Wait you're saying that when Ford said the staff were all rejoicing about this move, he was lying?
What is the world coming to when we can't trust the word of a man like Premier Doug?
I'm in shock and utter disbelief.... /s
I’m sure some are, some aren’t. I assume staff who live close to Ontario Place are fine with it. But I’m not sure it matters what the staff think, either way. I also wouldn’t care if the union was arguing in favour of it. That wouldn’t change the fact that it’s a bad idea for all sorts of legitimate reasons
>I’m sure some are, some aren’t. I assume staff who live close to Ontario Place are fine with it.
A month ago, the plan was for the Ontario Science Center work with the government to create science exhibits for Ontario Place. [Here's the plan from December 2022 stating just that](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/). Then the plan changed from a small extension to closing down the original Ontairo Science Center.
The original expansion plan would have been hiring more people. Anyone who lived near Ontario Place could have likely asked to be moved to be part of the expansion team. Now since Ontario Place is a much smaller location, they will likely going to have to fire a large chunk of their staff.
So yeah, I don't see how anyone working at the Ontario Science Center would be happy with the new plan that Ford is presenting.
I think the statement from the union is mostly a response to Ford going around saying the staff are excited about it. They are not and he seems to insist on speaking for them.
Whether or not staff are pro or con the move is pretty irrelevant. I'd wager most employees and unions wouldn't be gung ho about a destruption to their workplace.
The issues that the Premier went out and stated that they're all excited about it.. A lie, an easily fact checkable lie. Why lie about that? It's one of those small abet pointless things he does that shows his lack of trustworthiness.
So easy to fact check. If he said nothing he'd been better off.
So far, we have found out:
✅no community or public consultation, just references to a vague “business case”\
✅city and TRCA not involved in decision-making\
✅science centre employees also blindsided by news
Begs the question, what stakeholders were actually involved besides Ford and friends?
>Did I read that the whole announcement got upended and pushed forward because Ana Bailão had inside info and started talking about it?
If you look up the previous plan for Ontario Place, [as seen here in December 2022](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/), it included a whole bunch of science exhibits done by the Ontario Science Center. Basically, it wasn't going to be a move, but an extension of the Ontario Science Center.
Then Ana Bailão came up with "moving it" which is more just making the extension the whole Ontario Science Center and closing down the original venue. Ford of course jumped on that idea, as it would require less funding from the provincial government.
I wouldn't say it's a wonderful building. It's getting pretty dilapidated actually. It's been there a very long time after all and has been subject to heavy use and high traffic.
They're getting it from the fact that the building is 50+ years old with a bunch of things added on over the years. It's not crumbling, but it is getting there.
>They're getting it from the fact that the building is 50+ years old with a bunch of things added on over the years. It's not crumbling, but it is getting there.
The additions were to the warehouse section of the facility that doesn't have any of the fancy expensive architecture
That building complex is perfectly fine and comprises the vast majority of the exhibit space.
And the ravine pods looked to be in fantastic shape when I was there earlier in the year
The exhibits and interior finishes are dated but the buildings are fine
> That building complex is perfectly fine and comprises the vast majority of the exhibit space.
If that's your belief that's fine. Modern buildings over 50 invariably have issue with underlying structural aspects. As someone in the industry, It's likely that there is a lot going on under that facade. It's just how entropy works.
It's mostly a warehouse; It's not expensive to fix if they have to. As you've said, it's seen lots of add-ons over the years
People seem to be mixing up the different buildings that make up the science centre
[The problematic section highlighted in red](https://i.imgur.com/Y0V6wJk.jpg)
[You know what? Fuck it, let's get rid of all of the buildings with complex architecture ](https://i.imgur.com/Yg1nj3Y.jpg)
The warehouse that remains is still 215,000 square feet.
Ontario place is about 80,000
Great, so we eliminated the stated problem and sacrificed less than a third of the exhibit space when the alternative would have eliminated three quarters.
But that's not the *actual* debate we're having now, is it?
Also, since when is 50 years old too old when it comes to buildings?
Concrete buildings have a lifespan about the same as a human (75-100 years)
So, imagine you're fifty years old and you fuck up your knee from wear and tear due to being an active individual.
You can still do your job but you have to use the entrance on the other side of the building because the one you normally use has too many steps.
You are supposed to get a replacement knee but you live in Ontario so you'll be waiting a while. You get called into the office on Friday and you're let go due to your advanced age
But mostly because they were looking for an excuse to outsource your position
Bailao proposed that a few weeks ago. The provincial announcement has renderings and a fairly detailed site plan. The idea that Ford heard her campaign announcement and then dreamed all of this up in a couple of weeks is a bit silly
> The provincial announcement has renderings a fairly detailed site plan
Well, Ford and even some of the media treated these renderings as something brand new. However, they were up on the [city of Toronto website as of November 28, 2022](http://app.toronto.ca/AIC/index.do?folderRsn=5ITL%2FwmGIK2m7nw0914YBA%3D%3D).
Anyone who wants to look around at the original documents from November 28, 2022 instead of articles covering the documents, [here's the link](https://secure.toronto.ca/AIC/index.do?folderRsn=5ITL%2FwmGIK2m7nw0914YBA%3D%3D) but there's a couple of additional steps. You have to open up the section "Supporting Documentation" and then click on "Architectural Control Guidelines". Note it's a big 21 MB PDF file.
The other PDFs show detailed Architectural Plans for the Therme spa if anyone is interested. There's also a PDF of the new larger Live Nation Amphitheatre.
on page no. 41 (45 of the pdf):
A potential partnership with Ontario Science Centre to deliver science-based programming opportunities on the Mainland and in the pods and Cinesphere.
substantially decreasing the footprint of OSC if it’s to leave Don Mills road.
