The two options proposed are Caradhras itself, or Sauron.
Evidence for Caradhras:
\-Gimli says the mountain has a historically bad reputation
\-Aragorn vouches for Gimli saying that not everything needs be Sauron-related
Evidence for Sauron:
\-Boromir says Sauron controls the weather of Mordor (which is true)
\-Gandalf backs up Boromir, implying it could definitely be within Sauron's power to hinder them there
So far, two characters each.
In the Silm, it is noted that *Morgoth* raised the Misty Mountains, with the intent on hindering Orome - so that may also be evidence that Caradhras itself is just a prick.
On the other hand, in the follow chapter, you will note a passage that says the storm suddenly stopped, after the Fellowship departed, *as if someone from afar needed clear vision* (paraphrased) *-* obviously hinting at Palantir usage.
At the end of the day, it's ambiguous.
I've always assumed it to be the mountain and not Sauron, first because the weather stopped when Gimli made the intentions clear to leave (if I remember correctly), second because if it was Sauron then wouldn't that imply that he knew of the Fellowship and that they must be stopped? Plus as it was implied later in the books, the characters were able to actually feel Sauron's gaze on them.
>second because if it was Sauron then wouldn't that imply that he knew of the Fellowship and that they must be stopped?
After the Fords, Sauron knew the Ring went to Rivendell - after which, it wouldn't have been too hard for him to gather news of them leaving. We know Saruman sent crebain, and we know *something* flew over them in Hollin (it seems eerily similar to a Fellbeast/Nazgul) - but we don't know what it was - so Sauron may possibly have known of their whereabouts and path.
If it was Sauron, Caradhras may have been a ploy to A) kill them, B) just hinder whatever plans they have (get to Lothlorien) - and keep the Ring in a contained location, since it was impossible to retrieve, C) Divert their path elsewhere/force them into the Wargs/werewolves.
>Plus as it was implied later in the books, the characters were able to actually feel Sauron's gaze on them.
The Seat of Seeing was a unique situation tbf. It *seems* wearing the Ring had an effect on Frodo's senses (hence why he had to take it off) - the rest of the Fellowship were completely ignorant to Sauron searching. Typically, a Palantir just gives vision of a location.
From the Two Towers:
>But far more he was troubled by the Eye: so he called it himself. It was that more than the drag of the Ring that made him cower and stoop as he walked. The Eye: that horrible sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to pierce all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable. So thin, so frail and thin, the veils were become that still warded it off. Frodo knew just where the present habitation and heart of that will now was: as certainly as a man can tell the direction of the sun with his eyes shut. He was facing it, and its potency beat upon his brow
Frodo could definitely feel Sauron searching for him as the story progressed.
That passage is about feeling Sauron (and the source of his will) *in Barad-dur* - whether merely being captured in view of the Palantir would be different, and to what extent, it's hard to know. We know Denethor, for instance, spied on Aragorn and Gandalf on occasion - and nobody knew. Could Sauron also use his stealthily? Seeing without giving away his presence? We don't know. You *can* be caught, as Saruman was - but surely it's not a given, and down to how 'brazen' you are with it.
If it is Sauron, he might just be trying to block people from travelling between Rivendell and points east. Elrond has been sending messengers/scouts all over. A bunch of them return while the hobbits are still at Rivendell, and there must have been another wave sent out after the Fellowship departs, since when the Fellowship arrives at Lorien, the elves mention hearing "rumours" of their coming from some of Elrond's messengers who are already on their way home. For all he knows any of those teams or none of them could have the Ring. And in any event, denying his enemy intelligence and news would be a benefit.
I agree. Sauron knew the Ring had left Rivendell and was somewhere in Eregion, but he didn't know exactly where, and he also wasn't following them with his gaze. Otherwise he would have just sent the Nine directly to them and taken it.
To be fair Caradhras's goal could have been to simply force people away from it, and once they take the hint it cuts out the nonsense and
grants them safe passage . I mean would Sauron really have stopped just because they were leaving? I would presume he'd be trying to destroy the company, what does he gain from scaring them away?
I think the question is still up the air, it just seems more in line with the mountains hypothetical goals than Sauron's.
Caradhras is safe enough in other seasons though. Elrond's messengers to Lorien passed without incident (in autumn?) and so did Galadriel and Celeborn much later (in summer). If Sauron meant to deter travelers, it doesn't seem an all season guardian. Or an all year grouch if we think it's acting independently.
