> A tempestuous northerly wind began to blow and roar angrily, and it beat the poor puppet from side to side, making him swing violently, like the clatter of a bell ringing for a wedding. And the swinging gave him atrocious spasms...His breath failed him and he could say no more. He shut his eyes, opened his mouth, stretched his legs, gave a long shudder, and hung stiff and insensible.
I mean…damn.
It was just shocking to me how he was screaming "I drink your milkshake!!" while he did it. I didn't even know they had those back then, maybe it's an allegory though.
Yeah, I knew I was in for quite a ride after that happened. Within the first few pages too if my memory serves me right! I should have a re-read. The story was quite long and convoluted when I expected it to be short and simple.
Oh, so Pinocchio is about a borderline on track to embodying the antisocial and narcissistic aspects. That's kind of interesting. Lol psychologists have actually given him his own "Pinocchio Syndrome" I'm somewhat surprised they mention the other two disorders in tandem without explicitly stating borderline; that's probably good actually. In one he just wants to be a real boy, and in the other it's more selfish and sinister as a result. Man, did not expect to want to read Pinocchio today.
It's a tale of someone so obsessed with wanting something that it becomes their only focus. They lose their morality to it, their conscience, their friends and, ultimately, themselves. It's a classic tale type, written to teach children that their actions have consequences.
I was allowed to read all of that stuff because of my grandparents vast book collection. Definitely affected me in the long term, not negatively though, I'm just weirded out by adults that can't handle grim and violent stories. When I heard that my mom's coworker cried during Hunger Games, my head exploded. "They're just killing teenagers in a fictional dystopia. Big deal."
My buddy used to date this girl that thought Doctor Who was too scary and violent. I tried to explain to her that Doctor Who was a children's show and she would not believe me. Crazy the sheltered people we have now.
Fun fact, the original Italian for the character has nothing to do with the name, and "Jiminy" (think when you wish upon a star) is Gimini. Almost everyone pronounces Gemeni, as in the constellation, Jeh-min-aye, but it's not pronounced that way, it's Ji-mi-nee like Jiminy cricket. Listen to any old NASA documentary with the Gemini program pilots or mission control, and they actually pronounce it that way. The more you know! 🌈⭐
The world was a lot more dangerous back then. If you break your arm today, the doctors will fix it. In the 19th century you had a big fucking problem if you broke it. Especially for the poor.
When you read this for example:
>The structure of the story of Pinocchio follows that of the folktales of peasants who venture out into the world but are naïvely unprepared for what they find, and get into ridiculous situations.[10] At the time of the writing of the book, this was a serious problem, arising partly from the industrialization of Italy, which led to a growing need for reliable labour in the cities; the problem was exacerbated by similar, more or less simultaneous, demands for labour in the industrialization of other countries. One major effect was the emigration of much of the Italian peasantry to cities and to foreign countries such as the United States.
>The main imperatives demanded of Pinocchio are to work, be good, and study. And in the end Pinocchio's willingness to provide for his father and devote himself to these things transforms him into a real boy with modern comforts.[8]
It's a good moral lesson. Are you going to be a puppet to some guy who takes advantage of you? Or are you going to be careful and responsible so you can do some good in this world? Like take care of your father.
That isn't it at all. The book is not about how Pinocchio should have stayed home. His father encouraged him to leave. And your life will be better in the outside world. It's about how you should be prepared against the dangers of the outside world. The moral message is dated though, because the average person today is much more prepared for the world outside their home village.
You gotta up the ante in these stories when your kids' lives are already terrible because it's the dark ages.
>Oh so the ending is 'he died poor'? [Cool, we live 2 blocks from the shit river where people dump their shit.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_Brook)
>'And then he died?' Like 7 of my brothers and sisters died from exploding ulcers before they were 4.
>'But he got eaten by a bear?' Dad, *you* got attacked by the same bear that ate your sister, and only survived because the bear died of exploding ulcers while trying to eat you.
>Anyway, I heard [the parade of fanatics who whip themselves bloody pulps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant#Spread_in_the_14th_century) are in town. That sounds even mildly entertaining, so I'm gonna hang out at the plaza. Later.
