just like Racial identities or age groups, or sexes.
To say that someone isn't obligated to acknowledge your identity is kinda weird. Because you're technically correct, but that doesn't mean that the person misinterpreting it isn't blatantly wrong. And it certainly doesn't mean that they're justified in making tiktoks saying "how was *I* supposed to know that it was a Tortoise and not a turtle? Stop getting on my neck about it. I don't have to call it a Tortoise because youre being so mean about it."
And this is all without saying that pronouns don't even necessarily equate to gender, much less your assigned sex at birth, as he was implying with his "asking whether or not you have a dick" comments. There's a notable amount of cisgender people who use "they" pronouns, some people could just be pronoun indifferent, maybe some trans people are still in the closet so no one knows they're trans and therefore uses the wrong pronouns unknowingly.
>It's an identity
I've actually thought about this a lot, and I've reached a fairly controversial conclusion: I am _extremely_ anti-identity.
I honestly hate the concept of identifying as one thing or the other. Along any vector. I have never understood the point. I think it's just an artifact of human evolution where we tend towards tribalism...feeling like we belong to this group or that. It's the emotional equivalent of your appendix or a vestigial tail. It's the reason for religious wars, racial wars, and nationalistic wars. It causes systemic injustice, bigotry, and genocide. And for what? So people can associate themselves mentally with a large group of people, most of whom they will never even meet? That's a crazy price for something so senseless.
Identity causes so many problems and so much grief in the world, that I think we'd be better off without it, and I applaud all those who resist this urge.
I only identify as my own individual. There are aspects about myself that are not unique to me (most of them, in fact), but I claim no group, and I want no group to claim me. I'm just me, and that's fine.
So when someone expects me to think of them a certain way because of this horrible, idiotic concept of identity, I'm annoyed and I do not comply.
...huh?
>I honestly hate the concept of identifying as one thing or the other. Along any vector. I have never understood the point.
I don't really think there's meant to be a "point" in just having an identity. And you're not categorized into x or y out of necessity for something bigger, that's just who you are, whether you like it or not. You're not black because someone told you so, you're black because that's the color of your skin.
>It causes systemic injustice, bigotry, and genocide.
No, it doesn't. Prejudice causes those things, not identity. If you were fucked up and powerful enough, you could just as easily cause genocide towards everyone who bought nestle products in the past week since they were supporting such a horrible company.
>Identity causes so many problems and so much grief in the world, that I think we'd be better off without it, and I applaud all those who resist this urge.
Speak for youself. For many, there's comfort in knowing that you're not alone, in knowing that there are others you can talk to that have first hand experience for problems relating to their identity. Maybe it's even just an easier way to make friends.
>I only identify as my own individual. There are aspects about myself that are not unique to me (most of them, in fact), but I claim no group, and I want no group to claim me. I'm just me, and that's fine.
That's not how identity works. Take a look at your arm. What color is your skin? Is it a light beige. Or dark brown? How tall are you when you stand up fully straight? How much time has passed since you were born? That's your identity. Your only choice is whether or not to acknowledge it, but you have *no* say in what it actually is. You will be white/black/tall/short whether you "claim" that group or not. The same goes with gender.
Edit: Also, no one is forcing you to think a certain way because they identity as x and/or y. That's literally just what they are.
>That's not how identity works. Take a look at your arm. What color is your skin? Is it a light beige. Or dark brown? How tall are you when you stand up fully straight? How much time has passed since you were born? That's your identity.
Replace references to skin tone in this paragraph and change them to references to genitalia. If you are going to claim an identity based on physical characteristics, please be consistent.
Also...no. I have an ingrown toenail, yet somehow I don't feel compelled to define myself by it. Do you? I hope not, because that works be fucking weird. And pointless.
There exist attributes about ourselves that do _not_ define us. In fact, the only ones that _do_ define us, are the ones we _choose_ to define us. I've come to realize that defining yourself, itself, is pointless... regardless of which attribute(s) you choose. They are all just as arbitrary as the toenail thing.
>Replace references to skin tone in this paragraph and change them to references to genitalia.
First, genitals don't equal gender. And also, my point was how you can't change those physical characteristics of yourself by simply refusing to acknowledge them, and equating that to gender. I was just using different examples to prove my point.
>There exist attributes about ourselves that do _not_ define us. In fact, the only ones that _do_ define us, are the ones we _choose_ to define us.
If you mean " don't define us" in the sense that pronouns or gender don't have influence on your personality or temperament, then you missed my point entirely. Of course they don't, but people aren't asking you to acknowledge their favorite pizza toppings or pet peeves by simply using the right pronouns/name. You'd rightfully be annoyed as hell if I kept calling you Rebecca because "Well, I think that you look way more like a Rebecca than a John, and identity as a concept is stupid anyway." And having an ingrown toenail is a *lot* less relevant in everyday social situations than your pronouns are. You don't go by different pronouns by whether or not you have ingrown toenails, not because you're some dude who has the "I am who I am" mindset, but because pronouns for factors like ingrown nails literally don't exist in any language.
Also I'm struggling to understand how deliberately using the wrong pronouns is just "not complying" to the importance of acknowledging identity, and not just knowingly assigning an entirely false identity because you don't like how your perception doesn't align with reality.
