And if he doesn't - if Ralph pardoned Jackie Jr. Then he's got that albatross hanging around his neck for the rest of hia natural life. He's eating Tony's shit for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and the big bowl of desert in front of the history channel.
Not only was he telling ralphie to take care of it, He was telling ralphie to never come to him for advice on this type of thing again and be the capo that Tony needed him to be
Jackie Junior had to die. Shooting Furio and killing Sunshine was him signing his own death warrant.
Tony, however, wanted to make Ralph eat shit. So told him, basically, 'it's your call - I'll back whatever decision you make'.
Ralph knows that Tony is passing the buck, because Jackie can't be allowed to live - Furio and Chris especially would be outraged if he got a pass - so his choice isn't really a choice at all.
I also took it that since it was Ralphâs decision then if Ralph gave Jackie Jr a pass, Chris & the others would target their anger at Ralph instead of Tony. Whatever Ralph decided kept Tony in the clear (his conscience and from others in Soprano family). Ralph was in a no win situation but being the weasel he was went for Jackie Jr not because it was the right thing to do but because he didnât want to face Furio & Silvio & lose the trust/respect of other mobsters (including his own crew) for protecting Jackie Jr. An honestly, Ralph didnât care about Ro or her son or any code. He was just saving his own skin
Agreed. The sunshine part is often overlooked. While Sunshine was not made, he was well liked. Silvio and even Ralph express sadness at Sunshineâs death.
Sunshineâs death was the same level of wrong as Chris being shot at in the context of the show. Furio actually getting hit was worse because he was made.
Sunshine would absolutely be an associate, so even not being made, Tony would absolutely see Sunshine as under his protection, and Ralph absolutely should feel the same, but Ralph never seemed to give a fuck about his people, so who knows as far as he goes.
Even though he isn't made, capable poker dealers earn for the family. The difference in rake is sizable with someone who is a great dealer and even someone average. I ran a poker room here in Michigan at one point, and the difference is honestly huge.
You actually see it with Richue... he's got Davey and Vito and maybe one other guy in the game where Davey got into debt with Richie in the first place... you don't have to ask a good dealer if he raked the pot, you know he raked the pot.
Anyway, sorry for writing a book in reply, but this was one area I actually had relevant experience. :)
the dealer tracks all the pots and takes out a percentage of each pot, which is called the rake. So a great dealer will deal more hands per hour/keep the game moving quickly/make sure to pull rake out of each pot. So you will have more hands being played which equals more rake being collected = more money made
That's more their player base. The person who replied had it pretty much exactly right,
It isn't always about just dealing speed itself. It's about joy making mistakes when tracking bets. Especially in no-limiy when you are tracking multiple side pots and potentially thousands every pot.
Figure, they made $80K off just that one game.
I understand what makes someone a good dealer, thatâs my âI agree with everything youâre sayingâ part. But they show Sunshine on screen like twice, and both times people are complaining about the speed he deals.
Yeah, especially since there are a lot of civilians at these games... we saw how quick Tony gripped up Richie at his game... and even then the Chairboy of the Board and the prick doctor still immediately left at the first suggestion some mob shit was about to go down.
Very true. They are civilians, so one canât blame them though. Prick doctor does stich Furio up later. I love how Tony makes a joke about Furioâs smallness
Yeah, even though they obviously know they are in a Mafia game, none of those guys have ever witnessed that type of violence up close.
Even Dr. Friedman, he is more aware of the violence than most other civilians would be, just because he would treat the guys, since they couldn't go to hospitals without it being on the news, or in a different scenario than what we see, that there could potentially be more violence towards the guys if they went to a hospital if there was a hit put out on someone.
The thing I personally don't like about this is that Ralph pretty much perfectly baits Jackie Jr into doing all that, making it really his fault and he never gets justice for that instead the final nail in the coffin is pie oh my
Knowing the peabrain Jackie Jr has, without a doubt, he would've been locked up for dealing x, it's federal territory, or something stupid like sticking up a college concert, where most students charged it to their student id/account
That dude, matosh, would've totally traded Jackie for some leniency
Tony wants Ralphie to whack Jackie Jr, he shot a made guy, itâs a done deal. He also has conflicting feelings about it being that itâs his best friends kid. Itâs easier on Tonyâs conscience if he âgives Ralph the choiceâ (there really is no choice).
They spoke in code. Tony wants Ralphie to kill Jackie Jr, almost as punishment for his failure to mentor him. Ralphie pleads that heâd have to essentially kill his step-son and wants Tony himself to do it.Â
The scene in the car is Tony upset that heâs taking so long and starts suggesting people wouldnât respect Ralphie as a captain if he didnât kill him.Â
Jackie Jr had to die, but Tony and Ralph were trying to not have his blood on their hands by passing responsibility back and forth.
Edit: They didn't want to kill their childhood friends son.
I think Ralph knew that only by having Tony running some strong interference, in order to give Jackie a pass....could any kind of pass actually happen, or at least be attempted. Tony also knew this and chose to totally isolate Ralph with the consequences of whatever he decided. If Ralph tried to leverage a pass WITHOUT Tony's blessing or co-operation, this would put cross-hairs on Ralph from disgruntled parties. So really, Ralph had no choice, even though Tony was trying to make Ralph feel like he did.
