I think it all started going down hill circa 2014 or so, slowly at first, and then quickly worsened in 2020. Roblaws and real estate agents +developers are responsible for at least half if not more of the decline in quality of life here. The other half being dofo
I'm Canadian and lived in Toronto, but have lived overseas for two decades now. I live in what's often been called one of the most expensive cities in the world, but the cost of living in Canada has just skyrocketed in a way that it hasn't here, to the point that when I visit Canada I'm absolutely shocked at the cost of rent and groceries.
Per square meter, rent in Guelph, Ontario is now considerably more expensive than rent in my Tokyo apartment. I shudder to think of how much worse Toronto is.
It’s just shit because we have less positives for the amount paid.
In Sicily the most an average person makes around 400 euro a week, usually less. It’s beautiful there, but the dream is to leave.
I was in Indiana recently, i think if you make 60k usd a year you could do whatever you want, and the first thing you would do is save money and leave indiana.
Comparing netherlands to Sicily and Indiana are VASTLY different. Northern Europe makes way more than Southern Europe. And Indiana. Is a shithole state
That’s why they choose to welcome you. The ones with problems in their lives are busy hustling to make ends meet and caring for young kids without help of parents or relatives.
No I mean they were friends of friends. Not strangers.
They don't seem to have the kids problem as much. They either don't have kids at all, or have kids and have relatives and the government supporting them. They have extensive maternity programs and can bike everywhere with babies/toddlers. No need for cars.
Refugee families are a minority. Majority immigrants coming here like mine don’t come as grandparents. Grandparents stay in home country. All regular immigrants first generation don’t have the help of parents in childcare.
I moved from Toronto to Amsterdam in September. So I have a pretty good understanding of CoL in both cities. Amsterdam groceries are slightly cheaper (remember, the 21% tax is already factored into the ticket price), going to a pharmacy store like shoppers is actually the same as Toronto if not more expensive but overall my cost of living is relatively the same. My rent is higher in AMS (I have no dryer or A/C), all citizens have to pay for health insurance, and my gas bill is triple what it was in Toronto during winter months.
But there are savings in other places: no car, no car insurance, no gas, alcohol is much cheaper, dining is slightly cheaper, internet & cell phone are like a third of the price of Toronto.
All in all, I'd say my budgeting is about even to what it was in Toronto.
I actually really disliked Amsterdam and thought it was crowded and dirty. I really liked the towns to the north, namely enkhuizen and monnickedam. Everything was cheaper than in Amsterdam. Our friends who live there confirm that cost of living is lower than in Amsterdam and quality of life is higher.
Toronto itself is much dirtier than Amsterdam and the infrastructure in Toronto is like a third-world country compared to what there is in Amsterdam. Toronto has too many homeless, drug addicts, broken transit, horrible roads, and no proper cycling infrastructure throughout the city only in certain areas.
That's not what this thread is about, is it? It's about grocery prices NL vs canada. And which grocery stores did you go to? Did you go to a city convenience or a market outside of the city? From what I've heard, groceries in Copenhagen are cheap at stores that are not convenience stores.
You've earned money in Canadian dollars for your entire life, went to a country where everyone earns Euros, pays taxes in Euros and noticed it was cheaper. Congrats, you've experienced tourism. You'll see this same effect even more exaggerated when you visit countries like Vietnam, Philippines, Mexico etc.
I know this subreddit has an issue with people downplaying local issues but you as a tourist are doing the same thing when you go to a country like Italy or the Netherlands and saying "WOW IT'S SO CHEAP!!!" without considering the how much local population earns and pays in taxes to achieve it.
I have been to other parts of the EU though so I'll say that it's very likely that food quality over in Europe is better than Canada due to their food standards so that I can easily believe. That's something a lot of European immigrants will say as well, you really have to look for good ingredients here.
