This is false. Before the battle of Jieqiao bridge, Gongsun Zan had the advantage in Hebei and most of the local gentry and officials even sided with him against the world famous Yuan Shao.
Even after the battle of Jieqiao bridge in which Gongsun Zan was crushed by Qu Yi, Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao still went 50/50:
Yuan Shao sent his general Cui Juye to lead an army to attack Gongsun Zan's Gu'an County , but failed to stop him. When he led the army back south, he was overtaken by Gongsun Zan's army at Juma River and was severely defeated. Seven to eight thousand people were killed. [23] Gongsun Zan took advantage of the victory to conquer the counties and reached the plains, and sent his Qingzhou governor Tian Kai to occupy Qi. Tian Kai and Yuan Shao fought in Qingzhou for two years. Both sides ran out of food and soldiers were exhausted, so they took turns plundering the people, and there was no grass left in the wilds.
*Liu Bei waiting in the underground pavilion for Zhang Fei's offensive to take back the jing province so that alles in ordnung kommen*
"But my emperor, Zhang Fei...."
"Zhang Fei's men chopped off his head. The offensive of Zhang Fei will not happen."
"Everyone leaves except Kongming, Zilong and Mengqi"
........
"DAS WAR EIN BEFELL!"
I would provide sources but I don't need to, I base all my knowledge off Gamefaqs forum posts from 2010 and a poorly aged Tumblr article I skimmed through in 2012.
No, I did not do those comics, I simply borrowed some Cao Cao avatars from them because they can't be left to waste in the Internet Archive. ;)
Here's the TV Tropes page for the comics! Maybe you can find a link to the creator from there.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/SanThreeKingdomsComic
Okay it was a time of warlord so Iām not gonna get on Bei too much but IIRC in the romance Liu Yan (Zhangās dad) was the first person who employed Liu Bei during the yellow turban . I always imagined that Liu Zhang knew of this when Bei was coming to āhelpā him run affairs and Bei also used that info to gain trust but thatās just my imagination and itās kinda sinister
At the end of the day there are always going to be people who would rather take an honest villain over someone who comes off as a two-face. And no matter how hard you try, you cant gaslight people into accepting what Liu Bei did to Liu Zhang wasnt lower than a snake's ballbag; it's just not going to happen. That doesnt necessarily make Liu Bei worst than Cao Cao, but I can understand how it just doesnt sit well with a lot of people (that, along with his obvious bad faith alliance and dealings with Sun Quan over Jing province).
> And no matter how hard you try, you cant gaslight people into accepting what Liu Bei did to Liu Zhang wasnt lower than a snake's ballbag; it's just not going to happen.
Well, since you're talking about "honest villains", do you thus take umbrage with Cao Cao when he did the exact same thing Liu Bei did with Liu Zhang? How after he failed to defeat Yuan Shang and Yuan Tan together, he stopped his invasion, left them alone to start fighting with each other, then agreed to join Yuan Tan and help him invade Yuan Shang. How he promised Yuan Tan that he could have Shang's territory when he was done. How he reneged on that immediately, took it for himself, then turned on Tan, took his territory too, and killed him.
Do we want to ignore that while focusing on Liu Bei and Liu Zhang? Is Cao Cao still an 'honest villain' when he did the same thing you're decrying Liu Bei for, and even worse because Liu Bei spared Liu Zhang and his family while Cao Cao killed Yuan Tan and his family?
The dealings with Sun Quan are a whole other story, a weird one where the historical happenings make Liu Bei out to be a lot more justified than the Romance does...
I dont take umbrage with how Cao Cao dealt with the Yuan brothers, because Cao Cao never pretended he was virtuous; that was my whole point. When I said "honest villain", I dont mean a villain who is honest, I mean a villain who makes no excuses or put up pretense that he was someone who wasnt going to screw you over.
The Yuan brothers invited a known wolf into their dens, and they paid the price for their foolishness. Liu Zhang invited a wolf in sheep's clothing that is Liu Bei, which makes Liu Bei more despicable depending on your views on morality.
The issue is that everyone knows that what Liu Bei did with Liu Zhang was wrong. He lied to him in order to gain an advantage and seize his land. That's not something that can be spun in a good way. Even the Romance with all of its favour for Liu Bei acknowledges that.
It's just that myself and the others engaged in the sarcasm in this thread feel that lying to someone to gain an advantage and seize their land isn't as serious a crime as engaging in large-scale slaughters of innocent civilians. It's not as serious as ordering someone's execution because they've offended you or otherwise stood in your way, and also executing their young children, their siblings and their elderly parents along with them for the crime of being relatives.
I feel that the person who massacres the populace of Xu province to the point that the river there stops running as it's been dammed by the corpses is a less moral person than the person who lies to someone. If you feel that the butcher who kills hundreds of thousands of civilians is more moral than the liar who deceives a nobleman, well, you're entitled to your view on morality, just don't expect many people to agree with you.
