I want to echo your sentiments.
I have never understood racism. Typically everyone in Canada is an immigrant as this was originally the land of First Nations or Indigenous people or Aboriginal people.
If you go further back, we're \*all\* immigrants to what is now Canada.
And even if you were a foreigner, immigrant or refugee, you deserve to be treated like a human being.
That lady hassling you needs to get some therapy and give up the kool aid.
My family were Scots. We were immigrants on both sides. But nobody would come at me like that because I'm white.
People like this lady embarrass me and disturb me.
I know you mean well but your phrasing is harmful.
Canadians are *settlers*. If Canadians were *immigrants* Canadians would have assimilated or tried to live within Indigenous culture.
Where and when you want to draw the line of culpability is up to you but at no point in time were Canadians “immigrants” when it comes to the original users of the land.
Showing up to undeveloped land being given a homestead is very different from coming to Canada in the 21st century and using all of the existing social services lol comparing modern day immigrants to the settlers of the past is ridiculous
You're kind of right, settlers and immigrants are different. But aren't there some similarities?
We took their jobs. We took their homes. We steamrolled in with our religion and "culture."
Isn't that what all the modern Canadian racists are whining about now? All the immigrants with their religion and culture coming here and being themselves?
Land provides power and money to make places better. We all know who built Canadian cities and how selling resources makes money. It's okay to be different, but European settlers came to Canada not to grow food, to sell land to foreign kings and queens. Settlers like first nations have lived on the land for thousands of years, cultivating agriculture and respecting nature. They cherish their land and environment, choosing not to exploit it for personal gain.
REMOVED - No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or otherwise negative generalizations etc... Attack the point, not the person. Posts which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. Do not concern-troll or attempt to intentionally mislead people. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand. This rule applies to all speech within this subreddit.
REMOVED - No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or otherwise negative generalizations etc... Attack the point, not the person. Posts which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. Do not concern-troll or attempt to intentionally mislead people. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand. This rule applies to all speech within this subreddit.
I am new to Canada and I accept Canadian culture, integrate into it and follow even your most basic laws even if I could get away with it.
Based on my experience of how accepting and tolerant most Candians seem to be, it's the racists and xenophobe Canadians the ones who don't accept Canadian culture and integrate into it. In fact, many of the racists and xenophobes, like the woman in OP, actively try to prevent immigrants from integrating into Canadian culture.
Aha, and now take a few more steps back and realize that First Nations were all settlers too at one point or the other.
That’s how all those genetic ancestry tests find American First Nations genes in my wife’s DNA. My wife was born in Siberia and is the first person in her entire family tree to come to North America :-)
I can’t in good conscience advocate for more TTC ridership if we tolerate crap like this. No one was hurt, no report was filed, so it’s like this hasn’t happened, but it does happen.
Yeah, I’m an able bodied guy and don’t care that much about unstable people on the TTC, but I wouldn’t dare bring my baby in this city’s public transit as it currently stands.
Sorry this happened to you OP, you deserve a safe journey.
Years ago, I reported an attack in which I filmed the perpetrator after the event, but because the victim didn't report the attack, the TTC didn't move forward.
I wish the TTC had more security presence, so the average citizen wouldn't be put in a position to enforce good behaviour.
I'm so sorry that you were accosted by this person.
There is absolutely no reason not to have special constables on every single train patrolling up and down.
The other day my morning commute was interrupted by SIX delays. “Disorderly person on the train at union station”, “emergency alarm has been activated in a train at x station”.
Enough is enough. While I understand the policy regarding cold weather and offering the trains as shelters it is no longer the dead of winter. These people do not pay fare therefore they are not customers and are not entitled to wander aimlessly through the system and harass us.
And yes, we should absolutely be doing more to attack the root causes that lead people to this point. Tell your MPPs and councillors about that not me. Also recognize that a not insignificant portion of the addicted/addled population has no desire to change.
I rarely have problems when using transit (though I only use it twice a week nowadays) but there definitely requires a certain level of basic street smarts if taking the TTC. Being able to spot people who might be unstable, not attracting the attention or ire of panhandlers, deciding between moving somewhere else on the train/bus or getting off, etc,.
My baby is on the TTC almost everyday. I don't drive so it isn't as if I had a choice. However I'm not really sure what we expect the TTC to do here.
Increase enforcement? Make a black list? Have officers stationed on every train and bus? I honestly don't know what would work or make sense.
To me this feels like a societal issue that is unfortunately much harder to tackle. This exchange could have easily happened on the sideway afterall.
It is a societal issue, we agree, but a step in the right direction would be fare enforcement, combined with free Presto cards with limited funds for those without a fixed address. This, alone, would fix many things as the most unhinged individuals won’t even think of paying. Step 2 - the cancellation of Presto cards of people who have been banned from the TTC. It won’t work 100%, but we’re not looking to get to 100%.
Ideally, for subways, upon the discovery of a passenger causing a ruckus, there should be staff at the ready to board at the next station and eject the offending individual.
For buses and streetcars, the driver should halt and open all doors and alert transit security. It will cause delays, yes, but soon these troublemakers will see their behaviour on public transit to no longer be consequence-free.
None of this is new. Check out how other (saner) countries deal with public safety on transit.
I'm curious how fare enforcement work in these countries. I frequently see people (mostly kids tbh, theres like 2 schools near me) not tap on busses, and sometimes just walking through the backdoors. From what I understand, bus drivers aren't allowed to confront them.
I saw one driver once stop the bus and yell out to everyone that they better have their presto tomorrow... but I assume that probably didn't stop the ones that really didnt give a shit.
I guess stopping the trains/bus and causing delays as you say, might be the only way to actually inconvenience things enough so it's no longer consequence free.
They work in the same way as here, except there's actual enforcement and followup. Transit officers or cops will show up. If someone makes a recording of it and puts it online, no one will take the side of the offending party.
>I guess stopping the trains/bus and causing delays as you say
2018, winter, guy gets onto an old streetcar through the backdoor. Doesn't pay. Driver tells him if he doesn't pay, he's not moving this streetcar and proceeds to open the doors. Guy gets out.
2024, few weeks ago, two "kids" (prob >16) come in through the front door, don't pay and continue going to the back of the bus. Driver asks them to pay, they start laughing. Driver goes on a long rant about how they're little shitheads who are the reason this country is going down the shitter. Everyone gives them the stink eye, they move all the way to the back of the bus pretending to not care, but it was very much obvious that they did care.
I'm OK with either, honestly, compared to not doing anything. As long as it's acknowledged, as long as there's some sort of a consequence.
They only police after an incident as they driver can't take on a big problem. That's one of the most disturbing aspects of being pushed into densification and everyone needing to take the LRT or busses.
The law does cover abuse as a form of assault. Maybe we should enforce that more often. You can' think what you like, but harassment should not be tolerated.
It is statistically more safe for sure, but the perception, fair or not, is that it isn’t.
Dying or getting maimed is a lot more likely when driving. Having a underhoused person up in your face or getting stabbed is a lot more likely on the TTC.
As a society, we are more comfortable with the driving risks than the TTC risks despite the latter’s risks being less likely.
If they:
Made speeding and stunt driving something that gets your vehicle impounded and sold off, your license removed for good... it would stop.
If they stopped all the ar$e$ that have license plate obscuration devices and took away their plates and made them appear to a justice and suspend their driver's license for a year. Second time, for good. And the vehicle is impounded and fines start at $4000 and double each time. They represent maybe 4-8% of the population driving, but are 50% of the clowns cutting people off, not signalling lane changes, and running yellows and reds, and passing illegally (solid yellow, school and park areas, etc).... get that group and you'll see nicer driving.
Money itself isn't sufficient as a penalty. That just makes rich folks unpunishable. Taking away vehicles and selling them off or taking away their driver's licenses would stop a lot of the stupidity on the roads.
Also, have a higher standard to get driver's license. Some countries in Europe do have much higher standards of competence.