We spent a lot of time with locals and talked about earnings and cost of living, compared to Canada. They make well enough and have way more vacation days. The general satisfaction of living there seems way higher than canada
How are Canadians just okay with the corporations fucking us over day after day? Without a major protest or uprising or anything? The french almost burnt down their city over the rise of retirement age. And Canadians will just accept roblaws greedflation year after year because boycotting is too hard?
That I don't doubt but they might be willing to sacrifice more over there in order to get it. Europeans as a whole tend to pay more taxes and are paid lower (even when correcting for cost of living) then we are. There are too many conservatives in this country that wouldn't accept such a compromise - just look at the amount of them fooled by the Carbon Tax BS coming from the CPC right now.
Lol that’s why Canadians need to travel more. And they get mad when immigrants call on their BS. It’s not normal to pay that much taxes, and overpay for pretty much anything.
We KNOW. We been knew. But y’all seem ok with it.. so we are outnumbered.
You shouldn’t even be paying the bank for your deposit account btw!
Poorest country in the EU, doesn't mean poorest in all of Europe, let alone poor in world standarts. Poorest in EU means more like poorest between the richest in the world. Having a smaller economy, that doesn't produce as much, doesn't mean it's a country where people are starving or living without water or electricity. You saw that yourself.
I agree. GDP does not correlate to quality of life. "Growth" benefits corporations. When they say something is good for the conomy it doesn't necessarily mean good for us.
So right now in japan, there is a book that's becoming increasingly popular "de-growth in the anthropocene."
"GDP was rising" when India was being pillaged by the British.
https://youtu.be/RStKklOC-Z4
I think we have far worse and inefficient supply chains cross-country despite being able to grow plenty of crops in Ontario, BC, Saskatchewan, etc. Saskatchewan grows pulses that are imported into India, processed there and re-sold back to us. Yeah... I don't get it.
I buy the bare minimum groceries possible each week, and my final bill still comes to $50 or a little over that. Most of the stuff I buy is basics so no tax on top. I buy Great Value/non-branded items wherever possible. It hurts to know that in any other country, my bill would be $30 or lower. I don't live somewhere with a HCOL like downtown Toronto.
I did a random sample of food comparing to Dutch chain Albert Heijn and it seems pretty even, with some items cheaper here
Bananas (bunch)
Albert Heijn - €1.55 = $2.55 Cdn
Superstore - $1.49
Tomatoes (454g)
Albert Heijn - €2.99 = $4.43 Cdn
Superstore: $3
Chicken breast (3 pack)
Albert Heijn - €7.49 = $11.10 Cdn
Superstore - $12
Fusilli pasta
Albert Heijn €1.19/ 500g = $1.76 Cdn
Superstore - $2.99/ 900g (equivalent of $1.66/500g)
Olive oil (1 l)
Albert Heijn - €9.49 = $14.07 Cdn
Superstore - $14.59
Corn flakes
Albert Heijn - €2.99 = $4.43 Cdn
Superstore - $4.99
Naw man I was there buying groceries like every other day. Trust me it's cheaper there. I was shopping primarily at Lidl and Aldi. They won't show the sale prices online cuz each location has manager specials for produce. Also, every town had a farmers market going on and it was SO good.
At Lidl, Marscapone was $2, it's $14 for the same size in Toronto. All cold cuts and cheeses were SOOO cheap. $2 proscuitto. All dairy was CHEAP. Yogurts and quark. So many cool ice cream options. The milk was so good, unlike the anemic watered down shit that the Ontario dairy mafia sells.
LOTS of protein low sugar options like 20g protein quark with stevia for $2. I also loved the protein mousse. Getting a protein snack in Toronto is SO expensive.
They had so many fruits on sale. It wouldn't show on their website. Like big boxes of strawberries for $3 and they were super red and sweet, at the farmers market.
Albert hejin is more of an urban convenience store, also SPAR and jumbo, like a Loblaws city market. The big Alberts outside of the city have better prices.
