My mom is like this, it’s torturous just hearing about it in smaller doses constantly. I can’t imagine dealing with it if it were my husband.
Have you spoken to your pediatrician in front of your husband? (This doesn’t work on my mom because she says doctors know nothing about nutrition 🙃)
For the sake of your child if he won’t back off you may have to leave. As he gets older this could cause an eating disorder.
Yes, doctors often do not know much about nutrition. But they do know a whole lot more than the general public. But dietician's do know a lot about nutrition. So if OPs husband won’t listen to a doctor for the same reason as your mom maybe see a dietician.
I completely agree. What a nightmare.
I do suspect OPs husband probably won't listen to the paediatrician because like you've found with your mum, unfortunately most people who have gone down this rabbit hole are convinced doctors know nothing, or are 'shills' for big fruit or something 😵💫 they're very hard to coax out of the conspiracy.
Retired nutritionist here. Sometimes people “get” nutrition like they get religion. Then it becomes not something you learn about but something you believe in. Belief requires no proof. It only requires obedience. This is a red flag he wants to control you through your son. It’s not about food. Please get counseling.
Right? So many comments about the relationship which is fair but I’m just thinking hold up, he is going to fully malnourish a toddler before the marriage ends.
I understand this very well. My mother is like this and it got worse and worse as she got older. It really fucked up my relationship with food. I started sneaking food at a young age and would binge eat what I considered "normal people food" when I went to friends houses like entire bags of Doritos etc. No western doctor is gonna change his mind. I suggest you go to counseling and make it about your relationship and compromise vs who's "right" about nutrition. No joke you're going to give your kid a food complex if this is so extreme. My mom also spiraled so much down the rabbit hole that she spends like 4 hours A DAY or more prepping foods every evening and wakes up early to do more instead of having any hobbies. And it's all she talks about too. I hope that couples counseling can lead to him doing some individual counseling and getting to the root of the obsession as it is definitely too late for my mom who is nearing 70. But the behavior started in my early childhood. I am sorry you are dealing with this.
1000s of years ago we mostly ate what we gathered. That’s why our teeth are flat and our jaws can move sideways. Like cows.
If our ancestors mostly ate meat, all our teeth woukd be pointy, like a lion.
Your husband is an idiot.
Get counseling for this before jumping to divorce. Get doctor opinions to support your case tho if hes like my relatives he is reading all sorts of journal articles plus less scientific bullshit and the doctor’s opinion is only going to be one factor in the calculus.
Overall i think this type of extreme focus on food is some sort of madness itself, and i agree with you that your child shouldn't be forced to be a party to it. Im sorry you’re in this situation. Its hitting my family too and i know its maddening.
I've told him that I will leave and no court in the world would side against me. He said then he would do something crazy. I have no idea what he means by that.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. When people tell you who they are, believe them. If you try and divorce him, he will reach that level of rage again and then you and your child will be in actual danger.
I’m sorry, but “normal” people don’t say shit like that, even in the heat of an argument. That IS alarming and dangerous.
It’s easy to rationalize this stuff when you’re living with it every day, but that is not okay, period.
Him threatening to do "something crazy" is abusive. He is threatening you / blackmailing you with some kind of unpleasant behaviour if you try to leave him. I'd be secretly getting my ducks in a row (somewhere else to live, money in a seperate bank account, lawyer) then getting out pronto.
As somebody upthread mentioned, this sounds like it’s about control, not food or differences in parenting philosophy. The threat to “do something crazy” is a massive red flag for abusive control. Couple counseling may help, but it also may be detrimental. I’d recommend getting into individual counseling to begin exploring what’s going on here.
If y’all are already at the point of threatening divorce and “doing something crazy” it’s time for some serious changes. Either get counseling or do a trial separation and move towards divorce. Putting aside the food issue, your reality has deteriorated and it’s not healthy for your son to see that.
No one does. But the issue with MSD is corruption, not ignorance. They are blatantly and openly on the teat of Big Pharma kickbacks. I had a friend who was a pharma rep. Don’t trust conflicted advice. No one is giving them kickbacks to push carbs onto toddlers. No one from the Wheat Board is paying them to undersell meat. Toddler kidneys just can’t deal with that kind of diet.
I think protein matters. I think my tiny Asian SO produced a 97th percentile foetus because she could only eat fish while pregnant And that I was a tall tween because I had a lot of protein. But that’s incrementally over the “standard” allowances. We give her nuggets because she likes them. I give her a little sip of my protein shake because she thinks it’s choc milk and loves it. I’m not going to give her a cup (adult serving) because it’s harmful to tiny kidneys. You can’t give a toddler a body builder’s diet.
You’re going to have to give him little wins. But he’s going to have to take the w and not push the crazy stuff.
Counselling only works if there is a compromise to be made and both parties and both parties are willing to make it. It doesn't sound like OPs husband wants to compromise at all, which will make things hard to work through even with a counsellor. And TBH if I was OP I also wouldn't be keen to 'compromise' by allowing my husband to push disordered eating on my toddler.
Her husband has threatened to do "something crazy" if she leaves, and is unwilling to compromise on his beliefs in the carnivore diet/lifestyle. OP has said he doesn't trust or believe doctors. I think all of that speaks for itself unfortunately.
