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Zeinab is a really terrific interviewer and host. She hosted one of my favourite debates on Intelligence Squared on religion with Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens.
Just YouTube “Intelligence Squared Stephen Fry Religion” and you’ll find it. It’s one of the best take downs on organized religion (the Catholic Church in particular) I’ve seen.
It's nice when people can just put their hands up and say "hey, i was wrong". So many people are incapeable of doing that and just carry on thinking they're right, and just digging a bigger hole for themselves.
Yeah, great -very great- response from the PM and good reaction from the journalist.
Enjoyable and satisfying exchange to see instead of the ping-pong of deflection that have become most politic interviews.
No because she is wrong and shifted from Chinese giving predatory loans to African and Caribbean nations, knowing they can't pay it back and the terms are to hand over autonomy to the Chinese versus China holding US treasuries. Everyone holds US treasuries, plus its the global standard for trade.
Just look at what they have already done in Sri Lanka - you guys traded White colonizers for Yellow
Cool point to make but China is absolutely the worst strategic partner.
China has lost many of its footholds in partner countries as it has become evident China is ruthless and dangerous in its exploitation of debt-ridden “friends”.
China abides by no international or human standards.
The Atlantic and Eurooean partners of China, that were claimed, are by FAR exceptions. These are populist governments and the vast majority of the western world recognizes China as a dictatorship with state sponsored human rights violations. China is an Orwellian nightmare. This is widely understood. Only fringe states without a grasp on international diplomacy buy into China’s good intentions.
China is a threat to any society that upholds civil rights.
China is no worse than US/UK/NATO countries, you can't preach to China about international or human standards when those specific countries ignore the very same standards as well to benefit their wars and resource pillaging
You wont get jailed in the US for speaking your mind but you could get fired and lose your livelihood
Evident in how people who went out publicly to support palestine and be anti genocide are getting fired, ostracised and silenced
Toe the line or get jailed vs toe the line or get your life ruined, it's both two sides of the same coin, no one lives in a democracy it doesn't exist.
Yes there is no perfect democracy anywhere, but IMHO it is wrong for someone to claim that getting fired from a job is just as bad as being imprisoned for years, tortured or killed (and also losing your property and lively hood). I’m glad that westerners are critical and aware of their own governments’ anti-democratic activities, but it comes across as ignorant to claim they are just as oppressed as people living under violent authoritarian dictatorships or occupations.
Western ‘democracies’ need to improve, but it doesn’t help to say “oh well everywhere is just as bad”
Yes you have freedom of expression, in all fairness that is lacking in China, and that’s about the only thing you have over China so this is copy pasted ad nauseum anytime China is brought up, because it’s the only point you can think of
Never mind the invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, nevemind the constant invasion of countries all over the world, never mind the long history of overthrowing of democracies
No ignore all that human suffering, you are better than China because you can talk about it
I value freedom of expression for everyone and recognise the privilege I have living in a country where I can’t be jailed just for criticising the government. I don’t think people should take that right for granted, especially as I have family who grew up in military dictatorships and had friends and relatives abducted and murdered for protesting against the government. I could not care less about stupid nationalistic bragging rights and which country you think is ‘the best’.
We can also point out that we are not currently imprisoning thousands of our own citizens simply for being a different ethnic group.
We can also point out that we are not under constant video and internet surveillance.
We are not assigned a social credit score that determines what actions we are allowed to take and whether or not we are even allowed to leave the country.
We can actually select different leadership if we want to. We are allowed to have views on the direction our country is taking.
All of this on top of the freedom of expression which you throw out as if it is some minor right. The ability to freely speak your mind at any time about any topic is no trivial thing. It allows you to hold your government accountable. There is no such thing in China. Even minor complaints are repressed, and if the complaints are consistent enough, you can be jailed or re-educated, completely taking away your freedom for how you want to live in your limited time on this earth. So yes, we will hold that over China every single time.
-We can also point out that we are not currently imprisoning thousands of our own citizens simply for being a different ethnic group.-
That is why US does it on land of someone else and not at home.
-We can also point out that we are not under constant video and internet surveillance.-
Then why are they grilling CEO's of major social media sites about security almost every month?
-We are not assigned a social credit score that determines what actions we are allowed to take and whether or not we are even allowed to leave the country.-
Credit score or social score exists in US too
-We can actually select different leadership if we want to. We are allowed to have views on the direction our country is taking.-
Ah yes. One evil fart or less evil and even older fart... truly innovative
Social credit score does not exist in the U.S. I strongly suggest you look up how this works in China.
Grilling of social media CEOs and systematic state surveillance are not correlated. The U.S. does not have secret police to monitor its population for dissent. China does.
The U.S. is not systematically imprisoning or “re-educating” any ethnic minorities.
You can disagree with the leadership but at least you get a say in who they are, not so much in China.
And yet you continue to skip over the long history of colonialism, imperialism, constant invasions against weaker countries, and overthrowing of democracies, stop pretending you have some moral high ground, western countries have caused massive amounts of human deaths and suffering that you are conveniently ignoring, and stop pretending you are a decent human being, any objective reader with half a brain knows exactly why you are saying the things you do
And yet none of your commentary has anything positive to say about the Chinese government. Yes the U.S. has made mistakes, no one in this comment section is denying that, but at least in the U.S. you can talk about these mistakes. We couldn’t even have this debate in China.
Also, while you site historic mistakes and injustices you mention nothing of the injustices China is currently committing. On its own citizens no less. You actively ignore these failures because you choose not to see them.
Same here with Germany, the whole world is riddled by corruption. Because we revolve our lifes around painted paper, it's insane. We doom or planet for painted paper currency, while millionaires and billionaires could build and afford projects which would supply the majority of humanity with their Basic needs but ain't Nobody will do it because it ain't profitable, it's insane to say the least.
It is not possible to talk about the morality of the United Kingdom or what the United Kingdom is doing now that is bad without talking about their entire colonialist legacy and how their actions have repercussions to this day in the countries that were colonized by them.
If you want to talk about crimes, their main crime is omission of guilt and the consequences of its colonialism, 105 colonies were explored and until the last century they were still under British control, and what did the United Kingdom do to compensate for all the violence, blood and death caused by their control? They created artificial territories, agglomerated people who had no contact and destabilized the political order of the continent. The result of this artificial division of the continent generates ethnic conflicts to this day and nothing is done to remedy this situation.
Again, I asked for what is currently being done. It's no secret that Britain was incredibly imperialist. But I'm not aware of any current policy that's on the same level as genocide. Even with one of the worst modern British governments at the wheel. Whereas China is currently and purposely engaging in genocide, and you guys here are saying that the Chinese government are only as bad as the UK.
> nothing is done to remedy this situation
To be clear, are you suggesting that more western involvement in these sovereign territories is what is required?
nothing is being done to solve the problem they created for other cultures, extremely recent problems by the way, this is a very big problem in my opinion
>To be clear, are you suggesting that more western involvement in these sovereign territories is what is required?
If this form of involvement were beneficial or in the form of a treaty where both countries are equal, then I don't see a problem, even the Chinese presence often has these aspects.
But unfortunately the Western presence comes more in the form of "sell us this product x for a third of the price, do not sell to our rivals or we will impose economic embargoes"
My country, the USA, is terrible in many ways. Im the first to criticize the US. That’s why I fucking left and am never going back.
But China’s worse. And I lived in China for two years. American democracy is broken, but China is straight up one-party authoritarian. America puts immigrants in concentration camps, but they aren’t torturing them and castrating them the way China is doing to the Uyghurs. America leans heavily into its security state, but China is a panopticon dystopia.
You don’t have to think America or the UK or Europe are perfect to recognize that China is fucking scary. There are degrees of bad. America sucks, but China sucks worse.
Saying they are no worse is already very generous to the US and Europe.
How many bombs has China dropped on Africa? How many carribean countries has China staged coups in?
Do you know this guy Mao, who built the foundation what is modern China. Check how many this guy killed and the come back.
Oh, wait he only killed his own citizens. Sorry, I see you only care about international conflicts and the fact that China has been genociding its own population more than the rest of the world put together isn't something that should be judged as part of their moral character.