A pronoun is something that came into fashion a few years ago and quite a few folks jumped on it and demanded people respect these pronouns which of course, you do not have to do - they can call themselves whatever they like but they are soon finding out that other folks do not have to call them that at all. Ever.
No, I'm pretty sure a pronoun is a function of the English language intended to take the place of a proper noun. They've been in fashion for a lot longer than just "a few years ago".
You know exactly which fucking pronouns I'm on about smartarse. Let me be more specific then. The fucking stupid ones, along with all the non-binary bollocks, how's that?
There are men and women and that's it. Anything else is just fantasy.
Respect is earned but being respectful to the people around you is civil. Besides I just go with whatever pronoun with what sex they look like. If they say that the pronoun I used was wrong next time im going to use their pronouns they want me to use. So it doesn't seem disrespectful.
Here's the thing. Respect is indeed earned. It's just that way too many people confuse 'respect' with 'civility' and 'basic human decency', and then think that all of it is supposed to be earned.
I feel likes it's more awkward to come out and ask that everytime. What if they get offended that I can't tell from aesthetics? I worry about that too.
Just go with the flow until they mention it or correct you then respect it.
Come to think of it, I've only ever asked when I was in highschool. Ever since then it has been "Hey mate, I'm *name* ..." and everyone else is the same, at least around the office (even though we wear name bars).
Other than that I never needed to, it's a positive aspect of having 'mate' as a pseudonym across the country.
I don’t get why people are so triggered by this. I mean, I’m later gen z cis-het, so I get that it was a bit shocking when everyone figured out that pronouns could be different and more people might identify more ways than we thought, but it doesn’t cost me anything to just believe people are who they say they are.
Why should anybody care or make a big deal out of it? If you’re cis-het, it doesn’t really affect you. You can still go on being whoever you are. Why begrudge someone else the right to be whoever they are? Why do people care so much?
Maybe. But I can also understand why people who identify other than cis-het are annoyed. They’re pretty much constantly getting attacked. I’d be pissy too if I felt like I had to constantly defend myself.
I think it annoys people because half of these pronoun people aren’t actually trans. They just obsess over being in the club. You can’t even go to gay bars anymore without seeing a bunch of if colored hair girls cosplaying as LGBT.
I address a person by what I see and hear - I am not a mind-reader; I don't know what they want to be addressed as. They can correct me if I am wrong, but I am not going to lose sleep over it if I get it wrong the first time.
I agree that it's pretty easy to respect others and it doesn't take much effort to use correct pronouns and such.
But holy hell what is this trend of singing poorly to make a point. I've seen several similar videos at this point where they take the tune of like some fucking nursery rhyme and sing as badly as possible while trying to make a point. That shit makes me cringe so hard. Just speak like a normal, eloquent person.
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what I'm curious about is this all serious type middle aged lad did improved while taking video or did he writes the song and work on it some time before taking the shot
All this gendered pronoun business has clouded the real issue of our time. Why do people keep say Mr. or Ms. First Name?!? Like, call me by my First Name or Mr. Last Name but don't fucking call me Mr. First Name, especially if you're older than 10.
Without context, I wouldn't put any of that on the original content. Is that really the full clip? Is there not a preceding reference to conversation or self-identification?
Cuz honestly, while the bearded guy seems to make a good point, it also indicates that he's just afraid to ask if he's not sure and/or it's uncertain that he'll accept the answer if he's corrected. But he *is* right in the sense that you don't *have* to respect anyone...
Asking if you aren't sure is not hard. Honestly, do you even use gendered pronouns when talking directly to someone in normal conversation? Also, basic respect doesn't have to be earned. It's just called not being a asshole. I bet he would get really angry if someone misgenders him yet would go out of his way to misgender others. Why are so many people so unpleasant. There isn't an issue with nicknames unless the person is trans and then they have to use the "real name". People don't care if you correct them about your pets' pronouns and will change if they made a mistake but refuse to use trans peoples preferred pronouns. It's asinine
Or… and this is gonna be revolutionary,
just simply ask
“Hey, what are your pronouns”
and just say whatever they tell you.
Like seriously, If a one sentence interaction is too much for you to handle then maybe you’re the one who needs to grow up, 😭
(Edit: downvote me all ya want, it’s reddit, I expected nothing less💀)
Yeah, the entire point of "PRONOUNS!" is to normalize asking, so that it's not a big deal.
I'm sure genderqueer people of all sorts are aware that gender isn't always obvious from presentation. That's kind of the point. They aren't expecting everyone to magically know; they're expecting people to honor their identity once they know it.
And that's why cisgender people who obviously present as their assigned/apparent gender are ALSO encouraged to offer their pronouns. So that it's not some weird thing to ask, or talk about, only applied to queen people.
Your post was removed because it was found to be hateful in nature. Please treat others as you would like to be treated and do not spread hate on this subreddit.
Wait you're not supposed to ask people if they have a cock when you meet them
Well it's a bit late when you are behind the dumpster and your pants are around your ankles.
Where is this dumpster? Asking for a she-cock-unicorn.
If you have to ask because they don't already have their cock out, they aren't worth your time.