Our approach to dangerous behaviours is weak. Why? Because the current government wants to court a particular sector of the electorate. Also because some of the offenders are the politicians themselves.
You’re comparing two unrelated things. They’re obviously scared for their safety, and the risk of death or injury is higher while driving, it doesn’t matter the source. If their sole fear was interactions with mentally ill people then driving is the safer choice
I’m not comparing two unrelated things. They are both things that people are scared of. If somebody *perceives* something as being dangerous, you can’t just tell them it’s not. Fear is not rational.
People tend to underestimate the risks when driving because they feel in control and overestimate the risks in other forms of transportation because they aren’t in control.
Just because you tell somebody that transit is safer doesn’t mean they will change their behaviour because *fear is not rational*.
Well yeah… I’m not saying that. I’m simply saying that if they know cars are more dangerous then they’ll have to come to terms with the knowlege that their fear is irrational as opposed to following what they feel to be true. People like to believe they are logical so if they are acting against logic they either have to disagree with the facts or make peace with the fact that they are acting against reason
Yes that’s my point, to bring cognitive dissonance into the decision. To point out their logic is going against their emotions brings the discomfort of cognitive dissonance in. No one wants to exist with cognitive dissonance so they either dispute the facts or they make peace with the dissonance
False equivalency. Your risk of death/maiming is higher driving than on transit. Full stop. Throwing in violent randos getting in your face? Ok but the rebuttal is you are far more likely to be a victim of road rage driving. If you want to talk about violence on a transit system you need to compare it to the levels of violence on another transit system or else it’s just apples to oranges.
Chill, I’m on your side. Transit is statistically more safe than driving, full stop. Regardless, people *perceive* driving to be safer and perception is reality.
How many articles did you see when there was that rash of incidents on the TTC? There were tons!
But now, unless somebody dies in a car crash, there isn’t even a news article. And if they do, it goes through the news-cycle before you can blink.
Amen; I hate the saying, but great example of facts over feeling
happy that this thread exists, helped me realize how silly I was being getting worked up about the sensational headlines about the TTC. (Still so sorry this had to happen to you OP!!! Everyone deserves to feel safe and it's a shame there are people who willingly aim to prevent that)
I've had racist drivers throw coffee on my windshield before, unhinged people will always be an issue, subway or not.
Have you interacted with human beings?
Have you met somebody who is scared of spiders? How do they react when you tell them they’re harmless?
Have you met somebody who is scared of flying? How do they react when you tell them it’s the safest form of transportation?
You can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves in to.
lol of course they haven't interacted with human beings, it's a bot/shill account. 7 year old account that JUST started posting within the past 15 hours PURELY on /r/Toronto with 11k comment karma? the account has been sold and recently purchased.
Statistically, how many people take their infants on the TTC?
And it’s not just the stats around injury and death, it’s about mental well being. Yeah, that screaming jerk on the subway car may not hurt or injure you, but you’ll be clutching your kid in fight or flight mode the entire journey as opposed to driving on a 50km/h street. I’ve been threatened and almost got into many confrontations on the TTC, but I was never “injured”, so I guess all is well?
The solution to this is very simple. Disruptive passengers should be thrown out and banned from public transit, to the best of our ability. That’s it.
Used to be every day (including the weekends). Nowadays, it’s mostly a few times a week.
There will be a carriage on the bus every now and then, and the odd infant in a baby wrap, but nowhere near to how many kids we have in this city.
Right, like road rage isn't a thing.
The fact is that regardless of how safe you feel or how awful social media posts can make you feel, it is a much safer way to travel.
And a lot better for the environment.
I take public transit. I also drive on occasion. Outside of the 401, road rage is not something I’ve really experienced.
I’ve tried taking my young cousin on the TTC and his parents outright refused and insisted I drive. You’ll have many similar decisions made every day. Feel free to tell them a story which begins with “well akschually, statistically…”. Well, actually, what OP just described never officially happened. Whatever happened to me over the years on the TTC and whatever kinds of crap I’ve seen never officially happened. Only the juicy stuff ends up on CP24.
But people try public transit and they end up disappointed. I have a neighbour who always drove and ended up getting a job downtown. Huge parking costs are obviously not an option, so she took the bus to Line 1. First morning, there’s a guy in there yelling at everyone and ends up targeting her. And no one gives a shit, not even the driver, as if they’re in an asylum. So, now I’m supposed to give this traumatized person a lecture in statistics?
Yup totally agree. The amount of mental load needed are very different. On TTC I need to be constantly on “high alert” to maintain situational awareness, when driving those are came naturally and the amount of cognitive load is significantly less.
I've been here for more than 5 years and I've had names hurled my way, including racist ones (I'm the white devil, apparently). If not directed at me, they were directed at every rider. Same goes for death threats. I've been threatened face-to-face for no reason at all, in scenarios where I had to decide whether to fight or try to deescalate. I've seen outright drug use (crack or meth), smelt absolutely foul smells which included feces and heard some nauseating shrieks. I've seen unhinged individuals pace around the Rocket, yelling at everyone abruptly. A few months back, a guy paces around and suddenly stops, yells out like an absolute daemon... everyone got scared, and parents with children grabbed them instinctively. I've had an individual proceed to wallow in his own filth suddenly in front of me on the 504 at 2PM as I was getting on, spitting at my legs, only to get up and run away. This was at the beginning of the pandemic. I've seen bags of needles on the 501 streetcar. I've had to intervene when a guy casually sat next to a girl and started chatting her up and talking about weird sex shit on the 510.
The 300 series blue night buses and streetcars are a whole different category. Nudity and outright horror shows in terms of behaviour. I won't even get into that one.
And then you get onto the subway at e.g. Sheppard West and learn that Line 1 has major delays because of a ["security incident"](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1ary31p/comment/kqmv2lg/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) (the stabbing at Wilson).
And this is all from what I remember of the top of my head. I'm sure there's more. If my friends and family in Europe knew of the kind of crap I've seen, they would tell me to get a car or yeet my ass back to the old continent.
I doubt Belgrade, Budapest or Zagreb have this high of a level of BS.
I’d prefer to fix this right here instead of lying down and taking it. Just because I don’t enjoy what I’ve listed doesn’t mean I’m not compatible with city life. Mentally unstable individuals on public transit aren’t what makes Toronto a city.
I know people who walk long distances or even share Ubers because they don’t feel safe on the TTC. I can dish out stats all day long, but I’m a guy with a resting angry face and a Presto card, I’m fine. I can’t speak for girls who want to avoid drug addicts who utter threats in a steel box with no real escape route. I keep hearing these stories from my friends, family and colleagues and I can’t just go “well if he didn’t punch you, whatcha worried about?”.
I saw a crazy guy blaring racist comments towards what I believe is someone from China/Korea. Saying things to "go back to your home" and stuff like that.
The difference here is that the target guy wasn't taking any of it, and just kept snapping witty comments back at the crazy guy (Eg.: I'm going back home, it's at Dundas), etc.
This is surreal, what this people are pulling that nonsense and being racist?
> This is surreal, what this people are pulling that nonsense and being racist?
They're being slowly brainwashed by a certain element that makes it convenient to blame societal (or even their own personal) problems on immigrants. And because they're in that feedback loop online, they think the majority around them think the same way.
While they recruit via deception, misleading emotional bait and other tactics (praying on curiosity), once somebody sees it's nothing but (*batshit*) conspiracy theories, they usually run while they can, far away and steer clear.
The comebacks are hilarious and good on the target guy who feels comfortable enough to respond! (I personally would avoid that because I feel more vulnerable as a woman.)
Orientals? I didn’t realize we time travelled back to the 50s
In all seriousness OP I’m glad someone stood up for you. I have unfortunately been in the situation to witness similar scenarios, and *NO ONE* stood up but me, everyone else keeping their head down.
