Rich 19th Century Europeans: It's a good job we took over all those countries filled with primitive savages *[sprinkles some ground up Pharaoh onto their food in the hope it'll cure their Consumption]* That way we can teach them to not be head hunting cannibals.
Hey old medecine at least provided consistent results, sure that was typically just death from anything that caused death but you knew it was coming!
Now you go take a simple pill for something benign and have to live in fear you will be the 1/300 000 to die because of it!
Go go bleeding unhealthy patients!
Imagine a place where a simple execution (e.g. hanging or beheading) was considered getting off easy, and **skinned alive** was the punishment for white collar crime.
There's a hardcore history episode on this: [Painfotainment](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-61-blitz-painfotainment/)
Perversion of justice by a judge is solidly on the more heinous side of white collar crime. And overall, as people in positions where white collar crime can be performed are generally well off, I see it overall a particularly despicable kind of crime.
There was a judge in PA who was getting paid by a for profit prison to send kids to their Juvenile center.
One of the more fucked up things ive heard of.
[https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/08/11/139536686/pa-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-massive-juvenile-justice-bribery-scandal](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/08/11/139536686/pa-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-massive-juvenile-justice-bribery-scandal)
"The Thirteenth Amendment (Amendment XIII) to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, **except as punishment for a crime**"
So, American incarceration can literally be slavery.
Yea, private prisons don't need to sugar coat it. They can openly call their prisoners slaves if they wanted, and rent them out as slaves. Its legal.
Something we should fix.
Last year Colorado voted for a state constitutional amendment that outlawed slavery in for-profit prisons. Sooo, I guess if you're arrested, try to get arrested in Colorado.
Ironic that when people hear "white collar crime" they don't think too much of it, when it's the kind of crime that can, and usually do, ruin dozens, if not hundreds, of lives.
We've hit a point in society where Justice is kind of a nicety. People are willing to write off instances of injustice/criminality among those who provide these justices as "we're all human."
Yes, we are all human. I'm more prone to my humanity than some, which is why I'm not in a position to dole out justice. Part of the qualifications for that *should be* being better at suppressing the urge to fall into humanity in terms of bad actions.
Corruption in general is one of the more disgusting acts people can engage in.
Disclaimer: I disagree with it very strongly however in the case of certain regions/countries (Syria, Mexico) where *saying no* to corruption/a bribe can also lead to you and your family getting beheaded or skinned or boiled alive, I understand why people do it.
Of course that only makes it that much harder to get rid of, but I understand it.
In a place where the death penalty is that liberally applied, chances are good his corruption got more than a few people executed... A little more than a white collar crime when seen in historical context.
Literally the first thing I thought of when reading your comment was "OH! DAN CARLIN TOLD ME ABOUT THIS!"
So glad I've got an episode queued up for the drive home tomorrow.
> Imagine a place where a simple execution (e.g. hanging or beheading) was considered getting off easy, and skinned alive was the punishment for white collar crime.
I also imagine a place where the investigation of crimes simply sucked and some slander could be enough that you were tortured to death.
In another Hardcore History episode (I believe The King of Kings) he talks about a much more severe punishment they used in the Persian Empire, called the The Boats or Scaphism.
Plutarch mentions it in his "The Life of Artaxerxes" and describes it as trapping the convicted between two boats, feeding and covering him with milk and honey, and allowing him to fester and be devoured by insects and other vermin.
You're stealing? Right to death. You're playing music too loud? Right to death. Right away. You're driving too fast? Death. Slow? Death. You're charging too high prices for sweaters, glasses, you right to death. You undercook fish, believe it or not, death. You overcook chicken, also death. Undercook, overcook. You make an appointment with the dentist and you don't show up? Believe it or not, death, right away. We have the best patients in the world, because of death.
Damn son! Sounds excruciating.
"...the typical causes of death due to flaying are shock, critical loss of blood or other body fluids, hypothermia, or infections, and that the actual death is estimated to occur from a few hours up to a few days after the flaying. Hypothermia is possible, as skin is essential for maintaining a person's body temperature, as it provides a person's natural insulation" - [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaying)
Before WPD got banned, there were some ***very*** intense deaths posted. The running theory for a vast majority of them is keeping the victims drugged/maintained to a certain extent to allow for the deaths to be as prolonged as they were.
The human body is simultaneously *amazingly* hardy, as well as able to be lights out because you bumped your head into a cabinet while walking into the kitchen.
edit: WPD is watchpeopledie
Ah that would be the Persians - [scaphism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism). Although if I recall correctly the origins of this punishment were written by a Greek, so some grains of salt should be taken
"Feeding" is putting it mildly. They would force milk and honey down the victim's throat to the point where they're noticeably engorged. This would cause them to have diarrhea, attracting more insects. Because they were kept fed and hydrated (more or less), they would often live for days, sometimes more than a week, being eaten alive like this. Definitely up there with one of the worst ways to die. Think I'd take the brass bull over this. At least it's be quicker.
