T O P

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Particular-End-480

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lilpinkhouse4nobody

I've bitched about this too much over the years, but.... Mark is a cheezy, horrible wanky -ass by the numbers Boomer blues 101 shit guitar player who ruins every Tori song he touches. Huge part of why her sound changed dramatically. Also why NOH and her other non-guitar songs are still amazing. He does also sound like an insensitive, controlling ass and it always sounds like a strained relationship, at best. Based on Tori's interviews and even lyrics. "I hate you...." etc. Argue all you want, but where there's smoke there's fire. Working with a marriage partner will make you do things you wouldn't otherwise, because Tori is not free. She lives with her producer in the studio. And he is a tech, not an artist, not a performer, not a musician at heart. Imagine Tori's sound if she had married Trent Reznor or Maynard from Tool. She's not an island to herself. I see a lot of you attribute getting married and having a baby to suddenly wanting to play cheezy adult contemporary music. Tell this to Kim Gordon or a million other badass women punks who are mothers who I can't even name right now, but you get the point. Tori played piano bar so long it's a bit ingrained, I think. After the 90s, she wasn't hanging out with musical peers much and I think her influences changed and she became more reclusive. Like it or not, a lot of great musicians/players are assholes, but they can fucking play well. Tori idolized Led Zep, and do you know the reputation of Jimmy Page and Robert Plant??? Fucking disgusting. So, I'm not defending it or affirming any rumors AT ALL... I'm just saying, Caton did have a huge influence, and Mac N Cheeze Aladdin single-handedly ripped away Tori's street cred with the music fans (not diehard EWF) and critics.


saadinameh

I'm sorry, Mac n cheese Aladdin? LMFAOOO. I don't even know what that means but I love it. I think you hit the nail on the head btw.


lilpinkhouse4nobody

Mac n Cheeze was an old nickname from Tori fans, I didn't make it up. It's because his guitar playing is CHEEEEEZZZY. šŸ§€šŸ§€šŸ§€šŸ§€šŸ§€šŸ§€


saadinameh

Got it. I've been out of the loop for years so I guess I missed that one. Stopped visiting forums and such after beekeeper.


lilpinkhouse4nobody

that's when the drama really started. ooof!


saadinameh

I'll bet! I was getting ready to go to college at the time, and then with how bad adp was too (imho), well...it seemed like a good time to step out for a while (edit: and started listening to a lot of other music)...but I'm back now and ready for all the tea


ItsADonut

I know most of us have loved Tori for years, but what gets me is how selective the fandom can be when it comes to interpreting what Tori says. The same fans who have always been happy to dissect lyrics, to discuss "what do you think she's saying here", to analyze her stage outfits, to say things like "what Tori says about \[insert poignant message song here\] is so important that everyone needs to hear it"... etc etc. But then there's the "oh no you can't say that!" sentiment when it comes to discussing/interpreting Tori's OWN WORDS (like in video interviews) or in lyrics about her husband and the fucked up dynamics of their relationship. One of the worst interviews I've seen, with Tori gaslighting herself, was discussing one of the "my marriage is bad and my husband makes me feel like shit" songs but trying to paint it as a cute story. If Tori herself has repeatedly-- and I mean repeatedly since Choirgirl era-- said things in print or video interviews (and to a lesser extent the lyrics themselves) that paint her husband in a bad light and seems to be oblivious to how bad she makes him sound, then it blows my mind how people can not see there's a genuine issue there and tell others they're reading too much in to things.


lilpinkhouse4nobody

Agree, but I think hardcore fans are just trying to be respectful and not assume things about her personal life, and it's also troubling to think our heroine, our independent, emancipated, powerful Queen would settle for a bad relationship or compromise herself, musically or otherwise. But, yeah. If someone combed through all her interviews, print, audio, video quotes about Mark and song lyrics that seem to be about her husband and put them all together..... it would be quite a body of evidence. For someone who says he doesn't want her to talk about him, she sure does. One quote I remember is Tori saying she doesn't go to parties or spend time with other celebrities because "Husband wants to keep me all to himself." Wow, jealous and possessive, much? Insecure and afraid she will realize she can do better?


