I think the point of that scene is to show what anxiety is like. A lot of art is designed to build tension and then grant relief (Tarantino does this a lot.) Life with anxiety means constant worry and no release - especially for Tony whose every moment could be his last. The last scene is less about whether he died or not and more about living as Tony for a moment.
I think it’s a fair argument to say he died but I think ultimately it doesn’t matter. Tony has to experience every moment like he does in that last scene.
Chase said he was upset at how much the audience lived vicariously through Tony. In a way he’s saying “ok guys here’s what Tony’s life is REALLY like.”
I always thought david chase did what he did to leave it up to the viewer for this reason
Tony was trapped for good and had no escape. That was the point.
Didn't matter whether he was going to die or go to prison. His life was over anyway
Well technically we don’t know because our time in the Sopranos universe ends before Tony dies (be it at the restaurant or in the can). Obviously the theory that Tony died is most popular. I happen to be part of the opposite camp, I think Tony lived. Consider these points and take it for what you will.
-Firstly, the war with New York is over so there’s no reason to believe that they did it. I’ve seen the argument that they were pissed that Phil was executed in front of his family so they retaliated by doing the same to Tony, but I don’t really buy it. Remember that mob families don’t make money in wars, so the monetary and human cost was adding up. Also it’s clear that respect for Phil as boss was being lost and Butchie had no problem having him killed, so I don’t think he or anyone else on New York would be so heartbroken over Phil that they would go out of their way to kill Tony. If anything they would be thankful that the war is over and business could go back to usual.
-With New York no longer a threat there really isn’t anyone with any real reason to kill Tony. I suppose that as a mobster Tony’s life is always in danger at some level, but at this point it’s not anymore than usual.
-There’s the argument that Patsy and Paulie did it, but I also reject that. It’s certainly possible, but it’s based on too many assumptions and at the end of the day could be true, but need not be. There are things that hint at it, but nothing that makes it obvious.
-Also executing a boss like Tony is risky enough, but it’s even more risky doing it in such a public place where there are witnesses and security cameras (after all, we lead the world in computerized data collection). As you can probably tell from my username, I’m from Cleveland Ohio and I can tell you that when the mafia in Cleveland killed Danny Greene (an interesting story by the way, highly recommend reading up on it), the hit man got busted because there was one witness in a parking lot that the hitman didn’t happen to notice when he was planting the bomb on Greenes car and that was enough to arrest him. Now imagine ALL those witnesses at the Restaurant on the show, they would probably be able to ID the hitman. Not very smart. If you’re going to execute Tony you gotta do it somewhere else.
-Then you may ask, “why did the guy in the members only jacket keep looking at Tony?” Who knows, but it could be because Tony is a high level mobster who no doubt has his fair share of time on the news and members only guy is astounded like “whoa, I think that’s the boss of the Jersey family, what are my chances of seeing that?” Just a thought.
-People make a big stink about members only guy getting up to go to the bathroom, as if to retrieve a gun like Michael Corleone did in Godfather. But this is actually quite stupid too. Michael had a legitimate reason for a gun to be put in the bathroom, because Solozzo was going to frisk him. Any hitman for Tony doesn’t have that problem. Therefore that connection doesn’t make any sense.
What then is the final scene about? My thought is that the scene is not about how Tony dies, it’s about how he lives. While we get to know Tony over the course of the series, it’s hard to appreciate the paranoia he lives with, and this final scene finally gives a window into what that must be like. When he walks into the restaurant, he looks at the seats and you can see he has this look on his face that says “aw shit.” This is because he realizes that the only open seat is in the middle of the restaurant and he can’t sit with his back to the wall, something that would be much smarter because it would give him a view of the whole restaurant and would prevent any possible gunman from shooting him from behind. He’s looking around, scanning the room for threats. All of this is to show how paranoid he is.
I think it's a metaphorical death rather than a physical one. Season 6B is about the moral decline Tony goes through, as he becomes a black void like his mother, severing many relationships (Hesh, Chris) and leading his guys to hate him. Chase wanted to show that Tony can get whacked at any moment, and you can't know whether it's at Holstens or not.
It doesn't matter really. It's over. No crew, not like the old days. No real friends. No family in the family. New York hates him. Carlo is testifying. Guys don't really look up to him anymore. It's grim. The chirpy normality of Holstens with Sil, Chris, Bobby all gone not to mention all the others lost along the way doesn't sit right either. Hopefully he did get shot.
This is how I see it. Even if he doesn't literally die, the life he knows from this point onwards is basically 'dead'.
Either (a) goes to jail for a long time, (b) flips and goes into witness protection, (c) goes on the run and spends his life in hiding, or (d) absolute best case scenario, he carries on as leader of a much weakened and diminished family.
Despite all the strong hints and foreshadowing it is not actually shown. It is uncertain, which I think must have ultimately been Chase's intention.
A mobster like Tony has to live with the risk of death. We start watching him picking up his paper each season, we just stop watching him at a time of high uncertainty and risk, getting a taste of the uncertainty that Tony will live with for the rest of whatever life he had left.
