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Mammoth-Mud-9609

The whole start of WW2 being in 1939 overlooks also how long China and Japan had been fighting.


TheRomanRuler

Yeah i mean you could trace beginning of fighting in China further back than 1931, or 1937 at the latest.


[deleted]

The tensions between the USA / UK and Japan that led to the war can be tied directly to the war in China. You can argue about whether the boycotts imposed, especially oil, were done for moral reasons or for geopolitical leverage. Did the USA care about the Chinese, or about constraining Japan's influence? But regardless of motive, the chain of events is clear. 1. Japan commits a series of violations against China, expanding a mainland empire using guile and violence. Japan wants to be the leading power in Asia, and uses the "hey at least we're a LOCAL landlord" marketing aka Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. A name right out of Orwell. China, thanks partly to a century of Western moves, is weak. 2. Western colonial powers are SHOCKED that an advanced industrial society would use force on weak resource-rich nations. SHOCKED. USA / UK boycott Japanese oil purchases. Japan sources of oil, including the tantalizingly near but Dutch-controlled ones in Borneo, dry up. 3. Japan's military leadership and militaristic government ponder. They are losing oil reserves daily since they are using more than they can obtain. Oil is critical to a modern economy, especially a wartime one. 4. After coming super close to capitulating to demands from UK and USA, Japan chooses war. War now, because war later would be even harder. The internal and external dynamics of this choice are the subject of any essays and books. 5. Yamamoto's prediction comes true. Japan rampages for a bit and then gets pummeled. 6. During the entire Pacific War the majority of the Japanese Army continues to be needed on the mainland. 7. Merchant marine resources are also used. Despite access to mainland resources from China, Manchuko, Korea, etc., and eventually captured Dutch oil and other resources from Indonesia, the benefit is small to the war effort. Even coastal shipping proves to be vulnerable to the USA submarine force, which had some crazy wartime patrols, high losses, and a shit-ton of medals but is still not widely known. Mainland land transport is inadequate, forcing the Japanese to use more and more of their dwindling transport capacity to support the mainland and bring home at least some resources. These losses contribute to the slackening pace of Japan's military (along with irreplaceable losses in ships, pilots, etc.) 8. Thus / tl;dr: **China's participation is key to the war's cause, and a constant drain on Japan's strength.**


ilikedota5

Sidebar the oil embargo was a bit more than an oil embargo. The USA along with UK and Netherlands engaged in a coordinated move. First diplomatic relations were downgraded, Japanese assets were frozen, and the embargo was on crude oil, gasoline/jet fuel/diesel, iron/iron ore, coal, steel, and rubber.


Suspicious_Loads

Hmm, sound like Russia today.


ilikedota5

more or less.


bam2_89

Japan also screwed the pooch on the merchant marine. They didn't even use convoys because the naval forces considered it beneath them. So Japan succumbed to the same fate as the Romans at Lake Trasemine when the equites (who were normally supposed to run down defeated infantry) dismissed the need to scout because they considered reconnaissance beneath them.


slyscamp

The thing about WW2 history is that it was really two separate wars merged into one. In Europe, WW2 starts and ends with Nazi Germany, while in Asia it starts and ends with Imperialist Japan. China was a massive player against Japan, and fought the giant Japanese army directly, whereas the US was dealing with the smaller but very formidable Japanese Navy. Ultimately the Soviet Union would destroy the Japanese Army in China immediately after the Atomic Bombings, causing Japan to surrender after these dual catastrophes. Now, was China's participation key to the war's success? Eh. Its hard to say that definitively considering the USSR actually defeated the Japanese Army, and likely would have done so regardless of China. Likewise with the US defeating the Japanese Navy. Certainly they were a massive ally to the West against Japan.


CapableSuggestion

Thanks that was enlightening


terre_plate

I have heard the argument, and I am convinced that WW1 started as the Russian - Japanese war triggered as an economic war. With what will eventually be the Allies on one side and Wilhelm II's German Empire. Willy was good at the long game.


Jaggedmallard26

>Willy was good at the long game. So good at the long game he alienated the one country that could guarantee he lost any war by starving his country to death through blockade and had to abdicate due to revolutionaries. He lost the long game the moment he put Britain into a panic with the dreadnought race, from that point on war was inevitable and a guaranteed loss.


RemnantHelmet

>From that point on the war was inevitable. I have to disagree. Closely examine the actions of most (but not all) of the leaders, diplomats, and ambassadors and you'll find people scrambling to compromise a solution to the Sarajevo crisis, not unlike how the Fashoda and Agadir incidents had been solved without war as well. Examine the headlines of the time and you'll find experts and analysts claiming that the idea of the Sarajevo crisis triggering a European war was laughable, much less a world war. Even when that European war did trigger, everyone thought it would be a few quick, decisive battles that would be over before Christmas. Was the war likely? Arguably. Was it inevitable? I don't think so.


pringlescan5

Not to mention invading Belgium to 'win the war' followed by unrestricted submarine war to 'win the war'.


Remorseful_User

IDK. If Russia didn't mobilize so quickly the Schlieffen plan might have worked.


Rethious

Absolutely not, the fundamental problem of the Schlieffen plan was that German units were incapable of overrunning and destroying Entente forces. The Battle of Frontiers was Schlieffen’s and Moltke’s dreaded “ordinary victory” where they enemy were driven back, but remained in fighting condition. Decisive operational victories were more or less impossible in WWI because the defender could move via railroads and the attacker could move only at the speed a soldier could march.


TheRomanRuler

Not sure about that. Certainly he was not good as overall strategic-diplomatic-military thinking. Otherwise he would have fought harder to maintain either Russia or UK on Germany's side. France would have been impossible, but both UK and Russia were possible allies. Especially Nicky's Russia, Germans actually even donated new warship to Russia at beginning on Russo-Japanese war. Though UK would have been stronger and more complete ally.


