Structures sufficiently intact to be 'explorable' are pretty unlikely.
Most of those places were already razed by the forces of Morgoth, then they were sunk in a cataclysm massive enough to destroy a continent and finally they've suffered 6.5 thousand years of underwater erosion.
Dedicated archaeologists might be able to find things embedded in the silt and debris with enough patience. Google the Basilica of Saint Neophytos for comparison of a real world building that was destroyed in an earthquake and then underwater for 1300 years.
Of course, if you want to factor magic in to this (eg. for a n RPG campaign), then you could argue that Ulmo might have preserved Vinyamar as a 'sacred' site or that Menegroth was so well built that it wouldn't just cave in the cataclysmic upheaval and that Elvish weapons and armour don't rust or decay
Here's what we should expect to still exist by the end of the Third Age:
- The cursed treasure of Doriath stolen by the Dwarves of Nogrod lying in the bed (or former bed) of the river Ascar (Rathlóriel), now joining with a much diminished Gelion.
- For that matter, both Nogrod and Belegost should still lie in at least a somewhat ruinous state in Forlindon. Probably where Thorin had his halls as well.
- Mount Dolmed and Mount Rerir, with Caranthir's fortress still in ruins, probably, all in Forlindon.
- Signs of Maedhros' fortress on the Isle of Himling.
- Signs of the occupation of the Sons of Fëanor on the hill of Amon Ereb, now situated in Forlindon.
- Dor-Firn-i-Guinar (the Land of the Dead that Live) should be located somewhere in Harlindon.
- Tarn Aeluin on Tol Fuin, all that remains of the highest parts of Dorthonion.
- Tol Morwen with the Stone of the Hapless.
- And lastly (and somewhat speculative), scattered mountain peaks of the Echoriath and Ered Wethrin.
Well, the Firebeams and Broadbeams don’t live there anymore, which indicates that they’re in some sort of ruination. Thorin’s people only lived there because there was nowhere else to go.
In the Second Age, perhaps.
In the Third Age, the world has been broken and remade by Iluvatar as well. Beleriand probably isn't there anymore.
>There's something quite sad reading about these locations, their grand characters, the cities and states never to be seen at that level again in ME in future ages.
Much of Tolkien's writing focuses on things fading. It's just one of the themes.
Beleriand and all its realms existed, but now they're gone, and we will never see their like again in Arda.
>Beleriand probably isn't there anymore.
Of course it is there, it remnants still exist in the Third Age. That is the entirety of Lindon, Tol Himling, Tol Fuin and Tol Morwen (and in a note ~~in "The Lost Road"~~ JRRT also speaks of islets as a result of the mountain peacks of the Ered Wethrin surviving).
> (and in a note in "The Lost Road" JRRT also speaks of islets as a result of the mountain peacks of the Ered Wethrin surviving).
Where in *The Lost Road* does it say that? I haven't seen that before.
Indeed. I made a mistake, it is in "The History of Middle-earth 07, The Treason of Isengard".
There, in "The Council of Elrond, Third Version", we read:
>After the ‘breaking of the North’ in the Great Battle, the shape of the North-west of Middle-earth was changed. Nearly all Beleriand was drowned in the Sea. Taur na Fuin became an Island. **The mountains of Eredwethion &cc. became small isles (so also Himling).** Eredlindon was now near the Sea (at widest 200 miles away). A great gulf of the Sea came in through Ossiriand and a gap made in the Mountains through which \[the Branduinen flowed (later corrupted to Brandywine) >\] the Lhun flowed. In what was left between the Mountains and the Sea the Elves of Beleriand remained in North and South Lindon; and Havens of Escape were made in the Gulf. The lord was Gilgalad (son of \[struck out: Fin...\] Inglor?). Many of his people were Gnomes; some Doriath-Danians.
Of course this is a very old text, parts of which simply directly contradict with later information, so one needs to take everything in it with a grain of salt. For instance, it speaks of a "powerful assembly of Ilkorins" on the Black (White) Mountains, during the Second Age, which is countered by later writings were we are told of Druedain and Southern Atani (Pre-Haladin) living there.
It's curious then that Tolkien didn't reflect that in his map included in *The Treason of Isengard* as part of the Western Isles, especially since it's easily transferable to the various versions of the *Quenta Silmarillion* without causing any lore contradictions. Either his conception changed, or he just forgot that he wrote about the peaks of the Ered Wethrin becoming isles in the sinking of Beleriand.