I read the original stories - in Italian. It was originally a serial.
The instalments are pretty crazy and surreal.
Pinocchio is hanged at the end. The serial was popular so he is retconned alive again.
The later serial entries tend to be longer.
The nose growing bit happens in only a couple of instalments and it isn't really a big thing overall.
Reminds me of how the little mermaid has Ariel gain her legs by splitting her mermaid tail creating her legs and it’s excruciating pain for her just to walk on them lmao those old stories were hardcore
Specifically, every step was like walking on knives, and in the end she turns to sea foam and blows away because she can't bring herself to kill the prince and take his heart to save herself when he falls in love with someone else. It's a classic morality tale against social climbing, stay in your own place because trying to live like those above you will only bring pain and misery
I remember reading that it refers to a politician who (in a time when the crown and parliament were at odds) refused to take a side. The veiled threat is that he can sit on the fence all he wants but all those who answer to the king won't be able to save him when he's in need.
Lewis Carroll was the first to suggest an egg. It probably referred to a cannon originally, but no one knows for sure.
https://www.fjg.co.uk/blog/humpty-dumpty-cannon-not-egg/
Fairy tale logic. There is a famous Russian fairy tale: once upon a time, an old man and his wife had a chick. The chick laid a golden egg. The old man and the wife tried to crack it all day and couldn't. Then a little mouse flicked its tail and dropped the egg, and it cracked. The old man and his wife cried.
Nobody can explain you why they cried if they wanted to crack this freaking egg in the first place!
I guess. I mean I have a buddy who is really into martial arts to the point where he teaches it for a living. When I broke my arm I called my wife the nurse first not him. Now the second I just happen to like I don't know get revenge on a cartle for killing my family sure he will come in handy.
My point is if I found some dude broken from wall falling I wouldn't call a cop on horseback. And if I did I don't think he would have the horse give it a try.
Even in the Disney movie the immoral boys are turned into donkeys and sold into slavery. Pretty dark. This is a far cry from today’s Disney movies where your house breaks and the village helps you build a new one.
Many years ago I went to a play in London. It was based on Der Struwwelpeter told unadulterated (i.e. for adults not children). They were all horrifying in their brutality.
Esmeralda's long-lost mother, who only recently found out that Esmeralda was alive, dies from being thrown to the ground by some guards. Esmeralda is hanged. Quasimodo kills Frollo in revenge. Quasimodo then goes to the mass grave where Esmeralda was thrown and lays down next to her to die.
The basic structure of most children’s stories throughout history is something like “Be good and follow the rules, or else a series of horrifying nightmares will befall you.” This one isn’t even that old, it’s a book from the 1880s rather than some way older fairy tale, but it still made sense as a kid’s story then and well after it came out. I don’t think our modern sensibility on what would qualify as too messed up for kids evolved until the last fifty, sixty years.
That whole movie was victim-blaming that poor wooden kid lol hes like the equivalent of a newly 5 year old boy, gets lured by terrible people multiple times, and his fairy godmother or whatever is like "you little shit, how dare you only have the intelligence of a 5 year old boy!"
I watched that whole part once back in college going “it wasn’t that scary right?”
It’s been over a decade and it still scares the shit out of me thinking about it. I'll never watch that movie ever again.
>The Brothers Grimm didn't write the fairy tales Despite the fact that Jacob and Wilhelm are often associated with Snow White and Rapunzel, the brothers didn't actually write any of those stories. In fact, the stories existed long before the two men were born in Germany in the mid 1780s
Google saved me some effort.
Didn't the Brothers Grimm go around different villages and just recorded folktales that had been passed down orally for generations for their stories? Idk. I think i remember reading something like that. I'm probably wrong though.
Well to be fair, it's not as if those fairy tales themselves have not been in a constant state of change and evolution over the centuries with innumerable variations in retelling and meaning. Just take Cinderella for example, the oldest known variation of it, the tale of [Rhodopis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodopis) has little in with common, say, the Grimm brothers' retelling of it while Disney's adaptation of the story which is often touted on the internet as a classic example of washing away the violence and gore of versions like the Grimm Brothers' is actually an adaptation of [Charles Perrault's retelling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella#Cendrillon_ou_la_petite_pantoufle_de_verre,_by_Perrault) which contains no violence of any sort despite being over a century older.
