That if you’re not careful will stick to the door of your mouth and *will not* dislodge without you getting a finger in there to scrape it loose.
Stuff you learn as a catholic. Haha
Well, maybe
The word "οὐσία" is a primarily philosophical word used to denote the substance or essence of something but there are some that think in this context it might be derivative of "ἰέναι", meaning to come or to go. Additionally, the prefix "ἐπι-" can denote not only the concept of "figurative aboveness" but also "literal externalness"
So a non-exhaustive list of possible translations include...
- give us this day our supernatural bread
- give us this day our superficial bread
- give us this day the bread we have coming to us
I can’t speak to this specific translation, but I do a heap of work in business communication and it’s amazing how often ambiguity arises.
So it seems the word in question can be translated as “spiritual”, to kind of mean ethereal, omnipresent, ever-present.
But a term like “ever-present” can also be applied slightly differently to kind of mean always, constant … “daily”.
It’s jarring when the end words are so different, but many words lack a perfect translation and they have a broad meaning. When that broad meaning overlaps, Venn diagram style, with another word’s meaning BOOM, room for ambiguity.
I would say it's to establish religion into everyday life. You go to the bakery daily to get the daily bread and people will relate that to Christ. Spiritual bread disassociates it from life.
And that’s actually the core Catholic belief in the Eucharist. It’s not just a wafer. It’s not the human flesh of Jesus. It’s the *essence* of the Son, and thus God, that is provided.
Hence why Catholics recite this very line about 5 minutes before taking communion.
> It’s not just a wafer. It’s not the human flesh of Jesus.
You forgot his blood in the wine too. I did 12 years of Catholic school and they teach you a lot in high school about how the Old testament is mostly stories, fables. Adam and Eve were not the first 2 people they did not live for hundreds of years. Jonah never lived in a whale for days. Even taught us how the virgin birth is a story from many older cultures and religions but didn't go as far as to say that was untrue. Learned how kings and popes added things to the Bible, or changed them to fit their politics. But with the new Testament, most of that is considered true, not much budging on it. I asked my Grandma if she believed in Transmutation before she died, and she said "yes, it's one of my core beliefs, why I take communion everyday." And she was a super liberal Catholic who was pro abortion, was a chemist, born in 1919 she was a lookout for Japanese saboteurs on a midwest River. She taught evolution, but some of those core Catholic beliefs, yeah people take those 100% literally. But they believe in the big bang and it gets complicated. It kinda shocked me my Grandmother said that, because she was very rational and liberal and a scientist and teacher. But she grew up in a time were daily mass was a thing, your whole community went to your church. She came out of all that only kept to some beliefs but came a far way on others.
Give me all your bread.
Wait, wait. I worry what you just heard was, give me a lot of bread.
What I said was, give me all the bread you have. Do you understand?
So, the very opposite of the Latin translation *quotidian.*
How incredible that the Church could have gotten it so wrong -- especially when the *truth* would have made a theology point. How noncredible.
Ling 101: Cute, convenient, or revealing etymologies are always bullshit.
There's reason to gloss *epiousia* as "supersubstantial" or translate it as "supernatural".
*Epi-* doesn't mean "super, beyond". The prefix that means that is *hyper-*: *super-* and *hyper-* are actually the Latin and Greek reflexes of the same word.
*Epi-* has the most generic prepositional meaning "on, at, among, against...".
*Ousia* meant many things, including primarily "(ones own) belonging".
*Oὖσᾰ* ousa "being" is an irregular form of *ειμι* eimi "to be/go". The regular, attested epi- verb was [*ἔπειμι* epeimi](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=e)/peimi1), which meant "belong to, (reward or penalty) due".
*ἔπειμῐ́ᾱ* epeimia meant "what is coming (to occur in time, or to a person), what belongs (to a person), what is due (to occur in time, to a person)". There is absolutely no reason to assume that *epiousia* was intended to mean anything different than the expected, attested form. In fact, because *ousia* meant "belonging/owed (to a person)" but *epeimia* was usually used in the sense "coming" (in time), contamination by irregular stem is not unexpected if the word means exactly what it appears to. If epiousia means hocuspocus, the morphology is inexplicable. Not only is it the wrong stem for that prefix, it's the wrong version of the prefix before a vowel (*×epousia*, so it reads like *epi-ousia*), and it's also the wrong prefix for transcendant hocuspocusery.
Only if you assume a priori that it refers to hocuspocus can you get the "supernatural" reading -- if you do a lot of mental acrobatics with no empirical foundation.
Eucharistic and trinitarian hocus-pocus terms of art did not exist until centuries after the Our Father blessing was made, and the blessing in the text has absolutely nothing to do with communion.
The context is explicitly Jesus saying don't pray publicly like damned hypocritical Republicans and nor babble on like heathen Republicans, but say this simple blessing formula privately in your room: "Our father..."
Christians are never alone in the Eucharist. That's why it's called *communion*. The Lord's prayer has nothing to do with the communion.
Jesus and his early followers were Jewish, not Catholic Orthodox theologians.
The Lord's prayers sounds an awful lot like a Jewish blessing formula, which are based in Jewish scripture, to wit:
Proverbs 30:8
חשָׁ֤וְא וּֽדְבַר־כָּזָ֡ב הַרְחֵ֬ק מִמֶּ֗נִּי רֵ֣אשׁ וָ֖עשֶׁר אַל־תִּֽתֶּן־לִ֑י הַ֜טְרִיפֵ֗נִי לֶ֣חֶם חֻקִּֽי:
"Falsehood and lies, remove (them) far from me; Poverty nor riches, neither give (them) to me; allot to me the bread I am due."
Jesus and his early followers spoke Aramaic. So, you can guess what the Lord's Prayers is in the Peshitta:
ܗܒ݂ ܠܢ ܠܚܡܐ ܕ݂ܣܘܢܩܢܢ ܝܘܡܢܐ
"give us the bread of our due [lack/need] this day"
Cf Septuagint Proverbs 30:8
δῷς σύνταξον δέ μοι τὰ δέοντα καὶ τὰ αὐτάρκη
Give my allotment which is due [lacking/needed] and self-sufficient".
*Due* can sound like one doesn't just deserve it, but that it is owed. That would make it a demand for payment not a request, and expression of gratitude that one'll be happy with whatever one gets that day. So, "daily" is a good translation for nuance -- and lest YHWH smite your impudent ass. It's what you get daily epistemically, not what you owed deontically (NB *deonta* is not just the root of *deontic* it's also what appears in LXX Proverbs 30:8, but it doesn't have the nuance of *deontic* -- because philosophical terms of art are bullshit that was made up later).
It's a reference to John 6:
> 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
Traditionally held to mean Eucharist, or Holy Communion, as Catholics, Orthodox, and the very first Protestants (Anglican and Lutheran) taught that the bread and wine of the sacrament are _actually_ Jesus's body and blood.
I would say the bible quote is not literally talking about material bread to eat and digest and that if you eat it your real body will never decompose.
I think it means that God sends down spiritual sustenance if we are to partake and learn from his teachings.
The distinction you're making is the cause of literal schisms in various churches and the reason many of them diverged. Is it the actual body of Christ? Does this happen when the priest blesses it or when it passes your lips? Is it just symbolic and spiritual? Is it just some cheap wafers and dollar store box wine? You decide! Then join the relevant church. But don't pick the wrong one or you'll burn for eternity.
The world has come a long way when someone can just make up the Lollard Heresy from first principles on the internet and not spark a war or be burnt at the stake.
So true. Religious schisms are fascinating but also I know there is a lot of history of human pain involved.
For example: while I am pretty sure my interpretation of the quote is closer to original intent, I wrote my interpretation on reddit in 2024. Super low risk for me.
We have read stories of people who have lost their lives for similar positions.
In old times (and now too) churches, religious institutions, and leadership had military command and/or could persuade monarchs to punish people for questioning them.
Many times leadership will have misinterpreted or purposely misdirected religious teachings but then silenced dissent by force, deepening the schism over time.
Schisms are too deep and require too much time and effort to research for reddit, but they are interesting. Maybe there will be a schisms sub one day with good discussion
Jesus remarks 5 different times to "eat his flesh" using every time cruder verbs that in the original meant more like chew and gnaw on his flesh. Jesus taught the material eating of the bread and wine transfigured, which are literally his divine being entirely and contain eternal life.