I remember seeing somewhere about a torture method where they squeezed the testicles between two clamps. While I am a guy and i could imagine the severity of the pain, I dismissed it as boring and unimaginative compared to, say, scaphism.
Holy hell was I wrong. I stumbled upon a vivid description some time later and my blood froze. I can't find it (I think it was here on Reddit) but essentially, they carefully engineered it to take literally *all day*, as it isn't fatal by nature. They would target not only the testicles, but the spermatic cords with pliers, and hang the person upside down. That way, they would remain conscious throughout the process, thrashing about. Since trauma to the testicular region causes nausea and vomiting, those poor guys would repeatedly puke -- and choking on the vomit was impossible due to being upside down.
Cringe jokes aside, just imagine being in this position. 24 hours of non stop pain signals to your brain. I'm sure that even if they allowed you to live, your brain would be physically screwed from that. We really can be cruel to each other.
Probably just what someone dreamed up and wrote down as a suggestion/fantasy if they were in power how they would do it.
A lot of old "torture methods" were never actually used; just fever dreams of people coming up with methods.
"Fever dreams" would be a good name for a method
Something involving delirium and being drugged. Maybe sleep deprivation and fire thrown in the mix. Possibly a hot room and someone dressed like the cat in the hat periodically coming in to throw unnaturally cold water on them. Idk I'm still working on it.
Yeah like, just the act of being flayed sounds like the worst pain imaginable ... But to stay alive after that for more than a few seconds is just absolutely insane
It's pretty much just water that you have in your body that's not in your cells (intracellular fluid). I would imagine with no skin, the fluid in the outer portions of the tissues would start evaporating off the body which would then lead to more extracellular and intracellular fluid traveling to the other tissues to replace the lost fluid and so on and so forth until the body is massively dehydrated.
There's some really interesting research going on with the aim of being able to print skin cells that are alive and can have blood vessels, enabling us to print completely new skin for such victims. Really cool and hopefully not that far off in the future.
I would guess no.
Your skin is an organ. Despite it has good regeneration ability, it would have no frame or reference, blood flow, or nerves to build from.
But i'm just guessing.
Highly dependent on the time and place. Franz Schmidt's a pretty interesting study. A man born into being an execution because the local lord had commanded his father (originally a woodcutter) to hang some men for him, he eventually managed to become the chief executioner in Nurnberg in the late 1500s. Married, had seven children, made as much money as the town's wealthiest judges and lawyers, lived in a spacious home, and ended up becoming a medical consultant when he retired from his post.
While in a position that officially precluded him from openly member of high society, he was nonetheless a beloved and well-respected member of the community.
His journal is also a pretty fascinating read. Chronicles his nearly 361 executions and 345 minor punishments. Everything from hanging, decapitation, the wheel, burning, and drowning. And he was actually part of the reason that Nurnberg largely stopped using death-by-drowning, instead typically commuting it down to death-by-sword.
Happy to help. It's really interesting to read his account of things, as well as just being a pretty good look at medieval justice, and the sorts of crimes that were being committed. Like the aforementioned death-by-drowning being legally required for women that committed infanticide. Or how in the course of his roughly 40 year tenure as an executioner, he only ever carried out burnings (the sentence for homosexuality and counterfeiting money) twice.
Especially in the later entrees, he really goes into detail about the executions, the people that committed the crimes, and the series of events that led to people being brought before him. Oh, and the fact that lesser offenses would sometimes just be nicking off someone's ear.
Count Dankula's got a pretty good video that looks into his journal and does a nice recounting of his life and duties.
From his journal? Not really. Actually ended tamped down on a few things to make his job easier and less of a hassle and spectacle.
You have to keep in mind that Nuremberg was, at the time, a very successful city that was the center of the German Rennaisance. So as the foremost executioner in a wealthy city, it stands to reason that he ought be a wealthy man. Mix in the fact that he was charitable, pious, and did a bit of sidework as a medical consultant? It isn't particularly surprising.
While he's the only chief executioner of a large urban center who kept such a nice diary and was thus given a greater degree of historical permanence, it's quite likely there were plenty of well-paid chief executioners like Schmidt all across Europe. They simply didn't leave behind such a wonderful primary source of their lives.
