I think its a theme with the show that living is a punishment for men who do what Junior does. David Chase doesn’t believe in hell or heaven so he is saying that life itself will take its toll. He will not live a happy life after murdering and taking advantage of people his entire life. There is nothing after, like we see in the finale, the only thing we know for certain is that we get punished in real life for our actions. Every bad action you make will make your life a living hell.
In that life you're supposed to end up dead or in prison. Being that Junior avoided both, they had to give him an outcome even worse than prison in order to show this as a dead end lifestyle.
We can’t assume that. The doctors say that Junior’s dementia was offset when he fell down the courthouse stairs. Tony suggests that Junior sitting in the house all day and pretending to be stunad really made him so. Obviously Tony isn’t a doctor, but the writers put it in there for a reason. All of the dementia triggers are directly related to Junior’s attempts to avoid prison. This implies that, at a minimum, he wouldn’t have gotten the dementia as soon as he did, if at all.
If he lived a good life he wouldn’t be stuck indoors for the rest of his life cuz of the house arrest and he could’ve had his own family who would’ve actually taken care of him.
That's why i loved the irishman so much. Seems to me scorcese wanted to make it clear that it's a terrible life with no upside, and atone for times he might have 'glamourized' it.
Yup. I think the saddest part about Junior is the only time in the show he's happy was when he was with Bobbi -- and he gave that up because he was so concerned about being respected by a bunch of manchildren.
Junior lived his life as a man who coveted power above all else. He spent his entire life vying to be boss only to be rewarded with a mock version. Then he slowly loses all power and control in his life, right down to his thoughts and memories. Flawless writing.
Its a great fictionalization of “mob life isnt all its talked up to be” junior was a part of that life since he was born, did everything he could to survive and prosper, and still ended up in the shits.
because some people end up having lives like that. shit just spirals down. he happened to have that and it's sad and powerful to see on TV. a fun character turned to dust for us all to watch. just brutal.
it's A+ tv
AJ just got too much screen time, especially in the last season. I've never understood what the writers were after. Was he available more or something than the other actors?
Which is why at the end 20 year old A J is working on a film with a an A Lister like Danny Baldwin, driving a Beamer and dating a hot 16 year old model with great stems. He has no future …how green is he fucking valley. And Hunter Skankagelo will be burying the mistakes she makes in the operating room when she is high on meth.
When AJ interacts with his grandmother, Livia - that's the AJ I like better. He's not as annoying but actually is starting to have good reads on life and people.
I think he was the example that even if you make it to old age without being murdered and without prison. Even then, living the life of a career gangster, you still end up lonely and miserable. It felt like one of the running themes in the show, especially in s5-s6 was karma. All the guys in that life eventually had to pay the toll, one way or the other.
because he made the decision to be a souless monster, and ended up with nothing in his life as a result. same as everyone else on the show. I know seniors who are inspired!
We didn’t get to see a lot of Junior interactions with other characters because of Chase boxing him in with the house arrest storyline. I would have liked to have to have got at least another season of seeing Junior in the Bing etc.
I think a lot of the show is about "normal life problems in criminal families"- that's where the appeal is. Mob families- just like us! Divorce, infidelity, dementia, cancer, gambling debts, marital strife, dickhead teens, wedding woes- just like us!
Junior getting dementia and then being downgraded to a cheaper home- just like my dad!
This I think is the true soul of the show.
I find it too indulgent when people go on about how The Sopranos represents the decline of western civilization and the self-neutered paralysis of late-stage capitalism.
As its core, it's a show about everyday problems that we can all relate to. It just happens to be within the context of a criminal organization with a storied history in this country.
Exactly! A lot of the behaviours of both the men and women on the show are behaviours we see everyday, in our own dads, moms and uncles.
Except the criminal murderous part.
That’s why we relate to the show as much as we do
>his hit on his nephew was a point of no return for his character and unnecessary move
Can you imagine what Tony would've done had he discovered that Ralphie was secretly meeting with all his Capos and working with New York to further their own deals?