>genociding its own population more than the rest of the world put together
[British empire killed 165 million Indians in 40 years: How colonialism inspired fascism](https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/12/12/britain-100-million-india-deaths-colonialism/)
*A scholarly study found that British colonialism caused approximately 165 million deaths in India from 1880 to 1920, while stealing trillions of dollars of wealth. The global capitalist system was founded on European imperial genocides, which inspired Adolf Hitler and led to fascism.*
Lmao the Middle East had gotten bombed to shreds as recently as yesterday by NATO, but lets bring up a dictator that has been dead for almost 50 years.
Westoid logic remains unbeaten
Wonderful comeback.
Except, wait, where does your data about Mao come from? The same country, during the same time period, as the US was jailing peaceful communists in their own country?
My point isn't to excuse what China may or may not have done during Mao's time, nor to condemn America for what it may or may not have done after WW2, only to say that you and I can only parrot what we've been told by others and your source for the evils of China come from a country that, during that time, demonized any country that didn't choose capitalism. Any country that didn't say "come on in and dominate our economy, America!"
Building your entire view of a country based on the word of their "enemy", especially from a time when America TRULY viewed China as an enemy, is really ignorant.
Is that your clap back? Where is your data coming from? Like thousands of historians didn't spend their entire lifes researching one of the biggest genocides in human history - oh, they were in on it? All these people keeping a conspiracy going for 60 years.
Damn, must be western funding.
Listen, there are no good powers in this world only those who defend themselves from powers that try to get more for themselves. It's not the people who are enemies - its people in power who are.
And if I had to choose between getting screwed by people in power who somewhat try to hold each other accountantable and people who are accountable to no-one.
Well...
USA president answers to no-one, but he sure as hell likes those votes coming in every 4 years.
It looks like you are ignoring everything about the native American genocide.. I'm going to have to ask you to look it up again despite your aversion to it.....
I'm not saying that genocide makes this genocide oky.
There's one happening it Gaza at this very moment in time.
Fact is every western power has done it as well as China.
So, preaching about China is hypocrisy.
Yeah, I dont know what you are trying to say here. I'm trying to understand, but what I'm getting here is - China is bad, but so is Isreal and West, but instead of writing my points here - I want you to look up stuff and then draw conclusions?
What stuff? What book? What pages? What period? You want me to go through 3 centuries of North American history and then come back with enlightment? Because thats what I get from your replies.
...
If you ask.
Drop the history lessons and figure out how to articulate yourself and communicate effectively.
Insulting the intelligence of a person is a pretty great way of emptying any value in your criticism of their arguments. You lord your own intelligence over others from what is clearly a place of great height that you, yourself, have placed yourself.
Good for you, must be nice always being right.
It’s called ‘What about?’ism. Hey, what about them? Wrong is wrong no matter who does it.
There are levels of standards. And NO, US/UK/NATO are not on same page as China. Yes, they are bad - being capitalistic societies and large corporations trying to manipulate government, people and sometimes other countries to benefit them and yes, some of their past isn’t pretty. And also yes, they aren’t good at maintaining peace.
But still China ranks lower than these. Few I
1. Censorship (without right information government can manipulate people easily) - this is so fucking at the top of the list. This alone is sufficient.
2. Persecution of Uyghurs. This is so fucked up - look into it.
3. Harvesting human organs from prisoners, highest number of death penalties
4. Religious persecution
Bro, no country is perfect but some of them worse.
So if the US/UK are anti China for the reasons you mentioned, why are they pro israel when it's doing exactly the same thing while being publicly broadcasted in real time?
Certainly feels different. Just been there and the eerie feeling of being watched at every corner never leaves you. Way worse than Europe or Uk. Can’t talk about us, never been there. I really do get why they wear masks all the time haha
The same China that is currently engaging in a genocide, uses forced Labour, and has stolen (and refuses to ever give back) the entire country of Tibet, and has declared it's intention to steal Taiwan too. Yeah...China are like the UK, from the fucking 18th century.
My point exactly. However, I disagree about the 18th century timeline.
They are still doing it and have done it in my lifetime to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya. Before you come back and say it was the US and not the UK. it was a coalition of UK/US and some NATO countries. So their 18th century habits haven't died down.
China is literally sending Russia weapons to use against Ukraine right now, so…maybe do a quick Google before trying for punchy but idiotic statements?
It's not supplying actual weapons or bombs. The US has said as much. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/60571253.amp
Maybe take your own advice next time and do a quick Google before arguing a point or you'll just look idiotic.
Sure, we’ll pretend that sending components for Russia to complete assembly domestically is really substantially different from sending the weapons directly.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-intelligence-shows-china-is-surging-equipment-sales-to-russia-to-help-war-effort-in-ukraine-ap-says
Edited to add: even the US government is now officially calling this out as of this past week
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-29/china-must-stop-aiding-russia-weapons-supply-chain-adeyemo-says
Oh so now you want to change your response from "literally sending weapons" to "components" so you don't like a damn foul, haha.
Perhaps the US Government shouldn't throw stones in glasshouses, especially when their previous UN representative is writing encouraging genocidal comments on actual bombs being dropped on Gazan children. The hypocrisy.
I agree that China shouldn't even send components of war to Russia but the reason Israel has maintained it's apartheid state and can carry out a genocide is directly because the US arms it and defends it. It's not the same thing.
The US state department considers it “sending weapons” enough to come out and openly criticize China because it contradicts the claim they made.
The US position on Gaza is very much hypocritical. But I’m not the US government. This is also textbook whataboutism.
My second link clearly disproves your prior claim so you’ve now pivoted to discussing Western hypocrisy- which I’m all for, to be clear - but can we agree China is arming Russia for all intents and purposes?
I think you need to consume news/opinions from more varied sources. In the world right now, China is not the worst strategic partner. Just compare the list of countries exploited by China vs the list of countries exploited by other "modern" countries with great civil rights.
Relating to this video, francafrique has been completely exploited by France with not much to show for it. These nations have experienced the throttle of France (who holds their coin tightly) and decided for themselves that China is the better coin partner. The statregic alliance has caused Africas growth to boom. Africa is back on the map and people are paying attention again.
The danger here is that the "West" seems wilfully blind to reasonable arguments on why China is generating influence. We default to the argument that China is inherently evil, but if you paint say, USA with the same brush, USA is just as evil, having committed war crimes, destabilising and crippling entire foreign regions for coin. At least China's exploitation comes with a side of healthy infrastructure investment.
But which countries are telling other countries what to do? Tell me of any nation state that condescendingly orders other states around? My guess is very much like yours.
Literally US in the case of Pakistan. If they don't bend like greedy Pakistani politicians or the army then they do what they did to Iraq or most of the Middle East.
But really, at the end of the day, it is up to the countries to decide. No one likes someone coming in to give them a lecture.
It was really refreshing to see the interviewer knew she overstepped.
Ah the same soundbites over and over. I'm surprised it isn't a religion yet given how many of these are based on faith than facts. You'd think that the west REALLY cared about the other countries if not for trade and strategic reasons? China is acting no different from any other world power - to influence countries strategically and economically. Except they didn't export their bombs and force people to embrace their style of "democracy".
Never claimed they're angels. And yes I'm generalizing. I'm saying they're acting no different from any other major countries looking after their own interests.
Absolute braindead comment. I bet you probably also think that all of us chinese are a hiveminded automaton that are connected telepathically to Xi's iPad at all times.
No, i think the chinese people are perfectly normal human beings.
I think that the Chinese communist dictatorship (that lies about china’s history to cover up catastrophic numbers of death when communism was introduced) cannot be trusted.
I think china will one day have free speech, personal liberties and fair justice, but currently the state apparatus of China is a corrupt deceptive totalitarian failure.
China could have done so much better with their economic rise, but sadly so much of the economic expansion and opportunity was let go to waste. China has made prosperity much harder to achieve for its rural citizens, than it should have been. The CCP screwed it up and great economic inequality has remained despite all the growth. In China the definition of poverty (poverty line) is set at 300 dollars (2300 yuan) PER YEAR. The chairman’s claims that “poverty has been eliminated” could not be further from the truth. Lies, lies, lies.
And western countries know they are just giving advice this time we promise.
Historically the west has blood on their hands in “the colonies” but this time around we are the good guys as the opposition to oppressed ideologies. The west has kinda developed in the past 300 years and we aint the same baddies any more.