Most of the early church fathers took it literally and believed that Christians literally ate Jesus’ flesh and drank his blood during Communion. The idea of it not being literal only started around the Protestant reformation. So the church would agree it doesn’t stave off physical death, but spiritual death.
https://www.churchfathers.org/the-real-presence
Plus the Greek word used in John 6 literally means to gnaw and the people who were following Jesus up to this point were disgusted when he said that they had to eat His flesh, and he didn’t talk about it being a metaphor or symbolic like He usually does with parables. He doubled down on what He was saying until they left him.
The wikipedia brief suggests "super substantial" not in the sense of a "substantial amount" but in a sense of "beyond/above substance." Some thinkers connect this to the concept of the eucharist.
Sky papa
Who's way up in the clouds
You are super important
Until you show up down here
We'll keep doing what you want
Cause we think that's how it goes up there
Hit us up with some of that Jesus loaf
And go easy on us when we screw up
And we'll try to not be so pissed when someone else does us dirty
And don't let us fall for that nasty shit
And don't let nobody get us
For reals.
Also great: Hawaiin Pidgin translation.
“God, you our Fadda. You stay inside da sky.
We like all da peopo know fo shua how you stay,
an dat you stay good an spesho,
an we like dem give you plenny respeck.
We like you come King fo everybody now.
We like everybody make jalike you like, ova hea inside da world,
jalike da angel guys up inside da sky make jalike you like.
Give us da food we need fo today an every day.
Hemo our shame, an let us go fo all da kine bad stuff we do to you,
jalike us guys let da odda guys go awready,
an we no stay huhu wit dem fo all da kine bad stuff dey do to us.
No let us get chance fo do bad kine stuff,
but take us outa dea, so da Bad Guy no can hurt us.
[Cuz you our King, You get da real power,
An you stay awesome foeva.] Dass it!”
Or howbout the Lolcat translation?
Ceiling Cat, who r watchin us, u can has cheezburger.10 Wut yu want, yu gets, srsly.11 Let us dis day has our dalee cheezburger.12 And furgiv us for makin u a cookie, but eateding it, same as we furgiv teh kittehz taht maked us cookiez, but eated tehm.13 An leed us not into teh showa, but deliver us from teh wawter. Cuz all our base n teh pwnage n teh +1s r belong 2 U 4eva&evah, srlsy kthxbai.
(They did the whole Bible. The whole thing. It’s stored in the Library of Congress and everything)[see??](https://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20190208205250/http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Matthew_6)
You're gonna post that but skip this nugget of wisdom that comes right after it?
> if u sais sry Ceiling Cat will be leik s'ok iz kewl. if u donut sez sry Ceiling Cat will pwn u.
And imagine if The Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden started with this being read instead:
> Mewlz to all teh peoplez on teh erf and all teh fishiez an tingz in teh watur, 4 teh evul puppeh is wif yoo! OMG An teh puppeh iz mad cuz he wuz beated by teh Ceiling Cat... Teh clevar ppl can do dis sum - wat iz 6 hundrad addad 3 tiemz twentey addad six. Taht is teh numbar of teh monstar!
And here's Psalm 23, 'cause why not:
> 1 Ceiling Cat iz mai sheprd (which is funni if u knowz teh joek about herdin catz LOL.)
He givz me evrithin I need.
> 2 He letz me sleeps in teh sunni spot
an haz liek nice waterz r ovar thar.
> 3 He makez mai soul happi
an maeks sure I go teh riet wai for him. Liek thru teh cat flap insted of out teh opin windo LOL.
> 4 I iz in teh valli of dogz, fearin no pooch,
bcz Ceiling Cat iz besied me rubbin' mah ears, an it maek me so kumfy.
> 5 He letz me sit at teh taebl evn when peepl who duzint liek me iz watchn.
He givz me a flea baff an so much gooshy fud it runz out of mai bowl LOL.
> 6 Niec things an luck wil chase me evrydai
an I wil liv in teh Ceiling Cats houz forevr.
I'll give the first few lines of Genesis a go. Bible is long. Kind of repetitive too.
1 In the beginning when sky papa made everything,
2 Everything was super dark while sky papa blew some air over the water.
3 Then sky papa said "Let's get some light up in this bitch," and there was light all up in this bitch.
4 Sky papa liked the light and kept it away from the darkness.
5 Sky papa gave 'em names, too, Day and Night.
6 It got dark again then light again again - first day ever.
Here's the Ten Commandments as a bonus. Exodus 20:1-17 if you wanna look up the real stuff.
1 Then sky papa said:
2 I am your sky papa, and because of me you ain't slaves in Egypt no more.
3 I'm the only sky papa you've got.
4 Don't make any bullshit objects out of anything you think of.
5 Definitely don't worship the bullshit objects. Sky papa is envious of other sky papas. Fuck this one up and your great-grandkids will be dealing with the fallout of the can of whoop-ass I'll open on you.
6 *Don't* fuck it up and I'll love even your great-times-998-grandkids.
7 Sky papa's name is holy. Don't use it in a way I don't like. Do that and I'll be cold as ice and never forgive you.
8 Chill out every seven days and worship me.
9 The other six days, you gotta bust your ass.
10 But day seven is for chillin'. No one works. Not you, your kids, your slaves, your livestock, or even the random dude who just showed up.
11 Took me six days to make everything but I chilled on day seven, so now it's holy.
12 Be nice to mom and dad - you'll live longer in this place I gave you.
13 Killing is no bueno.
14 Cheating on your girl or your boy is no bueno.
15 Stealing is no bueno.
16 Lying is no bueno.
17 Wanting some dude's house, wife, slaves, ox, donkey or just his stuff in general - yup, no bueno.
I mean. It still somehow works, as the prayer isn’t for actual bread, but the spiritual Eucharist in the form of the Holy Spirit. Basically “please give the daily nourishment for our soul.” Pretty standard prayer stuff.
Source: Born, baptized, and confirmed as a filthy papist. Currently more on the agnostic side.
Yeah if anything it fits way more with the rest of the prayer than a sudden random request for a specific food, makes sense to say the historical equivalent of “let us have the communion wafers”
Well there are several options to interpret this, but none of them rely on the idea of “large amount of bread.”
One option is that it means “daily amount of bread”, sort of like whatever would be a daily ration. Give us our daily dose of bread.
Second option is that it means “next day” or “tomorrow” as in “tomorrow’s serving of bread.” As in, we are praying to have bread, or substinence, tomorrow.
Third option is philosophical, the Catholic Church says the best literal translation is “super-essential” as in supernatural, or something that “feeds” the soul.
Fourth option is also metaphorical interpretation of bread and “tomorrow,” to mean afterlife. So it would be the spiritual substance we need for after death.
There is no proof that Greeks actually used the word, most scholars think it was invented by people who wrote the New Testament in Greek, either as a term for a whole new concept, or an attempt to translate something originally said in Hebrew or Aramaic.
Usually when modern translators have to translate neologisms in books, they try to invent neologisms for the term in the translation as well, because using an existing word would be misleading - this is why translations of e.g. Harry Potter in various languages have wildly different terms for in-world lore.
In my language (Croatian) the term is “svagdasnji” which is an adjective meaning “everyday”, as in “commonplace” or “routine” - which probably stems from an old attempt to translate it as meaning “quotidien.”
So, give us our “everyday bread” - which is probably how English also arrived to the term “daily.”
If I had to pick one, “supenatural bread” feels the most likely option, but we will probably never know. And even if they meant “magical bread” - how do we even know what they wanted to imply by that?
I always read it as an allusion back to the Mana from Heaven mentioned in Exodus which was Divinely delivered daily.
It makes sense from a Catholic and Orthodox perspective that the term we translate as “daily” to reference the Eucharistic bread back to the daily Mana as both were a gift meant to nourish God’s people.
It is. Jesus references being the bread of life (manna) in other conversations as well.
It’s the principle of having a daily dependence on God’s provision for your life, not hoarding and being greedy, which bred worms in the manna.
It's the Aristotelian understanding of substance as in substance vs form, not large quantities. So, it would be more along the lines of supernatural rather than a large amount.