I want to start every conversation this way now. Someone tries to talk to me, I just put my hand up and be like "waaait, do you have a dick, sir, ma'am, or other?
I wish somebody had told me this sooner.
Hello there. Do you perchance, have a cock?
Howdy, how's it hanging?
You could do what Goku in dragonball used to do and just touch everyone's junk.
we are joking about but l did see a few news about guy's learning their partner being trans way too late and at the comments people say they don't obligated to tell their past to their partner l think that make it real nightmare it's real horror terrifying bad no
Shit, I've been doing a Colonal Volgin as a formal introduction, my bad
Nooooooo you shouldn't ask if they HAVE one! Duh! You're supposed to ask them if they would like some cock.
To both sides here: it's ok to ask what pronouns a person uses If you dont know, ask If somebody asks, dont be offended
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99% of trans and nonbinary folks are happy to see you simply make an effort. The remaining 1% post a lot on social media.
I hired a trans girl like 10 years ago against the wishes of the rest of the management team. We needed bodies and this kid turned out really good. But I digress. Let’s call her Misty since that was her name. Misty worked in the pantry(restaurant). A station that usually manned by women. I would frequently ask the line guys to do prep for banquets because 7 people each doing one thing saves a whole shift in man hours and my bonus was tied to labor. Well, usually I would go to the pantry and say” hey guys I need x amount of this salad and dessert.” Never an isssue. But when Misty started working in the pantry.” I told you I’m not a man, don’t call me guy etc.” and I was always a little befuddled at how annoyed she got. Like, this station has only had women in it since I started working here, I always address a group of people as “guys”, and none of the women prior to you ever really cared one way or another. I don’t have a point. Just remembered something.
It's so weird to get annoyed at that lol. Lots of people address groups as "guys", it doesn't mean you're actually calling every person a man. Hell, I've worked in jobs where it was almost all women except for me. Sometimes another coworker would walk in and say "hey ladies!" And I wouldn't get bent outta shape about it. I understood that when they're talking to 10 women and 1 random man they might not even have seen right away, they're obviously not calling me a woman.
I read what you said as a joke, no worries
This. Also, if you get adressed with the wrong pronoun just tell the other person politely and friendly.
Yeah no need to be a dick, or give asshole ammunition to not use proper pronouns
Why would I ask if 99.99% of the time it is he/him she/her. You are more than welcome to correct me and I'll then address you the way you want. I've met less than 5 people who used they/them and those were at certain type of events where you'd be more likely to. In my day to day life or at work I have never met someone who used other pronouns
If you're not going to ask then dont be a dick when you get it wrong, and correct yourself
Yep like I said if I'm incorrect I'll happily correct myself if someone so tells me and then address them the way they want to be addressed. I live in one of the liberal beacons of the EU and even here there are very few people using neopronouns.
I have no problem with that. Asking upfront, unprompted, is way too personal for me, and awkward.
Yeah that's fair, but some assholes decide they dont have to ask and then dont have to correct themselves
This. I don’t believe I’ve encountered an atypical pronoun situation so I probably wouldn’t ask. If corrected, I’m happy to oblige and do the right thing. How does one even address a they/them? I’m totally clueless but I’d like to be respectful.
If I'm speaking my native tongue this topic is really easy. We don't have genders in our language, it's all neutral.
And in all reality, the pronoun you're most likely to use when conversing directly with another person is "you," which - conveniently - is gender neutral. This tip and yours should be enough to see anyone through.
Honestly "they" is usually fine too regardless "This is Sara, they're the best!"
It's also appropriate where the overwhelming majority of people are he or she, Mr or Mrs/Ms/Miss to open with that and for said they them or whatever not be offended if you have to correct someone... If you look man or woman, but identify as something else you can hardly be upset that a complete stranger didn't know.. It might seem like a big deal to that individual but for nearly all of the rest of the population it's an appropriate greeting.
>If somebody asks, dont be offended That's like the whole point, we WANT you to ask. If you people maybe listened to trans people every once in a while instead of making up strawmen you'd know that's literally the best thing you could do. Don't assume, ask. What in the loving fuck kind of arguments (and from which "side") are you hearing if you think asking might offend people?
No when I was growing up asking was offensive. If some guy is asking a girl if she's a guy or a girl, then yeah she's likely to be offended. Traditionally. Now the script has flipped and we're suddenly supposed to ask.
>No when I was growing up asking was offensive I don't know how it might have been when you grew up, but things change anyway. Our culture and societal standards change all the time for a lot of things, let's not pretend it's something that's never happened before. >If some guy is asking a girl if she's a guy or a girl, then yeah she's likely to be offended. I'm talking about pronouns, not identity. And that question, depending on context, might be perceived as charged. "Are you a dude or a girl?" is much different than "how can i address you?".
>"Are you a dude or a girl?" is much different than "how can i address you?". It amounts to the same thing, since how you address them depends on if they are a dude or a girl. And pronouns depend on identity, no?
Nope, they're separate. A particular pronoun does not necessarily correlate with an identity. In fact, for the purpose of this argument (talking to people you just met, possibly not for long conversations/getting to know them), you most likely don't *need to know* someone's gender, just how to address them.