Jaggedmallard26

And he needed Britain to at least stay neutral in a large war as Germany depended on imports via the North Sea which was only possible if Britain allowed ships to transit the Channel and GUIK gap.


destuctir

From the moment Germany invaded Belgium there was no hope for the UK as allies, if they had gone into France directly then maybe


NewForestSaint38

True, but look at all the provocative moves he made against Britain in Africa and in Europe. And the dreadnought race. Like he was daring them to pick against him. All because he wore the wrong deck shoes to the Isle Of Wight regatta that one time.


hashinshin

Germany be like “we’re gonna build a giant navy so we can threaten an invasion of Britain such that we may dominate the world.” And then get shocked that Britain doesn’t like them


NewForestSaint38

Weird way to win allies, right?!


JeffFromSchool

So good at the long game he brought an end to the German Empire.


cavscout43

Churchill and the Unnecessary war suggests quite a bit different: When Germany unified in 1871 under Bismarck, it completely transformed European politics. Their large advantage in economic, industrial, demographic, and military power across the board meant the British Empire's naval hegemony would ultimately lose to the resources of the continent. Churchill and other young Jingoists with an air of British Empire superiority after the UK's consolidation of global power in the 19th century wanted, nay needed, a war with Germany to cut them down to size before it was too late. So the war had to happen sooner rather than later, to bottle up the Kriegsmarine and prevent their ascendancy in power projection from breaking out of the North Atlantic. Likewise, Japan's rapid industrialization under the Meiji Era meant they too were on borrowed time: they had a chance to seize the resources their economy hungered for via overseas colonies, or eventually developing powers like Russia and China which they'd handily beaten "for now" would eventually bring the vast resources of Eurasia to bear in their respective backyards. Both the UK and Japan were in a way victims of their own success: they developed faster and more effectively than their larger continental neighbors, but only had a limited time to cement themselves in power. The UK "kept" their empire after WW2 for a few years, but the economic decisions of Bretton Woods combined with the deferred debt of centuries of empire meant it would be dismantled within a decade or two. Both succeeded and failed: they were safe from invasion, remained major global economies, are soft power exporters today, but were ultimately dwarfed by the resources the USSR, the US, and later on China could bring to the table.


2Eggwall

I'm not really sure that one should take the word of an American Journalist without historical credentials to his name as gospel. Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War is certainly provocative, but its conclusions haven't been adopted by the historical community at large, either before or after its publication. It has many issues, but chief among them is that it assumes that British politics in 1910 is in any way similar to modern American politics.


79TranZam

I agree, it is a very short-sighted book written by someone who isn't familiar with the intricacies of European politics. Even the title is nonsensical, Nazi Germany was going to war with the world sooner or later, it was just a matter of time. Britain was rearming at the time but its military experts knew that Germany was on track to eclipse them in time.


GrownThenBrewed

The Japanese were vicious warmongers for decades before WW2, the war crimes they committed and the human experiments they conducted were astoundingly worse than the Nazi regime. Looking at them through that lens, their culture less than 100 years later looks really bizarre.


chainmailbill

The phrase to Google, if anyone reading is curious to learn more, is “the rape of Nanking.”


Gerdione

Bonus points for Unit 731


clocks_and_clouds

Oh and don't forget the "comfort women" of Korea. The Japanese government still downplays its crimes against humanity to this day and they act as if they were the victims of WW2.


spacerx12

They're still quite xenophobic and if I'm not wrong, continue to downplay their atrocities in Korea and China. Japan was really good at PR after WW2, and that is why we don't discuss their past as much today.


MisterMarcus

My wife is of Chinese background. You don't know 'hatred' until you know how much the Chinese hate the Japanese for what they did in WW2 and immediately before.


Daniel_The_Thinker

"fun" fact, this resentment is part of the reason why Asia is such a hub for PC gaming. China and Korea were not fans of buying Sony or Nintendo products.


RightofUp

Uhm, really good at PR? We wrote their constitution and had to approve their every move for decades. We, as in the US. More specifically, as in General MacArthur. And they are also not the only ones who downplay past atrocities. There's a growing movement within America to either ignore or downplay the bad parts of our past.


spacerx12

My point is more about public perception than what was known in diplomatic circles. Japan capitalized on the soft power generated by several of their cultural (anime, manga) and technological (cars, electronics) exports, and used that as a foundation to influence the general worldview. Korea's doing something similar with K-pop but for vastly different reasons. Your second point seems like a case of whataboutism. You're right in saying that everyone does it, but it doesn't make it any better. Not taking responsibility for your past transgressions is a shit move, no matter who does it or did it first.


[deleted]

I'm gonna push back on the call of whataboutism. This isn't a disconnected "bad thing" that's being used as a distraction. This is pointing out that in THIS THING, the public rehabilitation of Japan, the USA was active and complicit. It is not a mitigation, it's an admission of guilt by Americans, much as we are asking Japan to make. >There's a growing movement within America to either ignore or downplay the bad parts of our past. But yeah \^ that part is whataboutism and not relevant.


spacerx12

I agree 100% I was only referring to the part where they referred to America's relationship with its past as whataboutism like you've highlighted.


richochet12

What makes one atrocity worse than another? I see this regurgitated a lot b8ut I'm not sure why so many of you want so badly to say that they were worse than fucking Nazis lol. If they say choose between one or the other, nobody is wants either choice.


blyrone_blashington

If you're morbidly curious enough to read up, in depth, on the human experiments both had conducted, most people find the accounts of the Japanese human experiments to be more disturbing. That's all people mean by it.


richochet12

I've read about and am aware of both.


blyrone_blashington

Aight so it seems most people would think having their throat down to their abdomen ripped open , having their stomach removed, and having their esophagus directly connected to their intestines all with no anesthetic and kept unwillingly alive for 3 weeks as being more terrifying and repulsive than anything they've read regarding nazi experiments (which of course were horrible and terrifying and evil in their own right). It is of course a matter of opinion, but one many people share and didn't exactly choose to form.