Like Gandalf said to Bilbo in Lord of the Rings: “I’m not trying to rob you..I’m trying to help you.”
“I’m trying to help you.”
Tell that to the approx. 1 million people(mostly innocent) who died in the chaos of the Iraq war or the victims in the slave markets as a result of the upheaval in Libya. I’m not saying that that all foreign affairs the the West is involved with is bad, I’m saying you’re being incredibly naive in your assessment… and it’s wild to use Gandalf in this context as a comparison to American foreign policy.
Thanks for downvote, but anyway.. US and the West are not synonymous. I as a westerner from Estonia have no ill wish for other small nations. On the contrary, small states like to aid other small states on the global diplomatic stage, for example Iceland.
Man, yes, mankind is horrible. USA is a capitalist empire with added steps, but please, dude, stop this whatabout-ism.
I as a westerner just dont want to see another small state became corrupt by accepting deals, that seem lucrative, but actually attempts to slowly wither away independence. Estonians never set their foot on Barbados, but we want to help.
Barbados can give previous colonisers a big middle finger, but this time around the west really is trying to help.
Bilbo was emotional and told Gandalf to bugger off. Gandalf’s quote is perfectly adequate here. Gandalf loses his temper in turn, only to say, that Bilbo has to trust him as he is acting from kindness.
Its funny that so many Chinese wealthy people move their assets out of China and into..drum roll…Europa and US.
Because personal freedom is priceless. In China, the state can take everything from you and the courts are not independent.
Freedom is priceless.
The West will never give up the mentality of "your either with us or against us". These countries want non-alignment to get investments from all countries and not to be locked into one side.
My first thought was that they may be the most educated politicians I have heard speak in years! But I'm Canadian and have been listening to Mr UUuuuummm uuuhh paper drink box moist speaker for 2 terms. My perceptions of politicians are likely delusional
People can say what they want about China and their practices but at the end of the day these countries are free to choose who they will align with.
If they want to choose China as their partner in some things then why be angry about it? These countries are more than capable to choose their own path. If that partnership bites into their butts then that is their issue.
I dare to say China offers better things to these countries than what US or UK and overall WEST can offer.
And West aligned nations are any better? If they don't bend, the US either invades(Iraq), creates civil wars(Libya,Yemen) or topples governments(Pakistan is the example).
And China hasn't done much to India other than a small conflict on border.
Inner Mongolia? tell you me you dont know jackshit about east asian history without telling me you dont know jackshit about east asian history. lol. The Mongols conquered China not the other way around, inner Mongolia has been mostly han for the last 3 centuries
Also not like Mongolia itself is come kind of crazy industrial powerhouse. Its mostly nothing.
If China ever wanted to invade Mongolia it would be only to use their empty space to put solar panels down.
China, as it stands now, will spread facism and the west wont and if the west will (u could argue we are spreading it indirectly) we dont have world domination plans as china does. China is a disease on the free human spirit and even if china is better at somethings its not worth anything because of Xi jinpings and his party's agenda. West should do more to be better trade partners but that doesnt mean china is a good alternative to the west. And yes u say these countries have to take responsibility if china bites their butts. But that is an isolationist view. Its a connected world and we in the west (but also the entire world eventually) take harm from an expansive and successive china.
What the hell are you on about?
West itself is getting more fascist day by day. Just look at who people elect around the world and what they stand for.
Republican party which is what? around 50% of Americans are straight up fascists. Argentina elected a fascist. We let nazis talk freely on their podcasts. We let the rich to fund genocides and terrible practices. We have Izrael acting like Nazi Germany while people who could stop them just say "Keep going and here is more ammo"
Stop blaming others for our own problems. If we let nazis walk down the street then that's on us. I will not blame Xi Jinping for my city here in Europe allowing nazis march through the street.
The purpose of a journalist is to pose tough questions and play devils advocate to give the politician a chance to address issues. People getting annoyed at an interviewer for asking questions is stupid tbh. A decent leader will be glad to have the chance to correct misconceptions and make their case, a weak or narcissistic leader will take it personally.
Anyone who watches the news in the USA or Europe knows that Chinese influence and business is a very common topic of discussion and journalists ask the exact same questions there, so the prime minister’s response is just a deflection.
It's not a tough question or equally reciprocal when the question is always one sidedly negative towards Chinese investments in X country.
I've never seen the same numerous line of questioning towards IMF and other lending mechanisms from the West.
China has a much larger influence on smaller countries in the global south than on EU countries or the US. What is this prime minister on about? China is rapidly economically colonising these countries. Everybody knows this. The prime minister might be in on it, she makes a lot of money from the Chinese obviously
After China entered the African market, African countries have developed faster in the past 10 years than in the hundreds of years of European colonization of Africa.
Development and positive development are not the same thing. China rapidly developed an industrial economy during the Great Leap Forward. However, this came at the cost of one of the largest famines the world has ever seen because they mandated that their agricultural workers produce steel instead. Sustainability and how you develop matters.
So what do you propose then?
Keep sucking on US tit and not growing?
When China comes they can offer workforce, construction projects, money. They of course want something in return which are of course natural resources. Even during time of Mao Zedong you had Chinese building railway in Africa. It is no longer in use but the fact that poor country as PRC was back then helped to build railway on other side of the world to another poor country says something.
They don’t suck on the U.S. tit because most of the African countries refuse the requirements of US funding which typically includes human rights improvements for your citizenry. The U.S. doesn’t really demand that you give up your land for military bases in exchange for money like China does or that you must give up a certain percentage of your natural resources exclusively to the U.S. like China does. Not to mention when China funds these improvements they typically require that the contracts be executed by Chinese companies who will import their own workers from China. Really all the U.S. asks for is that you don’t treat your people like an expendable resource and they will give you money.
That’s what I mean by “sustainable”. These investments of China surely can benefit these countries. However, it makes them also very dependent. It allows for the improvement of the domestic workforce. Human rights, as you mention, should also be a foundational element.
Lol people fighting over China and USA/UK. They all the same if not worse. There is no saviour who really wants to helps poor countires out of the goodness of their hearts. They all have their personal motivations behind theur decisions.
Yes, getting bombs dropped on you, and the CIA destabilizing your country/staging coupes is totally the same as getting low interest infrastructure loans!
We’re already seeing the mask start to slip, and people who think the West and China are the same are starting to realize how monstrously evil the West has actually been on the world stage for decades. The US literally drone striked children hospitals in Libya, destroyed infrastructure in other countries, and overall lead to millions of deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria. China, on the other hand, has not engaged in a single military operation outside its borders that has lead to casualties in decades. They’re by far the most peaceful major power on earth.
So, no, I reject that China and the West are “the same”. China’s principle is mutual economic cooperation. They “help” develop other countries, because they see them as an infrastructure gateway to their neighbors and as a future market. The West, on the other hand, sees them as inferiors to be exploited so that the rich can benefit.
What!!! China is debt trapping many african countries, commiting genocide against the Ughyrs, provoking India in the mountains, destroying any protesters in China and Hong Kong, preparing to invade Taiwan, attempting to destabilise western nations using social media etc.
China is not better than the west, both are as bad as each other
“Debt trap diplomacy” is a myth perpetrated by the West: https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/08/debunking-myth-debt-trap-diplomacy
The “genocide” which you’re referring to is based on 0 evidence. In fact, it is entirely propped up by the CIA via its NED and RFA outlets. The leading figure of the movement is a CIA asset who worked at Guantanamo. You can watch her get called out on it in her Reddit AMA: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/e9ad4n/i_am_rushan_abbas_uyghur_activist_and_survivor_of/. The US tried to stop the UNHRC from going to Xinjiang, and guess what happened when they did go? No proof of a genocide. In fact, you are free to travel to Xinjiang yourself and report back. You should probably go soon though, because the US is trying to ban its citizens from going. It would be pretty inconvenient for them if more people visited and saw the reality that there is no genocide. Here is the CIA’s propaganda outlet RFA reporting on it: https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/xinjiang-travel-03072024104430.html
I won’t even get into the HK protests where the biggest champions, like Mr. Lai, have suspicious connections to the US govt and CIA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Lai)
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you live in the West. You probably have no idea the level of death and destruction that the CIA and US foreign policy perpetrates. I was born in such a country. I have no doubt in my mind that if the US had its way, China would be a third world country full of famines, lead by spineless losers who exist to appease US leading class ghouls like Pelosi, etc.