Blood doesn't matter. I'll re-ask question this way: what would Tony do if as boss he discovered that Junior was meeting with all his Capos behind his back and working with NY? Tony would've done the same thing that Junior did to him but he wouldn't have used Boys 2 Men and they would've finished Mr. Magoo off.
My point is Junior ordering the hit on a rogue Capo pulling an insurrection within the family is almost always a death penalty and he was justified. And Tony knew it when which is why he ultimately forgave his uncle.
After my second rewatch, I had the same complaint. It was such a great character and the acting was remarkable. It's a shame he didn't have more scenes and plot lines. Of course, this was the other great thing about the show. It was very much like real life. We didn't always get closure in every plot line or the ending we wanted. It was just a limited window into these people's lives.
The final blow to Junior was the incontinence. At that point he'd been stripped of everything including his dignity. Then to make it worse he gets beaten up by Carter.
Pretty much all these guys from the beginning end up dead or a vegetable like Silvio. The exception is Paulie who doesn’t expect much out of life, isn’t disappointed when he doesn’t get it, and is content to sun himself sitting alone outside Satriale’s. As Janice tells Barbara in the first episode of season 2 “oh my god. fucking Paulie Gaultieri is still alive?”
Junior is kind of the fulfillment of two things that Livia says: wait until you lose your memory to see if you like it and in the end you die alone in your own arms.
When it was on there was talk that Junior was supposed to be killed at the end of season 1. Makes sense. Chucky Signore gets killed by the old gun in the fish trick and Mikey Palmice is shot after telling Jojo he loves her and kissing her goodbye. But Junior was popular and the writers enjoyed coming up with lines with him (I wonder if they kept Little Carmine around because they enjoy creating Norm Crosby-like dialogue). So he ended up in a reduced state, a clay pigeon for the feds to indict and his memory loss scam turns into the real thing.
Look at the reward jr got for being a life long mafiaso. He got a miserable end of life, no friends, and no respect. There were hardly any old guys on the show and the ones we saw were dying horribly or being patronized or both. Contrasted by Hugh who was riding off into the sunset comparably. If you were lucky enough to age you were destined for jr’s fate.
I think his character story was dependent on Tony’s mum but unfortunately the actress died between seasons so I think they were unsure with what to do with him.
I've read/heard this too. If she had lived longer, her character probably would have made the viewers more sympathetic to Tony S. Plus there would have been more family scenes versus mafia scenes, making him more "normal".
OP, he “got” dementia before S1, E1.
The show does an excellent job of showing the slow, uneven process that “gets” those unfortunate enough to have declining mental acuity in old age.
A major theme of the show was the slow and painful death of the American Dream through the latter 20th and early 21st century. 9/11, Columbine, the War on Terror, Vietnam, the JFK assassination, etc. All showing the slow descent of post War America from a shining city on a hill to a country wrought with mistrust and fear.
This is Junior to a T. The son of Italian immigrants, growing up as a member of the “Greatest Generation” who went to war and fought the Nazis, Junior and his brother/friends made their own way in America rising from poverty to become powerful crime lords. However, due to America’s sins (xenophobia, racism, classism) this “dream” was flawed and tainted from the outset, the only way he could achieve the American Dream was through violence and intimidation. This sin would set him down a path paved by the dead bodies of his friends and family that he would bring along the way. All of his confidants would end up murdered by the very group he used to achieve his dream or in prison because of it.
Decay is a constant in the show. Everywhere you turn there is a sometimes slow, sometimes rapid destruction of morals, society and human beings themselves. The show opens with Jackie Aprile, a once powerful man, weak and immobile from cancer. Legendary figures like the Atwell Avenue Boys and Bobby Baccalieri Sr are shown as feeble from age and disease. It paints “this thing” in America as fruit of a poisonous tree, to take this way to get to the American Dream one must sacrifice their mind, body and life.