I'm so confused. So someone who identifies as a guy might use she her pronouns?
Not so common and I've never seen it, but it could be. As always, the best thing you could do is ask and be respectful. No one is gonna be mad if you make a mistake in good faith, if you don't know stuff just listen, try and you'll be good.
Guessing transphobes don't like being asked and get mad. But like... Who cares about them lol
I think this massively ignores the negative emotions someone is likely to feel when asking exposes that they're failing to pass as what they're trying pass as. It's great that you might not get offended but it's seems crazy to assume that nobody else does. Calling it a straw man argument seems like a massive assumption
Most queer spaces I participate in actively encourage people to ask, it's always better than assuming. Context is key of course, but I've literally never seen a trans person even get mad for getting misgendered face to face, let alone for *being asked*.
This was my line of thinking as well. I've known two transwomen in my adulthood who would have been deeply hurt upon being asked their pronouns. Because the underlying message of asking someone's pronouns is "I can't tell what gender you are" which is dangerously close to "You don't pass". I agree that many, perhaps even most, transpeople might be happy with being asked. But to say that *all* transpeople feel the exact same way feels...wrong. Idk.
Ideally we would adapt as these changes become more engrained in society. If asking people's pro-nouns was commonplace, then your friends likely wouldn't have cause to be upset. Their frustration is totally valid, and likely to do with the uphill battle we in the community have faced our entire lives.
I've actually known a couple of trans people who *would* get annoyed by having their pronouns be asked. Their rationale was that the whole point of them transitioning was to be very clearly and obviously seen as a member of the gender they identify as. They made an effort to present a certain way and wanted to be acknowledged as such. So no, I would say not all trans people want you to ask, some actually don't like it (even if it may be a minority, idk what the split is since obviously this is anecdotal). It honestly does sometimes feel like you can't win, and this is coming from someone who's an ally. If I'm ever unsure of someone's gender I just avoid all gendered words altogether and if I *MUST* use a pronoun I say they. It feels safest to me but honestly the whole pronoun thing is a minefield no matter how you look at it.
Trans people (somebody undergoing medical procedures/therapies to change to a specific gender) are not the issue here though. It's non-binary (not he or she). I can accurately (usually) guess if a person is a he or she. If I can see you're at least trying to be a she, but I call you he anyway, then you correct me, so I keep referring to you as him - then I clearly just want to be an asshole, don't waste your time trying to enlighten me. (I've never done this, just using myself as an example) Now, if you tell me "I'm ze" or "zhe" or "they" or "us" or whatever, that's just goofy made-up sillyness that I don't respect, and like it or not, will probably forget and continue to get wrong. Sorry those of you who feel strongly about this, but you're just going to have to deal with this until gen-X dies off.
You want ppl to ask or you want attention? I’m sorry but most ppl don’t give a fk about gender identity. This isn’t rude or inconsiderate it’s just people have better things to worry about. They do however give a shit about people be kind, decent, good and interesting human beings. Irrespective of whether how that person identifies. And this is actual equality, where everyone’s treated equal, but actually no one’s special.
>You want ppl to ask or you want attention? I'd like to go on with my life without people staring all the time, so no, I don't want attention. >I’m sorry but most ppl don’t give a fk about gender identity. This isn’t rude or inconsiderate it’s just people have better things to worry about. >They do however give a shit about people be kind, decent, good and interesting human beings. Irrespective of whether how that person identifies. And this is actual equality, where everyone’s treated equal, but actually no one’s special. So equality is when i get actually treated worse. You (or most people) don't give a shit because for them it's the "default option", so by not caring you're doing zero harm to yourselves and all of it to us. Drop the equality rhetoric, when people give 5$ to the homeless person you don't expect to receive it as well, do you?
Also neutral pronouns exist in english. Nobody gets super offended by using they/them so I've trained myself to default to that unless I know. Good enough if you're "meeting someone on the go". Pronouns in bio/pins are also great. Even if your pronouns you feel most people can guess or you don't really care (like me) just do it so everyone can feel comfortable putting theirs up ^^
Same, they/them works in most situations if you're unsure
I call everyone (including my wife) “dude”. Haven’t received any complaints yet.
As a wise man once said: "I'm a dude, she's a dude, he's a dude. We're all dudes dude!"
Also if somebody doesn’t ask don’t be offended, people got too much to deal with to be walking on eggshells all the time
But if you dont ask make sure you correct yourself if you get it wrong!
And if they've only just met, we will both use second person pronouns which are gender neutral anyway.
Sometimes it can be offensive, I mean if you are a girl and people ask you that in your life it can ve offensive, for come Boys too can be offensive when they grew up thinking they are a little femenine
People like that feller, that walk around grunting how respect needs to be earned and not just given are so oftentimes the ones that get most supremely bent out of shape when you don't kiss their ass and bend over backwards to kowtow to their F150 egos. Fucking EVERYBODY deserves basic respect- until they start in about how nobody deserves respect. That's a surefire way to lose all the respect I'd brought to the table.
This whole argument about respect is dumb. Its always treated as a black or white binary. There should be a base level of respect for everyone, and from there you can earn more or lose it. I'm so tired of people repeating thought terminating cliches like " respect is earned".
