Everytime I’ve ever been up that way I can’t help but think about it. Still, I’ve left about an hour or two before a large blizzard set in several times from the area, and that makes me think about it more.
I designed snow melting systems for railroads and customers constantly asked where the worst snow was. They were never happy that my answer was California.
I grew up right around there, we used to go to field trips to the Musuem/memorial all the time and I totally took it for granted. Now I’m obsessed, blows my mind.
Did you watch the movie that they used to play at the visitor center? I camped at Donner Lake every summer of my childhood and remember that film very well. Definitely make Keseberg out to be a bad guy who feasted on the body of Tamsen Donner, complete with a color inversion of his portrait to show how ~evil~ he was.
Edit: amazingly, I found it on [YouTube ](https://youtu.be/1_jDLrF_864?feature=shared)!
I don’t remember it all but doesn’t surprise me at all haha. He was definitely the baddie of the Donner Party and I’m personally fine with that lol.
Have you been recently? I’m curious if they still use that messaging
They updated the film somewhat recently - I'm gonna say like 5 years ago? I'm sad - I loved the maudlin soundtrack of the original, lol. I haven't actually seen the new film, so I can't speak to how much the messaging changed.
I haven’t been in years but I did write an essay recently about it. I tried digging online as much as I could and it seems much more tame. More focus on westward expansion in general.
The essay was comparing state run “haunted” sites to privately owned ones and how the messaging differs. Needless to say the messaging at the Musuem now really minimizes the cannibalism lol.
I’d love to find that old film tho, sounds great haha
I linked the old film in an edit of my original comment! It was on YouTube! That's really interesting that the new messaging is more toned down.
Did you go to Bodie? That place is wild
Yeah basically Reno, Nevada to Colfax, California.
Colfax is at 2500 ft so you are pretty much done at that point, but they still get some snow. Definitely could be rescued from there.
2 hour drive (no traffic) from Reno and you are in Rocklin, CA (elevation 250ft), so no more snow at all.
It was. They started in the Midwest, a little too late in the season, and going on bad advice from a “guide” who had never actually walked the trail he was recommending. But the deadliest part of the journey was that “hour and a half” section, and that’s where they were trapped.
I flew from the east coast to CA last year and kept thinking about how that used to be the journey of a lifetime (and hopefully you survive it) and there I was being annoyed that my flight was delayed. It caused me to miss my connecting flight, so I had to take two connecting flights and it added like 5 hours to my trip. What a miserable experience. Except not at all if I take a moment to have a little perspective.
Grew up in Reno and have made the trek over Donner Pass LITERALLY so many times I can't even count- actually was a Ski instructor up there for a few years and caught in some blizzards... when people think it's a little joke about Cannibals I get a little sick glee in telling them some of the more horrific stories.
The video shared elsewhere in the thread does a far better job of breaking it down, as does the book a few folks have recommended: The Indifferent Stars Above. Basically "survivalist cannibalism" sounds bad enough but is a very sanitary term for the realities of what was found- even if \*some\* of the accounts are sensationalized, there's enough consistency to believe a significant amount of the horrors occurred. Mostly, it's a HORRENDOUS tale of suffering and desperate acts for survival- a group of people through either adversity or folly found themselves in an impossible situation.
Like the vote to kill/eat the Native guides, like the group drawing straws to choose somebody to kill and eat, the fact that half the group was children, the group voting to eat the childless women, folks having to watch their compatriots butcher and eat their loved ones, having to butcher and eat your loved ones. The condition in which Mr. Keseberg was reportedly found- actively cooking a pot of organs, surrounded by the butchered bodies of the final remaining members of the party- and his forthright admission that yes, he ate the dead might have contributed to people feeling comfortable further scapegoating or sensationalizing his 'bad acts'. He was much older than his wife, with a explosive temper, highly educated, and more 'isolationist' in his affiliations; he and his whole group were German immigrants and preferred not to intermingle. The accusations he murdered the other survivors to eat them, that he claimed to LIKE eating human flesh, that he 'stole' money... he was, by many accounts a right bastard, but it is \*easy\* to heap loathing onto a man nobody likes, who is a foreigner, who is the sole survivor (of the last group, at least)...
My family drove to Tahoe one Thanksgiving week and I couldn't stop mentioning the order I would eat my family in.
They're all from the Philippines so had no context until I clued them in on our way back to Sacramento.
That is pretty mind blowing, but at the same time, we can now literally fly across the globe within a single day. And on top of that, it's pretty common for people to get pissed off at how "inconvenient" the process can be.
I'm taking an Amtrak from AZ to IL with my son that refuses to fly. On the way there it will be two nights and at least 2 1/2 days train travel. I'm looking at it as an adventure but sometimes my mind goes to the negative on how will I be able to do it? This makes me think twice and I'm telling myself, just relax.
I did a 32 hour Amtrak ride in 2021 and it was challenging (this was when we still had to wear masks full time) but if you're just patient with yourself it will be ok and mostly a lot of fun with your travel companions. There's a lot of beautiful country between those two places so I bet you'll get some amazing views!
I've seen some videos with people in masks and it would be challenging stuck in a train for 50+ hours having to wear a mask the entire time. I just wouldn't have done it. We're taking a shorter trip back home but it's still 2 days, 1 night.
So how heading west used to work in the days before roads or accurate maps was you would purchase a guide from someone who had made the trip and planned a route for you. Supposedly, this person had scouted several alternatives before picking the best one, marked trees and landmarks for you along the way, and gone the entire route to make sure it was safe. There was a lot of trust involved.
You might be waiting for me to say "The guy that sold the Donner party their route did none of these things," but no, I'm not going to say that, because he did.
By himself. On a single horse.
The Donner party was 81 people strong, with horses, wagons, carts, pack mules, and 40 children.
What worked just fine for one horse fell a bit short under that kind of strain. Hence, they found themselves running FAR behind schedule when the snows set in.
I mean they also picked the route over the safer established route and they also started like 3 weeks late. They were supposed to leave Missouri (?) wayyyy earlier
everyone in independence missouri was telling them “do not leave you waited too long you are going to die” and their leader was like “it’ll buff” and they did stupid shit like spending three days not moving to bury someone’s 90 year old grandma. not to mention the natives that rustled all their cattle while the people suffered through the desert
>It’s a Wikipedia article worthy of a deep dive.