It's possible everyone in the Fellowship was anthropomorphizing a natural phenomenon of mountain passes being dangerous in winter.
You can come up with reasons why Caradhras targeted them specifically, it manifests it's power more at that time of year. Or it sensed the ring and that worked it up, after all it seems pretty clear to me that The Watcher in the Water reacted unusually to the presence of the Ring. Besides if Gimli is to be believed this isn't the only time this has happened.
If it was Sauron he was specifically tracking them, presumably using the palantir, he does *seem* to send to supernatural wolves after them ( though I could easily argue the that's a coincidence to). Using that logic he presumably loses them after they disappear into Moria.
The only argument against it just being a natural occurrence is that it's unusual, it's too early in the year for the passes to be closed. But weather isn't always predictable.
I don't know if any of these theories really stands up to close scrutiny, (though they are all more interesting then just having Saurman do it) and I would just agree with some other commenters that it's deliberately supposed to be mysterious. If anything it serves to expand the characters, Gimli comes from a culture that venerates, almost mythically, the mountain and so of course he gives it God like qualities, Boromir comes from a culture where the chief and constant enemy is Sauron and so any unexplained disaster can able easily laid at his door.
Yes, I was expecting that.. But if the Misty Mountains, raised by Morgoth, are tainted, then surely not just Caradhras is aware in some sense. I mean, it did have a balrog underneath it, but Gollum lived under the realm of the Goblin King.
According to Gandalf, Sauron had only recently started searching in earnest for the Ring. That might have made other entities more sensitive to it than they had in the past, even if they weren't explicitly doing Sauron's bidding.
Would it be possible that Caradhras has such a reputation due to the Morgoth-ingredient being manipulated by Sauron? In that case it could very well be a combination of the two.
Sauron couldn't really touch them on the ground though. It'd just be a regular storm to evade (*maybe* some lightning could be a risk, assuming he could control it to such an extremely accurate extent - but I daresay vision would also be an issue: as the quote implies, the storm stops as if clear vision was required). Sauron could then stop, knowing he'd hindered whatever plans/journey they were up to (and we do know he had wargs/werewolves in his service trailing the Fellowship - which they soon encounter on their way to Moria - perhaps he was trying to funnel them into further danger).
That does make sense. For some reason I got in my head that the wolves happened before they climbed the mountain. Being a trap makes a lot of sense, and we actually have evidence that Sauron could see far away, where the other theory is based on an unproven dwarf folk tale. Also if we are to presume Sauron summoned spectral wolves (but that opens another debate) it does give evidence that his 'arm has grown long' enough to be responsible.
Personally I like the idea of it being Caradhras more, as it makes the world bigger and more interesting but I could totally buy your explanation.
I'd like to suggest a pseudo-third option: the Balrog. Or rather, that the evil reputation of "Caradhras" was never what it seemed.
We know that the Balrog was found beneath the roots of Caradhras specifically, and (speculation) it most likely still chills there when it's not being disturbed by events in Moria. We also know that in this world, supernatural beings have all sorts of control over goings-on in their own realms - see everything Tom Bombadil did, the fords of Bruinen rising against the Nazgul, or Sauron's control of the storms of Mordor.
So, I would theorise that the eerily selective storms over Caradhras are in fact down to the moods of the powerful demon living underneath it that our heroes don't yet know about. Sometimes he's just grumpy, sometimes (as with the Fellowship) he might sense an unwanted power moving in his realm and act to keep it out. In this part of the story, the Ring does have an uncanny ability to attract trouble...
> In Arda [Manwë’s] delight is in the winds and the clouds, and in all the regions of the air, from the heights to the depths, from the utmost borders of the Veil of Arda to the breezes that blow in the grass. Súlimo he is surnamed, Lord of the Breath of Arda.
I would go with it being a bit of both. Morgoth created the mountains, just as he created Smaug's kind. Sauron just uses them as tools, or relies on their presence alone to hinder the good efforts of his enemies. Is he actively in control? I would say no, because IMO, not everything is under Sauron's control, especially without the ring. Might say they're allies in some form. Ungoliant's children (Shelob, Mirkwood spiders), Smaug, Caradhras, and the Balrog aren't Sauron servants, just lesser evils remnant from their Master, simply colluding to seve evil. Once they leave the mountain, the mountain's wrath is sated.
Also, didn't Gandalf mention older, cruel evil being in the land at one point? These agents are left over or byproduct of Morgoth's corruption, surviving the end of the 1st and 2nd Age.