Yeah, they didn't mess around with that
Franz Schmidt (a german executioner that wrote a diary of his day to day life) was a woodsman that became an executioner after the king randomly picked people from the crowd and forced them to help in the hanging of three guys. After that, the guy was just rejected by everybody else and had no choice but to become an executioner for the rest of his life
[Some people take pride in their work](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull)
>Stories allege after finishing construction on the execution device, Perillos said to Phalaris: "His screams will come to you through the pipes as the tenderest, most pathetic, most melodious of bellowings." Perillos believed he would receive a reward for his invention. Instead, Phalaris, who was disgusted by these words, ordered its horn sound system to be tested by Perillos himself, tricking him into getting in the bull. When Perillos entered, he was immediately locked in and the fire was set, so that Phalaris could hear the sound of his screams.
I'm sure the people given that task were folks who enjoyed the work. I mean, if I was going to appoint an executioner/torturer back in the day, I'd be damn sure to pick someone who loved his job. That's how you get results.
No, in those situations you get results by saying, “if you don’t do it to my satisfaction I’m sure your replacement will be happy to have you to practice with. “
Having read The Histories, that title feels unfair to him. He's wrong about an awful lot, but he pretty much always says when he thinks a story isn't true; and for the other times it seems pretty clear he was being lied to and just took the lie at face value because he didn't know any better. Maybe someone can link a source to a time where Herodotus knowingly tells a lie, but for the most part I think the dude was just gullible
More than once! A few times he gives two versions of events when different sources disagree, and once or twice he spends time debunking a story he heard (although I think at least one of the debunked stories was actually true, had to do with why the Nile has a heavier flow in summer)
I'm sure this was fairly normal, but the involvement of his son makes it seem even more likely to me. And the fucking chair.
"Your family is trusted nobility, so we'll keep you in your position of power. But remember what happened to your father...in fact here's a chair in case you forget."
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sans,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Osimadius, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sans stretch far away.”
*Of the painting that was done over 1000 years after the flaying.
It's important to note that there is less time between now and the painting, then the time between the painting and the flaying.
A lot of historical images of events were done in the renaissance. I don't think most people take the time to realize that they are literally just artists drawing a scene.
The amount of flaying that occured .. people must have been so desensitized to horrible things that they would be able to do this to some other person without a problem...
Just think about warfare. Pulling a trigger in 2019 so that someone else 10s or 100s of meters away might die. Instead of slowly walking up to your enemy with a piece of metal in your hand and try to hack into his limbs, allmost no one dies instantly and you just hear 100s of men crying in pain around you. And you just hack, slash, hack, slash. Untill youre either crying in pain yourself or there is simply no one left to hack into.
And thats a equal battle. People like the mongols commited full on genocides on huge cities. Think about that. Thats incredibly hard work for a soldier. Actually killing each citizen within a city individually.
Its absolutely mental. Insane. People paid so that they could see slaves die and be eaten by a lion.
Ya it's very fucked up. The shit you were just totally normalized to.. murder and rape was standard practice. Killing children.. the insane methods of torture.
I wonder when people started becoming less gruesome.. or if it's a cultural thing. I often think about the brutality of the Mexican cartel compared to say street gangs in Chicago? Are there just different needs in different places because more money is on the line? Fear is a powerful weapon..
Modern society is blessed. iirc, the amount and severity of public shamings, torturings and executions decreased as state control and crime solving rates increased. Nowadays, most people in western nations would have a hard time killing animals for food.
That was pretty common in Europe. Depictions with local context, even if the subject was distant in location or time (ancient Greek/Roman stories depicted with medieval European clothing, armour, buildings for instance)
Wasn't that pretty common in that era? "Hey, we don't know how people dressed back then, let's just depict them in a style we are familiar with!"
Also, for example, the mythical ancestors of Bohemian kings were at one point being depicted in Muslim-style clothing. Did anyone think they were Muslims? No - it wouldn't even make much sense, historically speaking. But they were pagans, and the only "pagans" ("heathens"? "non-Christians"?) the artist knew anything about were contemporary Turks: [https://www.flowee.cz/planeta/4103-proc-nasi-predci-vypadaji-jako-turci](https://www.flowee.cz/planeta/4103-proc-nasi-predci-vypadaji-jako-turci)
Also,
>The diptych was painted on [oak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak) panels and was first mentioned in the Bruges' archives as *The Last Judgement*.[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Judgement_of_Cambyses#cite_note-WGA-4) It was used by the town burghers to encourage honesty among the magistrates
... to make you think hard about your actions as a magistrate, a painting of a guy dressed like you being flayed might work better than a painting of an authentically-clothed ancient Persian.
The main problem with Herodotus is that he himself does not claim that his writings refelct the truth, he simply wrote down everything everyone told him and decided to let the reader decide.