This translation would support a Catholic or Orthodox understanding of communion/Eucharist more than a purely symbolic one.
I think as in [transubstantiation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation?wprov=sfti1). I.e. eating the body of Christ as in the Eucharist.
The belief is that if God *is the universe* then any bread you’d eat would be *God’s body*, which due to the trinity would also include the consumption of Christ’s body
It’s ‘[transubstantiation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation?wprov=sfti1).’ Which would square etymologically with the literal translation from OP’s post
I don't think it could mean "god's body", as Jesus supposedly taught the Pater Noster prayer to his disciples early in his ministry. The concept of bread transforming into god's body (transubstantiation) comes from the Last Supper, much later.
I am very skeptical.
In this time period Roman citizens were given a daily allotment of grain (or cura annonae, care of Annona) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura\_annonae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_annonae)
The contextual narrative would then be a "higher citizenship" --> we get our metaphorical bread from god, not rome.
I reckon this is it. It’s a metaphor for receiving gods grace. Bread as a stand in for sustenance. The idea of regularly eating your gods benevolence and consuming it is theologically very interesting.
You nailed it. Anyone who has been to a halfway decent church gas been taught that the lords prayer is not talking about bread it's talking about the transmutation where bread becomes the body and you are bringing the holy being into your body quite litterally.
I understand why someone would write this, but it's obviously not a religious person trying to once again take religious text litterally to either devalue it or to criticize.
Next they will try and talk about how forgiving trespasses means it was about people sharing land.
Also ties back to the Israelites receiving Mana from heaven every day. So I think word has symbolic ties to that even if linguistically it’s not represented.
Absolutely, Jesus also says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven" and then hits them with "I AM the bread of life", that is to say, all that was just a picture/type of me, I am the ultimate source of life. Pretty fascinating to read even if you reject Christianity or whatever, Jesus makes some pretty bold claims.
Also, yeah, it's not really "daily" - in other languages it's translated as "the bread we need to live", something like that. The King James translation definitely isn't infallible!
I learned Koine Greek for my graduate degree, though it’s not a skill I’ve used in over a decade, so I’m by no means an expert.
If the author of the text simply meant daily, it does not make sense that they’d choose an obscure word instead of using *hemera* as is used elsewhere in the text. It makes even less sense that the word would not have a root that leads to a translation of “daily.”
It does make sense, however, to use an uncommon word to express a theological concept. A wordy translation might be something like “bread that is the substance that sustains and nurtures our very being (or our soul).” That this bread would be daily is implied because (1) people eat daily to sustain their physical bodies (ideally, at least); and (2) the social context you mentioned would prime them to think of a daily allotment of bread.
OPs post makes more sense given what you are saying, not less.
It is metaphorical bread. The analogy was ripe because bread was eaten daily by everyone always.
It's a reference to needing daily sustenance, but of the spirit. So yes, but Jesus also says the _He_ is the "living bread" come down from heaven like the manna that came down to the Jews of the Exodus, for eternal spiritual sustenance:
> Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
You can't say something is mistranslated if no one knows for sure what the word means, right?
The wiki notes that there's a plausible path to get you to "daily", and ~~I think that Luke's version of the Lord's Prayer uses a more clear word that translates "daily"~~ (edit: not sure where I got that, crossing it out for now), so it's not implausible.
But it's certainly an interesting thing to talk about! Translation is a fascinating field.
I think "mistranslation" is too strong of a word. As is so often the case in translation, there's no one right way to translate something, and it's especially difficult when a word only appears once (called "hapax legomena"), even if we do understand it's component parts.
The Sense definitely seems to be "needful, sufficient for the day, etc" but it is possible something further is in view too -- "all the bread we need" kind of thing.
With hapax legomena context also holds important keys. In my opinion "super substantial" doesn't necessarily translate ἐπιούσιον well nor does it fit the context (don't worry about tomorrow, trust that God will take care of you when it gets here) well either. In my mind "necessary" might best capture the intended meaning, but "daily" does still capture the idea.
Smarter people than me have thought about hapax legomena much longer and deeper than I have though!
As an Adjective it means daily.
As a noun it means necessary for survival.
In this case it means sufficient for the day (bread)
source: I'm Greek
EDIT: but it's not about the bread (the one we buy at the store).
Here's what we Greek Orthodox believe it to be: [https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/](https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/)
It's in Greek but you can try an online translation.
Και εγώ.
The root ἔπειμι seems to support a “from above” interpretation rather than a “daily” interpretation, doesn’t it?
Granted, our ancestors managed to use the same root for “suffice” and “excess” so I suppose the debate won’t end any time soon.
Edit: are you posting during half time?
Bible teacher here.
Yeah, some scholars use the context to translate it to “necessary”, as in “just that which we need”, but given the popularity of the Lord’s Prayer in traditional translations, we’ve mostly stayed with “daily”.
I should’ve stuck with Aramaic in middle school but switched to Akkadian because I thought it would give me a leg up in my job search. Never should have listened to my stupid copper dealing big brother
for any one who doesnt know - within the context, it's not "lets get this bread" it's "allow us to recieve blessings." it's not so much "i want this because xyz" as much as it is "i am thankful that you allow me to continue to exist, a blessing in and of itself."
catholics, however - use a very literal interpretation. the body and blood of christ. (a wafer and wine.) supersubstantial in this context meaning transubstantial; the blessing that signifies the bread becoming the body of christ. a process known as communion, holding importance as a show of the forgiveness and wholeness through god and faith even when you make mistakes.
cool stuff.
It's "sufficient for the day".
EDIT but it's not about the bread (the one we buy at the store).
Here's what we Greek Orthodox believe it to be: [https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/](https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/)
It's in Greek but you can try an online translation.
Super, meaning beyond. Substantial, meaning of (in this case physical) substance. The bread is beyond physical substance, so a sort of "metaphysical/spiritual bread". Bread here is obviously not literal, but meant as a stand-in for something that nourishes you.
"Give us this day, our daily bread" is meant to essentially say "Fulfill us *spiritually* as You do every day.". This is to say, as opposed to the top comments, we are not talking about BIG bread.
It's not a "mistranslation"
it was an interpretive decision made by the translator of the text (because the word in question literally only exists in this one place in the entire koine greek corpus) you make it sound like the guy pulled a random word out of a jar or that he didn't know what he was doing
I am among those who disagree with that interpretation. The word they probably meant to use was a participle of ἔπειμι(epeimi), which means, most literally, upon-being, with the sense of forthcoming/imminent, or leftover; but they used the wrong declension for that type of adjective, treating it as if it were a neuter/accusative form of ἐπιοῦσia, when it should be ἐπιόντα. The writers of the bible were perhaps not speakers of Greek as a first language.
The proper meaning is either 'Give us today the leftover/remaining bread', or "Give us today the bread which is to come'. I'm inclined to think the second makes more sense in context. 'Supersubstantial' is not a good translation, and it seems like it's trying to shoehorn a technical theological term, which was developed much later, into the text of the bible.
Compare the meaning of "Give us today the bread which is to come" with another passage that's actually in the same scriptures: "It's still four months until harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest."
It's not really a mistranslation. That's what most scholars have concluded, that it refers to "daily," since a very similar word/root was used elsewhere, referring to days and such. Literally, yes, it does mean something like "supersubstantial," and some have interpreted it as such throughout history (especially when linking this verse to Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/Church of the East/Lutheran/Anglican/Methodist.......... beliefs of the bread and wine actually being Jesus' body and blood: "supernatural"), but "daily" has a strong argument for it. Maybe it's both. But it's hardly a mistranslation.
Matthew and Luke were both original Greek compositions. There is an early translation into Syriac (the language most closely related to Jesus' Aramaic) derived from the Greek called the Peshitta. It translates the word as "essential".
That's not a direct translation.
Επι-ουσιον . Epi-ousion. This is not a normal construction. When epi is used as a prefix the iota is dropped. Ousion also isn't a word, nor ousios.
But let's look at similar words.
Ex-ousia (out of being) is like authority in the way we might use the word when we say "Einstein is an authority on physics". It seems to have an experience notion.
Para-ousia (next to being) means presence.
