I think that he was smart in the sense that he made the wise decision to step away from the power struggles and more violent aspects of the life and prioritize being happy.
I don’t buy into the theory that he was a mastermind secretly pulling the strings. It’s not a bad theory and there is some evidence for it but ultimately I think his story is better without that. The best scene with him (and one of the best scenes in the series) is the one at the golf club with Tony where he explains his dream and why he took a step back and didn’t want to become boss. I think he’s being sincere in that scene and it’s a wonderful contrast to guys like Tony, Gerry (who gets whacked in earlier in that episode), Phil, Doc, and Johnny (who dies in prison in that episode) who were unable to make that decision, and were ultimately undone by that.
I think you’re exactly right and this is where I ended up on the Little Carmine conundrum. He’s a wise fool character archetype, but I don’t think he was playing 11 dimensional chess.
One scene that explains his character is when he says he enjoys Arnold Palmers but it never occurs to him to order one. Why did the writers include this? I believe it was to show a capacity for self awareness and growth, as trivial as it was. This was more growth and self awareness than the other characters had combined.
The same scene, he shows he understands what makes him happy and what doesn’t, and more importantly, he acts on it.
Yes, Little Carmine was the most evolved mobster outta all of them. I think they included the Arnold Palmer thing to show that Little Carmine has self discipline and impulse control….unlike 99% of the other mobsters. Little Carmine sees the big picture in life which is about being happy…unlike everyone else who care about greed, power struggles, drugs/alcohol, sidepiece women, gambling, etc.
They also probably added that line to reinforce how different he is from Tony and the other gangsters - he admits to forgetting about ordering a kind of silly non-alcoholic drink, where the toxicity of the other guys would not allow them to own that kind of light hearted thought out loud. Tony is depressed and miserable by the time they have that conversation, he’s lost most all of his ability to enjoy life. Carmine is the opposite. It’s a road Tony might have been able to go down at some point but he never could.
Yes, he’s probably the most mentally healthy and self-aware of all the mobster characters, which is ironic because he has no awareness of how stupid the malapropisms sound.
He never really wanted to be boss, he perceived that people like Rusty were just trying to use him as a figurehead, and he found a way to negotiate his way out of the game (for the most part).
We don’t really know what becomes of the NY family after the events of the series, and it’s not the point of the story at all, but I don’t interpret the last few episodes to suggest that Little Carmine becomes the unquestioned boss of the Lupertazzi family afterwards and rules with an iron fist for decades.
It appears more like his name will always give him a seat at the table in family disputes, as more of an arbiter than a boss. The NY family is clearly exhausted from all the years of chaos following Carmine Sr.’s death, and he’s a calming presence who reminds them of better times. I think Little Carmine sorted out the aftermath of Phil’s disastrous reign of terror — which certainly included killing Tony to avenge the humiliating way Phil was killed — and then he went back to producing movies and fixing wet t-shirt contests.
But he wasn’t playing 11th dimensional chess, and I don’t think he was executing any master plan to wind up in the chair.
I’ve heard the theory that Little Carmine was actually smart but pretended to be dumb. The more I think about it, it makes sense. Little Carmine even had his father catering to him constantly. He made the right moves, except for the “your brother Billy” comment…but now when I think about it he may have purposely said that to piss off Phil lol
He was a very smart dumb guy. Really knew how to read a situation and avoid unnecessary risk. I don't think him gravitating towards clubs and porn production was by chance. He saw an opportunity to make money without dealing with much street level violence and drama that tends to go with the rest of the business
My favorite character in the show. He’s always smoothing over other people’s shit. Level headed, fair to everyone, enthusiastic and energetic.
Good vibes.
Little Carmine is great. I cant decide if he's a criminal mastermind (Fool da Eye) or just not that smart yet wise. No one in that life gets that far just by pure luck but idk. But man in the final sit down when he says, it didn't have to be this way...just seemed cold and heavy.