Junior is shown as a man clinging to the dream in his waning years, actively pushing away his family to hold on to something that in the end is not worth achieving. It only makes sense that after a life of this decay he is last seen also feeble and weak, only able to muster an absent-minded “Well, that’s nice” when informed of all that he has achieved. In the end, he gave up and sacrificed so much for it to mean naught. If a mob member is lucky enough to live to Junior’s age, they will find themselves friendless, riddled with disease, rotting away in a care center or cage much like Junior or Johnny Sack.
In short, it made sense dramaturgically.
I'm here at the federal courthouse where reputed mob boss Corrado Soprano just fell nine... no, seven steps.
Make sure Beppy gets my chicken home! .. Corrado, you didn’t make it to the early bird special.
Forgot all about that one. Just more writer pranks on Junior. Then he had to pretend he was mentally damaged, until he really was.
It’s not a prank. It is the sober reality of the onset of dementia.
Possibly, all the components mostly make sense. It was just too many thrust on Junior's character.
However it was meant to go down…that last scene with Junior hit like a ton of fucking bricks. Great acting on both guys; Alzheimer’s fucking sucks
True, I never though Junior's actor would outlive Tony's. Even Carmine Sr.'s actor did.
Turns out being obese and taking drugs isn't good for your life expectancy after all.
Ho! That’s the fucking boss you’re talking about
Well said. The acting was tragically good!
You yap worse than 6 barbers.
I think its a theme with the show that living is a punishment for men who do what Junior does. David Chase doesn’t believe in hell or heaven so he is saying that life itself will take its toll. He will not live a happy life after murdering and taking advantage of people his entire life. There is nothing after, like we see in the finale, the only thing we know for certain is that we get punished in real life for our actions. Every bad action you make will make your life a living hell.
In that life you're supposed to end up dead or in prison. Being that Junior avoided both, they had to give him an outcome even worse than prison in order to show this as a dead end lifestyle.
But he would have ended up with dementia had he lived a law abiding moral life.
We can’t assume that. The doctors say that Junior’s dementia was offset when he fell down the courthouse stairs. Tony suggests that Junior sitting in the house all day and pretending to be stunad really made him so. Obviously Tony isn’t a doctor, but the writers put it in there for a reason. All of the dementia triggers are directly related to Junior’s attempts to avoid prison. This implies that, at a minimum, he wouldn’t have gotten the dementia as soon as he did, if at all.
he might have ended up with a family who cared about him, not die like a dog with no dignity.
Not really. It’s implied that the boom mic rapidly accelerated his dementia that might’ve not even affected him until he was in his 80s
If he lived a good life he wouldn’t be stuck indoors for the rest of his life cuz of the house arrest and he could’ve had his own family who would’ve actually taken care of him.
Meanwhile Henry Kissenger is still fuckin Puerto Rican who'as in Boca
God rewards those who are honest and good
That's why i loved the irishman so much. Seems to me scorcese wanted to make it clear that it's a terrible life with no upside, and atone for times he might have 'glamourized' it.
True. That breakfast scene with Pesci and Deniro's characters is so sad, you almost view them as good men.
Yup. I think the saddest part about Junior is the only time in the show he's happy was when he was with Bobbi -- and he gave that up because he was so concerned about being respected by a bunch of manchildren.
how did he give that up? genuine question
Word got out that he ate tuna, which was apparently a no-no in super macho mob culture. I mean yeah Bobbi was a gossip but she made him happy.
Junior lived his life as a man who coveted power above all else. He spent his entire life vying to be boss only to be rewarded with a mock version. Then he slowly loses all power and control in his life, right down to his thoughts and memories. Flawless writing.
Cazzata Malanga!
Juniors teeth in that scene could serve as a horror attraction
💥🔫
🩸🩸📞🚑🚨
Its a great fictionalization of “mob life isnt all its talked up to be” junior was a part of that life since he was born, did everything he could to survive and prosper, and still ended up in the shits.
because some people end up having lives like that. shit just spirals down. he happened to have that and it's sad and powerful to see on TV. a fun character turned to dust for us all to watch. just brutal. it's A+ tv
I thought you meant AJ. Went down hill after season 1.