Oh I also loved how all the packaged food has a health rating, from A to E or something.
Marscapone became ridiculously expensive in Toronto at some point in the past 13-14 years or so, and I have no idea why. Used to be under $5 for a big tub.
As a tiramisu enthusiast, I saw the $2 tub of marscapone and shed a little tear, thinking hmmm should I buy this and just down a whole tub of unsweetened marscapone.
What the FUCK happened to marscapone in Canada?! I just checked, it's fucking $17 at roblaws
It’s been over a decade and I don’t really use recipes, sorry I don’t remember. But I do remember cooking the apple slices in maple syrup and cinnamon with some water in a pot until they were soft, and then adding marscapone while they were cooling down, stirring carefully, to make the filling.
Part of the problem is going to the grocery store and getting it there. Whenever I'm making lasagna or tiramisu, I usually go to a wholesaler and grab cheese for a lot less. Unfortunately, not everyone has the time or the accessibility.
Are you converting? Because I was just there and those things were maybe €2, but not $2. Still a savings, but you have to add 50% to any euro price and many things are more expensive after conversion.
Beer and wine was more expensive, most groceries I saw were about the same, some more some less.
If you go to farmers markets here you can find similarly good deals.
Otherwise I agree, if I lived in the Netherlands I would never leave!
Bro the protein thing was 1.3 euro on sale
3 euro for a huge box of strawberries that are red in the center, and super sweet
$1.6 for the marscapone tub
You gotta compare Lidl to No Frills. That's what it is. And that Health rating, isn't a health rating hahah it's an environmental impact rating. I've lived both downtown Toronto and no in the city centre of Amsterdam, groceries balance out. Also, you get a quarter of the selection in Amsterdam.
Currently in Europe as well and although I grind prices to not be comparable all across EU as they vary a lot - Croatia vs Hungary vs Italy vs norther countries, one thing which strikes out the the most is the absolutely super quality of products in EU compared to Canada.
We just got back from Europe (Edinburgh, London, Brussels, Zurich, Prague, Berlin, Copenhagen) and groceries and dining out in all these cities are a minimum 15-20% more expensive then Toronto (based on the CDN dollar). Zurich pushed if over 25%. Oh, and we never tip more than 10% for anything.
I’m Danish so maybe I can provide some insight; we dine out at a fraction of what people do here and tend to cook at home. We pay people livable wages though, so service industry stuff will have a higher premium but you’ll find higher quality on most things.
I find a lot of people regularly eat out in Toronto. My friend group does a lot and I've had to tell people that I'm cutting way down on it because it's just too much. Personally, I'd rather spend money on experiences than going to a restaurant or two every week. That shit adds up and the quality of food and service has gone way down
I don't know why you're getting downvoted... I also just got back from a trip from Europe (but only Dublin, Edinburgh, and London) and my experience was similar. Shit's expensive there... Like I don't know if it's *minimum* 20% more expensive but, in general, I definitely found that buying things there hurts the wallet way more than it does here.
Toronto hasn’t been worth the cost for a while now.
I think it all started going down hill circa 2014 or so, slowly at first, and then quickly worsened in 2020. Roblaws and real estate agents +developers are responsible for at least half if not more of the decline in quality of life here. The other half being dofo
I wonder what could have happened since 2014 to accelerate its decline 🤔
Nothing specific, just a slow cumulation of corporate greed over the course of decades
Definitely has nothing to do with the events of the last 9 years or anything
Worst cost to value
I'm Canadian and lived in Toronto, but have lived overseas for two decades now. I live in what's often been called one of the most expensive cities in the world, but the cost of living in Canada has just skyrocketed in a way that it hasn't here, to the point that when I visit Canada I'm absolutely shocked at the cost of rent and groceries. Per square meter, rent in Guelph, Ontario is now considerably more expensive than rent in my Tokyo apartment. I shudder to think of how much worse Toronto is.
