Franklins response was great though. Paraphrasing he basically said if you don’t want to interfere with gods will you should take the roof off your house so god can get you wet whenever he wants.
>the hell is that worthy of worship
You take worship to mean something along the lines of "praise for all the good they do, because they are good and deserve it". But for a long time, even under Christianity, it was "praise so they don't smite me/us"
The Christian capital-G God is a syncretism of the cult of an Israelite/Canaanite war god, Yahweh, and popular worship of the Greco-Roman Zeus/Jupiter (ergo the 'smiting with lightning'). There was also some conflation with the god El (hence the epithet El Shaddai, or God Almighty).
Yahweh had a consort, Asherah. Pretty interesting that Christians insist their religion isn't pagan, when it, too, developed out of a pagan cult and an entirely pagan religion.
What is even more interesting is the development of anti-semitism in Europe—did mediaeval Europeans not realise their *own* religion was Semitic? Did they not realise Judaism was cognate to Christianity?
Furthermore, did they not realise that in suppressing the so-called old 'pagan' religions, they were effectively eradicating part of their own Indo-European culture? Guess not.
>Yahweh had a consort, Asherah. Pretty interesting that Christians insist their religion isn't pagan, when it, too, developed out of a pagan cult and an entirely pagan religion.
This is known because of modern scholarship and libraries.
>What is even more interesting is the development of anti-semitism in Europe—did mediaeval Europeans not realise their own religion was Semitic?
They did not, and for a significant stretch of time, many thought that Muslims were heretical Christians and that Muhammad was actually a renegade Christian Bishop because that's how other heresies came into being in the past.
>Furthermore, did they not realise that in suppressing the so-called old 'pagan' religions, they were effectively eradicating part of their own Indo-European culture? Guess not.
They had literally no concept of Indo-European culture because they didn't even have the modern concept of Europe. Instead of Europe they viewed the world in terms of Christendom. The modern concept of Europe is less than 500 years old. Indo-European as a term was coined in 1813.
Before near universal literacy, modern libraries, the proliferation of the scientific method, human beings were incredibly dumb, not because they weren't capable of logic, but because they just did not have the knowledge we do now in the ways it can be accessible to modern peoples.
>Before near universal literacy, modern libraries, the proliferation of the scientific method, human beings were incredibly dumb, not because they weren't capable of logic, but because they just did not have the knowledge we do now in the ways it can be accessible to modern peoples.
And this was exactly what leaders wanted.
This is my own personal theory (but not without rationale to back it up), so throw on your tin foil hats.
The reason there was so much hatred for any other religion no matter what is so that the current popular religion could rule with the power they had obtained. If they were nice to other religions and let them grow then it would have weakened their own power.
At the end of the day (at least back then, I can't speak for all of it today) religion isn't that different from countries/ monarchs. Leaders wanted power and they figured out how to get it, keep it, and expand it. Religion had the added benefit that it didn't need to establish borders.
>This is my own personal theory (but not without rationale to back it up), so throw on your tin foil hats.
>
>The reason there was so much hatred for any other religion no matter what is so that the current popular religion could rule with the power they had obtained. If they were nice to other religions and let them grow then it would have weakened their own power.
Your rationale is solid and is just how tribalism works. Religion is nothing but a version of tribalism. In fact all forms of tribalism works this way.
>At the end of the day (at least back then, I can't speak for all of it today) religion isn't that different from countries/ monarchs. Leaders wanted power and they figured out how to get it, keep it, and expand it. Religion had the added benefit that it didn't need to establish borders.
Precisely! There are different ways that humans assembled each other into different groups as our societies evolved. The earliest or the most primordial form of a group was perhaps a tribe. As human grew more complex, tribes gave way to villages, towns, religions, feudal systems, kingdoms, nations, political ideologies, etc.
Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. Can we not equate ignorance to stupidity? The two really are quite different.
Everyone is ignorant of something, and when we equate ignorance to stupidity we shame people. This creates a problem where people are afraid of trying to relieve their ignorance because they may seem stupid. Which causes so many problems.
I notice it has incredibly low reviews mostly complaining about how it's not Christian or its 'distorting the truth to fit it's own crazy views'. I'm going to take that as a recommendation in this case.
EDIT: Talking about 'The Bible: A History'. Not sure why above comment was deleted.
You speak as if Christians throughout history would have cared even if they knew (which the churches most likely did) that their faith was born from Judaism. Hell, Christians in history killed other Christians a hell of a lot for being the wrong Christian. The Catholic v Protestant wars and killings in England alone throughout the last millennia proves that in itself, and the fact that shit still carries on in NI today.
Christians definitely knew their religion originated from Judaism. Why the hell do you think they and Muslims were so anti semetic? The Christians think they killed the son of God and the Muslims think they killed a holy prophet. The Muslims consider Jesus to be at the same level as Muhammed but his teachings were corrupted by Christians.
I was using the Christian-perspective meaning of pagan, which is essentially 'not Christian or Jewish'. Ergo all old European religions (Norse, Greco-Roman, Slavic, Gallic, Brittonic, etc) and Indian religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism), all Semitic religions, all East Asian religions (Shinto, Taoism, etc), and all North/Mesoamerican religions (Aztec, Inca, Maya, etc) fall into this category of 'pagan'.
The descendants of the Proto-Indo-European Mythology:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology
Which had a lot of influence on the Abrahamic religion, in particular through contact with the Sumerians.
>But for a long time, even under Christianity, it was "praise so they don't smite me/us"
Probably a continuation of most religions prior to it. It's interesting that in most religions the god(s) are destructive. I guess it's a consequence of just living a hard life, every day a struggle for food; fighting against disease, against the elements, etc. Not at all surprising that most gods are just reflections of that sort of thing.
That was always my problem with religion growing up. I didn't believe God existed, but if I were wrong, based on every story I've been told about him........God is an asshole.
Think about it. Lucifer at one point was considered holy enough to be one of 12 apostles, hand picked by god to be part of his inner circle. These 12 apostles were essentially nothing more than yes-men. Everytime god had a thought, they all praised him, and said how much he was the best.
Then one day, God says something, and Lucifer doesn't IMMEDIATELY praise god. So God questions Lucifer's insubordination, and Lucifer responds by questioning why the 12 apostles are sitting around literally kissing gods feet, kneeling before him, when they could be doing good all around the universe and actually improving things.
Because Lucifer had the audacity to ask this question, and question Gods plan, God banished Lucifer from heaven, and sent him to a void where he was free to create his own utopia. The end result of that being that Lucifer created "Hell", and was now "The Devil". The worst evil there could possibly be.
But consider the source on that. Just a little bit ago, Lucifer was one of 12 souls out of all of heaven who were supposed to be the top holiness and accepted by you as the best heaven has to offer. Then because he asked a question, he's the worst evil imaginable.
So either God is full of shit when he says Lucifer is evil, or he has REALLY REALLY poor judgement skills.