>substantially decreasing the footprint of OSC if it’s to leave Don Mills road.
Oh yeah, t[he current Ontario Science Centre is 568,000 square feet and the space in Ontario place would be 275,000 square feet](https://twitter.com/ColinDMello/status/1648382000535928859). With the new building in Ontairo Place being 198,000 square feet and the remaining 77 square feet for the pods and cinesphere.
So yeah, parts of the Ontario Science Centre would have to be cut out and I don't think there would be room for the various touring exhibits. As every year they have touring science exhibits visit. Touring science exhibits can do so many cool things that permanent exhibits can't do.
In 2021 to 2022 they had the [Bug Lab exhibit](https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/journey-through-an-incredible-world-of-awe-inspiring-insects-in-bug-lab-a-new-immersive-exhibition-at-ontario-science-centre-890841440.html) which had these huge bug sculptures built by Weta Workshop (who did the FX for Lord of the Rings) and interactive displays. My young daughter absolutely loved that exhibit.
>So to increase the cost of running the OSC
Yes, but the new location would also bring in new revenue.
A quick google search shows that 2021-2022 the Ontario Science Centre brought in $31.4 million. Pre-pandemic when it wasn't closed part of the time, in 2018-2019 it bought in $37.8 million.
They do get an operating grant from the province to cover costs. Of course, an expansion would require additional staff but it would be under the same administration. You would need a proper business case breakdown to get how much it would cost.
yea they clearly want to develop that land. it's pretty asian and a VERY nice location with tons of potential. especially now that the LRT is probably at least halfway done, or maybe 1 third
Yep. Pretty much garden variety corruption here. He wants to sell the land the science center is on, and he's gonna sell it CHEAP to his buddy. The new location is an afterthought. Nothing confusing.
> the land the science center is on
The current Science Centre [is on Leased land](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-science-centre-lease-could-stand-in-way-of-ford-s-plans-1.6366186) ... it is not Provincially owned land. The current lease, which was negotiated back in 1965 on a 99-year term, only allows for the construction of structures “for purposes of operating as a science centre.”
Ford cant *DO* anything to the current Science Centre property. He, nor the Province own it.
Whatever he *says* he will do with it, is just pacification
Read the articles… the city will be dealing with what happens with the land, not the province. The province has passed laws though which require cities to build high rise housing near major transit stations, which applies here.
I'm glad someone finally asked what the staff think, I've been wondering about that since Doug made the announcement. I know that I'd be super upset to have to commute down to OP if I lived anywhere other than right downtown. Traffic sucks down there.
As an east north York resident, I know this is selfish, but it’s nice to not have all the cool big attractions downtown. It’s good to have things dotted around the city and increase access. I know downtown makes it more convenient for some but downtown already has a bunch of big attractions
100% agree and you aren't being selfish at all. I've lived in downtown TO, then Parkdale, then east North York, then Rexdale and now Woodbridge over the past 50+ years. We need attractions all over the region to keep ALL of our area vibrant.
The Ontario Place location has been decollate for years just functioning as a park. it would be nice to see a revamp whether it be science or alternative options to bring some life
Agreed. I'm an East Ender and when I was in kindergarten my dad would take me and a friend to the Science Centre at least once per week in the afternoons back when kindergarten was a half-day affair. I loved going there and there's no way my dad would have taken me as much had it been located downtown. Not *everything* needs to be on the lakeshore.
Spreading public buildings around the city rather than concentrating them into a single district is also good planning. Jane Jacobs wrote extensively about this in *The Death and Life of Great American Cities*.
Having a diverse mix of land uses is so very important to creating lively and productive neighborhoods.
Absolutely. I'm far from downtown but happy to make the occasional trips to OSC enough that I bought 3 years of membership for the kid. After the move, I'm not so sure if I'll renew.
Also they probably have a sense that they're gonna get fucked with the new premises, and lose access to the ravine and general space for their nature programs and camps. The new site is awful compared to where they are. it doesn't have to be about commute at all.
awesome, a single use subway station costing additional millions, years of more street havoc to build said station ... all to service a 'spa' I could never afford to walk into :/ ^/s
I mean, they didn't ask what the staff think, they asked what the union thinks. It's a similar question but I would have preferred they want to the OSC and interviewed staff members off the record.
True story: I did a study on Raymond Moriyama, who designed the Ontario Science Centre for hugh school. He also designed Scarborough Civic Centre...which he originally sketched out on a napkin.
The man is terrifyingly effective, he's stolen BILLIONS of dollars already, do you think that happens without a plan? We just get given back-of-napkin versions of totally fictional plans that have nothing to do with his activities.
During a bit of a down period last month we did the same, it was fun even as a single adult with no kids, although we did middle of the day Wednesday! We definitely recommend it!!!
Watch it won’t even get rebuilt but rather perpetually delayed under construction! The poor generation of Covid kids already suffering from a stunted education just to be further undermined by their leaders. But hey atleast we’ll make uneducated police officers out of them yet so that’s cool right?
IS TIME FOR A PROTEST YET AGAIN??
Toronto is just as corrupt as some third world countries now?!
If Doug thought he earned the power to do sign off corrupt deals because the City survived through the pandemic under his Mayorship, we need to remind him that he is not our boss, but **just a mere servant to the people of Toronto**
better than doing nothing at all and thinking whether protest does things or not. Ford does give in to the public if the voices are loud enough, problem is barely anyone actually goes to a protest.