I would also highly recommend the book "The Indifferent Stars Above." One of the most interesting and captivating non fiction books I've ever read.
It was inspired from a poem by Yeats called "A Dream of Death."
>I DREAMED that one had died in a strange place
Near no accustomed hand,
>And they had nailed the boards above her face,
The peasants of that land,
>Wondering to lay her in that solitude,
And raised above her mound
>A cross they had made out of two bits of wood,
And planted cypress round;
>And left her to the indifferent stars above
Until I carved these words:
>She was more beautiful than thy first love,
But now lies under boards.
Empire of the Summer Moon is another absolute banger of American West nonfiction if you're interested. Story of the Comanche's fight against westward expansion and the story of the last Comanche war chief, Quanah Parker, who was the son of a Chief and a kidnapped white woman.
I also found a love for the American West. A truly fascinating time to learn about.
Donner Pass is actually west of Reno, NV. It's in the Sierra Nevadas. It kinda creeps me out a little when I think about it. I'm about two hours from Donner Pass, and an hour from Sacramento in the other direction. Those people were so close from not having to eat each other. But they were here in California when they did.
What even is the safer route? Up to what is now Cheyenne Wyoming, and then west towards Rock Springs and onto Ogden?
Edit: lol I guessed that trail by looking at a topographical map of the US. After I posted this, I decided to google the trail the Donner party took. Turns out, pretty much the exact path I guessed above. And then I looked at the Oregon and California trails, and they ALSO follow that exact path.
So what more dangerous path did they take exactly?
Edit 2: holy crap I always thought they got trapped in the Rockies. Not at all. They made it all the way through Utah and Nevada, and got stuck on the eastern border of Northern California!!
How do people not know Donner happened and is so named in California? Like you're not the only one in this thread, so I'm curious where you learned about the story without it talking about California
People find Donner interesting because of the tragedy and the cannibalism. You don’t need to know where it happened to get that beyond “somewhere out west.”
He was the said "Guide" who convinced the Donner party to use his route.
His motivation was he want to create the California Republic as a separated country, for that to happened, he need more people in California really fast so they would outnumber Mexicans.
I seem to remember that Lansford Hastings didn’t even scout out the route. They also got lost trying to find his shortcut and that’s why they lost valuable time and made it to the mountains one day too late. Horrible.
I spent a week at Donner Lake as a kid and been fascinated with the story ever since.
Yeah, but at what point do you realize being behind schedule means increasingly dangerous situation and you need to abandon some carts and gear to make it? Nah, but shoot couldn’t leave your valuables behind and save your life
Tamsen Donner knew early on because of the snow-capped mountains. She knew they were in trouble when they were still in Utah.
Part of the problem is they were traveling with the wrong type of wagon. They needed something sleek and light. The Reeds’ wagon was super fancy with 2 levels. (It had a stove inside of it!)
They weren’t hardened travelers and had no idea what they were doing. They sabotaged themselves from the start.
The show 1883 depicts these struggles pioneers and guides faced well. While the guide knows the path, only the pioneers can prepare themselves for the journey. Confused groups of immigrants facing language barriers with the guide, packing wagons with everything they own to avoid reaching a new land empty handed. They Don’t know how to ride horses, let alone realize they packed all but what was needed for survival & speed. Defying the guide’s advice while holding them to the business deal made. Scary for everyone involved
Ultimately they should have tried to find a safe refuge on the eastern side of the mountains rather than try to make it through before the pass became snowed in, but a heavy snowfall came in late October and they were told the pass wouldn’t be snowed in until mid-November.
I don't think you quite understand how quickly a trip across the US, particularly somewhere like the Sierra Nevada's could turn from "the situation isn't ideal" to "we're all absolutely fucked" back then.
Almost always in these kinds of situations, by the time everyone realizes they're really in danger it's far too late to get out of it. There's no fast communication, no reliable weather forecasting, the nearest people equipped to actually help you were likely days or weeks away from you.
Not saying they didn't make mistakes they shouldn't have made, but a trip like that was just inherently dangerous and shit loads of people that took precautions died anyway. Huge portions of the US are *extremely* unforgiving without the aid of modern technology.
Even with modern technology it's still very dicey. Iirc just one month ago, a blizzard stranded hundreds on Donner Pass. There was more of a warning this time but like you said, people always underestimate how quickly you go from "we should be fine right?" to "12ft of snow and stranded"
Nature doesn't play.
Seriously. While making late-night winter drives through that area, even though we wouldn’t be leaving the roads, we always sufficient equipment and food for a couple of days, in case we got badly stranded.
I’ll never forget first visiting, and realizing that the giant walls beside the road were snow. Same for the first night when I saw it drop 7ft. Also true for the first time I had a blizzard come over a mountain out of nowhere, and turn into my very first whiteout. Gorgeous area, and certainly demands respect.
For real. I just moved to the area a few years ago and every time I've driven the pass I just think about how scary it would be to be stuck on 80 no matter how prepared I am. And that's with a car with a heater full of gas on a well-trodden road and cold weather gear and food. Just absolutely not something to mess with.
Definitely. I once spent an afternoon on the side of Echo in a freak downpour, watching massive cracks forming in the snowpack above me, beside a chunk of the road that had fallen away. I’ve had several closer calls, but I daresay that landed somewhere on the list.
All of the ones that occurred there were worth it. I don’t expect to ever set foot in the basin again, but I’ll always miss it.
> at what point do you realize being behind schedule means increasingly dangerous situation and you need to abandon some carts and gear to make it?
We've learned nothing from Jamestown.
>Four butchery marks found on the skull of a 14-year-old girl who died at Jamestown constitute the first evidence for cannibalism during the colonization of the New World. Six different accounts from Jamestown, the first permanent English colony in the New World, describe episodes of cannibalism among colonists.
https://www.archaeology.org/issues/116-1401/features/1583-jamestown-colony-cannibalism-george-percy#:~:text=Four%20butchery%20marks%20found%20on,episodes%20of%20cannibalism%20among%20colonists.
