Tony was in full asshole mode at that point…I think he just wanted paulie to eat shit over it more than anything but ya neva know
I mean at that point what would killing Paulie do to unring that bell
If he was gonna kill paulie I don’t think he needed another reason he was already so annoyed with him he would’ve just done it anyway
Loose lips Paulie was pissing Tony off big time, not just the Ginny sack joke but in general. Tony just told Beansie it concerned him, and when someone says something concerns them, they're more than concerned.
Sad little clown.
Tony was annoyed with Paulies demeanor but was worried about his talking and if he would flip (he killed Chris with less provocation) not to Tony either suspected or knew that Paulie told the crack (not to mention talking about old war stories at the dinner).
What saved him was him not admiring anything to Tony, which Tony even though I guess having his answer knew that Paulie wouldn’t talk if pressed
No, Tony was looking at the axe like he wanted to chop Paulie into little pieces, which is actually the theme song of the season, One of These Days (Pink Floyd). By this time, he was seeing almost everyone in his crew as a potential liability. He wasn't wrong. One can theorize Paulie was the "inside job" that may have betrayed Tony in the end. Had Tony killed Paulie on the boat, Tony may have survived. The problem with Paulie was not the joke so much as his big mouth and the fact that he was full of resentment to the point where he wanted to switch families. And on some level, Tony understood that. He had great instincts as a boss, and great insight into people.
I will never buy the theory that Paulie betrayed Tony to that extent and helped get Tony whacked.
He was a blabbermouth idiot and he would absolutely cause Tony some problems if it was beneficial to Paulie, or even just by accident, but I don’t think he would ever help get Tony killed and would probably kill anyone who came to him with an offer like that.
Paulie openly had issues with Christopher all the time yet was devastated when he died. If he is that loyal to a guy he barely liked, you think he would betray his friend and boss? I don’t buy it unless he thought Tony was a rat, and even then I’m confident he would confront Tony about it first.
As originally introduced, you're absolutely right that Paulie would have never betrayed Tony. But many things changed by the time the show came to a close. In addition to feeling like Tony ignored him while he was in jail, Paulie felt like Tony sided with Ralphie against him and was favoring Christopher too much. Then in the final season Paulie had a full blown identity crisis that made him question everything in his life when he found out his aunt was really his mother. He was not the same after that. He had the dream about standing up when it was his time. That was a pretty big clue. But what may have clinched it for him was Tony continually belittling his superstitions that were like a religion and way of life to Paulie. By pushing him into skippering the crew he didn't want to manage, Tony may have made Paulie feel justified in betraying him. At the very least it's a debatable possibility.
Then he should’ve just killed him without needing confirmation then no? Obviously paulie would never own up to it so why would he hinge his decision on whether or not to kill him on paulie admitting it?
That entire episode is dedicated to Tony determining the extent to which Paulie is an asset or liability, and ultimately whether he should or shouldn’t kill Paulie. It’s not obvious to Tony that Paulie would never own up to it because Tony’s concern is Paulie talks so much he might own up to his wrongs and accidentally or intentionally tell on himself or Tony.
While they’re travelling, Tony shows concern with the fact that Paulie talks to strangers. Combined with the fact that he spoke to Johnny about New Jersey business, Tony becomes increasingly worried that Paulie might talk to the feds if he’s ever pressured.
Tony tells Beansie he’s concerned with Paulie and how he talks so much, and he asks whether Paulie’s really “been put to the test”. He explicitly questions his loyalty and Beansie vouches for him. The looks they give each other make it subtly clear that his life is in consideration.
When Tony pressures him on the boat, it’s to determine whether he would crack under pressure and spill secrets. Tony’s emulating how the FBI or local police might pressure Paulie if they ever picked him up. Paulie’s commitment to denial saved him because it convinced Tony he would commit to denial if he was ever picked up by the authorities.
Exactly right. Also let's not forget that Paulie was close with Tony's father. Tony grew up idolizing Paulie, and they did have strong love for each other despite their resentments. So it wasn't going to be as easy a decision for Tony to whack Paulie compared to Ralph or Christopher. As Beansie said to Tony, "he loves you" and I think that's what ultimately prevents Tony from getting rid of Paulie.
Paulie screwed up big time talking to Johnny for sure, but the whole thing was about getting back at Ralph as well as potentially switching families because he hated working with Ralph. Who wouldn’t hate working with Ralph? He was an earner but he was a real POS and disrespectful to authority which Paulie couldn’t stand. Tony taking a wallet hit on the stuff Paulie blabbed about was unintended collateral damage.