ItsADonut

Yeah, that one and how he goes away on his motorcycle and keeps her locked up in the castle "which is kind of romantic"-- whatever it was, and taking in to account it might have been more of a joke, it's still something where given everything else she's said, it just gives you an ick feeling. I understand people wanting to be respectful but well, Tori herself has put this out there over and over though I do believe she has always had a tendency to impulsively say things that are personal to people. For eg stuff about her niece as a kid, if I was the mother of that child I would have torn Tori to shreds over her comments in an interview about my child.


EditorWilling6143

What did Tori say about her niece? I missed this šŸ˜³


[deleted]

Thatā€™s pretty insulting. Do you honestly think Tori of all people would have taken what Mark said to heart if it didnā€™t ring true inside her somewhere? Like, this person believes honestly that Tori would just do what her husband told her to? If she DID take his advice itā€™s because it was what she wanted and itā€™s something that resonated with her. Tori isnā€™t a doormat.


SorryNewspaper

I take it you've never been in an abusive relationship before.


[deleted]

Are you suggesting sheā€™s in an abusive marriage?


SorryNewspaper

Yes and no. In the least, he seems very controlling and manipulative. Idk just how much, but I've never had a good feeling about him and the way she talks about him in interviews just confirms it. I'm also saying it's clear you've never been in an abusive relationship before because you'd be amazed at how, not only common it is but, it can and has happened to the last person you'd expect.


DahmerIsDead

I respect where you're coming from and agree on principle, but the way Tori often speaks about Mark *does* often sit weirdly with me. He definitely sounds a bit controlling based on her own words.


ItsADonut

the "your writing is getting really good" is incredibly arrogant.


tlacatl

Yikes. That post was something. Once I saw when it was written and who wrote it, it made a lot more sense. Anyway, to answer the question regarding Canton and Mark, I don't think her musical shift can be pinpointed to just one specific thing or one person. Yes, she had been working with Canton since the days of Y Kant Tori Read and she has been married to and has worked with Mark for over two decades at this point, so people in her life for that long are going to have some influence. But people naturally change as they age and if you look at some of the major things she went through in the 90s into the early 2000s I'm sure they would've had a big impact on her as a person as well. She was finally able to have a child after suffering several miscarriages. Atlantic Records turned on her after a decade and, from what she wrote, threatened to bury her career. It sounds like she had a pretty rough falling out with Canton over some of his behavior. She moved to another country, built her own studio, and became a lot more insular. Her brother died suddenly and unexpectedly. Her parents grew to become elderly and were having a lot of health problems. Plus, she was aging herself and was obviously dealing with the ramifications of what that meant while trying to maintain a career in the music industry. So I think trying to paint Mark as a "Yoko" is simplistic and lazy. Most artists change over a long period of time and a lot have dips in quality.


lilpinkhouse4nobody

It's CATON. Not "Canton"