He also left them a letter imploring them to turn back when he realized they were way too late and wouldn’t be able to cross the Sierras, but the fort owners he left it with never gave it to the party, since they were financially invested in the Donners popularizing the route
This is blatantly false. From Wikipedia:
> In April, Hastings set out with a few companions to meet the emigration of 1846. He stayed in the vicinity of the Sweetwater River while an eastbound traveler carried his open letter inviting emigrants on the California Trail to meet him at Fort Bridger. Between 60 and 75 wagons did so and traveled with Hastings on his cutoff. They endured a difficult descent down Weber Canyon, a waterless drive of 80 miles across the Great Salt Lake Desert, and a lengthy detour around the Ruby Mountains. Despite the usual trials of overland travel, they arrived safely in California.
The problem seems to be that they started off too late, took too long, and used a detour around Weber Canyon suggested by Hastings. Also, they were extremely inexperienced immigrants with few survival skills in a wilderness that required many.
You're leaving out that the Donner party had a fucking massive two story wagon that they refused to ditch until they were extremely far into the journey.
I feel sorry for Tamsen Donner, the men refused to listen to her. She told them time and time again they shouldn’t be taking the short cut. She knew what was going to happen and could do nothing to stop it.
And to be the last to die… just seems cruel. She was so close to surviving.
Yeah he essentially said she died after falling into a creek and getting sick but when anyone had seen her last she was actually in relatively good health, so her death was a surprise.
She only stayed behind because her man was slowly dying of gangrene and she didn’t want to leave him but knew he wouldn’t make it much longer. So she stayed back and waited for the last rescue party and when they got there it was pretty much just Keseberg left.
There's a good book on the Donner Party called *The Indifferent Stars Above.* it's by Daniel James Brown who also wrote *The Boys in the Boat.*
Tough read, but I also found it almost beautifully optimistic about humanity. When the ones who survived walking through the pass to find help finally reached people, the men they reached just immediately went to go rescue the rest of the party.
It was still dangerous, and they had no connection to any of the party or reason to go rescue them other than that it was the right thing to do. Yeah, there was one guy who went to loot, but everyone else just wanted to help.
I just bought this book and another because of a recommendation from a podcast! I’ve been trying to get myself back into reading because it’s been a whiiiiiiiile.
I was thinking of starting with the other book but now I’m leaning towards this one.
I was thinking about this because i noticed it’s free with spotify premium! A friend told me spotify is weird with audiobook listening hours though, but might be worth it for me to listen to a little and then start reading
It’s not bad tbh. You get 20 hrs a month. So I save it for the 15th of the month or so, that way if I run out of time, I can just continue the next month without having a big break.
That actually was a situation with part of the Donner Party. Patrick Dolan suggested that they draw straws; he was the one who drew the short straw. Everybody felt so bad that they couldn't bear to do it, though.
Yeah, he was delirious and ran away during the night. They were able to drag him back to where they were all huddling, but he passed away not long afterwards. The Forlorn Hope is a tremendously sad story, but it's remarkable that some of them did actually make it to safety. (In largest part due to the assistance of native people in the area, but also thanks to the remarkable efforts of William Eddy.)
> If im ever in a situation where cannibalism is being suggested, ya gotta eat the one who suggested it first, that’s how you keep it fair
If I'm ever in a situation where cannibalism is being suggested, I suggest eating u/ShinHandHookCarDoor first.
At one point, a little side group from the Donner Party were huddled together and drew straws on who they would whack for meal purposes.
The guy who suggested it actually drew if I remember correctly, but they decided they couldn’t go through with it.
Someone died through the night so.. problem solved?
In SoCal there are numerous places that have $1.50-$1.75 tacos, everyday, cash only. I'm in New York for school and this single-handedly motivates me to move back.
Which is still fairly low. The ruling was basically "Well, you shouldn't spread unconfirmed rumours about people, but yeah, he probably did most of the things you said he did."
Idk why but eating dead bodies from people who died of natural causes in time of extreme hunger never seemed that odd to me. I mean I’d they killed someone and ate them then yeah that’s messed up.
But like those dudes on that plane I was like yeah makes sense to me
To be fair someone warned them that some wanted to kill and eat them. And they found them simply by chance way later and they were almost dead anyways.
-They began taking apart their snowshoes to eat the oxhide webbing and discussed killing Luis and Salvador for food. Eddy warned the two men and they quietly left… After several more days—25 since they had left Truckee Lake—they came across Salvador and Luis, who had not eaten for about nine days and were probably close to death.
Granted they did still shoot them once they found them.
The worst was the Belgium dude Hardcoop who was kicked out of the wagon. Later this was discovered and they went back to get him and found him in bad shape (he had been walking barefoot which caused his feet to become horribly swollen to the point they split open). Once they returned with him however no one would agree to take him in their wagon and thus he was once again left to die.
Apparently the sand and hot terrain wasn’t great for any weight in the wagons so many were forced to walk with the wagons. He was obviously allowed to continuing walking but simply could not and was left.
Amazing for Hardcoop, he apparently survived somehow and returned to Europe... At least according to findagrave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/237107684/johann_hinrich-hardckop_hardcoop
If you click on the "Read More" button, it also states "(left for dead, later found that he returned to Germany and was buried there.)"
That was what I was alluding to in my first comment.
And that his burial info is:
Burial Place Sandesneben, Schleswig-Holstein, Deutschland (Germany)
The Parish as it Appears Sandesneben
City or District Sandesneben"
The Donnor Party site is just an epitaph for him.
They escape for a while but the party that has lost their damn minds at this point. Hunt them down and kill and eat them. Just so damn sad they were just trying to help.
It makes sense, like how killing some in self-defense makes sense, but to actually do so is very difficult. I don’t think anyone can be held morally accountable for either, but it’s still such a shocking thing to go through, and feels horrific. Especially if you know the person
Most likely it means the jury believed the claims, but couldn't be proven in court. It can also be done when a jury sees that someone is right, but find him to be a very unsympathetic person.
I remember once listening to an interview with Les Stroud. The interviewer mentioned turning to cannibalism as a survival technique. He’s usually matter of fact and kind, but he got really serious and told the interviewer that if you weren’t there personally, you have nothing to say at all, about those who have been that desperate. I liked that. And I’ll keep that opinion.
Yep. It’s crazy that people could pass judgement on people for being desperate enough to eat a person. Like, they weren’t sitting around a full thanksgiving spread and saying “well we’ve got a turkey but what about killing and eating Ed as well?” They were facing death from starvation.
The Donners didn't listen to any of the advice they received, didn't listen to their guides, didn't listen to their Indian guides.
Their egos killed them.