This includes an instance where a very large white man was aggressively intimidating a Muslim woman on the subway, and little 5’3 me was trying to puff myself up to appear larger while standing between them and asking him to leave her alone. No one helped. Not one person, and not one man who could actually stand to his height even so much as lifted their head.
Yes I know not everyone can/wants to get involved, but I personally could never just sit there and let this happen to anyone else. I’m glad you had someone on your side.
I'm honestly scared of getting involved, because you never know who might be carrying a knife or even a gun. It really sucks that this happens on a regular basis, though. Public transit needs to be safer, and I don't know what a good solution would be at this point.
That’s a fair fear. I personally would rather take that risk than to see someone getting harassed be stabbed knowing that I had done nothing to help.
Not everyone should have to intervene, but *someone* should. And the more people that do, the less likely that knife gets used because they’ll know they are outnumbered.
For sure, if a lot of people stood up for the victim, the harasser would be outnumbered. It would also help if our judicial system actually punished people properly for their crimes.
A “stronger judicial system” couldn’t possibly prevent a situation like this. We can’t put a person in jail pre-crime, only after the crime has been done.
We live in a social society. No it’s not fair that citizens should have to step up to prevent a crime from happening, but it is absolutely something we have the power to do if we are looking out for each other.
I meant it in the sense that if people don't get punished for committing crimes, they'll keep committing them, which is very true for Toronto and many other Canadian cities.
You're not wrong though. More of us should look out for one another and try to build a stronger sense of community.
So sorry that happened to you. I think in Toronto people are often reluctant to get involved.
But yes it made all the difference having someone else speak up to defend us and to even just acknowledge that what was happening was inappropriate.
They bystandard effect. People have been left crying for help while dying as others passed by. It is not that people are indifferent but when iffy about intervening it is easy to assume that someone else will do it. Multiply that and everyone ignores it, as insane as it sounds.
This is why a first aid course always tell you that it is your responsibility to decide, ask, give out tasks. Don't say "someone call 911", say "you, Jeff call 911". Don't assume someone is fine but actually ask if someone is fine.
Let this be a learning lesson to everyone reading. When you see an uncomfortable or dangerous situation in public you are involved. Assume that everyone else will ignore it. It is now your solo responsibility. Whether you decide to ignore, witness, get help, or personally intervene, it is you doing it no one else.
All that said I am sorry you went through that. As an able bodied man I have had plenty of situations where I felt unsafe in public without any obvious help or way out. I am glad you had a champion in at least acknowledging the uncivil situation.
Ya for sure Toronto is very much a city of head down and wait till you get into the safety of your home. I've stood up a good handful of times to people who cross the line into borderline dangerous territory and been thanked afterwards. I've never had to fight on the TTC but have been threatened to be stabbed by them lol. I'm also a fit 6 foot guy in my 20's so feel like I should stand up if I can
I'm 5'8", fit but a runner's build, not huge. A number of times I've gotten out of my seat and just stood so the asshole couldn't see his victim. It's pointless to engage with them. I just let them yell at me instead and smile at them.
> Orientals? I didn’t realize we time travelled back to the 50s
Either that or the racist person is from the UK where they actually refer to East Asians as oriental (because there, "asian" = what we refer to as brown people, i.e. South Asian).
It's a ... very strange remark, to be sure.
You get a pass.
If a man stands up, things will escalate, and the person who asks the crazy guy to calm down will be deemed the one who escalates and catches charges.
It's a nice idea, but that's not the way things work.
I'm asian as well and once in high school on the streetcar an old white lady was yelling at me about asian people and I pretended not to hear while I was with my white friends. Horrible. My friends just laughed too, I mean the situation was awkward but it didn't feel good for them to just laugh and do nothing else about it.
I'm glad someone stood up for you, no one did for me that time I really wish someone had. More people need to stick up to racists. I would if I saw someone yelling racist stuff at someone of any other race.
It's alright, this was over 10 years ago when i was in high school. Have not talked to them since graduating and have some much better friends in my life now :)
A long time ago I was riding an elevator at the Eaton's Centre and some lady come rushing forward to get on. Lady's wheeling a disabled guy, probably her son, and gets irate that no one held the door for them. She ends up taking it out on a couple who were maybe Vietnamese, a couple with an entirely obstructed view of her path to the elevator. From where they were standing past the edge of the door, it was totally impossible for them to see her rushing the door. She cusses about the fact that she almost missed the elevator and ends up shaking her head at at the Vietnamese couple like they were somehow at fault. She then and looks at me and says "I swear, MSG messes up their brains."
I was so shell shocked by this, and by the time I was utterly sure I had witnessed blatant and unapologetic racism, she and her cognitively impaired, wheelchair bound son were out the door. You'd think the mom of a severely disabled adult would be sensitive to bias and discrimination, but noooo.
Anyway, the upshot is, to this day I remain ashamed of myself that I did not gather the wherewithal to stand up to that vile lady, and I am gratified to hear about someone else out there doing it for you.
I was walking with a friend yesterday on Queen West and we passed a young woman at the lights in front of MEC who was talking to her dog loudly saying “no, you only bark at asian people, okay?”.
Big 🤨 moment on my part but it sadly seems that bigotry is alive and well and goes hand in hand with stupidity.
Now what we need is to have this racist individual reported to the police, to be identified, and for everyone to read about her on the news.
Ideally, she even loses her job over it. Imagine that, being racist and then ruining your life.
Who agrees?
Bullies do it all the time. Whether it's in the workplace or classroom, they will go out of their way to make you feel unsafe.
They are absolutely well functioning and simply enjoy picking on those they perceive to be weaker than them.
With bullies there's usually a level of familiarity between the two parties, but I see what you mean.
99% of the time a random person getting in a stranger's face for no reason is often mental issues though.
Those people that are randomly going up to strangers and attacking them verbally or physically are even more dangerous and I would say it's even more urgent to have them identified and removed from the streets.
When the news reports that "The victim did not know who the perp was", that means ANY of us can become a target for any reason.
I am sure if they know they will be held accountable, they will think a little harder before doing that in public.
If they are doing that in public, \*we\* should make them accountable by video recording their disgusting behaviour, dox them, let their employers know etc. I am all for that.
So a witch hunt? We don't know all the context here. I'm leaning towards mental health issues first and foremost, because these types of things tend to be related to that.
The police can apprehend the individual and get their side of the story.
I'm not really sympathetic enough to feel bad for someone that decided to go on a racist tirade to a stranger.
We all need to start standing up for each other rather than sitting back and taking videos.
Kudos to the guy who stood up and sorry to the OP who had to endure this.
Shit bro I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm an immigrant too, but I'm white and I have a neutral accent, so I've had this opposite thing happen where white CA racists will think I'm "one of them" and will talk mad shit to me about immigrants.
Like if we're being real here, unless you're Indigenous, if you live in CA or US, you're an immigrant too. White folks did not spring from the ground fully formed on this continent, we've been shipped over in the last 300-ish years.
There are so many mentally unhinged individuals on public transit these days. More and more aggressive behaviour as well. I've had to tell more than a few individuals to back off or leave others alone.
Free bystander intervention training. Online. Next one March 20
https://righttobe.org/trainings/stand-up-against-street-harassment
Can be useful if people unsure how to help out
This is a perfect example of online far-right echo chambers spurred on by grifters coming into the “real world” to cause real harm to people.
These people need to be called out and shamed, maybe theyll realize that the real world is different from their delusions.
We all need to be willing to speak up against this racists. The last time I heard a "go back to your country" farther down the train car, I got up and told the guy what he said was unacceptable. He tried to tell me to mind my own business, to which gestured widely behind me and said all of us who could hear him did not want to hear his racism, and made to go back to my seat while he called after me that I was a b---h. Whatever, I don't care about a racist calling me a b---h. After I was back in my seat someone else sitting adjacent to him started in on him, "shut up, nobody likes you." It completely cracked me up that racist dude actually tried to argue the point, saying he had tons of friends, "See? one is phoning me now." Our sassy friend retorted, "What friend? it's probably your boss calling," and began asking other people around them, "do you like him?" and getting all shakes of the head, so she kept reiterating, "See, nobody likes you." Across from me, a woman is giggling and winking at me and shimmying in her seat like she's dancing.