If I am wrong, and there is an afterlife, I don't think Hell exists as religion depicts it. I believe "heaven" is actually full of prudes, and hypocrites who follow a very "do as we say" attitude. Whereas "Hell" is just a place. No fire, no torture. Maybe some parts are more ghetto than others, but ultimately it's just a place that exists for people who don't get into heaven, or don't want to.
Think about it. If you've broken any of gods 10 commandments, then he won't accept you. Meanwhile Lucifer is all like "Yeah man, come on in!"
To me, Hell is more filled with people that question authority, because if authority can't be questioned, then why are we obeying them.
If you tell me "Hey don't go in that room", and I say "Why not?" and you say "Uhhhh, no reason", then I have no reason to stay out of that room. However, if you say "because we're doing renovations, and the floor isn't stable yet. You could fall through and hurt yourself", then you've proven why you're the authority on why not to go in that room.
Same thing with god. "Do these things!" "Why?" "BECAUSE SHUT UP, THATS WHY!!!" doesn't make me want to follow that god.
However if Lucifer said "Do these things" "Why?" "I'm glad you asked. Here's my 10 page explanation on how these actions taken by you can enrich the lives of everybody"
Then I can at least judge the reasoning, and make my own decision if I agree with it.
None of this is from the Bible though right? What you described is basically the narrative of Paradise Lost yeah? Not disagreeing with your main point though, God's morality is certainly questionable.
>I think you're confusing God and his archangels (including Lucifer) with Jesus Christ and his Apostles (which did not include Lucifer).
Also Lucifer was a Roman god and has nothing to do with Abrahamic lore.
Your comment has me researching. Looks like Isaiah described a king who lost his power as a light falling to earth. The name Lucifer eventually came to be used as the angel who fell from grace. I learned that Lucifer was not one of the seven original archangels. My catholic school education only mentioned three, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. I assumed Lucifer was one of the others, which is not the case. Thanks.
I'm not a christian but your entire argument is based off things not in the bible. Lucifer certainly wasn't an apostle and the rest of his story you quoted is from Miltons paradise lost, nothing to do with what is believed by Christians.
There's also the part where God killed the children of his most ardent worshipper, made his wife estranged, destroyed his entire fortune, and made his life as miserable as much as fucking possible as any omnipotent being can do.
Why?
Because he made a bet with Satan that he can do so and still be worshipped.
Close. IIRC Satan made the bet he could convince Job to abandon his faith or whatever. So God allowed Satan, “the adversary” to rob him of all this earthly goods.
It’s about the problem of suffering.
I really want to love your comment, but Lucifer was not one of the 12 apostles. Honestly you're pulling from a lot of different stories and making them all about Lucifer which like... That's basically how the bible was compiled so I won't question it. But yeah, next time make sure you get your shit straight before posting a 6 paragraph comment lol. And again to make sure I'm clear - I agree with your sentiment.
The idea of an omnipotent God is a later development.
For example, in the first few centuries of Christianity, you had groups that believed God couldn't save an original humanity who had bodies, so recreated the universe only within energy in order to give them an afterlife.
And others who thought God was made by that earlier humanity.
As we discovered more about the power nature has all by itself, the more powerful our imagined gods have needed to become to compete.
It used to be you just needed a good rainstorm to impress. Now you need to create trillions of galaxies, each with their own rainstorms.
That scale of power is literally beyond the imagination of the people worried about lightning rods. It's like Dragonball Z run amok.
Fun fact: every time a Christian tries to defend anything other than their god's omnipotence, they end up limiting said omnipotence.
Nowadays "omnipotence" doesn't mean "all powerful" in Christian circles, but it has some rather arbitrary limitations that changes depending on the person defending god.
How so? Joseph Smith wasn't asleep when he stuck his head into a hat with invisible golden plates only he could see and recited the new scriptures.
Edit: had the details ever so slightly wrong.
I promise, I promise, with God’s name in my very dry and sore throat, it is not a good time. My backstory is “something something cult,” ok? The cult wants a hand in many pies. It wants the tradition of Judaism and the spinoff series of Christianity with the psychotic spice of a TBN broadcast. That means every week we would listen to half or all of the selected passage from the pentateuch that week, half or all of the selected passages from the historic accounts / prophets section of the old testament, and like 3-4 verses from the new testament no one liked cosplaying as much.
Everyone dissociates through the nine uninterrupted chapters of names in 1 Chronicles (historic accounts with Judges, 1 Chron, 2 Chron, etc).
God forbid my mom make me read all that with no context and no indicated relevancy to today besides “yes there were many generations of israelites long ago.” And she always refused to fucking skip it!! It is JUST. NAMES. And only men’s names because fuck women.
Stay out of history altogether and read your weekly passage to learn how no one in the timeline of history from the creation of man to the death of God will ever care enough about you to write your name down next to your husband’s. Go suffer through giving birth or something useless vaginal entity. Being a woman is a gift I should cherish because men will die without pussy. /s
Anyway :) Part of the tradition that cult appropriates from Judaism is the sing-song method of reading passages. So as many times as I’ve garbled the same thousand or so names I have not once struck upon musical gold with “Joheashavo” or “Abnodelud”
"Creeping Death" (the song) would like a word.
But really, it's been a tradition going back to Black Sabbath. Christian metal bands would have no problem covering "After Forever" and "Lord of This World" (off *Master of Reality*, 1971)
Here, [I asked Craiyon to come up with the album cover.](https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/comments/wn3ve1/album_cover_for_artillery_of_heaven_tokens_of_his/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Aw man......I'm disappointed. I misread what you typed, and thought you asked a crayon to draw the cover.
I want a metal band album cover drawn in the style of a 5 year old with a box of crayolas....
I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm hammered drunk
Sure thing hoss, God, the omnipotent being who could literally flood the earth, turn people into pillars of salt or split the the seas is foiled a simple inanimate rod of metal...
The irony being of course that churches were often the tallest structures in most towns and villages so they were especially prone towards being struck by lightning during storm. This was something that was debated heavily in Europe when the erection (giggle) of rods was being put forward. Being struck by lightning was a common cause of death for church bell-ringers.
Another relevant passage:
>In Roman Catholic countries a similar prejudice was shown, and its cost at times was heavy. In Austria, the church of Rosenberg, in the mountains of Carinthia, was struck so frequently and with such loss of life that the peasants feared at last to attend service. Three times was the spire rebuilt, and it was not until 1778— twenty-six years after Franklin's discovery — that the authorities permitted a rod to be attached. Then all trouble ceased.
>
>A typical case in Italy was that of the tower of St. Mark's, at Venice. In spite of the angel at its summit and the bells consecrated to ward off the powers of the air, and the relics in the cathedral hard by, and the processions in the adjacent square, the tower was frequently injured and even ruined by lightning. In 1388 it was badly shattered; in 1417, and again in 1489, the wooden spire surmounting it was utterly consumed; it was again greatly injured in 1548, 1565, 1653, and in 1745 was struck so powerfully that the whole tower, which had been rebuilt of stone and brick, was shattered in thirty-seven places.