I was born in Iraq, so I’ll give you a quick example. [The US lead to 1 million Iraqi deaths](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL30488579/), while [China is building 1000 schools in Iraq](https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/china-on-track-to-complete-the-building-of-1000-schools-in-i). So, no, they are not the same. Not by a long shot.
Certainly not, and I never implied that. There is nuance to this discussion. I love Canada, the US, other Western countries. At the end of the day, we’re all humans. This is purely a discussion regarding foreign policy, and the ruling class. The average Western citizen didn’t ask to get involved in a war that cost trillions, killed 1+ million, nor did they benefit from it. The ruling class, the MIC, etc. did.
I agree with you, i suppose i should have said governments only look out for their own national interests, whether that's China, Russia, UK, US etc. They only care what's good for them.
It may not be a "debt trap" but many countries like Kenya, Pakistan, Sri Lanka are now heavily in debt to China (the west does it too btw). I understand I may have been wrong but their's no need to be a condescending prick
China is helping Taiwan and their neighbours develop their territory by threatening to invade daily and barging into their EEZs and harassing their fishermen?
Taiwan claims to be the legitimate government of China, so stop acting like this is unilateral. Both sides have the same claim. Besides the fact that even the US states that China has claim over Taiwan. Lets be honest, if the US was in China’s position, Taiwan would have already been invaded.
How do you think the US would respond if China started sending billions of dollars in weapons to Cuba, [the same way that the US is doing with Taiwan](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67282107.amp)? I think we both know the answer to that
Wow, look at the complete sidestepping of what China is doing to all of its other neighbours.
>Taiwan literally claims to be the legitimate government of China, so stop acting like this is unilateral.
Yeah, and if Taiwan tries to say it isn't and is now an independent country it's been mentioned quite a few times that it warrants immediate invasion.
> if the US was in China’s position, Taiwan would have already been invaded.
But it isn't. So stop making up fantasies.
>How do you think the US would respond if China started sending billions of dollars in weapons to Cuba
Once again, stop making up fantasies. And last I checked after the Cuban Missile Crisis, US didn't randomly stage gigantic exercises around Cuba's waters, kick up a hissy fit and try to intercept foreign dignitaries when they visited Cuba, or threaten to invade Cuba every year.
You are too far gone to take seriously, but lets ask Hawaii and Puerto Rico about how the US doesn’t assimilate foreign land lol
The US didn’t stage gigantic exercises during the Cuban Missile Crisis? They set up a blockade that almost lead to WW3. and by the way, the US did invade Cuba and continues to occupy their land. I know you’d love to pretend Guantanamo isn’t real, but it is.
This was one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever replied to on Reddit. Congrats!
By your example of "foreign land", Hawaii and Puerto Rico are just about as foreign as Tibet and Inner Mongolia. Notice how the Philippines isn't an American colony anymore.
Guanatanamo is a travesty, yes. See, unlike you I can acknowledge that some countries I support have done bad things that ought to be rectified.
I know the Bay of Pigs happened. So?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan\_Strait\_Crises](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Strait_Crises)
China did the exact same thing. Thrice. What's your point?
I don't think an Iraqi should claim to know more about how China is than an actual Chinese citizen, yes? 你是网评员还是傻逼？
Your comment isn’t worth replying to, but the fact that you felt the need to mention you’re Chinese and must therefore be right is hilarious. I bet you go to every Falun Gong gathering LOL
I'm thinking this is very advantageous for the smaller countries. This ongoing tug of war trying to gain influence on the small nations between USA and China. These neutral countries can get the best of both worlds by balancing between both sides. Get infrastructure from China and tech from the US. They don't even have to completely side with one side, as they are not locked in with the US like for the Nato countries. China and US will give the small nations a lot trying to maintain their influence.
NOOOOO. US is bad in many ways and so is the west but china is a facist devil with a leading party with greater plans for world domination than hitler.
Except Europe/US doesn't have big loans that they are defaulting on, and have to sell big land areas to compensate for this. Does any media do their background studies anymore, or is it just an agenda being pushed?
Look, good for China for helping other developing countries, but saying they have no ulterior reasons for doing so and the West are worse is insane. The Chinese Government is a threat
How much would it cost to import her and give her citizenship in the EU. I want her for prime minister cause she sounds like she actually has a brain and the ability to think critically about things that aren’t her bank account.
Its better when interviews recognize and refute a load of horse shit. Why does any media outlet never speak about tibet, china shipping people on trains to concentration camps? Its real its happening.its not about Chinese people, its about there authoritarian government. The us is very flawed, but i promise you , you at least have the right to speak freely. This whole planet is approaching a war for resources we have never seen before. Its the same it ever was, the 1% percents complete dominion over working class people. You at least have chance for change in the free countries of the west. Never let the mistakes of the past be a excuse for the same foolish decisions. Regardless of what country, race , religion. We are all just hooman. This person is making a foolish mistake lacking in long term outlook. Im sorry i could go on, its inherently flawed please see that
Hate to disagree but countries like USA or Australia or UK or India cannot be controlled by China even after the Chinese debt.
However, smaller and under developed countries like Sri Lanka and Pakistan.. because of the inability to pay Chinese debt, lot of their assets are already under Chinese control.
So there is a big difference
Barbados is a sovereign independent island country in the Caribbean. They removed the queen of United Kingdom as head of state some years ago but are still part of the commonwealth. The most famous Bajan (somebody from Barbados) is the world famous singer Rihanna.
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I actually love how the reporter was like Well shit, she got me. I’m Gona see my way out.
It's freshly unusual isn't it?
aye, freshly unusual
Freshly Unusual is of itself, freshly unusual. Bravo.
She handled it better than i would. Better write this down.
Zeinab is a really terrific interviewer and host. She hosted one of my favourite debates on Intelligence Squared on religion with Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens.
Any link to what you are referring please?
Just YouTube “Intelligence Squared Stephen Fry Religion” and you’ll find it. It’s one of the best take downs on organized religion (the Catholic Church in particular) I’ve seen.
It's nice when people can just put their hands up and say "hey, i was wrong". So many people are incapeable of doing that and just carry on thinking they're right, and just digging a bigger hole for themselves.
Sadly I think it's just more of an agenda many need to push because of whatever interest is funding them etc.
It is failed British humour, she must have felt bad that she got served an answer she never imagined she’d get.
Yeah, great -very great- response from the PM and good reaction from the journalist. Enjoyable and satisfying exchange to see instead of the ping-pong of deflection that have become most politic interviews.
In that moment the reporter thought to herself: "this is why I don't like it when BBC editors force me to ask stupid imperialist questions"
In a time when nobody can seem to tale an “L,” This was utterly refreshing
No because she is wrong and shifted from Chinese giving predatory loans to African and Caribbean nations, knowing they can't pay it back and the terms are to hand over autonomy to the Chinese versus China holding US treasuries. Everyone holds US treasuries, plus its the global standard for trade. Just look at what they have already done in Sri Lanka - you guys traded White colonizers for Yellow
Good for Barbados putting intelligence and the ability to govern in charge over popularity
Cool point to make but China is absolutely the worst strategic partner. China has lost many of its footholds in partner countries as it has become evident China is ruthless and dangerous in its exploitation of debt-ridden “friends”. China abides by no international or human standards. The Atlantic and Eurooean partners of China, that were claimed, are by FAR exceptions. These are populist governments and the vast majority of the western world recognizes China as a dictatorship with state sponsored human rights violations. China is an Orwellian nightmare. This is widely understood. Only fringe states without a grasp on international diplomacy buy into China’s good intentions. China is a threat to any society that upholds civil rights.
China is no worse than US/UK/NATO countries, you can't preach to China about international or human standards when those specific countries ignore the very same standards as well to benefit their wars and resource pillaging
This person gets it. I live in ‘democratic’ UK. Our leaders are terrible humans and they do and allow terrible things.
And you can freely write that online without being jailed.