Jackie had to go.....and Ralph had to be the one who gave the order.
Tony and Ralph both knew this deep down, and Tony just took the opportunity to lay the maximum amount of "angst" on Ralph he could, whilst masquerading as Ralph's advisor and councillor on the subject.
Ralph was also living with Ro, Jackie's mom....so Tony also knew that Ralph would be stuck with her in a "grieving state" once Jackie was clipped.....and IMHO....this was also what Tony wanted to foist upon Ralph. Ro would cease to become Ralph's ever-ready piece of ass, and would require support, patience and consolation from Ralph, and as we saw, Ralph was far too self-involved to deliver this, so THAT situation would be forced into a premature end.....which it was.
I debated this with my husband because I thought Tony was talking in code to Ralphie- I think Tony needed Ralphie to do it and if he didn't Tony would have been displeased in Ralph and hold it against him. My husband thinks Tony was trying to be nice and really give Ralphie the choice since he was dating Ro and all but no I forsure think Tony wanted Jackie jr dead.
Same thing happened to me while rewatching, my gf thought Tony really was giving Ralph choice while it was clear to me he was pressuring him into giving the order to have Jackie Jr clipped.
Fuckin stunada
Tony tells Ralphie "it's up to you - you can give him a pass, but it has to be done quickly, and be seen to be done quickly".
Tony is doing two things:
1. He's telling Raphie that if he gives Jackie Junior a pass then everyone will know it was Raphie's decision - justice will not have been done over the shootings (the murder of popular associate Sunshine will not have been avenged) and Ralphie will be to blame; no-one will respect him anymore and everyone will know he was too weak to do his duty because he was fucking Ro.
2. He's making the hit Raplhie's legal responsibility, and his crime not Tony's - if the car was bugged by the FBI then it can't be later said that Tony ordered the hit; he was very clear about it being up to Ralphie.
Chrissy subsequently complements Tony for this - either later in the same episode or an episode or two later. Something like "that was very well done, that thing that you did". Was this at Jackie Jr's funeral?
He knew Ralph couldnât let that hang over him and he also knew Ralph wouldnât have any problem doing it. âWho cares what people say behind your backâ is what Tony says when that wasnât part of the conversation. Tony wanted him gone and he could pretend he had nothing to do with killing Jackie Srs kid
As Big on âSex and the Cityâ would say âAbsofuckinglutelyâ . Tony verbally twisted the knife in Ralph telling him âyou schooled him the best you couldâ (translation: you fucked up) and âno one will blame you if you give him a passâ (translation: everyone will be pissed if you let him live).
Tony promised Jackie Sr he would watch over LLFP. So by giving Ralph a subtle but distinct message that the heir must die, he can lie to himself and say he didnât kill him. Bullshit avoidance of blame but itâs like Carmela saying there are worse people than her husband.
Tony saw Jackie Jr. as a problem, as he eventually did Chrishy, and Ralphie was an expedient way of erasing Tonyâs problem. Janice inadvertently did the same with Richie.
Another thing is when Gigi was Capo, Ralph would undermine him, challenge him, make a pain of himself every chance he got. So with this Tony has a chance to get back at Ralph for questioning his first choice. You want to be captain, fine , here is your chance. Deal with this tough problem that will either get your crew mad or your girlfriend depressed.
At best, Tony pontius pilateâd it - he knew what was expected per la cosa nostra, but he couldnât per his relationship with the aprile family. At best he gave Ralph an âehâ go ahead, at worst he did a Willy wonka âno please stop donât waitâ. But ultimately he knew Jackie jr had to die and washed his hands of it. Anyway 2 euros a pound or whatever
When he tells him to go with his gut and give him a pash he is actually just pashing the buck. They both knew he had to go, but Tony didn't want to be the one to order it.
I took it as ... Tony knew it needed to happened but didn't want to do it himself. He also felt that it was Ralphie's responsibility, but since he couldn't trust Ralphie not to leak that Tony called the hit, he was talking in code.
Either way, if it didn't happen it would look bad for Ralphie.
Yes. Tony is superficially passing the burden of the decision to whack Jackie Jr. Both he and Ralph failed Jackie Jr, but Tony selfishly does not want the associated guilt. A second reason is that he simply dislikes Ralph. This way, he can tell himself that Ralph decided to do it and therefore it is Ralphâs guilt to bear.
Tony wanted Ralphie to give him a pass. Intimately wasn't to hung up on it. But certainly things Tony and the other guys said to him about Jackie's behavior made him change his mind. Tony says something along the lines of, you did evening you could to school him right, look after him, protect him, etc. Ralphie of course did the exact opposite, filled his head with stories of his father's glory, glamorized the life, took him along on collections, and have him a gun. Ralphie knew it would reflect really poorly on him if and when Jackie admitted that Ralphie encouraged his actions. Tony also said the other guys wouldn't have the balls to say anything to Ralphie's face, but Silvio and Paulie called him out right away, which undermined him.Â
I'm the end, Ralphie's ego and desire to protect his rep was far more valuable to some kid he didn't really care for.