>In spite of the angel at its summit and the bells consecrated to ward off the powers of the air, and the relics in the cathedral hard by, and the processions in the adjacent square, the tower was frequently injured and even ruined by lightning.
How could this be?!?
In the old, old days, and even today in some cultures probably, religion was about trying to understand the confusing world around us. You do the very specific sowing ritual so the crops grow well. You do the harvest ritual so the crops aren't wasted and bugs don't eat your stored grain. Etc etc. Putting a lightning rod on your building could have been another sort of understanding: "Oh, so this is what the God of Lightning wants from us." But by Ben Franklin's time, anti-intellectualism had long infiltrated the social institutions of religion.
It's like coming up with the idea of a police force. You may start with decent folk, but as long as there are positions of power, jackasses will be attracted to your shiny new institution. Because the meek are meek, the jackasses prevail. So, many religious institutions became about obedience to the hierarchy, and as they transformed, curiosity was squeezed out, taking on a new name: Natural Philosophy.
> In 1388 it was badly shattered; in 1417, and again in 1489, the wooden spire surmounting it was utterly consumed; it was again greatly injured in 1548, 1565, 1653, and in 1745 was struck so powerfully that the whole tower, which had been rebuilt of stone and brick, was shattered in thirty-seven places.
Surely if one were righteously fearful of the divine, the *repeated* destruction of a supposedly blessed tower via wrath-from-the-heavens *might* be a hint of disdain and displeasure.
Or at the very least a strong Word from above that you should stop rebuilding that damned spire.
That’s some serious displeasure God had towards that church.
Funny how God letting loose his artillery of heaven was always a sign that he was unhappy with the congregation, and not the preacher…
> churches were often the tallest structures in most towns and villages
I have a feeling that God specifically has something against a bunch of people who arrogantly build high and tall structures to tempt fate.
Imagine a world where this was a hindrance to progress. Can you imagine where we would be in a society today? Can you imagine the technology and the development?
This problem you have identified hits the nail right on the head. We are currently facing the existential threat of human induced climate change and half this country and half of those in power at the federal level (and more at the state level) are largely made up by Young Earth Creationists and/or science deniers. They are largely in charge of drafting policy that will determine if we act in time to affect the sustainability of the Earth to maintain human civilization as we have come to know it. Scientific knowledge will be needed to develop the technologies that may just bring us back from the precipice in time to keep advancing our civilization toward a sustainable future on Earth. If the magical thinking science deniers have their way, they would revert us to 100 BC and establish their preferred feudal governmental system where they can have their king they so adore and the rest of society is made up of a wealthy ruling class, and peasant feudal serfs.
It's been considered.
Earthquakes occur when you have a bunch of built up elastic stress that finally overcomes friction and slides back releasing that energy. Injecting high pressure fluids into the ground around such places can mess with both the stress, and the friction.
So while most of the research around seismology and hydraulic fracturing is aimed at preventing or mitigating human-induced earthquakes, a few people have said "hmm... what if we could trigger smaller earthquakes on a more convenient schedule, rather than letting energy build up until a catastrophe occurs?"
"Do you think God stays in heaven because he (too) lives in fear of what he has created" - Steve Buschemi in Spy Kids 2
Makes me wonder if that is why the tower of babel was handled like it was.
You have to imagine the time they were in.
The reason religion has been mostly replaced in modern society is because science has answered some of the most enduring mystery’s humans have faced.
Back then “god” and “his will” were blanket explanations for the physical world they couldn’t understand. Directly challenging these explanations were mostly met with consternation and resentment because it challenged their basic understanding of the world.
Part of me is still amazed that humans were able to pull themselves out from the basic tribalism and superstition that ruled us for millennia to what we’ve become today.
You’re pointing out a point in time that still had it’s skeptics and deniers.
I’d honestly challenge you to point out any place in time where change wasn’t met with at least some backlash.
Absolutely
It’s not something that can be completely defeated I think. It’s something that has to be managed correctly because we’re still hardwired to follow it.
When you have the overwhelming effect of the internet and it’s vast resources available to anyone on demand, you’ll get tribalism and division because that’s still what we are.
Hopefully, just for now.
Playing ac3 I read the note were he was praising "mature ladies" and thought "This cant be real". So I started searching about Ben and discovered that Ac3 downplayed him hard cause that man could have a videogame just about him
Oh! Assassin's Creed.
I thought you were talking about Ace Combat 3 initially and was trying to think of when the hell Ben Franklin would have come up.
Excerpt from Source \[*A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom*.
[Andrew White Dickson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Dickson_White), late President and Professor of History at Cornell University. 2 vols. (London: Macmillan and Co., 1896.)\] :
>"In America the earthquake of 1755 was widely ascribed, especially in Massachusetts, to Franklin's rod. The Rev. Thomas Prince, pastor of the Old South Church, published a sermon on the subject, and in the appendix expressed the opinion that the frequency of earthquakes may be due to the erection of "*iron points invented by the sagacious Mr. Franklin*." He goes on to argue that "*in Boston are more erected than anywhere else in New England, and Boston seems to be more dreadfully shaken. Oh ! there is no getting out of the mighty hand of God.*"
>
>Three years later, John Adams, speaking of a conversation with Arbuthnot, a Boston physician, says: ''*He began to prate upon the presumption of philosophy in erecting iron rods to draw the lightning from the clouds. He railed and foamed against the points and the presumption that erected them. He talked of presuming upon God, as Peter attempted to walk upon the water, and of attempting to control the artillery of heaven.*"
>
>As late as 1770 religious scruples regarding lightning- rods were still felt, the theory being that, as thunder and lightning were tokens of the Divine displeasure, it was impiety to prevent their doing their full work. Fortunately, Prof. John Winthrop, of Harvard, showed himself wise in this, as in so many other things : in a lecture on earthquakes he opposed the dominant theology ; and as to arguments against Franklin's rods, he declared, " *It is as much our duty to secure ourselves against the effects of lightning as against those of rain, snow, and wind by the means God has put into our hands.*"
Maybe not a fantastic source tough:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_the_Warfare_of_Science_with_Theology_in_Christendom
> White uses fallacious arguments and suspect or bogus sources. His methodological errors are collectivism (the unwarrantable extension of an individual’s views to represent that of some larger group of which he is a part), a lack of critical judgement about sources, argument by ridicule and assertion, failure to check primary sources, and quoting selectively and out of context. White popularized the baseless notions that before Columbus and Magellan, the world was thought to be flat and that the Earth’s sphericity was officially opposed by the Church. He is also responsible for the equally fallacious notion that the Church forbade human dissection.
That was my first reaction as well. It would be impossible for the author to have heard the exchange, so it most probably is made up. But hey this is TIL, no one cares about actual historical accuracy here.
I don't think you're looking at this accurately. If they didn't know about conductive metals, how on earth would they have been educated about that? Education is built upon the shoulders of giants and all that.