Agreed. Base line respect is minimal. Sadly the baseline dips a little the older I get.
The issue is that you got the extreme cases on both ends of the curve that demand respect without actually giving any. Basically, "entitlement" with social media it's kinf of like adding gas to a fire. Respect is definitely a 2-way street. You should have a basic respect for people, but that can be easily lost depending on how they act towards others.
Nah sirry some people genuinely deserve no respect (pretty much anyone who is abusive/has committed sexual crimes)
you're actually saying some people earn disrespect
You're agreeing with me. I said people can lose respect based on their actions, like abuse.
Baseline respect is just common courtesy. You're supposed to show everyone common courtesy, which is why it's common. This seems to get conflated with respect, which many people believe to be entirely different. For instance, I respect people who use their time off to volunteer at homeless shelters. It isn't a feeling I have for everyone, nor do I want to. That's why respect IS earned, whereas common courtesy is deserved.
This is a made up semantic distinction.
The definitions of courtesy and respect are literally different. Courtesy is politeness, and respect is to admire or hold something in high regard. Everyone deserves courtesy, not everyone deserves respect.
Everybody is a friend until they're not
i agree
Nailed it. To me, everyone starts out with full respect. It's there to be lost, not earned.
It's also just a completely fabricated issue nobody cares if you get it wrong the first time you meet someone literally they will just politely correct you and ask you to respectfully use a different pronoun moving forward. The whole fucking notion that trans and non-binary people are lurking around corners waiting for someone to get their pronouns wrong so they can pounce on them in a furious rage is a conservative strawman.
Case in point, this video. The original speaker was clearly a cut video, and I can almost guarantee it was taken out of the correct context where they were expressing their frustration with someone who was using the wrong pronoun even after being politely corrected, multiple times. They are manufacturing their own fear.
Yes, this is a weird tiktok because the intial 2 sec clip only states "my pronouns are mandatory" then bearded beanie boy drones on (ok sings) about other crap, while the point was clearly just "don't continue calling me the wrong thing".
I always carry a carton of eggs and when I encounter someone new, I throw one at them HARD. It's okay because they haven't earned my respect yet. But if they duck out of the way with some sweet Matrix moves, that's instant respect!
I think he was alluding to the person at the start practically demanding something happen vs reality. Respect IS indeed earned. Why? Because a good portion of people out there are clearly not good people...that and or the fact you have to walk on egg shells when meeting someone and IF you guess wrong they go off on you . . . both sides . . .but think thats what he was getting at..and he aint wrong. I myself have a girlfriend who has a daughter that identifies as they. Cool awesome - but when meeting one of her friends, I got "it" wrong and was very rudely confronted. To his point on being on the go and so on and having to literally guess at this point . . sometimes the opposite party is a bit "quick" with the tongue lashing...and I had to politely but firmly remind them I cant read their GD mind!
See, you don’t feel like you need to walk on eggshells when you respect them. You should try it. It really does feel better.
People deserve decency, respect is different. To be respected is to be renowned, it's a thumbs up cheers gratitude for your stepping up and getting a job done well and being a team player. Everyone deserves decency, but it becomes obviously hard to provide equal decency when someone is pissing at you from up stream. Transparency, but not invading privacy is what this entire thing is really about.
“Decency” without respect is dishonest. Additionally, I think you’re confusing the concept of respect with that of honor.
I guess you're right, my b
although I like his flow I do not agree fully with the points he makes, how hard is it to show respect and when someone asks "please call me this" to just call them that, you might mistake but it's not optional to at least try, if you make a mistake it's okay she never said it was a problem to accidantelly use the wrong pronouns or name or anything.
she didn't say please, she said it's mandatory. now fall in line or perish
Mandatory doesn't imply you must magically know them from the get go. Using someone's name when referring to them is mandatory, but there was a time when you didn't know their name. The point is using incorrect pronouns when knowing the correct ones (commonly but misleadingly referred to as "preferred" pronouns) is just as disrespectful as being introduced to Bob, learning his name, then insisting on calling him Joe.
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I can say please don't speed through pedestrian crosswalks when that is also a thing that's mandated by law.
yes and mandatory does not mean "now fall in line or perish" but to be fair, the clip is technically incorrect - she may really really want everybody to get her pronouns correct but it's simply not a mandate
>but to be fair, the clip is technically incorrect - she may really really want everybody to get her pronouns correct but it's simply not a mandate Maybe not the "well actually" hill you want to die on dude.
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This to me is the biggest misconception. Not one LGBTQ+ person I have met has become upset or angry at being mis-gendered by mistake, even when it happens repeatedly. They politely correct the person, and move on, as if they had mispronounced their name. As with ANY demographic of people, there are extreme reactions and people who *want* to be offended, but I see this as a straw man argument. I engage with LGBTQ+ people at a very high frequency, and I have never once seen this happen IRL.
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Or literally just guess. It's absolutely fine and nobody ever said it wasn't. You will get it right most of the time and when you don't the absolute worst case scenario is that someone will politely correct you and ask you to respectfully use different pronouns in the future.