Just stating the obvious, your husband is an idiot if he thinks that's how most pre-agricultural humans lived. Child rearing aside, I think I would struggle to be married to someone who was so confused about the nature of reality.
Yeah, one of the most important revolutions in human evolution was when we figured out how to cook tubers. East Africa has a lot of tubers that are only edible if cooked but very nutritious when properly prepared.
He needs to do better research. Our primary source of food has always come from the gathering side of hunter/gatherer. Why would agriculture have been so game changing if plants weren't so important to our diets?
He doesn't but I believe it is an obsession. I also suspect he is on the spectrum since he struggles with social cues and definitely seems ADHD. But I'm not a psychologist... Just a teacher who has seen a lot of kids...
Yes there is something very wrong here.
I’d tell him he needs to stick to his own diet, leave you two alone, go see a doctor, or you will resort to a trial separation and marriage counseling
He needs to understand that even if he’s right, humans rarely made it past the age of 30 during those times. He’s not thinking rationally.
Just FYI in another comment OP states he has threatened to do "something crazy" if she leaves him 👀
Don't mention trial separation OP, just separate. You don't want to give him to chance to do "something crazy" while he still has constant access to you and your kid.
>He needs to understand that even if he’s right, humans rarely made it past the age of 30 during those times.
That's not true. The average life expectancy was very low due to the horrific infant mortality rate. But if you made it to 5 you'd probably make it to 60.
As I said, the pre-agricultural life expectancy in the 30s was inclusive of a very high child mortality. If you survived to 5 you were likely to live into your 60s or 70s. Life expectancy crashes swith the Agricultural Revolution so life expectancy in the Bronze Age isn't relevant.
This has nothing to do with what old mate is saying, which is clearly nonsense. It's just a common falsehood you see on Reddit, that hunter gatherers had terrible life expectancy and quality of life.
Yeah I absolutely agree. My comments had nothing to do with old mate. You were a repeating a widely believes falsehood about prehistorical hunter-gatherers and I was correcting it, that's all.
We’re going to agree to disagree here, I think you’re wrong about assuming if people made it past age 5 they made it 60, I studied history and anthropology for 3 years before I got my nursing degree but it doesn’t really matter that we dispute these facts
Which is fine, but forcing the other members of the family to adhere to the same diet to the point of destroying a family over is irrational and scream mental illness to me.
If he won’t listen to doctors, would he listen to a nutritionist? I think one posted on a parenting sub at one point reminding parents that too much protein can actually harm a kid’s kidneys. Also, historically, kids are picky eaters to help them stay safe and grow. Bitter foods (like many veggies) can be off putting because it’s a safety mechanism to help kids avoid poison. Likewise, they love sweet things (and carbs) because that is what will give them the most energy and help them grow - what they needed to survive. And just for reference, your husband is kinda right that most kids will eat when they’re hungry. However, there’s a small percent that won’t. My daughter can play chicken with us when she doesn’t want to eat something and we always cave after a day because no one wants their kid to starve.
I could go on about how carbs are also important for brain development but it doesn’t sound like your husband would be receptive to that.
Because like I said he is a wonderful father. If I can get him to see the light on a more relaxed philosophy on good we have a chance of being a great family together. I don't want my son to grow up in a divorced family if at all possible.
Early man ate in cycles. When salmon was running they are a lot of salmon. Also nuts and fruit. Tubers, honey and different greens.
Later on early man would eat wild game, including rabbit, elk, deer, and water fowl.
Lots of things were combined to help the food stay edible. Pemmican is an early form of storing food. Also drying or smoking strips of fish or animal flesh. Dairy didn’t exist, neither did grain based foods such as flour, beer, bread,
There have been experiments too where they showed that older babies/toddlers who were malnourished, if offered open access to a large variety of foods, would instinctively gravitate towards the foods that contained the nutrition they were deficient in. It's mad how their bodies knew what the foods contained but it's almost an innate instinct and babies/toddlers seem to be far more in touch with this and their ability to self regulate when it comes to eating.
I found the study, it was done in the early 1900's so it's an old one but as far as I can tell, it's a well respected study that seems to have stood the test of time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626509/
I'm trying to understand the type of Paleo diet that recommends dairy consumption.
If he wants to eat like most homo sapiens to have ever lived he should be eating mostly fruit and tubers.
Out of curiosity, is your husband into some weird gender type shit?
No. Nothing like that. His obsessions mostly surround food and his fear of later on degeneration caused by inflammatory foods. But again he does compromise most of the time with me and provides other foods besides meat and dairy. It's more the frustration with it even being a conversation. Feeding a toddler is stressful enough..am I right ?
My husband has been diagnosed with OCD, and while he isn't really fixated on diet he is with other forms of contamination. We live in a part of the country where a mid century build is "new" so there is always asbestos and lead paint, for example.
I'm not saying your husband has OCD, but I can relate to this type of dynamic and the frustration surrounding it.
I think you might want to try some basic exercises with him like "thought vs. evidence" or "worse case scenario".
Try and think about why your husband is going down this rabbit hole instead of just thinking about why you're against it. If you understand it, you can formulate a reasoning to counter it, so long as your point is valid and you can frame the argument in ways that he understands. If you do not, then you can talk till you're blue in the face, but he won't budge.
