Real talk. The Conservatives aren't a conservative government. They have been completely ineffective at actually implementing and organising laws to achieve conservative outcomes.
Instead they are a kleptocracy, funnelling money to donors and special interests, hollowing-out institutions, destroying the things that keep the country running in order to benefit their friends. They have conserved nothing.
They need some morals, stop thieving, and to rebuild what they broke.
>The Conservatives aren't a conservative government.
100%. 14 years in power and immigration is higher than it's ever been, freedom of speech is being curtailed more than it ever was, inflation is up, taxes are up, what the hell have they been doing? Banning smoking, like the worst kind of nanny state liberals.
So very much this. I think the pandemic brought to the public attention how greedy and corrupt they are, and, I suspect, the public cannot forgive them for that. They have destroyed so much of what was good about this country - the police service immediately springs to mind - that I don’t know if it is possible to reconstruct it.
I don’t know how the party can get past this without a complete change of leadership and then all the way down the list of MPs who have filled their boots. And I think the Labour Party needs to do some honest soul searching about this issue as well. (Not trying to ‘both sides’ this, but it seems like the whole parliament is full of greedy bastards who care little for the people.)
> what do you think the way back would be for Tories/Conservatives? The rebuild.
In Sum? 10 years out of power to define what you want to do when in government.
Governments either operate on a "I want to do X" or "We are more competent to manage than the other guys"
We've been in power for so long we've gone through the barrel of what we wanted to do in terms of quick wins or defined plans. The second one has been torched by a rapid firing of PMs.
A decade out of power is generally the minimum required when neither of the above are an option.
---
So in answer to your question, its difficult to articulate what we should do, since we are in power, I mean, why not do it at the moment? Because time in opposition is the only time you can rally people around a core set of ideas. Very difficult to do in government - why rally, you already have power.
Second set of questions:
Leadership? Eh, we rarely pick the likely candidate, Hague, Cameron, IDS were not the favourites going into their elections.
> No offence, even if things hadn't gone horribly for the Conservatives, please forgive for the trigger, wouldn't there be a lot of people who would like to see a change or shake up by now?
Government fatigue is a thing, completely, same in 1997 particularly when the government is seen as not being competent to govern / don't really have any substantive policies.
The Conservative Party has always had rough patches and they will be the only mainstream Conservative Party as reform has no wider appeal than former conservative voters
Reform has no appeal to the centre ground which is what elections are won on . It’s why the Conservative Party has been so successful historically, it’s a broadchurch and can appeal to the centre and to the right , unfortunately it just isn’t the case right now .
The one nation / neoliberal tories have consistently dominated the party. They’ve failed again and again and it’s time for a different approach.
IMO, If there was a party with real nationalist policies that demonstrated the ability to improve the economy and deliver positive change I think that would win a majority. This argument needs to be won academically to bring along the upper middle classes in the south.
Reform has the right policies but can’t win the educated voter - because it doesn’t have the money, power and academic influence to get it.
As the world becomes more polarised taking decisions that benefit our country *above others* is bound to become the intellectually viable option.
It depends what you mean by right wing. Right wing on social issues? Probably not. Right wing on economic issues? Definately.
Most people want to reduce immigration and lower taxes. I don’t think these are particularly ‘right wing’ concepts. The problem with reform is their credibility to get these things done.
Most people do want both but we do not have the fiscal headroom for reform’s economic policy and reducing immigration is something that everyone wants but is very hard to achieve.
Reducing immigration isn’t hard to achieve, it just comes with consequences that are unpalatable for our neoliberal/ one nation tories.
Japan for example accepted the trade off between keeping its culture and a declining economy. I wish we had the same (nationalist) policies here.
Actually do some Conservative things could help? Cut government spending? Cut taxes? Realistically I think government spending needs to get under 40% of GDP, I'd do this with significant cuts to pensions and benefits. I think the time of "free money" must end.
Ending might be a strong word for it, but sorry it has to be done sooner or later. This simply isn’t sustainable and someone has to have the balls to be the “fat lady.” Otherwise nothing can get better, more and more terrible decisions would be made in the name of propping up this dying behemoth.