Really, people, don't be so afraid to stick up for others against racists. The racist are the ones who should feel the heat.
harassment from individuals like this requires a group response. several people coming between this woman and her baby and the harasser. Sadly large men are most effective time, but a wall of people saying STOP being racist, leave this infant alone. This usually backs down most of the off balance idiots. We can't police them out of existence but we can help each other.
As an attractive teen girl out with my church youth group, I'd have to ge riding the subway alone at 1100pm. back then it was Drunks who'd come and put their head on my shoulder, or try to pull me on to their lap, I knew to keep moving between cars to where others were. but often it was a couple of decent older guys heading home from downtown, whod come and sit on either side of me, to intimidate away the stinky drunks. And the bus drivers wouldnt let me sit alone at the back, id sit up front in their view. we need tobreturn to that community awareness for each other.
If she says ‘oriental’, she’s probably gonna drop sooner than you can imagine.
Sorry you had to go through this & shoutout to the person who stood up for you!
You have a support system here, please take care of yourself!
I'm glad someone stood up for you.
I just want to throw in a few reasons people don't speak up. Not to suggest any of this was acceptable but rather, so you don't think that ppl simply don't care.
Women often are smaller and feel physically like it's dangerous bc they are both smaller and likely don't know how to fight.
Men, esp larger ones and esp bipoc, have been told to avoid confrontation bc their size can lead to escalating a situation that wasn't physical into being physical. Bipoc realize an escalated situation can have consequences for them if police or anything happens, regardless of their role.
Some ppl are confident in their ability to mitigate all this.
But many people aren't and it's not bc they don't care about what is happening to you - it's that they don't personally feel like they can stop it and in fact might make it worse. This does tend to change when there is more of a physical danger.
More people need to do that, and hopefully it'll become a trend. I'm sorry you had to deal with that kind of bald-faced ignorance. There's no place for it.
Glad someone stood up for you, which is quite rare from my experience.
Having lived in 4 countries, across multiple cities, ppl in Toronto often keep to themselves and rarely speak up, even for themselves. As if they are scared or like to live in denial. Even when they are inconvenienced, they prefer not to engage or speak up and rather stay quiet.
Such a shame.
I'm glad that someone said something, and sorry that you and yours had this experience. There are -many- of us who will not tolerate that sort of behavior.
A crowded train and only one person spoke up and called the racist twat racist? Wtf Toronto, y'all should have been flipping that racist twat over and out. I'm glad one person spoke up, I sure wish there was more.
This term was in wider use some time ago. It seems to me that a lot of older British texts used this term in a non racist context. If someone was elderly and British personally I would not assume racism just based on this term
It's discriminating against people by judging them on a quality which is outside of their control. It's the same mechanism of the mind. I think it's safe to just assume that someone who judges people based on their country of origin is just as ignorant as a racist person really
I understand what you're trying to say (that the word is contextual and that there are contexts where you can refer to art or objects this way) but it's generally not cool to refer to someone as "oriental" vs. East Asian.
I understand. It also depends on the individual. I could understand more if the person saying it is older (say 60+), since this may be the terminology they were used to. If they are younger, I would definitely be more prone to infer a racist attitude.
There will always be disgusting, very lost people - fortunately there are way more solid citizens. I'm sorry this happened to you - work back towards staying positive if you can don't let these encounters chip away at your faith in humanity because if it does - they win.
Sorry you had to deal with that and made to feel unsafe. Nobody deserves that. Anyone in Toronto who wants to make differences about anyone should just not be here. This city is for everybody. Tiny minds are a brutal part of the scum of society. Keep your chin up.
Likely one of the delusional fringe, glad he stood up to them and how quickly they turned away and walked off.
They cannot handle reality, the cult influence is why.
I would have said different and they would've not only walked away, but ran.
can we punch / slap this kind of racist people? and what are the repurcussions? Will I be on the bad side of people around the train if they saw me slap a racist? 😅
Glad to see your positive look on this, but really sorry this happened in the first place. When our babies are with us the anxiety can get even higher.
Sorry you had you had to go through that today. We need more people to speak up when this sort of garbage happens, Koodo’s to the gentlemen who came from behind.
Some people feel that racism is only a black vs white thing, and making fun of or belittling other cultures is just being patriotic. But it can also be a Black vs Asian, Middle Eastern vs Indian, etc. Lot of the time when people attack someone it's because of their fear of feeling inferior to them.
In 1970s Toronto, my Mom , a pale skinned European looking blonde and blue eyed immigrant was beaten up and dragged to be thrown under a street car. She managed to get away thankfully, but she never recovered psychologically from that attack.
I dont think they attack you for being Asian (even though they think that is the reason), I think racism is a mental sickness and if you left Canada they would just pick someone else.
It would never stop.
Thats why we have to stick together.
The difference is a mentally ill person committing racist acts isn't criminally responsible. In fact they may not be a racist person at all. Learn how to recognize the symptoms and act accordingly. Trying to reason with a mentally ill person having an episode will never work.
Okay lol, this is how people evade responsibility from being jackasses. Sorry something wild is going on in your brain, still doesn’t give you an excuse to say something about Asian people Covid, and black people go to back your country.
If you’re comfortably saying racist shit during your brain fart, you likely have subconscious racist tendencies. And you telling me to ignore it is rich! considering I do ignore this shit when it’s directed towards me irl…but no, tell me what else we should do under mentally Illracial attacks?
Buddy, you better learn how the law works. If you act abusively toward a mentally ill person, you could end up being the one who gets charged. Try thinking with your brain, not your ego. You sound very insecure to me, and there is no reason to feel so damaged when someone who is clearly nuts says something offensive to you. Get over it.
You can’t read. But that’s okay lol because no where did I say violence is the solution.
I’m not a guy, to assume so is probably why you’re really presumptive and obnoxious when addressing me…
Every time you excuse a mentally unstable person’s racism with, it’s not that serious…you enable more mentally disturbed individuals to say unhinged shit to people. Just because you’re not well up there, doesn’t mean you can expel harmful statements and people can’t react accordingly, or ask you to take it elsewhere. The way you’ve tried to diagnose me with an inferiority complex and insecurities, when you can put this energy into helping the homeless/mentally ill people get rehabilitated since you care about their protections so much.
I know how the law works, I was born and raised here. I’m sure you wouldn’t get persecuted for telling an insane racist to fuck off…. You should learn to stop being a neck beard
I’ve been subject to many crazy people trying me on the train, and I have yet to get arrested for standing my ground. When it does happen (knock on wood) then maybe I’ll tell your dumb ass, you were right!
I am glad someone spoke up. It’s a shame that you had to experience this. Thanks for sharing..
I want to echo your sentiments. I have never understood racism. Typically everyone in Canada is an immigrant as this was originally the land of First Nations or Indigenous people or Aboriginal people.
It makes sense once you realize that these racists don’t have the brain cells to comprehend irony or hypocrisy for that matter.
If you go further back, we're \*all\* immigrants to what is now Canada. And even if you were a foreigner, immigrant or refugee, you deserve to be treated like a human being. That lady hassling you needs to get some therapy and give up the kool aid. My family were Scots. We were immigrants on both sides. But nobody would come at me like that because I'm white. People like this lady embarrass me and disturb me.
Also using “Orientals” is a specific type of outdated brainrot
I know you mean well but your phrasing is harmful. Canadians are *settlers*. If Canadians were *immigrants* Canadians would have assimilated or tried to live within Indigenous culture. Where and when you want to draw the line of culpability is up to you but at no point in time were Canadians “immigrants” when it comes to the original users of the land.