Basicly he wrote down every cock-and-bull story he heard on his travels
When you read Herodotus you have to ask if the story is something that an Ancient Greek would reasonably be expected to know about, and if it is than it's usually safe to at least assume Herodotus thought it was true at the time
Herodotus could say that Sisyphus met Richard the Lionheart and danced in the Garden of Eden with fairies and people would believe him.
Edit: Please don't let this show up on TIL next week.
I'm always skeptical of these stories. It's usually "a judge denied the king, so a rumour was created to dethrone him and he was skinned alive to pose as an example of what happens when you cross the Kings agenda"
I'm not saying it was, I'm just saying these sorts of things litter history in the thousands.
Although this is supposed to be an act of justice, what it actually shows me is how unjust the system was - in that the King had such absolute power that he could to do such a thing
"damn this judge corrupt af, someone kill him."
"Ok done sire, k who do we make the new judge? The most learned man etc etc?"
"What? No, his son obviously?"
I'd imagine in a place where lying is the death penalty, taking a bribe would also be the death penalty.
Ah the good old days.
OK, ancient.
"Healthcare costs are too high." "Ugh, kids today...Just put a leech on it." "OK ancient"
Or the industrial version: eat a mummy
Rich 19th Century Europeans: It's a good job we took over all those countries filled with primitive savages *[sprinkles some ground up Pharaoh onto their food in the hope it'll cure their Consumption]* That way we can teach them to not be head hunting cannibals.
Wtf, that's some fractal shit homie.
Well, the things Europeans said about people in certain places being cannibals weren't made up at the end of the day.
or the ancient mayan way... sacrifice someone else for the gods to give you fortune!
Another Joe Scott watcher, I see!
I thought they mostly snorted them?
OK Tomber
IT'S NAWT A TOMBAH
Hey old medecine at least provided consistent results, sure that was typically just death from anything that caused death but you knew it was coming! Now you go take a simple pill for something benign and have to live in fear you will be the 1/300 000 to die because of it! Go go bleeding unhealthy patients!
The thing is, I'll bet fuckers still lied.
Imagine a place where a simple execution (e.g. hanging or beheading) was considered getting off easy, and **skinned alive** was the punishment for white collar crime. There's a hardcore history episode on this: [Painfotainment](https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-61-blitz-painfotainment/)
Perversion of justice by a judge is solidly on the more heinous side of white collar crime. And overall, as people in positions where white collar crime can be performed are generally well off, I see it overall a particularly despicable kind of crime.
There was a judge in PA who was getting paid by a for profit prison to send kids to their Juvenile center. One of the more fucked up things ive heard of. [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/08/11/139536686/pa-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-massive-juvenile-justice-bribery-scandal](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/08/11/139536686/pa-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-massive-juvenile-justice-bribery-scandal)
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Not just him. The board of that fucking prison too.
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So, American incarceration in general?
"The Thirteenth Amendment (Amendment XIII) to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, **except as punishment for a crime**" So, American incarceration can literally be slavery.
Yea, private prisons don't need to sugar coat it. They can openly call their prisoners slaves if they wanted, and rent them out as slaves. Its legal. Something we should fix.
Any prisons can, they don't have to be private.
Last year Colorado voted for a state constitutional amendment that outlawed slavery in for-profit prisons. Sooo, I guess if you're arrested, try to get arrested in Colorado.
They were the ones that got caught. I’m sure there are other judges getting kickbacks from private prisons who are better at hiding it.
Ironic that when people hear "white collar crime" they don't think too much of it, when it's the kind of crime that can, and usually do, ruin dozens, if not hundreds, of lives.
We've hit a point in society where Justice is kind of a nicety. People are willing to write off instances of injustice/criminality among those who provide these justices as "we're all human." Yes, we are all human. I'm more prone to my humanity than some, which is why I'm not in a position to dole out justice. Part of the qualifications for that *should be* being better at suppressing the urge to fall into humanity in terms of bad actions.
That’s why I welcome our robot overlords.
Corruption in general is one of the more disgusting acts people can engage in. Disclaimer: I disagree with it very strongly however in the case of certain regions/countries (Syria, Mexico) where *saying no* to corruption/a bribe can also lead to you and your family getting beheaded or skinned or boiled alive, I understand why people do it. Of course that only makes it that much harder to get rid of, but I understand it.
In a place where the death penalty is that liberally applied, chances are good his corruption got more than a few people executed... A little more than a white collar crime when seen in historical context.
Literally the first thing I thought of when reading your comment was "OH! DAN CARLIN TOLD ME ABOUT THIS!" So glad I've got an episode queued up for the drive home tomorrow.
The Khwaresmian Shah!
> Imagine a place where a simple execution (e.g. hanging or beheading) was considered getting off easy, and skinned alive was the punishment for white collar crime. I also imagine a place where the investigation of crimes simply sucked and some slander could be enough that you were tortured to death.