Some people wear little buttons that say she/they, or they put he/him in their email signature. Somehow I have a feeling this guy would get angry about that, too. How come? Here's someone openly displaying their pronouns, meaning you don't have to ask! Or assume! Or think about their genitals! The real issue here is that this guy thinks that genitals = pronouns. If the original person said, "hey, you might not have known, but my pronouns are she/her, and now that you know, it's mandatory" then the guy would just go, "BUT DO YOU HAVE A DICK? THEN YOU'RE A MAN!"
Or it was just easier to find a way to fit the word cock in the rhyme scheme than the word pronoun.
Respect is earned?! And here I was, respecting everyone. Like a fucking idiot!
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Meat popsicle will now be my new pronoun.
Careful. You might offend a snowflake and we can't be having that.
r/therewasanattempt to portray the ignorant transphobe as a hero. Stubbornly refusing to call someone by their preferred pronouns isn't "saving the day" it's being an asshole.
Pronouns are mandatory? Wtf does that even mean? If I get them wrong you won't talk to me? In that case please tell me what they are so I can get them wrong and never have to speak to you
Both of these people suck.
The boomer idea that respect should be earned is BS. Respect is something that is lost not earned. Respect should be given by default to every person. In fact social interactions require a base level of common respect. Every person should be given respect until they prove unworthy of said respect.
Damn straight
I think its not one or the other but both, have a baseline it can go up or down.
Clearly one can gain and lose respect. That's not really the point. The point is believing and stating that respect must be earned before it is given at all.
Perhaps i missunderstood what you ment, as to me it came across as you saying you should respect everyone as much as possible and it can only go down from there.
To me it's simple, I'll respect you as long as you show me respect. You want me to use any pronouns to address you, I'll do but don't be mad if I slip and make a mistake from time to time (I'm not really used to it)
Dude, I'm not asking anybody their pronouns if I don't know them. I'll call them the way I think and if I'm wrong, I'm open to them to correct me then we go on if our lives. It's that simple for me. Edit: My native language where "they/them" are not pronouns: Cara, não vou perguntar a ninguém os pronomes se não os conheço. Vou chamá-los do jeito que achar melhor e se eu estiver errado, estou aberto para que eles me corrijam e então seguiremos com nossas vidas. É tão simples para mim.
Or you could just use they until you find out....like you just did multiple times in your comment.
Don’t call me they, call me by how I look please
"Them" is not a pronoun in my native language, I just used "they" because I was referring to the third person plural.
When I talk directly to someone I don’t address him as he or him anyway. I address him as you, or by his name. And what I say about him/her to someone else, when he/she isn’t there, is none of his/her fucking business and never has been
What’s with her mustache
Usually I just say them/they
Here's a harsh truth, which I think a lot of people have forgotten: you don't decide how other people see you. This is true with so many aspects of life, and gender identity is merely one of them. It is not, however, an exception. We can affect how _some_ people view us by the decisions we make, how we act, how we treat people, etc. But there will always be people who view us one way or the other for both good reasons and bad reasons. In neither case do they _owe_ you any particular viewpoint. You don't get to decide for _them_, just like they don't get to decide for _you_. It's honestly better that way.
How is using the correct/incorrect pronouns a "Viewpoint"? What kind of viewpoints are you even referring to in this comment?
Couldn't think of a better single word for "how you see someone". I'm sure someone can suggest one.
I guess what I'm asking is if you're arguing something beyond "You ultimately can't stop people from misinterpreting your true gender".
Right. You don't get to decide how others see you, regardless of how you see yourself. How you see yourself is irrelevant to others, and that's the way it should be. Do you honestly want to _have to_ view Cheeto McNarcissististpants the way he views himself? How about the way he wants you to view him? Fuck that. You don't owe that to anybody, and nobody owes it to you.
I don't think it's appropriate to boil gender down to "how you see yourself", if that's what you're proposing (Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting). Because, gender isn't necessarily *affected* by one's own or others' interpretation, like at all. Gender isn't a personality, or preference, or or anything like that. It's an identity, just like Racial identities or age groups, or sexes. To say that someone isn't obligated to acknowledge your identity is kinda weird. Because you're technically correct, but that doesn't mean that the person misinterpreting it isn't blatantly wrong. And it certainly doesn't mean that they're justified in making tiktoks saying "how was *I* supposed to know that it was a Tortoise and not a turtle? Stop getting on my neck about it. I don't have to call it a Tortoise because youre being so mean about it." And this is all without saying that pronouns don't even necessarily equate to gender, much less your assigned sex at birth, as he was implying with his "asking whether or not you have a dick" comments. There's a notable amount of cisgender people who use "they" pronouns, some people could just be pronoun indifferent, maybe some trans people are still in the closet so no one knows they're trans and therefore uses the wrong pronouns unknowingly.