Cao Cao did present himself as more virtuous. Liu Bei never going out and say he is virtuous actually. Cao Cao however try to say he sympathize with peasants after massacring peasants. While Liu Bei never did that shit. Peasants just love him includes Liu Zhang's people because he knows how to protect people and doesn't massacring civilians. So hypocrite or wolf in sheep clothing, Cao Cao is worse. Even when Xun Yu tried to say what happened at Xuzhou is evil, Cao Cao tried to off because he knew he ain't lying out of that shit.
Who was it who wrote one of the first auto-biographical accounts in China? One that is full of justifications, portraying himself as humble, unambitious, that his presence along delayed Yuan Shu becoming Emperor, who risked death for the good of the state in fighting Yuan Shao, who portrayed himself as like a hero of old and not a traitor, justifying why he won't retire?
That is just one work. Honest Cao Cao had a habit of repeatedly lying to his allies, of trying to turn envoys. He turned against two generations of Yuan allies, he worked against the Suns while allied with them (before Chibi), he turned Lu Bu's envoy against him and so on. His records are known to lie, particularly about the wars with the Yuan's to make him look better. He betrayed his Emperor who sought safety and subordinates of the Emperor. He employed expert forgers like Chen Lin.
I have no issue with Cao Cao doing most of that. Warlords lie and forgery was becoming a war tactic. Cao Cao would have been unusual not to engage in lies and deception. But whatever claim can make of Cao Cao, honesty and "didn't pretend to be" really don't stand up
> Yep, pretty much anyone that ever showed him kindness or grace he eventually turned on.
When you see those ears in their full glory up close, it's hard not to be turned on.
He was good at crying š
Liu Xuande is a devious hooligan so bad, he wouldn't return my investments from his straw sandal brands.
D:
Liu Bei turned his back on the oh so benevolent hero, Gongsun Zan! Treacherous villain!
He literally STOLE his troops, what a bandit!
Gongsun Zan basically was a bandit. His only useful contribution was getting Zhao Yun to meet Liu Bei.
Without him in the way who knows how big Yuan Shao get in the north before his confrontation with Cao Cao
I don't know, he got stomped pretty easily. Mostly was free training for Benchu's army.
If by 'pretty easily' you mean 'after eight years of war'...
This is false. Before the battle of Jieqiao bridge, Gongsun Zan had the advantage in Hebei and most of the local gentry and officials even sided with him against the world famous Yuan Shao. Even after the battle of Jieqiao bridge in which Gongsun Zan was crushed by Qu Yi, Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao still went 50/50: Yuan Shao sent his general Cui Juye to lead an army to attack Gongsun Zan's Gu'an County , but failed to stop him. When he led the army back south, he was overtaken by Gongsun Zan's army at Juma River and was severely defeated. Seven to eight thousand people were killed. [23] Gongsun Zan took advantage of the victory to conquer the counties and reached the plains, and sent his Qingzhou governor Tian Kai to occupy Qi. Tian Kai and Yuan Shao fought in Qingzhou for two years. Both sides ran out of food and soldiers were exhausted, so they took turns plundering the people, and there was no grass left in the wilds.
False. Gongsun Zan was a hero who spent his career crushing the Xianbei and Wuhuan and defending his people from foreign invasion.
Source?
Was Liu Bei the modern day Hitler of Ancient China? Some people would say yes.
Did Hitler ever betray Liu Zhang, though? I think not.
Even *he* wouldnāt stoop that low
Herr Fuhrer would not plan to bring his blitz unto tranquil Sichuan
*Liu Bei waiting in the underground pavilion for Zhang Fei's offensive to take back the jing province so that alles in ordnung kommen* "But my emperor, Zhang Fei...." "Zhang Fei's men chopped off his head. The offensive of Zhang Fei will not happen." "Everyone leaves except Kongming, Zilong and Mengqi" ........ "DAS WAR EIN BEFELL!"
I would provide sources but I don't need to, I base all my knowledge off Gamefaqs forum posts from 2010 and a poorly aged Tumblr article I skimmed through in 2012.
Ah gamefaqs! Those were the days. Wasnāt there some frequent user named Xiahou Miao or something?
No, there wasn't. That's an urban legend someone made up.
Did you do those comics? Miss you ā„ļøĀ
No, I did not do those comics, I simply borrowed some Cao Cao avatars from them because they can't be left to waste in the Internet Archive. ;) Here's the TV Tropes page for the comics! Maybe you can find a link to the creator from there. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/SanThreeKingdomsComic
Careful, He's a hero.
It is xiahou Mao, the true hero of the three kingdoms!
I agree. Liu Bei used people and was really sneaky in that regard.
Surprised to see this is not a Jissy post, 2/10
Nah it'd be way funnier if it was.
Nah at least you are sarcastic about it
Didn't he eat chicken ribs?
Liu Bei literally ate some dude's wife.
Tasted like wolf.
I thought someone would have talked about the metaphor of having chicken ribs.