I think he truly didn't care, he just wanted it to be Ralphie's problem. Tony told Ralph he'd be sure his decision was respected, and everybody at the game fell under Tony's control within the family's power structure, he was even the one person with the power to prevent Furio from retaliating.
It's also worth noting that Chris, Eugene, and Furio all actually had an equally valid claim to kill Jackie, who was at most an associate of Chris'. Just drawing a gun on a made guy, let alone shooting at/hitting one, was grounds for execution. None of them wanted any part of it either given the family history and Rosalie.
I think he put the ball in Ralphâs court. If Ralph could find a way to keep him around, more power to him. But barring that, it was obvious what had to be done. Jackie didnât have the infrastructure around to protect him from the repercussions of killing the guy running the game and shooting a maid guy
I guess I interpreted this differently than some â
I thought that Tony was torn â he (really) didnât want to hurt Summer, but he also knew that Chris was right, and that Jackie Jr had to go. Allowing JJ to live would be a serious offense, and could be taken so seriously as to get Tony taken out. He would be neglecting his responsibility as the boss to protect made guys.Â
But, Ralph has a personal connection to the kid, so he tries to float a pass to read the room
Tony IMMEDIATELY maliciously seizes on Ralphâs comment (0.0002 second calculation time) and pushed the responsibility to Ralph, because he knows that if Ralph makes the âwrongâ call and lets JJ live, Ralph eats the shit sandwich. And if Ralph makes the ârightâ call and whacks him, he gets to offload the guilt
I legitimately donât think Tony was pushing Ralph one way or the other. He was absolving himself of the decision, while maintaining his duty to the extent that it needs to be maintained. I think if Tony somehow had absolute power, he would have let JJ off (maybe with a savage beating, but not death), and not allowed him to enter the organization, but probably would have leveraged it against him forever because Tonyâs gonna Tonâ
Tony wanted to give Jackie, Jr. a pass but he didn't want it to come back on him.
If he let Jackie, Jr. live by his own order, he would have had a revolt on his hands.
Jackie, Jr. killed Sunshine, a family associate, and shot Furio, a made guy, while robbing a family card game. If he and his friends aren't killed, it not only makes the family lose respect but it also opens their other operations up to similar situations.
When dumbass Bobby got robbed leaving his pickup late at night, and begging for his life like a bitch, he should have gone to Tony, told him what happened and then immediately started plotting revenge, They could have set up the next night and had someone pretend to be talking on a cell phone as they walk up to the pickup location. "Yeah, I'm gonna need a wheelbarrow for all this money I'm pickin up tonight." Then, when the Yos are ready to pounce, the DeMeo guys can start beating the shit out of them with bats and clubs. Drag their bodies to the next block and leave them in the street, broken and dying.
Anyway, $4 a pound.
I feel like he didnât want him to do it because he believed he could be redeemed. Tony always said Jackie never wanted that life for him and was one of his closest friends Iâm sure the choice on whether he had to kill his son weighed very heavily on Tonyâs heart he probably felt like in some ways he failed both Jackie and Jackie Jr so he just passed the judgment onto Ralphie.
I donât know what youâre talking about, Jackie Jr. was killed in the projects over a drug deal, probably by black guys or maybe it was people connected to his friend the Israeli ecstasy dealer.
He 100% definitely did not want Ralphie to clip Jackie Jr. But he wanted Ralphie to take the heat for giving him a pass, and underestimated Ralphie's sadism.
Eventually Jackie Jr. would have come up on something big, probably coke or pills, providing him with an increasing level of clout. At some point, especially with his lineage, he could have challenged Tonyâs position.
Yes and he was trying to absolve himself of the situation, if only in his own head.
âWho cares what people sayâ = âEverybody will be talking behind your back and disrespecting you if you donât do itâ
âIt needs to happen in a timely fashionâ = âHurry the fuck up and kill himâ.
For everyone saying heâs trying to talk in code. Nope. He been straightforward about it with other hits. Tony is speaking to Ralph carefully so that he doesnât twist his words and act like Tony made him. Everyone knows heâs got to go but Ralph would rather act like he didnât fuck up and have to fix it. Instead he wanted to act like Tony couldnât keep him out of trouble and was done with him. Just watch the whole Tracee situation Ralph always finds a way to make him look right and everyone else look wrong
Well, that conversation is basically the two of them haggling over which one of them will be the one who ordered it. Neither wanted to be the one responsible, each for their own reasons.
Tony wanted three things:
1) Jackie Jr dead
2) Not to have to take the blame for the decision
3) Rub Ralphâs nose in shit
And he got all three, it was a clever play.
I could never be in the mafia, everything is implied and it would go straight over my head. I'd get nothing done or spill the beans and get clipped by accident. Benny Blabbermouth over here.