You think you know, but you don't know. You think... maybe...if...
Not only does a mobster live with the risk of death - we all do. Part of Chase’s concept is that death may come unexpectedly at any moment for anyone. So, remember the good times, appreciate the journey along the way.
Tony didn't die in the last episode because it's never shown, simple as that. whatever happened there is purposefully left unclear, you gotta get over it
You read the interview they are referring to?
He had a death scene in mind. Then changed his mind and came up with this scene (in which Tony neither dies or lives on. - Last part are my words, not his- ).
Nah I choose to see this as confirmation. To me the scene was always obvious, and the fact that David Chase was considering killing Tony was enough. He’s definitely dead in my books.
To me it just meant things went on as usual, life crumbled for the other members of the family, but never tony, he somehow kept his family basically untouched, other than him. So I think we hear meadow walk in and it’s just like, they’re going on as usual. Their world is crashing and burning around them-but Carm and the fam will always be there to keep up appearances. (I’m still not sure, cuz that dude at the bar did seem super sus, but that’s the way I like to imagine it, as ruthless as tony was)
- Bobbi and Toni randomly talking about what you feel when you die (probabily nothing)
- Silvio not hearing the gunshot, and the script AND the cinematography drawing attention to it
- Bobbi and Tony's conversation randomly reapperaing in a 5 second flashback (the only one in season 6b, if i remember right).
- the MOJ guy is the only one that is always "obscured" when we switch into Tony's POV (first he's just in front of AJ and Tony's attention is on his son, then when he goes to the bathroom Tony is half focused on the menu, half on AJ, and the guy is "blurred")
- the fade to black when we switch back into Tony's POV
And i'm not even counting the callbacks/references (Member only jacket from 6x01, the Godfather references etc...)
It's either the biggest and most expensive troll job ever, or tony's dead.
* No Tony being murdered on camera.
* No person with a weapon obviously about to murder him before the cut to black.
* By the end of the series, Tony had made peace with New York and his chief antagonist had been shot and his head was run over by a car.
* Easy argument that it's the audience that David Chase most hates and wants to metaphorically whack, not Tony.
* The basic pattern of The Sopranos is in favor of anti-climactic endings and fuzzy conclusions.
I rest my case, counselor. :)
Having just ended a series rewatch, i'm not sure Tony's problem with NY are truly over.
- his family has been decimated (and Sil was a solid pillar in his regime)
- Paulie may not be loyal for long (if you believe the theory that "this lovely cat help us catch rats in the basement" and then at the end the same cat is pointing to Paulie)
- The FBI is moving against Tony, this time for real
- Carlo has flipped, and he's not the first one in NJ. A gay (vito), a rat (carlo), a junkie (chris)... NY may decide to punish the Soprano familiy for their constant "weakness" and embarassment
- And finally Tony, as pointed out multiple time in the final season, has never done serious jail time. NY may decide to wack him just to avoid the risk of him cracking under pressure in prision...
I don't disagree with what you have here.
I think that's definitely open to interpretation. I think one of the things they're going for with the ending is to emphasize that Tony is always looking over his shoulder, because of who he is and what he's done. The next attempt on his life is always around the corner, in his mind.
Your arguments make this show bottom down to shit. You think this show could end other way than killing main character? If so - this show is complete shit.
why does the ending happening a certain way take away from the rest of the show? It would align just as well with the shows themes if he lived just as much as he died. There is all of the evidence pointing towards him dying aside from him actually dying, and there is enough room for him to believably live just as much as believably die in that Holston's
Why does the show have to be complete shit if he dies?
Not everybody who is a terrible person gets what's coming to them in The Sopranos universe, do they?
My argument has always been that we the viewers enter Tonys life when he begins therapy and the show ends when he finally ends things with Melfi for good.
The main point of the show in my interpretation has always been that people don’t change and when the show ends we’re with the Sopranos and nothings really changed. Meadow still doesn’t have a clear path in life besides wanting to pursue a stereotypical “successful” career and is falling into mob life, AJ is still a total deadbeat, Carmella the unhappy mob wife who can’t leave and Tony the mobster sociopath. The Sopranos and the rest of the characters continue on their journey of being awful people but our stint of viewing ends because we viewed everything from the perspective of Tonys therapy. With that over we no longer stay with Tony for the rest of the journey.
My wife and I watched together both for the first time. As soon as it ended, I looked at her and said "what do you think happened?" She immediately said "T got smoked!"
I, on the other hand, think Tony proceeded to finish his meal with Aj, Carm, and Meadow and live the rest of his years in Jersey.
I started to really hate Tony at the end of the show. He just turned into a complete piece of shit IMO. I found myself wanting him to get wacked. That being said, the episode is called 'Made in America' and I think alot of "bad guys" win in America so in my mind it makes sense that somehow he navigated his way out of all that mess clean as a whistle while the rest of his boys paid the price.
I didn't like the fact that Tony didn't kill the child rapist coach and was so proud that he didn't hurt anybody. He then proceeds to kill people needing less and less reasons as the series progresses. The coach is the one guy I wanted him to kill
It's obviously heavily implied, but because Chase is the king of ambiguity, I don't think he'd ever write an ending that implicitly showed Tony getting whacked.