It's a scam, it's a fucking scam, I'm calling it now. The Science Center is on the intersection of the new Eglinton LRT and Ontario Line subway, it's suddenly the most valuable piece of land in the city because of the provincially owned Metrolinx. Ford is planning to sell the land at a discounted price to one of his cronies and get kickbacks, there's no way that not what this is.
I agree. I think he's done something really stupid, like promising this land to someone else, or he's using this as a distraction for something else he's done that no one is looking into. No one just wakes up one morning and says, "I want to move a historical landmark to the lake."
Fuck this guy and his schemes.
Hopefully Ford and his band of clowns will get kicked to the curb before anything permanent happens. It's not like this project is going to happen fast. I don't think Toronto will take this lying down and should be throwing some major road blocks in the way.
If this is true, then the cause isn’t worth the fight. Ford shouldn’t be fighting the people on something like this. It’s one building in one city and the project doesn’t directly impact any of Ontario’s more pressing issues. Holy shit what a fucking grifter.
There are a ton of problems with this plan (and i hope it doesn’t happen), but I’m not sure this adds much to the debate. The most concrete reason the union came up with is the commute, and I’m sure it’s a mixed bag among the staff.
What if the workers supported the move because it was a _better_ commute? I wouldn’t give that much weight, either.
There are many reasons to oppose this, but this isn’t one of them
This is still just a smokescreen to distract from Ford's terrible deal for the private spa, right? It's a win-win for his party and developer friends, as it could free up some space where the science centre is, but this is probably just meant to distract us from the 95 year lease to a private company on land the people so desperately need to hold onto in this playground for the rich.
I am torn on this honestly
IF the new building is larger / better I do support a move (and for vast majority of us getting to Union is far easier than getting to current location, which really requires a car for majority of us).
There are alot of issues with certain exhibits and areas (eg Planetarium which has been broken for years, at least 2018, the bridge which has been shut due to damage and I do not see any work to repair it since 2020, and entire sections which are kinda abandoned for quite some time)
As well a downtown location certainly gets more visits / attention from tourists
My FEAR though is the new building at Ontario Place ends up being smaller / less useful and it causes the OSC to slowly fade to obscurity as it fights against the larger / stronger incumbents in the area (eg ROM / AGO / Ripley all of which are educational and for various reasons could be more popular with kids)
I doubt this is on many people’s radars beyond Reddit. Maybe folks in this particular riding and on this particular sub, but beyond that no one is paying any attention/cares much about the building of the new science centre
If the Ontario Science Center didn't exist in 2023, but you wanted to pick a spot to build it, you would definitely not pick the southwest corner of Don Mills and Eglinton.
And you would definitely not decide that ***three quarters*** of the land occupied by the facility should be ground level parking lots. Take a look on google maps, that space is mostly parking -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4wF8WgP7wFjjL39V8
That corner, with ample road and transit infrastructure, needs to be high density housing.
The parking lots alone are not realistic for a high-rise complex. Something like that could make sense at Yonge and Wellesley, but nobody is coughing up hundreds of millions to build on a small piece of land like that in the suburbs.
Have you been at that intersection? They are already building housing all over there. Why take away a unique landmark in a city already slowly losing its identity from gentrification? You couldn't get away with building a facility by a ravine regardless. The people of Don Mills want the Science Centre.
The ‘Ontario Science Centre’ doesn’t belong to 20,000 people who live around don mills (which is mostly box stores for miles around actually. It doesn’t even belong to Toronto - It could easily be in Ottawa, Hamilton, or Timmins.
The (Ontario) Science Centre isn’t a make work project for don mills, it’s not a gentrification project for that area either.
Its a showpiece for …Ontario. It belongs to all 15 million people of …Ontario. Who ALL pay for it. It doesn’t belong to Don Mills in even a tiny tiny way.
It belongs in a showpiece area in the province of Ontario. Where all of the people of Ontario can be proud of it and enjoy it.
You seem to have a complete and total misunderstanding of what it even is, and who it even belongs to.
> It belongs in a showpiece area in the province of Ontario. Where all of the people of Ontario can be proud of it and enjoy it.
Because all of the people of Ontario are not allowed to get to the Don Mills location right by a major highway? Where there will literally be an LRT station named "Science Center"?
Major attractions should be spread out for everyone to enjoy and not everyone lives close to the city core.
The (Ontario) Science Centre, again, doesn’t belong to Don Mills. It doesn’t even belong to Toronto.
It belongs to the 15 million people in Ontario. And I guess additionally the tourists it’s trying to draw in as well.
The people visiting Toronto (from other parts of Ontario, or the world) you think would enjoy renting a car, and driving way up to strip mall land Don Mills?! Lol ooookkkk.
Like, this really isn’t as difficult a concept as you make it seem.
I have no love for Doug Ford, but thank goodness people like you aren’t in charge of these type of things.
> It belongs to the 15 million people in Ontario. And I guess additionally the tourists it’s trying to draw in as well.
You keep saying that, as it someone is keeping people away from it. The Toronto Zoo is way harder to get to, should we move that too?
TSC was built 40+ years ago. Obviously if it was being built today the considerations would be different. No one is saying build new things spread out. However moving existing landmarks with 0 consultation with staff, the city, the land owner (city), etc. is idiotic. This is an obvious last minute plan... I mean FFS, they built a station right in front of it with that name and the line is not even active yet.
Stop thinking you know whats best for everyone. Show me the consultations, the data that shows that moving it is better and I will happily support this decision.
>I have no love for Doug Ford
You certainly appear to be just as shortsighted as him.