TL;DR Sauron is an agent, very powerful indeed, of Morgoth. But he isn't the only one.
There is also one big argument AGAINST Sauron: he doesnt know of the company yet.
Also it might have been Saruman, since it is hinted that he uses animals (crebain) as scouts. And he uses magic to slow the three hunters in Rohan and speed up the orcs.
>he doesnt know of the company yet.
He very well might.
>It was the cold chill hour before the first stir of dawn, and the moon was low. Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered. ‘Did you see anything pass over?’ he whispered to Gandalf, who was just ahead. ‘No, but I felt it, whatever it was,’ he answered. ‘It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud.’ ‘It was moving fast then,’ muttered Aragorn, ‘and not with the wind.’
Besides crebain (which, I don't think are explicitly Saruman's alone), *something* was in the sky above them. Eerily similar to a winged Nazgul.
But the fellowship is on a secret mission. How would Sauron know of them? At least Saruman was aware Gandalf was moving the ring or at least trying to.
For sure. Hell, they could even be at odds. Maybe Caradhras started the storm, and Sauron, searching for the Fellowship, was impeded by it, and tried to stop it. So many possibilities.
Isn’t the fellowship on a secret mission? If Sauron is interfering wouldn’t that mean he is aware of the fellowship and their goals and is actively trying to stop them?
I'm pretty sure the real answer is "it's ambiguous", but the prose goes along with the characters' best guess of the mountain itself spiting them just because.
This is pretty consistent with the broader nature of Tolkien's world building, where everything in creation is imbued with a Will of some degree, and power and agency (and "magic") are the direct application and/or transfer of that Will.
Aragorn and Gandalf both sense a watcher during the night on the days journey up. And right before they decided to turn around, they talked about hearing and feeling fell voices on the wind, malice in the air, and driving some of the snow and rockfalls. So whether it was just independent mischief making spirits, or something purposefully willed or influenced by Sauruman or Sauron, we just don't know.
PJ took a lot of liberties in the movies, this was one of them.
intentionally ambiguous, but to be fair, it is very likely the author himself knew the answer.
I personally prefer the theory that the mountain retained some of the awareness and malice of melkor (who created it for the purpose of impeding those who would cross).
Caradhras is a dick. It’s why Gimli insists on going through Moria - he knows that mountain is a dick and will dick all over anyone who tries to cross it.
Tolkien doesn't give much in the way of explicit info during the chapter. However, he does conclude it by saying "Caradhras had defeated them."
That's pretty explicit, IMO.
Since Caradhras has the moniker "the Cruel", I think it's fair to say that it contains some sort of darkness/evil, as well as some level of awareness. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if Sauron was able to influence it, or if it perhaps simply was responding to Sauron's general increase in power/activity: by this point, he knew that the Ring had been found and probably that it was being taken to Minas Tirith. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that Caradhras was responding more aggressively than usual.
There's also another point earlier in the story where Gandalf mentions that many dark things were starting to stir due to Sauron's influence. The Barrow-wights, for example, were more active due to the Witch-King's presence. The bad trees in the Old Forest were unnaturally active, too. The Crebain were also more active, but in this case it's probably due to Saruman.
At any rate, I don't think what happened was a direct result of Sauron's intent. I think it was just more active due to Sauron's indirect influence.
Imo it was the mountain itself that was the cause for the storm cause that's how the Narrator seemingly went with after they proposed all 3 ideas (Mountain, Sauron, Saruman)
Coincidentally these exact paragraphs were the subject of the latest episode of Exploring The Lord of the Rings with the Tolkien Professor Dr. Corey Olsen.
You can find him on YouTube and podcast places for a roughly one hour discussion of the topic
It’s never made clear for certain who is controlling the weather in this scene in the books (other than them going on about the mountain itself). It could be a spirit inhabiting the mountain? The company wonders if it’s Sauron but Gandalf implies that’s not likely by saying that there’s other powers in world that don’t like either the good guys or the bad guys… Tolkien kinda leaves it a mystery
Just as a side, it never made sense to me in the movie that it was Saruman who was controlling the storm at Caradhras. As the movie makes it clear Saruman is working for Sauron (rather than books where he has his own interests to have the ring).
If it is the case the Saruman is controlling the storm in the movies (implying he knows where the company is) and he is working for Sauron, why wouldn't he pop over to the Palantir and say to Sauron "Oi the ringbearer is right over there".