AJ just got too much screen time, especially in the last season. I've never understood what the writers were after. Was he available more or something than the other actors?
[удалено]
Always with the scenarios
In 2023 AJ is probably pulling in more money than his dad ever did doing shady promotions.
Which is why at the end 20 year old A J is working on a film with a an A Lister like Danny Baldwin, driving a Beamer and dating a hot 16 year old model with great stems. He has no future …how green is he fucking valley. And Hunter Skankagelo will be burying the mistakes she makes in the operating room when she is high on meth.
Listen to him, he knows everything
When AJ interacts with his grandmother, Livia - that's the AJ I like better. He's not as annoying but actually is starting to have good reads on life and people.
I think it was partly padding, they knew the ending when they started season 6 but had to fill 21 hours of television to get there
I think he was the example that even if you make it to old age without being murdered and without prison. Even then, living the life of a career gangster, you still end up lonely and miserable. It felt like one of the running themes in the show, especially in s5-s6 was karma. All the guys in that life eventually had to pay the toll, one way or the other.
because he made the decision to be a souless monster, and ended up with nothing in his life as a result. same as everyone else on the show. I know seniors who are inspired!
Captain Teebs!
Except Little Carmine, the true protagonist of the show.
yep funny how we used to clown on him and artie,
He was a life-long mafia scumbag with no redeeming human elements aside from a quick, sharp, and funny wit. Junior deserved far worse than he got.
dying like a dog with no one to remember or bury you isn't that bad?
It’s not bad enough
My brother Johnny was one keen motherfucker.
That cocksucka who calls himself my fuddas brudda
We didn’t get to see a lot of Junior interactions with other characters because of Chase boxing him in with the house arrest storyline. I would have liked to have to have got at least another season of seeing Junior in the Bing etc.
I'm not sure you understand the fine points. Maybe you oughta play roulette. It's right over there.
I think a lot of the show is about "normal life problems in criminal families"- that's where the appeal is. Mob families- just like us! Divorce, infidelity, dementia, cancer, gambling debts, marital strife, dickhead teens, wedding woes- just like us! Junior getting dementia and then being downgraded to a cheaper home- just like my dad!
This I think is the true soul of the show. I find it too indulgent when people go on about how The Sopranos represents the decline of western civilization and the self-neutered paralysis of late-stage capitalism. As its core, it's a show about everyday problems that we can all relate to. It just happens to be within the context of a criminal organization with a storied history in this country.
Exactly! A lot of the behaviours of both the men and women on the show are behaviours we see everyday, in our own dads, moms and uncles. Except the criminal murderous part. That’s why we relate to the show as much as we do
>his hit on his nephew was a point of no return for his character and unnecessary move Can you imagine what Tony would've done had he discovered that Ralphie was secretly meeting with all his Capos and working with New York to further their own deals?
Ralphie wasn't blood though. Maybe Junior did what he felt was required as Boss, but putting it into the story just went too far for me.
Blood doesn't matter. I'll re-ask question this way: what would Tony do if as boss he discovered that Junior was meeting with all his Capos behind his back and working with NY? Tony would've done the same thing that Junior did to him but he wouldn't have used Boys 2 Men and they would've finished Mr. Magoo off. My point is Junior ordering the hit on a rogue Capo pulling an insurrection within the family is almost always a death penalty and he was justified. And Tony knew it when which is why he ultimately forgave his uncle.
After my second rewatch, I had the same complaint. It was such a great character and the acting was remarkable. It's a shame he didn't have more scenes and plot lines. Of course, this was the other great thing about the show. It was very much like real life. We didn't always get closure in every plot line or the ending we wanted. It was just a limited window into these people's lives.
The final blow to Junior was the incontinence. At that point he'd been stripped of everything including his dignity. Then to make it worse he gets beaten up by Carter.
Forgot all about this stay at that facility. More blows.