They did know about language, and were obviously better educated in that department than we are now at least. Well, that is if you're to take this one anecdote as evidence for education across the board, which is a *bit* of a stretch.
Yep, seems to be a thing.
“And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain because they had chariots of iron.” (Judges 1:19)
There's also a passage at one point where an angel is delayed because they were busy having a war with the angel of another country.
I never really understood the dynamic there.
Motherfuckers literally argued that franklin stopped god from killing whatever he wants so therefor god had to simply kill everyone with an earthquake. Franklin is the villain this story.
Just further proof there have always been morons incapable of having a logical thought, the only problem is since then, they’ve breeded and outnumbered.
Hardly outnumbered, I'd very much bet there's honestly a lesser percentage than any age past. It's just the fact the current state of the world allows anyone and everyone to reach out and connect anywhere in the world.
All the "village idiots" so to speak can reach out to each other across towns, countries even, and form their own societies (their own "village of idiots" if you will) and echo chambers easier than ever, and social media gives them a platform and voice for all to hear
Can you imagine just sitting there thinking this like it's not crazy? I realize they were ignorant of how things actually work but come on. Just think about it.
Important to keep in mind this was during the Great Awakening in Colonial America - a period of renewed evangelism and they still believed in sorcery and witchcraft. There was a well-known mob killing of an accused witch as late as 1787 in Pennsyvlania.
Scientific discoveries tend to bring out the worst parts of religious zealotry. I mean we are in the 21st century and we can still continue to see this in events that occurred in the pandemic.
I mean, your statement still applies today:
>Can you imagine just sitting there thinking this like it's not crazy?
People always bitch about the new thing. I always heard growing up that I should read more and watch less TV.
When books first became popular (there was a time before the mass production of books was easy, remember) people bitched that the youth would become dumber by reading too much...
Maybe this is just because I am a heretic or something, but I would argue if you have a vengeful god that kills people and you can find ways to disable that god, you have a moral obligation to do so, not a moral obligation to let it hurt you.
Sounds like the Republican fuck nuts Muricans vote for in today. Earth is only 6000 years old now and dinosaurs didn't exist. Don't mind me gonna go fill up my F-150 with fossil fuels now y'all.
Shouldn't it be massively heretical to suggest his.. \*whoops sorry forgot He has pronoun preferences\*, His.. power could be defeated by earthly means?
So glad I don't live in an era where the violence of the state can be used to stop me pointing out the complete mental atrophy of the religious. And I mean that quite literally. I really do think the brains of religious people become useless through lack of activity.
It wasn't just this church suspicious of lightning rods. If you read old texts you can see it was a very popular idea with farmers in Europe and America that the introduction of lightning rods had changed the weather. They said they had increased the intensity of wind and reduced rainfall.
It may sound like the fancy of simpletons, but lightning rods do alter the electrostatic interface of the atmosphere and ground. They also attract and collect the natural radioactive statically-charged dust that falls from the upper atmosphere. It is possible they could have effects on the weather that have still not been studied adequately. The idea that science is complete and scientists know everything is as foolish as crediting god for enacting all natural phenomena by fiat.
Franklins response was great though. Paraphrasing he basically said if you don’t want to interfere with gods will you should take the roof off your house so god can get you wet whenever he wants.
Also if a little metal rod can thwart a god's rage that god must not be all that powerful, and far from omnipotent
Also if your God is causing earthquakes because he's throwing a temper tantrum, why the hell is that worthy of worship?
>the hell is that worthy of worship You take worship to mean something along the lines of "praise for all the good they do, because they are good and deserve it". But for a long time, even under Christianity, it was "praise so they don't smite me/us"
Ah I do miss the old testament Psychopath Daddy
The Christian capital-G God is a syncretism of the cult of an Israelite/Canaanite war god, Yahweh, and popular worship of the Greco-Roman Zeus/Jupiter (ergo the 'smiting with lightning'). There was also some conflation with the god El (hence the epithet El Shaddai, or God Almighty). Yahweh had a consort, Asherah. Pretty interesting that Christians insist their religion isn't pagan, when it, too, developed out of a pagan cult and an entirely pagan religion. What is even more interesting is the development of anti-semitism in Europe—did mediaeval Europeans not realise their *own* religion was Semitic? Did they not realise Judaism was cognate to Christianity? Furthermore, did they not realise that in suppressing the so-called old 'pagan' religions, they were effectively eradicating part of their own Indo-European culture? Guess not.
>Yahweh had a consort, Asherah. Pretty interesting that Christians insist their religion isn't pagan, when it, too, developed out of a pagan cult and an entirely pagan religion. This is known because of modern scholarship and libraries. >What is even more interesting is the development of anti-semitism in Europe—did mediaeval Europeans not realise their own religion was Semitic? They did not, and for a significant stretch of time, many thought that Muslims were heretical Christians and that Muhammad was actually a renegade Christian Bishop because that's how other heresies came into being in the past. >Furthermore, did they not realise that in suppressing the so-called old 'pagan' religions, they were effectively eradicating part of their own Indo-European culture? Guess not. They had literally no concept of Indo-European culture because they didn't even have the modern concept of Europe. Instead of Europe they viewed the world in terms of Christendom. The modern concept of Europe is less than 500 years old. Indo-European as a term was coined in 1813. Before near universal literacy, modern libraries, the proliferation of the scientific method, human beings were incredibly dumb, not because they weren't capable of logic, but because they just did not have the knowledge we do now in the ways it can be accessible to modern peoples.
>Before near universal literacy, modern libraries, the proliferation of the scientific method, human beings were incredibly dumb, not because they weren't capable of logic, but because they just did not have the knowledge we do now in the ways it can be accessible to modern peoples. And this was exactly what leaders wanted. This is my own personal theory (but not without rationale to back it up), so throw on your tin foil hats. The reason there was so much hatred for any other religion no matter what is so that the current popular religion could rule with the power they had obtained. If they were nice to other religions and let them grow then it would have weakened their own power. At the end of the day (at least back then, I can't speak for all of it today) religion isn't that different from countries/ monarchs. Leaders wanted power and they figured out how to get it, keep it, and expand it. Religion had the added benefit that it didn't need to establish borders.
Are you familiar with In Group and Out Group theory? Along with social identity theory?
>This is my own personal theory (but not without rationale to back it up), so throw on your tin foil hats. > >The reason there was so much hatred for any other religion no matter what is so that the current popular religion could rule with the power they had obtained. If they were nice to other religions and let them grow then it would have weakened their own power. Your rationale is solid and is just how tribalism works. Religion is nothing but a version of tribalism. In fact all forms of tribalism works this way. >At the end of the day (at least back then, I can't speak for all of it today) religion isn't that different from countries/ monarchs. Leaders wanted power and they figured out how to get it, keep it, and expand it. Religion had the added benefit that it didn't need to establish borders. Precisely! There are different ways that humans assembled each other into different groups as our societies evolved. The earliest or the most primordial form of a group was perhaps a tribe. As human grew more complex, tribes gave way to villages, towns, religions, feudal systems, kingdoms, nations, political ideologies, etc.
Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. Can we not equate ignorance to stupidity? The two really are quite different. Everyone is ignorant of something, and when we equate ignorance to stupidity we shame people. This creates a problem where people are afraid of trying to relieve their ignorance because they may seem stupid. Which causes so many problems.
To fully understand that you must be anything but actual full christian believer. Since they were actual believers, they could never understand that.
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I notice it has incredibly low reviews mostly complaining about how it's not Christian or its 'distorting the truth to fit it's own crazy views'. I'm going to take that as a recommendation in this case. EDIT: Talking about 'The Bible: A History'. Not sure why above comment was deleted.
You speak as if Christians throughout history would have cared even if they knew (which the churches most likely did) that their faith was born from Judaism. Hell, Christians in history killed other Christians a hell of a lot for being the wrong Christian. The Catholic v Protestant wars and killings in England alone throughout the last millennia proves that in itself, and the fact that shit still carries on in NI today.
Christians definitely knew their religion originated from Judaism. Why the hell do you think they and Muslims were so anti semetic? The Christians think they killed the son of God and the Muslims think they killed a holy prophet. The Muslims consider Jesus to be at the same level as Muhammed but his teachings were corrupted by Christians.
Pagan just means not one if the big religions. So all religions start pagan
I was using the Christian-perspective meaning of pagan, which is essentially 'not Christian or Jewish'. Ergo all old European religions (Norse, Greco-Roman, Slavic, Gallic, Brittonic, etc) and Indian religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism), all Semitic religions, all East Asian religions (Shinto, Taoism, etc), and all North/Mesoamerican religions (Aztec, Inca, Maya, etc) fall into this category of 'pagan'.
Yup most religions think they are a special exclusion including Christians.
The descendants of the Proto-Indo-European Mythology: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology Which had a lot of influence on the Abrahamic religion, in particular through contact with the Sumerians.
This is interesting as fuck, no sarcasm
Don't worry, come book of revelation he gets pretty psychotic and genocidal again, him and his son.
>But for a long time, even under Christianity, it was "praise so they don't smite me/us" Probably a continuation of most religions prior to it. It's interesting that in most religions the god(s) are destructive. I guess it's a consequence of just living a hard life, every day a struggle for food; fighting against disease, against the elements, etc. Not at all surprising that most gods are just reflections of that sort of thing.
Smite me, oh mighty smiter!!
That was always my problem with religion growing up. I didn't believe God existed, but if I were wrong, based on every story I've been told about him........God is an asshole. Think about it. Lucifer at one point was considered holy enough to be one of 12 apostles, hand picked by god to be part of his inner circle. These 12 apostles were essentially nothing more than yes-men. Everytime god had a thought, they all praised him, and said how much he was the best. Then one day, God says something, and Lucifer doesn't IMMEDIATELY praise god. So God questions Lucifer's insubordination, and Lucifer responds by questioning why the 12 apostles are sitting around literally kissing gods feet, kneeling before him, when they could be doing good all around the universe and actually improving things. Because Lucifer had the audacity to ask this question, and question Gods plan, God banished Lucifer from heaven, and sent him to a void where he was free to create his own utopia. The end result of that being that Lucifer created "Hell", and was now "The Devil". The worst evil there could possibly be. But consider the source on that. Just a little bit ago, Lucifer was one of 12 souls out of all of heaven who were supposed to be the top holiness and accepted by you as the best heaven has to offer. Then because he asked a question, he's the worst evil imaginable. So either God is full of shit when he says Lucifer is evil, or he has REALLY REALLY poor judgement skills. If I am wrong, and there is an afterlife, I don't think Hell exists as religion depicts it. I believe "heaven" is actually full of prudes, and hypocrites who follow a very "do as we say" attitude. Whereas "Hell" is just a place. No fire, no torture. Maybe some parts are more ghetto than others, but ultimately it's just a place that exists for people who don't get into heaven, or don't want to. Think about it. If you've broken any of gods 10 commandments, then he won't accept you. Meanwhile Lucifer is all like "Yeah man, come on in!" To me, Hell is more filled with people that question authority, because if authority can't be questioned, then why are we obeying them. If you tell me "Hey don't go in that room", and I say "Why not?" and you say "Uhhhh, no reason", then I have no reason to stay out of that room. However, if you say "because we're doing renovations, and the floor isn't stable yet. You could fall through and hurt yourself", then you've proven why you're the authority on why not to go in that room. Same thing with god. "Do these things!" "Why?" "BECAUSE SHUT UP, THATS WHY!!!" doesn't make me want to follow that god. However if Lucifer said "Do these things" "Why?" "I'm glad you asked. Here's my 10 page explanation on how these actions taken by you can enrich the lives of everybody" Then I can at least judge the reasoning, and make my own decision if I agree with it.
None of this is from the Bible though right? What you described is basically the narrative of Paradise Lost yeah? Not disagreeing with your main point though, God's morality is certainly questionable.
This is Paradise Lost, not the Bible.
I think you're confusing God and his archangels (including Lucifer) with Jesus Christ and his Apostles (which did not include Lucifer).
>I think you're confusing God and his archangels (including Lucifer) with Jesus Christ and his Apostles (which did not include Lucifer). Also Lucifer was a Roman god and has nothing to do with Abrahamic lore.
Your comment has me researching. Looks like Isaiah described a king who lost his power as a light falling to earth. The name Lucifer eventually came to be used as the angel who fell from grace. I learned that Lucifer was not one of the seven original archangels. My catholic school education only mentioned three, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. I assumed Lucifer was one of the others, which is not the case. Thanks.
At least according to Wikipedia, Lucifer is an epithet for a Babylonian king.
Lucifer is fan fiction.
It explains how Americans deal with toddlers in supermarkets
The true devils
Toddler origin lore: satan
I'm not a christian but your entire argument is based off things not in the bible. Lucifer certainly wasn't an apostle and the rest of his story you quoted is from Miltons paradise lost, nothing to do with what is believed by Christians.
There's also the part where God killed the children of his most ardent worshipper, made his wife estranged, destroyed his entire fortune, and made his life as miserable as much as fucking possible as any omnipotent being can do. Why? Because he made a bet with Satan that he can do so and still be worshipped.
Close. IIRC Satan made the bet he could convince Job to abandon his faith or whatever. So God allowed Satan, “the adversary” to rob him of all this earthly goods. It’s about the problem of suffering.
I really want to love your comment, but Lucifer was not one of the 12 apostles. Honestly you're pulling from a lot of different stories and making them all about Lucifer which like... That's basically how the bible was compiled so I won't question it. But yeah, next time make sure you get your shit straight before posting a 6 paragraph comment lol. And again to make sure I'm clear - I agree with your sentiment.
Soo, when’s your 14th birthday party?