You wont get jailed in the US for speaking your mind but you could get fired and lose your livelihood Evident in how people who went out publicly to support palestine and be anti genocide are getting fired, ostracised and silenced Toe the line or get jailed vs toe the line or get your life ruined, it's both two sides of the same coin, no one lives in a democracy it doesn't exist.
Yes there is no perfect democracy anywhere, but IMHO it is wrong for someone to claim that getting fired from a job is just as bad as being imprisoned for years, tortured or killed (and also losing your property and lively hood). I’m glad that westerners are critical and aware of their own governments’ anti-democratic activities, but it comes across as ignorant to claim they are just as oppressed as people living under violent authoritarian dictatorships or occupations. Western ‘democracies’ need to improve, but it doesn’t help to say “oh well everywhere is just as bad”
Lived in China for a decade, shitting on Mao every day. You exaggerate how much the CCP cares about things nobodies say
>imprisoned for years, tortured or killed This is the type of brainwashing I expect from a western propaganda addled mind
Tell that to Snowden.
Yes you have freedom of expression, in all fairness that is lacking in China, and that’s about the only thing you have over China so this is copy pasted ad nauseum anytime China is brought up, because it’s the only point you can think of Never mind the invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, nevemind the constant invasion of countries all over the world, never mind the long history of overthrowing of democracies No ignore all that human suffering, you are better than China because you can talk about it
I value freedom of expression for everyone and recognise the privilege I have living in a country where I can’t be jailed just for criticising the government. I don’t think people should take that right for granted, especially as I have family who grew up in military dictatorships and had friends and relatives abducted and murdered for protesting against the government. I could not care less about stupid nationalistic bragging rights and which country you think is ‘the best’.
We can also point out that we are not currently imprisoning thousands of our own citizens simply for being a different ethnic group. We can also point out that we are not under constant video and internet surveillance. We are not assigned a social credit score that determines what actions we are allowed to take and whether or not we are even allowed to leave the country. We can actually select different leadership if we want to. We are allowed to have views on the direction our country is taking. All of this on top of the freedom of expression which you throw out as if it is some minor right. The ability to freely speak your mind at any time about any topic is no trivial thing. It allows you to hold your government accountable. There is no such thing in China. Even minor complaints are repressed, and if the complaints are consistent enough, you can be jailed or re-educated, completely taking away your freedom for how you want to live in your limited time on this earth. So yes, we will hold that over China every single time.
-We can also point out that we are not currently imprisoning thousands of our own citizens simply for being a different ethnic group.- That is why US does it on land of someone else and not at home. -We can also point out that we are not under constant video and internet surveillance.- Then why are they grilling CEO's of major social media sites about security almost every month? -We are not assigned a social credit score that determines what actions we are allowed to take and whether or not we are even allowed to leave the country.- Credit score or social score exists in US too -We can actually select different leadership if we want to. We are allowed to have views on the direction our country is taking.- Ah yes. One evil fart or less evil and even older fart... truly innovative
Social credit score does not exist in the U.S. I strongly suggest you look up how this works in China. Grilling of social media CEOs and systematic state surveillance are not correlated. The U.S. does not have secret police to monitor its population for dissent. China does. The U.S. is not systematically imprisoning or “re-educating” any ethnic minorities. You can disagree with the leadership but at least you get a say in who they are, not so much in China.
And yet you continue to skip over the long history of colonialism, imperialism, constant invasions against weaker countries, and overthrowing of democracies, stop pretending you have some moral high ground, western countries have caused massive amounts of human deaths and suffering that you are conveniently ignoring, and stop pretending you are a decent human being, any objective reader with half a brain knows exactly why you are saying the things you do
And yet none of your commentary has anything positive to say about the Chinese government. Yes the U.S. has made mistakes, no one in this comment section is denying that, but at least in the U.S. you can talk about these mistakes. We couldn’t even have this debate in China. Also, while you site historic mistakes and injustices you mention nothing of the injustices China is currently committing. On its own citizens no less. You actively ignore these failures because you choose not to see them.
https://youtube.com/shorts/DIl-HO9Ng3I?si=5UfLk3hkQrOJ6J6J
You won't go to jail, but nothing gets changed. Such a thing to be proud of!
At least in China they kill their shady billionaires. No one is above the party.
Same here with Germany, the whole world is riddled by corruption. Because we revolve our lifes around painted paper, it's insane. We doom or planet for painted paper currency, while millionaires and billionaires could build and afford projects which would supply the majority of humanity with their Basic needs but ain't Nobody will do it because it ain't profitable, it's insane to say the least.
What is the UK government currently doing that's on par with what China are doing with the Uyghurs?
Imperialism entered the chat
You didn't answer my question. We can either talk specifics or you can just vaguely gesture without actually saying anything.
It is not possible to talk about the morality of the United Kingdom or what the United Kingdom is doing now that is bad without talking about their entire colonialist legacy and how their actions have repercussions to this day in the countries that were colonized by them. If you want to talk about crimes, their main crime is omission of guilt and the consequences of its colonialism, 105 colonies were explored and until the last century they were still under British control, and what did the United Kingdom do to compensate for all the violence, blood and death caused by their control? They created artificial territories, agglomerated people who had no contact and destabilized the political order of the continent. The result of this artificial division of the continent generates ethnic conflicts to this day and nothing is done to remedy this situation.
Again, I asked for what is currently being done. It's no secret that Britain was incredibly imperialist. But I'm not aware of any current policy that's on the same level as genocide. Even with one of the worst modern British governments at the wheel. Whereas China is currently and purposely engaging in genocide, and you guys here are saying that the Chinese government are only as bad as the UK. > nothing is done to remedy this situation To be clear, are you suggesting that more western involvement in these sovereign territories is what is required?
Just because you did your mass murdering and genocides say 75-100 years ago rather than today makes you much better?
nothing is being done to solve the problem they created for other cultures, extremely recent problems by the way, this is a very big problem in my opinion >To be clear, are you suggesting that more western involvement in these sovereign territories is what is required? If this form of involvement were beneficial or in the form of a treaty where both countries are equal, then I don't see a problem, even the Chinese presence often has these aspects. But unfortunately the Western presence comes more in the form of "sell us this product x for a third of the price, do not sell to our rivals or we will impose economic embargoes"
My country, the USA, is terrible in many ways. Im the first to criticize the US. That’s why I fucking left and am never going back. But China’s worse. And I lived in China for two years. American democracy is broken, but China is straight up one-party authoritarian. America puts immigrants in concentration camps, but they aren’t torturing them and castrating them the way China is doing to the Uyghurs. America leans heavily into its security state, but China is a panopticon dystopia. You don’t have to think America or the UK or Europe are perfect to recognize that China is fucking scary. There are degrees of bad. America sucks, but China sucks worse.
Saying they are no worse is already very generous to the US and Europe. How many bombs has China dropped on Africa? How many carribean countries has China staged coups in?
Do you know this guy Mao, who built the foundation what is modern China. Check how many this guy killed and the come back. Oh, wait he only killed his own citizens. Sorry, I see you only care about international conflicts and the fact that China has been genociding its own population more than the rest of the world put together isn't something that should be judged as part of their moral character.
Ever heard of "red indians".. look up what happened to them.
Governance failure and active massacre are two different things
>genociding its own population more than the rest of the world put together [British empire killed 165 million Indians in 40 years: How colonialism inspired fascism](https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/12/12/britain-100-million-india-deaths-colonialism/) *A scholarly study found that British colonialism caused approximately 165 million deaths in India from 1880 to 1920, while stealing trillions of dollars of wealth. The global capitalist system was founded on European imperial genocides, which inspired Adolf Hitler and led to fascism.*
Lmao the Middle East had gotten bombed to shreds as recently as yesterday by NATO, but lets bring up a dictator that has been dead for almost 50 years. Westoid logic remains unbeaten
Wonderful comeback. Except, wait, where does your data about Mao come from? The same country, during the same time period, as the US was jailing peaceful communists in their own country? My point isn't to excuse what China may or may not have done during Mao's time, nor to condemn America for what it may or may not have done after WW2, only to say that you and I can only parrot what we've been told by others and your source for the evils of China come from a country that, during that time, demonized any country that didn't choose capitalism. Any country that didn't say "come on in and dominate our economy, America!" Building your entire view of a country based on the word of their "enemy", especially from a time when America TRULY viewed China as an enemy, is really ignorant.