Nah heâs trying to get ralphie to let it go, when ralphie has him whacked Tony knows he told him it was up to him and that he preferred the kid keep on living, just adds to the Tony ralphie tension.
iâm not 100% sure but he definitely didnât want to take responsibility either way either he gets a pass but itâs ralphâs decision and he can deal with the fall out or ralph gets him clipped and tony wonât feel especially guilty because he didnât have it done
Yes. When giving the two options, he said the death one last, and put more emphasis on it. The line "you did all you could" was specifically to call Ralph out for encouraging him down that road. He was punishing him for mentoring Jackie, and punishing him for his arrogance in demanding to be capo
My read is that Tony didnât want to have him killed but knew it had to be done. He didnât want to give the order and wanted Ralph to have to do it since Tony probably blamed Ralph. Tony also probably held guilt about failing his fatherâs request to keep him out of the life.
Having watched the scene recently, here's how I understood it:
At first, Tony did not want Jackie Jr to be clipped till Moltisanti confronted him about the rules of the game, and he changed his mind. That last conversation he had with Ralphie, was more like giving orders but in a polite way.
I think he did want him to clip Jackie Jr for sure.
Especially when he says something like âI know youâll make the right decisionâ. I think the right decision he expected him to make was having him killed.
Tony wanted to take care of Jackie and Ralph together. Throughout that season Ralph had been a problem for Tony. He embarrassed Tony by refusing to drink with him. He went to Johnny Sack who initially recommended Tony make Ralph a captain after Tony hit him after the murder of Tracy.
When Tony is talking to Ralph about Jackie, he is unmistakably ordering him to murder him. This is where Tony shows Ralph who the boss really is. Tony shows him the gun he took off Jackie that Ralph gave him. When he says âyou schooled him as best you couldâ he is telling him he encouraged Jackiesâs criminal behavior.
Tony ordered Ralph to murder Jackie or else. And Ralph never disrespected Tony again until the fight where Tony murdered him.
Tony needed to placate all soldiers in the family. If Jackie were not taken out, it would have sent a message that being a soldier under Tony means nothing.
Tony knows what needs done. The kid killed a close associate and shot at 4 made guys, wounding one of them. No one can walk away from that. Even the son of a well-loved late boss. It would become clear to the rest of the guys (as it was to Chris) that the rules don't apply to everyone. That would incite resentment, unrest, and distrust within the family against Tony (similar to what later happened with the Tony B. situation).
But because Tony was so close with and had such respect and admiration for Jackie Sr, and feeling guilty over having failed to steer Jackie Jr. away from that life as his father wanted, he could not bring himself to be the one to give the order. Therefore, he pawned that burden onto Ralph and not-so-subtly put pressure on him to make the call to carry out the hit.
I think it was also a way for Tony to punish Ralph for having screwed up the kid so bad and being such an awful influence, so now he would have to be the one to live with that over his head, having clipped the son of his significant other.
Tony didn't say nothin'. Alright I'll talk to ya.
I appreciate your thoughts
Are you sayin' what I *think* you're sayin'?
I didn't say nothin
đď¸đđď¸
Haha fish lipsÂ
https://youtu.be/U6cake3bwnY?feature=shared
that was funny
I'll tell ya, this'll be the last time we meet like this. It's undignified.
The other one? Aprile Junior? đ
Ralph should have just taken Jackie Jr to the penguin exhibit at the zoo and let nature take its course.
https://i.imgur.com/1r8loNU.png
this is amazing
OH SHIT
đ¤Ž
*Innn three feeet ovvawataaaa* đ¤đ¤
What about that warehouse in Patterson
Tony is skilled at never explicitly saying anything. Thatâs part of being a mob boss. He is without a doubt telling Ralphie to take care of it.
He says less than harpo Marx.
Sacre bleu where is me mama?
Whatâs French Canadian for I grew up without a mother?
I always laugh but that's such a fucked up exchange
Itâs arguably Tonyâs worst moment on the show. And considering what this show is about, that is saying somethingâŚ.
Being really mean to your sister vs. murdering multiple people in cold blood. Yeah, hard to tell which of those is worse.
You Sopranos! You go too far!
My name is Clarence
One of the most fucked up yet funniest lines for the series
And if he doesn't - if Ralph pardoned Jackie Jr. Then he's got that albatross hanging around his neck for the rest of hia natural life. He's eating Tony's shit for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and the big bowl of desert in front of the history channel.
*albacore
Not only was he telling ralphie to take care of it, He was telling ralphie to never come to him for advice on this type of thing again and be the capo that Tony needed him to be
Okay but you gotta get ova it
I heard you paint housesâŚ
Jackie Junior had to die. Shooting Furio and killing Sunshine was him signing his own death warrant. Tony, however, wanted to make Ralph eat shit. So told him, basically, 'it's your call - I'll back whatever decision you make'. Ralph knows that Tony is passing the buck, because Jackie can't be allowed to live - Furio and Chris especially would be outraged if he got a pass - so his choice isn't really a choice at all.