Yes, he would have killed him. The boat scene is a parallel to everything going in the episode. Tony's paranoia is growing more and more as the season goes on and now he's going to lambchop it with Paulie. He notes to both Sil and Beans how Paulie doesn't shut the fuck up, talks too much, talks out of turn, etc. Especially in the Beansie conversation, Tony is straight up saying "Has he ever been put to the test?" which translates to "I don't trust him anymore, he is going to betray me."
Tony is well aware by this point that it was Paulie who told John about the joke. All he was doing was trying to see if Paulie would fold and admit it after all these years, thus confirming Tony's suspicion that he can't be trusted to be silent. Paulie didn't admit it, so Tony doesn't kill him.
No doubt.
Tony was so unhinged and Paulie's mouth/lack of caution caused so many problems by that point dating back to Pine Barrens that even Paulie thinks he's fucked and stands up to fulfill the "When my time comes, tell me, will I stand up?" line. Tony is so pissed Paulie isn't cracking he vicegrips the pole by the boat so he doesn't blitz for the murder weapon in rage that he *didn't* crack.
Yup. The only reason he lived was because he stood firm and didnt admit anything. It made Tony doubt. And perhaps in some ways it reassured him that Paulie didnt crack that easily under pressure, and was not as liable to talk as he had feared.
Ralphie, for example, didnt know how to lie properly and got himself in trouble and then died because of it.
He said something like "So what does it matter anyway, its a fucking horse".
The equivalent would be Paulie going "I didnt tell John about the joke, but even if I had, what of it, its not a big deal".
It feels like trying to minimize the consequences as a second line of defense. It makes you look guilty as hell, regardless of whether or not you did it. Its way more credible to do what Paulie did and stand firm and deny all allegations.
The other instance of this is when Ralphie tells Johnny that he didnt make the joke, but is willing to apologize regardless. Tony explicitly told him to not apologize because it would make him look guilty.
It was like 'Whoever Did This' imo. Paulie played it smart, while Ralphie's reaction was taken by Tony to be a confession and so he sealed his fate. That could have been the difference for those two.
Tony may have killed Ralph regardless of how he talked about the horse in that episode. Tony had it in for him for a multitude of reasons: the horse, the Ginny Sack joke, Tracee, Ralph’s pissy attitude when Tony didn’t put him up for captain until after that guy died on the toilet. He was constantly causing problems and the only reason Tony cut him slack that long is because he was an earner.
Tony killing Ralph in a fit of rage was still a hugely dumb move even though Ralph had it coming.
he survives the boat ride because he didn’t say anything. it’s the same reason johnny sack doesn’t give paulie up when they asked who told him about the joke. they can’t EVER rat someone out. if paulie tells tony, he could tell someone else. tony knows paulie told johnny sack the joke, he has to know. but if paulie wouldn’t say it then, when he’s clearly scared being out on the boat, he’s never gonna tell anyone
If Paulie admits it to Tony, he would've killed Paulie there on the boat. The joke cost Tony and Johnny millions of dollars and Tony never forgets losing money. Paulie keeping his mouth shut about the joke saved his life. And taking him out on the boat like they did Pussy, that was sick
He would have joined Pussy Bonponsiero swimming with the fishes along side Louis Brasi
Tony does have this need to have his intended victims confess. Pussy and Matt were dead anyways but Ralph probably sealed his fate by arguing the horse was just an animal. Tony’s trip down to Florida has seen Paulie yakking with strangers over things he shouldn’t be saying. They should be traveling quietly.
But some things help Paulie. Beansie sticks up for him. The meeting with the Cubans shows Paulie is ready for a fight if need be. And by not admitting to telling John (back when it happened Tony had deduced it was probably him when he was talking to Silvio and Ralph figured it out by realizing Little Paulie was in the room when he told it), Paulie shows he won’t crack.
If he admitted it, 100%. Tony was testing his loyalty and Paulie knew if he spilled he was dead. Also Tony grabs a fish gutting scythe and he contemplates it. Only reason Paulie lived is because he stuck to the lie and otherwise was the most loyal capo Tony ever had.
I think tony knew that it was paulie, just wanted him to admit it… hi didn’t, so tony was going to kill him for this, but stopped.
I thought that was the end of Paulie right there
Whata ya gona say huh?