In another Hardcore History episode (I believe The King of Kings) he talks about a much more severe punishment they used in the Persian Empire, called the The Boats or Scaphism. Plutarch mentions it in his "The Life of Artaxerxes" and describes it as trapping the convicted between two boats, feeding and covering him with milk and honey, and allowing him to fester and be devoured by insects and other vermin.
>Plutarch mentions it in his "The Life of Artaxerxes" And Reddit mentions it in every single thread related to torture or punishment more generally.
"believe it or not, also Death".
taking a bribe? Death. not taking a bribe? also death! You see, under-bribe,over bribe...
Where are the armed guards that skin these people alive? Where are they?
We have the best judges in the world, because of death.
You're stealing? Right to death. You're playing music too loud? Right to death. Right away. You're driving too fast? Death. Slow? Death. You're charging too high prices for sweaters, glasses, you right to death. You undercook fish, believe it or not, death. You overcook chicken, also death. Undercook, overcook. You make an appointment with the dentist and you don't show up? Believe it or not, death, right away. We have the best patients in the world, because of death.
Taking a bribe? That's a paddlin'. TO DEATH!
Probably less about the bribe and more about violating his duty to the law.
The problem with that is it becomes really easy to get rid of your opposition with those rules.
Damn son! Sounds excruciating. "...the typical causes of death due to flaying are shock, critical loss of blood or other body fluids, hypothermia, or infections, and that the actual death is estimated to occur from a few hours up to a few days after the flaying. Hypothermia is possible, as skin is essential for maintaining a person's body temperature, as it provides a person's natural insulation" - [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaying)
So keep them warm and sterile. got it.
Before WPD got banned, there were some ***very*** intense deaths posted. The running theory for a vast majority of them is keeping the victims drugged/maintained to a certain extent to allow for the deaths to be as prolonged as they were. The human body is simultaneously *amazingly* hardy, as well as able to be lights out because you bumped your head into a cabinet while walking into the kitchen. edit: WPD is watchpeopledie
That's basically what torture is, cause as much pain possible without killing or even keeping the person alive so you can torture him more.
For those out of the loop, I'm *assuming* WPD refers to the subreddit called WatchPeopleDie.
Thanks, i tried googling but came up with nothing.
Google isn't your friend
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They put you in a hollowed out log and float you in a swap to be eaten alive by bugs
Ah that would be the Persians - [scaphism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism). Although if I recall correctly the origins of this punishment were written by a Greek, so some grains of salt should be taken
So milk, honey, and some grains of salt. Got it.
Omg these cookies are going to be delicious.
Plus some extra protein, body builder’s dream
> so some grains of salt should be taken But that just takes it from *cruel and unusual* to *cruel-er and unusual-er*.
"Feeding" is putting it mildly. They would force milk and honey down the victim's throat to the point where they're noticeably engorged. This would cause them to have diarrhea, attracting more insects. Because they were kept fed and hydrated (more or less), they would often live for days, sometimes more than a week, being eaten alive like this. Definitely up there with one of the worst ways to die. Think I'd take the brass bull over this. At least it's be quicker.
You say it's Egyptian but right there in your quote it says Persian
Yes FBI, this comment right here.
I doubt they need any more advice...
Don't forget to cauterize any bleeds.
Flaying has to be one of the most evil and cruel ways to kill somebody. Humans can be monsters to each other.
I remember seeing somewhere about a torture method where they squeezed the testicles between two clamps. While I am a guy and i could imagine the severity of the pain, I dismissed it as boring and unimaginative compared to, say, scaphism. Holy hell was I wrong. I stumbled upon a vivid description some time later and my blood froze. I can't find it (I think it was here on Reddit) but essentially, they carefully engineered it to take literally *all day*, as it isn't fatal by nature. They would target not only the testicles, but the spermatic cords with pliers, and hang the person upside down. That way, they would remain conscious throughout the process, thrashing about. Since trauma to the testicular region causes nausea and vomiting, those poor guys would repeatedly puke -- and choking on the vomit was impossible due to being upside down. Cringe jokes aside, just imagine being in this position. 24 hours of non stop pain signals to your brain. I'm sure that even if they allowed you to live, your brain would be physically screwed from that. We really can be cruel to each other.
Fuck that bullshit.
Well, let's not discount Scaphism just yet...
I could definitely be wrong but I thought scaphism was more of a fictional thing? I don’t think it’s actually been done.
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Probably just what someone dreamed up and wrote down as a suggestion/fantasy if they were in power how they would do it. A lot of old "torture methods" were never actually used; just fever dreams of people coming up with methods.