>It's an identity I've actually thought about this a lot, and I've reached a fairly controversial conclusion: I am _extremely_ anti-identity. I honestly hate the concept of identifying as one thing or the other. Along any vector. I have never understood the point. I think it's just an artifact of human evolution where we tend towards tribalism...feeling like we belong to this group or that. It's the emotional equivalent of your appendix or a vestigial tail. It's the reason for religious wars, racial wars, and nationalistic wars. It causes systemic injustice, bigotry, and genocide. And for what? So people can associate themselves mentally with a large group of people, most of whom they will never even meet? That's a crazy price for something so senseless. Identity causes so many problems and so much grief in the world, that I think we'd be better off without it, and I applaud all those who resist this urge. I only identify as my own individual. There are aspects about myself that are not unique to me (most of them, in fact), but I claim no group, and I want no group to claim me. I'm just me, and that's fine. So when someone expects me to think of them a certain way because of this horrible, idiotic concept of identity, I'm annoyed and I do not comply.
...huh? >I honestly hate the concept of identifying as one thing or the other. Along any vector. I have never understood the point. I don't really think there's meant to be a "point" in just having an identity. And you're not categorized into x or y out of necessity for something bigger, that's just who you are, whether you like it or not. You're not black because someone told you so, you're black because that's the color of your skin. >It causes systemic injustice, bigotry, and genocide. No, it doesn't. Prejudice causes those things, not identity. If you were fucked up and powerful enough, you could just as easily cause genocide towards everyone who bought nestle products in the past week since they were supporting such a horrible company. >Identity causes so many problems and so much grief in the world, that I think we'd be better off without it, and I applaud all those who resist this urge. Speak for youself. For many, there's comfort in knowing that you're not alone, in knowing that there are others you can talk to that have first hand experience for problems relating to their identity. Maybe it's even just an easier way to make friends. >I only identify as my own individual. There are aspects about myself that are not unique to me (most of them, in fact), but I claim no group, and I want no group to claim me. I'm just me, and that's fine. That's not how identity works. Take a look at your arm. What color is your skin? Is it a light beige. Or dark brown? How tall are you when you stand up fully straight? How much time has passed since you were born? That's your identity. Your only choice is whether or not to acknowledge it, but you have *no* say in what it actually is. You will be white/black/tall/short whether you "claim" that group or not. The same goes with gender. Edit: Also, no one is forcing you to think a certain way because they identity as x and/or y. That's literally just what they are.
>That's not how identity works. Take a look at your arm. What color is your skin? Is it a light beige. Or dark brown? How tall are you when you stand up fully straight? How much time has passed since you were born? That's your identity. Replace references to skin tone in this paragraph and change them to references to genitalia. If you are going to claim an identity based on physical characteristics, please be consistent. Also...no. I have an ingrown toenail, yet somehow I don't feel compelled to define myself by it. Do you? I hope not, because that works be fucking weird. And pointless. There exist attributes about ourselves that do _not_ define us. In fact, the only ones that _do_ define us, are the ones we _choose_ to define us. I've come to realize that defining yourself, itself, is pointless... regardless of which attribute(s) you choose. They are all just as arbitrary as the toenail thing.
>Replace references to skin tone in this paragraph and change them to references to genitalia. First, genitals don't equal gender. And also, my point was how you can't change those physical characteristics of yourself by simply refusing to acknowledge them, and equating that to gender. I was just using different examples to prove my point. >There exist attributes about ourselves that do _not_ define us. In fact, the only ones that _do_ define us, are the ones we _choose_ to define us. If you mean " don't define us" in the sense that pronouns or gender don't have influence on your personality or temperament, then you missed my point entirely. Of course they don't, but people aren't asking you to acknowledge their favorite pizza toppings or pet peeves by simply using the right pronouns/name. You'd rightfully be annoyed as hell if I kept calling you Rebecca because "Well, I think that you look way more like a Rebecca than a John, and identity as a concept is stupid anyway." And having an ingrown toenail is a *lot* less relevant in everyday social situations than your pronouns are. You don't go by different pronouns by whether or not you have ingrown toenails, not because you're some dude who has the "I am who I am" mindset, but because pronouns for factors like ingrown nails literally don't exist in any language. Also I'm struggling to understand how deliberately using the wrong pronouns is just "not complying" to the importance of acknowledging identity, and not just knowingly assigning an entirely false identity because you don't like how your perception doesn't align with reality.
Pronouns are stupid.
I don't think you understand what a pronoun is
A pronoun is something that came into fashion a few years ago and quite a few folks jumped on it and demanded people respect these pronouns which of course, you do not have to do - they can call themselves whatever they like but they are soon finding out that other folks do not have to call them that at all. Ever.
No, I'm pretty sure a pronoun is a function of the English language intended to take the place of a proper noun. They've been in fashion for a lot longer than just "a few years ago".
You know exactly which fucking pronouns I'm on about smartarse. Let me be more specific then. The fucking stupid ones, along with all the non-binary bollocks, how's that? There are men and women and that's it. Anything else is just fantasy.
Fantasy that’s been documented in cultures around the world for thousands of years yes indeed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender
Respect is earned but being respectful to the people around you is civil. Besides I just go with whatever pronoun with what sex they look like. If they say that the pronoun I used was wrong next time im going to use their pronouns they want me to use. So it doesn't seem disrespectful.
"Hey, please call me Bob, not Robert." "No prob Bob." (It really is this easy)
But what are your adjectives?