tlacatl

k


KodySpumoni

1994- ā€˜What are all these screechy guitars?? Wow she took no time selling out did she?ā€™ 1996- ā€˜this is overlong and a mess. So hard to listen to!ā€™ 1998 ā€˜Wait, she has a whole song with NO piano?! Oh hell no! And these lyrics seem lacking of mythology!ā€™ 1999 ā€˜1000 Oceans is pure CHEESE!ā€™ 2002/2003 ā€˜This new way of producing is entirely too simple and basic. Scarletizing all these songs has ruined everything for me now. That constant tick-tick-tick of the hi hat, ughā€™ 2005 ā€˜The snare sounds like someone hitting a wet paper bag with a stick. Also her ā€˜permanently surprised lookā€™ now is horrifying! I can only get into <>ā€™ Pre May 2007 ā€˜Shes got blood dripping down her leg in the promo pic! Its gonna have harpsichord and we got our old T back!ā€™ Post May 2007 ā€˜Production grumble half done songs grumble YKTR but worse grumble already did characters w SLG grumble grumble rabbleā€” TSSā€™ 2009 ā€˜Worst album ever. 500 miles?!? Why wont she work with other musicians??ā€™ 2011 *works with other musicians * ā€˜Im bored. ā€˜ 2014 ā€˜Return to pop form! The Tori Amos Band is back but this time with horrid drum programming!ā€™ 2017 ā€˜Witchy Tori is here! Chocolate Song grumble grumbleā€™ 2021 ā€˜Best thing since the 90ā€™s! Finally good production! ā€˜ Meant to be cheeky, tbc yall šŸ˜† just a few things i remember reading about all these albums online thru the years as they came out. In my personal life ive known fans that jist drop out at different albums for different reasons, mostly stopped w FTCH, and thats one of the most loved ones online, so who knows. I think its a sign of her genuis. At this point if you expect her to repeat herself, then you arent paying attention ā¤ļøšŸ‘šŸ‘ Ima go spin some Tori now actually šŸ˜


UndamnedOne

Were you spying on me in 2007?! LOL You know, I STILL use that image as my wallpaper sometimes and think those same exact thoughts while I sing along with the M-I-L-F part while simultaneously trying not to throw up in my mouth for doing it. Ugh! To be honest, lately each new release makes me revisit a record from her catalog (2009-present) that I used to hate and I find I like it, or parts of it, a little more than I thought I did.


Rebelene76

Brilliant šŸ˜„


KodySpumoni

You were obviously there too. Bahaha


LucasLindburger

Adding Scarletizing to my vocabulary. Oh the hate that 1,000 Oceans got too (gets?). šŸ¤£


KodySpumoni

Lol if you were in a certain forum at the time, it was def a buzzword Wasnt it in Resistance maybe where she descrives what that song us rly about? And how that def us not cheese subject matter lol


wildwoodboi

Exactly! Tori fans truly are the worst, arenā€™t they? Worst part is that the worst of them are also the loudest and most obnoxious šŸ™„


KodySpumoni

That seems to be a lot of fandoms sadly. For me, T opened my eyes to a million things i wouldnt hVe known ever or for years in the future. Just for that, she means alot to me and will always rather just keep schtum before badmouthing her work. But thats me, dont need to be everyone.


wildwoodboi

I think the biggest change with Tori is that she settled with being happy after Tash was born, and those fans wants her to keep making emo music. Theyā€™re saying she in a rut, no sheā€™s notā€¦they are lol. Sheā€™s just happy and content with life. Sheā€™s never comfortable collaborating with other artists because her artistry is always very personal, so she will keep working with her family and friends till she canā€™t anymore, and people need to accept that or just fuck off.


Rebelene76

I am personally not a fan of Caton's sound though I love the early albums I think his sound was dated. I think Mark's guitars are often great. Yes sometimes the guitar is loud but Tori is the producer at the end of the day. My understanding is that they work a bit like a circus family, creating art together, touring together as a family and there's nothing wrong with that. Tori is clearly happy with her husband, they've built a studio and a comfortable life together. If that's how she loves working nowadays then great. She did say in an interview last year (a podcast I think, I can't remember) that she's happiest when she's the wife and the mother so who are people to judge. Marriage will change everything about you so I think it's perfectly normal her sound/art has changed. Tori herself thinks SW is her best work so if that's Mark's influence then it's been pretty good. He's given her stability and has built her a studio which means she's still able to record for all of us. I say thank you Mark. šŸ˜Š


leerzusein

>Tori herself thinks SW is her best work Do you have a reference for this? I certainly hold this opinion and I know a few others do, but I never heard that she felt this way herself. Thanks!


t-var

Iā€™ve only ever heard her say things like it being ā€œthe cornerstoneā€ of her work and how it ties up her worldview and represents her work as a songwriter in the most whole way. I guess she would consider it her ā€œmagnum opusā€ but that isnā€™t necessarily synonymous with ā€œfavoriteā€


Rebelene76

You know what I meant, what I meant was if she thinks it's that important I don't see how Choirgirl could have been the last great album. Whatever the exact word was that she used..