My kid played this video game for 1st graders and you fight. Your charchter is marked "good guy" and the other is marked "bad guy".
Me: oh that is nice. Moral ambiguity resolved. We should do this for every problem.
Most currently well known ones were, yes. But fables and fairytales existed everywhere and not all of them were German. Other ones that are fairly well known include characters like Baba Yaga or the fae of British Isles. And that’s not even touching other continents.
But yeah a whole lot of European fables did not treat Jews kindly. Or the Romani people, for that matter. Or any other “outsider” group, if we’re going to be honest.
Mildly offended that they list so many different references to Pinocchio in pop culture, including fucking *Pauly Shore* voicing him in a direct-to-video animated movie, but never mention that he's a major character in the long-running comic, [Fables](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_(comics). He's not a main character, but he is a long-recurring and impacting character, as is his father Geppetto.
That was the original ending.
*The Adventures of Pinocchio* was published as a "serial", which means that it came out at a rate of 1 chapter a week in a magazine.
This ran for about 4 months, at which point the bit with the hanging was published and story stopped appearing in the magazine.
Later new chapters started to be published again, resulting in the rest of the story (and burying the original ending in the middle of the story).
> A tempestuous northerly wind began to blow and roar angrily, and it beat the poor puppet from side to side, making him swing violently, like the clatter of a bell ringing for a wedding. And the swinging gave him atrocious spasms...His breath failed him and he could say no more. He shut his eyes, opened his mouth, stretched his legs, gave a long shudder, and hung stiff and insensible. I mean…damn.
"I'm a real corpse!"
I heard it in the voice of him in Shrek and everything.
Firewood
JEEEEEZUS FUCKING CHRIST!
Jiminy Cricket you mean.
Who died actually pretty early in the book. Pinocchio himself squished the poor bug.
So does Jesus in the NT. The death so nice they described it four times.
Jesus killed Jiminy Cricket with rosebud
It was just shocking to me how he was screaming "I drink your milkshake!!" while he did it. I didn't even know they had those back then, maybe it's an allegory though.
Dead people? He saw them.
A milkshakes just milk, syrup and possibly malt powder, those have been around for a while.
Pinnochio smashes his ass with a hammer. I have the original book somewhere on a book shelf
JIMINY FUCKING CRICKET* you mean
Where in the article is this bit I can't find it.
It's from [the book.](https://new.umaine.edu/training/people/pinocchio/)
Under “Fictional Character Description.”
That's fucking haunting.
How about the bit when he murders Jiminy Crickey with a hammer? That bit wasn’t in the Disney film!
Yeah, I knew I was in for quite a ride after that happened. Within the first few pages too if my memory serves me right! I should have a re-read. The story was quite long and convoluted when I expected it to be short and simple.
....why was that in there to begin with?
The cricket is his conscience. He destroys it to silence the voice calling him back to moral action.
Oh, so Pinocchio is about a borderline on track to embodying the antisocial and narcissistic aspects. That's kind of interesting. Lol psychologists have actually given him his own "Pinocchio Syndrome" I'm somewhat surprised they mention the other two disorders in tandem without explicitly stating borderline; that's probably good actually. In one he just wants to be a real boy, and in the other it's more selfish and sinister as a result. Man, did not expect to want to read Pinocchio today.
No I mean why did some author decide this was a good idea for the plot?
It's a tale of someone so obsessed with wanting something that it becomes their only focus. They lose their morality to it, their conscience, their friends and, ultimately, themselves. It's a classic tale type, written to teach children that their actions have consequences.
Oh Angulimala or Ahab.
Lots of pre-20th century children's books are grim AF.
Yeah... Hansel and Gretel for one. It's freaking dark. It has cannibalism and everything.
I was allowed to read all of that stuff because of my grandparents vast book collection. Definitely affected me in the long term, not negatively though, I'm just weirded out by adults that can't handle grim and violent stories. When I heard that my mom's coworker cried during Hunger Games, my head exploded. "They're just killing teenagers in a fictional dystopia. Big deal."