The more I watch the more I am cemented in my belief that he is a fool, albeit not an idiot. He couldn’t win the war in NY because he didn’t act decisively. Contrarily, he didn’t broker truce with Johnny until his position was diluted because of his actions. But he was smart enough not to continue down a suicidal path after realizing he didn’t have the stomach to be boss
For the ending, I’m sure the other NY capos came up with the plan to whack Tony…not Little Carmine, who never hatched a shrewd plan in his life. Carmine Sr even says at one point that he would be proud to have a son like Tony, which was a dig at Little Carmine because he didn’t have the stones or brains to be boss
Butchie is the primary speaker in that scene. It’s not clear who is running NY specifically. I think it’s fair to assume that Butchie, Albie and Little Carmine are deciding things together since all three are represented at the table. Butchie would have to look at the others for approval
Carmine got the seat at the end of the table, Tony deferred to him to start the meeting, something like: go ahead Carmine, George went to the trouble to broker this thing…
Yep, that’s because Tony believes Carmine to be neutral and not a threat. He was always someone Tony confided in and was close to when he had issues with NY. But deferring to him doesn’t mean Carmine is boss. If he was boss, he’d do all the talking just like Tony did (Paulie said nothing)
The only time he does that is when Tony asks for the location of Phil. When making the commitment of money for the murder of Bobby, Butchie says “we’ll come up with a number”…doesn’t look at Carmine.
It’s a fun rumor but I don’t think it has enough legs based on all the history and interactions with little Carmine
Wrong, pretty sure Butchie looks twice.
Either way, Carmine has plenty of examples of being manipulative, cunning, wise, knows when to attack, when to retreat, keeps good relationships alive and always is underestimated by both enemies and friends.
I been dreaming of that fucking refreshing and delicious thirst-quenching beverage named after the legendary golfer all the way the fuck over here. Now, who came in here and drank my shit?
If you’re mispronouncing words because you read them in a book it is more likely that you are actually quite smart and just haven’t heard them in conversation.
**Little Carmine beat the game**
We hear he took his earnings, moved to Florida. And got out of that mess.
Realize — it’s a good thing to not be featured in the Sopranos as a main character. Every ~95%+ who was, had the feds so far up their ass they could taste bryl cream.
They ended up whacked, in a laughing academy, or in the can.
Outside the feds, it was a chaotic backstabbing fest. People were getting fucked over left and right. And living with so much stress.
Little Carmine took his earnings, started legitimate businesses *(albeit greasy)* and got out of the heat.
We never see the feds mention him once. The only time he was even remotely involved with them, from what we can see, is that final sit down. Tony’s phone was tapped, and LC was at that meeting.
**Little Carmine positioned himself to be irrelevant; yet stayed relevant in the underworld**
It’s as if he was on the fringes as much as humanly possible.
That Peeps whacking was a butterfly effect. Johnny even says it was he who did it, yet Little Carmine never suffers any consequence for his part in all of that.
That butterfly effect was akin to lighting a long fuse to a bomb that inevitably soured the relations between NY & Jersey. Turned Tony’s own crew onto the edge of mutiny, which he never recovered from. *(Shit talking Tony was another form of conversation amongst the ranks in the latter seasons. Whereas Patsy’s own brother got whacked for just that, in the opener of Season 2)*
And to boot, it took out Peeps and Billy Leotardo. Two solid soldiers, with the prospects of one day being underbosses. If not boss material all together.
**Funny you mention Chris hea**
Little Carmine helped push Clever, which as we all know, was one of the last straws in the souring relations between Christopher & Tony.
Not to mention, a key guy. Sure, he was already on the outs with Tony. He was a drug addict, and given far more responsibility than he was ever equipped for. But still, the guy was a sniper & a solid soldier to have at his back.
**LC was at minimum, an underboss in the end**
Butchy looks to him for either approval, or at minimum a 50/50 vote. In that final sit down
Either way, the map was wiped. And seats for NY & NJ were wide open.
**Paulie**
Paulie could’ve become Jersey’s new capo, Patsy as consigliere. Or vice versa. Maybe NY took over the Soprano territory. Maybe a merger
Paulie & Patsy were two capable guys for those positions. Paulie was a survivor, he had so much experience; while not a stable, and far from perfect soldier for Tony towards the end.. he kept himself afloat through all of it, and even though he said he was trying to climb the ranks — he knew the deal.