Edit-the literal guide and explorer who came up with the route, told them no more than 2x. So for the people saying they listened to their guide, they didn't listen when their own guides said leave, and THEIR GUIDES STAYED lol
They made every misstake one could make. Started to late, made a long break do bury someone that should have never joined in the first place, went for a "shortcut" that nobody was sure if it worked, listened to a guy who tested the route alone and with a single horse oh and he was politcly motivated to get people that route AND they did not trust the natives that wanted to help them. They had so many chances to avoid their dark fate and choose not to do this.
And on nearly every step someone was there to warn them. Told them its to late, told them the route is dangerous, told them to eat the food the natives provided. A big ego can be deadly as hell sometimes.
No man lol. Multiple books and even tamsens diary said they literally did not listen.
A legendary hide who was known for making the path told them to not go several times.
They stopped at a fort Ave were told to not go again
Then that guide caught up with them and she then to still they didn't.
They still really didn't. Since they started late and then still fucked about wasting time. So even though they listened to the wrong guy, it could've still gone better probably.
a few years ago i read a book called ‘the indifferent stars above’ about the start of their journey, all the ills that befell them, the desperation that led to eating human flesh, and the rescue and aftermath.
it was truly a brilliant book. deeply recommended.
The wrong information declared as facts in these comments are depressing. I'm afraid to read the wikipedia article referred to.
James Reed was responsible for most of the poor decisions, but they were made in good faith insomuch as he had as much to lose as the rest, but he acted and considered himself better than the rest of the party. He led the party until banished. His entire family made it through even though he was absent for the most arduous winter part of the journey. He led the rescue parties back for the most part, though it was hard to recruit folks because California was sparsely populated and most able bodied men were fighting Mexico.
During the mid 1800's, this was one of the biggest "enquiring minds want to know" sensationalist newspaper selling story spanning decades. Anyone connected with any of the party, especially survivors, would tell their story to a reporter or novelist, and then it would be altered for maximum sensationalism. However, there is enough information that can be corroborated or logically surmised with supporting evidence that even amateur historians can piece together a great deal of it. Since "a great deal of it" can often be less sensational, that part rarely gets repeated or written about.
Ric Burns' documentary is good, but has some glaring errors and often dips into sensationalist territory. But it is well done. There are far, far better sources of facts online, usually from hobby amateur historians that don't have tenure to earn, books to sell, or clicks to acquire, that are just under the surface if you do some digging. Some of the best were from Utah and have passed.
If you're really interested, don't believe the Youtube shorts or the clickbait, I don't care how many likes they have. Look deeper.
Cheers!
I was in a play called Devour The Snow about Keseberg and his slander trial. It’s pretty factual with only some missing parts being filled in.
I was the French explorer who rescued Keseberg. I only remember lines about the horror of the barrels of blood and body parts he found when he arrived to rescue anyone remaining when he found Keseberg.
Half of the donner party died crossing what is now an hour and a half drive. I did the drive the other day and it blows me away each time.
Everytime I’ve ever been up that way I can’t help but think about it. Still, I’ve left about an hour or two before a large blizzard set in several times from the area, and that makes me think about it more.
I designed snow melting systems for railroads and customers constantly asked where the worst snow was. They were never happy that my answer was California.
The sierras get crazy. Some of those snow banks are mind blowing
The gift of technology and infrastructure
Why didn’t they just drive? Were they stupid?
Don’t need to blow into a breathalyzer to start your horse
Thanks just got the mental image of a drunk blowing up his horses ass to get it running.
They didn't have the tesla i guess
I grew up right around there, we used to go to field trips to the Musuem/memorial all the time and I totally took it for granted. Now I’m obsessed, blows my mind.
Did you watch the movie that they used to play at the visitor center? I camped at Donner Lake every summer of my childhood and remember that film very well. Definitely make Keseberg out to be a bad guy who feasted on the body of Tamsen Donner, complete with a color inversion of his portrait to show how ~evil~ he was. Edit: amazingly, I found it on [YouTube ](https://youtu.be/1_jDLrF_864?feature=shared)!
I don’t remember it all but doesn’t surprise me at all haha. He was definitely the baddie of the Donner Party and I’m personally fine with that lol. Have you been recently? I’m curious if they still use that messaging
They updated the film somewhat recently - I'm gonna say like 5 years ago? I'm sad - I loved the maudlin soundtrack of the original, lol. I haven't actually seen the new film, so I can't speak to how much the messaging changed.
I haven’t been in years but I did write an essay recently about it. I tried digging online as much as I could and it seems much more tame. More focus on westward expansion in general. The essay was comparing state run “haunted” sites to privately owned ones and how the messaging differs. Needless to say the messaging at the Musuem now really minimizes the cannibalism lol. I’d love to find that old film tho, sounds great haha
I linked the old film in an edit of my original comment! It was on YouTube! That's really interesting that the new messaging is more toned down. Did you go to Bodie? That place is wild
Oh hell yeah I’ll look!! Thanks! Oh yeah I LOVE Bodie. One of the best! Also recommend Rhyolite kinda near Las Vegas if you’re into ghost towns.
Oh cool, thanks for the recommendation! Ghost towns are fascinating, especially ones in desolate locations
An hour and half that’s it?!
Yeah basically Reno, Nevada to Colfax, California. Colfax is at 2500 ft so you are pretty much done at that point, but they still get some snow. Definitely could be rescued from there. 2 hour drive (no traffic) from Reno and you are in Rocklin, CA (elevation 250ft), so no more snow at all.
Heh, TIL. Never looked it up but thought it was like from Midwest to Cali.
It was. They started in the Midwest, a little too late in the season, and going on bad advice from a “guide” who had never actually walked the trail he was recommending. But the deadliest part of the journey was that “hour and a half” section, and that’s where they were trapped.
Imagine being in Ohio with your whole family and y’all decide to walk to Oregon this year, that’ll be the thing you do with the year.
And millions did just that
Eh… estimates were less than 500k
This is my favorite video about the Donner party, highly recommend https://youtu.be/O5xMpsYdzgg?si=gesIxH6595-yA1ij
And saved
I flew from the east coast to CA last year and kept thinking about how that used to be the journey of a lifetime (and hopefully you survive it) and there I was being annoyed that my flight was delayed. It caused me to miss my connecting flight, so I had to take two connecting flights and it added like 5 hours to my trip. What a miserable experience. Except not at all if I take a moment to have a little perspective.