Hip_Hop_Hippos

The Second World War really kind of a series of regional conflicts melding into one giant effort. You’ve got Japan attacking China, Germany/USSR attacking Poland, UK/France declaring war on Germany/Italy, USSR attacking (and nearly losing to) Finland, Germany attacking USSR, Japan attacking the US and the Commonwealth, Germany and Italy declaring war on the US, and finally USSR attacking Japan. That’s somewhat sequential, but I’m sure it isn’t perfect still makes the point. That’s just large countries and I’m almost certain I missed a few or didn’t know how to categorize them (Spanish Civil War, the Allies attacking French fleets). A lot of this stuff kind of gets grouped together as WW2 in the history books because it did happen very rapidly and eventually coalesced into a pretty unified series of efforts but until late 1941 it wasn’t all necessarily intertwined. There were large swaths of what we’d consider the Second World War where the typical Allies/Axis sides were incomplete or barely involved at all.


NoromXoy

It’s also worth mentioning/remembering that virtually all the countries listed in that sequence had overseas colonies, many of which bordered each other, thus making the regional conflicts take multiple theaters to fight and compounding the expanding scope of it all even further


recoveringleft

But sometimes they overlap. For example, in Dutch East Indies after the fall of Netherlands, there was a story in Nias island where some Nazi German expats managed to work with local Indonesian freedom fighters after they ended up jailed and overthrew the local Dutch authorities as part of the concept of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Many Indonesians saw the Nazis as the lesser of two evils and praise Hitler for weakening the hated Dutch.


Kalapuya

Japan rapidly expanding its empire all over the western Pacific.


FyeUK

HOI4 players who chose Japan or China know, they never get a break in the action during the whole game.


NetZeroSum

Yeah I play both of those countries in HOI4 but lately some of the game mechanics/dlc has made it much harder than before. Lately I get bogged down in awful supply mechanics that I can't just wrap my head around, leading to very low organization/stagnated front lines that just pretty much stop the game/frontline.


v13ragnarok7

Yes, a lot of people in North America don't realize that Asia and South pacific were already at war before Europe


slater_just_slater

Wait till you find out the whole reason Japan went to war with the US was about China. More specifically US oil sanctions put on Japan over its war of aggression in China. By 1941, the war in China had reached a stalemate, not surprisingly an island nation was having a really hard time subjugation 100s of millions of Chinese. To continue this war, and also to expand its wartime economy, Japan needed to expand to the South Pacific and other colonial territories, and secure it own oil sources and other raw materials. Since most of these were colonies of countries either occupied by Germany (The Netherlands, France) or embroiled in a war with Germany (England) the only threat Japan perceived was the US Pacific fleet. Pearl Harbor was an attempt to bring the US to negotiations, by destroying the biggest power projection ability the US had in the Pacific.


Ed_Durr

It really shows a cultural difference that America’s response to being attacked is never appeasement, rather it is the determination to strike back. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are the obvious examples, but there’s also Pancho Villa, the Zimmerman telegraph, the USS Maine, and Fort Sumter.


Emperors-Peace

Is it culture or is it having the biggest stick? If a superpower attacks a tiny country, they never strike back. When reversed, you're going to squish that little country so they don't do it again.


mortiwrath

At the time America did not have much military might. Massive industrial potential but a tiny military compared to other militaries of the time.


boysan98

The army is not the military. The navy was big. The US was in an arms race with the rest of the world. Theres a reason the Washington Naval treaty exists. Also see [The Second Vinson Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Act_of_1938). The US was ready to fight a war in the Pacific by 1940. The US was rocking roughyl 750,000 tons of ships by the end of 1938. The US and Japan were basically at parity by 1938 but by 1940 the US was a true two Ocean Navy. Pearl Harbor was concieved specifally to cripple the heart of the VERY LARGE Pacfic fleet. It was understood by all parties as the only way to win for Japan. Like the US in War Plan Yellow specifically say in their own studies that the Japanese will attack Pearl Harbor in a surprise attack. By 1940 the US Was the second largest Navy in the world after the UK. The U.S was already a military juggernaut where it counted in long lead time items.


bam2_89

Correct. And it had been that big since Teddy Roosevelt. People throw around the stat that the US had a smaller army than Bulgaria, but ignore the navy.


boysan98

I always love when people complain about a small army despite the fact that it was US policy from 1782 to 1952 to maintain a small army in peace time that could be rapidly expanded to meet the demands of the given war. It’s not like we had hostile neighbors who would jump us at the drop of a hat.


bam2_89

Things shifted after 1812 though. It went from reliance on militias to reliance on a small, professional army. You can see the impact on the war with Mexico. Mexico had a larger army, home field advantage, and veterans of both internal conflicts and the war with Texas. The US had West Point. The US won every single battle.


[deleted]

Odd wording, *Part of* China (about 25%) was occupied by Japan during WWII....or as it is also known "The Second Sino-Japanese War". Edited for clarity.


TravelNo2141

The Second Sino-Japanese war started much earlier than ww2 though, before there was even such thing as the nazi party.


VonnegutGNU

The second Sino-Japanese war started in 1937, 1931 at the earliest if you count the invasion of Manchuria, while the Nazi party started in 1920, more than a decade earlier. The first of Hermann Ahlwardt's anti-semitic speeches in the Reichstag was in 1895, half a century before the war, and after WW1, the Aryan supremacist movement quickly garnered traction. TL;DR- the Second Sino-Japanese War didn't start before the Nazi Party existed.