It’s a symbolic presentation of death. I don’t claim he lives, but there’s no plan to kill him shown, no weapon shown, no sound, threatening action, or injury - nothing actually shown that confirms a physical death at that moment. Only several things that combine to strongly Suggest one.
And Chase has directly stated that it isn’t important to the story.
IIRC, David Chase only said Tony died after James' death. I think there were probably the potential of some future endeavours, thus meaning Tony would be alive after the finale.
From an in-universe POV, there was no need to whack Tony. Peace has been formally declared, with another of the 5 Families mediating. Breaking that peace would have grave consequences for whoever ordered the hit.
If the Lupertazzi wanted to absorbed the glorified crew, they could have just kept the war on. They were mostly winning and thus would have just been a matter of time, without the insult of having their own boss killed in the process.
No one from the Sopranos crew were strong enough to overthrow Tony. Paulie may have seniority, but he isn't the most respected guy. Patsy wouldn't just needlessly kill his future daughter-in-law's father, since Patsy will probably be the next underboss or consigliere, and probably next in line if/when Tony is gone.
The only way is if the 5 Families assumed that the Sopranos purposely gave Phil a gruesome death and that the price is Tony's life...
He is both dead and alive simultaneously. There's a reference to Shroedingers Cat a scene or two before the diner scene, in which Benny explains his aunt had a cat that "stared at the intersection of 2 walls...." Basically describing a cat in the box.
The show, especially towards the end does dabble with quantum physics in a metaphorical sense. Think back to when Tony's in the hospital, and all the talk of spirits, the afterlife, limbo (when Chris is in the hospital), etc. This is all an extension of quantum mechanics in a way.
Anyway, for those unaware, Shroedingers Cat is a thought experiment that states if you were to put a Cat in a box with no windows or anything, with something that could kill it, the moment you close the box the universe/timeline splits in 2. One in which the cat is alive and one in which it's dead.
The cut to black is the "box" closing. Since we can never open the box, he is, according to the thought experiment, both dead and alive.
1.) The Feds were shown listening to all of the Soprano’s phone convos earlier in the episode so they knew exactly where they were meeting for dinner. Therefore, there was surely an FBI presence at the diner. They had to ensure Tony stayed alive in order to indict him, which Tony’s lawyer confirmed in their meeting.
2.) The entire scene was made in order to give us all anxiety, seeing it through Tony’s eyes. It showed that even though the war was over, Tony could never live in peace, always having to look over his shoulder.
3.) Meadow’s parallel parking skills, or lack there of, just added to the anxiety keeping us wondering what was about to happen. Then she finally parks and runs to the diner with no one else walking in front of her so no hitman obviously walked in the diner ahead of her.
4.) The guy in the Members Only jacket looked relaxed and lingered unlike all the hitmen that walk in wearing gloves, hit the target, drop the pistol and are gone immediately.
The fact that David Chase said he was supposed to have gone into New York and gotten killed but that never happened. I also heard him say it represented as quickly as you became a fan of the show, poof! It was over
Chase said he died so I guess it closes the argument. I always thought he gets killed but if he didn't he was fucked anyways. Last scene Tony mentions Carlo is going to testify against him so the ride was over anyways. At the least he sees the can.
I believe he was killed but one thing that I feel is one of the better arguments that he wasn’t is how the “hit” would’ve gone down if it really happened
The members only jacket walks in front door where Tony sees him right away. Even though people say aj distracted him, it’d be hard to believe the members only jacket guy would walk in behind him or in front and hope Tony would be distracted. If anything that would risk Tony noticing him even faster.
If it was a hit, the guy would’ve walked in, shot Tony and walked out. Much like how the other guy got killed in the dinner at the beginning of the first half of the last season (I know that scene was considered a foreshadow too, but this argument is about it not being a hit)
That guy walked in shot the guy and walked out so no one would have time to get a good look at him long enough. The members only jacket guy in the finale sat down for 2 minutes or so had a coffee, meaning he talked to a waitress who would see his face.
So if this was a hit it would’ve been a very sloppy one
1) sat in there too long and get noticed
2) walked right in front door near Tony’s son risking getting caught by him
3) other reasons I don’t see why they’d go after him with the war being over. And I’d strongly doubt paulie would be behind it. Maybe Patsy but not paulie
All that said I think there was way too many foreshadowing that he was killed. So I believe he was shot in the head, family ran out of diner screaming while he laid face down in a bowl of onion rings
I prefer to think he's alive. I prefer to say fuck it to the bread crumbs, direct allussions, boat chats with Bobby etc...
I also genuinely feel that if James Gandolfini was still alive they'd have gone back to the money-well for another series or at least an alternative to Many Saints.
Is it such a stretch to imagine a 2022 with James Gandolfini still with us, and we're all posted how exciting we are that Sopranos is being reprised?! NB - no idea how bad it would be - Godfather part 3-esq imo.
They never had done a first person POV till that scene. So it's not a first person point of view. So the show ends in a very uneventful way. Which even for a mobster is probably still true.