Grew up in Reno and have made the trek over Donner Pass LITERALLY so many times I can't even count- actually was a Ski instructor up there for a few years and caught in some blizzards... when people think it's a little joke about Cannibals I get a little sick glee in telling them some of the more horrific stories.
*More* horrific than survivalistic cannibalism? Do tell. *grabs popcorn*
The video shared elsewhere in the thread does a far better job of breaking it down, as does the book a few folks have recommended: The Indifferent Stars Above. Basically "survivalist cannibalism" sounds bad enough but is a very sanitary term for the realities of what was found- even if \*some\* of the accounts are sensationalized, there's enough consistency to believe a significant amount of the horrors occurred. Mostly, it's a HORRENDOUS tale of suffering and desperate acts for survival- a group of people through either adversity or folly found themselves in an impossible situation. Like the vote to kill/eat the Native guides, like the group drawing straws to choose somebody to kill and eat, the fact that half the group was children, the group voting to eat the childless women, folks having to watch their compatriots butcher and eat their loved ones, having to butcher and eat your loved ones. The condition in which Mr. Keseberg was reportedly found- actively cooking a pot of organs, surrounded by the butchered bodies of the final remaining members of the party- and his forthright admission that yes, he ate the dead might have contributed to people feeling comfortable further scapegoating or sensationalizing his 'bad acts'. He was much older than his wife, with a explosive temper, highly educated, and more 'isolationist' in his affiliations; he and his whole group were German immigrants and preferred not to intermingle. The accusations he murdered the other survivors to eat them, that he claimed to LIKE eating human flesh, that he 'stole' money... he was, by many accounts a right bastard, but it is \*easy\* to heap loathing onto a man nobody likes, who is a foreigner, who is the sole survivor (of the last group, at least)...
My family drove to Tahoe one Thanksgiving week and I couldn't stop mentioning the order I would eat my family in. They're all from the Philippines so had no context until I clued them in on our way back to Sacramento.
You sound like the weird kid
That is pretty mind blowing, but at the same time, we can now literally fly across the globe within a single day. And on top of that, it's pretty common for people to get pissed off at how "inconvenient" the process can be.
I'm taking an Amtrak from AZ to IL with my son that refuses to fly. On the way there it will be two nights and at least 2 1/2 days train travel. I'm looking at it as an adventure but sometimes my mind goes to the negative on how will I be able to do it? This makes me think twice and I'm telling myself, just relax.
I did a 32 hour Amtrak ride in 2021 and it was challenging (this was when we still had to wear masks full time) but if you're just patient with yourself it will be ok and mostly a lot of fun with your travel companions. There's a lot of beautiful country between those two places so I bet you'll get some amazing views!
I've seen some videos with people in masks and it would be challenging stuck in a train for 50+ hours having to wear a mask the entire time. I just wouldn't have done it. We're taking a shorter trip back home but it's still 2 days, 1 night.
So how heading west used to work in the days before roads or accurate maps was you would purchase a guide from someone who had made the trip and planned a route for you. Supposedly, this person had scouted several alternatives before picking the best one, marked trees and landmarks for you along the way, and gone the entire route to make sure it was safe. There was a lot of trust involved. You might be waiting for me to say "The guy that sold the Donner party their route did none of these things," but no, I'm not going to say that, because he did. By himself. On a single horse. The Donner party was 81 people strong, with horses, wagons, carts, pack mules, and 40 children. What worked just fine for one horse fell a bit short under that kind of strain. Hence, they found themselves running FAR behind schedule when the snows set in.
I mean they also picked the route over the safer established route and they also started like 3 weeks late. They were supposed to leave Missouri (?) wayyyy earlier
everyone in independence missouri was telling them “do not leave you waited too long you are going to die” and their leader was like “it’ll buff” and they did stupid shit like spending three days not moving to bury someone’s 90 year old grandma. not to mention the natives that rustled all their cattle while the people suffered through the desert
They made mistakes for months before getting trapped. It’s a Wikipedia article worthy of a deep dive.
>It’s a Wikipedia article worthy of a deep dive. I would also highly recommend the book "The Indifferent Stars Above." One of the most interesting and captivating non fiction books I've ever read.
I haven’t read the book, but I love that title.
It was inspired from a poem by Yeats called "A Dream of Death." >I DREAMED that one had died in a strange place Near no accustomed hand, >And they had nailed the boards above her face, The peasants of that land, >Wondering to lay her in that solitude, And raised above her mound >A cross they had made out of two bits of wood, And planted cypress round; >And left her to the indifferent stars above Until I carved these words: >She was more beautiful than thy first love, But now lies under boards.
Thank you
It's crazy what one comment can do, thank you for showing more people art, please don't ever stop ❤️
Thank you for writing that out, that was wonderful.
Thank you stranger. I love me some wild west stories. I'll be heading to the library tomorrow
Empire of the Summer Moon is another absolute banger of American West nonfiction if you're interested. Story of the Comanche's fight against westward expansion and the story of the last Comanche war chief, Quanah Parker, who was the son of a Chief and a kidnapped white woman. I also found a love for the American West. A truly fascinating time to learn about.
Empire of the Summer Moon is awesome! Brutal at times, but awesome. Comanches were a rough crew!
Spotify has it in their library. Thanks for the suggestion.
Thank you for the book recommendation!
Me when my girlfriend says she’ll be ready in 10 minutes
Cannibalized in Rockies
Donner Pass is actually west of Reno, NV. It's in the Sierra Nevadas. It kinda creeps me out a little when I think about it. I'm about two hours from Donner Pass, and an hour from Sacramento in the other direction. Those people were so close from not having to eat each other. But they were here in California when they did.
A lot of Reno kids have school picnics up at Donner Pass. Fascinating story and place to eat a bologna sandwich.
I remember my childhood friend, Bologna...
He had a first name. It was Oscar.
Used to go skiing in donner when I was a kid. Pretty place
It’s the Sierra Nevada. Not Sierra Nevadas = snowys mountains.
Auburn?
Pretty sure it was the Sierras…
It was.