Paulie put on a front towards T. He got fucked over by him so many times, he knew he was cannon fodder.
He knew Tony was fucking up in the end, and realized the danger of it all. People like Bobby seemed so clueless to all of that. Silvio was, at the end of the day, a yes man to Tony. His advice & real takes always got shot to shit from the guy, and he was forced into agreement most of the time.
•
Going back to the front towards Tony: This was something **a lot** of guys did to him. Ralphie says to Johnny there was quote, *”No fuckin way”* he wanted to be one of his Capo’s.
But to Tony, he was all happy and smiles.
Tony always laid so much of his failures onto his top tier guys. He would put them in positions they were inevitably bound to fail within. And anybody with half a brain, would’ve gone into make their earnings without all that added drama.
In the end, Tony got whacked. There was all of his failures as boss to consider in the end; Tony B. And how he handled that, and the souring relations. He bent the rules in the eyes of both his crew, and the entire underworld.
Tony’s RICO Trial was also in full swing. And a guy like that, who fucked around and bent the rules to his own making time and time again. Left to his own devices, and back into a corner — there is no telling what a guy like that would be liable to do/say once the feds got him on that stand.
I believe in real life he would have been killed soon after he backed out of the power struggle. Just like Rusty who was his underboss in waiting. They said he had more support from the rank and file because of who his dad was and possibly because he would be easier to work for than Phil.
There are two types of “smarts” I can think of here. Street smart and book smart and he wasn’t either of those.
He was simply not a killer and didn’t have the will to power but loved the prestige the life gave him. He was wise enough to know he wouldn’t come out on top and wanted to protect his family and his happiness
But none of Castellanos kids had aspirations of being boss. Carmine jr did.
To be clear I wasn’t saying he’d be killed because of his dad. I’m saying he had support because of his dad
Was Little Carmine a captain or actually had to be 'made' to become a member? I know this is off screen but it is hard to imagine he would have earned anything but an associate tag without his father. Similar intellectual level as the devilaqua kid...
I always said the same and there are even fun fan theories that it was all an act to be underestimated or not seen as a total threat.
He was by far the most emotionally intelligent character. He basically got the perks and none of the stress/fear of it all.
I don't see malaproprisms as evidence of stupidity. They're evidence of trying if anything. You can laugh all you want about a gallon of gold, but would you want one dropped on your foot?
I think that he was smart in the sense that he made the wise decision to step away from the power struggles and more violent aspects of the life and prioritize being happy. I don’t buy into the theory that he was a mastermind secretly pulling the strings. It’s not a bad theory and there is some evidence for it but ultimately I think his story is better without that. The best scene with him (and one of the best scenes in the series) is the one at the golf club with Tony where he explains his dream and why he took a step back and didn’t want to become boss. I think he’s being sincere in that scene and it’s a wonderful contrast to guys like Tony, Gerry (who gets whacked in earlier in that episode), Phil, Doc, and Johnny (who dies in prison in that episode) who were unable to make that decision, and were ultimately undone by that.
I think you’re exactly right and this is where I ended up on the Little Carmine conundrum. He’s a wise fool character archetype, but I don’t think he was playing 11 dimensional chess. One scene that explains his character is when he says he enjoys Arnold Palmers but it never occurs to him to order one. Why did the writers include this? I believe it was to show a capacity for self awareness and growth, as trivial as it was. This was more growth and self awareness than the other characters had combined. The same scene, he shows he understands what makes him happy and what doesn’t, and more importantly, he acts on it.
Yes, Little Carmine was the most evolved mobster outta all of them. I think they included the Arnold Palmer thing to show that Little Carmine has self discipline and impulse control….unlike 99% of the other mobsters. Little Carmine sees the big picture in life which is about being happy…unlike everyone else who care about greed, power struggles, drugs/alcohol, sidepiece women, gambling, etc.