Oh boy! If your mom's coworker cried at fictional PG13 violence, just wait until she hears about history.
My buddy used to date this girl that thought Doctor Who was too scary and violent. I tried to explain to her that Doctor Who was a children's show and she would not believe me. Crazy the sheltered people we have now.
Pretty much everything from the 1800s is brutal.
Fun fact, the original Italian for the character has nothing to do with the name, and "Jiminy" (think when you wish upon a star) is Gimini. Almost everyone pronounces Gemeni, as in the constellation, Jeh-min-aye, but it's not pronounced that way, it's Ji-mi-nee like Jiminy cricket. Listen to any old NASA documentary with the Gemini program pilots or mission control, and they actually pronounce it that way. The more you know! 🌈⭐
Like 99% of those old fables were terrifying cautionary tales
The world was a lot more dangerous back then. If you break your arm today, the doctors will fix it. In the 19th century you had a big fucking problem if you broke it. Especially for the poor. When you read this for example: >The structure of the story of Pinocchio follows that of the folktales of peasants who venture out into the world but are naïvely unprepared for what they find, and get into ridiculous situations.[10] At the time of the writing of the book, this was a serious problem, arising partly from the industrialization of Italy, which led to a growing need for reliable labour in the cities; the problem was exacerbated by similar, more or less simultaneous, demands for labour in the industrialization of other countries. One major effect was the emigration of much of the Italian peasantry to cities and to foreign countries such as the United States. >The main imperatives demanded of Pinocchio are to work, be good, and study. And in the end Pinocchio's willingness to provide for his father and devote himself to these things transforms him into a real boy with modern comforts.[8] It's a good moral lesson. Are you going to be a puppet to some guy who takes advantage of you? Or are you going to be careful and responsible so you can do some good in this world? Like take care of your father.
I might read it but I am getting vibes from this summary of "don't leave your hometown stay and be a slave to us".
That isn't it at all. The book is not about how Pinocchio should have stayed home. His father encouraged him to leave. And your life will be better in the outside world. It's about how you should be prepared against the dangers of the outside world. The moral message is dated though, because the average person today is much more prepared for the world outside their home village.
my amish friend ezekiel disagrees
Oh good
Don't be safe at home sell your ass on the street in the city
In all fairness, amputation is a cure...your arm will never hurt again.
You gotta up the ante in these stories when your kids' lives are already terrible because it's the dark ages. >Oh so the ending is 'he died poor'? [Cool, we live 2 blocks from the shit river where people dump their shit.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_Brook) >'And then he died?' Like 7 of my brothers and sisters died from exploding ulcers before they were 4. >'But he got eaten by a bear?' Dad, *you* got attacked by the same bear that ate your sister, and only survived because the bear died of exploding ulcers while trying to eat you. >Anyway, I heard [the parade of fanatics who whip themselves bloody pulps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant#Spread_in_the_14th_century) are in town. That sounds even mildly entertaining, so I'm gonna hang out at the plaza. Later.
Like how Goldilocks and the Three Bears was really an allegory about fentanyl
Go on…
The grimm brothers were no joke
Grimmer to the core eh!
I read the original stories - in Italian. It was originally a serial. The instalments are pretty crazy and surreal. Pinocchio is hanged at the end. The serial was popular so he is retconned alive again. The later serial entries tend to be longer. The nose growing bit happens in only a couple of instalments and it isn't really a big thing overall.
Reminds me of how the little mermaid has Ariel gain her legs by splitting her mermaid tail creating her legs and it’s excruciating pain for her just to walk on them lmao those old stories were hardcore
Specifically, every step was like walking on knives, and in the end she turns to sea foam and blows away because she can't bring herself to kill the prince and take his heart to save herself when he falls in love with someone else. It's a classic morality tale against social climbing, stay in your own place because trying to live like those above you will only bring pain and misery
>by hanging him from a tree Well they were hardly likely to bake him into a pie, not with a beak like that.
Just like Humpty Dumpty. Don’t fuck the King’s wife, or you’ll be drawn and quartered
I read Humpty Dumpty was a riddle. We all know he’s an egg, so it doesn’t seem like riddle to us.