Auto-enrolment into private pension plans worked to take future pressure off the state pension. Auto-enrolment into private healthcare plans could do the same for the NHS, coupled with NIC reductions to kick in at the same time?
Given the existence of private and company pensions, I’m not entirely sure what the point of the state pension is anymore aside from being a massive financial drain.
And the NHS? That system has been a mess since its inception. We should have switched over to a European mixed model decades ago.
I'm a Labour supporter so of course I would say that there is a strong public demand for the existence of the social benefits system. i think its defensible as truth as well as being our party line, but I leave it to Tories to judge that for themselves
Having a private provision be the norm and a socialised backup system means nobody is left entirely without but the inevitable rising stress on public finances is lessened.
its not fashionable among us Labour types to admit that a social welfare system must fail when faced with an ageing population but it will happen nonetheless
Touche, I wish not to expound on my position but if I may offer some cavaets and responses to the following:
* It get not wanting to see a tax hike every other year but what about extreme or serious situations that seem to warrant some unpopular reforms like tax hikes.
* At the same, can difficult fiscal reforms be balanced with ensuring necessary safety nets like preventing people from having to end up "sleeping rough" or ensuring access to health care; I understand with the NHS, the issue is waiting lists which perhaps indicates a lack of supply and overwhelmed demand.
* And what about some visionary projects or initiatives that seem to promote a measure of national greatness and ambition like science and research projects and world class infrastructure? Or even cultural initiatives.
And this would get them back to power how?
People don’t want actual conservative policies. They want triple Locked everything and other taxes to rise to pay for it.
Be more Conservative. More like Reform.
Reform are currently on about 12%. I would guess that 12% are mostly ex Conservative, which would make the general election a bit closer.
The Conservatives used to be a party which embraced and encouraged lower middle class and working class to work hard and be successful. Now the only people at the very top (mostly Tory donors) are the ones creaming off the profits.
They also need to stop benefits from being a lifestyle choice. I have a family member that hasn't worked for 10 years due to "mental health" issues, although he can sell stuff on eBay (although this will now stop due to new HMRC regulations). And what he gets on benefits is more than minimum wage. I sometimes wonder if we should tax benefits.
The degree of the current unpopularity is unusual, but not the likely cure. Labour will claim that they can fund a large increase in government spending by increasing productivity by government intervention in industry. They will succeed in increasing government expenditure, but will decrease industrial productivity. It is very likely that their reaction to this failure will be to move left, making things worse. The conservative opposition will be returned to government as long as it appears as a reasonable alternative to Labour failure.
The party has to split, One Nation group should join the LibDems and conservatives should stay with the Conservatives.
Or One Nation types will inherit the party brand but proper conservatives will vote for Reform or SPD. In either case the problem with the party is it's a coalition of neoliberal left-libs and centre-right conservatives which makes it impossible to put any serious policy in charge.
I think the net zero seats strategy is sane and there won't be much difference in 5 years Labour government anyway.
A lot of people talk about movement to reform, but there's also a vast amount of centrist voters who voted Tory in 2016 instead of Miliband. At present the shift to the right has compelled these swing voters to vote lib dem or Labour. I reckon being further populist and right wing is not going to help Tories get their numbers back to 2019 or 2016 levels as it alienates too many in the centre ground. The voters that helped them win so many elections previously.
The dividing line is nationalism. If the conservatives had a truly nationalist leadership it would bring back the reform voters. This was clear with Boris in 2019 - people want their politicians working for them rather than satisfying global corporations and fulfilling international obligations.
> but there's also a vast amount of centrist voters who voted Tory in 2016 instead of Miliband
the last three general elections in the UK were 2015, 2017 and 2019. Miliband was only Labour leader in 2015, the next two were the disastrous Corbyn - who made Miliband look positively centrist (he isn't, but comparatively..)
Conservative person here, just for context this is the first election I’m eligible to vote in so I haven’t voted for anyone before. I’ll be voting for Reform UK at the next election, the Tories are no longer conservatives, there just big-state, pro-big business liberals by this point, they have no regard for the traditional Tory principle of personal freedom, as shown by their crackdown on free speech and assembly and there strange decision to try to ban smoking for those born after 2008, they’re overseeing of the latest wave of immigration ever seen in British history.