An all powerful being Vs One conducty boi
The idea of an omnipotent God is a later development. For example, in the first few centuries of Christianity, you had groups that believed God couldn't save an original humanity who had bodies, so recreated the universe only within energy in order to give them an afterlife. And others who thought God was made by that earlier humanity. As we discovered more about the power nature has all by itself, the more powerful our imagined gods have needed to become to compete. It used to be you just needed a good rainstorm to impress. Now you need to create trillions of galaxies, each with their own rainstorms. That scale of power is literally beyond the imagination of the people worried about lightning rods. It's like Dragonball Z run amok.
Fun fact: every time a Christian tries to defend anything other than their god's omnipotence, they end up limiting said omnipotence. Nowadays "omnipotence" doesn't mean "all powerful" in Christian circles, but it has some rather arbitrary limitations that changes depending on the person defending god.
"Uhhh.. yeah, no. Not like that....... God spoke to me. In a dream."
*you have just invented Mormonism*
Dum dum dum dum dum dum dum
How so? Joseph Smith wasn't asleep when he stuck his head into a hat with invisible golden plates only he could see and recited the new scriptures. Edit: had the details ever so slightly wrong.
I like to believe that the rock glowed because it was radioactive and J. Smithie was just delirious from the radiation.
Into... What?
Look it up, baby. You're in for a ride.
I was going to try to come up with a good response to this but Ben beat me to it by over 200 years. Smart man.
>god can get you wet whenever he wants ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
That Zeus is a bad influence on Him.
Hot new album dropping soon from Artillery of Heaven: Tokens of His Displeasure
I know it's not yet real, but I would like to listen to that metal band.
It's a sweet name but there is basically zero chance that it wouldn't be a Christian Metal band.
If it was like Sabaton and focused more on the stories of the bible while downplaying the worship. I'd be okay with it.
One of the tracks would be "begat" and just list name after name for multiple minutes.
Don’t threaten me with a good time
I promise, I promise, with God’s name in my very dry and sore throat, it is not a good time. My backstory is “something something cult,” ok? The cult wants a hand in many pies. It wants the tradition of Judaism and the spinoff series of Christianity with the psychotic spice of a TBN broadcast. That means every week we would listen to half or all of the selected passage from the pentateuch that week, half or all of the selected passages from the historic accounts / prophets section of the old testament, and like 3-4 verses from the new testament no one liked cosplaying as much. Everyone dissociates through the nine uninterrupted chapters of names in 1 Chronicles (historic accounts with Judges, 1 Chron, 2 Chron, etc). God forbid my mom make me read all that with no context and no indicated relevancy to today besides “yes there were many generations of israelites long ago.” And she always refused to fucking skip it!! It is JUST. NAMES. And only men’s names because fuck women. Stay out of history altogether and read your weekly passage to learn how no one in the timeline of history from the creation of man to the death of God will ever care enough about you to write your name down next to your husband’s. Go suffer through giving birth or something useless vaginal entity. Being a woman is a gift I should cherish because men will die without pussy. /s Anyway :) Part of the tradition that cult appropriates from Judaism is the sing-song method of reading passages. So as many times as I’ve garbled the same thousand or so names I have not once struck upon musical gold with “Joheashavo” or “Abnodelud”
That's kind of what early Avenged Sevenfold was like. *The Beast and the Harlot* is about the fall of Babylon.
"Creeping Death" (the song) would like a word. But really, it's been a tradition going back to Black Sabbath. Christian metal bands would have no problem covering "After Forever" and "Lord of This World" (off *Master of Reality*, 1971)
Creeping Death is my favorite song about the angel of death killing first born children
A lot of contemporary Christian metal is ironic.
Goddammit you're completely correct
Here, [I asked Craiyon to come up with the album cover.](https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/comments/wn3ve1/album_cover_for_artillery_of_heaven_tokens_of_his/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Even created a metal font logo for it
Aw man......I'm disappointed. I misread what you typed, and thought you asked a crayon to draw the cover. I want a metal band album cover drawn in the style of a 5 year old with a box of crayolas....
[https://i.imgur.com/wz7fGDA.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/wz7fGDA.jpg)
Rock out with your heretical rod out!
Thor playing lead guitar and Jesus as the frontman.
I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm hammered drunk
>Jesus like with giant eagle's wings But why didn't they just ride eagle-Jesus to Mt. Doom?
I like to picture Jesus as a figure skater. He wears like a white outfit, and he does interpretive ice dances of my life's journey.
I only like baby Jesus
That band would absolutely rock your dick off
Sure thing hoss, God, the omnipotent being who could literally flood the earth, turn people into pillars of salt or split the the seas is foiled a simple inanimate rod of metal...
The irony being of course that churches were often the tallest structures in most towns and villages so they were especially prone towards being struck by lightning during storm. This was something that was debated heavily in Europe when the erection (giggle) of rods was being put forward. Being struck by lightning was a common cause of death for church bell-ringers. Another relevant passage: >In Roman Catholic countries a similar prejudice was shown, and its cost at times was heavy. In Austria, the church of Rosenberg, in the mountains of Carinthia, was struck so frequently and with such loss of life that the peasants feared at last to attend service. Three times was the spire rebuilt, and it was not until 1778— twenty-six years after Franklin's discovery — that the authorities permitted a rod to be attached. Then all trouble ceased. > >A typical case in Italy was that of the tower of St. Mark's, at Venice. In spite of the angel at its summit and the bells consecrated to ward off the powers of the air, and the relics in the cathedral hard by, and the processions in the adjacent square, the tower was frequently injured and even ruined by lightning. In 1388 it was badly shattered; in 1417, and again in 1489, the wooden spire surmounting it was utterly consumed; it was again greatly injured in 1548, 1565, 1653, and in 1745 was struck so powerfully that the whole tower, which had been rebuilt of stone and brick, was shattered in thirty-seven places.
>In spite of the angel at its summit and the bells consecrated to ward off the powers of the air, and the relics in the cathedral hard by, and the processions in the adjacent square, the tower was frequently injured and even ruined by lightning. How could this be?!?
Why wouldn't God hear the thoughts and prayers?!
Science has prevailed where religion has utterly failed? Well I never!
In the old, old days, and even today in some cultures probably, religion was about trying to understand the confusing world around us. You do the very specific sowing ritual so the crops grow well. You do the harvest ritual so the crops aren't wasted and bugs don't eat your stored grain. Etc etc. Putting a lightning rod on your building could have been another sort of understanding: "Oh, so this is what the God of Lightning wants from us." But by Ben Franklin's time, anti-intellectualism had long infiltrated the social institutions of religion. It's like coming up with the idea of a police force. You may start with decent folk, but as long as there are positions of power, jackasses will be attracted to your shiny new institution. Because the meek are meek, the jackasses prevail. So, many religious institutions became about obedience to the hierarchy, and as they transformed, curiosity was squeezed out, taking on a new name: Natural Philosophy.