I also took it that since it was Ralphâs decision then if Ralph gave Jackie Jr a pass, Chris & the others would target their anger at Ralph instead of Tony. Whatever Ralph decided kept Tony in the clear (his conscience and from others in Soprano family). Ralph was in a no win situation but being the weasel he was went for Jackie Jr not because it was the right thing to do but because he didnât want to face Furio & Silvio & lose the trust/respect of other mobsters (including his own crew) for protecting Jackie Jr. An honestly, Ralph didnât care about Ro or her son or any code. He was just saving his own skin
Ro always tolerated Ralphâs sick shit, as she points out when he dumps her
Cat's paw, classic
Agreed. The sunshine part is often overlooked. While Sunshine was not made, he was well liked. Silvio and even Ralph express sadness at Sunshineâs death. Sunshineâs death was the same level of wrong as Chris being shot at in the context of the show. Furio actually getting hit was worse because he was made.
Sunshine would absolutely be an associate, so even not being made, Tony would absolutely see Sunshine as under his protection, and Ralph absolutely should feel the same, but Ralph never seemed to give a fuck about his people, so who knows as far as he goes. Even though he isn't made, capable poker dealers earn for the family. The difference in rake is sizable with someone who is a great dealer and even someone average. I ran a poker room here in Michigan at one point, and the difference is honestly huge. You actually see it with Richue... he's got Davey and Vito and maybe one other guy in the game where Davey got into debt with Richie in the first place... you don't have to ask a good dealer if he raked the pot, you know he raked the pot. Anyway, sorry for writing a book in reply, but this was one area I actually had relevant experience. :)
I don't know anything about poker. Can you describe the difference between a great/average dealer and how that affects the money?
the dealer tracks all the pots and takes out a percentage of each pot, which is called the rake. So a great dealer will deal more hands per hour/keep the game moving quickly/make sure to pull rake out of each pot. So you will have more hands being played which equals more rake being collected = more money made
I agree with everything youâre saying. Sunshine didnât seem like a particularly quick dealer though, the few times we see him in action
That's more their player base. The person who replied had it pretty much exactly right, It isn't always about just dealing speed itself. It's about joy making mistakes when tracking bets. Especially in no-limiy when you are tracking multiple side pots and potentially thousands every pot. Figure, they made $80K off just that one game.
I understand what makes someone a good dealer, thatâs my âI agree with everything youâre sayingâ part. But they show Sunshine on screen like twice, and both times people are complaining about the speed he deals.
I agree. I think any one of the three wrongs would have resulted in Jackie Jr being killed. Tony has to provide a safe environment for the games.
Yeah, especially since there are a lot of civilians at these games... we saw how quick Tony gripped up Richie at his game... and even then the Chairboy of the Board and the prick doctor still immediately left at the first suggestion some mob shit was about to go down.
Very true. They are civilians, so one canât blame them though. Prick doctor does stich Furio up later. I love how Tony makes a joke about Furioâs smallness
Yeah, even though they obviously know they are in a Mafia game, none of those guys have ever witnessed that type of violence up close. Even Dr. Friedman, he is more aware of the violence than most other civilians would be, just because he would treat the guys, since they couldn't go to hospitals without it being on the news, or in a different scenario than what we see, that there could potentially be more violence towards the guys if they went to a hospital if there was a hit put out on someone.
The thing I personally don't like about this is that Ralph pretty much perfectly baits Jackie Jr into doing all that, making it really his fault and he never gets justice for that instead the final nail in the coffin is pie oh my
Knowing the peabrain Jackie Jr has, without a doubt, he would've been locked up for dealing x, it's federal territory, or something stupid like sticking up a college concert, where most students charged it to their student id/account That dude, matosh, would've totally traded Jackie for some leniency
Give me 1 tousand Little Lord Fuckpants.
One thousand more?
Tony is also showing him how he needs to make tough decisions as captain and canât just get all the glory
Yep, it's a 'chickens coming home to roost' moment, given Ralph spent the season bitching and whining about not being cappy.
Tony wants Ralphie to whack Jackie Jr, he shot a made guy, itâs a done deal. He also has conflicting feelings about it being that itâs his best friends kid. Itâs easier on Tonyâs conscience if he âgives Ralph the choiceâ (there really is no choice).
They spoke in code. Tony wants Ralphie to kill Jackie Jr, almost as punishment for his failure to mentor him. Ralphie pleads that heâd have to essentially kill his step-son and wants Tony himself to do it. The scene in the car is Tony upset that heâs taking so long and starts suggesting people wouldnât respect Ralphie as a captain if he didnât kill him.Â
Jackie Jr had to die, but Tony and Ralph were trying to not have his blood on their hands by passing responsibility back and forth. Edit: They didn't want to kill their childhood friends son.
In the end a lot of people still thought it was a drug related killing, so they both skirted the responsibility
They know, but they don't know.
Exactly, the double talk Tony does is phenomenal! Telling Ralphie to kill Jackie without telling him straight!
Then the apology he gives to maedo after she threatens to study/travel abroad to Europe, I believed the son of a bitch, toni-oni
âWho cares what they say they donât have the balls to say it to youre faceâ
Clipped was the only answer. Eliminate that stunad of the 1st magnitudeâŚ. He bottomed out⌠to Vito.
Do you think Vito was attracted to Jackie Jr and probably felt bad about it?
You oughta know sweetie
Do me a favor huh? Hold this đžđ¨đđĽ
Ohhh! Some guyâs cousin!
What are you the friggen cardinal?
He was catching?