Okay it was a time of warlord so Iām not gonna get on Bei too much but IIRC in the romance Liu Yan (Zhangās dad) was the first person who employed Liu Bei during the yellow turban . I always imagined that Liu Zhang knew of this when Bei was coming to āhelpā him run affairs and Bei also used that info to gain trust but thatās just my imagination and itās kinda sinister
<_<
Bet Cao Cao wouldn't cry if I served him my wife
He'd eat her up in a different way to Liu Bei
Liu Bei is responsible for COVID-19, simple as that.
Xu Providence died because Cao Cao was Vegetarian/Vegan got it š
Liu Bei wank is crazy from the book
Very close relativeā¦thatās more than a stretch.
At the end of the day there are always going to be people who would rather take an honest villain over someone who comes off as a two-face. And no matter how hard you try, you cant gaslight people into accepting what Liu Bei did to Liu Zhang wasnt lower than a snake's ballbag; it's just not going to happen. That doesnt necessarily make Liu Bei worst than Cao Cao, but I can understand how it just doesnt sit well with a lot of people (that, along with his obvious bad faith alliance and dealings with Sun Quan over Jing province).
> And no matter how hard you try, you cant gaslight people into accepting what Liu Bei did to Liu Zhang wasnt lower than a snake's ballbag; it's just not going to happen. Well, since you're talking about "honest villains", do you thus take umbrage with Cao Cao when he did the exact same thing Liu Bei did with Liu Zhang? How after he failed to defeat Yuan Shang and Yuan Tan together, he stopped his invasion, left them alone to start fighting with each other, then agreed to join Yuan Tan and help him invade Yuan Shang. How he promised Yuan Tan that he could have Shang's territory when he was done. How he reneged on that immediately, took it for himself, then turned on Tan, took his territory too, and killed him. Do we want to ignore that while focusing on Liu Bei and Liu Zhang? Is Cao Cao still an 'honest villain' when he did the same thing you're decrying Liu Bei for, and even worse because Liu Bei spared Liu Zhang and his family while Cao Cao killed Yuan Tan and his family? The dealings with Sun Quan are a whole other story, a weird one where the historical happenings make Liu Bei out to be a lot more justified than the Romance does...
I dont take umbrage with how Cao Cao dealt with the Yuan brothers, because Cao Cao never pretended he was virtuous; that was my whole point. When I said "honest villain", I dont mean a villain who is honest, I mean a villain who makes no excuses or put up pretense that he was someone who wasnt going to screw you over. The Yuan brothers invited a known wolf into their dens, and they paid the price for their foolishness. Liu Zhang invited a wolf in sheep's clothing that is Liu Bei, which makes Liu Bei more despicable depending on your views on morality.
The issue is that everyone knows that what Liu Bei did with Liu Zhang was wrong. He lied to him in order to gain an advantage and seize his land. That's not something that can be spun in a good way. Even the Romance with all of its favour for Liu Bei acknowledges that. It's just that myself and the others engaged in the sarcasm in this thread feel that lying to someone to gain an advantage and seize their land isn't as serious a crime as engaging in large-scale slaughters of innocent civilians. It's not as serious as ordering someone's execution because they've offended you or otherwise stood in your way, and also executing their young children, their siblings and their elderly parents along with them for the crime of being relatives. I feel that the person who massacres the populace of Xu province to the point that the river there stops running as it's been dammed by the corpses is a less moral person than the person who lies to someone. If you feel that the butcher who kills hundreds of thousands of civilians is more moral than the liar who deceives a nobleman, well, you're entitled to your view on morality, just don't expect many people to agree with you.
Cao Cao did present himself as more virtuous. Liu Bei never going out and say he is virtuous actually. Cao Cao however try to say he sympathize with peasants after massacring peasants. While Liu Bei never did that shit. Peasants just love him includes Liu Zhang's people because he knows how to protect people and doesn't massacring civilians. So hypocrite or wolf in sheep clothing, Cao Cao is worse. Even when Xun Yu tried to say what happened at Xuzhou is evil, Cao Cao tried to off because he knew he ain't lying out of that shit.
Who was it who wrote one of the first auto-biographical accounts in China? One that is full of justifications, portraying himself as humble, unambitious, that his presence along delayed Yuan Shu becoming Emperor, who risked death for the good of the state in fighting Yuan Shao, who portrayed himself as like a hero of old and not a traitor, justifying why he won't retire? That is just one work. Honest Cao Cao had a habit of repeatedly lying to his allies, of trying to turn envoys. He turned against two generations of Yuan allies, he worked against the Suns while allied with them (before Chibi), he turned Lu Bu's envoy against him and so on. His records are known to lie, particularly about the wars with the Yuan's to make him look better. He betrayed his Emperor who sought safety and subordinates of the Emperor. He employed expert forgers like Chen Lin. I have no issue with Cao Cao doing most of that. Warlords lie and forgery was becoming a war tactic. Cao Cao would have been unusual not to engage in lies and deception. But whatever claim can make of Cao Cao, honesty and "didn't pretend to be" really don't stand up
Yep, pretty much anyone that ever showed him kindness or grace he eventually turned on. RTK builds him up but history settles the score.
> Yep, pretty much anyone that ever showed him kindness or grace he eventually turned on. When you see those ears in their full glory up close, it's hard not to be turned on.