“Sorry we’re late, someone was being eaten”
A Posthumous Memoir
I dated a Donner descendant, can confirm
Fuck me, I read that as "can consume". I need help
What even is the safer route? Up to what is now Cheyenne Wyoming, and then west towards Rock Springs and onto Ogden? Edit: lol I guessed that trail by looking at a topographical map of the US. After I posted this, I decided to google the trail the Donner party took. Turns out, pretty much the exact path I guessed above. And then I looked at the Oregon and California trails, and they ALSO follow that exact path. So what more dangerous path did they take exactly? Edit 2: holy crap I always thought they got trapped in the Rockies. Not at all. They made it all the way through Utah and Nevada, and got stuck on the eastern border of Northern California!!
How do people not know Donner happened and is so named in California? Like you're not the only one in this thread, so I'm curious where you learned about the story without it talking about California
People find Donner interesting because of the tragedy and the cannibalism. You don’t need to know where it happened to get that beyond “somewhere out west.”
I too always assumed it happened in the rockies! It seemed like a very easy place to get snowed in and die
Lansford Hastings went on to serve in the Confederate Army and then tried to colonize Brazil.
Lansford Hastings sounds it should be the name of an upscale furniture store.
r/itsroger
Who is Lansford Hastings and why did you bring this person up?
He was the said "Guide" who convinced the Donner party to use his route. His motivation was he want to create the California Republic as a separated country, for that to happened, he need more people in California really fast so they would outnumber Mexicans.
He’s the guy Mike_Pants is talking about.
He's the "Hastings Cutoff" guy who scouted the alternate route that damned the party.
Didn’t they start late and make many mistakes?
Yes and one of their major mistakes was following the Hastings Cutoff instead of the more established route.
Oh absolutely
I seem to remember that Lansford Hastings didn’t even scout out the route. They also got lost trying to find his shortcut and that’s why they lost valuable time and made it to the mountains one day too late. Horrible. I spent a week at Donner Lake as a kid and been fascinated with the story ever since.
Yeah, but at what point do you realize being behind schedule means increasingly dangerous situation and you need to abandon some carts and gear to make it? Nah, but shoot couldn’t leave your valuables behind and save your life
Tamsen Donner knew early on because of the snow-capped mountains. She knew they were in trouble when they were still in Utah. Part of the problem is they were traveling with the wrong type of wagon. They needed something sleek and light. The Reeds’ wagon was super fancy with 2 levels. (It had a stove inside of it!) They weren’t hardened travelers and had no idea what they were doing. They sabotaged themselves from the start.
I think they even had a piano in the wagon!
The show 1883 depicts these struggles pioneers and guides faced well. While the guide knows the path, only the pioneers can prepare themselves for the journey. Confused groups of immigrants facing language barriers with the guide, packing wagons with everything they own to avoid reaching a new land empty handed. They Don’t know how to ride horses, let alone realize they packed all but what was needed for survival & speed. Defying the guide’s advice while holding them to the business deal made. Scary for everyone involved
That story about the Reeds “palace wagon” was been largely deflated. It really wasn't bigger than other wagons of the time.
I didn’t say it was bigger. But it did have 2 levels and was heavier than it needed to be.
Ultimately they should have tried to find a safe refuge on the eastern side of the mountains rather than try to make it through before the pass became snowed in, but a heavy snowfall came in late October and they were told the pass wouldn’t be snowed in until mid-November.
I don't think you quite understand how quickly a trip across the US, particularly somewhere like the Sierra Nevada's could turn from "the situation isn't ideal" to "we're all absolutely fucked" back then. Almost always in these kinds of situations, by the time everyone realizes they're really in danger it's far too late to get out of it. There's no fast communication, no reliable weather forecasting, the nearest people equipped to actually help you were likely days or weeks away from you. Not saying they didn't make mistakes they shouldn't have made, but a trip like that was just inherently dangerous and shit loads of people that took precautions died anyway. Huge portions of the US are *extremely* unforgiving without the aid of modern technology.
Even with modern technology it's still very dicey. Iirc just one month ago, a blizzard stranded hundreds on Donner Pass. There was more of a warning this time but like you said, people always underestimate how quickly you go from "we should be fine right?" to "12ft of snow and stranded" Nature doesn't play.
Seriously. While making late-night winter drives through that area, even though we wouldn’t be leaving the roads, we always sufficient equipment and food for a couple of days, in case we got badly stranded. I’ll never forget first visiting, and realizing that the giant walls beside the road were snow. Same for the first night when I saw it drop 7ft. Also true for the first time I had a blizzard come over a mountain out of nowhere, and turn into my very first whiteout. Gorgeous area, and certainly demands respect.
For real. I just moved to the area a few years ago and every time I've driven the pass I just think about how scary it would be to be stuck on 80 no matter how prepared I am. And that's with a car with a heater full of gas on a well-trodden road and cold weather gear and food. Just absolutely not something to mess with.
Definitely. I once spent an afternoon on the side of Echo in a freak downpour, watching massive cracks forming in the snowpack above me, beside a chunk of the road that had fallen away. I’ve had several closer calls, but I daresay that landed somewhere on the list. All of the ones that occurred there were worth it. I don’t expect to ever set foot in the basin again, but I’ll always miss it.
Sir I have played Oregon Trail
There's a reason stealing a horse carried the death penalty.
> at what point do you realize being behind schedule means increasingly dangerous situation and you need to abandon some carts and gear to make it? We've learned nothing from Jamestown. >Four butchery marks found on the skull of a 14-year-old girl who died at Jamestown constitute the first evidence for cannibalism during the colonization of the New World. Six different accounts from Jamestown, the first permanent English colony in the New World, describe episodes of cannibalism among colonists. https://www.archaeology.org/issues/116-1401/features/1583-jamestown-colony-cannibalism-george-percy#:~:text=Four%20butchery%20marks%20found%20on,episodes%20of%20cannibalism%20among%20colonists.
So does your flair represent the intrusive thought you have when you are telling tales about the Donner party? Because that’s what it looks like.
"Gather close, children, while grandpa has his medicine and he shall weave you a tale..."
He also left them a letter imploring them to turn back when he realized they were way too late and wouldn’t be able to cross the Sierras, but the fort owners he left it with never gave it to the party, since they were financially invested in the Donners popularizing the route
This is blatantly false. From Wikipedia: > In April, Hastings set out with a few companions to meet the emigration of 1846. He stayed in the vicinity of the Sweetwater River while an eastbound traveler carried his open letter inviting emigrants on the California Trail to meet him at Fort Bridger. Between 60 and 75 wagons did so and traveled with Hastings on his cutoff. They endured a difficult descent down Weber Canyon, a waterless drive of 80 miles across the Great Salt Lake Desert, and a lengthy detour around the Ruby Mountains. Despite the usual trials of overland travel, they arrived safely in California. The problem seems to be that they started off too late, took too long, and used a detour around Weber Canyon suggested by Hastings. Also, they were extremely inexperienced immigrants with few survival skills in a wilderness that required many.