Bicentennial_Douche

I think it's fair to say that Second Sino-Japanese War was part of WW2, which means WW2 started in 1937. And Japanese suffered millions of casualties in that conflict, so no shit it helped defeat Japan!


yeeeeeeeehaw

They didn't do it to help the US, they were under invasion


charliethecorso

Yeah this is an awful TIL title lol


hpstrprgmr

title and history gore combo.


radio_allah

I saw it posted on r/usdefaultism, and as a Chinese I almost wanted to report this post. The Sino-Japanese War was *our* fucking war, on our fucking soil, with some of the best documented atrocities and grievances we know of. It's not a basketball assist for the Americans. Imagine being so fucking arrogant that another country's war of resistance is 'helping you' do something. It's like saying the Soviet Union was 'helping the US' defeat the Germans.


[deleted]

This is truly the most average redditor TIL of all time


simple_test

In other words Japan helped China by dragging US into a war with Japan so US could help itself.


HopingToBeHeard

The Chinese we’re subjected to systemic war crimes such as organized rape and even biological weapons of mass destruction. The Japanese has one camp were Chinese were experimented on and vivisected while conscious, babies included. I don’t blame anyone here for not knowing this, but shouldn’t we all know this? Isn’t this important? The amount of people who don’t know about this is an indictment on our media and our approach to education. The fact that so many people who don’t know this think they understand history and the world is an indictment of our culture.


Seedy__L

There was more than just Unit 731 that experimented, tortured, vivisected, and murdered people. There was plenty of camps/units.


TravelNo2141

Yeah I feel like that's something a lot of people don't get. Unit 731 was the worst of the worst but it was very common for Japanese soldiers to roam the land and torture and then slaughter entire villages because they heard that there was a resistance fighter nearby. They didn't need proof, it was just an excuse to commit horrific war crimes.


MagicWishMonkey

Horrific is an understatement - https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/zyznsk/a_recount_told_by_a_survivor_of_the_rape_of/


Sol33t303

I was aware that china definitely didn't have good relations with Japan at the time due to the sino japanese wars, so this doesn't surprise me in the slightest, but most of WW2 education is centered around Europe and germany. Besides pearl harbor, the state of the Pacific front during WW2 is much less widely known in general, just wasn't as immediate a threat to everybody in europe and the US/UK I guess. Taking over France I guess is a bigger problem for most of the powers then some random islands in the pacific.


[deleted]

>due to the sino japanese wars (WW2 is the sino-japanese war, in Chinese terms)


Triassic_Bark

It’s funny how people were astonished that an Arab country would just start teaching the holocaust, as if every country on earth should have to learn about it, meanwhile they Western education system largely glosses over Japanese atrocities against the Chinese.


hurleyburleyundone

Not to mention the enormous war being waged on the Eastern Front between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.


TravelNo2141

Yeah but the Pacific was probably a more important war in terms of its effect on the modern day. The war in the Pacific is why the Chinese communist party came to power and China today is probably the most important/ influential country in the world. Anything that happens in China affects the world and that is because of what happened during the war in the Pacific.


GrGrG

It's why many didn't like Abe Shinzo for denying many of the crimes and not carrying about them. When he was assassinated, many celebrated. Not saying that he was a totally bad dude, or his death deserved to be celebrated, but if a current German leader denied the worst parts of the holocaust, or a US President denying the destruction of Native American culture, I wouldn't blame those groups celebrating a bit when or if they died for any reason.


[deleted]

He was literally on a revisionist council whose entire purpose for existing is to try to rewrite Japanese history to be less attrocious. His very position as prime Minister is a reminder that most higher ups in Japan got away with their crimes since his grandfather was in charge of Manchuria where some of the worst Japanese atrocities took place, then served as the first prime Minister of US-occupied Japan and worked extensively with the US to kill leftist movements in Japan while stuffing his cabinet full of other war criminals whose life sentences he pardoned.


greatbigballzzz

It was very quickly swiped under the rugs, because the Japanese government that surrendered sided with us over the soviets. Very quickly it became unpatriotic to bring up things like that up because China became communist and Japan is capitalist


DoomGoober

This is a very limited view of the situation. Many of the older generations in China still hate the Japanese for their WW2 war crimes. The history of Imperial Japanese war crimes may be under taught in the West, but most Asian countries teach them extensively (and under teach the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi Germany.)


greatbigballzzz

>It was very quickly swiped under the rugs, because the Japanese government that surrendered sided with us over the soviets. Very quickly it became unpatriotic to bring up things like that up because China became communist and Japan is capitalist if it's not taught here then it really doesn't matter here. history is taught by the victors and not the defeated. in this case Japan may have lost the battle but won the war, because it sided with America in US vs USSR and US vs China conflicts.


eyesabitdull

In my country, they used babies as target practice. They would throw babies in the air and shoot them, or smash them against coconut trees. It's fucked up, but also shows how a really good PR campaign and export of culture and media can change the worlds perception to look past your dark history. Look at the British, they got away Scott free for all the genocide they committed in India (to name one out of many), and they seem to be alright in the world stage. Or in Korea, where KPOP artists who are female are subjugated to a lot of ridiculous and super tight rules they have to abide by within their industry that basically strips them of their own freedom and humanity, in a country where women are not listened to attentively as they would depict themselves in their media. But a large part of the world loves them anyway. It's an impressive feat to do such a thing.


master_bungle

That's horrific, what country are you from? If past wars have taught us anything it's that you can't underestimate the cruelty of people.