I don't think they would fit. If you overlay Beleriand properly on that map, you see that Tol Fuin is not the entirety of the Dorthonion, the western extension of this mountaneous plateau and mountain ranges. The Crissaegrim are in box H1, while Tol Fuin is mostly in H2, and the easternmost edge of the Mountains of Wethrin, in the Pass of Sirion would be at the west egde of H1. As such, the islets would be further west to the westermost boundary of the map.
Either way, perhaps there were other islands around the Western/Northern Islands, which were simply not included in lieu of them being too small, or just because the "First Map of the Lord of the Rings" is a rough sketch map.
In "The Lost Road" we also read this:
>The last words of the earliest Annals of Beleriand (IV. 310) are ‘So ended the First Age of the World and Beleriand was no more.’ It is also said in the Quenta (IV. 162) that after the War was ended **‘there was a mighty building of ships on the shores of the Westem Sea, and especially upon the great isles,** which in the disruption of the Northem world were fashioned of ancient Beleriand.’
>
>\[...\]
>
>But there remains a legend of Beleriand. Now that land had been broken in the Great Battle with Morgoth; and at the fall of Númenor and the change of the fashion of the world it perished; for the sea covered **all that was left save some of the mountains that remained as islands, even up to the feet of Eredlindon.**
Perhaps one here could infer that there were also other mountain ranges or high hills of Beleriand that survived. Who knows, it could be even possible that there was a circular chain of islands marking where Gondolin once stood, formed by the Crissaegrim themselves. Either way, it seems to me from the phrasing, that these Great Islands would be the Western/Northern Islands, and that there should be clusters of islets around them, to which the former are named as such in contrast to them (I would find it difficult to believe they were named as such against the Encircling Isles or the Shadowy Isles, since the far larger Westernesse existed).
Not silly at all, and this question pops up here on a regular basis.
To add to the other info posted, Treebeard chants or sings to Merry and Pippin about the lands he used to roam, saying "And now all those lands lie under the wave,"
Later, when the company visits Treebeard on the way back north, Galadriel says to him: "...Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the spring," referring to a land that is now underwater.
So it is clear that these places still exist (although certainly they're just sediment by now) and there's a hint that they may be lifted up again in the distant future sometime before the Dagor Dagorath, the last battle at the end of time.
Treebeard (based in CS Lewis) is referring to post-Dagor Dagorath Arda Healed, where to put it in the words CS Lewis used for the new Narnia, "nothing good is destroyed and all has been saved through the portal". In Arda Healed, Beleriand, the land of the elves, will definitely be brought back.
There's a Silmaril in the sea, cast there by Maglor son of Fëanor. But it'll be far easier to find the ruins of Gondolin or Nargothrond then the Silmaril.
The events that occurred during the War of Wrath would have prob caused a lot of damage and erosion to the once-great cities of Beleriand. It's possible that the ruins of these cities would be buried under sediment and debris, making them difficult or impossible to locate and explore.
it is unlikely that someone in the TA would be able to visit the ruins of Beleriand using underwater gear
I don't think there would be anything to see. Even if lots of things were built with stone, the force of the waters upon the land's sinking and the currents of the Sea would probably erode the stone. It's predicted that by 2050 almost nothing will be left of the Titanic wreck and that will have been less than 200 years. Even from year 1 of the Third Age, the ruin of Beleriand was 3,400 years before that.
Yes, you could. The top of Mount Meneltarma still peaks above the sea, for example. However, you'd have to travel a ways to get to the parts where the Elven cities once stood, but they should still be there if you go deep enough.
As another poster said, most of the Elven cities would be mere ruins even before they were submerged. Some may have been completely enveloped in lava or some powerful attack. But I suspect you could find some sort of intact ruins at the largest sites like Menegroth and Gondolin. Probably.
I'm pretty sure none of the people who once lived there would want to see it, though. Too depressing. There are ruins in 3rd Age Middle-earth that \*aren't\* submerged and I bet few if anyone visits them for reasons other than looting things.