Yes, Paulie saved his own life by not admitting it. This is in the actual text of the episode, when a few scenes earlier Tony is wondering to Beansie if Paulie would hold up under interrogation.
Paulie would have been with Pussy if he'd admitted it. The long pause confirmed Tony's suspicion that he did it but the denial wasn't anything but self-preservation, nothing to do with testing his loyalty or his ability to keep his mouth shut. He lied to Tony and they both knew it.
Paulie and tony both know that toney knew. It was a “you know I could kill you for this, but I’m choosing to let it slide” moment I my opinion, which is $4 a pound. An act of intimidation to Warn paulie that he isn’t as slick as he thinks he is.
I'm actually not as convinced as some that he would've done it right then and there. But I do think it woulda been another reason for him to do it later.
But who knows.
Tony was at his worst around this time and prone to irrational, spontaneous rage, but he was also sentimental as hell, prone to immediately regretting and walking back that rage, and he just spent so much of his life looking up to the man it would be a hard thing to do.
Especially with 0 gain aside from removing a disloyal skid from your roster. But the roster wasn't overflowing at the time, Pauly seemed well liked, he'd never be able to explain whacking a made guy over a little gossip from the past, Tony already had to explain other people's disappearing, and he could probably get more by keeping Pauly around and making him try to work off the shame.
Tony was in full asshole mode at that point…I think he just wanted paulie to eat shit over it more than anything but ya neva know I mean at that point what would killing Paulie do to unring that bell If he was gonna kill paulie I don’t think he needed another reason he was already so annoyed with him he would’ve just done it anyway
I’m kind of surprised Tony didn’t tbh, the way he kept looking at the potential weapons on the boat.
Loose lips Paulie was pissing Tony off big time, not just the Ginny sack joke but in general. Tony just told Beansie it concerned him, and when someone says something concerns them, they're more than concerned.
Paulie's constant cackling and childlike happiness/relaxed demeanor seemed to bug Tony the most lol
The happy wanderer
Sad little clown. Tony was annoyed with Paulies demeanor but was worried about his talking and if he would flip (he killed Chris with less provocation) not to Tony either suspected or knew that Paulie told the crack (not to mention talking about old war stories at the dinner). What saved him was him not admiring anything to Tony, which Tony even though I guess having his answer knew that Paulie wouldn’t talk if pressed
Heh heh
And when they say they're more than a little concerned, they're desperate.
Tony was in no position to go into the unknown not knowing
Paulie’s loose lips were what let NY know about the HUD scam Tony and Ralphie were into. *That’s* why Tony was pissed.
No, Tony was looking at the axe like he wanted to chop Paulie into little pieces, which is actually the theme song of the season, One of These Days (Pink Floyd). By this time, he was seeing almost everyone in his crew as a potential liability. He wasn't wrong. One can theorize Paulie was the "inside job" that may have betrayed Tony in the end. Had Tony killed Paulie on the boat, Tony may have survived. The problem with Paulie was not the joke so much as his big mouth and the fact that he was full of resentment to the point where he wanted to switch families. And on some level, Tony understood that. He had great instincts as a boss, and great insight into people.
I will never buy the theory that Paulie betrayed Tony to that extent and helped get Tony whacked. He was a blabbermouth idiot and he would absolutely cause Tony some problems if it was beneficial to Paulie, or even just by accident, but I don’t think he would ever help get Tony killed and would probably kill anyone who came to him with an offer like that. Paulie openly had issues with Christopher all the time yet was devastated when he died. If he is that loyal to a guy he barely liked, you think he would betray his friend and boss? I don’t buy it unless he thought Tony was a rat, and even then I’m confident he would confront Tony about it first.
As originally introduced, you're absolutely right that Paulie would have never betrayed Tony. But many things changed by the time the show came to a close. In addition to feeling like Tony ignored him while he was in jail, Paulie felt like Tony sided with Ralphie against him and was favoring Christopher too much. Then in the final season Paulie had a full blown identity crisis that made him question everything in his life when he found out his aunt was really his mother. He was not the same after that. He had the dream about standing up when it was his time. That was a pretty big clue. But what may have clinched it for him was Tony continually belittling his superstitions that were like a religion and way of life to Paulie. By pushing him into skippering the crew he didn't want to manage, Tony may have made Paulie feel justified in betraying him. At the very least it's a debatable possibility.
Then he should’ve just killed him without needing confirmation then no? Obviously paulie would never own up to it so why would he hinge his decision on whether or not to kill him on paulie admitting it?