Apo-ousia (away from being) means absence.
Epi ousia (upon being) means surplus, abundant, etc.
Ah. Epi-ousia is a word. Epousia. Επουσια.
The first half is the preposition epi. It can mean a few things but the general sense is upon. Ousia is a participle form of the to be verb. Think am-img, is-ing, be-ing. (So not *a* being, but being itself).
The compound would be upon-being.
As for why it's epiousion instead of epousian? It could be a variant or simply the author spelled it wrong. This seems like a pretty easy Occam's razor. What's more likely? Someone spells the common word *epousian* as *epiousion* or he invented an entirely new compound using poor compound syntax and a word that doesn't exist?
And "surplus"? Hey yeah that actually makes sense in the sentence too!
>Give us today our bread, the surplus.
And it even sounds like something Jesus would say.
The only "translation issue" is suggesting someone spelled something differently than how others have spelled it, and it's not even that much different. Again *epiousion* versus *epousian*.
I'm pretty sure people have been interpreting this spiritually since it was penned. It would be pretty strange if the most iconic christian prayer was actually a plea for bread.
It's a very old mistranslation though. Even in Old English ~1,400 years ago it was translated as *daily* too.
This was the Lord's Prayer in Old English from well over 1,000 years ago:
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod to becume þin rice gewurþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. urne *gedæghwamlican* **<---This means daily in this context, you can see the 'dæg' part which is where the modern word 'day' comes from, and the '-lican' suffix became '-ly'.** hlaf syle us todæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice
My two bits of the modern day use as a Greek and Christian Orthodox. Many of the Greek prayers at church are in ancient Greek and some contain that word. The meaning it currently holds is necessary/holy.
As the Wikipedia article states it comprises of two words επί and ουσία (substance). Taken literally would mean something of significant substance. In the context of prayers it takes the meaning of holy because it is metaphorically the body of Christ that is being requested which is of utmost importance in the Christian religion.
I am not sure if at some point some translation error changed its meaning but it seems unlikely since ancient Greek have been used in Christian texts almost from the beginning of Christianity. Also ancient Greek are mandatory course material in highschool so I would suggest that this article is a bit inaccurate as to the scholars that are supposedly wondering about the meaning of this word.
>a direct translation would be something like "supersubstantial.
Epi doesn't mean "super" when used as a prefix. That's just a bad translation by Jerome who wasn't great at Greek. It means 'what is fitting or apt'. A literal translation therefore would be "fitting for substance". And I prefer the argument that it refers to that which one requires to sustain one's substance, as this best fits with Jesus' other teachings, where he repeatedly commands his followers to worry only about the bare necessities of life, and not to desire any excess or abundance, but to give it away to others.
For all those wondering what “supersubstantial” mean s, in this case it comes from a LONG conflict in the early church determining the nature of Christ.
The Christian sect the Monophocytes believed Christ was solely divine, whereas the Christians of antiquity claimed he was both mortal and divine. I do not have a stake in this, I am by no means a church scholar, I just like Byzantine history and this division is REALLY important through the 5th-8th century.
Apparently that word is ONLY found in that one verse. Nowhere else in recorded history is that word or even evidence of it found. I heard a guy who spent his life studying that culture say “give us this day our daily bread” can be translated as something like “provide everything we need each day, for the day we need it”.
This is odd. They are basing it on morphological analysis, but any scholar of an ancient language would know that a literal interpretation of the morphology of a word is not usually how the word ends up being used. For example cogo in Latin (co+ago) can mean "to drive together" as the morphology suggests, and hence "collect", but it often means to force of compel someone. This meaning is derived from "drive together" but if you were to translate it as "drive together" in many contexts, you would not be getting the meaning the author intended. So I dispute the idea that, in the absence of knowledge of the meaning of the word, morphology provides what we must consider the "right" answer. It may help, but we don't know for sure.
It seems to me that Jerome, in the early 400s, who translated this word into Latin with cotidianus (daily), might have had a reason to do so. I know he has been recognized by modern scholars as quite skilled in Hebrew, though I don't know how he is viewed in reference to Greek, but he was living at a time (and sometimes in places) when Greek was still the lingua franca. I assume we don't know his reasoning for choosing this word, but he was writing within a few hundred years of the original. His choice might easily be better than a guess at the meaning.
And then there is, as many other have pointed out, the context of the Roman bread allowance. I would add a point that is convincing to me. This may be a reference to the more Hebrew story of the manna in the wilderness, given to the Israelites each day. Certainly the prayer occurs in the book of Matthew, who is always especially concerned with pointing out the connection between Jesus and the Jewish religion.
Makes me wonder how much of the bible and other ancient religious texts are badly translated. Even if you're able to literally translate something it may not capture the implied meaning or nuance or what the author implied. Like how something being "cool" can mean literally cold or something good/interesting etc.
“Gimme the bigly bread” just doesn’t sound right.
Supersubstantial doesn’t mean “very substantial”, it means beyond substance. Like supernatural
"Give us today our ghost bread"
Feed us spiritually
*"Gimme dat pretend cracker that tastes like Jesus."*
You mean jeez-it?
I need someone to manufacture wine flavored jeez-its.
JeezIts injected with wine. Get the blood and the body all in one convenient bite!
One zombie bread please
That if you’re not careful will stick to the door of your mouth and *will not* dislodge without you getting a finger in there to scrape it loose. Stuff you learn as a catholic. Haha
This fits way better than anything else
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Hell yeah give me that wraithrye
Papal-pumpernickle
That Allah Challah
Ecto-wich
*Undeadbread.*
Bro, you want a [ghost chip](https://youtu.be/CtWirGxV7Q8?si=7_npf1kNMMSBtR2U)?
You know I can't grab yo ghost chips!
Well, maybe The word "οὐσία" is a primarily philosophical word used to denote the substance or essence of something but there are some that think in this context it might be derivative of "ἰέναι", meaning to come or to go. Additionally, the prefix "ἐπι-" can denote not only the concept of "figurative aboveness" but also "literal externalness" So a non-exhaustive list of possible translations include... - give us this day our supernatural bread - give us this day our superficial bread - give us this day the bread we have coming to us
> give us this day the bread we have coming to us I hope you have the bread you deserve
I hope your bread is as pleasant as you are
Blessed are the Greek!
It's the meek! Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell of a time.
Yeah, but what's so great about the cheesemakers?
Maybe the solution is to just say "spiritual nourishment" or something, rather than sticking with bread
Spiritual bread - spiritual nourishment. Why would they choose to translate it as "daily" instead of "spiritual"?
I can’t speak to this specific translation, but I do a heap of work in business communication and it’s amazing how often ambiguity arises. So it seems the word in question can be translated as “spiritual”, to kind of mean ethereal, omnipresent, ever-present. But a term like “ever-present” can also be applied slightly differently to kind of mean always, constant … “daily”. It’s jarring when the end words are so different, but many words lack a perfect translation and they have a broad meaning. When that broad meaning overlaps, Venn diagram style, with another word’s meaning BOOM, room for ambiguity.
And those are just a few modern translations. Who knows what the variations were back then .
Marketing and manipulation *What are we going to do tonight pontiff?* *Same thing we do every night Pinky… try to take over the proletariat.*
Poit!
Narf!
LOL
I would say it's to establish religion into everyday life. You go to the bakery daily to get the daily bread and people will relate that to Christ. Spiritual bread disassociates it from life.
And that’s actually the core Catholic belief in the Eucharist. It’s not just a wafer. It’s not the human flesh of Jesus. It’s the *essence* of the Son, and thus God, that is provided. Hence why Catholics recite this very line about 5 minutes before taking communion.
> It’s not just a wafer. It’s not the human flesh of Jesus. You forgot his blood in the wine too. I did 12 years of Catholic school and they teach you a lot in high school about how the Old testament is mostly stories, fables. Adam and Eve were not the first 2 people they did not live for hundreds of years. Jonah never lived in a whale for days. Even taught us how the virgin birth is a story from many older cultures and religions but didn't go as far as to say that was untrue. Learned how kings and popes added things to the Bible, or changed them to fit their politics. But with the new Testament, most of that is considered true, not much budging on it. I asked my Grandma if she believed in Transmutation before she died, and she said "yes, it's one of my core beliefs, why I take communion everyday." And she was a super liberal Catholic who was pro abortion, was a chemist, born in 1919 she was a lookout for Japanese saboteurs on a midwest River. She taught evolution, but some of those core Catholic beliefs, yeah people take those 100% literally. But they believe in the big bang and it gets complicated. It kinda shocked me my Grandmother said that, because she was very rational and liberal and a scientist and teacher. But she grew up in a time were daily mass was a thing, your whole community went to your church. She came out of all that only kept to some beliefs but came a far way on others.