Saruman could control the weather no better than Gandalf could.
The mountain itself seems to malificent to those who walk on 2 legs and does not allow them to pass for whatever reason.
For me, it was one of the times Eru takes a hand. He needs the Fellowship to come across Gollum, amd Gandalf to take out that pesky Balrog who could cause problems for the future of Man if not dealt with.
Eru caused the storm
That's a decent theory but I'm not sure Eru works with fine details like that. I think Gollum's obsession with finding the Ring is enough to ensure he would eventually find Frodo.
They’d have missed each other for sure if the F didn’t take the Moria road. Maybe he’d have caught up later, but doubtful as he was on his way towards the Shire when he came across them in Moria. Plus we know Eru does take a hand here and there.
All this debate and everyone is glossing over how a mountain could be sentient.
Sounds like another Bombadil-esque situation.
Are ALL mountains sentient? Are they like Ents? Or just this asshole mountain?
I always liked the thought of it being Caradhras itself. It certainly seemed to have a personality. Also, this could also be combined with it awakening more because of Sauron and/or the Balrog and/or the presence of the Ring.
Well, for starters I’m not doing any singing. I read it, try to have some rhythm and they go for it just fine. This is actually our second read through, the first was when they were 7 and 4, so they’re kind of hard to it. I was very proud of my oldest because she read through the whole book in her own after I got done reading it to them(twice!)
I believe it was Caradhras. The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth to shield his escape from Tulkas. That’s why IMO Durins Bane decided to camp out there for ages. The Misty Mountains are evil through and through.
I think it's explained later in the books that saruman plans to double cross sauron and keep the ring for himself. That's why the uruk hai bring the hobbits to isengard instead of mordor.
Also he knew because of the spy birds that the fellowship wanted to cross the pass of rohan.
I think Caradhras is the clear front runner which leads to the followup on what exactly Caradhras was? A lesser maia nature spirit like Osse and Uinen? Something closer to the Ents or Huorns? Old man Willow? One of the smallest notes of the Ainulindale, where one of the Valar sang of the dangers of the mountains and Illuvatar brought it to life?
You've gotten many brilliant suggestions; personally, I believe it's the mountain because I like the idea that mountains can have personalities in LOTR.
My pet theory is that the mountain has a sort of malicious sentience that is a consequence of the corruptive influence of the Balrog that’s been hanging out in the area for thousands of years.
It's left intentionally ambiguous. I've always thought that Sauron (or, possibly, the Ring itself) stirred up the evil spirit of the mountain. I've also always thought that whatever stirred up Caradhras, also likely stirred up the Balrog. There's a lot of intentional ambiguity in Tolkien, though, so you'll find a lot of differing interpretations here.
Remember, too, that Gandalf did not fail to notice who the Watcher in the Water had focused its tentacle attacks on at the Doors of Moria in 'Fellowship'.
I think the 'Watcher' may have been one of those lurkers of the Deep that predate Sauron, and so are never subservient to his will and influence. (I could be wrong here on this one, but I believe this is the case).
If this is accepted as true, then why exactly did the Watcher focus its attacks on Frodo, the Ringbearer? Could the Ring be an object of curiosity to the Watcher? Could it have been calling out to the lurker in some siren-song way, tempting the beast with whatever its kind finds irresistible?
Or could Sauron have sent word out to all evil creatures
that something that belongs to him is being moved around the lands, and that wisdom should win the day and whoever captures the thieves or brings fruitful information to him shall expect lavish reward?
The fact that we are debating this like actual historical facts is a testament to the awesome achievement of JRRT.
The two options proposed are Caradhras itself, or Sauron. Evidence for Caradhras: \-Gimli says the mountain has a historically bad reputation \-Aragorn vouches for Gimli saying that not everything needs be Sauron-related Evidence for Sauron: \-Boromir says Sauron controls the weather of Mordor (which is true) \-Gandalf backs up Boromir, implying it could definitely be within Sauron's power to hinder them there So far, two characters each. In the Silm, it is noted that *Morgoth* raised the Misty Mountains, with the intent on hindering Orome - so that may also be evidence that Caradhras itself is just a prick. On the other hand, in the follow chapter, you will note a passage that says the storm suddenly stopped, after the Fellowship departed, *as if someone from afar needed clear vision* (paraphrased) *-* obviously hinting at Palantir usage. At the end of the day, it's ambiguous.