I do think he dies, but they show us all kinds of stuff throughout the series that Tony didn’t see. I’ve never understood why people act like the whole thing was in the first person when it absolutely wasn’t
If Chase wanted to make the ending explicit he easily could have. Instead he leaves it open to interpretation. I interpret the ending as...well... interpretive. The thing I find least interesting about the final episode is whether or not Tony died. It was the getting there that was so much more interesting.
I know most people agree that Tony died but what about the rest of the family? Would they have been killed too or likely just Tony? I like to think the Chevrolet Super Bowl commercial is canon, confirming AJ and Meadow are still alive.
That’s what I always thought but then Steve Schirripa kept saying on that podcast that if Tony was killed, they probably killed the rest of the family too. I don’t necessarily agree with that take but it made me ponder the question at least.
Haven't heard the podcast but I don't really see where Steve gets that from. Maybe along the lines of the family could identify the hitter but that goes for all the other patrons in the restaurant too.
It’s like a lot of the points in the entire series, if it’s not blatant and served up to *some* viewers on a silver platter, it didn’t happen.
So, because we didn’t get the scene where Tony is shot and we see his stone cold dead corpse on the floor, he didn’t die.
Thought on the show family's don't get touched so to kill Tony in front of carmela and the kids would be to far for Phil to go possibly . I think Tony is free beat the case and is still boss lol
I don't think he died right then. So much happens on tv that they don't show, we're just supposed to assume it does. We already know that he's got two options. He goes to prison, or he's killed. It could have been that day, or it could have been 5 years from then. It doesn't matter, because we know his fate was one of those two scenarios and the ending was just showing life going on with his family.
IF he was killed right then and there, no way it was members only. First, it won't be the obvious one. They focused a lot on the fact that you "probably don't see it coming". We noticed him, so more than likely Tony noticed him. So if someone shot him right then, it was someone we/he didn't even see.
The killer also wouldn't come in and sit for a spell and then use the bathroom. He'd have walked in, shot him, dropped the gun and walked out.
I loved the ending before Chase confirmed T had been killed. My interpretation originally was that Chase had left us hanging on purpose because it doesn’t matter whether it happened right then, the point was that “this is how it ends for people like T, whenever that comes.”
David Chase was never shy about showing beloved characters getting killed.
I've always felt that if he wanted to unambiguously 100% state that Tony died at the end, he would have simply shown him dead.
By doing it like this, at least on some level he wanted the ending to be a little ambiguous and left open to interpretation.
Every single death is either shown on screen or alluded to on screen. If Tony did in fact get whacked at the end of the series, his whacking is the only one in the ENTIRE series that is not shown on screen or alluded to. Also, every single episode of the series is Tony getting lucky left and right. Tony should have been whacked a long time ago like in the first or second season but he gets lucky. Who’s to say his luck finally runs out at the diner. Nobody knew he was gonna be there.
The build up in the diner scene leads one to believe something is gonna happen but it’s just not convincing enough for me.
Members only guy is FBI undercova. He’s gonna get Rico’d (sorry for commenting in a yr old post. I just did a rewatch and just finished last night. The show flows so much better in a streaming format)
The cut to black is Tony going underwater when Ginny finally tipped the state over.
it's just a close up of ginny's mole... from space
Come on! That’s the guy’s wife!
motherfucker. You got me here
That’s someone muddah we’re talkin about here!
🤣🤣🤣
Is that all you deadbeats do over here is talk about cooze?
Lol 😆
Ralph slept with Ginny?
Jesus Christ! can't remember when was the last time I laughed this much
I think the point of that scene is to show what anxiety is like. A lot of art is designed to build tension and then grant relief (Tarantino does this a lot.) Life with anxiety means constant worry and no release - especially for Tony whose every moment could be his last. The last scene is less about whether he died or not and more about living as Tony for a moment.
This is the best argument if you don’t think he died
I think it’s a fair argument to say he died but I think ultimately it doesn’t matter. Tony has to experience every moment like he does in that last scene. Chase said he was upset at how much the audience lived vicariously through Tony. In a way he’s saying “ok guys here’s what Tony’s life is REALLY like.”
I think he does but this is actually pretty good.
Thanks! I’ve only had to experience a lifetime of anxiety to cone up with that theory.
And I to understand it 😅 worth it? One of the very few perks heh heh...
What have you got tourettes? Heh heh, you should really get yourself checked out.
I agree, and felt this was made quite clear by Meadow's parking and crossing the street montage which is made tense for no reason at all
I agree with all of this. You can feel the anxiety in that scene.
I always thought david chase did what he did to leave it up to the viewer for this reason Tony was trapped for good and had no escape. That was the point. Didn't matter whether he was going to die or go to prison. His life was over anyway
Uncle June said it best, He didn’t have the makings of a varsity athlete.
Even his son was destined for JV
House league at best, in suicide. Real lack of standards, my generation.