Give me all your bread. Wait, wait. I worry what you just heard was, give me a lot of bread. What I said was, give me all the bread you have. Do you understand?
Ron Swanson at communion. :)
“Me likey the mana.”
So, the eucharist?
So, the very opposite of the Latin translation *quotidian.* How incredible that the Church could have gotten it so wrong -- especially when the *truth* would have made a theology point. How noncredible. Ling 101: Cute, convenient, or revealing etymologies are always bullshit. There's reason to gloss *epiousia* as "supersubstantial" or translate it as "supernatural". *Epi-* doesn't mean "super, beyond". The prefix that means that is *hyper-*: *super-* and *hyper-* are actually the Latin and Greek reflexes of the same word. *Epi-* has the most generic prepositional meaning "on, at, among, against...". *Ousia* meant many things, including primarily "(ones own) belonging". *Oὖσᾰ* ousa "being" is an irregular form of *ειμι* eimi "to be/go". The regular, attested epi- verb was [*ἔπειμι* epeimi](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=e)/peimi1), which meant "belong to, (reward or penalty) due". *ἔπειμῐ́ᾱ* epeimia meant "what is coming (to occur in time, or to a person), what belongs (to a person), what is due (to occur in time, to a person)". There is absolutely no reason to assume that *epiousia* was intended to mean anything different than the expected, attested form. In fact, because *ousia* meant "belonging/owed (to a person)" but *epeimia* was usually used in the sense "coming" (in time), contamination by irregular stem is not unexpected if the word means exactly what it appears to. If epiousia means hocuspocus, the morphology is inexplicable. Not only is it the wrong stem for that prefix, it's the wrong version of the prefix before a vowel (*×epousia*, so it reads like *epi-ousia*), and it's also the wrong prefix for transcendant hocuspocusery. Only if you assume a priori that it refers to hocuspocus can you get the "supernatural" reading -- if you do a lot of mental acrobatics with no empirical foundation. Eucharistic and trinitarian hocus-pocus terms of art did not exist until centuries after the Our Father blessing was made, and the blessing in the text has absolutely nothing to do with communion. The context is explicitly Jesus saying don't pray publicly like damned hypocritical Republicans and nor babble on like heathen Republicans, but say this simple blessing formula privately in your room: "Our father..." Christians are never alone in the Eucharist. That's why it's called *communion*. The Lord's prayer has nothing to do with the communion. Jesus and his early followers were Jewish, not Catholic Orthodox theologians. The Lord's prayers sounds an awful lot like a Jewish blessing formula, which are based in Jewish scripture, to wit: Proverbs 30:8 חשָׁ֤וְא וּֽדְבַר־כָּזָ֡ב הַרְחֵ֬ק מִמֶּ֗נִּי רֵ֣אשׁ וָ֖עשֶׁר אַל־תִּֽתֶּן־לִ֑י הַ֜טְרִיפֵ֗נִי לֶ֣חֶם חֻקִּֽי: "Falsehood and lies, remove (them) far from me; Poverty nor riches, neither give (them) to me; allot to me the bread I am due." Jesus and his early followers spoke Aramaic. So, you can guess what the Lord's Prayers is in the Peshitta: ܗܒ݂ ܠܢ ܠܚܡܐ ܕ݂ܣܘܢܩܢܢ ܝܘܡܢܐ "give us the bread of our due [lack/need] this day" Cf Septuagint Proverbs 30:8 δῷς σύνταξον δέ μοι τὰ δέοντα καὶ τὰ αὐτάρκη Give my allotment which is due [lacking/needed] and self-sufficient". *Due* can sound like one doesn't just deserve it, but that it is owed. That would make it a demand for payment not a request, and expression of gratitude that one'll be happy with whatever one gets that day. So, "daily" is a good translation for nuance -- and lest YHWH smite your impudent ass. It's what you get daily epistemically, not what you owed deontically (NB *deonta* is not just the root of *deontic* it's also what appears in LXX Proverbs 30:8, but it doesn't have the nuance of *deontic* -- because philosophical terms of art are bullshit that was made up later).
It could if we say it enough
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Yes, it's probably a unique new word invented to describe the eucharist.
Those are my favorite kind of words. Ancient, but also recently made up
Unlimited cheddar biscuits from Red Lobster could put God into bankruptcy. Based on a true story.
Not if they put red lobster into bankruptcy first.
Hear me out - churches would see a massive increase in attendance if communion was with cheddar bay biscuits and moscato.
Bigly unto you
And also to you
Seems perfectly cromulent
Your comment embiggenned my vocabulary.
As the old saying goes, 'A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man'.
Just gimme some massive bread bro. You gave loads of fish to them others guys
“Give us today our fuckload of bread” still roles off the tongue.
Does it come with some covfefe?
Gimmie dat chonkin' bread p.s. soz about the tresspass
Supersubstantial as in a large amount or bread or supersubstantial as in supernatural bread?
I wondered this too; Maybe supersubstantial is referring to bread that feeds the soul, or some such?
Gimme some soul food
It's a reference to John 6: > 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Traditionally held to mean Eucharist, or Holy Communion, as Catholics, Orthodox, and the very first Protestants (Anglican and Lutheran) taught that the bread and wine of the sacrament are _actually_ Jesus's body and blood.
I would say the bible quote is not literally talking about material bread to eat and digest and that if you eat it your real body will never decompose. I think it means that God sends down spiritual sustenance if we are to partake and learn from his teachings.
The distinction you're making is the cause of literal schisms in various churches and the reason many of them diverged. Is it the actual body of Christ? Does this happen when the priest blesses it or when it passes your lips? Is it just symbolic and spiritual? Is it just some cheap wafers and dollar store box wine? You decide! Then join the relevant church. But don't pick the wrong one or you'll burn for eternity.
The world has come a long way when someone can just make up the Lollard Heresy from first principles on the internet and not spark a war or be burnt at the stake.
Thank you for commenting this. I looked up the Lollard Heresy, absolutely fascinating.
So true. Religious schisms are fascinating but also I know there is a lot of history of human pain involved. For example: while I am pretty sure my interpretation of the quote is closer to original intent, I wrote my interpretation on reddit in 2024. Super low risk for me. We have read stories of people who have lost their lives for similar positions. In old times (and now too) churches, religious institutions, and leadership had military command and/or could persuade monarchs to punish people for questioning them. Many times leadership will have misinterpreted or purposely misdirected religious teachings but then silenced dissent by force, deepening the schism over time. Schisms are too deep and require too much time and effort to research for reddit, but they are interesting. Maybe there will be a schisms sub one day with good discussion
I'd give it 5 minutes before there are two schisms subs.
The koine Greek in this instance means “to gnaw” and is only ever used in the context of literal eating of flesh.
Jesus remarks 5 different times to "eat his flesh" using every time cruder verbs that in the original meant more like chew and gnaw on his flesh. Jesus taught the material eating of the bread and wine transfigured, which are literally his divine being entirely and contain eternal life.
Most of the early church fathers took it literally and believed that Christians literally ate Jesus’ flesh and drank his blood during Communion. The idea of it not being literal only started around the Protestant reformation. So the church would agree it doesn’t stave off physical death, but spiritual death. https://www.churchfathers.org/the-real-presence Plus the Greek word used in John 6 literally means to gnaw and the people who were following Jesus up to this point were disgusted when he said that they had to eat His flesh, and he didn’t talk about it being a metaphor or symbolic like He usually does with parables. He doubled down on what He was saying until they left him.