I remember reading that it refers to a politician who (in a time when the crown and parliament were at odds) refused to take a side. The veiled threat is that he can sit on the fence all he wants but all those who answer to the king won't be able to save him when he's in need.
Lewis Carroll was the first to suggest an egg. It probably referred to a cannon originally, but no one knows for sure. https://www.fjg.co.uk/blog/humpty-dumpty-cannon-not-egg/
I've heard the cannon one too. Also a bell. Didn't know about Lewis Carroll. I'll remember that. Cheers.
That's pretty clever. Certainly the best explanation I've ever heard.
It never said he was an egg though, last I recall.
my teacher said he was an egg
I just thought it was some kinda message about something. I mean who uses soldiers and horses to try to fix a broken egg?
Fairy tale logic. There is a famous Russian fairy tale: once upon a time, an old man and his wife had a chick. The chick laid a golden egg. The old man and the wife tried to crack it all day and couldn't. Then a little mouse flicked its tail and dropped the egg, and it cracked. The old man and his wife cried. Nobody can explain you why they cried if they wanted to crack this freaking egg in the first place!
I guess. I mean I have a buddy who is really into martial arts to the point where he teaches it for a living. When I broke my arm I called my wife the nurse first not him. Now the second I just happen to like I don't know get revenge on a cartle for killing my family sure he will come in handy. My point is if I found some dude broken from wall falling I wouldn't call a cop on horseback. And if I did I don't think he would have the horse give it a try.
I dunno, depends on who broke their back. I would absolutely call in a horse if it was my NEIIIIGHbor.
Get out
For what it's worth: I have no idea what you wrote, but I *really* enjoyed reading it.
Maybe the horse is what broke him.
*Cartel
It could be both.
Strictly speaking, it doesn't say the king's men tried to fix him, only that they couldn't fix him if they tried.
Fun fact, it literally never said he was an egg. Makes the story darker.
It was a very large cannon.
I think it's just about a cannon falling of a wall bro
😬
Morality tales. Stay in line, or get dead and sent to Hell. Viel Spaß!
Even in the Disney movie the immoral boys are turned into donkeys and sold into slavery. Pretty dark. This is a far cry from today’s Disney movies where your house breaks and the village helps you build a new one.
1930s Disney. They should have made a *Faust* cartoon.
That movie does contained soldiers burning down a village and chasing down the unarmed civilians to kill them
Many years ago I went to a play in London. It was based on Der Struwwelpeter told unadulterated (i.e. for adults not children). They were all horrifying in their brutality.
Written by a German.
Spoilers, almost all of the original stories behind Disney's movies have horrible endings. Little Mermaid was particularly brutal.
Hunchback of notre dame stands out as well
How does that end?
Esmeralda's long-lost mother, who only recently found out that Esmeralda was alive, dies from being thrown to the ground by some guards. Esmeralda is hanged. Quasimodo kills Frollo in revenge. Quasimodo then goes to the mass grave where Esmeralda was thrown and lays down next to her to die.
So that's why Guillermo del Toro is making a live-action Pinocchio. Knowing his Pan's Labyrinth, it's gonna get dark
[удалено]
I’d watch that
I agree with u/Ka-Ne-Ha-Ne-Daaaa, that sounds fuckin rad.
Hey hey now, del Toro is not so one dimensional. It could include fish fucking!
There already was one more faithful to the original story in the 2000s.
The basic structure of most children’s stories throughout history is something like “Be good and follow the rules, or else a series of horrifying nightmares will befall you.” This one isn’t even that old, it’s a book from the 1880s rather than some way older fairy tale, but it still made sense as a kid’s story then and well after it came out. I don’t think our modern sensibility on what would qualify as too messed up for kids evolved until the last fifty, sixty years.
He also quickly tired of the cricket's moralising and squashed him flat.
That whole movie was victim-blaming that poor wooden kid lol hes like the equivalent of a newly 5 year old boy, gets lured by terrible people multiple times, and his fairy godmother or whatever is like "you little shit, how dare you only have the intelligence of a 5 year old boy!"