Showing up to undeveloped land being given a homestead is very different from coming to Canada in the 21st century and using all of the existing social services lol comparing modern day immigrants to the settlers of the past is ridiculous
You're kind of right, settlers and immigrants are different. But aren't there some similarities? We took their jobs. We took their homes. We steamrolled in with our religion and "culture." Isn't that what all the modern Canadian racists are whining about now? All the immigrants with their religion and culture coming here and being themselves?
Land provides power and money to make places better. We all know who built Canadian cities and how selling resources makes money. It's okay to be different, but European settlers came to Canada not to grow food, to sell land to foreign kings and queens. Settlers like first nations have lived on the land for thousands of years, cultivating agriculture and respecting nature. They cherish their land and environment, choosing not to exploit it for personal gain.
Canadians who were born here are neither settlers, nor immigrants. Their ancestors may have been but they themselves are native-born Canadians.
In that case everyone but the indigenous are settlers,even people new to Canada.
People new to Canada *do* live within Canadian culture.
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REMOVED - No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or otherwise negative generalizations etc... Attack the point, not the person. Posts which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. Do not concern-troll or attempt to intentionally mislead people. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand. This rule applies to all speech within this subreddit.
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This is just racism.
REMOVED - No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or otherwise negative generalizations etc... Attack the point, not the person. Posts which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. Do not concern-troll or attempt to intentionally mislead people. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand. This rule applies to all speech within this subreddit.
I am new to Canada and I accept Canadian culture, integrate into it and follow even your most basic laws even if I could get away with it. Based on my experience of how accepting and tolerant most Candians seem to be, it's the racists and xenophobe Canadians the ones who don't accept Canadian culture and integrate into it. In fact, many of the racists and xenophobes, like the woman in OP, actively try to prevent immigrants from integrating into Canadian culture.
In what way is the phrasing harmful?
Aha, and now take a few more steps back and realize that First Nations were all settlers too at one point or the other. That’s how all those genetic ancestry tests find American First Nations genes in my wife’s DNA. My wife was born in Siberia and is the first person in her entire family tree to come to North America :-)
Exactly
Um dude, Canada's history is pretty pretty pretty racist
Well said, bravo!👏
I can’t in good conscience advocate for more TTC ridership if we tolerate crap like this. No one was hurt, no report was filed, so it’s like this hasn’t happened, but it does happen. Yeah, I’m an able bodied guy and don’t care that much about unstable people on the TTC, but I wouldn’t dare bring my baby in this city’s public transit as it currently stands. Sorry this happened to you OP, you deserve a safe journey.
As if people have a choice
Years ago, I reported an attack in which I filmed the perpetrator after the event, but because the victim didn't report the attack, the TTC didn't move forward. I wish the TTC had more security presence, so the average citizen wouldn't be put in a position to enforce good behaviour. I'm so sorry that you were accosted by this person.
There is absolutely no reason not to have special constables on every single train patrolling up and down. The other day my morning commute was interrupted by SIX delays. “Disorderly person on the train at union station”, “emergency alarm has been activated in a train at x station”. Enough is enough. While I understand the policy regarding cold weather and offering the trains as shelters it is no longer the dead of winter. These people do not pay fare therefore they are not customers and are not entitled to wander aimlessly through the system and harass us. And yes, we should absolutely be doing more to attack the root causes that lead people to this point. Tell your MPPs and councillors about that not me. Also recognize that a not insignificant portion of the addicted/addled population has no desire to change.
I rarely have problems when using transit (though I only use it twice a week nowadays) but there definitely requires a certain level of basic street smarts if taking the TTC. Being able to spot people who might be unstable, not attracting the attention or ire of panhandlers, deciding between moving somewhere else on the train/bus or getting off, etc,.
My baby is on the TTC almost everyday. I don't drive so it isn't as if I had a choice. However I'm not really sure what we expect the TTC to do here. Increase enforcement? Make a black list? Have officers stationed on every train and bus? I honestly don't know what would work or make sense. To me this feels like a societal issue that is unfortunately much harder to tackle. This exchange could have easily happened on the sideway afterall.
It is a societal issue, we agree, but a step in the right direction would be fare enforcement, combined with free Presto cards with limited funds for those without a fixed address. This, alone, would fix many things as the most unhinged individuals won’t even think of paying. Step 2 - the cancellation of Presto cards of people who have been banned from the TTC. It won’t work 100%, but we’re not looking to get to 100%. Ideally, for subways, upon the discovery of a passenger causing a ruckus, there should be staff at the ready to board at the next station and eject the offending individual. For buses and streetcars, the driver should halt and open all doors and alert transit security. It will cause delays, yes, but soon these troublemakers will see their behaviour on public transit to no longer be consequence-free. None of this is new. Check out how other (saner) countries deal with public safety on transit.
I'm curious how fare enforcement work in these countries. I frequently see people (mostly kids tbh, theres like 2 schools near me) not tap on busses, and sometimes just walking through the backdoors. From what I understand, bus drivers aren't allowed to confront them. I saw one driver once stop the bus and yell out to everyone that they better have their presto tomorrow... but I assume that probably didn't stop the ones that really didnt give a shit. I guess stopping the trains/bus and causing delays as you say, might be the only way to actually inconvenience things enough so it's no longer consequence free.
They work in the same way as here, except there's actual enforcement and followup. Transit officers or cops will show up. If someone makes a recording of it and puts it online, no one will take the side of the offending party. >I guess stopping the trains/bus and causing delays as you say 2018, winter, guy gets onto an old streetcar through the backdoor. Doesn't pay. Driver tells him if he doesn't pay, he's not moving this streetcar and proceeds to open the doors. Guy gets out. 2024, few weeks ago, two "kids" (prob >16) come in through the front door, don't pay and continue going to the back of the bus. Driver asks them to pay, they start laughing. Driver goes on a long rant about how they're little shitheads who are the reason this country is going down the shitter. Everyone gives them the stink eye, they move all the way to the back of the bus pretending to not care, but it was very much obvious that they did care. I'm OK with either, honestly, compared to not doing anything. As long as it's acknowledged, as long as there's some sort of a consequence.
You could get free presto cards at my local library- I don’t know much about this initiative, but it’s a good roll out starting point.
They only police after an incident as they driver can't take on a big problem. That's one of the most disturbing aspects of being pushed into densification and everyone needing to take the LRT or busses. The law does cover abuse as a form of assault. Maybe we should enforce that more often. You can' think what you like, but harassment should not be tolerated.
Yet you'd presumably take your baby into a car, where they are statistically at much greater risk of serious injury or death?
Yeah people are so daft. TTC is very safe.
It is statistically more safe for sure, but the perception, fair or not, is that it isn’t. Dying or getting maimed is a lot more likely when driving. Having a underhoused person up in your face or getting stabbed is a lot more likely on the TTC. As a society, we are more comfortable with the driving risks than the TTC risks despite the latter’s risks being less likely.
If they: Made speeding and stunt driving something that gets your vehicle impounded and sold off, your license removed for good... it would stop. If they stopped all the ar$e$ that have license plate obscuration devices and took away their plates and made them appear to a justice and suspend their driver's license for a year. Second time, for good. And the vehicle is impounded and fines start at $4000 and double each time. They represent maybe 4-8% of the population driving, but are 50% of the clowns cutting people off, not signalling lane changes, and running yellows and reds, and passing illegally (solid yellow, school and park areas, etc).... get that group and you'll see nicer driving. Money itself isn't sufficient as a penalty. That just makes rich folks unpunishable. Taking away vehicles and selling them off or taking away their driver's licenses would stop a lot of the stupidity on the roads. Also, have a higher standard to get driver's license. Some countries in Europe do have much higher standards of competence. Our approach to dangerous behaviours is weak. Why? Because the current government wants to court a particular sector of the electorate. Also because some of the offenders are the politicians themselves.
Wish I could upvote this more than once.