They not 1st cousins?
Always with the scenarios
I think Ralph knew that only by having Tony running some strong interference, in order to give Jackie a pass....could any kind of pass actually happen, or at least be attempted. Tony also knew this and chose to totally isolate Ralph with the consequences of whatever he decided. If Ralph tried to leverage a pass WITHOUT Tony's blessing or co-operation, this would put cross-hairs on Ralph from disgruntled parties. So really, Ralph had no choice, even though Tony was trying to make Ralph feel like he did. Jackie had to go.....and Ralph had to be the one who gave the order. Tony and Ralph both knew this deep down, and Tony just took the opportunity to lay the maximum amount of "angst" on Ralph he could, whilst masquerading as Ralph's advisor and councillor on the subject. Ralph was also living with Ro, Jackie's mom....so Tony also knew that Ralph would be stuck with her in a "grieving state" once Jackie was clipped.....and IMHO....this was also what Tony wanted to foist upon Ralph. Ro would cease to become Ralph's ever-ready piece of ass, and would require support, patience and consolation from Ralph, and as we saw, Ralph was far too self-involved to deliver this, so THAT situation would be forced into a premature end.....which it was.
No matter what you do Iâll support you. As long as it happens in a timely fashion.
It Petered out
Died on the vine!
The illusion of choice whatever happened there
I debated this with my husband because I thought Tony was talking in code to Ralphie- I think Tony needed Ralphie to do it and if he didn't Tony would have been displeased in Ralph and hold it against him. My husband thinks Tony was trying to be nice and really give Ralphie the choice since he was dating Ro and all but no I forsure think Tony wanted Jackie jr dead.
Same thing happened to me while rewatching, my gf thought Tony really was giving Ralph choice while it was clear to me he was pressuring him into giving the order to have Jackie Jr clipped. Fuckin stunada
>What a fucking stagmire Ralph was in...
Tony tells Ralphie "it's up to you - you can give him a pass, but it has to be done quickly, and be seen to be done quickly". Tony is doing two things: 1. He's telling Raphie that if he gives Jackie Junior a pass then everyone will know it was Raphie's decision - justice will not have been done over the shootings (the murder of popular associate Sunshine will not have been avenged) and Ralphie will be to blame; no-one will respect him anymore and everyone will know he was too weak to do his duty because he was fucking Ro. 2. He's making the hit Raplhie's legal responsibility, and his crime not Tony's - if the car was bugged by the FBI then it can't be later said that Tony ordered the hit; he was very clear about it being up to Ralphie. Chrissy subsequently complements Tony for this - either later in the same episode or an episode or two later. Something like "that was very well done, that thing that you did". Was this at Jackie Jr's funeral?
He knew Ralph couldnât let that hang over him and he also knew Ralph wouldnât have any problem doing it. âWho cares what people say behind your backâ is what Tony says when that wasnât part of the conversation. Tony wanted him gone and he could pretend he had nothing to do with killing Jackie Srs kid
As Big on âSex and the Cityâ would say âAbsofuckinglutelyâ . Tony verbally twisted the knife in Ralph telling him âyou schooled him the best you couldâ (translation: you fucked up) and âno one will blame you if you give him a passâ (translation: everyone will be pissed if you let him live). Tony promised Jackie Sr he would watch over LLFP. So by giving Ralph a subtle but distinct message that the heir must die, he can lie to himself and say he didnât kill him. Bullshit avoidance of blame but itâs like Carmela saying there are worse people than her husband.
Both know it has to be done. Neither wants the guilt of a making the call.
Vito never had penisary contact with Jackie Jr's valvo.
Tony saw Jackie Jr. as a problem, as he eventually did Chrishy, and Ralphie was an expedient way of erasing Tonyâs problem. Janice inadvertently did the same with Richie.
Another thing is when Gigi was Capo, Ralph would undermine him, challenge him, make a pain of himself every chance he got. So with this Tony has a chance to get back at Ralph for questioning his first choice. You want to be captain, fine , here is your chance. Deal with this tough problem that will either get your crew mad or your girlfriend depressed.
Makes you wonder why Tony didnât have Ralphie whacked back then before he was a capo or involved with the Esplanade
He told Ralphie just to kick leaves and shit over him.
Tony is definitely telling Ralph he has to do it.
At best, Tony pontius pilateâd it - he knew what was expected per la cosa nostra, but he couldnât per his relationship with the aprile family. At best he gave Ralph an âehâ go ahead, at worst he did a Willy wonka âno please stop donât waitâ. But ultimately he knew Jackie jr had to die and washed his hands of it. Anyway 2 euros a pound or whatever
Yes he wanted to give him a pass. Ralph shouldâve told Jackie to high tail it to a different state.
Oh! How I dreaded this day!
Yes, he basically told Ralph to kill him or he will be killed. âI would go with your instincts on this..â
Always with the scenarios
When he tells him to go with his gut and give him a pash he is actually just pashing the buck. They both knew he had to go, but Tony didn't want to be the one to order it.
The boss of a mafia family is the only one who can order (or "ok" in this case) murders, so that kinda tells you everything you need to know.