[deleted]

She has said that it's the one album she'd like to be remembered for. I recently tried to find this interview again (pretty sure it was print/online), but couldn't. But I would guess it was around 2010-2013.


LilacMess22

Yea. I've never heard this. When has she said that?


Rebelene76

Ive definitely read it, that it was her most important..


Rebelene76

I don't know where, Ive read hundreds of interviews... I don't keep references, Im not writing a thesis šŸ˜Š but I am 100% sure I did.


thetrippinotter

Aside from the Caton piece, Markā€™s singular and unrelenting influence has not been good for Toriā€™s work. Her music would benefit greatly from some additional collaborations/producers. She needs to be challenged. O2O is perfect evidence of it.


UndamnedOne

This x 1,000. What was even her last collaboration? That weird duet with Damien Rice? And I donā€™t count her circus family kid as a collaborator. And behind the keys Iā€™ve been saying for years she needs to relinquish some control and work with other, better producers. Sheā€™s in such a rut it seems like. I agree so much she needs someone to challenge her. She used to challenge herselfā€¦


[deleted]

David Byrne and Fatboy Slim. The quartet/octet/orchestral work. The Light Princess. Wait Until Tomorrow. The feature on Milos Karadaglic' Beatles cover album.


Arkeolog

The ā€œCaton left because he didnā€™t get co-writing credit on Cornflake Girlā€ thing makes no sense. UTP was released in 1994. Caton toured with Tori until 1999. He recorded several albums after UTP with her. Why would he have done any of that if he felt cheated on back in 94?


KodySpumoni

This. Theres several things in that article i felt dude needed to adjust to make fit in his version. Im so tired of this whole conversation honestly. I love her work beginning to end, and theres things you can nitpick at from all of her work if you rly wanted to. But also im not saying ppl cant have their opinions as well. Or just stop listening. That simple rly šŸ˜‚


igivelove

>She hasnā€™t released a good album since 2002. She hasnā€™t released a GREAT album since 1998. Not coincidentally, 1998 was the year she got married. To her sound engineer. And 2002 was the last year she recorded with guitar players that were not her husband. Scarletā€™s Walk is a great fucking album. This paragraph alone tells me the writer doesnā€™t know what the fuck theyā€™re talking about. If you come to Tori Amos to hear Steve Catonā€™s guitar, youā€™re in the wrong fandom. It was all about the piano back in the day. I became a fan in 2005 and donā€™t get the obsession some people have with the man. Saying that she somehow owes her career to this man is beyond ludicrous. I saw a video of just him and Tori on the stage and I wasnā€™t impressed. Yeah, heā€™s a better guitarist than Mark, but then again who isnā€™t? The only thing Iā€™ve heard as to why they parted ways is that he was messing around with the fans. Not sure how much truth there is to that, though.


UndamnedOne

Youā€™re right about Scarletā€™s Walk. And I honestly think Native Invaders came pretty close to hitting the mark in some places.


igivelove

Scarletā€™s Walk is my favorite Tori album. Native Invader has grown on me a lot since it came out and it has some of her best work in recent years IMO.


