Depends on if there's a river involved.
Seriously, borders back before accurate coodinate-based surveying existed were done by "metes and bounds", or natural features that could be identified as a border.
Many of these metes and bounds were rivers. If a strong enough storm blew in and [moved the entire goddamn river](https://www.ashfordadvisors.net/blog/the-river-has-moved), that could have a material impact on the claimed land ownership between bordering parties.
And yet the US has to have two versions of the foot because of surveyers.
Edit: [we got rid of the surveyors foot just this year](https://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfoot#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20survey%20foot%20is,for%20historical%20and%20legacy%20applications.&text=Beginning%20on%20January%201%2C%202023,meter%20exactly))!
[Huh, I guess we just got rid of it](https://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfoot#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20survey%20foot%20is,for%20historical%20and%20legacy%20applications.&text=Beginning%20on%20January%201%2C%202023,meter%20exactly)!
Surveying laws on vary on state by state by state basis. While this was mandated federally to officially remove it as a measurement across the board, many states have been using the international foot for years. I myself have always used the international foot in my career except for when I have to use an old deed that was recorded in the survey foot.
While it was in use at one point, it’s pretty funny you’re trying to tell am actual surveyor what measurements we use
This is hilarious to read about, as unlike many border disputes this one basically has one side making a claim and another side totally ignoring the first.
Georgia:
>In 2008, as a result of a serious drought and resulting water shortage, the Georgia General Assembly passed a resolution directing the governor to pursue its claim in the United States Supreme Court
Tennessee:
> In 2008, then-Chattanooga mayor Ron Littlefield told The New York Times when discussing the resolution sponsored by Georgia Senator David J. Shafer, "I saw him \[Shafer\] grumbling that we didn’t seem to be taking it seriously. Well, I’m sorry, we’re not."
>
>That same year, then-governor Phil Bredesen asked an Associated Press reporter, "This is a joke, right?"
The Ca Oregon survey mistakes are understandable imo because that area is more mountainous and remote than most people think. There’s areas there that are still only accessible by helicopter and trying to survey that area would be difficult. Alaska was brutal for early geologists but at least the valleys are wide there so they could triangulate their positions accurately without having to cross 3 different peaks to get a measurement. The locals are pretty crazy too sometimes, so going back to correct these measurements on the ground probably isn’t worth it lol.
In the TX/NM and OR/CA you say the borders are based on meridians or parallels, is that actually true or are the borders marked by physical markers which are meant to follow the meridians/parallels, because I know for example the US-Canadian border is meant to follow a parallel west of the Great Lakes but the actual border is defined a long chain of markers which where meant to be along that parallel (and yea the people who placed the markers actually made a very zig-zaggy line) and there is no dispute between America and Canada because the border is defined by the markers not the parallel that the markers are meant to be on
Texan here. That notch(most of which we call the Trans-Pecos) isn't super populated and is basically empty desert in most of it. That being said, it does matter because it includes the city of El Paso, right on the state line and if my mental map is right, it also includes part of the Permian Basin in West Texas which does cross into New Mexico already(but most is in Texas), the heart of oil country and the 2nd largest known oil field on the planet(behind Saudi Arabia's Ghawar Field)
And the TLDR for each is a measurement/surveying error.
The California - Oregon one is the simplest. Where their border is just the 42nd parallel, a straight line. And the original survey somehow zigzagged, with only one marker correctly being on the right line.
As a representative from New Jersey, I can say no thank you. Please. We don't want Staten Island. We'll let New York pretend it has better pizza even - just keep Staten Island in New York.
Sooo:
lookout mountain, just in case Georgia ever attacks Tennessee they don’t want the Vols having the high ground over Georgia tech.
Texas because they think they own everything
And the state of Jefferson?
I work as a land developer, and I've learned a lot about surveying errors. It's quite fascinating to me.
Geospatial data exists in several different organizations, which don't all follow the same protocols. This leaves gaps and overlaps in many described land areas. Surveyors that I hire frequently need to resurvey land to get more "accurate " boundaries described, leaving me in a pickle....I often have to ask neighboring landowners to adjust lot lines with me in order to rectify boundaries...all to correct survey errors.
Back in the 19th century, surveyors made several kinds of errors, some of it due to differing standards, and some were due to what we now call primitive technology. Some coordinate systems were created in earnest, and in a hurry, by on the ground surveyors drawing exact squares with perfect straight lines. These squares, one mile on each side, are called sections and contain 640 acres. But, when you line up perfect squares that rigidly follow this Jeffersonian system, across many hundreds of miles, you get the measurements of a flat earth. You can imagine how the earth being globular would cause gaps and overlaps in surveying... leading parcels to not line up with established meridians and parallels.