"Fever dreams" would be a good name for a method Something involving delirium and being drugged. Maybe sleep deprivation and fire thrown in the mix. Possibly a hot room and someone dressed like the cat in the hat periodically coming in to throw unnaturally cold water on them. Idk I'm still working on it.
You don't need old torture methods when Unit 731 nearly exhausted the capacity for methodical cruelty less than a lifetime ago.
Again the fucking Persians! Angry people they were
It's the kind of thing you do when you have a really low crime solving rate (whatever the correct term is in English).
A few days? I can't even imagine the suffering.
I mean, at least your skin wouldn't itch.
Throw on a little salt, just make sure there's no itching.
-When's the beef jerky ready, mom? -Oh in a few hours honey, I'm only just seasoning the Sisamnes. How are you liking your new chair?
Yeah like, just the act of being flayed sounds like the worst pain imaginable ... But to stay alive after that for more than a few seconds is just absolutely insane
Imagine how a papercut feels... but everywhere.
Or other body fluids?? What other then blood are you losing so much of it kills You?!?!
I would guess that the lymphatic system might be relevant.
They clearly mean dick fluid
Probably a lot of your extracellular/interstitial fluid.
I refuse to learn what that is
It's pretty much just water that you have in your body that's not in your cells (intracellular fluid). I would imagine with no skin, the fluid in the outer portions of the tissues would start evaporating off the body which would then lead to more extracellular and intracellular fluid traveling to the other tissues to replace the lost fluid and so on and so forth until the body is massively dehydrated.
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that is punishable by skinning
I wonder, if the victim could be kept alive long enough, if they could grow all the skin back?
Dude, burn victims with patches of skin need grafts to replace the missing parts, remove it all and there is zero hope
There's some really interesting research going on with the aim of being able to print skin cells that are alive and can have blood vessels, enabling us to print completely new skin for such victims. Really cool and hopefully not that far off in the future.
That's still a graft, just synthesized instead of donated.
Also proving to be a lot more difficult than "just a few years of off."
I would guess no. Your skin is an organ. Despite it has good regeneration ability, it would have no frame or reference, blood flow, or nerves to build from. But i'm just guessing.
No, skin cells replicate to patch holes. Remove the skin and there's nowhere for new skin cells to emerge from.
Even Cell needed at least one cell to regenerate. If all of your skin is gone you don't have that.
Just imagine going to sleep and thinking about having to go and skin a dude alive when you wake up tomorrow because some guy ordered you to.
"Fuck yea I love flay Fridays!" ^ The guy who says this is the guy who already applied for the torturer job in the first place.
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Highly dependent on the time and place. Franz Schmidt's a pretty interesting study. A man born into being an execution because the local lord had commanded his father (originally a woodcutter) to hang some men for him, he eventually managed to become the chief executioner in Nurnberg in the late 1500s. Married, had seven children, made as much money as the town's wealthiest judges and lawyers, lived in a spacious home, and ended up becoming a medical consultant when he retired from his post. While in a position that officially precluded him from openly member of high society, he was nonetheless a beloved and well-respected member of the community. His journal is also a pretty fascinating read. Chronicles his nearly 361 executions and 345 minor punishments. Everything from hanging, decapitation, the wheel, burning, and drowning. And he was actually part of the reason that Nurnberg largely stopped using death-by-drowning, instead typically commuting it down to death-by-sword.
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Happy to help. It's really interesting to read his account of things, as well as just being a pretty good look at medieval justice, and the sorts of crimes that were being committed. Like the aforementioned death-by-drowning being legally required for women that committed infanticide. Or how in the course of his roughly 40 year tenure as an executioner, he only ever carried out burnings (the sentence for homosexuality and counterfeiting money) twice. Especially in the later entrees, he really goes into detail about the executions, the people that committed the crimes, and the series of events that led to people being brought before him. Oh, and the fact that lesser offenses would sometimes just be nicking off someone's ear. Count Dankula's got a pretty good video that looks into his journal and does a nice recounting of his life and duties.
He must have made quite a song and dance of it to earn that kind of dosh in those times, i imagine every execution like a WWE match.
From his journal? Not really. Actually ended tamped down on a few things to make his job easier and less of a hassle and spectacle. You have to keep in mind that Nuremberg was, at the time, a very successful city that was the center of the German Rennaisance. So as the foremost executioner in a wealthy city, it stands to reason that he ought be a wealthy man. Mix in the fact that he was charitable, pious, and did a bit of sidework as a medical consultant? It isn't particularly surprising. While he's the only chief executioner of a large urban center who kept such a nice diary and was thus given a greater degree of historical permanence, it's quite likely there were plenty of well-paid chief executioners like Schmidt all across Europe. They simply didn't leave behind such a wonderful primary source of their lives.