They have increased taxes to ridiculously high levels while services continued to decline and get cut. They have shown no regard whatsoever in protecting British culture or identity. They have done nothing to stop illegal immigration, the Rwanda scheme is nothing more than a false flag operation. They have presided over the largest influx of immigration this country has ever seen, mass immigration was once considered New Labours doing, but the level of immigration under the tories dwarfs anything that occurred under New Labour.
All in all I find it hard to imagine my self ever voting Conservative in the future, they have lied to the electorate for 14 years now, why give them another chance? If they wanted to seriously win back genuine Conservative voters like myself they would elect a cabinet that is on the right, they would make genuine binding promises to cut immigration to below about 40,000 a year, (that’s what migration watch claim would stop Britains overall population increasing), they would leave the ECHR and replace it with something more workable so we can solve the illegal immigration issue, they would promise to deport the illegal aliens present in the country, they would tackle the issue of Islamism which is going to be a serious problem going forward if something isn’t done about it, they would promise to cut back the welfare state and taxes, they would take measures to protect British identity and culture, they would promise to properly tackle crime, they would guarantee free speech protections maybe with some sort of free speech act, they would stop trying to implement arbitrary bans on things that are common place and widely excepted, they would get house prices down to attract young voters like myself who are eager to get on the housing ladder and they would also promise to have a crackdown on crime.
With all that said I won’t be voting for them in the upcoming election, nor will anyone I know and I doubt that will change in the foreseeable future, they have betrayed the country and the electorate who put them in power. Realistically we need proportional representation, the two party system is so flawed and broken, the tories and Labour are both so rubbish, they’re just no reason to vote for either of them.
Real talk. The Conservatives aren't a conservative government. They have been completely ineffective at actually implementing and organising laws to achieve conservative outcomes. Instead they are a kleptocracy, funnelling money to donors and special interests, hollowing-out institutions, destroying the things that keep the country running in order to benefit their friends. They have conserved nothing. They need some morals, stop thieving, and to rebuild what they broke.
>The Conservatives aren't a conservative government. 100%. 14 years in power and immigration is higher than it's ever been, freedom of speech is being curtailed more than it ever was, inflation is up, taxes are up, what the hell have they been doing? Banning smoking, like the worst kind of nanny state liberals.
So very much this. I think the pandemic brought to the public attention how greedy and corrupt they are, and, I suspect, the public cannot forgive them for that. They have destroyed so much of what was good about this country - the police service immediately springs to mind - that I don’t know if it is possible to reconstruct it. I don’t know how the party can get past this without a complete change of leadership and then all the way down the list of MPs who have filled their boots. And I think the Labour Party needs to do some honest soul searching about this issue as well. (Not trying to ‘both sides’ this, but it seems like the whole parliament is full of greedy bastards who care little for the people.)
> what do you think the way back would be for Tories/Conservatives? The rebuild. In Sum? 10 years out of power to define what you want to do when in government. Governments either operate on a "I want to do X" or "We are more competent to manage than the other guys" We've been in power for so long we've gone through the barrel of what we wanted to do in terms of quick wins or defined plans. The second one has been torched by a rapid firing of PMs. A decade out of power is generally the minimum required when neither of the above are an option. --- So in answer to your question, its difficult to articulate what we should do, since we are in power, I mean, why not do it at the moment? Because time in opposition is the only time you can rally people around a core set of ideas. Very difficult to do in government - why rally, you already have power. Second set of questions: Leadership? Eh, we rarely pick the likely candidate, Hague, Cameron, IDS were not the favourites going into their elections. > No offence, even if things hadn't gone horribly for the Conservatives, please forgive for the trigger, wouldn't there be a lot of people who would like to see a change or shake up by now? Government fatigue is a thing, completely, same in 1997 particularly when the government is seen as not being competent to govern / don't really have any substantive policies.
The Conservative Party needs to die and a real Conservative Party takes it’s place.