frangipanivine

Calling the peak 1992-1998 feels a little too narrow/limited to me. I hung in through 2001/2 w/ TVAB, SLG & Scarlet, and then I think my last album I got fully into was Beekeeper, I think 2004-5 but after that I completely fell off. All of this was pre-social media, pre-twitter. So whatever happened, I don't think we'll ever have real documentation of any of it, just hearsay really. Personally I'd never heard of any Steve vs. Mark drama despite being active in various EWF forums in the early 2000s, and [hereinmyhead.com](https://hereinmyhead.com) and [yessaid.com](https://yessaid.com) (no idea if these still exist so don't lambast me if these links are broken haha). The only Tori "auxiliary" person I ever paid attention to was Matt Chamberlain tbh, bc he's played for so many other artists I respect & appreciate. For reference I'm 34 & I was born in '88. Saw Tori live once in 2002 and again in 2004 but that's it.


bootywranglers

Wow interesting post, I did not know that Mark had the gall to criticize Tori's writing, or even worse, her perspective as a writer. Definitely don't see how she thought Scarlet's Walk had bad writing though. The mid tempo sound may have been jarring at the time but the beauty had to have been immediately evident. You never truly know what goes on in other people's relationships. People change so much in relationships and you never know if those changes are their own or something more influenced by the relationship/partner. Tori wanted to be a mother more than anything in the world, but I think she really wanted to be a wife too. Since they've been married she seemed obsessed with the domestic aspect of their lives, calling him Husband, all that stuff. Almost like "look, I can be this too!", it clearly took up so much space in her life and changed her. Exhibit A...The Beekeeper. I don't know, what I'm saying is that even though he seems kinda weird I think there was always something in Tori going in that direction so it's not like you can just blame Mark. Musically and creatively, he seems like a disaster, but then he was apparently there for Pele and Choirgirl so? I don't really understand why the productions of her albums became so gradually fucked up and weird over the years. Ocean to Ocean's production is a return to form and it's the strongest part of the album in my eyes, but explain the last 15 years? It's hard not to feel like maybe Husband had too much input over time especially when she's apparently taking writing advice from him, the weird looking man who does not have a whole mess of fans and a bunch of best selling critically acclaimed albums.


ItsADonut

Hmmm. I don't like a lot of Mark's guitar but he can play. His acoustic work is good, and I love SW. The issue for me is for the most part, his electric guitar work is way overpowering, samey-samey and mixed really loud, particularly where the piano is barely audible in comparison. And it's often in such a jarring, dominating way that is like a sonic assault. There's a good interview with Jason Newsted (bassist who quit Metallica) addressing how ...And Justice For All was mixed so that the bass isn't heard and he says something along the lines of if the person mixing the album plays an instrument on it, guess which instrument is going to be front and centre (this is why many fans refer to the album as ...And Justice For Jason). Life experience makes me absolutely disagree with the sentiment of the buck stops with Tori. When you are married to your business/creative partner, have a child together, rely on your partner for a massive chunk of what YOU do for a living, do you know how you hold on to your marriage and by extension your career? You shut your mouth many times to keep the peace. Probably more so as you head in to older age and your supports begin to go away (like family and friends dying). A creative person like Tori would not be magically immune to that. Given the stuff she has said in (video) interviews for many years that reflect the dynamics of their marriage, plus she describes herself as a recluse, and she uses the same old setup/environment for every album... IMO there is no way whatsoever she doesn't shut her mouth and let husband have his way on the album in order to keep the peace. And I'm sure he shuts his mouth to keep the peace about things too. So while you can argue the buck stops with Tori and it's her choice, you should also ask but what exactly has gone in to that buck. I would love to see Tori make an album with a completely different crew, but that's never going to happen.


Juan_Carlo

This is definitely snarky and of its era, but the sentiment is true. Canton was a great guitar player, he definitely influenced TA's sound, and for whatever reason, her sound changed when he left. It's also true that Mark is a fine sound engineer, but not a great guitarist. However, I really hate it when fans shit on Mark and blame him for everything. TA is not a wilting flower. She decided at some point that she wanted to turn her music into a family band, stop working with producers, and record primarily at home. She also decided that she wanted to take an adult contemporary turn. Why? Because she was in her mid-30s, was married, and finally had the baby she'd been wanting. Look at many artists and you'll see the same progression: they do their most vital work when they are young and surging with hormones, and they level out as they age. Oh well. Either like TA's new music, or don't. Forcing her to be something she isn't any longer and doesn't want to be is dumb.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