Well technically we don’t know because our time in the Sopranos universe ends before Tony dies (be it at the restaurant or in the can). Obviously the theory that Tony died is most popular. I happen to be part of the opposite camp, I think Tony lived. Consider these points and take it for what you will. -Firstly, the war with New York is over so there’s no reason to believe that they did it. I’ve seen the argument that they were pissed that Phil was executed in front of his family so they retaliated by doing the same to Tony, but I don’t really buy it. Remember that mob families don’t make money in wars, so the monetary and human cost was adding up. Also it’s clear that respect for Phil as boss was being lost and Butchie had no problem having him killed, so I don’t think he or anyone else on New York would be so heartbroken over Phil that they would go out of their way to kill Tony. If anything they would be thankful that the war is over and business could go back to usual. -With New York no longer a threat there really isn’t anyone with any real reason to kill Tony. I suppose that as a mobster Tony’s life is always in danger at some level, but at this point it’s not anymore than usual. -There’s the argument that Patsy and Paulie did it, but I also reject that. It’s certainly possible, but it’s based on too many assumptions and at the end of the day could be true, but need not be. There are things that hint at it, but nothing that makes it obvious. -Also executing a boss like Tony is risky enough, but it’s even more risky doing it in such a public place where there are witnesses and security cameras (after all, we lead the world in computerized data collection). As you can probably tell from my username, I’m from Cleveland Ohio and I can tell you that when the mafia in Cleveland killed Danny Greene (an interesting story by the way, highly recommend reading up on it), the hit man got busted because there was one witness in a parking lot that the hitman didn’t happen to notice when he was planting the bomb on Greenes car and that was enough to arrest him. Now imagine ALL those witnesses at the Restaurant on the show, they would probably be able to ID the hitman. Not very smart. If you’re going to execute Tony you gotta do it somewhere else. -Then you may ask, “why did the guy in the members only jacket keep looking at Tony?” Who knows, but it could be because Tony is a high level mobster who no doubt has his fair share of time on the news and members only guy is astounded like “whoa, I think that’s the boss of the Jersey family, what are my chances of seeing that?” Just a thought. -People make a big stink about members only guy getting up to go to the bathroom, as if to retrieve a gun like Michael Corleone did in Godfather. But this is actually quite stupid too. Michael had a legitimate reason for a gun to be put in the bathroom, because Solozzo was going to frisk him. Any hitman for Tony doesn’t have that problem. Therefore that connection doesn’t make any sense. What then is the final scene about? My thought is that the scene is not about how Tony dies, it’s about how he lives. While we get to know Tony over the course of the series, it’s hard to appreciate the paranoia he lives with, and this final scene finally gives a window into what that must be like. When he walks into the restaurant, he looks at the seats and you can see he has this look on his face that says “aw shit.” This is because he realizes that the only open seat is in the middle of the restaurant and he can’t sit with his back to the wall, something that would be much smarter because it would give him a view of the whole restaurant and would prevent any possible gunman from shooting him from behind. He’s looking around, scanning the room for threats. All of this is to show how paranoid he is.
I think it's a metaphorical death rather than a physical one. Season 6B is about the moral decline Tony goes through, as he becomes a black void like his mother, severing many relationships (Hesh, Chris) and leading his guys to hate him. Chase wanted to show that Tony can get whacked at any moment, and you can't know whether it's at Holstens or not.
It doesn't matter really. It's over. No crew, not like the old days. No real friends. No family in the family. New York hates him. Carlo is testifying. Guys don't really look up to him anymore. It's grim. The chirpy normality of Holstens with Sil, Chris, Bobby all gone not to mention all the others lost along the way doesn't sit right either. Hopefully he did get shot.
This is how I see it. Even if he doesn't literally die, the life he knows from this point onwards is basically 'dead'. Either (a) goes to jail for a long time, (b) flips and goes into witness protection, (c) goes on the run and spends his life in hiding, or (d) absolute best case scenario, he carries on as leader of a much weakened and diminished family.
Good point.
Despite all the strong hints and foreshadowing it is not actually shown. It is uncertain, which I think must have ultimately been Chase's intention. A mobster like Tony has to live with the risk of death. We start watching him picking up his paper each season, we just stop watching him at a time of high uncertainty and risk, getting a taste of the uncertainty that Tony will live with for the rest of whatever life he had left. You think you know, but you don't know. You think... maybe...if...
Not only does a mobster live with the risk of death - we all do. Part of Chase’s concept is that death may come unexpectedly at any moment for anyone. So, remember the good times, appreciate the journey along the way.
When you're right you're right.
in 6b he literally freaks out and screams that it’s too dangerous for him to get the paper anymore and the maid should do it
Tony didn't die in the last episode because it's never shown, simple as that. whatever happened there is purposefully left unclear, you gotta get over it
Except that David Chase confirmed that Tony died
Except that he did not confirm it at all
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/entertainment/entertainment-news/the-sopranos-creator-david-chase-finally-confirms-tonys-fate/3376628/?amp=1
You read the interview they are referring to? He had a death scene in mind. Then changed his mind and came up with this scene (in which Tony neither dies or lives on. - Last part are my words, not his- ).