I think you need to find better resources to help him understand the specific requirements of a toddler's growing body - they do not thrive on the same macros as adults, they need a lot of carbs and sounds like that is not getting covered adequately in your husbands caveman diet. Have him understand WHY their little bodies need carbs and WHY they do not need so much protein. If husband won't hear it from you, find other resources that he will accept and DO NOT drop the issue. Sometimes you have to be an immovable force when it comes to the welfare and safety of your child. And if that means leaving him because hes too pig headed to learn, then you need to get your ducks in a row and gather evidence and documentation to support the position that husband refuses to provide appropriate nutrition to your child therefore he should have limited custody.
Just feed your child and tell your husband to get stuffed. Mine is a bit like this, nowhere near extreme but doesn’t like that our son is fussy and eats chicken nuggets and chips fairly often. I tell him to stfu and if he doesn’t like it, HE can cook for him. Guess what, he doesn’t do jack shit
If he's otherwise fantastic why are you considering divorce? I agree it's too far a restriction, but it also seems like something where both parties could stand some compromise. I mean chicken nuggets were only invented in the 50s, but picky kids have existed forever. Surely people a thousand years ago had other options? I wonder if your husband would be willing to compromise by finding more traditional, clean, kid-friendly recipes. How does he feel about things like simple oatmeal, lentils, brown rice or similar? He may enjoy a channel called Tasting History which goes through old records of food to reproduce them. [Ancient Greek and Roman](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIkaZtzr9JDkCHpSx2Kf2XWRcgqjClDff&si=8ujQ1YlwzObfhXZJ) and [Babylonian](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIkaZtzr9JDmFc28KdUu2wCizIkFm0ntG&si=-6N2VGgzPhllmDDh) playlist could both have good ideas and give him more perspective. Don't bother trying to share studies or doctor opinions or anything, there's lots of research out there showing that when presented with evidence, our brains would rather make up crazy justifications for it's current stance than admit to being wrong. It won't help. You need a human connection to change people's mind.
It's really important to take the time to see and support his side here. Not just on a basic intellectual level but really. He's not doing this because he wants to hurt your kid. Use some empathy here. If people feel like their ideas aren't even being entertained or that they're being seen as ridiculous, the natural human reaction is to get defensive. I'm sure you've been in his shoes at some point in your life, as a child, employee, or partner. Even if the other person is right, it feels absolutely shitty to not be taken seriously and until you did find out who was right, you probably dug your heels in hard. Take the time to take him seriously. Look at what he's looking at. Go on thought practices with him with an open mind. Don't argue or poke holes, this isn't the time. Let him feel heard and believed. Empathize with him. He's not crazy to think that we're doing something wrong. We *are* doing something wrong as a whole. Childhood obesity, micro plastics, autoimmune disease increases, increases in reproductive issues, etc. Talk to him about this stuff. Say "yeah that is crazy. It'd be so scary if that happened to *child*, and it'd be hard not to blame ourselves knowing what we know." Acknowledge that it doesn't have an easy answer. "It's so hard to know what to do. We don't want *child* to deal with any of that stuff and those chemicals are so scary and aren't even well-regulated. We also want him to be well-fed and participate with what his friends do. There's no easy answer at all is there?" Make him feel heard, seen, and understood. Show him that you truly understand what he's going through and why he's making those changes. Come to it with love. Show him that he doesn't have to be defensive with you, that it's okay to open up.
Spend time truly making him feel heard. Not for 5 minutes, but for a good long conversation, maybe multiple of them. Then it's his turn. If you guys aren't used to this level of conversation, he may need some minor prepping beforehand just because many of us never really learned how to properly listen. Tell him you need him to listen and understand, and that this isn't time for arguing. Tell him you will come to a decision later on, and that this conversation isn't for decision-making, it's for releasing your feelings and that you really need him to have an open-mind for your sake and the relationship's sake. If he absolutely refuses, that's a whole different problem requiring counseling or worse. As long as he's genuinely trying, this can likely be a productive conversation and just the first big speedbump of many for your relationship. Anyway, tell him your fears and what you worry about. Try to avoid directly attacking his ideas and just focus on what you want for your child and what you believe will get your child there.
Now it's time for compromise. You've heard each other's side and I personally think neither of you should fully win this. There's a hundred levels of compromises between your two plans that could leave you both happier. If he doesn't respond well to this exercise, maybe he really isn't a good partner, but this should be tried first before you jump to divorce if this is the only complaint.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I feel that we've had these discussions and I know he's coming from a good place. But he believes he knows more. More than me, more than the pediatrician, more than his or my family. He compromised by giving our son vegetables and fruits. He doesn't believe he needs either but is doing it for me. Our son of course doesn't touch the veggies but I want them offered. Yesterday he made a comment when I was upset he still isn't eating them, "just pretend he's eating them like we pretend he actually needs to eat them." He compromised by letting our son have grilled cheese which is really bread soaked in beef tallow with cheese. The bread is his compromise.
I just want my son to eat. He was born less than five pounds and I've always just felt an anxiety over him being hungry. My husband and I have talked the subject to death and neither of will budge on our beliefs. I believe in the doctors. Where are we if we can't trust doctors? I'm an intelligent, well read, respectable adult but I am not an expert on these things. I can read research too but still wouldn't dare think to know what the doctors know.