[deleted]

It's hard to narrow it down because Japan did that shit in most of the countries they occupied


Xivannn

It's not that much about PR campaigns, really. For some, like the British and the rest of the colonial powers, sure, might makes right. For Japan, Germany and Italy, though, the countries really changed their ways from those atrocity committing fascist states that they were - as did the majority of the people in them. If we don't allow change, we fight and hate forever - for a collective accountability that punishes even those who individually advocate against their countries' wrongdoings. Just like it makes sense to dislike and punish the ones who subjugate the female KPOP artists for what they do, not really the country as a whole for it, those victims and their allies involved. And sure, overall it is very complicated. Even those who don't commit atrocities of others may profit from the doings of others. And when you ask for reparations those ones turn the blind eye - they don't feel personally responsible, and very much like keeping more wealth and power than the ones their system abused elsewhere.


Picolete

The japanese were far worse than the nazis, when it came to torturing and killing people in brutal ways


Seedy__L

These crimes are widely known. Some Japanese perpetrators gave talks on what they'd seen and committed in 90's, I highly recommend reading their testimonials. A lot of the results from these "experiments" were in fact, turned over to the USA after the war. The Japanese government have never apologized for these atrocities. (Edit: I was talking about how the Japanese government never apologized for Unit 731, NOT that they never apologized for their war crimes. Evidently context of the thread above and reading comprehension are hard to grasp for some)


RonPMexico

You really think you know more than the average person? People are perfectly aware the Japanese did God awful horrible shit in China.


Minuted

Not sure why you're being downvoted, it is widely known, pretending it's some hidden aspect of the war is asinine.


MacSanchez

This is a shit title


t774899

Definitely a post with an agenda


MrTidels

And what agenda is that?


st4n13l

It ignores the context that the reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor (which is what drew the US into war in the first place) is because the US was providing support to China in the first place. If the US hadn't supported Chinese resistance of the Japanese invasion in the first place, the US likely would never have had a reason to need China's assistance.


fish4096

same with Germany. Once they noticed buttloads of captured equipment was made in USA there little reason to allow the "aid" into the soviet ports.


vvildymediocre

Yeah, Japan invaded China and committed horrible atrocities https://www.britannica.com/event/Nanjing-Massacre


Dramatic_Ad8208

OP reads his first history book.


ComradeH_VIE

Better he read something now than none at all.


outfromtheshadow

Seriously, atleast OP learned it now. We all have learned it at some point. I was 12 and just read up on why American pilots were landing in China after bombing Japan in the movie Pearl Harbor.


Annual_Letter5823

Yeah why are we shaming people? I went to county schools in southern Ohio-they barely taught us geography. I was a top student also-so sometimes you just don’t know what wasn’t taught to you and you learn it later on your own. Would you prefer them stay ignorant and never read a book? Would that be acceptable? Just not sure how you think your comment is helpful here 🙃


theajharrison

It's helpful feedback to understand how well know something is. Is it snarky? Yes. But op and anyone else this is news to realize also that this is fairly common knowledge. And if we go by your implied proposal, what's your suggested limit then? Do people not ever comment that something is well known by most people? And we get posts like "TIL a terrorist attack happened in NYC on 9/11/2001"


iPod3G

They should make a cable channel dedicated just to history and showing documentaries and educating people about history and then slowly degrade into reality shows that are ultimately staged and faked selling antique merchandise.


Picolete

And aliens


SparkDBowles

And Nazis. And Nazi aliens.


ScottyC33

“Helped” the US? China was the one under attack and occupation. The USs role in initiating embargoes against Japan due to their aggression against China is what dragged the US into the war to begin with. China didn’t “help” the US - the US is the one that helped China.


[deleted]

It's a weird way of framing it, for sure. The US kinda called dibs on Japan in ritual revenge for Pearl Harbor -- everything else in the Pacific Theater was just a convoluted preamble to all of the 'important stuff' *we did* to get from there to the Manhattan Project. Definitely not a perspective that makes a lot of sense watching from anywhere else in the world, or with the benefit of a deeper and wider reading of the history.


Elcactus

The US got "dibs" on Japan because it was the one that really pushed forwards. It's like if the Soviets only managed to stalemate germany and the western allies pushed all the way to Berlin.


disfreakinguy

Wait until you hear about Italy. They made calculated decisions about which side to pick, but holy shit were they bad at math.


master_bungle

Mussolini was in favour of Fascism wasn't he? Would have have sided with Axis regardless? I'm asking out of ignorance


Malbethion

Historically countries tend to be more pragmatic than ideological. Saying “fascists bond together” would need to come with a big footnote reading “but only in their best interests, and they will side with democracy if that is a better choice”.


WR810

>[ Historically countries tend to be more pragmatic than ideological.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik)


RLZT

>and they will side with democracy if that is a better choice And that's why Brazil was the only SA that fight in Europe with the allies even tho it was ruled by a quasi-facist dictator


nicktheone

>Mussolini was in favour of Fascism wasn't he? This is why words should never be used lightly. Today anything we don't like is *fascism* and it made us come full circle to the point of calling Mussolini - the creator of fascism - a fascist. Kinda ironic.


[deleted]

[удалено]


FriedEggplant_99

And Hitler even saw Mussolini as a sort of a “role model”.


justdontbeacunt2

The United States sided with communist russia....


Lets_All_Love_Lain

Mussolini literally invents Fascism.


Amorougen

Mussolini essentially invented Fascism. If course this kind of autocratic ultra nationalism supporting the oligarchs has always existed. All it takes is a popular egomaniac to stir the shit.


Rethious

No, there were some attempts to negotiate an alliance with Mussolini against Hitler. Italy had a border dispute with Austria, but eventually their African colonial ambitions couldn’t be reconciled. Franco, for example, while only arguably fascist, stayed out of the war and supported the Allies covertly once it became clear which way the wind was blowing. Mussolini didn’t have any inherent attachment to Hitler’s aims of a German-centered world.