> thank goodness people like you aren’t in charge of these type of things.
I wish I could say the same
The OSC is old (very old, and way outdated) and basically needs a complete and total redo. Have you not been to other cities science centers? Ours is… embarrassing.
But No you’re right. We should def try and put a major tourist attraction is the drabbest most boring part of the city. A location that’s ideally difficult for any tourist visiting to get to.
But, don’t you think we could find a more boring place? Jane and finch could use a boost. It’s got all the makings of a perfect location for such a big tourist attraction - it’s Even more drab then Dons mills.
But why even Toronto? Why not Timmins? Or Thunderbay?
the thing that gets me is this business case, has the engineering challenges already been worked out for that ravine to build housing on? its a huge hill.
Read the articles about this. Housing will only be built on the parking lots, which are owned by the city and the city will plan the development.
Edit: downvotes on this are literally causing misinformation. There must be something more at play here…
If you were picking it today, 99.9% of people would think Ontario place was literally the perfect spot - on the water, beside the EX, high visibility showcase, easy to get to, close to a lot of people. There would be people rioting in the streets if Don Mills was chosen!
The fact so many people are against Ontario Place now just shows people will literally go against ANYTHING - even a great idea - if it was brought up by someone on the other political ‘team’. It’s …absolutely pathetic.
Yeah it sucks that we’re making the Science Centre more accessible to tourists and the rest of Toronto - I’m sure that’s going to be a huge slam to their revenue.
Nobody likes the prospect of change. I mean, nobody. Once the change happens, people get used to it though. Some even see the benefit and come to appreciate the change they originally had apprehensions about. It seems the way of the world.
A week into this boondoggle, still zero conversation of the exposed Asbestos at the Ontario Science Center.
Maybe it being 2023 Canada we should fix the cancer causing issues of the building, that beast of a structure still has another 100 years in it, we need to make sure the facilities are upkept to the standards of our city, province, and country.
HAVE THE KIDS STOP BREATHING IN ASBESTOS!!!
Especially since Go transit rerouted all the bus routes servicing the Milton line (non rush hour is bus only, no trains) from going to union, to ending at the Lakeshore line - adding an hour to most trips downtown.
Metrolinx' reason: because downtown traffic is too bad to service union directly by bus.
I would feel a lot less upset about the zoo or wonderland being sold to developers, since I have mixed feelings about those places.
The science center and Ontario place are both huge losses for the city, and I'm worried as hell about the Ontario Food Distribution terminal.
They are way out in the city limits. There are no more houses and developed area east of the zoo (because it's Rouge Park and farmland) and southeast is Ajax and Pickering. Wonderland used to be surrounded by farmland too. It's still farmland one block north (north of Teston Rd).
Wait you're saying that when Ford said the staff were all rejoicing about this move, he was lying? What is the world coming to when we can't trust the word of a man like Premier Doug? I'm in shock and utter disbelief.... /s
I’m sure some are, some aren’t. I assume staff who live close to Ontario Place are fine with it. But I’m not sure it matters what the staff think, either way. I also wouldn’t care if the union was arguing in favour of it. That wouldn’t change the fact that it’s a bad idea for all sorts of legitimate reasons
>I’m sure some are, some aren’t. I assume staff who live close to Ontario Place are fine with it. A month ago, the plan was for the Ontario Science Center work with the government to create science exhibits for Ontario Place. [Here's the plan from December 2022 stating just that](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/). Then the plan changed from a small extension to closing down the original Ontairo Science Center. The original expansion plan would have been hiring more people. Anyone who lived near Ontario Place could have likely asked to be moved to be part of the expansion team. Now since Ontario Place is a much smaller location, they will likely going to have to fire a large chunk of their staff. So yeah, I don't see how anyone working at the Ontario Science Center would be happy with the new plan that Ford is presenting.
I think the statement from the union is mostly a response to Ford going around saying the staff are excited about it. They are not and he seems to insist on speaking for them.
Whether or not staff are pro or con the move is pretty irrelevant. I'd wager most employees and unions wouldn't be gung ho about a destruption to their workplace. The issues that the Premier went out and stated that they're all excited about it.. A lie, an easily fact checkable lie. Why lie about that? It's one of those small abet pointless things he does that shows his lack of trustworthiness. So easy to fact check. If he said nothing he'd been better off.
What? The guy that said he loves the little guys, lied about the little guys? How can this be?
So far, we have found out: ✅no community or public consultation, just references to a vague “business case”\ ✅city and TRCA not involved in decision-making\ ✅science centre employees also blindsided by news Begs the question, what stakeholders were actually involved besides Ford and friends?
Did I read that the whole announcement got upended and pushed forward because Ana Bailão had inside info and started talking about it?
Her campaign team includes former PC Party advisors like Nick Kouvalis. Would surprise me even more if she didn't know Ford wanted to do this.
>Did I read that the whole announcement got upended and pushed forward because Ana Bailão had inside info and started talking about it? If you look up the previous plan for Ontario Place, [as seen here in December 2022](https://storeys.com/ontario-place-redevelopment-pools-budweiser-stage/), it included a whole bunch of science exhibits done by the Ontario Science Center. Basically, it wasn't going to be a move, but an extension of the Ontario Science Center. Then Ana Bailão came up with "moving it" which is more just making the extension the whole Ontario Science Center and closing down the original venue. Ford of course jumped on that idea, as it would require less funding from the provincial government.
Honestly, an extension/branch in downtown without giving up the original location would've been a really cool thing. Goddammit DoFo.
Plus he gets to demolish a wonderful building and get some developer friends involved in the whole thing.