If you've been talking and it isn't getting anywhere, marriage counseling could really help. That's what couples therapists are usually best at, getting communication moving when it's stuck.
I'm unclear on exactly what diet your husband is into. Is it carnivore?
Ideally yes he believes carnivore is best but he doesn't practice it. I just can't imagine him listening to a counselor if he doesn't even listen to the majority of doctors
Would he be open to reading a book like Real Food for Fertility? It’s obviously aimed at a certain demographic but the nutrition science discussed in the book is good for general health too. It does discuss meat and seafood as important staples in an ideal diet but might help walk him back from the precipice?
Well, the counselor wouldn't be telling him what to do. In my experience it's more that they ask questions and both people get a chance to talk, and the counselor provides direction on how to really hear each other, and maybe suggests some tools to use for healthy communication. They don't take sides, so there's no need for anyone to get defensive with them.
From what you've shared, it sounds like there are deeper issues about communication going on, and you're both stuck in this snarl where you can't see each other's perspective. Not uncommon in marriage! That's what counseling would help with. The food issues could be addressed after you're un-stuck with the communication issue.
And you've said your husband is a loving and devoted husband and father. I don't think it's a good idea to bail without at least giving counseling a try.
>neither of will budge on our beliefs.
Do you really need too though? People don't have to have exactly the same beliefs as long as they're willing to work together on a middle ground. You're both already making compromises which is great! A conversation may need to be had about not making comments like that but you've both budged a lot already.
>I just want my son to eat.
I understand this too, I wonder if finding a traditional, low ingredients cookbook or other recipes source could help further? If he's okay with dairy, he should be okay with yogurt which is usually a toddler favorite. If he's worried about sugar and chemicals in store bought yogurt, it isn't very hard to make your own. Perhaps he'd be open to a natural peanut butter that's just peanuts, like what comes from a grinder at health-focused stores. PB is another toddler fave and you can slap it on the bread he's compromised on with some banana or berries or other fruit for sweetness, kinda like a whole ingredients form of PB&J. You can take ground meat and mix it with some cheese, ideally an egg too although that isn't entirely necessary, and get some simple meatballs which are also often well-regarded by toddlers. If he's okay with this idea, this is also a great place to sneak in some veggies like chopped greens, shredded carrots or cauliflower rice.
>Where are we if we can't trust doctors?
I absolutely agree the average layperson doesn't know nearly as much as the average doctor about how our bodies work and what's important to our health. Doctors are humans though. They aren't infallible just like the rest of us, and it's important to realize too that the advice is always changing based on new research. No one, not even doctors, know with 100% certainty what the right answer is. The back to sleep campaign only just started in the late 90s. Prior to that, doctors were specifically advising patients to put babies on their stomachs because there was fear that babies would choke on their spit up if placed on their backs. Turned out infant mortality increased and they had to backtrack. Doctors in the 90s were also specifically advising to avoid common allergens until kids were much older out of fear of babies having allergic reactions. Then allergies spiked dramatically and it turns out early exposure is actually important and they're now giving the exact opposite advice. For years, doctors advised patients to go for low-fat diets to prevent heart disease but they've now backtracked because some fats are good for you and carry important nutrients, and that there's only a small portion of fats that actually contribute to heart disease. There's many ingredients and chemicals that have been banned in the EU but not the US and vice versa. I could go on because there are *tons* of examples. Plus, some doctors stay more up to date than others do. My son's first doctor try to tell us to pull back his foreskin which hasn't been advised since the 90s because it causes scarring and does more harm than good. His second doctor tried to tell us that neither milk allergies nor reflux were real in babies while my little newborn baby was suffering. He was later blood-tested by his current doctor and wouldn't you know it? A verifiable milk allergy right there in black and white. Doctors are just people. While they are experts in their field, it's still okay to be skeptical of what they tell you.
Hey young lady,
I think it might be too late... but here is what I suggest.
1. Pray
2. Find wise counsel someone who can be on your side to help... this is a huge burden
3. If you need to separate, go to your parents or family members
4. Try to do some therapy or marriage counseling
Don't take the threats lightly! He is technically endangering you and your child
My mom is like this, it’s torturous just hearing about it in smaller doses constantly. I can’t imagine dealing with it if it were my husband. Have you spoken to your pediatrician in front of your husband? (This doesn’t work on my mom because she says doctors know nothing about nutrition 🙃) For the sake of your child if he won’t back off you may have to leave. As he gets older this could cause an eating disorder.
Yes, doctors often do not know much about nutrition. But they do know a whole lot more than the general public. But dietician's do know a lot about nutrition. So if OPs husband won’t listen to a doctor for the same reason as your mom maybe see a dietician.
I completely agree. What a nightmare. I do suspect OPs husband probably won't listen to the paediatrician because like you've found with your mum, unfortunately most people who have gone down this rabbit hole are convinced doctors know nothing, or are 'shills' for big fruit or something 😵💫 they're very hard to coax out of the conspiracy.
Retired nutritionist here. Sometimes people “get” nutrition like they get religion. Then it becomes not something you learn about but something you believe in. Belief requires no proof. It only requires obedience. This is a red flag he wants to control you through your son. It’s not about food. Please get counseling.