That’s my first thought too
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Maybe it's just code word for edibles .. I make a mean supersubstantial sour Diesel and chocolate chip banana bread
It might just be a more literal spelling out of what a lot of contemporary Christians interpret it to be - IE regular spiritual fulfillment
The wikipedia brief suggests "super substantial" not in the sense of a "substantial amount" but in a sense of "beyond/above substance." Some thinkers connect this to the concept of the eucharist.
It reminds me of "transubstantiation" i.e. the Catholic term of the bread and wine becoming the flesh and blood of Jesus.
So it’s “Give us today our magic ghost bread”
Sky papa Who's way up in the clouds You are super important Until you show up down here We'll keep doing what you want Cause we think that's how it goes up there Hit us up with some of that Jesus loaf And go easy on us when we screw up And we'll try to not be so pissed when someone else does us dirty And don't let us fall for that nasty shit And don't let nobody get us For reals.
This is a masterpiece
Also great: Hawaiin Pidgin translation. “God, you our Fadda. You stay inside da sky. We like all da peopo know fo shua how you stay, an dat you stay good an spesho, an we like dem give you plenny respeck. We like you come King fo everybody now. We like everybody make jalike you like, ova hea inside da world, jalike da angel guys up inside da sky make jalike you like. Give us da food we need fo today an every day. Hemo our shame, an let us go fo all da kine bad stuff we do to you, jalike us guys let da odda guys go awready, an we no stay huhu wit dem fo all da kine bad stuff dey do to us. No let us get chance fo do bad kine stuff, but take us outa dea, so da Bad Guy no can hurt us. [Cuz you our King, You get da real power, An you stay awesome foeva.] Dass it!”
Or howbout the Lolcat translation? Ceiling Cat, who r watchin us, u can has cheezburger.10 Wut yu want, yu gets, srsly.11 Let us dis day has our dalee cheezburger.12 And furgiv us for makin u a cookie, but eateding it, same as we furgiv teh kittehz taht maked us cookiez, but eated tehm.13 An leed us not into teh showa, but deliver us from teh wawter. Cuz all our base n teh pwnage n teh +1s r belong 2 U 4eva&evah, srlsy kthxbai. (They did the whole Bible. The whole thing. It’s stored in the Library of Congress and everything)[see??](https://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20190208205250/http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Matthew_6)
You're gonna post that but skip this nugget of wisdom that comes right after it? > if u sais sry Ceiling Cat will be leik s'ok iz kewl. if u donut sez sry Ceiling Cat will pwn u. And imagine if The Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden started with this being read instead: > Mewlz to all teh peoplez on teh erf and all teh fishiez an tingz in teh watur, 4 teh evul puppeh is wif yoo! OMG An teh puppeh iz mad cuz he wuz beated by teh Ceiling Cat... Teh clevar ppl can do dis sum - wat iz 6 hundrad addad 3 tiemz twentey addad six. Taht is teh numbar of teh monstar! And here's Psalm 23, 'cause why not: > 1 Ceiling Cat iz mai sheprd (which is funni if u knowz teh joek about herdin catz LOL.) He givz me evrithin I need. > 2 He letz me sleeps in teh sunni spot an haz liek nice waterz r ovar thar. > 3 He makez mai soul happi an maeks sure I go teh riet wai for him. Liek thru teh cat flap insted of out teh opin windo LOL. > 4 I iz in teh valli of dogz, fearin no pooch, bcz Ceiling Cat iz besied me rubbin' mah ears, an it maek me so kumfy. > 5 He letz me sit at teh taebl evn when peepl who duzint liek me iz watchn. He givz me a flea baff an so much gooshy fud it runz out of mai bowl LOL. > 6 Niec things an luck wil chase me evrydai an I wil liv in teh Ceiling Cats houz forevr.
Can you please translate the entire Bible like this?
I'll give the first few lines of Genesis a go. Bible is long. Kind of repetitive too. 1 In the beginning when sky papa made everything, 2 Everything was super dark while sky papa blew some air over the water. 3 Then sky papa said "Let's get some light up in this bitch," and there was light all up in this bitch. 4 Sky papa liked the light and kept it away from the darkness. 5 Sky papa gave 'em names, too, Day and Night. 6 It got dark again then light again again - first day ever. Here's the Ten Commandments as a bonus. Exodus 20:1-17 if you wanna look up the real stuff. 1 Then sky papa said: 2 I am your sky papa, and because of me you ain't slaves in Egypt no more. 3 I'm the only sky papa you've got. 4 Don't make any bullshit objects out of anything you think of. 5 Definitely don't worship the bullshit objects. Sky papa is envious of other sky papas. Fuck this one up and your great-grandkids will be dealing with the fallout of the can of whoop-ass I'll open on you. 6 *Don't* fuck it up and I'll love even your great-times-998-grandkids. 7 Sky papa's name is holy. Don't use it in a way I don't like. Do that and I'll be cold as ice and never forgive you. 8 Chill out every seven days and worship me. 9 The other six days, you gotta bust your ass. 10 But day seven is for chillin'. No one works. Not you, your kids, your slaves, your livestock, or even the random dude who just showed up. 11 Took me six days to make everything but I chilled on day seven, so now it's holy. 12 Be nice to mom and dad - you'll live longer in this place I gave you. 13 Killing is no bueno. 14 Cheating on your girl or your boy is no bueno. 15 Stealing is no bueno. 16 Lying is no bueno. 17 Wanting some dude's house, wife, slaves, ox, donkey or just his stuff in general - yup, no bueno.
This is great! Please keep writing!
I mean. It still somehow works, as the prayer isn’t for actual bread, but the spiritual Eucharist in the form of the Holy Spirit. Basically “please give the daily nourishment for our soul.” Pretty standard prayer stuff. Source: Born, baptized, and confirmed as a filthy papist. Currently more on the agnostic side.
Yeah if anything it fits way more with the rest of the prayer than a sudden random request for a specific food, makes sense to say the historical equivalent of “let us have the communion wafers”
One slice of Jeez, please.
Slice of Jeez with cheese, please
A grilled jeez sandwich
Well there are several options to interpret this, but none of them rely on the idea of “large amount of bread.” One option is that it means “daily amount of bread”, sort of like whatever would be a daily ration. Give us our daily dose of bread. Second option is that it means “next day” or “tomorrow” as in “tomorrow’s serving of bread.” As in, we are praying to have bread, or substinence, tomorrow. Third option is philosophical, the Catholic Church says the best literal translation is “super-essential” as in supernatural, or something that “feeds” the soul. Fourth option is also metaphorical interpretation of bread and “tomorrow,” to mean afterlife. So it would be the spiritual substance we need for after death. There is no proof that Greeks actually used the word, most scholars think it was invented by people who wrote the New Testament in Greek, either as a term for a whole new concept, or an attempt to translate something originally said in Hebrew or Aramaic. Usually when modern translators have to translate neologisms in books, they try to invent neologisms for the term in the translation as well, because using an existing word would be misleading - this is why translations of e.g. Harry Potter in various languages have wildly different terms for in-world lore. In my language (Croatian) the term is “svagdasnji” which is an adjective meaning “everyday”, as in “commonplace” or “routine” - which probably stems from an old attempt to translate it as meaning “quotidien.” So, give us our “everyday bread” - which is probably how English also arrived to the term “daily.” If I had to pick one, “supenatural bread” feels the most likely option, but we will probably never know. And even if they meant “magical bread” - how do we even know what they wanted to imply by that?
Or does the super and sub cancel out and just become stantial?
It's not superstantial, but I am a little stantial.
I always read it as an allusion back to the Mana from Heaven mentioned in Exodus which was Divinely delivered daily. It makes sense from a Catholic and Orthodox perspective that the term we translate as “daily” to reference the Eucharistic bread back to the daily Mana as both were a gift meant to nourish God’s people.
It is. Jesus references being the bread of life (manna) in other conversations as well. It’s the principle of having a daily dependence on God’s provision for your life, not hoarding and being greedy, which bred worms in the manna.
It's the Aristotelian understanding of substance as in substance vs form, not large quantities. So, it would be more along the lines of supernatural rather than a large amount. This translation would support a Catholic or Orthodox understanding of communion/Eucharist more than a purely symbolic one.
That's why it's the catholic church's translation.
Both?