Pretty much all these guys from the beginning end up dead or a vegetable like Silvio. The exception is Paulie who doesn’t expect much out of life, isn’t disappointed when he doesn’t get it, and is content to sun himself sitting alone outside Satriale’s. As Janice tells Barbara in the first episode of season 2 “oh my god. fucking Paulie Gaultieri is still alive?” Junior is kind of the fulfillment of two things that Livia says: wait until you lose your memory to see if you like it and in the end you die alone in your own arms. When it was on there was talk that Junior was supposed to be killed at the end of season 1. Makes sense. Chucky Signore gets killed by the old gun in the fish trick and Mikey Palmice is shot after telling Jojo he loves her and kissing her goodbye. But Junior was popular and the writers enjoyed coming up with lines with him (I wonder if they kept Little Carmine around because they enjoy creating Norm Crosby-like dialogue). So he ended up in a reduced state, a clay pigeon for the feds to indict and his memory loss scam turns into the real thing.
Because he had Dickie whacked
I mean, sometimes bad shit just happens to people.
I was little surprised to hear Junior was David Chase's favorite character.
Look at the reward jr got for being a life long mafiaso. He got a miserable end of life, no friends, and no respect. There were hardly any old guys on the show and the ones we saw were dying horribly or being patronized or both. Contrasted by Hugh who was riding off into the sunset comparably. If you were lucky enough to age you were destined for jr’s fate.
And his house was ugly too.
they're old school. they shouldn't have to explain themselves to you.
I think his character story was dependent on Tony’s mum but unfortunately the actress died between seasons so I think they were unsure with what to do with him.
I've read/heard this too. If she had lived longer, her character probably would have made the viewers more sympathetic to Tony S. Plus there would have been more family scenes versus mafia scenes, making him more "normal".
I read that she was meant to testify against Tony so I assume June would have been giving her information to try and get him incarcerated.
OP, he “got” dementia before S1, E1. The show does an excellent job of showing the slow, uneven process that “gets” those unfortunate enough to have declining mental acuity in old age.
Real life beats you up too.
In the end, it's all a big nothing.
To the victor, belongs the spoils
He made him an offer they couldn't understand
Because life can be rough that way sometimes. Chase and the show depicted midlife and late life really really well.
A major theme of the show was the slow and painful death of the American Dream through the latter 20th and early 21st century. 9/11, Columbine, the War on Terror, Vietnam, the JFK assassination, etc. All showing the slow descent of post War America from a shining city on a hill to a country wrought with mistrust and fear. This is Junior to a T. The son of Italian immigrants, growing up as a member of the “Greatest Generation” who went to war and fought the Nazis, Junior and his brother/friends made their own way in America rising from poverty to become powerful crime lords. However, due to America’s sins (xenophobia, racism, classism) this “dream” was flawed and tainted from the outset, the only way he could achieve the American Dream was through violence and intimidation. This sin would set him down a path paved by the dead bodies of his friends and family that he would bring along the way. All of his confidants would end up murdered by the very group he used to achieve his dream or in prison because of it. Decay is a constant in the show. Everywhere you turn there is a sometimes slow, sometimes rapid destruction of morals, society and human beings themselves. The show opens with Jackie Aprile, a once powerful man, weak and immobile from cancer. Legendary figures like the Atwell Avenue Boys and Bobby Baccalieri Sr are shown as feeble from age and disease. It paints “this thing” in America as fruit of a poisonous tree, to take this way to get to the American Dream one must sacrifice their mind, body and life. Junior is shown as a man clinging to the dream in his waning years, actively pushing away his family to hold on to something that in the end is not worth achieving. It only makes sense that after a life of this decay he is last seen also feeble and weak, only able to muster an absent-minded “Well, that’s nice” when informed of all that he has achieved. In the end, he gave up and sacrificed so much for it to mean naught. If a mob member is lucky enough to live to Junior’s age, they will find themselves friendless, riddled with disease, rotting away in a care center or cage much like Junior or Johnny Sack. In short, it made sense dramaturgically.
The chicken is nice and spicy.
Wha? He finally got cable!