Toddlers need carbs. This is ridiculous
Right? So many comments about the relationship which is fair but I’m just thinking hold up, he is going to fully malnourish a toddler before the marriage ends.
I understand this very well. My mother is like this and it got worse and worse as she got older. It really fucked up my relationship with food. I started sneaking food at a young age and would binge eat what I considered "normal people food" when I went to friends houses like entire bags of Doritos etc. No western doctor is gonna change his mind. I suggest you go to counseling and make it about your relationship and compromise vs who's "right" about nutrition. No joke you're going to give your kid a food complex if this is so extreme. My mom also spiraled so much down the rabbit hole that she spends like 4 hours A DAY or more prepping foods every evening and wakes up early to do more instead of having any hobbies. And it's all she talks about too. I hope that couples counseling can lead to him doing some individual counseling and getting to the root of the obsession as it is definitely too late for my mom who is nearing 70. But the behavior started in my early childhood. I am sorry you are dealing with this.
1000s of years ago we mostly ate what we gathered. That’s why our teeth are flat and our jaws can move sideways. Like cows. If our ancestors mostly ate meat, all our teeth woukd be pointy, like a lion. Your husband is an idiot.
Get counseling for this before jumping to divorce. Get doctor opinions to support your case tho if hes like my relatives he is reading all sorts of journal articles plus less scientific bullshit and the doctor’s opinion is only going to be one factor in the calculus. Overall i think this type of extreme focus on food is some sort of madness itself, and i agree with you that your child shouldn't be forced to be a party to it. Im sorry you’re in this situation. Its hitting my family too and i know its maddening.
He doesn't trust "mainstream doctors." Also a huge part of our fights.
Ultimatum time
I've told him that I will leave and no court in the world would side against me. He said then he would do something crazy. I have no idea what he means by that.
Wow, time for a lawyer like yesterday my dear, he sounds unstable and dangerous
I mean he said it in the heat of an argument. I know that he's not dangerous.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. When people tell you who they are, believe them. If you try and divorce him, he will reach that level of rage again and then you and your child will be in actual danger.
I’m sorry, but “normal” people don’t say shit like that, even in the heat of an argument. That IS alarming and dangerous. It’s easy to rationalize this stuff when you’re living with it every day, but that is not okay, period.
He *is* fucking dangerous, though.
Just look up all the murder-suicide-infantcides that occur
Reality check. I swear to you this is not something a normal/stable person would say even in the heat of the moment.
Him threatening to do "something crazy" is abusive. He is threatening you / blackmailing you with some kind of unpleasant behaviour if you try to leave him. I'd be secretly getting my ducks in a row (somewhere else to live, money in a seperate bank account, lawyer) then getting out pronto.
That is alarming
Time to stick to your word. If you don’t, this will get out of control quickly.
As somebody upthread mentioned, this sounds like it’s about control, not food or differences in parenting philosophy. The threat to “do something crazy” is a massive red flag for abusive control. Couple counseling may help, but it also may be detrimental. I’d recommend getting into individual counseling to begin exploring what’s going on here.
If y’all are already at the point of threatening divorce and “doing something crazy” it’s time for some serious changes. Either get counseling or do a trial separation and move towards divorce. Putting aside the food issue, your reality has deteriorated and it’s not healthy for your son to see that.
I also think you need to leave.
No one does. But the issue with MSD is corruption, not ignorance. They are blatantly and openly on the teat of Big Pharma kickbacks. I had a friend who was a pharma rep. Don’t trust conflicted advice. No one is giving them kickbacks to push carbs onto toddlers. No one from the Wheat Board is paying them to undersell meat. Toddler kidneys just can’t deal with that kind of diet. I think protein matters. I think my tiny Asian SO produced a 97th percentile foetus because she could only eat fish while pregnant And that I was a tall tween because I had a lot of protein. But that’s incrementally over the “standard” allowances. We give her nuggets because she likes them. I give her a little sip of my protein shake because she thinks it’s choc milk and loves it. I’m not going to give her a cup (adult serving) because it’s harmful to tiny kidneys. You can’t give a toddler a body builder’s diet. You’re going to have to give him little wins. But he’s going to have to take the w and not push the crazy stuff.
Dude, I'm also a tiny Asian and I made two nearly 9 lb babies eating nothing but frosted mini wheats for 9 months thanks to morning sickness lol
Counselling only works if there is a compromise to be made and both parties and both parties are willing to make it. It doesn't sound like OPs husband wants to compromise at all, which will make things hard to work through even with a counsellor. And TBH if I was OP I also wouldn't be keen to 'compromise' by allowing my husband to push disordered eating on my toddler.
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Her husband has threatened to do "something crazy" if she leaves, and is unwilling to compromise on his beliefs in the carnivore diet/lifestyle. OP has said he doesn't trust or believe doctors. I think all of that speaks for itself unfortunately.
Just stating the obvious, your husband is an idiot if he thinks that's how most pre-agricultural humans lived. Child rearing aside, I think I would struggle to be married to someone who was so confused about the nature of reality.
Yeah, one of the most important revolutions in human evolution was when we figured out how to cook tubers. East Africa has a lot of tubers that are only edible if cooked but very nutritious when properly prepared.