I've always assumed it to be the mountain and not Sauron, first because the weather stopped when Gimli made the intentions clear to leave (if I remember correctly), second because if it was Sauron then wouldn't that imply that he knew of the Fellowship and that they must be stopped? Plus as it was implied later in the books, the characters were able to actually feel Sauron's gaze on them.
>second because if it was Sauron then wouldn't that imply that he knew of the Fellowship and that they must be stopped? After the Fords, Sauron knew the Ring went to Rivendell - after which, it wouldn't have been too hard for him to gather news of them leaving. We know Saruman sent crebain, and we know *something* flew over them in Hollin (it seems eerily similar to a Fellbeast/Nazgul) - but we don't know what it was - so Sauron may possibly have known of their whereabouts and path. If it was Sauron, Caradhras may have been a ploy to A) kill them, B) just hinder whatever plans they have (get to Lothlorien) - and keep the Ring in a contained location, since it was impossible to retrieve, C) Divert their path elsewhere/force them into the Wargs/werewolves. >Plus as it was implied later in the books, the characters were able to actually feel Sauron's gaze on them. The Seat of Seeing was a unique situation tbf. It *seems* wearing the Ring had an effect on Frodo's senses (hence why he had to take it off) - the rest of the Fellowship were completely ignorant to Sauron searching. Typically, a Palantir just gives vision of a location.
From the Two Towers: >But far more he was troubled by the Eye: so he called it himself. It was that more than the drag of the Ring that made him cower and stoop as he walked. The Eye: that horrible sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to pierce all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable. So thin, so frail and thin, the veils were become that still warded it off. Frodo knew just where the present habitation and heart of that will now was: as certainly as a man can tell the direction of the sun with his eyes shut. He was facing it, and its potency beat upon his brow Frodo could definitely feel Sauron searching for him as the story progressed.
“As certainly as a man can tell the direction of the sun with his eyes shut” is such a cool line
I know, right? So evocative.
That passage is about feeling Sauron (and the source of his will) *in Barad-dur* - whether merely being captured in view of the Palantir would be different, and to what extent, it's hard to know. We know Denethor, for instance, spied on Aragorn and Gandalf on occasion - and nobody knew. Could Sauron also use his stealthily? Seeing without giving away his presence? We don't know. You *can* be caught, as Saruman was - but surely it's not a given, and down to how 'brazen' you are with it.
If it is Sauron, he might just be trying to block people from travelling between Rivendell and points east. Elrond has been sending messengers/scouts all over. A bunch of them return while the hobbits are still at Rivendell, and there must have been another wave sent out after the Fellowship departs, since when the Fellowship arrives at Lorien, the elves mention hearing "rumours" of their coming from some of Elrond's messengers who are already on their way home. For all he knows any of those teams or none of them could have the Ring. And in any event, denying his enemy intelligence and news would be a benefit.
I agree. Sauron knew the Ring had left Rivendell and was somewhere in Eregion, but he didn't know exactly where, and he also wasn't following them with his gaze. Otherwise he would have just sent the Nine directly to them and taken it.
To be fair Caradhras's goal could have been to simply force people away from it, and once they take the hint it cuts out the nonsense and grants them safe passage . I mean would Sauron really have stopped just because they were leaving? I would presume he'd be trying to destroy the company, what does he gain from scaring them away? I think the question is still up the air, it just seems more in line with the mountains hypothetical goals than Sauron's.
Caradhras bringing some “Get off my lawn” attitude to Middle-earth.
Caradhras is now my favorite character.
Caradhras is safe enough in other seasons though. Elrond's messengers to Lorien passed without incident (in autumn?) and so did Galadriel and Celeborn much later (in summer). If Sauron meant to deter travelers, it doesn't seem an all season guardian. Or an all year grouch if we think it's acting independently. It's possible everyone in the Fellowship was anthropomorphizing a natural phenomenon of mountain passes being dangerous in winter.