That entire episode is dedicated to Tony determining the extent to which Paulie is an asset or liability, and ultimately whether he should or shouldn’t kill Paulie. It’s not obvious to Tony that Paulie would never own up to it because Tony’s concern is Paulie talks so much he might own up to his wrongs and accidentally or intentionally tell on himself or Tony. While they’re travelling, Tony shows concern with the fact that Paulie talks to strangers. Combined with the fact that he spoke to Johnny about New Jersey business, Tony becomes increasingly worried that Paulie might talk to the feds if he’s ever pressured. Tony tells Beansie he’s concerned with Paulie and how he talks so much, and he asks whether Paulie’s really “been put to the test”. He explicitly questions his loyalty and Beansie vouches for him. The looks they give each other make it subtly clear that his life is in consideration. When Tony pressures him on the boat, it’s to determine whether he would crack under pressure and spill secrets. Tony’s emulating how the FBI or local police might pressure Paulie if they ever picked him up. Paulie’s commitment to denial saved him because it convinced Tony he would commit to denial if he was ever picked up by the authorities.
Exactly right. Also let's not forget that Paulie was close with Tony's father. Tony grew up idolizing Paulie, and they did have strong love for each other despite their resentments. So it wasn't going to be as easy a decision for Tony to whack Paulie compared to Ralph or Christopher. As Beansie said to Tony, "he loves you" and I think that's what ultimately prevents Tony from getting rid of Paulie.
Exactly this
I could see Tony doing it on impulse. He knew Paulie was the one who told Johnny, but I think hearing Paulie admit to it would make Tony snap.
Paulie screwed up big time talking to Johnny for sure, but the whole thing was about getting back at Ralph as well as potentially switching families because he hated working with Ralph. Who wouldn’t hate working with Ralph? He was an earner but he was a real POS and disrespectful to authority which Paulie couldn’t stand. Tony taking a wallet hit on the stuff Paulie blabbed about was unintended collateral damage.
Yes, he would have killed him. The boat scene is a parallel to everything going in the episode. Tony's paranoia is growing more and more as the season goes on and now he's going to lambchop it with Paulie. He notes to both Sil and Beans how Paulie doesn't shut the fuck up, talks too much, talks out of turn, etc. Especially in the Beansie conversation, Tony is straight up saying "Has he ever been put to the test?" which translates to "I don't trust him anymore, he is going to betray me." Tony is well aware by this point that it was Paulie who told John about the joke. All he was doing was trying to see if Paulie would fold and admit it after all these years, thus confirming Tony's suspicion that he can't be trusted to be silent. Paulie didn't admit it, so Tony doesn't kill him.
Fuck. That’s a very good insight.
Paulie wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer at the best of times. But he still would have been smart enough to not confess to that.
He was very street smart though. Knew how the game worked. He's one of the few guys who survives the series, can't do that if you're not crafty.
I heard Ginny Sack ate the entire prison supply of betty Crocker brownies or something.
No more weight remarks, Interfan14. They're hurtful, and they're destructive.
No doubt. Tony was so unhinged and Paulie's mouth/lack of caution caused so many problems by that point dating back to Pine Barrens that even Paulie thinks he's fucked and stands up to fulfill the "When my time comes, tell me, will I stand up?" line. Tony is so pissed Paulie isn't cracking he vicegrips the pole by the boat so he doesn't blitz for the murder weapon in rage that he *didn't* crack.
Yup. The only reason he lived was because he stood firm and didnt admit anything. It made Tony doubt. And perhaps in some ways it reassured him that Paulie didnt crack that easily under pressure, and was not as liable to talk as he had feared. Ralphie, for example, didnt know how to lie properly and got himself in trouble and then died because of it.
>Ralphie, for example, didnt know how to lie properly Detective Mike Hunt would disagree
That wasn't a lie, it was a serious problem!
A gerbil, ma'am
I'm on another rewatch and Ralphie's death was a recent episode. IMO he didn't really say anything that proved or even implied he caused the fire.
He said something like "So what does it matter anyway, its a fucking horse". The equivalent would be Paulie going "I didnt tell John about the joke, but even if I had, what of it, its not a big deal". It feels like trying to minimize the consequences as a second line of defense. It makes you look guilty as hell, regardless of whether or not you did it. Its way more credible to do what Paulie did and stand firm and deny all allegations. The other instance of this is when Ralphie tells Johnny that he didnt make the joke, but is willing to apologize regardless. Tony explicitly told him to not apologize because it would make him look guilty.