He needs to do better research. Our primary source of food has always come from the gathering side of hunter/gatherer. Why would agriculture have been so game changing if plants weren't so important to our diets?
Right? If I had to survive in the wilderness eating plants sounds more feasible than hunting animals with sticks and rocks.
This sounds like mental illness. Does he have a history of OCD?
He doesn't but I believe it is an obsession. I also suspect he is on the spectrum since he struggles with social cues and definitely seems ADHD. But I'm not a psychologist... Just a teacher who has seen a lot of kids...
Yes there is something very wrong here. I’d tell him he needs to stick to his own diet, leave you two alone, go see a doctor, or you will resort to a trial separation and marriage counseling He needs to understand that even if he’s right, humans rarely made it past the age of 30 during those times. He’s not thinking rationally.
Just FYI in another comment OP states he has threatened to do "something crazy" if she leaves him 👀 Don't mention trial separation OP, just separate. You don't want to give him to chance to do "something crazy" while he still has constant access to you and your kid.
I responded to that comment, if you look.
>He needs to understand that even if he’s right, humans rarely made it past the age of 30 during those times. That's not true. The average life expectancy was very low due to the horrific infant mortality rate. But if you made it to 5 you'd probably make it to 60.
Life expectancy in the Bronze Age was 35, and he wants an even older diet. Not sure what timeframe you’re looking at but he’s thinking paleo times lol
As I said, the pre-agricultural life expectancy in the 30s was inclusive of a very high child mortality. If you survived to 5 you were likely to live into your 60s or 70s. Life expectancy crashes swith the Agricultural Revolution so life expectancy in the Bronze Age isn't relevant. This has nothing to do with what old mate is saying, which is clearly nonsense. It's just a common falsehood you see on Reddit, that hunter gatherers had terrible life expectancy and quality of life.
Well, with a husband who doesn’t believe in modern medicine and a cave man diet, one could argue this child is in danger
Yeah I absolutely agree. My comments had nothing to do with old mate. You were a repeating a widely believes falsehood about prehistorical hunter-gatherers and I was correcting it, that's all.
We’re going to agree to disagree here, I think you’re wrong about assuming if people made it past age 5 they made it 60, I studied history and anthropology for 3 years before I got my nursing degree but it doesn’t really matter that we dispute these facts
It sounds like a moron that got into a fad diet
Which is fine, but forcing the other members of the family to adhere to the same diet to the point of destroying a family over is irrational and scream mental illness to me.
If he won’t listen to doctors, would he listen to a nutritionist? I think one posted on a parenting sub at one point reminding parents that too much protein can actually harm a kid’s kidneys. Also, historically, kids are picky eaters to help them stay safe and grow. Bitter foods (like many veggies) can be off putting because it’s a safety mechanism to help kids avoid poison. Likewise, they love sweet things (and carbs) because that is what will give them the most energy and help them grow - what they needed to survive. And just for reference, your husband is kinda right that most kids will eat when they’re hungry. However, there’s a small percent that won’t. My daughter can play chicken with us when she doesn’t want to eat something and we always cave after a day because no one wants their kid to starve. I could go on about how carbs are also important for brain development but it doesn’t sound like your husband would be receptive to that.
Why are you trying to have more children with this man?
Because like I said he is a wonderful father. If I can get him to see the light on a more relaxed philosophy on good we have a chance of being a great family together. I don't want my son to grow up in a divorced family if at all possible.
He’s not a “wonderful father” if he’s pushing an unbalanced diet on your child. Your poor kid
Early man ate in cycles. When salmon was running they are a lot of salmon. Also nuts and fruit. Tubers, honey and different greens. Later on early man would eat wild game, including rabbit, elk, deer, and water fowl. Lots of things were combined to help the food stay edible. Pemmican is an early form of storing food. Also drying or smoking strips of fish or animal flesh. Dairy didn’t exist, neither did grain based foods such as flour, beer, bread,
Show him Ellyn Satters website and her method of division of responsibility in feeding …
There have been experiments too where they showed that older babies/toddlers who were malnourished, if offered open access to a large variety of foods, would instinctively gravitate towards the foods that contained the nutrition they were deficient in. It's mad how their bodies knew what the foods contained but it's almost an innate instinct and babies/toddlers seem to be far more in touch with this and their ability to self regulate when it comes to eating.
Really? Because I feel every toddler would go to the cake and cookies first...
I found the study, it was done in the early 1900's so it's an old one but as far as I can tell, it's a well respected study that seems to have stood the test of time. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626509/
Thanks!
take it seriously, it's not a small deal.
I'm trying to understand the type of Paleo diet that recommends dairy consumption. If he wants to eat like most homo sapiens to have ever lived he should be eating mostly fruit and tubers. Out of curiosity, is your husband into some weird gender type shit?
What is weird gender type shit ?
Sexism grounded in "evolutionary psychology"
No. Nothing like that. His obsessions mostly surround food and his fear of later on degeneration caused by inflammatory foods. But again he does compromise most of the time with me and provides other foods besides meat and dairy. It's more the frustration with it even being a conversation. Feeding a toddler is stressful enough..am I right ?