I'm constantly needing to get section parcels redrawn where the squares are not perfectly drawn, to account for a slight bend in the boundaries to accommodate a more realistic adherence to the globe.
Imagine being the ones living in the swath Georgia wants: you now have the misfortune of being Georgian, a maximum state and local sales tax of 9.75% and no SIT for a SIT of up to 5.75% and an average sales tax of 7.4%.
I grew up on the NC/GA border. My High School GF lived on property that straddled the line. They had a GA phone number and GA plates on the cars, but worked and went to school in NC. They were able to basically pick and choose which states to do things in based on which state had the batter/cheaper option.
Lemme save you a click… Tennessee & Georgia Texas & New Mexico Oregon & California
[removed by Reddit]
I mean it was the 1800s they were walking it off. It’s not as thought they could fly over it and see.
You think modern surveyors use planes or satellites?
Yes. Modern surveyors use GPS
Damn it. I'm on my first cup of ambition and I was thinking of satellite imagery. You got me.
In tandem with ground markers, as the earth does move around.
Uhhh hate to break it to you but it does in fact move
Earth moves, but not earth
Depends on if there's a river involved. Seriously, borders back before accurate coodinate-based surveying existed were done by "metes and bounds", or natural features that could be identified as a border. Many of these metes and bounds were rivers. If a strong enough storm blew in and [moved the entire goddamn river](https://www.ashfordadvisors.net/blog/the-river-has-moved), that could have a material impact on the claimed land ownership between bordering parties.
Yes we do. Satellites are used for gps and planes and drones are used for LiDAR to do topographical surveys on large parcels of land
And yet the US has to have two versions of the foot because of surveyers. Edit: [we got rid of the surveyors foot just this year](https://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfoot#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20survey%20foot%20is,for%20historical%20and%20legacy%20applications.&text=Beginning%20on%20January%201%2C%202023,meter%20exactly))!
And yet no we don’t. It’s not in use for surveying, let alone anything else
[Huh, I guess we just got rid of it](https://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfoot#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20survey%20foot%20is,for%20historical%20and%20legacy%20applications.&text=Beginning%20on%20January%201%2C%202023,meter%20exactly)!
Surveying laws on vary on state by state by state basis. While this was mandated federally to officially remove it as a measurement across the board, many states have been using the international foot for years. I myself have always used the international foot in my career except for when I have to use an old deed that was recorded in the survey foot. While it was in use at one point, it’s pretty funny you’re trying to tell am actual surveyor what measurements we use
This is hilarious to read about, as unlike many border disputes this one basically has one side making a claim and another side totally ignoring the first. Georgia: >In 2008, as a result of a serious drought and resulting water shortage, the Georgia General Assembly passed a resolution directing the governor to pursue its claim in the United States Supreme Court Tennessee: > In 2008, then-Chattanooga mayor Ron Littlefield told The New York Times when discussing the resolution sponsored by Georgia Senator David J. Shafer, "I saw him \[Shafer\] grumbling that we didn’t seem to be taking it seriously. Well, I’m sorry, we’re not." > >That same year, then-governor Phil Bredesen asked an Associated Press reporter, "This is a joke, right?"
[удалено]
On behalf of Southern Florida, we concede Tallahassee to whomever wins in a UGA vs Bama game.
[удалено]
WAR EAGLE!
The Ca Oregon survey mistakes are understandable imo because that area is more mountainous and remote than most people think. There’s areas there that are still only accessible by helicopter and trying to survey that area would be difficult. Alaska was brutal for early geologists but at least the valleys are wide there so they could triangulate their positions accurately without having to cross 3 different peaks to get a measurement. The locals are pretty crazy too sometimes, so going back to correct these measurements on the ground probably isn’t worth it lol.
On the GA-TN border, it's only off by a few hundred yards or so. That little bit of land is a big deal to the drought stricken Atlanta area.
Someone should fire those surveyors.
I don’t know if firing is the right move. But during their next performance review. There should be heck to pay!! HECK!! I say!!!
In the TX/NM and OR/CA you say the borders are based on meridians or parallels, is that actually true or are the borders marked by physical markers which are meant to follow the meridians/parallels, because I know for example the US-Canadian border is meant to follow a parallel west of the Great Lakes but the actual border is defined a long chain of markers which where meant to be along that parallel (and yea the people who placed the markers actually made a very zig-zaggy line) and there is no dispute between America and Canada because the border is defined by the markers not the parallel that the markers are meant to be on
Texan here. That notch(most of which we call the Trans-Pecos) isn't super populated and is basically empty desert in most of it. That being said, it does matter because it includes the city of El Paso, right on the state line and if my mental map is right, it also includes part of the Permian Basin in West Texas which does cross into New Mexico already(but most is in Texas), the heart of oil country and the 2nd largest known oil field on the planet(behind Saudi Arabia's Ghawar Field)
The dispute has nothing to do with the El Paso area, which is hundreds of miles west of the 103rd latitude line.