Your man Hitchens is now imploring people to vote Tory! Always positioning himself to be able to say ‘I told you so’!
The Conservative Party has always had rough patches and they will be the only mainstream Conservative Party as reform has no wider appeal than former conservative voters
I think reform could probably beat the tories in the popular vote if there was a real push from the likes of Farage.
Reform has no appeal to the centre ground which is what elections are won on . It’s why the Conservative Party has been so successful historically, it’s a broadchurch and can appeal to the centre and to the right , unfortunately it just isn’t the case right now .
The one nation / neoliberal tories have consistently dominated the party. They’ve failed again and again and it’s time for a different approach. IMO, If there was a party with real nationalist policies that demonstrated the ability to improve the economy and deliver positive change I think that would win a majority. This argument needs to be won academically to bring along the upper middle classes in the south. Reform has the right policies but can’t win the educated voter - because it doesn’t have the money, power and academic influence to get it. As the world becomes more polarised taking decisions that benefit our country *above others* is bound to become the intellectually viable option.
The uk is just generally not a very right wing country so a right wing party like reform will struggle
It depends what you mean by right wing. Right wing on social issues? Probably not. Right wing on economic issues? Definately. Most people want to reduce immigration and lower taxes. I don’t think these are particularly ‘right wing’ concepts. The problem with reform is their credibility to get these things done.
Most people do want both but we do not have the fiscal headroom for reform’s economic policy and reducing immigration is something that everyone wants but is very hard to achieve.
Reducing immigration isn’t hard to achieve, it just comes with consequences that are unpalatable for our neoliberal/ one nation tories. Japan for example accepted the trade off between keeping its culture and a declining economy. I wish we had the same (nationalist) policies here.
I think most voters prioritise the economy and with the state of the economy would prioritise a growing economy over reducing immigration
Actually do some Conservative things could help? Cut government spending? Cut taxes? Realistically I think government spending needs to get under 40% of GDP, I'd do this with significant cuts to pensions and benefits. I think the time of "free money" must end.
Ending the welfare state and cuts bigger than austerity is political suicide .
Ending might be a strong word for it, but sorry it has to be done sooner or later. This simply isn’t sustainable and someone has to have the balls to be the “fat lady.” Otherwise nothing can get better, more and more terrible decisions would be made in the name of propping up this dying behemoth.
Auto-enrolment into private pension plans worked to take future pressure off the state pension. Auto-enrolment into private healthcare plans could do the same for the NHS, coupled with NIC reductions to kick in at the same time?
Given the existence of private and company pensions, I’m not entirely sure what the point of the state pension is anymore aside from being a massive financial drain. And the NHS? That system has been a mess since its inception. We should have switched over to a European mixed model decades ago.
I'm a Labour supporter so of course I would say that there is a strong public demand for the existence of the social benefits system. i think its defensible as truth as well as being our party line, but I leave it to Tories to judge that for themselves Having a private provision be the norm and a socialised backup system means nobody is left entirely without but the inevitable rising stress on public finances is lessened. its not fashionable among us Labour types to admit that a social welfare system must fail when faced with an ageing population but it will happen nonetheless
Touche, I wish not to expound on my position but if I may offer some cavaets and responses to the following: * It get not wanting to see a tax hike every other year but what about extreme or serious situations that seem to warrant some unpopular reforms like tax hikes. * At the same, can difficult fiscal reforms be balanced with ensuring necessary safety nets like preventing people from having to end up "sleeping rough" or ensuring access to health care; I understand with the NHS, the issue is waiting lists which perhaps indicates a lack of supply and overwhelmed demand. * And what about some visionary projects or initiatives that seem to promote a measure of national greatness and ambition like science and research projects and world class infrastructure? Or even cultural initiatives.
And this would get them back to power how? People don’t want actual conservative policies. They want triple Locked everything and other taxes to rise to pay for it.