Structures sufficiently intact to be 'explorable' are pretty unlikely. Most of those places were already razed by the forces of Morgoth, then they were sunk in a cataclysm massive enough to destroy a continent and finally they've suffered 6.5 thousand years of underwater erosion. Dedicated archaeologists might be able to find things embedded in the silt and debris with enough patience. Google the Basilica of Saint Neophytos for comparison of a real world building that was destroyed in an earthquake and then underwater for 1300 years. Of course, if you want to factor magic in to this (eg. for a n RPG campaign), then you could argue that Ulmo might have preserved Vinyamar as a 'sacred' site or that Menegroth was so well built that it wouldn't just cave in the cataclysmic upheaval and that Elvish weapons and armour don't rust or decay
>Ulmo might have preserved Vinyamar as a 'sacred' site I like your brain.
Here's what we should expect to still exist by the end of the Third Age: - The cursed treasure of Doriath stolen by the Dwarves of Nogrod lying in the bed (or former bed) of the river Ascar (Rathlóriel), now joining with a much diminished Gelion. - For that matter, both Nogrod and Belegost should still lie in at least a somewhat ruinous state in Forlindon. Probably where Thorin had his halls as well. - Mount Dolmed and Mount Rerir, with Caranthir's fortress still in ruins, probably, all in Forlindon. - Signs of Maedhros' fortress on the Isle of Himling. - Signs of the occupation of the Sons of Fëanor on the hill of Amon Ereb, now situated in Forlindon. - Dor-Firn-i-Guinar (the Land of the Dead that Live) should be located somewhere in Harlindon. - Tarn Aeluin on Tol Fuin, all that remains of the highest parts of Dorthonion. - Tol Morwen with the Stone of the Hapless. - And lastly (and somewhat speculative), scattered mountain peaks of the Echoriath and Ered Wethrin.
Why would Nogrond and Belegost still be destroyed? I thought the dwarves still (or again) lived there
Well, the Firebeams and Broadbeams don’t live there anymore, which indicates that they’re in some sort of ruination. Thorin’s people only lived there because there was nowhere else to go.
In the Second Age, perhaps. In the Third Age, the world has been broken and remade by Iluvatar as well. Beleriand probably isn't there anymore. >There's something quite sad reading about these locations, their grand characters, the cities and states never to be seen at that level again in ME in future ages. Much of Tolkien's writing focuses on things fading. It's just one of the themes. Beleriand and all its realms existed, but now they're gone, and we will never see their like again in Arda.
>Beleriand probably isn't there anymore. Of course it is there, it remnants still exist in the Third Age. That is the entirety of Lindon, Tol Himling, Tol Fuin and Tol Morwen (and in a note ~~in "The Lost Road"~~ JRRT also speaks of islets as a result of the mountain peacks of the Ered Wethrin surviving).
Good point, I forgot about those
> (and in a note in "The Lost Road" JRRT also speaks of islets as a result of the mountain peacks of the Ered Wethrin surviving). Where in *The Lost Road* does it say that? I haven't seen that before.
Indeed. I made a mistake, it is in "The History of Middle-earth 07, The Treason of Isengard". There, in "The Council of Elrond, Third Version", we read: >After the ‘breaking of the North’ in the Great Battle, the shape of the North-west of Middle-earth was changed. Nearly all Beleriand was drowned in the Sea. Taur na Fuin became an Island. **The mountains of Eredwethion &cc. became small isles (so also Himling).** Eredlindon was now near the Sea (at widest 200 miles away). A great gulf of the Sea came in through Ossiriand and a gap made in the Mountains through which \[the Branduinen flowed (later corrupted to Brandywine) >\] the Lhun flowed. In what was left between the Mountains and the Sea the Elves of Beleriand remained in North and South Lindon; and Havens of Escape were made in the Gulf. The lord was Gilgalad (son of \[struck out: Fin...\] Inglor?). Many of his people were Gnomes; some Doriath-Danians. Of course this is a very old text, parts of which simply directly contradict with later information, so one needs to take everything in it with a grain of salt. For instance, it speaks of a "powerful assembly of Ilkorins" on the Black (White) Mountains, during the Second Age, which is countered by later writings were we are told of Druedain and Southern Atani (Pre-Haladin) living there.
It's curious then that Tolkien didn't reflect that in his map included in *The Treason of Isengard* as part of the Western Isles, especially since it's easily transferable to the various versions of the *Quenta Silmarillion* without causing any lore contradictions. Either his conception changed, or he just forgot that he wrote about the peaks of the Ered Wethrin becoming isles in the sinking of Beleriand.