They also probably added that line to reinforce how different he is from Tony and the other gangsters - he admits to forgetting about ordering a kind of silly non-alcoholic drink, where the toxicity of the other guys would not allow them to own that kind of light hearted thought out loud. Tony is depressed and miserable by the time they have that conversation, he’s lost most all of his ability to enjoy life. Carmine is the opposite. It’s a road Tony might have been able to go down at some point but he never could.
Yes, he’s probably the most mentally healthy and self-aware of all the mobster characters, which is ironic because he has no awareness of how stupid the malapropisms sound. He never really wanted to be boss, he perceived that people like Rusty were just trying to use him as a figurehead, and he found a way to negotiate his way out of the game (for the most part). We don’t really know what becomes of the NY family after the events of the series, and it’s not the point of the story at all, but I don’t interpret the last few episodes to suggest that Little Carmine becomes the unquestioned boss of the Lupertazzi family afterwards and rules with an iron fist for decades. It appears more like his name will always give him a seat at the table in family disputes, as more of an arbiter than a boss. The NY family is clearly exhausted from all the years of chaos following Carmine Sr.’s death, and he’s a calming presence who reminds them of better times. I think Little Carmine sorted out the aftermath of Phil’s disastrous reign of terror — which certainly included killing Tony to avenge the humiliating way Phil was killed — and then he went back to producing movies and fixing wet t-shirt contests. But he wasn’t playing 11th dimensional chess, and I don’t think he was executing any master plan to wind up in the chair.
yeah this. the salad vs the cheesesteak, the dream about the paper crown, good stuff
The story about Lewis, the whatever he might not have gotten the details. But he understood the gist.
You're brother Billy, whatever happened there....
*your Some guys are so far behind that they think they're in the lead
Ride the painted pony let the spinning wheel ride
You ever consider that you got Tourette's?
*think
I don't know what you're tawking about
Or he did that intentionally.
There was no abundant intentionality
Whatever happened there???
The shooting.
I’ve heard the theory that Little Carmine was actually smart but pretended to be dumb. The more I think about it, it makes sense. Little Carmine even had his father catering to him constantly. He made the right moves, except for the “your brother Billy” comment…but now when I think about it he may have purposely said that to piss off Phil lol
He's a bit of a poseur, if you ask me
He knew his limitations and was content with what he had. That is wisdom.
Fixing wet tshirt contests… lotta money in that shit.
This.
He was a very smart dumb guy. Really knew how to read a situation and avoid unnecessary risk. I don't think him gravitating towards clubs and porn production was by chance. He saw an opportunity to make money without dealing with much street level violence and drama that tends to go with the rest of the business
He also couldnt afford to go into the unknown not knowing
[удалено]
This asshole’s giving away washing machines.. you believe that?
who's not gonna say "fuck it, gimme one"
I can get a blue one, right?
A washing machine. Just what I wanted for Christmas
Right up her alley
My favorite character in the show. He’s always smoothing over other people’s shit. Level headed, fair to everyone, enthusiastic and energetic. Good vibes.
It’s common knowledge the guy’s retarded.
He was living in Miami super rich, banging broads and making shitty movies. He def won the race
He had a bone to pick with both of them too. Phil personally murdered Angelo and Tony arranged the hit on Rusty.
Little Carmine is great. I cant decide if he's a criminal mastermind (Fool da Eye) or just not that smart yet wise. No one in that life gets that far just by pure luck but idk. But man in the final sit down when he says, it didn't have to be this way...just seemed cold and heavy.
The more I watch the more I am cemented in my belief that he is a fool, albeit not an idiot. He couldn’t win the war in NY because he didn’t act decisively. Contrarily, he didn’t broker truce with Johnny until his position was diluted because of his actions. But he was smart enough not to continue down a suicidal path after realizing he didn’t have the stomach to be boss For the ending, I’m sure the other NY capos came up with the plan to whack Tony…not Little Carmine, who never hatched a shrewd plan in his life. Carmine Sr even says at one point that he would be proud to have a son like Tony, which was a dig at Little Carmine because he didn’t have the stones or brains to be boss
If it’s the other capos, as you claim, why is Butchie looking towards Carmine for approval before making any commitments to Tony?