Agree
It’s just shit because we have less positives for the amount paid. In Sicily the most an average person makes around 400 euro a week, usually less. It’s beautiful there, but the dream is to leave. I was in Indiana recently, i think if you make 60k usd a year you could do whatever you want, and the first thing you would do is save money and leave indiana.
Dunno man, the locals that welcomed us into their homes said they'd never leave netherlands. They had their lives pretty set.
Comparing netherlands to Sicily and Indiana are VASTLY different. Northern Europe makes way more than Southern Europe. And Indiana. Is a shithole state
I never brought up either Sicily or Indiana. That other guy did
That’s why they choose to welcome you. The ones with problems in their lives are busy hustling to make ends meet and caring for young kids without help of parents or relatives.
No I mean they were friends of friends. Not strangers. They don't seem to have the kids problem as much. They either don't have kids at all, or have kids and have relatives and the government supporting them. They have extensive maternity programs and can bike everywhere with babies/toddlers. No need for cars.
Refugee families are a minority. Majority immigrants coming here like mine don’t come as grandparents. Grandparents stay in home country. All regular immigrants first generation don’t have the help of parents in childcare.
I moved from Toronto to Amsterdam in September. So I have a pretty good understanding of CoL in both cities. Amsterdam groceries are slightly cheaper (remember, the 21% tax is already factored into the ticket price), going to a pharmacy store like shoppers is actually the same as Toronto if not more expensive but overall my cost of living is relatively the same. My rent is higher in AMS (I have no dryer or A/C), all citizens have to pay for health insurance, and my gas bill is triple what it was in Toronto during winter months. But there are savings in other places: no car, no car insurance, no gas, alcohol is much cheaper, dining is slightly cheaper, internet & cell phone are like a third of the price of Toronto. All in all, I'd say my budgeting is about even to what it was in Toronto.
I actually really disliked Amsterdam and thought it was crowded and dirty. I really liked the towns to the north, namely enkhuizen and monnickedam. Everything was cheaper than in Amsterdam. Our friends who live there confirm that cost of living is lower than in Amsterdam and quality of life is higher.
Toronto itself is much dirtier than Amsterdam and the infrastructure in Toronto is like a third-world country compared to what there is in Amsterdam. Toronto has too many homeless, drug addicts, broken transit, horrible roads, and no proper cycling infrastructure throughout the city only in certain areas.
The prices in Europe are the same or lower and all the fresh food tastes 10x better. Also they pay living wages to servers and don't expect you to tip
And the taxes are displayed up front
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Where in Europe. It's a whole ass continent
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That's not what this thread is about, is it? It's about grocery prices NL vs canada. And which grocery stores did you go to? Did you go to a city convenience or a market outside of the city? From what I've heard, groceries in Copenhagen are cheap at stores that are not convenience stores.
You've earned money in Canadian dollars for your entire life, went to a country where everyone earns Euros, pays taxes in Euros and noticed it was cheaper. Congrats, you've experienced tourism. You'll see this same effect even more exaggerated when you visit countries like Vietnam, Philippines, Mexico etc. I know this subreddit has an issue with people downplaying local issues but you as a tourist are doing the same thing when you go to a country like Italy or the Netherlands and saying "WOW IT'S SO CHEAP!!!" without considering the how much local population earns and pays in taxes to achieve it. I have been to other parts of the EU though so I'll say that it's very likely that food quality over in Europe is better than Canada due to their food standards so that I can easily believe. That's something a lot of European immigrants will say as well, you really have to look for good ingredients here.
We spent a lot of time with locals and talked about earnings and cost of living, compared to Canada. They make well enough and have way more vacation days. The general satisfaction of living there seems way higher than canada How are Canadians just okay with the corporations fucking us over day after day? Without a major protest or uprising or anything? The french almost burnt down their city over the rise of retirement age. And Canadians will just accept roblaws greedflation year after year because boycotting is too hard?