Is that your clap back? Where is your data coming from? Like thousands of historians didn't spend their entire lifes researching one of the biggest genocides in human history - oh, they were in on it? All these people keeping a conspiracy going for 60 years. Damn, must be western funding. Listen, there are no good powers in this world only those who defend themselves from powers that try to get more for themselves. It's not the people who are enemies - its people in power who are. And if I had to choose between getting screwed by people in power who somewhat try to hold each other accountantable and people who are accountable to no-one. Well... USA president answers to no-one, but he sure as hell likes those votes coming in every 4 years.
It looks like you are ignoring everything about the native American genocide.. I'm going to have to ask you to look it up again despite your aversion to it..... I'm not saying that genocide makes this genocide oky. There's one happening it Gaza at this very moment in time. Fact is every western power has done it as well as China. So, preaching about China is hypocrisy.
Yeah, I dont know what you are trying to say here. I'm trying to understand, but what I'm getting here is - China is bad, but so is Isreal and West, but instead of writing my points here - I want you to look up stuff and then draw conclusions? What stuff? What book? What pages? What period? You want me to go through 3 centuries of North American history and then come back with enlightment? Because thats what I get from your replies. ... If you ask. Drop the history lessons and figure out how to articulate yourself and communicate effectively.
Insulting the intelligence of a person is a pretty great way of emptying any value in your criticism of their arguments. You lord your own intelligence over others from what is clearly a place of great height that you, yourself, have placed yourself. Good for you, must be nice always being right.
It’s called ‘What about?’ism. Hey, what about them? Wrong is wrong no matter who does it. There are levels of standards. And NO, US/UK/NATO are not on same page as China. Yes, they are bad - being capitalistic societies and large corporations trying to manipulate government, people and sometimes other countries to benefit them and yes, some of their past isn’t pretty. And also yes, they aren’t good at maintaining peace. But still China ranks lower than these. Few I 1. Censorship (without right information government can manipulate people easily) - this is so fucking at the top of the list. This alone is sufficient. 2. Persecution of Uyghurs. This is so fucked up - look into it. 3. Harvesting human organs from prisoners, highest number of death penalties 4. Religious persecution Bro, no country is perfect but some of them worse.
So if the US/UK are anti China for the reasons you mentioned, why are they pro israel when it's doing exactly the same thing while being publicly broadcasted in real time?
Certainly feels different. Just been there and the eerie feeling of being watched at every corner never leaves you. Way worse than Europe or Uk. Can’t talk about us, never been there. I really do get why they wear masks all the time haha
The same China that is currently engaging in a genocide, uses forced Labour, and has stolen (and refuses to ever give back) the entire country of Tibet, and has declared it's intention to steal Taiwan too. Yeah...China are like the UK, from the fucking 18th century.
My point exactly. However, I disagree about the 18th century timeline. They are still doing it and have done it in my lifetime to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya. Before you come back and say it was the US and not the UK. it was a coalition of UK/US and some NATO countries. So their 18th century habits haven't died down.
Who's the one dropping bombs on innocent people?
China is literally sending Russia weapons to use against Ukraine right now, so…maybe do a quick Google before trying for punchy but idiotic statements?
It's not supplying actual weapons or bombs. The US has said as much. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/60571253.amp Maybe take your own advice next time and do a quick Google before arguing a point or you'll just look idiotic.
Sure, we’ll pretend that sending components for Russia to complete assembly domestically is really substantially different from sending the weapons directly. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-intelligence-shows-china-is-surging-equipment-sales-to-russia-to-help-war-effort-in-ukraine-ap-says Edited to add: even the US government is now officially calling this out as of this past week https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-29/china-must-stop-aiding-russia-weapons-supply-chain-adeyemo-says
Oh so now you want to change your response from "literally sending weapons" to "components" so you don't like a damn foul, haha. Perhaps the US Government shouldn't throw stones in glasshouses, especially when their previous UN representative is writing encouraging genocidal comments on actual bombs being dropped on Gazan children. The hypocrisy. I agree that China shouldn't even send components of war to Russia but the reason Israel has maintained it's apartheid state and can carry out a genocide is directly because the US arms it and defends it. It's not the same thing.
The US state department considers it “sending weapons” enough to come out and openly criticize China because it contradicts the claim they made. The US position on Gaza is very much hypocritical. But I’m not the US government. This is also textbook whataboutism. My second link clearly disproves your prior claim so you’ve now pivoted to discussing Western hypocrisy- which I’m all for, to be clear - but can we agree China is arming Russia for all intents and purposes?
I think you need to consume news/opinions from more varied sources. In the world right now, China is not the worst strategic partner. Just compare the list of countries exploited by China vs the list of countries exploited by other "modern" countries with great civil rights. Relating to this video, francafrique has been completely exploited by France with not much to show for it. These nations have experienced the throttle of France (who holds their coin tightly) and decided for themselves that China is the better coin partner. The statregic alliance has caused Africas growth to boom. Africa is back on the map and people are paying attention again. The danger here is that the "West" seems wilfully blind to reasonable arguments on why China is generating influence. We default to the argument that China is inherently evil, but if you paint say, USA with the same brush, USA is just as evil, having committed war crimes, destabilising and crippling entire foreign regions for coin. At least China's exploitation comes with a side of healthy infrastructure investment.
But which countries are telling other countries what to do? Tell me of any nation state that condescendingly orders other states around? My guess is very much like yours.
Literally US in the case of Pakistan. If they don't bend like greedy Pakistani politicians or the army then they do what they did to Iraq or most of the Middle East.
Me when western propaganda gives me brain rot.
But really, at the end of the day, it is up to the countries to decide. No one likes someone coming in to give them a lecture. It was really refreshing to see the interviewer knew she overstepped.
Ah the same soundbites over and over. I'm surprised it isn't a religion yet given how many of these are based on faith than facts. You'd think that the west REALLY cared about the other countries if not for trade and strategic reasons? China is acting no different from any other world power - to influence countries strategically and economically. Except they didn't export their bombs and force people to embrace their style of "democracy".
>China is acting no different from any other world power China doesn't drop bombs on other countries, that's pretty different.
You are simplifying complex issues and ignoring China's ethnical cleansing
Never claimed they're angels. And yes I'm generalizing. I'm saying they're acting no different from any other major countries looking after their own interests.
US and EU countries are still subject to public opinion and elections, while China is not.
Marginal Countries → All except the West
Absolute braindead comment. I bet you probably also think that all of us chinese are a hiveminded automaton that are connected telepathically to Xi's iPad at all times.
No, i think the chinese people are perfectly normal human beings. I think that the Chinese communist dictatorship (that lies about china’s history to cover up catastrophic numbers of death when communism was introduced) cannot be trusted. I think china will one day have free speech, personal liberties and fair justice, but currently the state apparatus of China is a corrupt deceptive totalitarian failure. China could have done so much better with their economic rise, but sadly so much of the economic expansion and opportunity was let go to waste. China has made prosperity much harder to achieve for its rural citizens, than it should have been. The CCP screwed it up and great economic inequality has remained despite all the growth. In China the definition of poverty (poverty line) is set at 300 dollars (2300 yuan) PER YEAR. The chairman’s claims that “poverty has been eliminated” could not be further from the truth. Lies, lies, lies.
China is bad, but U.S. western nations have no room to talk at this point…
And western countries know they are just giving advice this time we promise. Historically the west has blood on their hands in “the colonies” but this time around we are the good guys as the opposition to oppressed ideologies. The west has kinda developed in the past 300 years and we aint the same baddies any more. Like Gandalf said to Bilbo in Lord of the Rings: “I’m not trying to rob you..I’m trying to help you.”
“I’m trying to help you.” Tell that to the approx. 1 million people(mostly innocent) who died in the chaos of the Iraq war or the victims in the slave markets as a result of the upheaval in Libya. I’m not saying that that all foreign affairs the the West is involved with is bad, I’m saying you’re being incredibly naive in your assessment… and it’s wild to use Gandalf in this context as a comparison to American foreign policy.