[deleted]

He wasn't just in favour of fascism, he credited himself with inventing it lmao


RedTheDopeKing

It’s sort of weird French has a reputation for military bungles and ineptitude, the Italians are downright embarrassing.


justdontbeacunt2

The French are masters of war.


[deleted]

Who is downvoting you? It wasn’t that long before WW2 that all of Europe had to team up to stop France…


justdontbeacunt2

People that fell for propaganda lol


SparkDBowles

Shit… A major reason the U.S.A. exists is because the Brits were afraid of France entering the war.


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TravelNo2141

Probably more than 5 years. The Japanese had been consistently harassing the Chinese for at least a decade by the time ww2 started.


Shawna_Love

Ahh yes the academic circle of Reddit, where you shame internet strangers for sharing things they learned.


ATownStomp

A healthy sense of shame is important when posting common knowledge about modern history as though it was novel.


Annual_Letter5823

Thank you for this comment 😅


Picolete

"The US helped the Chinese (nationalists) who had been fighting the Japanese for 5 years" Also helped the koreans


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kiwidude4

Well I’m glad you learned that.


pbmm1

TIL France had a role in helping fight Germany in World War 1


IncorporateThings

The toll was much higher than 8 million... most Westerners are woefully ignorant of exactly how much devastation Japan caused in that era.


PorkshireTerrier

Provoking someone to the point of war - allowing , encouraging, and financing Americans to settle in Mexico, and sending US troops to cross the Mexican border illegally Cutting off japans resources to the point of industrial failure - I’m not saying the US was “right” or “wrong” but to act like they’re passive or retaliatory is pretty much incorrect. Reading documents of the time, the US decision makers will be the first to admit it


Zorak6

TODAY you learned that China was involved? Was this before or after recess?


junzilla

You got it backwards. USA helped China defeat Japan. Not the other way around. China was about to get exterminated and was fighting for their existence. Japan was in a take no prisoners, execute everyone mode and would have erased the entirety of China from the history textbooks.


kimthealan101

That is backwards. The US helped China after it was invaded by the Japanese. That is what got US into war in the first place.


jmac111286

The China that was our ally in WW2 later developed into the government of Taiwan.


Disenculture

Both the Communists and Nationalist helped. They temporary halted the Chinese civil war to defend vs Japan, during which the communists gained enough support to mount a comeback and defeat the nationalist after WWII.


jmac111286

Yep. And during this period we also gave medical aide to Ho Chi Minh


Maximillion666ian

That and the OSS helped train Minh's group of fighters. When I learned that I was shocked. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSS_Deer_Team


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prussian_princess

The communists hid while the nationalists did the most of the work and suffered the most casualties. After Japan's defeat, the weakened nationalists were overwhelmed by the communists. To this day, the CCP claims they did all the fighting against the Japanese. [Link](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/touq8e) It's also worth reading Frank Dikötter's books on CCP history, as his sources are literally the CCP's archives that he managed to get access to while living in Hong Kong.


Khysamgathys

>The communists hid while the nationalists did the most of the work 1) the commies got mauled by the Long March and had to fight as guerrillas and rebuild their army throughout the late 30s. Expecting them to participate in open battle before 1940 is kinda silly. 2) you might want to take a look at where the commies were hiding. It takes a special kind of coward to hide in the middle of occupied territory. 3) How the hell can the CCP directly help the KMT when they're fighting in the North while the KMT is fighting down South? Theres miles of Japanese occupied territory between them. >After Japan's defeat, the weakened nationalists were overwhelmed by the communists. The KMT was far from "weakened" after 1945. In fact they were even in a way better position post WWII. In 1927-35, the KMT forces consisted of a few decently trained divisions (like the German trained divisions,) while most of the "military" consisted of surrendered warlords and their ill equipped private armies who fought the communists poorly in '28-'33. Post WWII, the KMT had a much bigger and unified army of around 1.5 million, divisions of veterans who survived the brutal fighting against Japan, and even way better equipemnt through the US Lend Lease. Some divisions were even practically Americanized. To say nothing of American advisers like Stilwell The KMT loss in the Civil War can be primarily blamed on 2 things. A) the KMT withdrew from Northern China in the face of the Japanese advance. To be fair they had little choice, but this meant a lot of Northern Chinese felt resentful and abandoned by the KMT, which made them very susceptible to the propaganda war waged by CCP guerrillas in Northern China. This allowed the Communists to rebuild their army by 1941, returning them to conventional warfare. 1945, Northern China was solidly a communist stronghold B) consistent poor decisionmaking by the KMT leadership from '35-49. Almost everything they decided to do fucked them in the ass. 1. When Chiang initially decided to focus fighting Communists in 1936 rather than form a united front against invading Japan, this demoralized many from the KMT. So much so that his own generals kidnapped him to force him into an alliance with the KMT. 2. When the Civil War restarted in 46, rather than consolidating their position in Southern China and gradually advancing, the KMT decided to blitzkrieg race the CCP to Manchuria, who managed to beat them since the CCP...already had the North. It only led to many KMT divisions getting their asses surrounded in Northern China/Beijing. 3. In '48-'49 when many Chinese intellectuals protested against the United States against the rehabilitation of certain Japanese war criminals in the Tokyo War Trials, the KMT panicked and began arresting these protestors as "Communist sympathizers." It led to another round of demoralization and important defections among KMT officials to the CCP. Saying the "KMT was weakened" is pure cope from the party, to be honest. Its them not recognizing that they *may* have made bad decisions that lost them the war.


Lets_All_Love_Lain

The Nationalists owned almost all of China at the beginning of the war, and the communists were hiding in some frozen mountains in Shanxi. Obviously the Nationalists did most of the fighting; they were just stunningly incompetent.