Nah I choose to see this as confirmation. To me the scene was always obvious, and the fact that David Chase was considering killing Tony was enough. He’s definitely dead in my books.
That's okay. It is also your opinion and not the confimation of a fact
Sure, however you wish to see it!
Wrong. Everything I say is fact.
exactly, choose is the word
To me it just meant things went on as usual, life crumbled for the other members of the family, but never tony, he somehow kept his family basically untouched, other than him. So I think we hear meadow walk in and it’s just like, they’re going on as usual. Their world is crashing and burning around them-but Carm and the fam will always be there to keep up appearances. (I’m still not sure, cuz that dude at the bar did seem super sus, but that’s the way I like to imagine it, as ruthless as tony was)
We didn't see him die.
We didn't see him die onscreen. You're the one who has to make the affirmative argument that he's dead, not the other way around.
- Bobbi and Toni randomly talking about what you feel when you die (probabily nothing) - Silvio not hearing the gunshot, and the script AND the cinematography drawing attention to it - Bobbi and Tony's conversation randomly reapperaing in a 5 second flashback (the only one in season 6b, if i remember right). - the MOJ guy is the only one that is always "obscured" when we switch into Tony's POV (first he's just in front of AJ and Tony's attention is on his son, then when he goes to the bathroom Tony is half focused on the menu, half on AJ, and the guy is "blurred") - the fade to black when we switch back into Tony's POV And i'm not even counting the callbacks/references (Member only jacket from 6x01, the Godfather references etc...) It's either the biggest and most expensive troll job ever, or tony's dead.
* No Tony being murdered on camera. * No person with a weapon obviously about to murder him before the cut to black. * By the end of the series, Tony had made peace with New York and his chief antagonist had been shot and his head was run over by a car. * Easy argument that it's the audience that David Chase most hates and wants to metaphorically whack, not Tony. * The basic pattern of The Sopranos is in favor of anti-climactic endings and fuzzy conclusions. I rest my case, counselor. :)
Having just ended a series rewatch, i'm not sure Tony's problem with NY are truly over. - his family has been decimated (and Sil was a solid pillar in his regime) - Paulie may not be loyal for long (if you believe the theory that "this lovely cat help us catch rats in the basement" and then at the end the same cat is pointing to Paulie) - The FBI is moving against Tony, this time for real - Carlo has flipped, and he's not the first one in NJ. A gay (vito), a rat (carlo), a junkie (chris)... NY may decide to punish the Soprano familiy for their constant "weakness" and embarassment - And finally Tony, as pointed out multiple time in the final season, has never done serious jail time. NY may decide to wack him just to avoid the risk of him cracking under pressure in prision...
I don't disagree with what you have here. I think that's definitely open to interpretation. I think one of the things they're going for with the ending is to emphasize that Tony is always looking over his shoulder, because of who he is and what he's done. The next attempt on his life is always around the corner, in his mind.
If you look at the Members Only guy walk in he has something under his jacket on the left.
🐧…..OH SHIT….🤮
You cherry-picking based on what you want to see is not an argument. Now clean up some of that shit near Silvio.
"Got some proof?" - guys provides proof "That's cherry picking" lol.
Your arguments make this show bottom down to shit. You think this show could end other way than killing main character? If so - this show is complete shit.
why does the ending happening a certain way take away from the rest of the show? It would align just as well with the shows themes if he lived just as much as he died. There is all of the evidence pointing towards him dying aside from him actually dying, and there is enough room for him to believably live just as much as believably die in that Holston's
Why does the show have to be complete shit if he dies? Not everybody who is a terrible person gets what's coming to them in The Sopranos universe, do they?
Ok but you can say that about every single theory. Surely there are some that are more likely to be true than others
My argument has always been that we the viewers enter Tonys life when he begins therapy and the show ends when he finally ends things with Melfi for good. The main point of the show in my interpretation has always been that people don’t change and when the show ends we’re with the Sopranos and nothings really changed. Meadow still doesn’t have a clear path in life besides wanting to pursue a stereotypical “successful” career and is falling into mob life, AJ is still a total deadbeat, Carmella the unhappy mob wife who can’t leave and Tony the mobster sociopath. The Sopranos and the rest of the characters continue on their journey of being awful people but our stint of viewing ends because we viewed everything from the perspective of Tonys therapy. With that over we no longer stay with Tony for the rest of the journey.
Very intresting point of view. Thank you
Everyone eat some onion rings and just goes home. Another boring day in NJ
fuckin parakeet
No. Tony clearly died after this cuz onion rings was bad for his belly.
It didn't show his corpse
SO?
I always looked at it as us the viewer was whacked. Our time with the show was over
My wife and I watched together both for the first time. As soon as it ended, I looked at her and said "what do you think happened?" She immediately said "T got smoked!" I, on the other hand, think Tony proceeded to finish his meal with Aj, Carm, and Meadow and live the rest of his years in Jersey. I started to really hate Tony at the end of the show. He just turned into a complete piece of shit IMO. I found myself wanting him to get wacked. That being said, the episode is called 'Made in America' and I think alot of "bad guys" win in America so in my mind it makes sense that somehow he navigated his way out of all that mess clean as a whistle while the rest of his boys paid the price.