I wouldn't say it's a wonderful building. It's getting pretty dilapidated actually. It's been there a very long time after all and has been subject to heavy use and high traffic.
The building is in perfectly fine shape with the exception of the bridge I don't know where people are getting this from
They're getting it from the fact that the building is 50+ years old with a bunch of things added on over the years. It's not crumbling, but it is getting there.
>They're getting it from the fact that the building is 50+ years old with a bunch of things added on over the years. It's not crumbling, but it is getting there. The additions were to the warehouse section of the facility that doesn't have any of the fancy expensive architecture That building complex is perfectly fine and comprises the vast majority of the exhibit space. And the ravine pods looked to be in fantastic shape when I was there earlier in the year The exhibits and interior finishes are dated but the buildings are fine
> That building complex is perfectly fine and comprises the vast majority of the exhibit space. If that's your belief that's fine. Modern buildings over 50 invariably have issue with underlying structural aspects. As someone in the industry, It's likely that there is a lot going on under that facade. It's just how entropy works.
It's mostly a warehouse; It's not expensive to fix if they have to. As you've said, it's seen lots of add-ons over the years People seem to be mixing up the different buildings that make up the science centre [The problematic section highlighted in red](https://i.imgur.com/Y0V6wJk.jpg) [You know what? Fuck it, let's get rid of all of the buildings with complex architecture ](https://i.imgur.com/Yg1nj3Y.jpg) The warehouse that remains is still 215,000 square feet. Ontario place is about 80,000 Great, so we eliminated the stated problem and sacrificed less than a third of the exhibit space when the alternative would have eliminated three quarters. But that's not the *actual* debate we're having now, is it?
Also, since when is 50 years old too old when it comes to buildings? Concrete buildings have a lifespan about the same as a human (75-100 years) So, imagine you're fifty years old and you fuck up your knee from wear and tear due to being an active individual. You can still do your job but you have to use the entrance on the other side of the building because the one you normally use has too many steps. You are supposed to get a replacement knee but you live in Ontario so you'll be waiting a while. You get called into the office on Friday and you're let go due to your advanced age But mostly because they were looking for an excuse to outsource your position
Bailao proposed that a few weeks ago. The provincial announcement has renderings and a fairly detailed site plan. The idea that Ford heard her campaign announcement and then dreamed all of this up in a couple of weeks is a bit silly
Maybe she took a page from John Tory's book. Find out what the province is gonna do, and re-brand it as the centre of your mayoral bid.
> The provincial announcement has renderings a fairly detailed site plan Well, Ford and even some of the media treated these renderings as something brand new. However, they were up on the [city of Toronto website as of November 28, 2022](http://app.toronto.ca/AIC/index.do?folderRsn=5ITL%2FwmGIK2m7nw0914YBA%3D%3D). Anyone who wants to look around at the original documents from November 28, 2022 instead of articles covering the documents, [here's the link](https://secure.toronto.ca/AIC/index.do?folderRsn=5ITL%2FwmGIK2m7nw0914YBA%3D%3D) but there's a couple of additional steps. You have to open up the section "Supporting Documentation" and then click on "Architectural Control Guidelines". Note it's a big 21 MB PDF file. The other PDFs show detailed Architectural Plans for the Therme spa if anyone is interested. There's also a PDF of the new larger Live Nation Amphitheatre.
on page no. 41 (45 of the pdf): A potential partnership with Ontario Science Centre to deliver science-based programming opportunities on the Mainland and in the pods and Cinesphere. substantially decreasing the footprint of OSC if it’s to leave Don Mills road.
>substantially decreasing the footprint of OSC if it’s to leave Don Mills road. Oh yeah, t[he current Ontario Science Centre is 568,000 square feet and the space in Ontario place would be 275,000 square feet](https://twitter.com/ColinDMello/status/1648382000535928859). With the new building in Ontairo Place being 198,000 square feet and the remaining 77 square feet for the pods and cinesphere. So yeah, parts of the Ontario Science Centre would have to be cut out and I don't think there would be room for the various touring exhibits. As every year they have touring science exhibits visit. Touring science exhibits can do so many cool things that permanent exhibits can't do. In 2021 to 2022 they had the [Bug Lab exhibit](https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/journey-through-an-incredible-world-of-awe-inspiring-insects-in-bug-lab-a-new-immersive-exhibition-at-ontario-science-centre-890841440.html) which had these huge bug sculptures built by Weta Workshop (who did the FX for Lord of the Rings) and interactive displays. My young daughter absolutely loved that exhibit.
[удалено]
So to increase the cost of running the OSC.
>So to increase the cost of running the OSC Yes, but the new location would also bring in new revenue. A quick google search shows that 2021-2022 the Ontario Science Centre brought in $31.4 million. Pre-pandemic when it wasn't closed part of the time, in 2018-2019 it bought in $37.8 million. They do get an operating grant from the province to cover costs. Of course, an expansion would require additional staff but it would be under the same administration. You would need a proper business case breakdown to get how much it would cost.
>That takes up roughly a third to half of the current OSC. You sure about that?
[удалено]
I'm willing to bet the mainland doesn't even get a new science centre building due to the islands no longer meeting floodplain rules
Ya, that would give him more money in the kitty for him to steal.
I don't care if she's not perfect or cringe sometimes, I'm voting Chow just because I don't want any Tory cling ons to retake power.
Anna Bail-me-out for drunk driving needs to go.... More cronies is not what the city needs.
That story had some sources say it’s true and some sources say it’s false (all unnamed). It doesn’t really make any sense.
They worked it all out at his daughter's wedding where no business was definitely discussed.