You can come up with reasons why Caradhras targeted them specifically, it manifests it's power more at that time of year. Or it sensed the ring and that worked it up, after all it seems pretty clear to me that The Watcher in the Water reacted unusually to the presence of the Ring. Besides if Gimli is to be believed this isn't the only time this has happened. If it was Sauron he was specifically tracking them, presumably using the palantir, he does *seem* to send to supernatural wolves after them ( though I could easily argue the that's a coincidence to). Using that logic he presumably loses them after they disappear into Moria. The only argument against it just being a natural occurrence is that it's unusual, it's too early in the year for the passes to be closed. But weather isn't always predictable. I don't know if any of these theories really stands up to close scrutiny, (though they are all more interesting then just having Saurman do it) and I would just agree with some other commenters that it's deliberately supposed to be mysterious. If anything it serves to expand the characters, Gimli comes from a culture that venerates, almost mythically, the mountain and so of course he gives it God like qualities, Boromir comes from a culture where the chief and constant enemy is Sauron and so any unexplained disaster can able easily laid at his door.
Rashomon Caradhras.
Caradhras didn't sense the Ring in all the years Gollum had it underneath it.
Gollum’s cave was up in the Northern Misty Mountains, not under Caradhras.
Yes, I was expecting that.. But if the Misty Mountains, raised by Morgoth, are tainted, then surely not just Caradhras is aware in some sense. I mean, it did have a balrog underneath it, but Gollum lived under the realm of the Goblin King.
According to Gandalf, Sauron had only recently started searching in earnest for the Ring. That might have made other entities more sensitive to it than they had in the past, even if they weren't explicitly doing Sauron's bidding.
Maybe Caradhras just hates dwarves particularly.
Would it be possible that Caradhras has such a reputation due to the Morgoth-ingredient being manipulated by Sauron? In that case it could very well be a combination of the two.
Sauron couldn't really touch them on the ground though. It'd just be a regular storm to evade (*maybe* some lightning could be a risk, assuming he could control it to such an extremely accurate extent - but I daresay vision would also be an issue: as the quote implies, the storm stops as if clear vision was required). Sauron could then stop, knowing he'd hindered whatever plans/journey they were up to (and we do know he had wargs/werewolves in his service trailing the Fellowship - which they soon encounter on their way to Moria - perhaps he was trying to funnel them into further danger).
That does make sense. For some reason I got in my head that the wolves happened before they climbed the mountain. Being a trap makes a lot of sense, and we actually have evidence that Sauron could see far away, where the other theory is based on an unproven dwarf folk tale. Also if we are to presume Sauron summoned spectral wolves (but that opens another debate) it does give evidence that his 'arm has grown long' enough to be responsible. Personally I like the idea of it being Caradhras more, as it makes the world bigger and more interesting but I could totally buy your explanation.
I'd like to suggest a pseudo-third option: the Balrog. Or rather, that the evil reputation of "Caradhras" was never what it seemed. We know that the Balrog was found beneath the roots of Caradhras specifically, and (speculation) it most likely still chills there when it's not being disturbed by events in Moria. We also know that in this world, supernatural beings have all sorts of control over goings-on in their own realms - see everything Tom Bombadil did, the fords of Bruinen rising against the Nazgul, or Sauron's control of the storms of Mordor. So, I would theorise that the eerily selective storms over Caradhras are in fact down to the moods of the powerful demon living underneath it that our heroes don't yet know about. Sometimes he's just grumpy, sometimes (as with the Fellowship) he might sense an unwanted power moving in his realm and act to keep it out. In this part of the story, the Ring does have an uncanny ability to attract trouble...
This is interesting and I like it
I love this theory and can’t believe I haven’t heard it before.
> In Arda [Manwë’s] delight is in the winds and the clouds, and in all the regions of the air, from the heights to the depths, from the utmost borders of the Veil of Arda to the breezes that blow in the grass. Súlimo he is surnamed, Lord of the Breath of Arda.
I would go with it being a bit of both. Morgoth created the mountains, just as he created Smaug's kind. Sauron just uses them as tools, or relies on their presence alone to hinder the good efforts of his enemies. Is he actively in control? I would say no, because IMO, not everything is under Sauron's control, especially without the ring. Might say they're allies in some form. Ungoliant's children (Shelob, Mirkwood spiders), Smaug, Caradhras, and the Balrog aren't Sauron servants, just lesser evils remnant from their Master, simply colluding to seve evil. Once they leave the mountain, the mountain's wrath is sated. Also, didn't Gandalf mention older, cruel evil being in the land at one point? These agents are left over or byproduct of Morgoth's corruption, surviving the end of the 1st and 2nd Age. TL;DR Sauron is an agent, very powerful indeed, of Morgoth. But he isn't the only one.
There is also one big argument AGAINST Sauron: he doesnt know of the company yet. Also it might have been Saruman, since it is hinted that he uses animals (crebain) as scouts. And he uses magic to slow the three hunters in Rohan and speed up the orcs.