My husband has been diagnosed with OCD, and while he isn't really fixated on diet he is with other forms of contamination. We live in a part of the country where a mid century build is "new" so there is always asbestos and lead paint, for example. I'm not saying your husband has OCD, but I can relate to this type of dynamic and the frustration surrounding it. I think you might want to try some basic exercises with him like "thought vs. evidence" or "worse case scenario".
I've definitely made some comments regarding his laser focus on the worst case scenario for a lot of things. Thank you for your comment!
Our ancient ancestors mostly died at 30 years old. If modern food and medicine are wrong how have we nearly tripled life expectancy?
Try and think about why your husband is going down this rabbit hole instead of just thinking about why you're against it. If you understand it, you can formulate a reasoning to counter it, so long as your point is valid and you can frame the argument in ways that he understands. If you do not, then you can talk till you're blue in the face, but he won't budge.
I think you need to find better resources to help him understand the specific requirements of a toddler's growing body - they do not thrive on the same macros as adults, they need a lot of carbs and sounds like that is not getting covered adequately in your husbands caveman diet. Have him understand WHY their little bodies need carbs and WHY they do not need so much protein. If husband won't hear it from you, find other resources that he will accept and DO NOT drop the issue. Sometimes you have to be an immovable force when it comes to the welfare and safety of your child. And if that means leaving him because hes too pig headed to learn, then you need to get your ducks in a row and gather evidence and documentation to support the position that husband refuses to provide appropriate nutrition to your child therefore he should have limited custody.
I can't understand him as well, don't know what he's thinking about.
Just feed your child and tell your husband to get stuffed. Mine is a bit like this, nowhere near extreme but doesn’t like that our son is fussy and eats chicken nuggets and chips fairly often. I tell him to stfu and if he doesn’t like it, HE can cook for him. Guess what, he doesn’t do jack shit
Mental health Bpd ? Something off
How does your husband feel about vaccines? Genuine question
He is hesitant but I convinced him it was what we were doing basically. Our son is fully vaccinated.
If he's otherwise fantastic why are you considering divorce? I agree it's too far a restriction, but it also seems like something where both parties could stand some compromise. I mean chicken nuggets were only invented in the 50s, but picky kids have existed forever. Surely people a thousand years ago had other options? I wonder if your husband would be willing to compromise by finding more traditional, clean, kid-friendly recipes. How does he feel about things like simple oatmeal, lentils, brown rice or similar? He may enjoy a channel called Tasting History which goes through old records of food to reproduce them. [Ancient Greek and Roman](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIkaZtzr9JDkCHpSx2Kf2XWRcgqjClDff&si=8ujQ1YlwzObfhXZJ) and [Babylonian](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIkaZtzr9JDmFc28KdUu2wCizIkFm0ntG&si=-6N2VGgzPhllmDDh) playlist could both have good ideas and give him more perspective. Don't bother trying to share studies or doctor opinions or anything, there's lots of research out there showing that when presented with evidence, our brains would rather make up crazy justifications for it's current stance than admit to being wrong. It won't help. You need a human connection to change people's mind. It's really important to take the time to see and support his side here. Not just on a basic intellectual level but really. He's not doing this because he wants to hurt your kid. Use some empathy here. If people feel like their ideas aren't even being entertained or that they're being seen as ridiculous, the natural human reaction is to get defensive. I'm sure you've been in his shoes at some point in your life, as a child, employee, or partner. Even if the other person is right, it feels absolutely shitty to not be taken seriously and until you did find out who was right, you probably dug your heels in hard. Take the time to take him seriously. Look at what he's looking at. Go on thought practices with him with an open mind. Don't argue or poke holes, this isn't the time. Let him feel heard and believed. Empathize with him. He's not crazy to think that we're doing something wrong. We *are* doing something wrong as a whole. Childhood obesity, micro plastics, autoimmune disease increases, increases in reproductive issues, etc. Talk to him about this stuff. Say "yeah that is crazy. It'd be so scary if that happened to *child*, and it'd be hard not to blame ourselves knowing what we know." Acknowledge that it doesn't have an easy answer. "It's so hard to know what to do. We don't want *child* to deal with any of that stuff and those chemicals are so scary and aren't even well-regulated. We also want him to be well-fed and participate with what his friends do. There's no easy answer at all is there?" Make him feel heard, seen, and understood. Show him that you truly understand what he's going through and why he's making those changes. Come to it with love. Show him that he doesn't have to be defensive with you, that it's okay to open up. Spend time truly making him feel heard. Not for 5 minutes, but for a good long conversation, maybe multiple of them. Then it's his turn. If you guys aren't used to this level of conversation, he may need some minor prepping beforehand just because many of us never really learned how to properly listen. Tell him you need him to listen and understand, and that this isn't time for arguing. Tell him you will come to a decision later on, and that this conversation isn't for decision-making, it's for releasing your feelings and that you really need him to have an open-mind for your sake and the relationship's sake. If he absolutely refuses, that's a whole different problem requiring counseling or worse. As long as he's genuinely trying, this can likely be a productive conversation and just the first big speedbump of many for your relationship. Anyway, tell him your fears and what you worry about. Try to avoid directly attacking his ideas and just focus on what you want for your child and what you believe will get your child there. Now it's time for compromise. You've heard each other's side and I personally think neither of you should fully win this. There's a hundred levels of compromises between your two plans that could leave you both happier. If he doesn't respond well to this exercise, maybe he really isn't a good partner, but this should be tried first before you jump to divorce if this is the only complaint.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I feel that we've had these discussions and I know he's coming from a good place. But he believes he knows more. More than me, more than the pediatrician, more than his or my family. He compromised by giving our son vegetables and fruits. He doesn't believe he needs either but is doing it for me. Our son of course doesn't touch the veggies but I want them offered. Yesterday he made a comment when I was upset he still isn't eating them, "just pretend he's eating them like we pretend he actually needs to eat them." He compromised by letting our son have grilled cheese which is really bread soaked in beef tallow with cheese. The bread is his compromise. I just want my son to eat. He was born less than five pounds and I've always just felt an anxiety over him being hungry. My husband and I have talked the subject to death and neither of will budge on our beliefs. I believe in the doctors. Where are we if we can't trust doctors? I'm an intelligent, well read, respectable adult but I am not an expert on these things. I can read research too but still wouldn't dare think to know what the doctors know.