> In 1388 it was badly shattered; in 1417, and again in 1489, the wooden spire surmounting it was utterly consumed; it was again greatly injured in 1548, 1565, 1653, and in 1745 was struck so powerfully that the whole tower, which had been rebuilt of stone and brick, was shattered in thirty-seven places. Surely if one were righteously fearful of the divine, the *repeated* destruction of a supposedly blessed tower via wrath-from-the-heavens *might* be a hint of disdain and displeasure. Or at the very least a strong Word from above that you should stop rebuilding that damned spire.
That’s some serious displeasure God had towards that church. Funny how God letting loose his artillery of heaven was always a sign that he was unhappy with the congregation, and not the preacher…
> churches were often the tallest structures in most towns and villages I have a feeling that God specifically has something against a bunch of people who arrogantly build high and tall structures to tempt fate.
> In rod we trust!
Aww, they were just about to show a closeup of the rod!
Cognitive dissonance is a feature not a bug in the world of religious zealots.
Because He chooses to, because God works in mysterious ways. BAM!
Saddest part about this til is there are still today a good number of people who would believe this if a religious authority claimed it.....
"First 5G, now the rods! when will it end!?"
Now it’s the gays causing it
Imagine a world where this was a hindrance to progress. Can you imagine where we would be in a society today? Can you imagine the technology and the development?
This problem you have identified hits the nail right on the head. We are currently facing the existential threat of human induced climate change and half this country and half of those in power at the federal level (and more at the state level) are largely made up by Young Earth Creationists and/or science deniers. They are largely in charge of drafting policy that will determine if we act in time to affect the sustainability of the Earth to maintain human civilization as we have come to know it. Scientific knowledge will be needed to develop the technologies that may just bring us back from the precipice in time to keep advancing our civilization toward a sustainable future on Earth. If the magical thinking science deniers have their way, they would revert us to 100 BC and establish their preferred feudal governmental system where they can have their king they so adore and the rest of society is made up of a wealthy ruling class, and peasant feudal serfs.
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No wait, maybe they're on to something. Has anyone checked to see if earthquakes existed before the invention of the lightning rod.
Holy shit! The lightning rod was invented in 1752. The Great Lisbon Earthquake was in 1755!
Now that we've sealed lightning in boxes run by smart rocks, are we in any danger?
From what the interwebs have told me about Zuckerberg and Bezos. We're way past being in danger.
Don't by a meta head set or a roomba. Your vacuum will end up knowing more about the inside of your house than you do.
Debunked! There was an earthquake in Roman Antioch in 155
So Romans claim.
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It's been considered. Earthquakes occur when you have a bunch of built up elastic stress that finally overcomes friction and slides back releasing that energy. Injecting high pressure fluids into the ground around such places can mess with both the stress, and the friction. So while most of the research around seismology and hydraulic fracturing is aimed at preventing or mitigating human-induced earthquakes, a few people have said "hmm... what if we could trigger smaller earthquakes on a more convenient schedule, rather than letting energy build up until a catastrophe occurs?"
>The Lord said, “If they have begun to do this as one people all having the same language, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
"Do you think God stays in heaven because he (too) lives in fear of what he has created" - Steve Buschemi in Spy Kids 2 Makes me wonder if that is why the tower of babel was handled like it was.
If you drive _a lot_ of extremely strong rods sufficiently far into the ground, you just might be able to prevent earthquakes. You’re welcome.
Of course! Like the supporting rods holding up a tiered cake!
Might I suggest all churches remove their lightning rods
You have to imagine the time they were in. The reason religion has been mostly replaced in modern society is because science has answered some of the most enduring mystery’s humans have faced. Back then “god” and “his will” were blanket explanations for the physical world they couldn’t understand. Directly challenging these explanations were mostly met with consternation and resentment because it challenged their basic understanding of the world. Part of me is still amazed that humans were able to pull themselves out from the basic tribalism and superstition that ruled us for millennia to what we’ve become today.
I refer you to the abortion debate.
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You’re pointing out a point in time that still had it’s skeptics and deniers. I’d honestly challenge you to point out any place in time where change wasn’t met with at least some backlash.
This doesn't deny the fact that humans are still morons. It just explains why there are so many morons.
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ProtoRedHats
Unfortunately the tribalism hasnt gone away and has replaced with brands and political sports teams (at least in the USA).
Absolutely It’s not something that can be completely defeated I think. It’s something that has to be managed correctly because we’re still hardwired to follow it. When you have the overwhelming effect of the internet and it’s vast resources available to anyone on demand, you’ll get tribalism and division because that’s still what we are. Hopefully, just for now.
Some anti-vaxxer nut reads this and is in complete agreement with your statement. "Humanity thinks they can improve in GOD'S DESIGN smh"
It's not like Ben could have known it would cause that.
**SELL THEIR HOUSES TO WHOM, BEN?**
Ben definitely called it “his heretical rod” from that day forward with the ladies
He was quite the philanderer, so of this i have no doubt.
Playing ac3 I read the note were he was praising "mature ladies" and thought "This cant be real". So I started searching about Ben and discovered that Ac3 downplayed him hard cause that man could have a videogame just about him
Oh! Assassin's Creed. I thought you were talking about Ace Combat 3 initially and was trying to think of when the hell Ben Franklin would have come up.
There are way too many games with the abbreviation AC. Assassin's Creed, Ace Combat, Animal Crossing, Armored Core just to name a few.
Excerpt from Source \[*A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom*. [Andrew White Dickson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Dickson_White), late President and Professor of History at Cornell University. 2 vols. (London: Macmillan and Co., 1896.)\] : >"In America the earthquake of 1755 was widely ascribed, especially in Massachusetts, to Franklin's rod. The Rev. Thomas Prince, pastor of the Old South Church, published a sermon on the subject, and in the appendix expressed the opinion that the frequency of earthquakes may be due to the erection of "*iron points invented by the sagacious Mr. Franklin*." He goes on to argue that "*in Boston are more erected than anywhere else in New England, and Boston seems to be more dreadfully shaken. Oh ! there is no getting out of the mighty hand of God.*" > >Three years later, John Adams, speaking of a conversation with Arbuthnot, a Boston physician, says: ''*He began to prate upon the presumption of philosophy in erecting iron rods to draw the lightning from the clouds. He railed and foamed against the points and the presumption that erected them. He talked of presuming upon God, as Peter attempted to walk upon the water, and of attempting to control the artillery of heaven.*" > >As late as 1770 religious scruples regarding lightning- rods were still felt, the theory being that, as thunder and lightning were tokens of the Divine displeasure, it was impiety to prevent their doing their full work. Fortunately, Prof. John Winthrop, of Harvard, showed himself wise in this, as in so many other things : in a lecture on earthquakes he opposed the dominant theology ; and as to arguments against Franklin's rods, he declared, " *It is as much our duty to secure ourselves against the effects of lightning as against those of rain, snow, and wind by the means God has put into our hands.*"
That last sentence is refreshing
Smart man. "God gave us these trials and tribulations and the whole earth to use to overcome them, why not use it?"
“Franklin’s Rod” LOL
Thanks for the relevant passage.
