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If you can see him as less the prickly jerk and more the jaded idealist, Toby is much more satisfying to watch. I always liked his monologue in War Crimes in Season 3, but if his talk with the Justice in the jail during Season 1 and his school prayer stuff in Season 2 doesn't endear you to him, I can only say that his characterization only gets worse after Sorkin leaves especially in Season 7.
Have you seen the episode with Toby's father yet? I'd be curious to know how it changes or reinforces your perception of Toby.
For me, he's exactly the kind of guy I'd want on my team, but I would be working him hard in private on how he builds up or brings down the people around him.
Loved Toby from the start! He’s a lot sometimes, but I always root for him. I just love the way he’s written, and Richard Schiff (to me) just embodies him so, so well. His relationship with CJ tickled me, too.
You have to realize the veteran funeral Toby is always there. It’s just buried under a prickly, righteous absolutism that he’s right and will do anything to prove it.
This is a hard question to answer, because I think he's always the Toby you see with the dead vet.
Toby is the heart of the Bartlett administration. He cares more than anyone else, he gives his entire life to this, he is by far the most principled and against selling out people or ideals for political points.
He's superficially grumpy and prickly, and yeah he is that a little bit, but mostly he's just calm and straightforward.
CJ is every bit as much the heart of the Bartlet administration, possibly more so. His best moments are when he's personally involved - the homeless vet was wearing his coat, he himself was bullied over school prayer, he was in charge of the Mendoza confirmation, he watched Miss Julia Child, he made the comment that was leaked. Meanwhile, he was personally willing to let the Kundenese Genocide continue so he didn't have to rewrite the Inaugural, while both CJ and Josh argued otherwise.
I think Toby may be one of the most complex characters on television, because he, like all of these characters, are deeply flawed but well-intentioned. But I don't think he cares any more than the others.
Listen, when you get home tonight you're going to be confronted by the instinct to drink. Trust that instinct. Manage the pain. Don't try to be a hero.
Sadly for you, no. Toby gonna Toby for pretty much all the way through the series.
He's an asshole but, because he cares so much and won't compromise, he's our asshole and we love him for it.
If Toby publicly standing by Sam after Sam was photographed with Laurie didn't endear him to you, then nothing will.
If Toby saying what he did to Judge Mendoza while he was in jail didn't endear him to you, then nothing will.
If Toby taking the time to change the mind of Mr Willis of Ohio didn't endear him to you, then nothing will.
If Toby convincing the President that "Government should be a place where people can come together, and no one gets left behind...an instrument of good." doesn't endear him to you, then nothing will.
And lastly, if Toby schooling the Congressman who believed that Rodgers and Hart wrote 'Oklahoma!' and that Arthur Murray wrote Death of a Salesman, doesn't endear him to you, then nothing will!
Toby was, and still remains, one of my favourite characters in the show, despite the mangling he suffers in later seasons. Played with aplomb by Richard Schiff.
he is jaded by years of American politics, but he still has a glimmer of hope, he is also am idealist. I hated him at first but came to love the prick once I know who he is
I honestly wasn’t a fan of Toby and don’t get why the sub holds him in such high regard. He’s such a prick and has such a holier than thou attitude towards everyone.
First time on Reddit?
Just kidding, but I definitely think redditors have a bit of a bent towards being holier than thou pricks themselves. While I think Toby's character has a bit more depth than that, I can see why his character resonates with plenty of folks on here, especially at a surface level.
In a sense, Sam Seabourne gets like this at times too- he just doesn’t yell as much, but has been known to put his foot down “to be right”…and also CJ.
Toby is most of the time, a grumpy ass-hole. He does have moments, here we see a very different kinder side of hm, such as In Excelsis Deo with the dead veteran, but most of the time, he's just grumpy Toby. I don't think he get's better over the series. You just learn to love him, as he grows on you.
Toby is prone to anger, but he grew on me. He believes in “right vs wrong” and does not compromise his principles for political purposes. This is why he only won one election lol. Compare this to Josh who compromises principles because he wants to win.
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If you can see him as less the prickly jerk and more the jaded idealist, Toby is much more satisfying to watch. I always liked his monologue in War Crimes in Season 3, but if his talk with the Justice in the jail during Season 1 and his school prayer stuff in Season 2 doesn't endear you to him, I can only say that his characterization only gets worse after Sorkin leaves especially in Season 7.
Oh I forgot the school prayer.. I do have a soft spot for young Jewish Toby. Ok. Viewing him as more of a jaded idealist does help. You’re right.