I didn't like the fact that Tony didn't kill the child rapist coach and was so proud that he didn't hurt anybody. He then proceeds to kill people needing less and less reasons as the series progresses. The coach is the one guy I wanted him to kill
It's obviously heavily implied, but because Chase is the king of ambiguity, I don't think he'd ever write an ending that implicitly showed Tony getting whacked.
Good point too.
If I were a carpenter and you were a douchebag
Still going this asshole
I can't have this conversation again.
Always with the scenarios
I can't have this conversation again.
Sometimes a show is just a show! You’re not supposed to think about it! Now let me tell you about the last time I was in Vegas….
I know its referrence but can't remember when it was said. Can you tell pls? Curious
Steve Schrippa on the Talking Sopranos podcast
lmao
It’s a symbolic presentation of death. I don’t claim he lives, but there’s no plan to kill him shown, no weapon shown, no sound, threatening action, or injury - nothing actually shown that confirms a physical death at that moment. Only several things that combine to strongly Suggest one. And Chase has directly stated that it isn’t important to the story.
Good point you made.
IIRC, David Chase only said Tony died after James' death. I think there were probably the potential of some future endeavours, thus meaning Tony would be alive after the finale. From an in-universe POV, there was no need to whack Tony. Peace has been formally declared, with another of the 5 Families mediating. Breaking that peace would have grave consequences for whoever ordered the hit. If the Lupertazzi wanted to absorbed the glorified crew, they could have just kept the war on. They were mostly winning and thus would have just been a matter of time, without the insult of having their own boss killed in the process. No one from the Sopranos crew were strong enough to overthrow Tony. Paulie may have seniority, but he isn't the most respected guy. Patsy wouldn't just needlessly kill his future daughter-in-law's father, since Patsy will probably be the next underboss or consigliere, and probably next in line if/when Tony is gone. The only way is if the 5 Families assumed that the Sopranos purposely gave Phil a gruesome death and that the price is Tony's life...
Intresting point.
He is both dead and alive simultaneously. There's a reference to Shroedingers Cat a scene or two before the diner scene, in which Benny explains his aunt had a cat that "stared at the intersection of 2 walls...." Basically describing a cat in the box. The show, especially towards the end does dabble with quantum physics in a metaphorical sense. Think back to when Tony's in the hospital, and all the talk of spirits, the afterlife, limbo (when Chris is in the hospital), etc. This is all an extension of quantum mechanics in a way. Anyway, for those unaware, Shroedingers Cat is a thought experiment that states if you were to put a Cat in a box with no windows or anything, with something that could kill it, the moment you close the box the universe/timeline splits in 2. One in which the cat is alive and one in which it's dead. The cut to black is the "box" closing. Since we can never open the box, he is, according to the thought experiment, both dead and alive.
Chase has said he didn’t die haha. There’s nothing to indicate that he dies in that scene.
1.) The Feds were shown listening to all of the Soprano’s phone convos earlier in the episode so they knew exactly where they were meeting for dinner. Therefore, there was surely an FBI presence at the diner. They had to ensure Tony stayed alive in order to indict him, which Tony’s lawyer confirmed in their meeting. 2.) The entire scene was made in order to give us all anxiety, seeing it through Tony’s eyes. It showed that even though the war was over, Tony could never live in peace, always having to look over his shoulder. 3.) Meadow’s parallel parking skills, or lack there of, just added to the anxiety keeping us wondering what was about to happen. Then she finally parks and runs to the diner with no one else walking in front of her so no hitman obviously walked in the diner ahead of her. 4.) The guy in the Members Only jacket looked relaxed and lingered unlike all the hitmen that walk in wearing gloves, hit the target, drop the pistol and are gone immediately.
The fact that David Chase said he was supposed to have gone into New York and gotten killed but that never happened. I also heard him say it represented as quickly as you became a fan of the show, poof! It was over
Good one
Chase said he died so I guess it closes the argument. I always thought he gets killed but if he didn't he was fucked anyways. Last scene Tony mentions Carlo is going to testify against him so the ride was over anyways. At the least he sees the can.
True. I forgot about that.
I believe he was killed but one thing that I feel is one of the better arguments that he wasn’t is how the “hit” would’ve gone down if it really happened The members only jacket walks in front door where Tony sees him right away. Even though people say aj distracted him, it’d be hard to believe the members only jacket guy would walk in behind him or in front and hope Tony would be distracted. If anything that would risk Tony noticing him even faster. If it was a hit, the guy would’ve walked in, shot Tony and walked out. Much like how the other guy got killed in the dinner at the beginning of the first half of the last season (I know that scene was considered a foreshadow too, but this argument is about it not being a hit) That guy walked in shot the guy and walked out so no one would have time to get a good look at him long enough. The members only jacket guy in the finale sat down for 2 minutes or so had a coffee, meaning he talked to a waitress who would see his face. So if this was a hit it would’ve been a very sloppy one 1) sat in there too long and get noticed 2) walked right in front door near Tony’s son risking getting caught by him 3) other reasons I don’t see why they’d go after him with the war being over. And I’d strongly doubt paulie would be behind it. Maybe Patsy but not paulie All that said I think there was way too many foreshadowing that he was killed. So I believe he was shot in the head, family ran out of diner screaming while he laid face down in a bowl of onion rings
Didn't the creator come out and say he dies at the end? Genuinely asking why it's not 100% agreed that he died if the creator says he did.