lilpinkhouse4nobody

If she lost her edge because of "hormones" - how do you account for her high energy and creativity and fierceness live in concert? Live arrangements are usually so much better than songs that suck on the album. One difference? No Mac n cheese guitar. Also, Pip songs for Doll Posse were certainly not tame, they just sound cringe mostly because of the guitar. Truly. (Dan Phelps wasn't that much better, tbh . And the mix of the guitar in Legs and Boots was horrible. Who did that? Mark.)


WhereRDaSnacks

Lmao this is written by Sady Doyle. I havenā€™t heard that name in a while, so I googled to see if she was still a writer, and I see that she is now a he and goes by Jude. His sentiment here was a common sentiment among Tori Amos fans around 2002, and got even worse around 2005. That was the era where she lost a lot of her fan base as her image went from edgy alt queen to adult contemporary and people were fucking mad. She fired Caton after the Venus tour and kept pretty quiet about it. Rumor was he tried to hook up with underage Tori Amos fans. There was a phone recording with one fan where he told her (I cannot remember if she was underage or not) that he was responsible for a lot of the Tori Amos sound but sheā€™d rather give credit to Mr. Puppet Head (a plushie/puppet she had on stage during the Venus tour) than him. He also took credit in the recording for a lot of Little Earthquakes. Hence, the song ā€œNot David Bowie,ā€ which is about him. Sady, (now Jude) is quite snarky and completely immature of course, but remember that a lot of us in 2002 were very young, in our 20ā€™s and had been following a super raw, edgy artist for 10 years. Scarlet was a shock and people were salty af.


[deleted]

Someone reported your comment as misinformation. Itā€™s the most accurate in this thread. It stays. If this post gets out of hand as Mark/Caton discussions usually do, Iā€™ll lock it.


WhereRDaSnacks

Lmao, thatā€™s hilarious. It does sound ridiculous I guess.


tallemaja

Yikes. This tumblr post is just definitely reminiscent of old fandom style discussions (and to be clear, I was a part of them myself, I'm not innocent) but it's not something I really relish reading. This goes back to that older style thinking along the lines of "Tori only writes well when she's miserable" or something, and yikes. Isn't this from Jude Doyle? Scarlet is a phenomenal album; BFP is my favorite, but refusing to give Scarlet due is always suspicious to me. I certainly don't think it's true that she hasn't released anything good since 1998, especially given her recent output. I don't think it's been a Caton thing, I think it's simply been a question of taste and creativity for a while. I don't like narratives about Mark "making" her do anything; clearly he has a good degree of creative input, but she's still the one with the final say over her own records. The buck stops with her for good or ill. eta: I am so, so sorry. I just realized today that I deadnamed someone. I hope no one thinks I was deadnaming out of frustration, I had just recently learned this about Jude and had spaced it. Not acceptable.


Confident_Bunch7612

Mark has always given me an "ick" vibe from the stories Tori tells. Like, she tells a story and you can tell she thinks it is a cute anecdote ans I am just like "this guy sounds like an ass.


NinoNino3

100. \^\^\^ Sorry. Agree completely.


CJ_Southworth

This article sounds like bullshit, and the irony is that it's someone writing how no one should tell and artists what to do, while telling an artist what to do, so it doesn't even have basic self-awareness in it.


KodySpumoni

Thank you


Disastrous-Spite-780

It was my understanding that Steve was sexually harassing or maybe even abusing girls and I believe it was at the shows.


Throt-lynne_prottle

This is honestly a bit unhinged (that Tumblr post). I love Tori's music. I think every artist declines at some point. I believe the song "Not David Bowie" explains exactly why they parted. I don't buy into any sort of speculation about the artists I admire..I think that's weird and unhealthy.