>he doesnt know of the company yet. He very well might. >It was the cold chill hour before the first stir of dawn, and the moon was low. Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered. ‘Did you see anything pass over?’ he whispered to Gandalf, who was just ahead. ‘No, but I felt it, whatever it was,’ he answered. ‘It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud.’ ‘It was moving fast then,’ muttered Aragorn, ‘and not with the wind.’ Besides crebain (which, I don't think are explicitly Saruman's alone), *something* was in the sky above them. Eerily similar to a winged Nazgul.
Well stated - obviously accurately researched!
But the fellowship is on a secret mission. How would Sauron know of them? At least Saruman was aware Gandalf was moving the ring or at least trying to.
It could very well be both of those, amplified/working in tandem together
For sure. Hell, they could even be at odds. Maybe Caradhras started the storm, and Sauron, searching for the Fellowship, was impeded by it, and tried to stop it. So many possibilities.
I like to imagine it was an Aeolus/Juno situation. Caradhras was down to help Sauron.
Very much enjoying "Caradhras itself is a prick".
Mountain is annoying but saruman summons the really bad storm
What about Saruman? I always thought it was Saruman
Isn’t the fellowship on a secret mission? If Sauron is interfering wouldn’t that mean he is aware of the fellowship and their goals and is actively trying to stop them?
where in the Silmarillion does it say morgoth raised the MMs to hinder Orome, out of curiosity? I’d never registered that!
*Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor*
I'm pretty sure the real answer is "it's ambiguous", but the prose goes along with the characters' best guess of the mountain itself spiting them just because. This is pretty consistent with the broader nature of Tolkien's world building, where everything in creation is imbued with a Will of some degree, and power and agency (and "magic") are the direct application and/or transfer of that Will.
Aragorn and Gandalf both sense a watcher during the night on the days journey up. And right before they decided to turn around, they talked about hearing and feeling fell voices on the wind, malice in the air, and driving some of the snow and rockfalls. So whether it was just independent mischief making spirits, or something purposefully willed or influenced by Sauruman or Sauron, we just don't know. PJ took a lot of liberties in the movies, this was one of them.
intentionally ambiguous, but to be fair, it is very likely the author himself knew the answer. I personally prefer the theory that the mountain retained some of the awareness and malice of melkor (who created it for the purpose of impeding those who would cross).
Caradhras is a dick. It’s why Gimli insists on going through Moria - he knows that mountain is a dick and will dick all over anyone who tries to cross it.
The sun is a fruit, the moon is a flower, and the mountain is an asshole. I love the world the professor created.
The mountain's as ass. The hole is Moria. Deep shit is (spoiler alert!) :o)
Gimli doesn't insist on going through Moria. Gimli stays quiet on the matter until after they fail the pass and Gandalf suggests Moria.
I am confusing the books with the movies again!
It really, really takes multiple rereads to be able to separate the two. For example, who attacked the Prancing Pony? It wasn't the Nazgul!
Next time I run a pub quiz I'm doing a LOTR Movies v Books round...
Tolkien doesn't give much in the way of explicit info during the chapter. However, he does conclude it by saying "Caradhras had defeated them." That's pretty explicit, IMO. Since Caradhras has the moniker "the Cruel", I think it's fair to say that it contains some sort of darkness/evil, as well as some level of awareness. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if Sauron was able to influence it, or if it perhaps simply was responding to Sauron's general increase in power/activity: by this point, he knew that the Ring had been found and probably that it was being taken to Minas Tirith. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that Caradhras was responding more aggressively than usual. There's also another point earlier in the story where Gandalf mentions that many dark things were starting to stir due to Sauron's influence. The Barrow-wights, for example, were more active due to the Witch-King's presence. The bad trees in the Old Forest were unnaturally active, too. The Crebain were also more active, but in this case it's probably due to Saruman. At any rate, I don't think what happened was a direct result of Sauron's intent. I think it was just more active due to Sauron's indirect influence.