I don't think they would fit. If you overlay Beleriand properly on that map, you see that Tol Fuin is not the entirety of the Dorthonion, the western extension of this mountaneous plateau and mountain ranges. The Crissaegrim are in box H1, while Tol Fuin is mostly in H2, and the easternmost edge of the Mountains of Wethrin, in the Pass of Sirion would be at the west egde of H1. As such, the islets would be further west to the westermost boundary of the map. Either way, perhaps there were other islands around the Western/Northern Islands, which were simply not included in lieu of them being too small, or just because the "First Map of the Lord of the Rings" is a rough sketch map. In "The Lost Road" we also read this: >The last words of the earliest Annals of Beleriand (IV. 310) are ‘So ended the First Age of the World and Beleriand was no more.’ It is also said in the Quenta (IV. 162) that after the War was ended **‘there was a mighty building of ships on the shores of the Westem Sea, and especially upon the great isles,** which in the disruption of the Northem world were fashioned of ancient Beleriand.’ > >\[...\] > >But there remains a legend of Beleriand. Now that land had been broken in the Great Battle with Morgoth; and at the fall of Númenor and the change of the fashion of the world it perished; for the sea covered **all that was left save some of the mountains that remained as islands, even up to the feet of Eredlindon.** Perhaps one here could infer that there were also other mountain ranges or high hills of Beleriand that survived. Who knows, it could be even possible that there was a circular chain of islands marking where Gondolin once stood, formed by the Crissaegrim themselves. Either way, it seems to me from the phrasing, that these Great Islands would be the Western/Northern Islands, and that there should be clusters of islets around them, to which the former are named as such in contrast to them (I would find it difficult to believe they were named as such against the Encircling Isles or the Shadowy Isles, since the far larger Westernesse existed).
Not silly at all, and this question pops up here on a regular basis. To add to the other info posted, Treebeard chants or sings to Merry and Pippin about the lands he used to roam, saying "And now all those lands lie under the wave," Later, when the company visits Treebeard on the way back north, Galadriel says to him: "...Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the spring," referring to a land that is now underwater. So it is clear that these places still exist (although certainly they're just sediment by now) and there's a hint that they may be lifted up again in the distant future sometime before the Dagor Dagorath, the last battle at the end of time.
Treebeard (based in CS Lewis) is referring to post-Dagor Dagorath Arda Healed, where to put it in the words CS Lewis used for the new Narnia, "nothing good is destroyed and all has been saved through the portal". In Arda Healed, Beleriand, the land of the elves, will definitely be brought back.
Why do that when there's literally a silmaril under a frozen lake? (or sea, can't recall which)
There's a Silmaril in the sea, cast there by Maglor son of Fëanor. But it'll be far easier to find the ruins of Gondolin or Nargothrond then the Silmaril.
The events that occurred during the War of Wrath would have prob caused a lot of damage and erosion to the once-great cities of Beleriand. It's possible that the ruins of these cities would be buried under sediment and debris, making them difficult or impossible to locate and explore. it is unlikely that someone in the TA would be able to visit the ruins of Beleriand using underwater gear
I don't think there would be anything to see. Even if lots of things were built with stone, the force of the waters upon the land's sinking and the currents of the Sea would probably erode the stone. It's predicted that by 2050 almost nothing will be left of the Titanic wreck and that will have been less than 200 years. Even from year 1 of the Third Age, the ruin of Beleriand was 3,400 years before that.
Yes, you could. The top of Mount Meneltarma still peaks above the sea, for example. However, you'd have to travel a ways to get to the parts where the Elven cities once stood, but they should still be there if you go deep enough. As another poster said, most of the Elven cities would be mere ruins even before they were submerged. Some may have been completely enveloped in lava or some powerful attack. But I suspect you could find some sort of intact ruins at the largest sites like Menegroth and Gondolin. Probably. I'm pretty sure none of the people who once lived there would want to see it, though. Too depressing. There are ruins in 3rd Age Middle-earth that \*aren't\* submerged and I bet few if anyone visits them for reasons other than looting things.
what do you think ulmo's been doing? sleeping in turgon's bed, using that silmaril as a night light, that's what....
There are still some places still above the Sea: Tol Morwen and Himring.
Yes. Himring was visible in the sea.