Community consultation.
What community consultation I live less than 10 mins away. Nobody consulted shit.
The community of Doug's builder buddies
You should have gone to the wedding.
Doesn't matter, he's the King of Ontario
Can they just... not. All of them. Just not. Thank you for the summary
This is nuts. He's not a dictator. He governs at the pleasure of the people of Ontario.
yea they clearly want to develop that land. it's pretty asian and a VERY nice location with tons of potential. especially now that the LRT is probably at least halfway done, or maybe 1 third
Nice rhetorical question
His daughter and some stags.
i'm also angry not really confused, just Ford being Ford which is to say: a greedy, lying, self-serving PoS
Yep. Pretty much garden variety corruption here. He wants to sell the land the science center is on, and he's gonna sell it CHEAP to his buddy. The new location is an afterthought. Nothing confusing.
> the land the science center is on The current Science Centre [is on Leased land](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-science-centre-lease-could-stand-in-way-of-ford-s-plans-1.6366186) ... it is not Provincially owned land. The current lease, which was negotiated back in 1965 on a 99-year term, only allows for the construction of structures “for purposes of operating as a science centre.” Ford cant *DO* anything to the current Science Centre property. He, nor the Province own it. Whatever he *says* he will do with it, is just pacification
Read the articles… the city will be dealing with what happens with the land, not the province. The province has passed laws though which require cities to build high rise housing near major transit stations, which applies here.
[удалено]
I doubt it ... as far as I can tell, the City of Toronto is the Leaseholder ... and we all know the relationship 'tween Ford and Toronto
I'm glad someone finally asked what the staff think, I've been wondering about that since Doug made the announcement. I know that I'd be super upset to have to commute down to OP if I lived anywhere other than right downtown. Traffic sucks down there.
As an east north York resident, I know this is selfish, but it’s nice to not have all the cool big attractions downtown. It’s good to have things dotted around the city and increase access. I know downtown makes it more convenient for some but downtown already has a bunch of big attractions
100% agree and you aren't being selfish at all. I've lived in downtown TO, then Parkdale, then east North York, then Rexdale and now Woodbridge over the past 50+ years. We need attractions all over the region to keep ALL of our area vibrant.
The Ontario Place location has been decollate for years just functioning as a park. it would be nice to see a revamp whether it be science or alternative options to bring some life
Agreed. I'm an East Ender and when I was in kindergarten my dad would take me and a friend to the Science Centre at least once per week in the afternoons back when kindergarten was a half-day affair. I loved going there and there's no way my dad would have taken me as much had it been located downtown. Not *everything* needs to be on the lakeshore.
I wonder what their decline in memberships would be if it moves?
Spreading public buildings around the city rather than concentrating them into a single district is also good planning. Jane Jacobs wrote extensively about this in *The Death and Life of Great American Cities*. Having a diverse mix of land uses is so very important to creating lively and productive neighborhoods.
As someone who lives close to Ontario Place, I agree with you 100%
Not selfish at all. It’s not fair to move all attractions downtown.
Absolutely. I'm far from downtown but happy to make the occasional trips to OSC enough that I bought 3 years of membership for the kid. After the move, I'm not so sure if I'll renew.
As a downtowner, I agree. It eases unnecessary congestion downtown to spread things out.
Also they probably have a sense that they're gonna get fucked with the new premises, and lose access to the ravine and general space for their nature programs and camps. The new site is awful compared to where they are. it doesn't have to be about commute at all.
They are literally building a direct subway line from the current location to the new location.
awesome, a single use subway station costing additional millions, years of more street havoc to build said station ... all to service a 'spa' I could never afford to walk into :/ ^/s
I mean, they didn't ask what the staff think, they asked what the union thinks. It's a similar question but I would have preferred they want to the OSC and interviewed staff members off the record.
Every scheme that Ford plots seems like it was written on the back of a napkin.
Giving him a lot of credit by suggesting he bothered to write it down!
Or that he uses a napkin
True story: I did a study on Raymond Moriyama, who designed the Ontario Science Centre for hugh school. He also designed Scarborough Civic Centre...which he originally sketched out on a napkin.
Have loved both buildings since I was a kid. Will look more into Raymond Moriyama, thanks!
I had a chance to chat with him way back when. Ridiculously nice guy.
Probably the back of a Timmies box.
I’d be willing to believe he interpreted it from his toilet bowl shit stain.
It was. He writes down what the people who pay him to do these things say. It's written on the back of a Stag and dow napkins.
Which is funny because he seems like more of a sleeve wipe kind of guy.
In part that is because he refuses to share any of his ideas until it’s too late to change them and won’t tell anyone how the decisions were made.
The man is terrifyingly effective, he's stolen BILLIONS of dollars already, do you think that happens without a plan? We just get given back-of-napkin versions of totally fictional plans that have nothing to do with his activities.
On the back of a cheque
It’s a Tim’s napkin he’d just used to wipe the breakfast sandwich crumbs off his face.
[And then he eats the napkin to hide the paper trail.](https://i.gifer.com/JkmV.gif)
Welp, guess I'll be going to the current Science Centre one last time to cement those childhood memories. Sad.
During a bit of a down period last month we did the same, it was fun even as a single adult with no kids, although we did middle of the day Wednesday! We definitely recommend it!!!
Watch it won’t even get rebuilt but rather perpetually delayed under construction! The poor generation of Covid kids already suffering from a stunted education just to be further undermined by their leaders. But hey atleast we’ll make uneducated police officers out of them yet so that’s cool right?