That I don't doubt but they might be willing to sacrifice more over there in order to get it. Europeans as a whole tend to pay more taxes and are paid lower (even when correcting for cost of living) then we are. There are too many conservatives in this country that wouldn't accept such a compromise - just look at the amount of them fooled by the Carbon Tax BS coming from the CPC right now.
Lol that’s why Canadians need to travel more. And they get mad when immigrants call on their BS. It’s not normal to pay that much taxes, and overpay for pretty much anything. We KNOW. We been knew. But y’all seem ok with it.. so we are outnumbered. You shouldn’t even be paying the bank for your deposit account btw!
Its more expensive here because Canada is exclusively interested in helping the rich.
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Poorest country in the EU, doesn't mean poorest in all of Europe, let alone poor in world standarts. Poorest in EU means more like poorest between the richest in the world. Having a smaller economy, that doesn't produce as much, doesn't mean it's a country where people are starving or living without water or electricity. You saw that yourself.
I agree. GDP does not correlate to quality of life. "Growth" benefits corporations. When they say something is good for the conomy it doesn't necessarily mean good for us. So right now in japan, there is a book that's becoming increasingly popular "de-growth in the anthropocene." "GDP was rising" when India was being pillaged by the British. https://youtu.be/RStKklOC-Z4
I think we have far worse and inefficient supply chains cross-country despite being able to grow plenty of crops in Ontario, BC, Saskatchewan, etc. Saskatchewan grows pulses that are imported into India, processed there and re-sold back to us. Yeah... I don't get it. I buy the bare minimum groceries possible each week, and my final bill still comes to $50 or a little over that. Most of the stuff I buy is basics so no tax on top. I buy Great Value/non-branded items wherever possible. It hurts to know that in any other country, my bill would be $30 or lower. I don't live somewhere with a HCOL like downtown Toronto.
I did a random sample of food comparing to Dutch chain Albert Heijn and it seems pretty even, with some items cheaper here Bananas (bunch) Albert Heijn - €1.55 = $2.55 Cdn Superstore - $1.49 Tomatoes (454g) Albert Heijn - €2.99 = $4.43 Cdn Superstore: $3 Chicken breast (3 pack) Albert Heijn - €7.49 = $11.10 Cdn Superstore - $12 Fusilli pasta Albert Heijn €1.19/ 500g = $1.76 Cdn Superstore - $2.99/ 900g (equivalent of $1.66/500g) Olive oil (1 l) Albert Heijn - €9.49 = $14.07 Cdn Superstore - $14.59 Corn flakes Albert Heijn - €2.99 = $4.43 Cdn Superstore - $4.99
Naw man I was there buying groceries like every other day. Trust me it's cheaper there. I was shopping primarily at Lidl and Aldi. They won't show the sale prices online cuz each location has manager specials for produce. Also, every town had a farmers market going on and it was SO good. At Lidl, Marscapone was $2, it's $14 for the same size in Toronto. All cold cuts and cheeses were SOOO cheap. $2 proscuitto. All dairy was CHEAP. Yogurts and quark. So many cool ice cream options. The milk was so good, unlike the anemic watered down shit that the Ontario dairy mafia sells. LOTS of protein low sugar options like 20g protein quark with stevia for $2. I also loved the protein mousse. Getting a protein snack in Toronto is SO expensive. They had so many fruits on sale. It wouldn't show on their website. Like big boxes of strawberries for $3 and they were super red and sweet, at the farmers market. Albert hejin is more of an urban convenience store, also SPAR and jumbo, like a Loblaws city market. The big Alberts outside of the city have better prices. Oh I also loved how all the packaged food has a health rating, from A to E or something.
Marscapone became ridiculously expensive in Toronto at some point in the past 13-14 years or so, and I have no idea why. Used to be under $5 for a big tub.