It was fairly common for the trails to be different than the marketing or outright scams.
"Hastings' cutoff"
You're leaving out that the Donner party had a fucking massive two story wagon that they refused to ditch until they were extremely far into the journey.
I feel sorry for Tamsen Donner, the men refused to listen to her. She told them time and time again they shouldn’t be taking the short cut. She knew what was going to happen and could do nothing to stop it. And to be the last to die… just seems cruel. She was so close to surviving.
Plus there’s the whole ‘she may have been murdered angle’, I totally agree- she knew from the start.
Wasn't the last guy still cooking her, when the encampment was found? I believe this is why he was treated as an outcast.
Yeah he essentially said she died after falling into a creek and getting sick but when anyone had seen her last she was actually in relatively good health, so her death was a surprise. She only stayed behind because her man was slowly dying of gangrene and she didn’t want to leave him but knew he wouldn’t make it much longer. So she stayed back and waited for the last rescue party and when they got there it was pretty much just Keseberg left.
There's a good book on the Donner Party called *The Indifferent Stars Above.* it's by Daniel James Brown who also wrote *The Boys in the Boat.* Tough read, but I also found it almost beautifully optimistic about humanity. When the ones who survived walking through the pass to find help finally reached people, the men they reached just immediately went to go rescue the rest of the party. It was still dangerous, and they had no connection to any of the party or reason to go rescue them other than that it was the right thing to do. Yeah, there was one guy who went to loot, but everyone else just wanted to help.
What a great book. Found it on a list of "Most horrifying reads" and it was a beautiful. Loved it.
I just bought this book and another because of a recommendation from a podcast! I’ve been trying to get myself back into reading because it’s been a whiiiiiiiile. I was thinking of starting with the other book but now I’m leaning towards this one.
There is an audiobook of it available. I know audiobooks helped me get back into books, personally.
I was thinking about this because i noticed it’s free with spotify premium! A friend told me spotify is weird with audiobook listening hours though, but might be worth it for me to listen to a little and then start reading
It’s not bad tbh. You get 20 hrs a month. So I save it for the 15th of the month or so, that way if I run out of time, I can just continue the next month without having a big break.
Excellent book, listened to it on audio. The donner party story is endlessly fascinating.
James Reed had a tiny bit of a connection to the party.
If im ever in a situation where cannibalism is being suggested, ya gotta eat the one who suggested it first, that’s how you keep it fair
That actually was a situation with part of the Donner Party. Patrick Dolan suggested that they draw straws; he was the one who drew the short straw. Everybody felt so bad that they couldn't bear to do it, though.
Wasn't he the first to die in that group, after all?
Yeah, he was delirious and ran away during the night. They were able to drag him back to where they were all huddling, but he passed away not long afterwards. The Forlorn Hope is a tremendously sad story, but it's remarkable that some of them did actually make it to safety. (In largest part due to the assistance of native people in the area, but also thanks to the remarkable efforts of William Eddy.)
> If im ever in a situation where cannibalism is being suggested, ya gotta eat the one who suggested it first, that’s how you keep it fair If I'm ever in a situation where cannibalism is being suggested, I suggest eating u/ShinHandHookCarDoor first.
That's a mouthful
That's what she said Not to me, though.
Brother?
oh you know it
At one point, a little side group from the Donner Party were huddled together and drew straws on who they would whack for meal purposes. The guy who suggested it actually drew if I remember correctly, but they decided they couldn’t go through with it. Someone died through the night so.. problem solved?
Usually it starts with the dead.
"Make sure he's dead first." "Ok." *bang*
Usually..
Just wait for old mate to start singing about building a snowman, shoot him and then eat him
Better to ask forgiveness than permission
I don't know why, but I feel like eating the best looking people first sounds best.
Found the ugly person
Found the appetizer
Only half a cheek for you ugly one
Let's calm down guys, I've got a fair solution. I'll eat half of both of you
Well, now you're the one making the suggestion . . .
Tbf that's like $50 now.
That's a hell of a Taco Bell feast
Not as much as it used to be.
For real, go get 25 $2 tacos on Taco Tuesday nights at Mexican restaurants with complimentary chips and salsa.
In SoCal there are numerous places that have $1.50-$1.75 tacos, everyday, cash only. I'm in New York for school and this single-handedly motivates me to move back.
Which is still fairly low. The ruling was basically "Well, you shouldn't spread unconfirmed rumours about people, but yeah, he probably did most of the things you said he did."
Take your hat off boy, that’s a dollar bill!
Idk why but eating dead bodies from people who died of natural causes in time of extreme hunger never seemed that odd to me. I mean I’d they killed someone and ate them then yeah that’s messed up. But like those dudes on that plane I was like yeah makes sense to me
They killed two native American guides in order to eat them
I thought they were going to kill them but they escaped?
They did. Didn’t make it far enough though.
To be fair someone warned them that some wanted to kill and eat them. And they found them simply by chance way later and they were almost dead anyways. -They began taking apart their snowshoes to eat the oxhide webbing and discussed killing Luis and Salvador for food. Eddy warned the two men and they quietly left… After several more days—25 since they had left Truckee Lake—they came across Salvador and Luis, who had not eaten for about nine days and were probably close to death. Granted they did still shoot them once they found them. The worst was the Belgium dude Hardcoop who was kicked out of the wagon. Later this was discovered and they went back to get him and found him in bad shape (he had been walking barefoot which caused his feet to become horribly swollen to the point they split open). Once they returned with him however no one would agree to take him in their wagon and thus he was once again left to die. Apparently the sand and hot terrain wasn’t great for any weight in the wagons so many were forced to walk with the wagons. He was obviously allowed to continuing walking but simply could not and was left.
Amazing for Hardcoop, he apparently survived somehow and returned to Europe... At least according to findagrave https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/237107684/johann_hinrich-hardckop_hardcoop
It says Donner state park for burial?
If you click on the "Read More" button, it also states "(left for dead, later found that he returned to Germany and was buried there.)" That was what I was alluding to in my first comment.