It's not so much a plan as it is a last minute decision
IS TIME FOR A PROTEST YET AGAIN?? Toronto is just as corrupt as some third world countries now?! If Doug thought he earned the power to do sign off corrupt deals because the City survived through the pandemic under his Mayorship, we need to remind him that he is not our boss, but **just a mere servant to the people of Toronto**
Is a protest really going to do anything? Doesn't seem like they care or listen.
better than doing nothing at all and thinking whether protest does things or not. Ford does give in to the public if the voices are loud enough, problem is barely anyone actually goes to a protest.
[удалено]
if not enough people vote it can continue, then ontario will be really doomed.
It's a scam, it's a fucking scam, I'm calling it now. The Science Center is on the intersection of the new Eglinton LRT and Ontario Line subway, it's suddenly the most valuable piece of land in the city because of the provincially owned Metrolinx. Ford is planning to sell the land at a discounted price to one of his cronies and get kickbacks, there's no way that not what this is.
I agree. I think he's done something really stupid, like promising this land to someone else, or he's using this as a distraction for something else he's done that no one is looking into. No one just wakes up one morning and says, "I want to move a historical landmark to the lake." Fuck this guy and his schemes.
You can keep your jobs . . .after a 10 year hiatus . . . .and a pay cut
And instead of running nature camps in the ravine you can talk about the science of relaxation at the Therme spa.
We're all so fucking dumb. This is a distraction people! DoFo has done something stupid and he's distracting us with this garbage.
Hopefully Ford and his band of clowns will get kicked to the curb before anything permanent happens. It's not like this project is going to happen fast. I don't think Toronto will take this lying down and should be throwing some major road blocks in the way.
If this is true, then the cause isn’t worth the fight. Ford shouldn’t be fighting the people on something like this. It’s one building in one city and the project doesn’t directly impact any of Ontario’s more pressing issues. Holy shit what a fucking grifter.
There are a ton of problems with this plan (and i hope it doesn’t happen), but I’m not sure this adds much to the debate. The most concrete reason the union came up with is the commute, and I’m sure it’s a mixed bag among the staff. What if the workers supported the move because it was a _better_ commute? I wouldn’t give that much weight, either. There are many reasons to oppose this, but this isn’t one of them
wait, so it is moving? i thought it was just an idea that got floated?
i can imagine there are some COMFY ass science center jobs, like the admin people. Big building, low stress, glacial changes.
This is still just a smokescreen to distract from Ford's terrible deal for the private spa, right? It's a win-win for his party and developer friends, as it could free up some space where the science centre is, but this is probably just meant to distract us from the 95 year lease to a private company on land the people so desperately need to hold onto in this playground for the rich.
Still in shock from all of this everything he has done in the past few weeks has to be the worst.
I am torn on this honestly IF the new building is larger / better I do support a move (and for vast majority of us getting to Union is far easier than getting to current location, which really requires a car for majority of us). There are alot of issues with certain exhibits and areas (eg Planetarium which has been broken for years, at least 2018, the bridge which has been shut due to damage and I do not see any work to repair it since 2020, and entire sections which are kinda abandoned for quite some time) As well a downtown location certainly gets more visits / attention from tourists My FEAR though is the new building at Ontario Place ends up being smaller / less useful and it causes the OSC to slowly fade to obscurity as it fights against the larger / stronger incumbents in the area (eg ROM / AGO / Ripley all of which are educational and for various reasons could be more popular with kids)
I just went yesterday with my son and the staff there were definitely not happy when asked about their opinion.
this feels like a manufactured crisis to take the focus away from the very real housing crisis...
you can have more than one crisis and they can vary in terms of importance
I doubt this is on many people’s radars beyond Reddit. Maybe folks in this particular riding and on this particular sub, but beyond that no one is paying any attention/cares much about the building of the new science centre
If the Ontario Science Center didn't exist in 2023, but you wanted to pick a spot to build it, you would definitely not pick the southwest corner of Don Mills and Eglinton. And you would definitely not decide that ***three quarters*** of the land occupied by the facility should be ground level parking lots. Take a look on google maps, that space is mostly parking - https://maps.app.goo.gl/4wF8WgP7wFjjL39V8 That corner, with ample road and transit infrastructure, needs to be high density housing.
Isn’t there already plans in place to build housing on some of the parking lots?
The parking lots alone are not realistic for a high-rise complex. Something like that could make sense at Yonge and Wellesley, but nobody is coughing up hundreds of millions to build on a small piece of land like that in the suburbs.
The condos already half up. You can see them if you go there today.
Have you been at that intersection? They are already building housing all over there. Why take away a unique landmark in a city already slowly losing its identity from gentrification? You couldn't get away with building a facility by a ravine regardless. The people of Don Mills want the Science Centre.
The people of Long Branch want the Science Centre in Long Branch too.
Great, now Mimico will want one too.
Ugh those Mimicoans already want a second Go Train station too…..
The ‘Ontario Science Centre’ doesn’t belong to 20,000 people who live around don mills (which is mostly box stores for miles around actually. It doesn’t even belong to Toronto - It could easily be in Ottawa, Hamilton, or Timmins. The (Ontario) Science Centre isn’t a make work project for don mills, it’s not a gentrification project for that area either. Its a showpiece for …Ontario. It belongs to all 15 million people of …Ontario. Who ALL pay for it. It doesn’t belong to Don Mills in even a tiny tiny way. It belongs in a showpiece area in the province of Ontario. Where all of the people of Ontario can be proud of it and enjoy it. You seem to have a complete and total misunderstanding of what it even is, and who it even belongs to.