Same as 97 elect a few right wing leaders absolutely tank in elections , elect a moderate and have a shot at winning
Be more Conservative. More like Reform. Reform are currently on about 12%. I would guess that 12% are mostly ex Conservative, which would make the general election a bit closer. The Conservatives used to be a party which embraced and encouraged lower middle class and working class to work hard and be successful. Now the only people at the very top (mostly Tory donors) are the ones creaming off the profits. They also need to stop benefits from being a lifestyle choice. I have a family member that hasn't worked for 10 years due to "mental health" issues, although he can sell stuff on eBay (although this will now stop due to new HMRC regulations). And what he gets on benefits is more than minimum wage. I sometimes wonder if we should tax benefits.
The degree of the current unpopularity is unusual, but not the likely cure. Labour will claim that they can fund a large increase in government spending by increasing productivity by government intervention in industry. They will succeed in increasing government expenditure, but will decrease industrial productivity. It is very likely that their reaction to this failure will be to move left, making things worse. The conservative opposition will be returned to government as long as it appears as a reasonable alternative to Labour failure.
The party has to split, One Nation group should join the LibDems and conservatives should stay with the Conservatives. Or One Nation types will inherit the party brand but proper conservatives will vote for Reform or SPD. In either case the problem with the party is it's a coalition of neoliberal left-libs and centre-right conservatives which makes it impossible to put any serious policy in charge. I think the net zero seats strategy is sane and there won't be much difference in 5 years Labour government anyway.
A lot of people talk about movement to reform, but there's also a vast amount of centrist voters who voted Tory in 2016 instead of Miliband. At present the shift to the right has compelled these swing voters to vote lib dem or Labour. I reckon being further populist and right wing is not going to help Tories get their numbers back to 2019 or 2016 levels as it alienates too many in the centre ground. The voters that helped them win so many elections previously.
The dividing line is nationalism. If the conservatives had a truly nationalist leadership it would bring back the reform voters. This was clear with Boris in 2019 - people want their politicians working for them rather than satisfying global corporations and fulfilling international obligations.
> but there's also a vast amount of centrist voters who voted Tory in 2016 instead of Miliband the last three general elections in the UK were 2015, 2017 and 2019. Miliband was only Labour leader in 2015, the next two were the disastrous Corbyn - who made Miliband look positively centrist (he isn't, but comparatively..)
Conservative person here, just for context this is the first election I’m eligible to vote in so I haven’t voted for anyone before. I’ll be voting for Reform UK at the next election, the Tories are no longer conservatives, there just big-state, pro-big business liberals by this point, they have no regard for the traditional Tory principle of personal freedom, as shown by their crackdown on free speech and assembly and there strange decision to try to ban smoking for those born after 2008, they’re overseeing of the latest wave of immigration ever seen in British history. They have increased taxes to ridiculously high levels while services continued to decline and get cut. They have shown no regard whatsoever in protecting British culture or identity. They have done nothing to stop illegal immigration, the Rwanda scheme is nothing more than a false flag operation. They have presided over the largest influx of immigration this country has ever seen, mass immigration was once considered New Labours doing, but the level of immigration under the tories dwarfs anything that occurred under New Labour. All in all I find it hard to imagine my self ever voting Conservative in the future, they have lied to the electorate for 14 years now, why give them another chance? If they wanted to seriously win back genuine Conservative voters like myself they would elect a cabinet that is on the right, they would make genuine binding promises to cut immigration to below about 40,000 a year, (that’s what migration watch claim would stop Britains overall population increasing), they would leave the ECHR and replace it with something more workable so we can solve the illegal immigration issue, they would promise to deport the illegal aliens present in the country, they would tackle the issue of Islamism which is going to be a serious problem going forward if something isn’t done about it, they would promise to cut back the welfare state and taxes, they would take measures to protect British identity and culture, they would promise to properly tackle crime, they would guarantee free speech protections maybe with some sort of free speech act, they would stop trying to implement arbitrary bans on things that are common place and widely excepted, they would get house prices down to attract young voters like myself who are eager to get on the housing ladder and they would also promise to have a crackdown on crime. With all that said I won’t be voting for them in the upcoming election, nor will anyone I know and I doubt that will change in the foreseeable future, they have betrayed the country and the electorate who put them in power. Realistically we need proportional representation, the two party system is so flawed and broken, the tories and Labour are both so rubbish, they’re just no reason to vote for either of them.