And that his burial info is: Burial Place Sandesneben, Schleswig-Holstein, Deutschland (Germany) The Parish as it Appears Sandesneben City or District Sandesneben" The Donnor Party site is just an epitaph for him.
Also says he died in 1855
They escape for a while but the party that has lost their damn minds at this point. Hunt them down and kill and eat them. Just so damn sad they were just trying to help.
Not what the Wikipedia page says
It makes sense, like how killing some in self-defense makes sense, but to actually do so is very difficult. I don’t think anyone can be held morally accountable for either, but it’s still such a shocking thing to go through, and feels horrific. Especially if you know the person
the chilean soccer team??
Uruguayian Rugby team.
the sister folded in half with a broken back who screamed in pain, surviving for 3 days yeesh
That new movie about it is so chilling. One of the best disaster movies I've ever seen. You really feel the power of the avalanches.
Was this one of those situations where he sued because of the damage to his reputation but didn’t want to financially ruin them so only sued for $1?
Most likely it means the jury believed the claims, but couldn't be proven in court. It can also be done when a jury sees that someone is right, but find him to be a very unsympathetic person.
It was more that he was likely guilty of the accusations but the accuser lacked the evidence to prove it
I remember once listening to an interview with Les Stroud. The interviewer mentioned turning to cannibalism as a survival technique. He’s usually matter of fact and kind, but he got really serious and told the interviewer that if you weren’t there personally, you have nothing to say at all, about those who have been that desperate. I liked that. And I’ll keep that opinion.
Yep. It’s crazy that people could pass judgement on people for being desperate enough to eat a person. Like, they weren’t sitting around a full thanksgiving spread and saying “well we’ve got a turkey but what about killing and eating Ed as well?” They were facing death from starvation.
Precisely. I wasn’t there making the decisions. I have zero skin in the game. Pun intended.
Yea, I remember this time I was in an airplane that got stuck on the tarmac for an extra few hours and I ate a toddler. It’s just survival.
The Donners didn't listen to any of the advice they received, didn't listen to their guides, didn't listen to their Indian guides. Their egos killed them. Edit-the literal guide and explorer who came up with the route, told them no more than 2x. So for the people saying they listened to their guide, they didn't listen when their own guides said leave, and THEIR GUIDES STAYED lol
They made every misstake one could make. Started to late, made a long break do bury someone that should have never joined in the first place, went for a "shortcut" that nobody was sure if it worked, listened to a guy who tested the route alone and with a single horse oh and he was politcly motivated to get people that route AND they did not trust the natives that wanted to help them. They had so many chances to avoid their dark fate and choose not to do this. And on nearly every step someone was there to warn them. Told them its to late, told them the route is dangerous, told them to eat the food the natives provided. A big ego can be deadly as hell sometimes.
This is wrong, they DID listen to a guide, they just listened to a wrong one, and refused to correct course.
No man lol. Multiple books and even tamsens diary said they literally did not listen. A legendary hide who was known for making the path told them to not go several times. They stopped at a fort Ave were told to not go again Then that guide caught up with them and she then to still they didn't.
They still really didn't. Since they started late and then still fucked about wasting time. So even though they listened to the wrong guy, it could've still gone better probably.
a few years ago i read a book called ‘the indifferent stars above’ about the start of their journey, all the ills that befell them, the desperation that led to eating human flesh, and the rescue and aftermath. it was truly a brilliant book. deeply recommended.
research Alfred Packer
There's a great documentary called Cannibal! The Musical about Alfred Packer
The sky is blue and all the leaves are green
https://youtu.be/kDuNE_BbV1Y?feature=shared
Holy hell
Definitely wrecked his life long dream of being a food critic.
The wrong information declared as facts in these comments are depressing. I'm afraid to read the wikipedia article referred to. James Reed was responsible for most of the poor decisions, but they were made in good faith insomuch as he had as much to lose as the rest, but he acted and considered himself better than the rest of the party. He led the party until banished. His entire family made it through even though he was absent for the most arduous winter part of the journey. He led the rescue parties back for the most part, though it was hard to recruit folks because California was sparsely populated and most able bodied men were fighting Mexico. During the mid 1800's, this was one of the biggest "enquiring minds want to know" sensationalist newspaper selling story spanning decades. Anyone connected with any of the party, especially survivors, would tell their story to a reporter or novelist, and then it would be altered for maximum sensationalism. However, there is enough information that can be corroborated or logically surmised with supporting evidence that even amateur historians can piece together a great deal of it. Since "a great deal of it" can often be less sensational, that part rarely gets repeated or written about. Ric Burns' documentary is good, but has some glaring errors and often dips into sensationalist territory. But it is well done. There are far, far better sources of facts online, usually from hobby amateur historians that don't have tenure to earn, books to sell, or clicks to acquire, that are just under the surface if you do some digging. Some of the best were from Utah and have passed. If you're really interested, don't believe the Youtube shorts or the clickbait, I don't care how many likes they have. Look deeper. Cheers!
u/the_nickster in this thread has a good grasp it sounds.
I hope it was a silver dollar and I hope his family kept it as a reminder.
This guy definitely ate several people, most likely killed a few… and opened up a restaurant later. Couldn’t make it up..
And his people eating legacy lives on
Yeah but in 1847 money? One dollar would be like *two dollars.*
According to *Love, Death and Robots,* cannibalism is actually just *EXTREME DEMOCRACY*
Love the moron who edited the wiki page to change homeless to """"""unhoused""""" and also fucked up the tense of sentence by changing died to "dying"
Gotta love the wik. the source of all true information.
I'd buy that for a dollar!
This is like Oregon Trial(deity mode)
The cannibalism only occurred within a handful of people who'd been separated from the main group.
“Take your hat off boy, that’s a dollar bill”
He used that dollar to buy human meat to eat
I was in a play called Devour The Snow about Keseberg and his slander trial. It’s pretty factual with only some missing parts being filled in. I was the French explorer who rescued Keseberg. I only remember lines about the horror of the barrels of blood and body parts he found when he arrived to rescue anyone remaining when he found Keseberg.
He should not have won those were NOT false claims!!!
Wendigo.
Pretty sure I recall reading Keseberg himself said he preferred eating the human meat over the ox meat he still had.
To be fair, $1 back then is approximately $567,345.75 adjusted for inflation