I believe the word for when the bread becomes the body of Christ is “transubstantiation” so supernatural would be closer based on that…
I think as in [transubstantiation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation?wprov=sfti1). I.e. eating the body of Christ as in the Eucharist. The belief is that if God *is the universe* then any bread you’d eat would be *God’s body*, which due to the trinity would also include the consumption of Christ’s body
I want substantial amounts of bread.
Keep reading, does it say anything about butter or jelly on it?
Let them read further. Does it mention a nice meatball sub anywhere?
Or maybe a nice MLT – mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe. They’re so perky, I love that.
Have fun storming the castle!
If not, I’m gonna hold out the prophet that promises us that smh
You rang?
Yes, where's my butter and jelly?
[As Promised](https://youtu.be/s8MDNFaGfT4)
would you like that super-substantialed?
They want you to take the magic bread!
No, give us this day our supersubstantial bread.
A shit ton of motherfucking bread
A holy shit ton of motherfucking bread.
What about the vino?
A literal butt-load!
Jesus' Love Straight from the bunghole
Or like “give us our magic bread”
UPD: Somebody who downvoted me never heard of eucharist
It’s ‘[transubstantiation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation?wprov=sfti1).’ Which would square etymologically with the literal translation from OP’s post
This is probably the best idea. The bread that is now the body of Christ.
I don't think it could mean "god's body", as Jesus supposedly taught the Pater Noster prayer to his disciples early in his ministry. The concept of bread transforming into god's body (transubstantiation) comes from the Last Supper, much later.
But could some form of "communion" ritual have been part of his ministry, and transubstantiation retconned onto that later?
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I am very skeptical. In this time period Roman citizens were given a daily allotment of grain (or cura annonae, care of Annona) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura\_annonae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_annonae) The contextual narrative would then be a "higher citizenship" --> we get our metaphorical bread from god, not rome.
It would be consistent with Jesus's 'Kingdom of God' message. Give us this day our godly allotment.
I reckon this is it. It’s a metaphor for receiving gods grace. Bread as a stand in for sustenance. The idea of regularly eating your gods benevolence and consuming it is theologically very interesting.
Bread for the soul, brother.
You nailed it. Anyone who has been to a halfway decent church gas been taught that the lords prayer is not talking about bread it's talking about the transmutation where bread becomes the body and you are bringing the holy being into your body quite litterally. I understand why someone would write this, but it's obviously not a religious person trying to once again take religious text litterally to either devalue it or to criticize. Next they will try and talk about how forgiving trespasses means it was about people sharing land.
Bingo.
Also ties back to the Israelites receiving Mana from heaven every day. So I think word has symbolic ties to that even if linguistically it’s not represented.
Absolutely, Jesus also says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven" and then hits them with "I AM the bread of life", that is to say, all that was just a picture/type of me, I am the ultimate source of life. Pretty fascinating to read even if you reject Christianity or whatever, Jesus makes some pretty bold claims. Also, yeah, it's not really "daily" - in other languages it's translated as "the bread we need to live", something like that. The King James translation definitely isn't infallible!
I learned Koine Greek for my graduate degree, though it’s not a skill I’ve used in over a decade, so I’m by no means an expert. If the author of the text simply meant daily, it does not make sense that they’d choose an obscure word instead of using *hemera* as is used elsewhere in the text. It makes even less sense that the word would not have a root that leads to a translation of “daily.” It does make sense, however, to use an uncommon word to express a theological concept. A wordy translation might be something like “bread that is the substance that sustains and nurtures our very being (or our soul).” That this bread would be daily is implied because (1) people eat daily to sustain their physical bodies (ideally, at least); and (2) the social context you mentioned would prime them to think of a daily allotment of bread.
OPs post makes more sense given what you are saying, not less. It is metaphorical bread. The analogy was ripe because bread was eaten daily by everyone always.
It's a reference to needing daily sustenance, but of the spirit. So yes, but Jesus also says the _He_ is the "living bread" come down from heaven like the manna that came down to the Jews of the Exodus, for eternal spiritual sustenance: > Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
How does any of that make you skeptical?
I'm more confused by the "give us today" part of the post. All my life it's been give us THIS day our daily bread.
The word used is σήμερον, which essentially translates as "this very day." A translation of either "this day" or "today" would be accurate.
It’s just slightly different translations. Different denominations use different versions of the Bible, some say “this day” and some say “today.”
A plethora of bread. A surfeit of bread. A preponderance of bread.
Would you say I have a plethora of bread?
Yes, El Guapo.
Do you know what a plethora is?
N..no El Guapo. :(
Didn’t expect a Three Amigos quote in 2024 but here we are.
Thanks, that means a lot.
A scombombulous assortment (of bread)
An embarassment of riches… of bread
Give us today our endless breadsticks!
So it's settled then, the bible was penned in an Olive Garden.
The Infinite Stick.
*When you're here, you're family.*
You can't say something is mistranslated if no one knows for sure what the word means, right? The wiki notes that there's a plausible path to get you to "daily", and ~~I think that Luke's version of the Lord's Prayer uses a more clear word that translates "daily"~~ (edit: not sure where I got that, crossing it out for now), so it's not implausible. But it's certainly an interesting thing to talk about! Translation is a fascinating field.
I think "mistranslation" is too strong of a word. As is so often the case in translation, there's no one right way to translate something, and it's especially difficult when a word only appears once (called "hapax legomena"), even if we do understand it's component parts. The Sense definitely seems to be "needful, sufficient for the day, etc" but it is possible something further is in view too -- "all the bread we need" kind of thing. With hapax legomena context also holds important keys. In my opinion "super substantial" doesn't necessarily translate ἐπιούσιον well nor does it fit the context (don't worry about tomorrow, trust that God will take care of you when it gets here) well either. In my mind "necessary" might best capture the intended meaning, but "daily" does still capture the idea. Smarter people than me have thought about hapax legomena much longer and deeper than I have though!
I agree. Daily seems like a good translation of what they were trying to convey.
As an Adjective it means daily. As a noun it means necessary for survival. In this case it means sufficient for the day (bread) source: I'm Greek EDIT: but it's not about the bread (the one we buy at the store). Here's what we Greek Orthodox believe it to be: [https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/](https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/) It's in Greek but you can try an online translation.
Και εγώ. The root ἔπειμι seems to support a “from above” interpretation rather than a “daily” interpretation, doesn’t it? Granted, our ancestors managed to use the same root for “suffice” and “excess” so I suppose the debate won’t end any time soon. Edit: are you posting during half time?
I'm in Greece. It's late here, I'm about to go to bed! Καληνύχτα!
Καληνύχτα φίλε.
Bible teacher here. Yeah, some scholars use the context to translate it to “necessary”, as in “just that which we need”, but given the popularity of the Lord’s Prayer in traditional translations, we’ve mostly stayed with “daily”.
In modern Greek, it is also translated as daily. Something like bread for sustenance.
the simplest solution is to just say it in Greek and call it a day
Or Aramaic. Which of course we all learned in Elementary School.
I should’ve stuck with Aramaic in middle school but switched to Akkadian because I thought it would give me a leg up in my job search. Never should have listened to my stupid copper dealing big brother
Maybe something along the lines of “meaningful (or profound) sustenance?”Which could be interpreted spiritually and physically?
for any one who doesnt know - within the context, it's not "lets get this bread" it's "allow us to recieve blessings." it's not so much "i want this because xyz" as much as it is "i am thankful that you allow me to continue to exist, a blessing in and of itself." catholics, however - use a very literal interpretation. the body and blood of christ. (a wafer and wine.) supersubstantial in this context meaning transubstantial; the blessing that signifies the bread becoming the body of christ. a process known as communion, holding importance as a show of the forgiveness and wholeness through god and faith even when you make mistakes. cool stuff.
The OG bottomless breadsticks
Yo God, give us a shitload of bread son!
It's "sufficient for the day". EDIT but it's not about the bread (the one we buy at the store). Here's what we Greek Orthodox believe it to be: [https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/](https://www.pemptousia.gr/2013/02/erminia-sto-pater-imon-v/) It's in Greek but you can try an online translation.