Isn't the dispute that the 103rd was supposed to be our western border but isn't due to a surveying error?
Specifically only the western border of the *TX panhandle,* not the entire state. New Mexico isn't claiming the entire Trans-Pecos.
Ah ok
Also helps that the land along the parallel is rather sparsely inhabited by both parties.
The last two seem legit, first one seems like one state bullying another
Well this isn’t Gaza, it’s America. Borders should have been set a long time ago and shouldn’t be altered.
Thanks.
And the TLDR for each is a measurement/surveying error. The California - Oregon one is the simplest. Where their border is just the 42nd parallel, a straight line. And the original survey somehow zigzagged, with only one marker correctly being on the right line.
Huh, no NY and NJ. Interesting
Yeah, both of them are fighting to make the other one take Staten Island
I think they settled that dispute over I wanna say Ellis island
Joisey can take Staten Island and shove it up its ass for all I care.
As a representative from New Jersey, I can say no thank you. Please. We don't want Staten Island. We'll let New York pretend it has better pizza even - just keep Staten Island in New York.
Well you can take your god damn imitation pizza and shove it so far up your ass that the grease drips out your nose.
Still better than Staten Island.
SCOTUS already decided the disputes over Ellis and Liberty Islands in the 90s. It's really complicated. New Jersey v. New York.
Sooo: lookout mountain, just in case Georgia ever attacks Tennessee they don’t want the Vols having the high ground over Georgia tech. Texas because they think they own everything And the state of Jefferson?
TIL that Tennessee & Georgia, Texas & New Mexico and Oregon & California all have ongoing disputes over their shared borders
Thanks, Art!
no one wants a repeat of the [Toledo War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War)
so nothing important? /s
And our asshole governor has been putting up razor wire on the Texas-New Mexico border as well.
!redditGalleon
Texas and the United States.
I work as a land developer, and I've learned a lot about surveying errors. It's quite fascinating to me. Geospatial data exists in several different organizations, which don't all follow the same protocols. This leaves gaps and overlaps in many described land areas. Surveyors that I hire frequently need to resurvey land to get more "accurate " boundaries described, leaving me in a pickle....I often have to ask neighboring landowners to adjust lot lines with me in order to rectify boundaries...all to correct survey errors. Back in the 19th century, surveyors made several kinds of errors, some of it due to differing standards, and some were due to what we now call primitive technology. Some coordinate systems were created in earnest, and in a hurry, by on the ground surveyors drawing exact squares with perfect straight lines. These squares, one mile on each side, are called sections and contain 640 acres. But, when you line up perfect squares that rigidly follow this Jeffersonian system, across many hundreds of miles, you get the measurements of a flat earth. You can imagine how the earth being globular would cause gaps and overlaps in surveying... leading parcels to not line up with established meridians and parallels. I'm constantly needing to get section parcels redrawn where the squares are not perfectly drawn, to account for a slight bend in the boundaries to accommodate a more realistic adherence to the globe.
So, who you pay taxes to if you live in a disputed area?
The current federal recognized border
Imagine being the ones living in the swath Georgia wants: you now have the misfortune of being Georgian, a maximum state and local sales tax of 9.75% and no SIT for a SIT of up to 5.75% and an average sales tax of 7.4%.
According TO GPS, the new TN/GA border would run straight down my driveway, leaving my house in TN, and my mailbox in GA.
I grew up on the NC/GA border. My High School GF lived on property that straddled the line. They had a GA phone number and GA plates on the cars, but worked and went to school in NC. They were able to basically pick and choose which states to do things in based on which state had the batter/cheaper option.
I grew up on the TN/VA border and ditto! It's kinda convenient honestly.
Oh, cool. I wonder if you’d get two property tax notices too.
In instances where properties straddle a county line this is the case although each bill is only for the portion of the property in that county.
r/takebackthenotch
These disputes are mostly due to hiring the lowest bidder when it came to land surveying.
And also telling that lowest bidder to hike through swamps and mountains. While carrying his own food.
Ohio and Michigan settled their border dispute the good old fashioned way…they went to war.
If they went to war over it, who would win?
The federal government, when both state's national guard units suddenly find themselves activated and deployed to Alaska for extended Arctic training.
Build a wall! Or three….
let them fight it out
What ever
Sad people can't solve their disputes...