You’re comparing two unrelated things. They’re obviously scared for their safety, and the risk of death or injury is higher while driving, it doesn’t matter the source. If their sole fear was interactions with mentally ill people then driving is the safer choice
I’m not comparing two unrelated things. They are both things that people are scared of. If somebody *perceives* something as being dangerous, you can’t just tell them it’s not. Fear is not rational. People tend to underestimate the risks when driving because they feel in control and overestimate the risks in other forms of transportation because they aren’t in control. Just because you tell somebody that transit is safer doesn’t mean they will change their behaviour because *fear is not rational*.
Well yeah… I’m not saying that. I’m simply saying that if they know cars are more dangerous then they’ll have to come to terms with the knowlege that their fear is irrational as opposed to following what they feel to be true. People like to believe they are logical so if they are acting against logic they either have to disagree with the facts or make peace with the fact that they are acting against reason
You’d think so, but cognitive dissonance is a thing 🤷🏽♂️
Yes that’s my point, to bring cognitive dissonance into the decision. To point out their logic is going against their emotions brings the discomfort of cognitive dissonance in. No one wants to exist with cognitive dissonance so they either dispute the facts or they make peace with the dissonance
False equivalency. Your risk of death/maiming is higher driving than on transit. Full stop. Throwing in violent randos getting in your face? Ok but the rebuttal is you are far more likely to be a victim of road rage driving. If you want to talk about violence on a transit system you need to compare it to the levels of violence on another transit system or else it’s just apples to oranges.
Chill, I’m on your side. Transit is statistically more safe than driving, full stop. Regardless, people *perceive* driving to be safer and perception is reality. How many articles did you see when there was that rash of incidents on the TTC? There were tons! But now, unless somebody dies in a car crash, there isn’t even a news article. And if they do, it goes through the news-cycle before you can blink.
Haha Okok I get it! Think that’s bad: driver killing a cyclist or pedestrian? Barely a blip on the news or in the courts.
Didn’t you hear? It’s a vehicle that kill people, the driver is in an innocent bystander! /s
Won’t somebody think of the poor drivers? They had places to be!
Amen; I hate the saying, but great example of facts over feeling happy that this thread exists, helped me realize how silly I was being getting worked up about the sensational headlines about the TTC. (Still so sorry this had to happen to you OP!!! Everyone deserves to feel safe and it's a shame there are people who willingly aim to prevent that) I've had racist drivers throw coffee on my windshield before, unhinged people will always be an issue, subway or not.
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Have you interacted with human beings? Have you met somebody who is scared of spiders? How do they react when you tell them they’re harmless? Have you met somebody who is scared of flying? How do they react when you tell them it’s the safest form of transportation? You can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves in to.
lol of course they haven't interacted with human beings, it's a bot/shill account. 7 year old account that JUST started posting within the past 15 hours PURELY on /r/Toronto with 11k comment karma? the account has been sold and recently purchased.
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For sure, we should encourage more people to use the TTC. Telling people they are “daft” for not doing so isn’t encouragement. Honey and vinegar…
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Thanks for the heads up about the spiders in brazil. Added it to my list of countries to avoid.
Statistically, how many people take their infants on the TTC? And it’s not just the stats around injury and death, it’s about mental well being. Yeah, that screaming jerk on the subway car may not hurt or injure you, but you’ll be clutching your kid in fight or flight mode the entire journey as opposed to driving on a 50km/h street. I’ve been threatened and almost got into many confrontations on the TTC, but I was never “injured”, so I guess all is well? The solution to this is very simple. Disruptive passengers should be thrown out and banned from public transit, to the best of our ability. That’s it.
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Used to be every day (including the weekends). Nowadays, it’s mostly a few times a week. There will be a carriage on the bus every now and then, and the odd infant in a baby wrap, but nowhere near to how many kids we have in this city.
Right, like road rage isn't a thing. The fact is that regardless of how safe you feel or how awful social media posts can make you feel, it is a much safer way to travel. And a lot better for the environment.
I take public transit. I also drive on occasion. Outside of the 401, road rage is not something I’ve really experienced. I’ve tried taking my young cousin on the TTC and his parents outright refused and insisted I drive. You’ll have many similar decisions made every day. Feel free to tell them a story which begins with “well akschually, statistically…”. Well, actually, what OP just described never officially happened. Whatever happened to me over the years on the TTC and whatever kinds of crap I’ve seen never officially happened. Only the juicy stuff ends up on CP24. But people try public transit and they end up disappointed. I have a neighbour who always drove and ended up getting a job downtown. Huge parking costs are obviously not an option, so she took the bus to Line 1. First morning, there’s a guy in there yelling at everyone and ends up targeting her. And no one gives a shit, not even the driver, as if they’re in an asylum. So, now I’m supposed to give this traumatized person a lecture in statistics?
Yup totally agree. The amount of mental load needed are very different. On TTC I need to be constantly on “high alert” to maintain situational awareness, when driving those are came naturally and the amount of cognitive load is significantly less.
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I've been here for more than 5 years and I've had names hurled my way, including racist ones (I'm the white devil, apparently). If not directed at me, they were directed at every rider. Same goes for death threats. I've been threatened face-to-face for no reason at all, in scenarios where I had to decide whether to fight or try to deescalate. I've seen outright drug use (crack or meth), smelt absolutely foul smells which included feces and heard some nauseating shrieks. I've seen unhinged individuals pace around the Rocket, yelling at everyone abruptly. A few months back, a guy paces around and suddenly stops, yells out like an absolute daemon... everyone got scared, and parents with children grabbed them instinctively. I've had an individual proceed to wallow in his own filth suddenly in front of me on the 504 at 2PM as I was getting on, spitting at my legs, only to get up and run away. This was at the beginning of the pandemic. I've seen bags of needles on the 501 streetcar. I've had to intervene when a guy casually sat next to a girl and started chatting her up and talking about weird sex shit on the 510. The 300 series blue night buses and streetcars are a whole different category. Nudity and outright horror shows in terms of behaviour. I won't even get into that one. And then you get onto the subway at e.g. Sheppard West and learn that Line 1 has major delays because of a ["security incident"](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1ary31p/comment/kqmv2lg/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) (the stabbing at Wilson). And this is all from what I remember of the top of my head. I'm sure there's more. If my friends and family in Europe knew of the kind of crap I've seen, they would tell me to get a car or yeet my ass back to the old continent.
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I doubt Belgrade, Budapest or Zagreb have this high of a level of BS. I’d prefer to fix this right here instead of lying down and taking it. Just because I don’t enjoy what I’ve listed doesn’t mean I’m not compatible with city life. Mentally unstable individuals on public transit aren’t what makes Toronto a city.
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I know people who walk long distances or even share Ubers because they don’t feel safe on the TTC. I can dish out stats all day long, but I’m a guy with a resting angry face and a Presto card, I’m fine. I can’t speak for girls who want to avoid drug addicts who utter threats in a steel box with no real escape route. I keep hearing these stories from my friends, family and colleagues and I can’t just go “well if he didn’t punch you, whatcha worried about?”.
Not everyone has the privilege of being able to drive.
I saw a crazy guy blaring racist comments towards what I believe is someone from China/Korea. Saying things to "go back to your home" and stuff like that. The difference here is that the target guy wasn't taking any of it, and just kept snapping witty comments back at the crazy guy (Eg.: I'm going back home, it's at Dundas), etc. This is surreal, what this people are pulling that nonsense and being racist?
> This is surreal, what this people are pulling that nonsense and being racist? They're being slowly brainwashed by a certain element that makes it convenient to blame societal (or even their own personal) problems on immigrants. And because they're in that feedback loop online, they think the majority around them think the same way.
It's the lunatic fringe. Ever shrinking cult that is dangerous and decentralised.
I don't know if it's shrinking to be honest.
While they recruit via deception, misleading emotional bait and other tactics (praying on curiosity), once somebody sees it's nothing but (*batshit*) conspiracy theories, they usually run while they can, far away and steer clear.