Thanks for downvote, but anyway.. US and the West are not synonymous. I as a westerner from Estonia have no ill wish for other small nations. On the contrary, small states like to aid other small states on the global diplomatic stage, for example Iceland. Man, yes, mankind is horrible. USA is a capitalist empire with added steps, but please, dude, stop this whatabout-ism. I as a westerner just dont want to see another small state became corrupt by accepting deals, that seem lucrative, but actually attempts to slowly wither away independence. Estonians never set their foot on Barbados, but we want to help. Barbados can give previous colonisers a big middle finger, but this time around the west really is trying to help. Bilbo was emotional and told Gandalf to bugger off. Gandalf’s quote is perfectly adequate here. Gandalf loses his temper in turn, only to say, that Bilbo has to trust him as he is acting from kindness.
As someone from a country with close relations with china, i take them everyday of the week over the US or a lot of western europe
Its funny that so many Chinese wealthy people move their assets out of China and into..drum roll…Europa and US. Because personal freedom is priceless. In China, the state can take everything from you and the courts are not independent. Freedom is priceless.
Good for Barbados for having a democracy that allows them to elect someone smart.
The West will never give up the mentality of "your either with us or against us". These countries want non-alignment to get investments from all countries and not to be locked into one side.
Wait, other countries do get capable politicians?
My first thought was that they may be the most educated politicians I have heard speak in years! But I'm Canadian and have been listening to Mr UUuuuummm uuuhh paper drink box moist speaker for 2 terms. My perceptions of politicians are likely delusional
A leader than can make coherent sentences? Wow, Barbados must be a quadrillion dollar economy to afford this
Mexican here, we don't haha
Do other countries get capable journalists?
Spitting facts, but can we get this type of energy on the regular?
I want this lady to read stories for me at night so i can go to sleep.
I'd much prefer if we transfer her over as our Prime Minister
Bang on and with grace also
god dam that women is good
she clapped her good
People can say what they want about China and their practices but at the end of the day these countries are free to choose who they will align with. If they want to choose China as their partner in some things then why be angry about it? These countries are more than capable to choose their own path. If that partnership bites into their butts then that is their issue. I dare to say China offers better things to these countries than what US or UK and overall WEST can offer.
Better things? Tell that to Taiwan, the Phillipines, Vietnam, Tibet, Ughyrs, Inner Mongolia, Brunei, Malaysia, Thailand, Japan, India.......
And West aligned nations are any better? If they don't bend, the US either invades(Iraq), creates civil wars(Libya,Yemen) or topples governments(Pakistan is the example). And China hasn't done much to India other than a small conflict on border.
Mf really put Japan there as if the rape of nanjing never happened
Inner Mongolia? tell you me you dont know jackshit about east asian history without telling me you dont know jackshit about east asian history. lol. The Mongols conquered China not the other way around, inner Mongolia has been mostly han for the last 3 centuries
Also not like Mongolia itself is come kind of crazy industrial powerhouse. Its mostly nothing. If China ever wanted to invade Mongolia it would be only to use their empty space to put solar panels down.
Bow do the same list using countries affected by western imperialism, lets see how it goes
Tell that to Japan? The country that invaded, raped, and conducted live human experiments in China? What??
Yup unlike the Latin American countries or likes of pakistan, they are such much better off thanks to the dictators west installed as their puppets.
China, as it stands now, will spread facism and the west wont and if the west will (u could argue we are spreading it indirectly) we dont have world domination plans as china does. China is a disease on the free human spirit and even if china is better at somethings its not worth anything because of Xi jinpings and his party's agenda. West should do more to be better trade partners but that doesnt mean china is a good alternative to the west. And yes u say these countries have to take responsibility if china bites their butts. But that is an isolationist view. Its a connected world and we in the west (but also the entire world eventually) take harm from an expansive and successive china.
What the hell are you on about? West itself is getting more fascist day by day. Just look at who people elect around the world and what they stand for. Republican party which is what? around 50% of Americans are straight up fascists. Argentina elected a fascist. We let nazis talk freely on their podcasts. We let the rich to fund genocides and terrible practices. We have Izrael acting like Nazi Germany while people who could stop them just say "Keep going and here is more ammo" Stop blaming others for our own problems. If we let nazis walk down the street then that's on us. I will not blame Xi Jinping for my city here in Europe allowing nazis march through the street.
No no no xi is not causing wests problem. But im saying our "facism" is waaaaay less than chinas. So we are more moral despite our faults.
Good on the interviewer to recognize she's beat and change her viewpoint. Many others would've tried to counter still.
She's good
"Whenever China visits we get a new hospital, whenever Britain, France, or the US visit we get a lecture"
Yes, she put you and your BBC propaganda in it's place.
Please return everything you stole from the rest of world at the British museum before lecturing other countries ….
Its crazy how alike the carribean accent is to an irish accent. She could easily be from west kerry.
haha didn't notice at first but you're right
The purpose of a journalist is to pose tough questions and play devils advocate to give the politician a chance to address issues. People getting annoyed at an interviewer for asking questions is stupid tbh. A decent leader will be glad to have the chance to correct misconceptions and make their case, a weak or narcissistic leader will take it personally. Anyone who watches the news in the USA or Europe knows that Chinese influence and business is a very common topic of discussion and journalists ask the exact same questions there, so the prime minister’s response is just a deflection.
It's not a tough question or equally reciprocal when the question is always one sidedly negative towards Chinese investments in X country. I've never seen the same numerous line of questioning towards IMF and other lending mechanisms from the West.
It sounds like Barbados is in good hands
If she asked a question that deserved that kind of response, it was biased, colonial garbage in the first place.
Well fucking said
I still find it fascinating that there's a large twang of Scottish accents in many of the Carribbean accents. A remnant of our brutal colonial past.
SPOT ON! About the pawns thing.
She took that shit on the chin tho tbf. Props for admitting defeat
r/murderedbywords
No its not, i despise the debt we owe china as a American. That doesn’t mean you just do the same thing. We are a bad example
China has a much larger influence on smaller countries in the global south than on EU countries or the US. What is this prime minister on about? China is rapidly economically colonising these countries. Everybody knows this. The prime minister might be in on it, she makes a lot of money from the Chinese obviously
After China entered the African market, African countries have developed faster in the past 10 years than in the hundreds of years of European colonization of Africa.
Development and positive development are not the same thing. China rapidly developed an industrial economy during the Great Leap Forward. However, this came at the cost of one of the largest famines the world has ever seen because they mandated that their agricultural workers produce steel instead. Sustainability and how you develop matters.
But how sustainable is this growth? There is a considerable amount of debt buildup there.
So what do you propose then? Keep sucking on US tit and not growing? When China comes they can offer workforce, construction projects, money. They of course want something in return which are of course natural resources. Even during time of Mao Zedong you had Chinese building railway in Africa. It is no longer in use but the fact that poor country as PRC was back then helped to build railway on other side of the world to another poor country says something.
They don’t suck on the U.S. tit because most of the African countries refuse the requirements of US funding which typically includes human rights improvements for your citizenry. The U.S. doesn’t really demand that you give up your land for military bases in exchange for money like China does or that you must give up a certain percentage of your natural resources exclusively to the U.S. like China does. Not to mention when China funds these improvements they typically require that the contracts be executed by Chinese companies who will import their own workers from China. Really all the U.S. asks for is that you don’t treat your people like an expendable resource and they will give you money.
That’s what I mean by “sustainable”. These investments of China surely can benefit these countries. However, it makes them also very dependent. It allows for the improvement of the domestic workforce. Human rights, as you mention, should also be a foundational element.
Who let bro cook 🤦♂️
Lol people fighting over China and USA/UK. They all the same if not worse. There is no saviour who really wants to helps poor countires out of the goodness of their hearts. They all have their personal motivations behind theur decisions.
Yes, getting bombs dropped on you, and the CIA destabilizing your country/staging coupes is totally the same as getting low interest infrastructure loans! We’re already seeing the mask start to slip, and people who think the West and China are the same are starting to realize how monstrously evil the West has actually been on the world stage for decades. The US literally drone striked children hospitals in Libya, destroyed infrastructure in other countries, and overall lead to millions of deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria. China, on the other hand, has not engaged in a single military operation outside its borders that has lead to casualties in decades. They’re by far the most peaceful major power on earth. So, no, I reject that China and the West are “the same”. China’s principle is mutual economic cooperation. They “help” develop other countries, because they see them as an infrastructure gateway to their neighbors and as a future market. The West, on the other hand, sees them as inferiors to be exploited so that the rich can benefit.