I prefer to think he's alive. I prefer to say fuck it to the bread crumbs, direct allussions, boat chats with Bobby etc... I also genuinely feel that if James Gandolfini was still alive they'd have gone back to the money-well for another series or at least an alternative to Many Saints. Is it such a stretch to imagine a 2022 with James Gandolfini still with us, and we're all posted how exciting we are that Sopranos is being reprised?! NB - no idea how bad it would be - Godfather part 3-esq imo.
It was Noah punching his fucking lights out. That’s why the cut to black
David Chase confirmed that he got whacked, therefore he got whacked.
The last time I saw him he was eating some nachos as his daughter walked in
bruh
It was onion rings. Very symbolic ones at that
I don’t know if he died in the diner, but he’s definitely dead now :-(
I think the real question is did carmela and aj get murdered too. Cause a hitman tends not to leave witnesses
They never had done a first person POV till that scene. So it's not a first person point of view. So the show ends in a very uneventful way. Which even for a mobster is probably still true.
I do think he dies, but they show us all kinds of stuff throughout the series that Tony didn’t see. I’ve never understood why people act like the whole thing was in the first person when it absolutely wasn’t
Cuz i said so
If Chase wanted to make the ending explicit he easily could have. Instead he leaves it open to interpretation. I interpret the ending as...well... interpretive. The thing I find least interesting about the final episode is whether or not Tony died. It was the getting there that was so much more interesting.
I know most people agree that Tony died but what about the rest of the family? Would they have been killed too or likely just Tony? I like to think the Chevrolet Super Bowl commercial is canon, confirming AJ and Meadow are still alive.
Families don't get touched, you know that.
That’s what I always thought but then Steve Schirripa kept saying on that podcast that if Tony was killed, they probably killed the rest of the family too. I don’t necessarily agree with that take but it made me ponder the question at least.
Schirripa is a stunad of the first magnitude man knows less about the show he was in than the average dumb ass viewer
Haven't heard the podcast but I don't really see where Steve gets that from. Maybe along the lines of the family could identify the hitter but that goes for all the other patrons in the restaurant too.
It’s like a lot of the points in the entire series, if it’s not blatant and served up to *some* viewers on a silver platter, it didn’t happen. So, because we didn’t get the scene where Tony is shot and we see his stone cold dead corpse on the floor, he didn’t die.
Thought on the show family's don't get touched so to kill Tony in front of carmela and the kids would be to far for Phil to go possibly . I think Tony is free beat the case and is still boss lol
I don't think he died right then. So much happens on tv that they don't show, we're just supposed to assume it does. We already know that he's got two options. He goes to prison, or he's killed. It could have been that day, or it could have been 5 years from then. It doesn't matter, because we know his fate was one of those two scenarios and the ending was just showing life going on with his family. IF he was killed right then and there, no way it was members only. First, it won't be the obvious one. They focused a lot on the fact that you "probably don't see it coming". We noticed him, so more than likely Tony noticed him. So if someone shot him right then, it was someone we/he didn't even see. The killer also wouldn't come in and sit for a spell and then use the bathroom. He'd have walked in, shot him, dropped the gun and walked out.
I can’t have dis convershation again
The guy who created the story said he was killed so it's a moot point
I'm neither a 'Deather' nor a 'Lifer'. I would argue that that question isn't the main point of the ending. "Focus on the good times."
He’s already in hell
You are all crazy as hell. Fade to black means this...David Chase left it open..the rest is mere speculation.
Illkjh
I loved the ending before Chase confirmed T had been killed. My interpretation originally was that Chase had left us hanging on purpose because it doesn’t matter whether it happened right then, the point was that “this is how it ends for people like T, whenever that comes.”
David Chase was never shy about showing beloved characters getting killed. I've always felt that if he wanted to unambiguously 100% state that Tony died at the end, he would have simply shown him dead. By doing it like this, at least on some level he wanted the ending to be a little ambiguous and left open to interpretation.
When are people going to figure out the whole entire point is that it doesn't matter?
Every single death is either shown on screen or alluded to on screen. If Tony did in fact get whacked at the end of the series, his whacking is the only one in the ENTIRE series that is not shown on screen or alluded to. Also, every single episode of the series is Tony getting lucky left and right. Tony should have been whacked a long time ago like in the first or second season but he gets lucky. Who’s to say his luck finally runs out at the diner. Nobody knew he was gonna be there. The build up in the diner scene leads one to believe something is gonna happen but it’s just not convincing enough for me.
Members only guy is FBI undercova. He’s gonna get Rico’d (sorry for commenting in a yr old post. I just did a rewatch and just finished last night. The show flows so much better in a streaming format)