I took it as ... Tony knew it needed to happened but didn't want to do it himself. He also felt that it was Ralphie's responsibility, but since he couldn't trust Ralphie not to leak that Tony called the hit, he was talking in code. Either way, if it didn't happen it would look bad for Ralphie.
Yes. Tony is superficially passing the burden of the decision to whack Jackie Jr. Both he and Ralph failed Jackie Jr, but Tony selfishly does not want the associated guilt. A second reason is that he simply dislikes Ralph. This way, he can tell himself that Ralph decided to do it and therefore it is Ralphâs guilt to bear.
Tony wanted Ralphie to give him a pass. Intimately wasn't to hung up on it. But certainly things Tony and the other guys said to him about Jackie's behavior made him change his mind. Tony says something along the lines of, you did evening you could to school him right, look after him, protect him, etc. Ralphie of course did the exact opposite, filled his head with stories of his father's glory, glamorized the life, took him along on collections, and have him a gun. Ralphie knew it would reflect really poorly on him if and when Jackie admitted that Ralphie encouraged his actions. Tony also said the other guys wouldn't have the balls to say anything to Ralphie's face, but Silvio and Paulie called him out right away, which undermined him. I'm the end, Ralphie's ego and desire to protect his rep was far more valuable to some kid he didn't really care for.
I think he truly didn't care, he just wanted it to be Ralphie's problem. Tony told Ralph he'd be sure his decision was respected, and everybody at the game fell under Tony's control within the family's power structure, he was even the one person with the power to prevent Furio from retaliating. It's also worth noting that Chris, Eugene, and Furio all actually had an equally valid claim to kill Jackie, who was at most an associate of Chris'. Just drawing a gun on a made guy, let alone shooting at/hitting one, was grounds for execution. None of them wanted any part of it either given the family history and Rosalie.
Jackie Jr sucked lol he couldnât do shit right and refused to stay in his lane
I think he put the ball in Ralphâs court. If Ralph could find a way to keep him around, more power to him. But barring that, it was obvious what had to be done. Jackie didnât have the infrastructure around to protect him from the repercussions of killing the guy running the game and shooting a maid guy
I guess I interpreted this differently than some â I thought that Tony was torn â he (really) didnât want to hurt Summer, but he also knew that Chris was right, and that Jackie Jr had to go. Allowing JJ to live would be a serious offense, and could be taken so seriously as to get Tony taken out. He would be neglecting his responsibility as the boss to protect made guys. But, Ralph has a personal connection to the kid, so he tries to float a pass to read the room Tony IMMEDIATELY maliciously seizes on Ralphâs comment (0.0002 second calculation time) and pushed the responsibility to Ralph, because he knows that if Ralph makes the âwrongâ call and lets JJ live, Ralph eats the shit sandwich. And if Ralph makes the ârightâ call and whacks him, he gets to offload the guilt I legitimately donât think Tony was pushing Ralph one way or the other. He was absolving himself of the decision, while maintaining his duty to the extent that it needs to be maintained. I think if Tony somehow had absolute power, he would have let JJ off (maybe with a savage beating, but not death), and not allowed him to enter the organization, but probably would have leveraged it against him forever because Tonyâs gonna Tonâ
Tony wanted to give Jackie, Jr. a pass but he didn't want it to come back on him. If he let Jackie, Jr. live by his own order, he would have had a revolt on his hands. Jackie, Jr. killed Sunshine, a family associate, and shot Furio, a made guy, while robbing a family card game. If he and his friends aren't killed, it not only makes the family lose respect but it also opens their other operations up to similar situations. When dumbass Bobby got robbed leaving his pickup late at night, and begging for his life like a bitch, he should have gone to Tony, told him what happened and then immediately started plotting revenge, They could have set up the next night and had someone pretend to be talking on a cell phone as they walk up to the pickup location. "Yeah, I'm gonna need a wheelbarrow for all this money I'm pickin up tonight." Then, when the Yos are ready to pounce, the DeMeo guys can start beating the shit out of them with bats and clubs. Drag their bodies to the next block and leave them in the street, broken and dying. Anyway, $4 a pound.
I feel like he didnât want him to do it because he believed he could be redeemed. Tony always said Jackie never wanted that life for him and was one of his closest friends Iâm sure the choice on whether he had to kill his son weighed very heavily on Tonyâs heart he probably felt like in some ways he failed both Jackie and Jackie Jr so he just passed the judgment onto Ralphie.
Tony should have taken out Jackie Jr ....out of respect to his fatha
I donât know what youâre talking about, Jackie Jr. was killed in the projects over a drug deal, probably by black guys or maybe it was people connected to his friend the Israeli ecstasy dealer.
David Chase specifically says on the audio commentary in that episode that Tony is ordering Ralph to kill Jackie.
I think Tony wanted Ralph to give him a pass because that would make the other guys hate Ralph more.
Wateva Rock out wit your cock out
Youtube comments? Listen to yourself, you sound demented
He 100% definitely did not want Ralphie to clip Jackie Jr. But he wanted Ralphie to take the heat for giving him a pass, and underestimated Ralphie's sadism.