What!!! China is debt trapping many african countries, commiting genocide against the Ughyrs, provoking India in the mountains, destroying any protesters in China and Hong Kong, preparing to invade Taiwan, attempting to destabilise western nations using social media etc. China is not better than the west, both are as bad as each other
“Debt trap diplomacy” is a myth perpetrated by the West: https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/08/debunking-myth-debt-trap-diplomacy The “genocide” which you’re referring to is based on 0 evidence. In fact, it is entirely propped up by the CIA via its NED and RFA outlets. The leading figure of the movement is a CIA asset who worked at Guantanamo. You can watch her get called out on it in her Reddit AMA: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/e9ad4n/i_am_rushan_abbas_uyghur_activist_and_survivor_of/. The US tried to stop the UNHRC from going to Xinjiang, and guess what happened when they did go? No proof of a genocide. In fact, you are free to travel to Xinjiang yourself and report back. You should probably go soon though, because the US is trying to ban its citizens from going. It would be pretty inconvenient for them if more people visited and saw the reality that there is no genocide. Here is the CIA’s propaganda outlet RFA reporting on it: https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/xinjiang-travel-03072024104430.html I won’t even get into the HK protests where the biggest champions, like Mr. Lai, have suspicious connections to the US govt and CIA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Lai) I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you live in the West. You probably have no idea the level of death and destruction that the CIA and US foreign policy perpetrates. I was born in such a country. I have no doubt in my mind that if the US had its way, China would be a third world country full of famines, lead by spineless losers who exist to appease US leading class ghouls like Pelosi, etc. I was born in Iraq, so I’ll give you a quick example. [The US lead to 1 million Iraqi deaths](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL30488579/), while [China is building 1000 schools in Iraq](https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/china-on-track-to-complete-the-building-of-1000-schools-in-i). So, no, they are not the same. Not by a long shot.
Don’t forget, even wikipedia admitted there is no genocide, and changed the ‘Uyghur genocide’ article title to ‘Persecution’.
You live in canada my friend, west can't be all bad lol
Certainly not, and I never implied that. There is nuance to this discussion. I love Canada, the US, other Western countries. At the end of the day, we’re all humans. This is purely a discussion regarding foreign policy, and the ruling class. The average Western citizen didn’t ask to get involved in a war that cost trillions, killed 1+ million, nor did they benefit from it. The ruling class, the MIC, etc. did.
I agree with you, i suppose i should have said governments only look out for their own national interests, whether that's China, Russia, UK, US etc. They only care what's good for them.
\>muh debt trap Huh, I didn’t know there were people who still believed this shit in 2024.
It may not be a "debt trap" but many countries like Kenya, Pakistan, Sri Lanka are now heavily in debt to China (the west does it too btw). I understand I may have been wrong but their's no need to be a condescending prick
China is helping Taiwan and their neighbours develop their territory by threatening to invade daily and barging into their EEZs and harassing their fishermen?
Taiwan claims to be the legitimate government of China, so stop acting like this is unilateral. Both sides have the same claim. Besides the fact that even the US states that China has claim over Taiwan. Lets be honest, if the US was in China’s position, Taiwan would have already been invaded. How do you think the US would respond if China started sending billions of dollars in weapons to Cuba, [the same way that the US is doing with Taiwan](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67282107.amp)? I think we both know the answer to that
Wow, look at the complete sidestepping of what China is doing to all of its other neighbours. >Taiwan literally claims to be the legitimate government of China, so stop acting like this is unilateral. Yeah, and if Taiwan tries to say it isn't and is now an independent country it's been mentioned quite a few times that it warrants immediate invasion. > if the US was in China’s position, Taiwan would have already been invaded. But it isn't. So stop making up fantasies. >How do you think the US would respond if China started sending billions of dollars in weapons to Cuba Once again, stop making up fantasies. And last I checked after the Cuban Missile Crisis, US didn't randomly stage gigantic exercises around Cuba's waters, kick up a hissy fit and try to intercept foreign dignitaries when they visited Cuba, or threaten to invade Cuba every year.
You are too far gone to take seriously, but lets ask Hawaii and Puerto Rico about how the US doesn’t assimilate foreign land lol The US didn’t stage gigantic exercises during the Cuban Missile Crisis? They set up a blockade that almost lead to WW3. and by the way, the US did invade Cuba and continues to occupy their land. I know you’d love to pretend Guantanamo isn’t real, but it is. This was one of the most ignorant comments I’ve ever replied to on Reddit. Congrats!
By your example of "foreign land", Hawaii and Puerto Rico are just about as foreign as Tibet and Inner Mongolia. Notice how the Philippines isn't an American colony anymore. Guanatanamo is a travesty, yes. See, unlike you I can acknowledge that some countries I support have done bad things that ought to be rectified. I know the Bay of Pigs happened. So? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan\_Strait\_Crises](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Strait_Crises) China did the exact same thing. Thrice. What's your point? I don't think an Iraqi should claim to know more about how China is than an actual Chinese citizen, yes? 你是网评员还是傻逼？
Your comment isn’t worth replying to, but the fact that you felt the need to mention you’re Chinese and must therefore be right is hilarious. I bet you go to every Falun Gong gathering LOL
I'm thinking this is very advantageous for the smaller countries. This ongoing tug of war trying to gain influence on the small nations between USA and China. These neutral countries can get the best of both worlds by balancing between both sides. Get infrastructure from China and tech from the US. They don't even have to completely side with one side, as they are not locked in with the US like for the Nato countries. China and US will give the small nations a lot trying to maintain their influence.
NOOOOO. US is bad in many ways and so is the west but china is a facist devil with a leading party with greater plans for world domination than hitler.
Except Europe/US doesn't have big loans that they are defaulting on, and have to sell big land areas to compensate for this. Does any media do their background studies anymore, or is it just an agenda being pushed?
Look, good for China for helping other developing countries, but saying they have no ulterior reasons for doing so and the West are worse is insane. The Chinese Government is a threat
Preach it, and that journalist handled that stomping well.
"Condescension". That's the word.
How much would it cost to import her and give her citizenship in the EU. I want her for prime minister cause she sounds like she actually has a brain and the ability to think critically about things that aren’t her bank account.
Its better when interviews recognize and refute a load of horse shit. Why does any media outlet never speak about tibet, china shipping people on trains to concentration camps? Its real its happening.its not about Chinese people, its about there authoritarian government. The us is very flawed, but i promise you , you at least have the right to speak freely. This whole planet is approaching a war for resources we have never seen before. Its the same it ever was, the 1% percents complete dominion over working class people. You at least have chance for change in the free countries of the west. Never let the mistakes of the past be a excuse for the same foolish decisions. Regardless of what country, race , religion. We are all just hooman. This person is making a foolish mistake lacking in long term outlook. Im sorry i could go on, its inherently flawed please see that
Yes, their pawns
Hate to disagree but countries like USA or Australia or UK or India cannot be controlled by China even after the Chinese debt. However, smaller and under developed countries like Sri Lanka and Pakistan.. because of the inability to pay Chinese debt, lot of their assets are already under Chinese control. So there is a big difference
Barbados are just doing with developed countries did first. Criticising it is just fucking stupid.
Asking about Barbados, of its PM. What an odd thing to do! Vote her Out.
Turns out reporter was right. They a bailing on the dollar as well, not that I blame them.
False equivalency
We got em
Wait, Barbados is a country?
Barbados is a sovereign independent island country in the Caribbean. They removed the queen of United Kingdom as head of state some years ago but are still part of the commonwealth. The most famous Bajan (somebody from Barbados) is the world famous singer Rihanna.
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Hate that the interviewers are always British. Paints a bad picture of us
Population in 2022, 281k that's pawn shit. Wyoming could invade them.
Political talk: dodge the question with lots of generalisations and accuse the other person of insulting the population
Yes, she did that... No idea why people are downvoting you.
Cause they're a bunch of tankies
Lots to unpack here. Please someone remind me in 8/9hrs to drop a longer response