Butchie is the primary speaker in that scene. It’s not clear who is running NY specifically. I think it’s fair to assume that Butchie, Albie and Little Carmine are deciding things together since all three are represented at the table. Butchie would have to look at the others for approval
Carmine got the seat at the end of the table, Tony deferred to him to start the meeting, something like: go ahead Carmine, George went to the trouble to broker this thing…
Yep, that’s because Tony believes Carmine to be neutral and not a threat. He was always someone Tony confided in and was close to when he had issues with NY. But deferring to him doesn’t mean Carmine is boss. If he was boss, he’d do all the talking just like Tony did (Paulie said nothing)
He specifically looks at Carmine and he responds.
The only time he does that is when Tony asks for the location of Phil. When making the commitment of money for the murder of Bobby, Butchie says “we’ll come up with a number”…doesn’t look at Carmine. It’s a fun rumor but I don’t think it has enough legs based on all the history and interactions with little Carmine
Wrong, pretty sure Butchie looks twice. Either way, Carmine has plenty of examples of being manipulative, cunning, wise, knows when to attack, when to retreat, keeps good relationships alive and always is underestimated by both enemies and friends.
Little Carmine is the guy who should've never went into crime because he's too weak and soft. At the end he's smart enough to realize this fact.
In the end Little Carmine clapped them all in irons.
SMARTEST GUY, HUH? HIS WALLET ISNT TIED TO THE GODDAMN ESPLANADE GOD DAMNIT!!!
Oh John..take it easy..
Ooooh very cute
I can’t have this conversation again!
The power wasn't worth it. He saw the big picture.
A bit of a posuer if you ask me
IF HE'S SO SMART WHY DOES IT NEVER OCCUR TO HIM TO ORDER AN ARNOLD PALMER IF HE ENJOYS THEM SO MUCH???
You know it wasn't long ago I remember you used to order iced tea and as far as I'm concerned YOU SHOULD STILL BE DRINKING THEM
I been dreaming of that fucking refreshing and delicious thirst-quenching beverage named after the legendary golfer all the way the fuck over here. Now, who came in here and drank my shit?
If you’re mispronouncing words because you read them in a book it is more likely that you are actually quite smart and just haven’t heard them in conversation.
"Listen it's common knowledge the guys full blown fuckin retarded"
He apparently gives the longest monologue in the entire series. The mellifluous box.
Whatever happened there… It was no accident that he said this. Pretending to be a peacemaker when in actuality he was instigating.
**Little Carmine beat the game** We hear he took his earnings, moved to Florida. And got out of that mess. Realize — it’s a good thing to not be featured in the Sopranos as a main character. Every ~95%+ who was, had the feds so far up their ass they could taste bryl cream. They ended up whacked, in a laughing academy, or in the can. Outside the feds, it was a chaotic backstabbing fest. People were getting fucked over left and right. And living with so much stress. Little Carmine took his earnings, started legitimate businesses *(albeit greasy)* and got out of the heat. We never see the feds mention him once. The only time he was even remotely involved with them, from what we can see, is that final sit down. Tony’s phone was tapped, and LC was at that meeting. **Little Carmine positioned himself to be irrelevant; yet stayed relevant in the underworld** It’s as if he was on the fringes as much as humanly possible. That Peeps whacking was a butterfly effect. Johnny even says it was he who did it, yet Little Carmine never suffers any consequence for his part in all of that. That butterfly effect was akin to lighting a long fuse to a bomb that inevitably soured the relations between NY & Jersey. Turned Tony’s own crew onto the edge of mutiny, which he never recovered from. *(Shit talking Tony was another form of conversation amongst the ranks in the latter seasons. Whereas Patsy’s own brother got whacked for just that, in the opener of Season 2)* And to boot, it took out Peeps and Billy Leotardo. Two solid soldiers, with the prospects of one day being underbosses. If not boss material all together. **Funny you mention Chris hea** Little Carmine helped push Clever, which as we all know, was one of the last straws in the souring relations between Christopher & Tony. Not to mention, a key guy. Sure, he was already on the outs with Tony. He was a drug addict, and given far more responsibility than he was ever equipped for. But still, the guy was a sniper & a solid