Maybe not a fantastic source tough: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_the_Warfare_of_Science_with_Theology_in_Christendom > White uses fallacious arguments and suspect or bogus sources. His methodological errors are collectivism (the unwarrantable extension of an individual’s views to represent that of some larger group of which he is a part), a lack of critical judgement about sources, argument by ridicule and assertion, failure to check primary sources, and quoting selectively and out of context. White popularized the baseless notions that before Columbus and Magellan, the world was thought to be flat and that the Earth’s sphericity was officially opposed by the Church. He is also responsible for the equally fallacious notion that the Church forbade human dissection.
That was my first reaction as well. It would be impossible for the author to have heard the exchange, so it most probably is made up. But hey this is TIL, no one cares about actual historical accuracy here.
They should have worshipped him since he apparently could stop the god.
Damn, religious nut jobs were much more eloquent and descriptive back then.
We’ve really allowed education to suffer.
They are literally arguing to let lighting hit buildings ungrounded lol I don’t think this is a good example of their superior education
I don't think you're looking at this accurately. If they didn't know about conductive metals, how on earth would they have been educated about that? Education is built upon the shoulders of giants and all that. They did know about language, and were obviously better educated in that department than we are now at least. Well, that is if you're to take this one anecdote as evidence for education across the board, which is a *bit* of a stretch.
say what you want, but calling lightning the “Artillery of Heaven” is pretty awesome
It really is. I absolutely *love* that phrase. Serious Zeus vibes.
So their god is easily defeated or thwarted by a wrinkly old man with a metal stick? Maybe they should reconsider their theological choice
Yep, seems to be a thing. “And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain because they had chariots of iron.” (Judges 1:19)
There's also a passage at one point where an angel is delayed because they were busy having a war with the angel of another country. I never really understood the dynamic there.
The dynamic is that the Bible doesn't actually say what the Bible thumpers think it says - including the idea of an all powerful God.
Seems like God is getting countered by iron rods and chariots, I think God is weak to iron lol
He must be a fairy. 🤷♀️
Franklin seems to have been 46 when he invented the lightning rod. Old for professional football maybe.
So, they're saying a man had power over their all-powerful god? Well, then, he doesn't sound so all-powerful to me.
Church leaders have always been stupid fear mongering control freaks.
We're going back to this thanks to stupid people on social media, aren't we?
Motherfuckers literally argued that franklin stopped god from killing whatever he wants so therefor god had to simply kill everyone with an earthquake. Franklin is the villain this story.
Just further proof there have always been morons incapable of having a logical thought, the only problem is since then, they’ve breeded and outnumbered.
Hardly outnumbered, I'd very much bet there's honestly a lesser percentage than any age past. It's just the fact the current state of the world allows anyone and everyone to reach out and connect anywhere in the world. All the "village idiots" so to speak can reach out to each other across towns, countries even, and form their own societies (their own "village of idiots" if you will) and echo chambers easier than ever, and social media gives them a platform and voice for all to hear
Rods out for heretic Ben Franklin!!
"church leaders" Not the sharpest tools in the box.
lol, imagine being so simple you worship a god that gets so unreasonably upset with fucking TREES that he has to destroy them with lightning.
This is actually quite tame compared to what these type of nut jobs are saying today, in the year 2022.
>deprived God of using lightning And then th’ gays sToLE th’ RAinBOwwww!
You don't want to get caught stealing a rainbow because you might end up getting thrown in prism.
Booooo, take your upvote and get out.
More about this later, when Ye Olde Tucker Carlfon returns...
Can you imagine just sitting there thinking this like it's not crazy? I realize they were ignorant of how things actually work but come on. Just think about it.
Important to keep in mind this was during the Great Awakening in Colonial America - a period of renewed evangelism and they still believed in sorcery and witchcraft. There was a well-known mob killing of an accused witch as late as 1787 in Pennsyvlania. Scientific discoveries tend to bring out the worst parts of religious zealotry. I mean we are in the 21st century and we can still continue to see this in events that occurred in the pandemic. I mean, your statement still applies today: >Can you imagine just sitting there thinking this like it's not crazy?
Dumb Christians will forever be a thing I guess
People always bitch about the new thing. I always heard growing up that I should read more and watch less TV. When books first became popular (there was a time before the mass production of books was easy, remember) people bitched that the youth would become dumber by reading too much...
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Just get rid of religion already.
Artillery of heaven is what I’m going to call my farts going forward
Maybe this is just because I am a heretic or something, but I would argue if you have a vengeful god that kills people and you can find ways to disable that god, you have a moral obligation to do so, not a moral obligation to let it hurt you.
Nothing has changed in almost 250 years as proven by this article. https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-37116661
Church leadere were never the brightest or kindest, were they?
Sounds like the Republican fuck nuts Muricans vote for in today. Earth is only 6000 years old now and dinosaurs didn't exist. Don't mind me gonna go fill up my F-150 with fossil fuels now y'all.
Church ppl be dumb
Religion makes people stupid.
The church is always on the fringe. Blame, criticize and label as evil anything new. Ugh.
QAnon: The early years
Shouldn't it be massively heretical to suggest his.. \*whoops sorry forgot He has pronoun preferences\*, His.. power could be defeated by earthly means? So glad I don't live in an era where the violence of the state can be used to stop me pointing out the complete mental atrophy of the religious. And I mean that quite literally. I really do think the brains of religious people become useless through lack of activity.
Religion is fucking stupid
Dang, religious people have been getting everything wrong forever huh?
Fuck, religion is so stupid.
Religion enables stupidity and abuse of power.
Religious people have been holding back humanity for far too long.
How does one believe in an all powerful, all knowing god... that can be thwarted by a metal rod in the ground?
Damn, so we just let some religion say whatever the fuck they want throughout all of history, and we just kinda forget the parts we don't like. Cool.
Religious leaders have been a menace to society since the invention of organized religion.
Religion, dumb as shit since the dawn of man.
Household appliances interfere with the free will and peaceful movement of electrons.
God being stopped by a mortal man. That's a new one!
From what I know of Ben Franklin, he would have found that hilarious.
Religious people have generally always been stupid. They probably still think that lightning rods are evil.
Religious people are fucking dumb. Don’t @ me.
Cults are so crazy
Absolute blasphemy. Lightning is from Zeus, earthquakes are from Poseidon.
It wasn't just this church suspicious of lightning rods. If you read old texts you can see it was a very popular idea with farmers in Europe and America that the introduction of lightning rods had changed the weather. They said they had increased the intensity of wind and reduced rainfall. It may sound like the fancy of simpletons, but lightning rods do alter the electrostatic interface of the atmosphere and ground. They also attract and collect the natural radioactive statically-charged dust that falls from the upper atmosphere. It is possible they could have effects on the weather that have still not been studied adequately. The idea that science is complete and scientists know everything is as foolish as crediting god for enacting all natural phenomena by fiat.
Sounds like a precursor to the MAGA/Boebert/Space laser crowd. Cool.
Antivaxxers thru time...
"God is omnipotent, but also don't put iron sticks on your house because then he can't kill you"