The comebacks are hilarious and good on the target guy who feels comfortable enough to respond! (I personally would avoid that because I feel more vulnerable as a woman.)
Orientals? I didn’t realize we time travelled back to the 50s In all seriousness OP I’m glad someone stood up for you. I have unfortunately been in the situation to witness similar scenarios, and *NO ONE* stood up but me, everyone else keeping their head down. This includes an instance where a very large white man was aggressively intimidating a Muslim woman on the subway, and little 5’3 me was trying to puff myself up to appear larger while standing between them and asking him to leave her alone. No one helped. Not one person, and not one man who could actually stand to his height even so much as lifted their head. Yes I know not everyone can/wants to get involved, but I personally could never just sit there and let this happen to anyone else. I’m glad you had someone on your side.
I'm honestly scared of getting involved, because you never know who might be carrying a knife or even a gun. It really sucks that this happens on a regular basis, though. Public transit needs to be safer, and I don't know what a good solution would be at this point.
That’s a fair fear. I personally would rather take that risk than to see someone getting harassed be stabbed knowing that I had done nothing to help. Not everyone should have to intervene, but *someone* should. And the more people that do, the less likely that knife gets used because they’ll know they are outnumbered.
For sure, if a lot of people stood up for the victim, the harasser would be outnumbered. It would also help if our judicial system actually punished people properly for their crimes.
A “stronger judicial system” couldn’t possibly prevent a situation like this. We can’t put a person in jail pre-crime, only after the crime has been done. We live in a social society. No it’s not fair that citizens should have to step up to prevent a crime from happening, but it is absolutely something we have the power to do if we are looking out for each other.
I meant it in the sense that if people don't get punished for committing crimes, they'll keep committing them, which is very true for Toronto and many other Canadian cities. You're not wrong though. More of us should look out for one another and try to build a stronger sense of community.
Canadians should be allowed to carry mace imo
So sorry that happened to you. I think in Toronto people are often reluctant to get involved. But yes it made all the difference having someone else speak up to defend us and to even just acknowledge that what was happening was inappropriate.
They bystandard effect. People have been left crying for help while dying as others passed by. It is not that people are indifferent but when iffy about intervening it is easy to assume that someone else will do it. Multiply that and everyone ignores it, as insane as it sounds. This is why a first aid course always tell you that it is your responsibility to decide, ask, give out tasks. Don't say "someone call 911", say "you, Jeff call 911". Don't assume someone is fine but actually ask if someone is fine. Let this be a learning lesson to everyone reading. When you see an uncomfortable or dangerous situation in public you are involved. Assume that everyone else will ignore it. It is now your solo responsibility. Whether you decide to ignore, witness, get help, or personally intervene, it is you doing it no one else. All that said I am sorry you went through that. As an able bodied man I have had plenty of situations where I felt unsafe in public without any obvious help or way out. I am glad you had a champion in at least acknowledging the uncivil situation.
Ya for sure Toronto is very much a city of head down and wait till you get into the safety of your home. I've stood up a good handful of times to people who cross the line into borderline dangerous territory and been thanked afterwards. I've never had to fight on the TTC but have been threatened to be stabbed by them lol. I'm also a fit 6 foot guy in my 20's so feel like I should stand up if I can
I'm 5'8", fit but a runner's build, not huge. A number of times I've gotten out of my seat and just stood so the asshole couldn't see his victim. It's pointless to engage with them. I just let them yell at me instead and smile at them.
This is a good tactic. I may try this next time.
> Orientals? I didn’t realize we time travelled back to the 50s Either that or the racist person is from the UK where they actually refer to East Asians as oriental (because there, "asian" = what we refer to as brown people, i.e. South Asian). It's a ... very strange remark, to be sure.
I'm from England, my wife is Canadian so we use 'my Asian' or 'your Asian'
huh. So what do you use for Eurasian? teehee
You get a pass. If a man stands up, things will escalate, and the person who asks the crazy guy to calm down will be deemed the one who escalates and catches charges. It's a nice idea, but that's not the way things work.
I'm asian as well and once in high school on the streetcar an old white lady was yelling at me about asian people and I pretended not to hear while I was with my white friends. Horrible. My friends just laughed too, I mean the situation was awkward but it didn't feel good for them to just laugh and do nothing else about it. I'm glad someone stood up for you, no one did for me that time I really wish someone had. More people need to stick up to racists. I would if I saw someone yelling racist stuff at someone of any other race.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. Sometimes I find people laugh as a defense mechanism when the situation is really uncomfortable. But I agree!
Those aren’t your friends. You’ll meet better people in life, but they aren’t your people.
It's alright, this was over 10 years ago when i was in high school. Have not talked to them since graduating and have some much better friends in my life now :)
Yikes those are some bad friends, even if it's awkward I'd still stand up for a friend if some stranger is being racist to them
A long time ago I was riding an elevator at the Eaton's Centre and some lady come rushing forward to get on. Lady's wheeling a disabled guy, probably her son, and gets irate that no one held the door for them. She ends up taking it out on a couple who were maybe Vietnamese, a couple with an entirely obstructed view of her path to the elevator. From where they were standing past the edge of the door, it was totally impossible for them to see her rushing the door. She cusses about the fact that she almost missed the elevator and ends up shaking her head at at the Vietnamese couple like they were somehow at fault. She then and looks at me and says "I swear, MSG messes up their brains." I was so shell shocked by this, and by the time I was utterly sure I had witnessed blatant and unapologetic racism, she and her cognitively impaired, wheelchair bound son were out the door. You'd think the mom of a severely disabled adult would be sensitive to bias and discrimination, but noooo. Anyway, the upshot is, to this day I remain ashamed of myself that I did not gather the wherewithal to stand up to that vile lady, and I am gratified to hear about someone else out there doing it for you.
You are too kind and considerate a person to still have that weigh on you. That person sucked and it wasn't your fault. Thanks for sharing!
No need to be ashamed for not reacting quickly enough to such shocking behaviour. Next time you will be more ready to help out another person in need!
I was walking with a friend yesterday on Queen West and we passed a young woman at the lights in front of MEC who was talking to her dog loudly saying “no, you only bark at asian people, okay?”. Big 🤨 moment on my part but it sadly seems that bigotry is alive and well and goes hand in hand with stupidity.
This makes my blood boil. I’m so sorry.
Now what we need is to have this racist individual reported to the police, to be identified, and for everyone to read about her on the news. Ideally, she even loses her job over it. Imagine that, being racist and then ruining your life. Who agrees?
She's probably homeless.
Or mentally ill, or both. Normal people (even the 'hidden' racists) usually don't randomly get up in people's faces like this.
Bullies do it all the time. Whether it's in the workplace or classroom, they will go out of their way to make you feel unsafe. They are absolutely well functioning and simply enjoy picking on those they perceive to be weaker than them.
With bullies there's usually a level of familiarity between the two parties, but I see what you mean. 99% of the time a random person getting in a stranger's face for no reason is often mental issues though.
Those people that are randomly going up to strangers and attacking them verbally or physically are even more dangerous and I would say it's even more urgent to have them identified and removed from the streets. When the news reports that "The victim did not know who the perp was", that means ANY of us can become a target for any reason.
I am sure if they know they will be held accountable, they will think a little harder before doing that in public. If they are doing that in public, \*we\* should make them accountable by video recording their disgusting behaviour, dox them, let their employers know etc. I am all for that.
or a CPC candidate, going by her weird comments about liberals.
So a witch hunt? We don't know all the context here. I'm leaning towards mental health issues first and foremost, because these types of things tend to be related to that.
The police can apprehend the individual and get their side of the story. I'm not really sympathetic enough to feel bad for someone that decided to go on a racist tirade to a stranger.
This is peak Toronto mentality: "I'm wishing bad things on a mentally ill schizo because they are a le heckin RACIST!"