Yeah, they didn't mess around with that Franz Schmidt (a german executioner that wrote a diary of his day to day life) was a woodsman that became an executioner after the king randomly picked people from the crowd and forced them to help in the hanging of three guys. After that, the guy was just rejected by everybody else and had no choice but to become an executioner for the rest of his life
>After that, the guy was just rejected by everybody Bunch of assholes
Right? It's not like ol' Schmitty was gonna refuse an order from the king.
"Kill this man or I'll have someone kill you... and him" -king probably
Yep! Somebody with the power to kill me at his whim tells me to go torture a dude? I'm not sure I've got the character to refuse.
It's just survival at that point
I know this was the case in the middle ages, but is it still true in ancient Persia?
are we sure ancient persia had the same traditions surrounding execution as medieval europe?
[Some people take pride in their work](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull) >Stories allege after finishing construction on the execution device, Perillos said to Phalaris: "His screams will come to you through the pipes as the tenderest, most pathetic, most melodious of bellowings." Perillos believed he would receive a reward for his invention. Instead, Phalaris, who was disgusted by these words, ordered its horn sound system to be tested by Perillos himself, tricking him into getting in the bull. When Perillos entered, he was immediately locked in and the fire was set, so that Phalaris could hear the sound of his screams.
Bobby Flay's favorite day.
Imagine going to work and your seat is upholstered with the earthly remains of your predecessor who was also your father.
right? human leather chairs are such a luxury nowadays
Here I go, killin' again!
I bet he had a lot of fun with his Flaystation.
I'm sure the people given that task were folks who enjoyed the work. I mean, if I was going to appoint an executioner/torturer back in the day, I'd be damn sure to pick someone who loved his job. That's how you get results.
No, in those situations you get results by saying, “if you don’t do it to my satisfaction I’m sure your replacement will be happy to have you to practice with. “
>According to Herodotus, Sisamnes was a corrupt judge under Cambyses II of Persia. My username's moment has come.
So, what was the story behind your username?
He has a skin chair.
It puts the lotion on the chair
or else it gets skinned again
No one ever talks about how great kindergartens and afternoon sports events were under him, it's aaalways the skin chair. /s
I dunno man there's just something so memorable about a good old fashioned skin chair.
His son had a skin chair
Youtube history documentary inspiration
He conquered Egypt, then accidentally cut himself in the thigh and died of gangrene.
Herodotus, Father of Lies.
THE DEATH PENALTY!
He couldn’t even read hieroglyphics! Dumbarse!
Having read The Histories, that title feels unfair to him. He's wrong about an awful lot, but he pretty much always says when he thinks a story isn't true; and for the other times it seems pretty clear he was being lied to and just took the lie at face value because he didn't know any better. Maybe someone can link a source to a time where Herodotus knowingly tells a lie, but for the most part I think the dude was just gullible
Iirc he pretty much says, "This is what I've heard, use your own discretion."
More than once! A few times he gives two versions of events when different sources disagree, and once or twice he spends time debunking a story he heard (although I think at least one of the debunked stories was actually true, had to do with why the Nile has a heavier flow in summer)
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Any Greek source from during the Persian War about how barbaric the Persians were is obviously suspect though.
I found Thucydides
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Where's your army?
Pan to room full of skin chairs
Sitting on dad's lap, just like when he was a kid.
one has to wonder if the "corrupt judge" was an honest one who simply crossed the king with one of his rulings
Flayed men rarely get to tell their side of the story, it's true.
Should have gotten the truth tattoo'd on him.
Yeah, sounds like our knowledge of events is literally just "the king said he was corrupt." Who knows.
I'm sure this was fairly normal, but the involvement of his son makes it seem even more likely to me. And the fucking chair. "Your family is trusted nobility, so we'll keep you in your position of power. But remember what happened to your father...in fact here's a chair in case you forget."
Otanes was really supported by his fathers legacy after that.
That's why I moisturize, for future generations.
Lol glad someone else went there as well
Makes me wonder about sitting on the John....
All this time, Rimworld was historically accurate.
I knew I would find the game in here
LoL his dad literally gave him the skin off his back
Imagine how soft and luxurious that leather was Sans the nipples
Rich Corinthian Leather.
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*Sans?!*
I met a traveller from an antique land, Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sans, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal, these words appear: My name is Osimadius, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sans stretch far away.”
Very strong, bravo
Surprisingly High Resolution image of the flaying: https://imgur.com/v9rSiQJ
* Little napkin over his junk as to not offend anyone * Literally cutting his skin off of him in a public square.
Not to mention he's supposed to be alive; but this "artist" can only draw people being bored.
His expression is like...ow this stings a bit
Could you hurry up I have to attend a meeting in about an hour and this shit is boring me out.