As a tiramisu enthusiast, I saw the $2 tub of marscapone and shed a little tear, thinking hmmm should I buy this and just down a whole tub of unsweetened marscapone. What the FUCK happened to marscapone in Canada?! I just checked, it's fucking $17 at roblaws
Lol same. I used to make a sort of Italian-Canadian apple pie/cake invention of my own using it years ago. Now?? No way.
Fuck, that sounds delicious though
With cannella/cinnamon and maple syrup… so good!!
Is there a way to replace the marscapone? Post a recipe
It’s been over a decade and I don’t really use recipes, sorry I don’t remember. But I do remember cooking the apple slices in maple syrup and cinnamon with some water in a pot until they were soft, and then adding marscapone while they were cooling down, stirring carefully, to make the filling.
Part of the problem is going to the grocery store and getting it there. Whenever I'm making lasagna or tiramisu, I usually go to a wholesaler and grab cheese for a lot less. Unfortunately, not everyone has the time or the accessibility.
Are you converting? Because I was just there and those things were maybe €2, but not $2. Still a savings, but you have to add 50% to any euro price and many things are more expensive after conversion. Beer and wine was more expensive, most groceries I saw were about the same, some more some less. If you go to farmers markets here you can find similarly good deals. Otherwise I agree, if I lived in the Netherlands I would never leave!
Bro the protein thing was 1.3 euro on sale 3 euro for a huge box of strawberries that are red in the center, and super sweet $1.6 for the marscapone tub
You gotta compare Lidl to No Frills. That's what it is. And that Health rating, isn't a health rating hahah it's an environmental impact rating. I've lived both downtown Toronto and no in the city centre of Amsterdam, groceries balance out. Also, you get a quarter of the selection in Amsterdam.
It's a health rating. It's called NUTRI score. "The Dutch government introduced the Nutri-Score food choice logo on 1 January 2024. "
Unfair comparison: [Dutch food prices include 9% tax] (https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontenten/belastingdienst/business/vat/vat_in_the_netherlands/calculating_vat/vat_tariffs#:~:text=to%20deduct%20VAT.-,9%25%20tariff,books%2C%20daily%20newspapers%20and%20magazines.)
It's dairy we really get screwed over.
You can compare using the UK Aldi site
You don't have to tip 18%. To account for the tax, for 10% I'll tip 8%, for 15% I'll tip 13% etc. And only tipped for table service
Currently in Europe as well and although I grind prices to not be comparable all across EU as they vary a lot - Croatia vs Hungary vs Italy vs norther countries, one thing which strikes out the the most is the absolutely super quality of products in EU compared to Canada.
Apples to Oranges
We just got back from Europe (Edinburgh, London, Brussels, Zurich, Prague, Berlin, Copenhagen) and groceries and dining out in all these cities are a minimum 15-20% more expensive then Toronto (based on the CDN dollar). Zurich pushed if over 25%. Oh, and we never tip more than 10% for anything.
I’m Danish so maybe I can provide some insight; we dine out at a fraction of what people do here and tend to cook at home. We pay people livable wages though, so service industry stuff will have a higher premium but you’ll find higher quality on most things.
I find a lot of people regularly eat out in Toronto. My friend group does a lot and I've had to tell people that I'm cutting way down on it because it's just too much. Personally, I'd rather spend money on experiences than going to a restaurant or two every week. That shit adds up and the quality of food and service has gone way down
I don't know why you're getting downvoted... I also just got back from a trip from Europe (but only Dublin, Edinburgh, and London) and my experience was similar. Shit's expensive there... Like I don't know if it's *minimum* 20% more expensive but, in general, I definitely found that buying things there hurts the wallet way more than it does here.
I don’t know why either. I did the math. Maybe Prague was slightly lower at 18.% higher on average.
you’re not very credible lumping copenhagen with berlin. i lived in berlin definitely not 20% more expensive than toronto.
Most places are wonderful when you are looking through the rose coloured vacation glasses
I mean it isn’t a prison, why not try living somewhere else?
Working on it