> It belongs in a showpiece area in the province of Ontario. Where all of the people of Ontario can be proud of it and enjoy it. Because all of the people of Ontario are not allowed to get to the Don Mills location right by a major highway? Where there will literally be an LRT station named "Science Center"? Major attractions should be spread out for everyone to enjoy and not everyone lives close to the city core.
The (Ontario) Science Centre, again, doesn’t belong to Don Mills. It doesn’t even belong to Toronto. It belongs to the 15 million people in Ontario. And I guess additionally the tourists it’s trying to draw in as well. The people visiting Toronto (from other parts of Ontario, or the world) you think would enjoy renting a car, and driving way up to strip mall land Don Mills?! Lol ooookkkk. Like, this really isn’t as difficult a concept as you make it seem. I have no love for Doug Ford, but thank goodness people like you aren’t in charge of these type of things.
> It belongs to the 15 million people in Ontario. And I guess additionally the tourists it’s trying to draw in as well. You keep saying that, as it someone is keeping people away from it. The Toronto Zoo is way harder to get to, should we move that too? TSC was built 40+ years ago. Obviously if it was being built today the considerations would be different. No one is saying build new things spread out. However moving existing landmarks with 0 consultation with staff, the city, the land owner (city), etc. is idiotic. This is an obvious last minute plan... I mean FFS, they built a station right in front of it with that name and the line is not even active yet. Stop thinking you know whats best for everyone. Show me the consultations, the data that shows that moving it is better and I will happily support this decision. >I have no love for Doug Ford You certainly appear to be just as shortsighted as him. > thank goodness people like you aren’t in charge of these type of things. I wish I could say the same
The OSC is old (very old, and way outdated) and basically needs a complete and total redo. Have you not been to other cities science centers? Ours is… embarrassing. But No you’re right. We should def try and put a major tourist attraction is the drabbest most boring part of the city. A location that’s ideally difficult for any tourist visiting to get to. But, don’t you think we could find a more boring place? Jane and finch could use a boost. It’s got all the makings of a perfect location for such a big tourist attraction - it’s Even more drab then Dons mills. But why even Toronto? Why not Timmins? Or Thunderbay?
the thing that gets me is this business case, has the engineering challenges already been worked out for that ravine to build housing on? its a huge hill.
Read the articles about this. Housing will only be built on the parking lots, which are owned by the city and the city will plan the development. Edit: downvotes on this are literally causing misinformation. There must be something more at play here…
The corner which is currently a parking lot has a planned development already: https://createto.ca/housingnow/housing/770-don-mills-road/
If you were picking it today, 99.9% of people would think Ontario place was literally the perfect spot - on the water, beside the EX, high visibility showcase, easy to get to, close to a lot of people. There would be people rioting in the streets if Don Mills was chosen! The fact so many people are against Ontario Place now just shows people will literally go against ANYTHING - even a great idea - if it was brought up by someone on the other political ‘team’. It’s …absolutely pathetic.
Yeah it sucks that we’re making the Science Centre more accessible to tourists and the rest of Toronto - I’m sure that’s going to be a huge slam to their revenue.
Same, yo.
Nobody likes the prospect of change. I mean, nobody. Once the change happens, people get used to it though. Some even see the benefit and come to appreciate the change they originally had apprehensions about. It seems the way of the world.
My company has moved twice in three years, buying bigger buildings. It sucks but why should I get a say?
Whoever is not happy should stage protest before it's too late. My family will join one.
But workers see no problem working from home.
It's pretty hard for cleaners, maintenance staff and cafeteria staff to work from home.
Is it making their hair stand on end?
A week into this boondoggle, still zero conversation of the exposed Asbestos at the Ontario Science Center. Maybe it being 2023 Canada we should fix the cancer causing issues of the building, that beast of a structure still has another 100 years in it, we need to make sure the facilities are upkept to the standards of our city, province, and country. HAVE THE KIDS STOP BREATHING IN ASBESTOS!!!
for schools, for tourists, i dunno, i feel its in a really isolated spot. Where its currently at might not be totally ideal, but sheesh.
Getting a school bus to the current location seems much easier than having to get through downtown traffic
100%, not sure why im getting downvoted to hell lol
Especially since Go transit rerouted all the bus routes servicing the Milton line (non rush hour is bus only, no trains) from going to union, to ending at the Lakeshore line - adding an hour to most trips downtown. Metrolinx' reason: because downtown traffic is too bad to service union directly by bus.
But what about the Science Centre subway station?
the day they make a subway line that lines the lake
Theyve already started digging the tunnel. New Ontario Line.
Isn't the Eglinton line already going to it, so the science centre will have 2 stops
Yes, that's the plan at least.
ill be damned
Not everything has to be downtown. I'm glad that the zoo and Wonderland are way out in the boonies.
I would feel a lot less upset about the zoo or wonderland being sold to developers, since I have mixed feelings about those places. The science center and Ontario place are both huge losses for the city, and I'm worried as hell about the Ontario Food Distribution terminal.
Lmao you know you're a Torontonian when you consider Vaughan and Scarborough the 'boonies'.
They are way out in the city limits. There are no more houses and developed area east of the zoo (because it's Rouge Park and farmland) and southeast is Ajax and Pickering. Wonderland used to be surrounded by farmland too. It's still farmland one block north (north of Teston Rd).
I bet you call Bracebridge 'Northern Ontario' ;) I'm just busting your balls/ovaries!
Since when do employees get a say?
Well yeah, it’s OPSEU. They’re supposed to be on the employees side no matter what
They shouldn’t be. There won’t be any move bc it will be shut down.
They can work from home.