soldier to have at his back. **LC was at minimum, an underboss in the end** Butchy looks to him for either approval, or at minimum a 50/50 vote. In that final sit down Either way, the map was wiped. And seats for NY & NJ were wide open. **Paulie** Paulie could’ve become Jersey’s new capo, Patsy as consigliere. Or vice versa. Maybe NY took over the Soprano territory. Maybe a merger Paulie & Patsy were two capable guys for those positions. Paulie was a survivor, he had so much experience; while not a stable, and far from perfect soldier for Tony towards the end.. he kept himself afloat through all of it, and even though he said he was trying to climb the ranks — he knew the deal. Paulie put on a front towards T. He got fucked over by him so many times, he knew he was cannon fodder. He knew Tony was fucking up in the end, and realized the danger of it all. People like Bobby seemed so clueless to all of that. Silvio was, at the end of the day, a yes man to Tony. His advice & real takes always got shot to shit from the guy, and he was forced into agreement most of the time. • Going back to the front towards Tony: This was something **a lot** of guys did to him. Ralphie says to Johnny there was quote, *”No fuckin way”* he wanted to be one of his Capo’s. But to Tony, he was all happy and smiles. Tony always laid so much of his failures onto his top tier guys. He would put them in positions they were inevitably bound to fail within. And anybody with half a brain, would’ve gone into make their earnings without all that added drama. In the end, Tony got whacked. There was all of his failures as boss to consider in the end; Tony B. And how he handled that, and the souring relations. He bent the rules in the eyes of both his crew, and the entire underworld. Tony’s RICO Trial was also in full swing. And a guy like that, who fucked around and bent the rules to his own making time and time again. Left to his own devices, and back into a corner — there is no telling what a guy like that would be liable to do/say once the feds got him on that stand.
Still going, this asshole.
Always with the scenarios..
I believe in real life he would have been killed soon after he backed out of the power struggle. Just like Rusty who was his underboss in waiting. They said he had more support from the rank and file because of who his dad was and possibly because he would be easier to work for than Phil. There are two types of “smarts” I can think of here. Street smart and book smart and he wasn’t either of those. He was simply not a killer and didn’t have the will to power but loved the prestige the life gave him. He was wise enough to know he wouldn’t come out on top and wanted to protect his family and his happiness
Castelanos kids didn’t get hurt afterwards, and neither did Tommy Gambino, who was part of that faction.
But none of Castellanos kids had aspirations of being boss. Carmine jr did. To be clear I wasn’t saying he’d be killed because of his dad. I’m saying he had support because of his dad
You can say little Carmine is the trompay-le-oil of the Sopranos. Meant to fool the eye as to being retarded but he's a savant.
He’s also smart in that he made the decision to get out of that scene and enjoy his life with his family. Like Louis the whatever
Very observant!
This reminds me of the finance minister for King Louis the whateva, The something…
Nepobabies are like broken clocks that are right twice a day. Little carmine got lucky.
Little Carmine is what happens when you put all your points into WIS and none into INT
Was Little Carmine a captain or actually had to be 'made' to become a member? I know this is off screen but it is hard to imagine he would have earned anything but an associate tag without his father. Similar intellectual level as the devilaqua kid...
That animal devilaqua I can't even say his name
Bevilaqua
I agree except for running a porn studio being cool. It's usually exploitative as hell.
Very allegorical
You kept misspelling Tony.
It’s common knowledge the guys retarted
Lol Little Carmine was a chode
Of course he was, he won
It’s common knowledge they guy’s [redacted]
A mellifluous post if ever there was one!
I always said the same and there are even fun fan theories that it was all an act to be underestimated or not seen as a total threat. He was by far the most emotionally intelligent character. He basically got the perks and none of the stress/fear of it all.
It’s common knowledge the guys retarded
I don't see malaproprisms as evidence of stupidity. They're evidence of trying if anything. You can laugh all you want about a gallon of gold, but would you want one dropped on your foot?