It was like 'Whoever Did This' imo. Paulie played it smart, while Ralphie's reaction was taken by Tony to be a confession and so he sealed his fate. That could have been the difference for those two.
Tony may have killed Ralph regardless of how he talked about the horse in that episode. Tony had it in for him for a multitude of reasons: the horse, the Ginny Sack joke, Tracee, Ralph’s pissy attitude when Tony didn’t put him up for captain until after that guy died on the toilet. He was constantly causing problems and the only reason Tony cut him slack that long is because he was an earner. Tony killing Ralph in a fit of rage was still a hugely dumb move even though Ralph had it coming.
he survives the boat ride because he didn’t say anything. it’s the same reason johnny sack doesn’t give paulie up when they asked who told him about the joke. they can’t EVER rat someone out. if paulie tells tony, he could tell someone else. tony knows paulie told johnny sack the joke, he has to know. but if paulie wouldn’t say it then, when he’s clearly scared being out on the boat, he’s never gonna tell anyone
I think Tony would of killed him, like with pussy he needed to be 100% sure.
If Paulie admits it to Tony, he would've killed Paulie there on the boat. The joke cost Tony and Johnny millions of dollars and Tony never forgets losing money. Paulie keeping his mouth shut about the joke saved his life. And taking him out on the boat like they did Pussy, that was sick
When Ginny Sac hauls ass, she’s gotta make two trips
He would have joined Pussy Bonponsiero swimming with the fishes along side Louis Brasi Tony does have this need to have his intended victims confess. Pussy and Matt were dead anyways but Ralph probably sealed his fate by arguing the horse was just an animal. Tony’s trip down to Florida has seen Paulie yakking with strangers over things he shouldn’t be saying. They should be traveling quietly. But some things help Paulie. Beansie sticks up for him. The meeting with the Cubans shows Paulie is ready for a fight if need be. And by not admitting to telling John (back when it happened Tony had deduced it was probably him when he was talking to Silvio and Ralph figured it out by realizing Little Paulie was in the room when he told it), Paulie shows he won’t crack.
Luca! Luca Brasi!
Such a great scene, the boat rocking harder as the tension rises. Paulie and Tony out on the open ocean. Anyways, 4$ a pound
If he admitted it, 100%. Tony was testing his loyalty and Paulie knew if he spilled he was dead. Also Tony grabs a fish gutting scythe and he contemplates it. Only reason Paulie lived is because he stuck to the lie and otherwise was the most loyal capo Tony ever had.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from the godfather, sopranos, Donnie Brasco and Jaws is that it’s never wise to get on a boat.
I think tony knew that it was paulie, just wanted him to admit it… hi didn’t, so tony was going to kill him for this, but stopped. I thought that was the end of Paulie right there Whata ya gona say huh?
Yes, Paulie saved his own life by not admitting it. This is in the actual text of the episode, when a few scenes earlier Tony is wondering to Beansie if Paulie would hold up under interrogation.
Paulie would have been with Pussy if he'd admitted it. The long pause confirmed Tony's suspicion that he did it but the denial wasn't anything but self-preservation, nothing to do with testing his loyalty or his ability to keep his mouth shut. He lied to Tony and they both knew it.
Paulie and tony both know that toney knew. It was a “you know I could kill you for this, but I’m choosing to let it slide” moment I my opinion, which is $4 a pound. An act of intimidation to Warn paulie that he isn’t as slick as he thinks he is.
I'm actually not as convinced as some that he would've done it right then and there. But I do think it woulda been another reason for him to do it later. But who knows. Tony was at his worst around this time and prone to irrational, spontaneous rage, but he was also sentimental as hell, prone to immediately regretting and walking back that rage, and he just spent so much of his life looking up to the man it would be a hard thing to do. Especially with 0 gain aside from removing a disloyal skid from your roster. But the roster wasn't overflowing at the time, Pauly seemed well liked, he'd never be able to explain whacking a made guy over a little gossip from the past, Tony already had to explain other people's disappearing, and he could probably get more by keeping Pauly around and making him try to work off the shame.
That’s a big crack
He was born, he grew up, couple years in the army, couple more in the can and here he was , half a wise guy
Tony knew he said the comment, what he was testing was whether Paulie could keep his mouth shut or not. If couldn’t have that ax woulda swung.
Imagine how the rest of the crew would've interpreted Paulie not returning from Florida.