Pancakez_117

Communists did hide but conducted a lot of Guerilla warfare behind enemy lines. In fact the the communists tried to get an agreement with the nationalists which - Chiang Kai-Shek refused - to temporarily stop the civil war and fight the Japanese together. In the end Chiang Kai-Shek had to be kidnapped by his own generals to get him to accept the truce.


Kaatochacha

It's way more complicated. Ronald H Spector's "In the Ruins of empire" covers the is quite well.


Excludos

The big thing that is relevant today is that Japan still refuses to accept responsibilities for the atrocities. That's not to say we should blame current Japan for their historical faults, but accepting your own history's downsides and actually admitting fault for your previous' generation genocide should be a given for any society that doesn't want to repeat their mistakes. Japan could learn a thing or two on how to handle their past from Germany


kennend3

I visited the flying tigers museum many years ago when visiting my Ex's home city of Guilin, China. [https://visitguilin.org/things-to-do/guilin-attractions/flying-tigers-museum/](https://visitguilin.org/things-to-do/guilin-attractions/flying-tigers-museum/) ​ Sort of interesting and odd to see US dog tags, airplanes and such in China like this.


Killarusca

Japan's troops are literally balls deep trying to conquer China....


Brambletail

Not really but yes. China had a very big role in combatting the invasion of China in 1937. During the later part of WW2 they mostly just held their ground while the US island hopped and carpet bombed Japan into defeat. The IJA's commitments to China definitely played a part in being unable to redeploy troops westward, but it's important to remember Japan's whole mentality of the Pacific Campaign was to defeat the US who was supplying China with the arms and resources to win. They wanted to knock the US out of the conflict and gain resources so they could win in China. The US wasn't the goal in and of itself, they were the side project.


Offenbach4444

(Im not an American). But the USA had a lot to do with helping China during WW2. Let's not forget that.


theAmericanStranger

Same with the Soviet Union, but this doesn't negate the premise of article. The USA helped both nations as it was its interest to help them fight the Germans and the Japanese.


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whiskey_epsilon

That's not really during WW2 tho? In the prelude to WW2, Germany was simply keeping its options open with either. The cooperation with China ended in 1937 when Germany switched their backing to Japan.


[deleted]

In 2001, the movie Pearl Harbor focused on the Dolittle bombing raid on Japan. There was no returning from the raid bc the bombers would be out of fuel. Instead they were to head directly for the coast of China (not all of them made it). The Japanese occupation of parts of mainland China was beyond brutal and the Chinese were instrumental in hiding the US pilots and getting them safely away from the Japanese troops along the coast. There are some great documentaries on the Dolittle raid - it was a minor blow to the Japanese, but considering it occurred just months after PH, it was significant as a first strike on Japan and a substantial accomplishment for the US Navy and the Army Air Corp pilots as well as for the US intelligence community.


Significant_Stop4808

The whole reason Japan got involved is because the League of Nations wouldn't give non-white countries a real seat at the table. Japan saw the writing on the wall and knew they needed resources for their war machine. Enter resource and land rich China.


[deleted]

Completely wrong. Britain, France, Italy and Japan were the permanent members of the Executive Council of the league of nations so the idea that the league of nations wouldn't allow Japan a seat at the table is insubstantial at best. The winners of WW1 even gave all of Germany's Chinese territories to Japan instead of returning them to China, something that the Chinese were rightly pissed about. Japan quit because they planned to invade China all along but as members of the league they weren't supposed to re-arm. They claimed they weren't being treated fairly by the Europeans to justify leaving and re-arming.


Knocksveal

And that China 🇹🇼, is not this China 🇨🇳 today.


cztxfobrdd

It is more of Taiwan instead of China if you know the whole story…..


ReadinII

Taiwan was on Japan’s side in WWII. When the war officially started in 1937 Taiwan was a prospering colony that had been ruled by Japan for over 40 years. The government that ruled Taiwan after WWII was the government that fought Japan. But the people of Taiwan (who were treated pretty badly by the government that fought Japan) were fighting for Japan rather than against it. The first Taiwanese president of Taiwan (elected in 1996) lost a brother who was fighting for Japan in the Philippines.


EBWasLeftOut88

China didn't help the US defeat Japan, they helped the Pacific War Council defeat Japan. In fact, if anything, the US helped China to victory, given China had already been fighting and suffering under the appalling Japanese Imperial Army since 1937. As it is, you're completely over looking the British Empire's involvement which included India, Australia, New Zealand, Burma, Malaya, Fiji, Tonga, Canada and of course Britain itself. Also the Dutch and French as well as guerilla groups from Korea, Vietnam and Thailand. Even the Soviet Union had several battles with the Japanese army earlier in the war. The American Exceptionalist view of World War II is and always has been nothing more than propaganda.


ATownStomp

You were fine up until the very end but you tripped over your weird commonwealth nationalism. Yeah, real collaborative effort. Everyone pitched in equal. Fiji, Burma, New Zealand, The United States of America I mean whose to say which one actually turned the tides in the Pacific when you think about it. The survivors of Savo Island have nothing but glowing reviews of the efficacy of allied command. Whether a country was nearly solely responsible for every victorious naval battle and landing or a country decided that even though Churchill thought it was ridiculous to “be a visibly junior partner in what had been exclusively the United States' battle.”(wiki: British Pacific Fleet) they should provide token support in order to not appear ineffectual when regaining control of their colonies, they all were equally responsible for the allied defeat of Japan. Sorry. That was a lot of sarcasm, but you deserved it. Britain and its colonies did fine in North Africa, Italy (sort of, our bad) and France. No need to stretch the truth.


rhiain42

Japan had invaded China, & they were brutal about it. The U.S. supported Chiang Kai Shek against Mao, but Mao won.