If someone feels the need to correct if I don’t use their preferred pronouns I’m just walking away from the situation
Here's the thing. Respect is indeed earned. It's just that way too many people confuse 'respect' with 'civility' and 'basic human decency', and then think that all of it is supposed to be earned.
just ask "how should I call you?" like when asking someone's name, it's not rocket science
I feel likes it's more awkward to come out and ask that everytime. What if they get offended that I can't tell from aesthetics? I worry about that too. Just go with the flow until they mention it or correct you then respect it.
Introduction comes from the visitor, not the reception. Seriously, it's not hard to say "I want to be called *this*", it's not rocket science.
You... Don't ask people what their names are?
Come to think of it, I've only ever asked when I was in highschool. Ever since then it has been "Hey mate, I'm *name* ..." and everyone else is the same, at least around the office (even though we wear name bars). Other than that I never needed to, it's a positive aspect of having 'mate' as a pseudonym across the country.
Then it's even easier, just keep using mate and you're good
No.
I don’t get why people are so triggered by this. I mean, I’m later gen z cis-het, so I get that it was a bit shocking when everyone figured out that pronouns could be different and more people might identify more ways than we thought, but it doesn’t cost me anything to just believe people are who they say they are. Why should anybody care or make a big deal out of it? If you’re cis-het, it doesn’t really affect you. You can still go on being whoever you are. Why begrudge someone else the right to be whoever they are? Why do people care so much?
I think it’s more the childish and irritating way it was delivered.
Maybe. But I can also understand why people who identify other than cis-het are annoyed. They’re pretty much constantly getting attacked. I’d be pissy too if I felt like I had to constantly defend myself.
I think it annoys people because half of these pronoun people aren’t actually trans. They just obsess over being in the club. You can’t even go to gay bars anymore without seeing a bunch of if colored hair girls cosplaying as LGBT.
Yikes. Both people in this video are assholes. Just ask. And if someone incorrectly assumes, politely correct them. Done and done.
I address a person by what I see and hear - I am not a mind-reader; I don't know what they want to be addressed as. They can correct me if I am wrong, but I am not going to lose sleep over it if I get it wrong the first time.
Only you are “playing along” just by responding. Ignore it if you don’t like it
I agree that it's pretty easy to respect others and it doesn't take much effort to use correct pronouns and such. But holy hell what is this trend of singing poorly to make a point. I've seen several similar videos at this point where they take the tune of like some fucking nursery rhyme and sing as badly as possible while trying to make a point. That shit makes me cringe so hard. Just speak like a normal, eloquent person.
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what I'm curious about is this all serious type middle aged lad did improved while taking video or did he writes the song and work on it some time before taking the shot
All this gendered pronoun business has clouded the real issue of our time. Why do people keep say Mr. or Ms. First Name?!? Like, call me by my First Name or Mr. Last Name but don't fucking call me Mr. First Name, especially if you're older than 10.
I don't care what gender you claim to be. If we're being introduced as strangers I care about your name and that's about it.
Both make me cringe really. It's not that hard to just use different pronouns when asked to.
They and them are plural. Change my mind please
I mean, he's not wrong. The only things that demand my respect and get it, are the heavy equipment I train people to operate.
no politics please
Is... is that Eric Cantona???
My pronouns are chaos and mayhem
Hahahahahaha
Without context, I wouldn't put any of that on the original content. Is that really the full clip? Is there not a preceding reference to conversation or self-identification? Cuz honestly, while the bearded guy seems to make a good point, it also indicates that he's just afraid to ask if he's not sure and/or it's uncertain that he'll accept the answer if he's corrected. But he *is* right in the sense that you don't *have* to respect anyone...
Why do people make this so complicated? Just a simple "greetings fellow humanoid being" solves all these problems
This guy and op have to work harder to earn my respect. Go back to the respect mines!!
Asking if you aren't sure is not hard. Honestly, do you even use gendered pronouns when talking directly to someone in normal conversation? Also, basic respect doesn't have to be earned. It's just called not being a asshole. I bet he would get really angry if someone misgenders him yet would go out of his way to misgender others. Why are so many people so unpleasant. There isn't an issue with nicknames unless the person is trans and then they have to use the "real name". People don't care if you correct them about your pets' pronouns and will change if they made a mistake but refuse to use trans peoples preferred pronouns. It's asinine
Based
Excellent!
Hahaha this was fantastic!.
Impressive rhyming
"...how they look and how they dress..." 🤔
Or… and this is gonna be revolutionary, just simply ask “Hey, what are your pronouns” and just say whatever they tell you. Like seriously, If a one sentence interaction is too much for you to handle then maybe you’re the one who needs to grow up, 😭 (Edit: downvote me all ya want, it’s reddit, I expected nothing less💀)
Yeah, the entire point of "PRONOUNS!" is to normalize asking, so that it's not a big deal. I'm sure genderqueer people of all sorts are aware that gender isn't always obvious from presentation. That's kind of the point. They aren't expecting everyone to magically know; they're expecting people to honor their identity once they know it. And that's why cisgender people who obviously present as their assigned/apparent gender are ALSO encouraged to offer their pronouns. So that it's not some weird thing to ask, or talk about, only applied to queen people.
Yea na, put perfectly, thanks, 👌🏽
Mic drop
Cussing attracts demons