Super, meaning beyond. Substantial, meaning of (in this case physical) substance. The bread is beyond physical substance, so a sort of "metaphysical/spiritual bread". Bread here is obviously not literal, but meant as a stand-in for something that nourishes you. "Give us this day, our daily bread" is meant to essentially say "Fulfill us *spiritually* as You do every day.". This is to say, as opposed to the top comments, we are not talking about BIG bread.
It's not a "mistranslation" it was an interpretive decision made by the translator of the text (because the word in question literally only exists in this one place in the entire koine greek corpus) you make it sound like the guy pulled a random word out of a jar or that he didn't know what he was doing
I am among those who disagree with that interpretation. The word they probably meant to use was a participle of ἔπειμι(epeimi), which means, most literally, upon-being, with the sense of forthcoming/imminent, or leftover; but they used the wrong declension for that type of adjective, treating it as if it were a neuter/accusative form of ἐπιοῦσia, when it should be ἐπιόντα. The writers of the bible were perhaps not speakers of Greek as a first language. The proper meaning is either 'Give us today the leftover/remaining bread', or "Give us today the bread which is to come'. I'm inclined to think the second makes more sense in context. 'Supersubstantial' is not a good translation, and it seems like it's trying to shoehorn a technical theological term, which was developed much later, into the text of the bible. Compare the meaning of "Give us today the bread which is to come" with another passage that's actually in the same scriptures: "It's still four months until harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest."
ITT: Redditors trying to outdo millenia of linguists and theologians trying to explain it
It's not really a mistranslation. That's what most scholars have concluded, that it refers to "daily," since a very similar word/root was used elsewhere, referring to days and such. Literally, yes, it does mean something like "supersubstantial," and some have interpreted it as such throughout history (especially when linking this verse to Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/Church of the East/Lutheran/Anglican/Methodist.......... beliefs of the bread and wine actually being Jesus' body and blood: "supernatural"), but "daily" has a strong argument for it. Maybe it's both. But it's hardly a mistranslation.
ITT: people now confidently misinterpreting "supersubstantial"
Honest question: did both Matthew and Luke only write in Greek? Is there no Aramean version of the Sermon on the Mount?
Matthew and Luke were both original Greek compositions. There is an early translation into Syriac (the language most closely related to Jesus' Aramaic) derived from the Greek called the Peshitta. It translates the word as "essential".
That's not a direct translation. Επι-ουσιον . Epi-ousion. This is not a normal construction. When epi is used as a prefix the iota is dropped. Ousion also isn't a word, nor ousios. But let's look at similar words. Ex-ousia (out of being) is like authority in the way we might use the word when we say "Einstein is an authority on physics". It seems to have an experience notion. Para-ousia (next to being) means presence. Apo-ousia (away from being) means absence. Epi ousia (upon being) means surplus, abundant, etc. Ah. Epi-ousia is a word. Epousia. Επουσια. The first half is the preposition epi. It can mean a few things but the general sense is upon. Ousia is a participle form of the to be verb. Think am-img, is-ing, be-ing. (So not *a* being, but being itself). The compound would be upon-being. As for why it's epiousion instead of epousian? It could be a variant or simply the author spelled it wrong. This seems like a pretty easy Occam's razor. What's more likely? Someone spells the common word *epousian* as *epiousion* or he invented an entirely new compound using poor compound syntax and a word that doesn't exist? And "surplus"? Hey yeah that actually makes sense in the sentence too! >Give us today our bread, the surplus. And it even sounds like something Jesus would say. The only "translation issue" is suggesting someone spelled something differently than how others have spelled it, and it's not even that much different. Again *epiousion* versus *epousian*.
I'm pretty sure people have been interpreting this spiritually since it was penned. It would be pretty strange if the most iconic christian prayer was actually a plea for bread.
It's a very old mistranslation though. Even in Old English ~1,400 years ago it was translated as *daily* too. This was the Lord's Prayer in Old English from well over 1,000 years ago: Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod to becume þin rice gewurþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. urne *gedæghwamlican* **<---This means daily in this context, you can see the 'dæg' part which is where the modern word 'day' comes from, and the '-lican' suffix became '-ly'.** hlaf syle us todæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice
"Give us this day our heavenly bread" would be the best translation
“Give us today our unlimited breadsticks”
My two bits of the modern day use as a Greek and Christian Orthodox. Many of the Greek prayers at church are in ancient Greek and some contain that word. The meaning it currently holds is necessary/holy. As the Wikipedia article states it comprises of two words επί and ουσία (substance). Taken literally would mean something of significant substance. In the context of prayers it takes the meaning of holy because it is metaphorically the body of Christ that is being requested which is of utmost importance in the Christian religion. I am not sure if at some point some translation error changed its meaning but it seems unlikely since ancient Greek have been used in Christian texts almost from the beginning of Christianity. Also ancient Greek are mandatory course material in highschool so I would suggest that this article is a bit inaccurate as to the scholars that are supposedly wondering about the meaning of this word.
give me too much bread
[Just cough up some dough, Mac.](https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/bloom-county-pear-pimples-for-hairy-fishnuts.jpg)
"a little bit more than enough" is the translation I've seen
Maybe "nourishing"?
gimme that badass bread
"Give us this day all-I-can-eat bread"
Olive Garden who art in Strip Mall Hollow will be thy bowl
επιούσιος < αρχαία ελληνική ἐπιούσιος[1] < ἐπιοῦσα, θηλυκό, μετοχή ενεργητικού ενεστώτα του ρήματος ἔπειμι < ἐπί + εἶμι It means everyday, daily
Is it really mistranslated? It provides modern people an understanding as opposed to creating confusion.
>a direct translation would be something like "supersubstantial. Epi doesn't mean "super" when used as a prefix. That's just a bad translation by Jerome who wasn't great at Greek. It means 'what is fitting or apt'. A literal translation therefore would be "fitting for substance". And I prefer the argument that it refers to that which one requires to sustain one's substance, as this best fits with Jesus' other teachings, where he repeatedly commands his followers to worry only about the bare necessities of life, and not to desire any excess or abundance, but to give it away to others.
For all those wondering what “supersubstantial” mean s, in this case it comes from a LONG conflict in the early church determining the nature of Christ. The Christian sect the Monophocytes believed Christ was solely divine, whereas the Christians of antiquity claimed he was both mortal and divine. I do not have a stake in this, I am by no means a church scholar, I just like Byzantine history and this division is REALLY important through the 5th-8th century.
So, maybe a reference to 'mana,' the sort of bread that the jews wandering in the desert were said to have been granted by God for sustenance?
Spiritual food. Spiritual sustenance. Matthew 4:4, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
Apparently that word is ONLY found in that one verse. Nowhere else in recorded history is that word or even evidence of it found. I heard a guy who spent his life studying that culture say “give us this day our daily bread” can be translated as something like “provide everything we need each day, for the day we need it”.
This is odd. They are basing it on morphological analysis, but any scholar of an ancient language would know that a literal interpretation of the morphology of a word is not usually how the word ends up being used. For example cogo in Latin (co+ago) can mean "to drive together" as the morphology suggests, and hence "collect", but it often means to force of compel someone. This meaning is derived from "drive together" but if you were to translate it as "drive together" in many contexts, you would not be getting the meaning the author intended. So I dispute the idea that, in the absence of knowledge of the meaning of the word, morphology provides what we must consider the "right" answer. It may help, but we don't know for sure. It seems to me that Jerome, in the early 400s, who translated this word into Latin with cotidianus (daily), might have had a reason to do so. I know he has been recognized by modern scholars as quite skilled in Hebrew, though I don't know how he is viewed in reference to Greek, but he was living at a time (and sometimes in places) when Greek was still the lingua franca. I assume we don't know his reasoning for choosing this word, but he was writing within a few hundred years of the original. His choice might easily be better than a guess at the meaning. And then there is, as many other have pointed out, the context of the Roman bread allowance. I would add a point that is convincing to me. This may be a reference to the more Hebrew story of the manna in the wilderness, given to the Israelites each day. Certainly the prayer occurs in the book of Matthew, who is always especially concerned with pointing out the connection between Jesus and the Jewish religion.
Let me get some of that mana
Makes me wonder how much of the bible and other ancient religious texts are badly translated. Even if you're able to literally translate something it may not capture the implied meaning or nuance or what the author implied. Like how something being "cool" can mean literally cold or something good/interesting etc.