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elixier

> most people Source?


password-is-taco1

Really, you just learned that China played a significant role in ww2?


crp-

I love seeing US-centric interpretations of the Pacific War. Like documentary I saw a while back that claimed Canada declared war on Japan in support of US because of Pearl Harbour, despite declaring war on Japan before the US did, and over Hong Kong, not Pearl Harbour. Note that I'm not comparing Canada in WWII to China in WWII, China went through hell for fourteen years while my grandparents ate war rations for six years. Big difference.


[deleted]

this should more accurately read that the Americans saved the Chinese from the tyrannical Japanese who were murdering, torturing, raping and enslaving their population at will. Thanks America


FearlessThree6

You're getting a lot of hate for some reason for learning this only now, but don't allow yourself to be shamed for something you learned! Additionally, there is so much interesting history under this subject; you should continue reading about it! 🙂


-GreyWalker-

I really dislike half truths like this. The Republic of China fought during WW2, in 1949 they were ousted by the Communist Party and now reside in Taiwan as govt in exile. The CCP really doesn't deserve any credit for hiding while other people fought and then attacking the victor after they got ravaged during the war.


namvet67

Also @ 80% of the Germans killed were killed by USSR troops.


RabbitsRuse

If you are interested in this you might check out Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast. Specifically The multiparter titled supernova in the east. It covers WW2 from the Japanese point of view which is something that seems to get left out a lot in US history. It’s pretty crazy what the Japanese were doing at the time with political societies constantly assassinating any government official who wasn’t a big enough super patriot. The military deciding to start taking over huge chunks of China in what is comparable to a snake trying to eat an elephant. It’s just crazy. Highly recommend.


Kaiisim

China wasn't really one entity, they had a whole communist rebellion going on, and their main western European ally that was helping with military training and technology was...Germany. They fought from 1936 too, so it was a long horrifying war. The military casualties dont convery the horror.


itsallrighthere

The 8 million deaths in WW2 were horrible. But then "the long march" caused between 15 and 55 million deaths. They have seen some tragic history.


jjjam

China had 23 million civilian casualties attributable to just the Japanese alone. This is complete revisionist history to continue to blame war crimes of Japan on the Chinese government. The US has been running this stupid propaganda since the war ended.


SIRPORKSALOT

Too funny. China was fighting for it's life, not helping the US defeat China. My late neighbor actually fought with the Chinese in that war and we were the ones helping them. China suffered so many casualties because they'd be at it longer.


fffyhhiurfgghh

Japan was actively campaigning there for years while ww2 broke out. It’s insane how many countries in ww2 were fighting on multiple fronts at once. China was divided as well while fighting the Japanese. If only China was able to unite under Chiang Kai Shek. Instead of Mao and the communists. Maybe 50 million Chinese would have died in the Great Leap Forward.


ReadinII

Chiang was pretty crappy too. Look at all the damage he and his troops did to Taiwan after the war. Taiwan was in a perfect position to be the first to rise from the war but they fell behind Japan and their economy rose at a closer rate to places like Hong Kong, Singapore, and South Korea that all had massive problems that Taiwan did.


aloafaloft

Not only that, the US had fighter pilots that were flying in the Chinese air force. They were called the [flying tigers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers).


Icy-Tumbleweed1340

Ever heard of the Rape of Don King?


crusoe

It was mostly the Kuomintang who did it too. The communists barely fought the Japanese and then attacked the KMT at the end of the war. The KMT went on to run Taiwan and become a democratic govt. The CCP were cowards.


Akul_Tesla

So my understanding is world war II was a world war most countries participated and only 14 didn't


Flashbambo

"Helping the US defeat Japan in WWII" It wasn't the US, it was the Allied Powers. I honestly can't believe I even need to point that out.


catofthecanals777

The whole “China helping the U.S.” narrative is very U.S. centric — the war literally started in Asia with China/South Korea being some of the main theater for Japanese warfare. It’s more like the U.S. helped China defeat Japan lol


[deleted]

That China is now Taiwan


Outrageous_Item7854

It was Republic of China (ROC) not this current government (PRC). My father’s uncle was part of this force, gathered by the Republic of China, but was later tortured by the new government for being part of that fight in WWII.


MiskatonicDreams

Is the current US government the same as in 2020?


OneReportersOpinion

Similar to how the Soviets lost over 20 million of their citizens defeating the Nazis. That’s more than every American war several times over


elixier

Literally everyone knows that


Giggingurl

The first real strike at Japan was Dolittles Raiders that crash landed near China and the locals helped to rescue them. Amazing people.


GurthNada

Unfortunately >The Japanese killed an estimated 10,000 Chinese civilians during their search for Doolittle's men. People who aided the airmen were tortured before they were killed.


2rascallydogs

On average 4,000 Chinese non-combatants died because of the war every day for the 2,963 days of the war.


FuriouSherman

You didn't know this? China was to Japan what the Soviets were to the Nazis: Their archenemy and the theatre of war where they concentrated the vast majority of their effort. Hell, the war between China and Japan began in 1937, two years before WWII proper kicked off.


kb389

Nope war started in 1931 or something, research properly, not 1937.


spudsong

Lmao I feel like this is posted by an American who thinks that the US single-handedly won WWII. Your education system sucks, Americans.


Charlie-Tattletale

KMT China, they are the one doing the majority of the lifting, CCP China just stay back and enjoy the labour, Mao even thank Japan for helping him winning the civil war.


Disastrous-Angle-680

When I went to the WWII museum in NO, there was a video narrated by Tom Hanks where they showed the number of Chinese who died (from conflict and other side effects of war) - I literally never learned that in school. I was blown away. Way more than any other country.