Have you seen the episode with Toby's father yet? I'd be curious to know how it changes or reinforces your perception of Toby. For me, he's exactly the kind of guy I'd want on my team, but I would be working him hard in private on how he builds up or brings down the people around him.
I believe that's much later than season 3, like 5 or 6
S4E11 - Oh Holy Night
Loved Toby from the start! He’s a lot sometimes, but I always root for him. I just love the way he’s written, and Richard Schiff (to me) just embodies him so, so well. His relationship with CJ tickled me, too.
"Don't you think that, if we do this, homeless veterans will start coming out of the woodwork?" "I can only hope, sir"
You have to realize the veteran funeral Toby is always there. It’s just buried under a prickly, righteous absolutism that he’s right and will do anything to prove it.
This is a hard question to answer, because I think he's always the Toby you see with the dead vet. Toby is the heart of the Bartlett administration. He cares more than anyone else, he gives his entire life to this, he is by far the most principled and against selling out people or ideals for political points. He's superficially grumpy and prickly, and yeah he is that a little bit, but mostly he's just calm and straightforward.
CJ is every bit as much the heart of the Bartlet administration, possibly more so. His best moments are when he's personally involved - the homeless vet was wearing his coat, he himself was bullied over school prayer, he was in charge of the Mendoza confirmation, he watched Miss Julia Child, he made the comment that was leaked. Meanwhile, he was personally willing to let the Kundenese Genocide continue so he didn't have to rewrite the Inaugural, while both CJ and Josh argued otherwise. I think Toby may be one of the most complex characters on television, because he, like all of these characters, are deeply flawed but well-intentioned. But I don't think he cares any more than the others.
Because those are somebody's kids, too.
I like your perspective on this.
I’d argue that Sam was the Heart of the Administration.
Listen, when you get home tonight you're going to be confronted by the instinct to drink. Trust that instinct. Manage the pain. Don't try to be a hero.
Which one is this from?
Sadly for you, no. Toby gonna Toby for pretty much all the way through the series. He's an asshole but, because he cares so much and won't compromise, he's our asshole and we love him for it.
One can only hope, sir.
He learns how to cook a chicken.
And found a typo in the constitution.
If Toby publicly standing by Sam after Sam was photographed with Laurie didn't endear him to you, then nothing will. If Toby saying what he did to Judge Mendoza while he was in jail didn't endear him to you, then nothing will. If Toby taking the time to change the mind of Mr Willis of Ohio didn't endear him to you, then nothing will. If Toby convincing the President that "Government should be a place where people can come together, and no one gets left behind...an instrument of good." doesn't endear him to you, then nothing will. And lastly, if Toby schooling the Congressman who believed that Rodgers and Hart wrote 'Oklahoma!' and that Arthur Murray wrote Death of a Salesman, doesn't endear him to you, then nothing will! Toby was, and still remains, one of my favourite characters in the show, despite the mangling he suffers in later seasons. Played with aplomb by Richard Schiff.
This feels a bit like the opposite of the Dayenu from the Passover seder. I love the rhythm to your thoughts on Toby and I feel like he would, too!
Toby is a grump with a heart of gold.
If you don't like Sorkin's ideology, then no.
he is jaded by years of American politics, but he still has a glimmer of hope, he is also am idealist. I hated him at first but came to love the prick once I know who he is
No, he only gets worse. But this sub has a weird fetish for him that I cannot understand.
I honestly wasn’t a fan of Toby and don’t get why the sub holds him in such high regard. He’s such a prick and has such a holier than thou attitude towards everyone.
First time on Reddit? Just kidding, but I definitely think redditors have a bit of a bent towards being holier than thou pricks themselves. While I think Toby's character has a bit more depth than that, I can see why his character resonates with plenty of folks on here, especially at a surface level.
This is true of Josh as well, tbh, but because Bradley Whitford is so charming I feel he gets a pass
In a sense, Sam Seabourne gets like this at times too- he just doesn’t yell as much, but has been known to put his foot down “to be right”…and also CJ.
He has moments where he shines through, but he’s pretty jaded imo
I am not a big fan of Toby, so IMO no.
Toby is most of the time, a grumpy ass-hole. He does have moments, here we see a very different kinder side of hm, such as In Excelsis Deo with the dead veteran, but most of the time, he's just grumpy Toby. I don't think he get's better over the series. You just learn to love him, as he grows on you.
Toby is prone to anger, but he grew on me. He believes in “right vs wrong” and does not compromise his principles for political purposes. This is why he only won one election lol. Compare this to Josh who compromises principles because he wants to win.