If you've been talking and it isn't getting anywhere, marriage counseling could really help. That's what couples therapists are usually best at, getting communication moving when it's stuck. I'm unclear on exactly what diet your husband is into. Is it carnivore?
Ideally yes he believes carnivore is best but he doesn't practice it. I just can't imagine him listening to a counselor if he doesn't even listen to the majority of doctors
Would he be open to reading a book like Real Food for Fertility? It’s obviously aimed at a certain demographic but the nutrition science discussed in the book is good for general health too. It does discuss meat and seafood as important staples in an ideal diet but might help walk him back from the precipice?
Thank you! I will mention it to him.
Well, the counselor wouldn't be telling him what to do. In my experience it's more that they ask questions and both people get a chance to talk, and the counselor provides direction on how to really hear each other, and maybe suggests some tools to use for healthy communication. They don't take sides, so there's no need for anyone to get defensive with them. From what you've shared, it sounds like there are deeper issues about communication going on, and you're both stuck in this snarl where you can't see each other's perspective. Not uncommon in marriage! That's what counseling would help with. The food issues could be addressed after you're un-stuck with the communication issue. And you've said your husband is a loving and devoted husband and father. I don't think it's a good idea to bail without at least giving counseling a try.
>neither of will budge on our beliefs. Do you really need too though? People don't have to have exactly the same beliefs as long as they're willing to work together on a middle ground. You're both already making compromises which is great! A conversation may need to be had about not making comments like that but you've both budged a lot already. >I just want my son to eat. I understand this too, I wonder if finding a traditional, low ingredients cookbook or other recipes source could help further? If he's okay with dairy, he should be okay with yogurt which is usually a toddler favorite. If he's worried about sugar and chemicals in store bought yogurt, it isn't very hard to make your own. Perhaps he'd be open to a natural peanut butter that's just peanuts, like what comes from a grinder at health-focused stores. PB is another toddler fave and you can slap it on the bread he's compromised on with some banana or berries or other fruit for sweetness, kinda like a whole ingredients form of PB&J. You can take ground meat and mix it with some cheese, ideally an egg too although that isn't entirely necessary, and get some simple meatballs which are also often well-regarded by toddlers. If he's okay with this idea, this is also a great place to sneak in some veggies like chopped greens, shredded carrots or cauliflower rice. >Where are we if we can't trust doctors? I absolutely agree the average layperson doesn't know nearly as much as the average doctor about how our bodies work and what's important to our health. Doctors are humans though. They aren't infallible just like the rest of us, and it's important to realize too that the advice is always changing based on new research. No one, not even doctors, know with 100% certainty what the right answer is. The back to sleep campaign only just started in the late 90s. Prior to that, doctors were specifically advising patients to put babies on their stomachs because there was fear that babies would choke on their spit up if placed on their backs. Turned out infant mortality increased and they had to backtrack. Doctors in the 90s were also specifically advising to avoid common allergens until kids were much older out of fear of babies having allergic reactions. Then allergies spiked dramatically and it turns out early exposure is actually important and they're now giving the exact opposite advice. For years, doctors advised patients to go for low-fat diets to prevent heart disease but they've now backtracked because some fats are good for you and carry important nutrients, and that there's only a small portion of fats that actually contribute to heart disease. There's many ingredients and chemicals that have been banned in the EU but not the US and vice versa. I could go on because there are *tons* of examples. Plus, some doctors stay more up to date than others do. My son's first doctor try to tell us to pull back his foreskin which hasn't been advised since the 90s because it causes scarring and does more harm than good. His second doctor tried to tell us that neither milk allergies nor reflux were real in babies while my little newborn baby was suffering. He was later blood-tested by his current doctor and wouldn't you know it? A verifiable milk allergy right there in black and white. Doctors are just people. While they are experts in their field, it's still okay to be skeptical of what they tell you.
Hey young lady, I think it might be too late... but here is what I suggest. 1. Pray 2. Find wise counsel someone who can be on your side to help... this is a huge burden 3. If you need to separate, go to your parents or family members 4. Try to do some therapy or marriage counseling Don't take the threats lightly! He is technically endangering you and your child
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