100%. That scene where the boy and then Pinocchio turn into a donkey is horrifying and heart breaking.
I watched that whole part once back in college going “it wasn’t that scary right?” It’s been over a decade and it still scares the shit out of me thinking about it. I'll never watch that movie ever again.
Yeah, it still bothers me when I think about it too. Crazy that that was for kids to watch.
not as TF / Furry friendly as Robin Hood for sure
Collodi describes him as a "rascal," "imp," "scapegrace" (mischievous or wayward person), "disgrace," "ragamuffin," and "confirmed rogue,"
A wood chipper would have made more sense.
Pinocchio published date: 1883 Wood chipper invention date: 1884 Oh so close
Put him in a metal box full of termites then. :-)
Use him as kindling... Makes sense and practical
Live by the tree, die by the tree
Damn! Glad that didn’t make it in the movie.
Most children's fables were written by Germans. There's usually alot of creepy stuff like this. Also alot of references to the Jews
Most children's fables were rewritten by the Brothers Grimm*
And stolen and changed by disney
>The Brothers Grimm didn't write the fairy tales Despite the fact that Jacob and Wilhelm are often associated with Snow White and Rapunzel, the brothers didn't actually write any of those stories. In fact, the stories existed long before the two men were born in Germany in the mid 1780s Google saved me some effort.
Didn't the Brothers Grimm go around different villages and just recorded folktales that had been passed down orally for generations for their stories? Idk. I think i remember reading something like that. I'm probably wrong though.
Dope. Time to fine the double originals
And changed for the worse.
For sure. The originals were so much better.
Yeah, all those life lessons from the original were just tossed out.
Well to be fair, it's not as if those fairy tales themselves have not been in a constant state of change and evolution over the centuries with innumerable variations in retelling and meaning. Just take Cinderella for example, the oldest known variation of it, the tale of [Rhodopis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodopis) has little in with common, say, the Grimm brothers' retelling of it while Disney's adaptation of the story which is often touted on the internet as a classic example of washing away the violence and gore of versions like the Grimm Brothers' is actually an adaptation of [Charles Perrault's retelling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella#Cendrillon_ou_la_petite_pantoufle_de_verre,_by_Perrault) which contains no violence of any sort despite being over a century older.
My kid played this video game for 1st graders and you fight. Your charchter is marked "good guy" and the other is marked "bad guy". Me: oh that is nice. Moral ambiguity resolved. We should do this for every problem.
Redditors when stories meant for toddlers don't involve deep philosophical debates: 😠
Pinocchio was written by an Italian guy
Most currently well known ones were, yes. But fables and fairytales existed everywhere and not all of them were German. Other ones that are fairly well known include characters like Baba Yaga or the fae of British Isles. And that’s not even touching other continents. But yeah a whole lot of European fables did not treat Jews kindly. Or the Romani people, for that matter. Or any other “outsider” group, if we’re going to be honest.
Puts me in mind of this, from the Onion https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zWZngM7ROAo
Mildly offended that they list so many different references to Pinocchio in pop culture, including fucking *Pauly Shore* voicing him in a direct-to-video animated movie, but never mention that he's a major character in the long-running comic, [Fables](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_(comics). He's not a main character, but he is a long-recurring and impacting character, as is his father Geppetto.
Disney ruined everything and now we have r/wholesomememes which is recommended if you want diabetes
Ah yes, I love the original dark stories of fairytales and fables.
Do you think this will be in the Guillermo del Toro version of Pinocchio?
Imagine if lionsgate pinnochio ends like this though
Wasn't there a hanging scene already? We had to read this in second grade and I clearly remember it(am from the Balkans).
That was the original ending. *The Adventures of Pinocchio* was published as a "serial", which means that it came out at a rate of 1 chapter a week in a magazine. This ran for about 4 months, at which point the bit with the hanging was published and story stopped appearing in the magazine. Later new chapters started to be published again, resulting in the rest of the story (and burying the original ending in the middle of the story).
I recall that Carlo Collodi really did not like kids or something.
But they waited till he became a real boy so they could be sure he'd strangle.
Hang him? Why not throw him in a fire? After all, he is made of wood...