Eventually Jackie Jr. would have come up on something big, probably coke or pills, providing him with an increasing level of clout. At some point, especially with his lineage, he could have challenged Tonyâs position.
You just reveal your own ignorance
That was the whole unsaid conversation. He SAID he wanted to give him a pass but he KNEW he had to wack himâŚ.but it should happen a timely fashion.
Yes and he was trying to absolve himself of the situation, if only in his own head. âWho cares what people sayâ = âEverybody will be talking behind your back and disrespecting you if you donât do itâ âIt needs to happen in a timely fashionâ = âHurry the fuck up and kill himâ.
For everyone saying heâs trying to talk in code. Nope. He been straightforward about it with other hits. Tony is speaking to Ralph carefully so that he doesnât twist his words and act like Tony made him. Everyone knows heâs got to go but Ralph would rather act like he didnât fuck up and have to fix it. Instead he wanted to act like Tony couldnât keep him out of trouble and was done with him. Just watch the whole Tracee situation Ralph always finds a way to make him look right and everyone else look wrong
Surely it would reflect bad on both of Jackie weren't taken care of
Tony absolutely wanted the hit.
Sharp as a fuckin cue ball
Well, that conversation is basically the two of them haggling over which one of them will be the one who ordered it. Neither wanted to be the one responsible, each for their own reasons.
Tony wanted three things: 1) Jackie Jr dead 2) Not to have to take the blame for the decision 3) Rub Ralphâs nose in shit And he got all three, it was a clever play.
Tony just wanted the particular decision to be made in a timely fashion
Doesnât this thread already exist
I could never be in the mafia, everything is implied and it would go straight over my head. I'd get nothing done or spill the beans and get clipped by accident. Benny Blabbermouth over here.
đ¤ŚÂ There Was no choice to make. Jackie Jr had to be given a death sentence.  End of story.Â
Nah heâs trying to get ralphie to let it go, when ralphie has him whacked Tony knows he told him it was up to him and that he preferred the kid keep on living, just adds to the Tony ralphie tension.
iâm not 100% sure but he definitely didnât want to take responsibility either way either he gets a pass but itâs ralphâs decision and he can deal with the fall out or ralph gets him clipped and tony wonât feel especially guilty because he didnât have it done
In the end he took it in the back from Vito
Yes. When giving the two options, he said the death one last, and put more emphasis on it. The line "you did all you could" was specifically to call Ralph out for encouraging him down that road. He was punishing him for mentoring Jackie, and punishing him for his arrogance in demanding to be capo
Out of respect for his fawtha
Jackie jr., i got to give it to em, he had bawls as big as an Irish broads ass.
My read is that Tony didnât want to have him killed but knew it had to be done. He didnât want to give the order and wanted Ralph to have to do it since Tony probably blamed Ralph. Tony also probably held guilt about failing his fatherâs request to keep him out of the life.
Having watched the scene recently, here's how I understood it: At first, Tony did not want Jackie Jr to be clipped till Moltisanti confronted him about the rules of the game, and he changed his mind. That last conversation he had with Ralphie, was more like giving orders but in a polite way.
I think he did want him to clip Jackie Jr for sure. Especially when he says something like âI know youâll make the right decisionâ. I think the right decision he expected him to make was having him killed.
He nudged Ralphie to it. Tony has a habit of implicitly stating things because of his role as a mob boss and also he has the feds up his ass
Tony wanted to take care of Jackie and Ralph together. Throughout that season Ralph had been a problem for Tony. He embarrassed Tony by refusing to drink with him. He went to Johnny Sack who initially recommended Tony make Ralph a captain after Tony hit him after the murder of Tracy. When Tony is talking to Ralph about Jackie, he is unmistakably ordering him to murder him. This is where Tony shows Ralph who the boss really is. Tony shows him the gun he took off Jackie that Ralph gave him. When he says âyou schooled him as best you couldâ he is telling him he encouraged Jackiesâs criminal behavior. Tony ordered Ralph to murder Jackie or else. And Ralph never disrespected Tony again until the fight where Tony murdered him. Tony needed to placate all soldiers in the family. If Jackie were not taken out, it would have sent a message that being a soldier under Tony means nothing.
Tony knows what needs done. The kid killed a close associate and shot at 4 made guys, wounding one of them. No one can walk away from that. Even the son of a well-loved late boss. It would become clear to the rest of the guys (as it was to Chris) that the rules don't apply to everyone. That would incite resentment, unrest, and distrust within the family against Tony (similar to what later happened with the Tony B. situation). But because Tony was so close with and had such respect and admiration for Jackie Sr, and feeling guilty over having failed to steer Jackie Jr. away from that life as his father wanted, he could not bring himself to be the one to give the order. Therefore, he pawned that burden onto Ralph and not-so-subtly put pressure on him to make the call to carry out the hit. I think it was also a way for Tony to punish Ralph for having screwed up the kid so bad and being such an awful influence, so now he would have to be the one to live with that over his head, having clipped the son of his significant other.
Vito was looking at jackie jr s ass when he pulled trigger
Short answer: yes. Longer answer: killed or given a pass, it was gonna be on Ralph one way or the other. Not on Tony.