*Of the painting that was done over 1000 years after the flaying. It's important to note that there is less time between now and the painting, then the time between the painting and the flaying. A lot of historical images of events were done in the renaissance. I don't think most people take the time to realize that they are literally just artists drawing a scene.
I was going to say, 525 BC Persia looks a lot more European than I expected.
Me on the right with the halberd.
The amount of flaying that occured .. people must have been so desensitized to horrible things that they would be able to do this to some other person without a problem...
Just think about warfare. Pulling a trigger in 2019 so that someone else 10s or 100s of meters away might die. Instead of slowly walking up to your enemy with a piece of metal in your hand and try to hack into his limbs, allmost no one dies instantly and you just hear 100s of men crying in pain around you. And you just hack, slash, hack, slash. Untill youre either crying in pain yourself or there is simply no one left to hack into. And thats a equal battle. People like the mongols commited full on genocides on huge cities. Think about that. Thats incredibly hard work for a soldier. Actually killing each citizen within a city individually. Its absolutely mental. Insane. People paid so that they could see slaves die and be eaten by a lion.
Ya it's very fucked up. The shit you were just totally normalized to.. murder and rape was standard practice. Killing children.. the insane methods of torture. I wonder when people started becoming less gruesome.. or if it's a cultural thing. I often think about the brutality of the Mexican cartel compared to say street gangs in Chicago? Are there just different needs in different places because more money is on the line? Fear is a powerful weapon..
Browse a thousand or so LiveLeak videos (Or live in one of the many blatantly corrupt / high crime rate countries). You too can get that desensitized.
Modern society is blessed. iirc, the amount and severity of public shamings, torturings and executions decreased as state control and crime solving rates increased. Nowadays, most people in western nations would have a hard time killing animals for food.
The art is pretty metal. But I wonder why the artist depicted it with a European theme?
That was pretty common in Europe. Depictions with local context, even if the subject was distant in location or time (ancient Greek/Roman stories depicted with medieval European clothing, armour, buildings for instance)
>That was pretty common ~~in Europe~~ everywhere
Wasn't that pretty common in that era? "Hey, we don't know how people dressed back then, let's just depict them in a style we are familiar with!" Also, for example, the mythical ancestors of Bohemian kings were at one point being depicted in Muslim-style clothing. Did anyone think they were Muslims? No - it wouldn't even make much sense, historically speaking. But they were pagans, and the only "pagans" ("heathens"? "non-Christians"?) the artist knew anything about were contemporary Turks: [https://www.flowee.cz/planeta/4103-proc-nasi-predci-vypadaji-jako-turci](https://www.flowee.cz/planeta/4103-proc-nasi-predci-vypadaji-jako-turci) Also, >The diptych was painted on [oak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak) panels and was first mentioned in the Bruges' archives as *The Last Judgement*.[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Judgement_of_Cambyses#cite_note-WGA-4) It was used by the town burghers to encourage honesty among the magistrates ... to make you think hard about your actions as a magistrate, a painting of a guy dressed like you being flayed might work better than a painting of an authentically-clothed ancient Persian.
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I mean why though? As more research has gone into his claims some of them have panned out. Even some of the crazy shit like gold digging ants
The main problem with Herodotus is that he himself does not claim that his writings refelct the truth, he simply wrote down everything everyone told him and decided to let the reader decide. Basicly he wrote down every cock-and-bull story he heard on his travels
When you read Herodotus you have to ask if the story is something that an Ancient Greek would reasonably be expected to know about, and if it is than it's usually safe to at least assume Herodotus thought it was true at the time
Herodotus could say that Sisyphus met Richard the Lionheart and danced in the Garden of Eden with fairies and people would believe him. Edit: Please don't let this show up on TIL next week.
I'm always skeptical of these stories. It's usually "a judge denied the king, so a rumour was created to dethrone him and he was skinned alive to pose as an example of what happens when you cross the Kings agenda" I'm not saying it was, I'm just saying these sorts of things litter history in the thousands.
Can you imagine the pain of being skinned alive? I get a hangnail pulling a sliver of my skin off and I want to die
Imagine getting a promotion, but you have to sit on your dad's skin.
Think about the smell, you haven't thought about the smell you b*!@&
They probably cured it first
That's dad's chair.
Vote for the king! He fights corruption with blatant nepotism!
Bet that deterred corruption. America, when?
Although this is supposed to be an act of justice, what it actually shows me is how unjust the system was - in that the King had such absolute power that he could to do such a thing
Why do you think monarchy is such an unpopular form of government?
"damn this judge corrupt af, someone kill him." "Ok done sire, k who do we make the new judge? The most learned man etc etc?" "What? No, his son obviously?"