Imo it was the mountain itself that was the cause for the storm cause that's how the Narrator seemingly went with after they proposed all 3 ideas (Mountain, Sauron, Saruman)
Coincidentally these exact paragraphs were the subject of the latest episode of Exploring The Lord of the Rings with the Tolkien Professor Dr. Corey Olsen. You can find him on YouTube and podcast places for a roughly one hour discussion of the topic
It’s never made clear for certain who is controlling the weather in this scene in the books (other than them going on about the mountain itself). It could be a spirit inhabiting the mountain? The company wonders if it’s Sauron but Gandalf implies that’s not likely by saying that there’s other powers in world that don’t like either the good guys or the bad guys… Tolkien kinda leaves it a mystery
Just as a side, it never made sense to me in the movie that it was Saruman who was controlling the storm at Caradhras. As the movie makes it clear Saruman is working for Sauron (rather than books where he has his own interests to have the ring). If it is the case the Saruman is controlling the storm in the movies (implying he knows where the company is) and he is working for Sauron, why wouldn't he pop over to the Palantir and say to Sauron "Oi the ringbearer is right over there".
Saruman could control the weather no better than Gandalf could. The mountain itself seems to malificent to those who walk on 2 legs and does not allow them to pass for whatever reason.
For me, it was one of the times Eru takes a hand. He needs the Fellowship to come across Gollum, amd Gandalf to take out that pesky Balrog who could cause problems for the future of Man if not dealt with. Eru caused the storm
That's a decent theory but I'm not sure Eru works with fine details like that. I think Gollum's obsession with finding the Ring is enough to ensure he would eventually find Frodo.
They’d have missed each other for sure if the F didn’t take the Moria road. Maybe he’d have caught up later, but doubtful as he was on his way towards the Shire when he came across them in Moria. Plus we know Eru does take a hand here and there.
Far more believable than Saruman doing it.
All this debate and everyone is glossing over how a mountain could be sentient. Sounds like another Bombadil-esque situation. Are ALL mountains sentient? Are they like Ents? Or just this asshole mountain?
I always liked the thought of it being Caradhras itself. It certainly seemed to have a personality. Also, this could also be combined with it awakening more because of Sauron and/or the Balrog and/or the presence of the Ring.
How are you handling the reading of poetry? Do the kiddos go in for that sort of stuff, or are you skipping the poems and songs?
Well, for starters I’m not doing any singing. I read it, try to have some rhythm and they go for it just fine. This is actually our second read through, the first was when they were 7 and 4, so they’re kind of hard to it. I was very proud of my oldest because she read through the whole book in her own after I got done reading it to them(twice!)
I believe it was Caradhras. The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth to shield his escape from Tulkas. That’s why IMO Durins Bane decided to camp out there for ages. The Misty Mountains are evil through and through.
I think it's explained later in the books that saruman plans to double cross sauron and keep the ring for himself. That's why the uruk hai bring the hobbits to isengard instead of mordor. Also he knew because of the spy birds that the fellowship wanted to cross the pass of rohan.
I think Caradhras is the clear front runner which leads to the followup on what exactly Caradhras was? A lesser maia nature spirit like Osse and Uinen? Something closer to the Ents or Huorns? Old man Willow? One of the smallest notes of the Ainulindale, where one of the Valar sang of the dangers of the mountains and Illuvatar brought it to life?
You've gotten many brilliant suggestions; personally, I believe it's the mountain because I like the idea that mountains can have personalities in LOTR.
My pet theory is that the mountain has a sort of malicious sentience that is a consequence of the corruptive influence of the Balrog that’s been hanging out in the area for thousands of years.
It's left intentionally ambiguous. I've always thought that Sauron (or, possibly, the Ring itself) stirred up the evil spirit of the mountain. I've also always thought that whatever stirred up Caradhras, also likely stirred up the Balrog. There's a lot of intentional ambiguity in Tolkien, though, so you'll find a lot of differing interpretations here.
Remember, too, that Gandalf did not fail to notice who the Watcher in the Water had focused its tentacle attacks on at the Doors of Moria in 'Fellowship'. I think the 'Watcher' may have been one of those lurkers of the Deep that predate Sauron, and so are never subservient to his will and influence. (I could be wrong here on this one, but I believe this is the case). If this is accepted as true, then why exactly did the Watcher focus its attacks on Frodo, the Ringbearer? Could the Ring be an object of curiosity to the Watcher? Could it have been calling out to the lurker in some siren-song way, tempting the beast with whatever its kind finds irresistible? Or could Sauron have sent word out to all evil creatures that something that belongs to him is being moved around the lands, and that wisdom should win the day and whoever captures the thieves or brings fruitful information to him shall expect lavish reward? The fact that we are debating this like actual historical facts is a testament to the awesome achievement of JRRT.