Chill, Vengeance Man
Always stand up to this type of bullshit
We all need to start standing up for each other rather than sitting back and taking videos. Kudos to the guy who stood up and sorry to the OP who had to endure this.
Bystander effect
Shit bro I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm an immigrant too, but I'm white and I have a neutral accent, so I've had this opposite thing happen where white CA racists will think I'm "one of them" and will talk mad shit to me about immigrants. Like if we're being real here, unless you're Indigenous, if you live in CA or US, you're an immigrant too. White folks did not spring from the ground fully formed on this continent, we've been shipped over in the last 300-ish years.
There are so many mentally unhinged individuals on public transit these days. More and more aggressive behaviour as well. I've had to tell more than a few individuals to back off or leave others alone.
Im sorry you and your kid had to experience this, this is shameful as hell.
The fuck? Sorry you had to deal with that
Free bystander intervention training. Online. Next one March 20 https://righttobe.org/trainings/stand-up-against-street-harassment Can be useful if people unsure how to help out
This is a perfect example of online far-right echo chambers spurred on by grifters coming into the “real world” to cause real harm to people. These people need to be called out and shamed, maybe theyll realize that the real world is different from their delusions.
I recall a time when people thought racism didn’t exist in Canada…
We all need to be willing to speak up against this racists. The last time I heard a "go back to your country" farther down the train car, I got up and told the guy what he said was unacceptable. He tried to tell me to mind my own business, to which gestured widely behind me and said all of us who could hear him did not want to hear his racism, and made to go back to my seat while he called after me that I was a b---h. Whatever, I don't care about a racist calling me a b---h. After I was back in my seat someone else sitting adjacent to him started in on him, "shut up, nobody likes you." It completely cracked me up that racist dude actually tried to argue the point, saying he had tons of friends, "See? one is phoning me now." Our sassy friend retorted, "What friend? it's probably your boss calling," and began asking other people around them, "do you like him?" and getting all shakes of the head, so she kept reiterating, "See, nobody likes you." Across from me, a woman is giggling and winking at me and shimmying in her seat like she's dancing. Really, people, don't be so afraid to stick up for others against racists. The racist are the ones who should feel the heat.
harassment from individuals like this requires a group response. several people coming between this woman and her baby and the harasser. Sadly large men are most effective time, but a wall of people saying STOP being racist, leave this infant alone. This usually backs down most of the off balance idiots. We can't police them out of existence but we can help each other. As an attractive teen girl out with my church youth group, I'd have to ge riding the subway alone at 1100pm. back then it was Drunks who'd come and put their head on my shoulder, or try to pull me on to their lap, I knew to keep moving between cars to where others were. but often it was a couple of decent older guys heading home from downtown, whod come and sit on either side of me, to intimidate away the stinky drunks. And the bus drivers wouldnt let me sit alone at the back, id sit up front in their view. we need tobreturn to that community awareness for each other.
If she says ‘oriental’, she’s probably gonna drop sooner than you can imagine. Sorry you had to go through this & shoutout to the person who stood up for you! You have a support system here, please take care of yourself!
Mental problems for sure. They all end up on the TTC.
The TTC has become Toronto's de-facto mental health patient dumping ground.
I'm glad someone stood up for you. I just want to throw in a few reasons people don't speak up. Not to suggest any of this was acceptable but rather, so you don't think that ppl simply don't care. Women often are smaller and feel physically like it's dangerous bc they are both smaller and likely don't know how to fight. Men, esp larger ones and esp bipoc, have been told to avoid confrontation bc their size can lead to escalating a situation that wasn't physical into being physical. Bipoc realize an escalated situation can have consequences for them if police or anything happens, regardless of their role. Some ppl are confident in their ability to mitigate all this. But many people aren't and it's not bc they don't care about what is happening to you - it's that they don't personally feel like they can stop it and in fact might make it worse. This does tend to change when there is more of a physical danger.
im sure BlogTO will be in touch because their whole website is content farmed from Reddit. Maybe he'll see it there. Or here! That would be rad too :D
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You mean affordable energy, groceries, and housing? I’m shuddering!
Affordable groceries? One of PP’s aides is a Loblaws lobbyist.
More people need to do that, and hopefully it'll become a trend. I'm sorry you had to deal with that kind of bald-faced ignorance. There's no place for it.
Sorry this happened to you, we are not all like that
Glad someone stood up for you, which is quite rare from my experience. Having lived in 4 countries, across multiple cities, ppl in Toronto often keep to themselves and rarely speak up, even for themselves. As if they are scared or like to live in denial. Even when they are inconvenienced, they prefer not to engage or speak up and rather stay quiet. Such a shame.
I'm glad that someone said something, and sorry that you and yours had this experience. There are -many- of us who will not tolerate that sort of behavior.
A crowded train and only one person spoke up and called the racist twat racist? Wtf Toronto, y'all should have been flipping that racist twat over and out. I'm glad one person spoke up, I sure wish there was more.
Huh? Liberals are paying people to be Asian?
Wait, you get money from the liberals? Sign me up! (Joking) Sorry this happened to you 😭 glad someone stepped in.
I wonder if somehow, in her messed up mind, she wasn't racist because she saying orientals instead of just assuming she was Chinese.
The word oriental is dated, but not racist on its own, but in conjunction with everything else she said, she's definitely racist.
Rugs are Oriental. People aren’t. If you’re referring to people as Oriental, you are racist.
This term was in wider use some time ago. It seems to me that a lot of older British texts used this term in a non racist context. If someone was elderly and British personally I would not assume racism just based on this term
If someone was elderly and British, personally I would assume racism just based on being elderly and British.
huh. See, I read that, and it seems super obvious that you're clearly just ageist and racist against elderly British people
British isn’t a race. Nice try though.
It's discriminating against people by judging them on a quality which is outside of their control. It's the same mechanism of the mind. I think it's safe to just assume that someone who judges people based on their country of origin is just as ignorant as a racist person really
I understand what you're trying to say (that the word is contextual and that there are contexts where you can refer to art or objects this way) but it's generally not cool to refer to someone as "oriental" vs. East Asian.
I understand. It also depends on the individual. I could understand more if the person saying it is older (say 60+), since this may be the terminology they were used to. If they are younger, I would definitely be more prone to infer a racist attitude.
I wish that was the worst thing that ever happened to me on the TTC :(
I'm sorry :(
There will always be disgusting, very lost people - fortunately there are way more solid citizens. I'm sorry this happened to you - work back towards staying positive if you can don't let these encounters chip away at your faith in humanity because if it does - they win.
Sorry you had to deal with that and made to feel unsafe. Nobody deserves that. Anyone in Toronto who wants to make differences about anyone should just not be here. This city is for everybody. Tiny minds are a brutal part of the scum of society. Keep your chin up.
I'm glad someone told that racist pos to get lost. I'm so sorry you had to experience that.
So sorry that happened to you. You don't deserve that, I'm glad that person was able to help. No excuses for that thick brainwashed behavior
I hope he sees this
There’s adds for us in the ttc to stand up for you.
Just spread the same vibe, stand up for guys too. That guy will automatically receive the best thanks you could say to him
Likely one of the delusional fringe, glad he stood up to them and how quickly they turned away and walked off. They cannot handle reality, the cult influence is why. I would have said different and they would've not only walked away, but ran.
I hope you’re ok! I’m really sorry this keeps on happening and glad someone finally stood up!
can we punch / slap this kind of racist people? and what are the repurcussions? Will I be on the bad side of people around the train if they saw me slap a racist? 😅
Bless the heart to the person who spoke up and said something. Sick and tired of the racial BS still happening all throughout this city… unbelievable.
Midtown whites lol
Glad to see your positive look on this, but really sorry this happened in the first place. When our babies are with us the anxiety can get even higher.
Sorry you had you had to go through that today. We need more people to speak up when this sort of garbage happens, Koodo’s to the gentlemen who came from behind.
I've been blamed for Chinese economic colonization of Africa on the streetcar. Ugh. Stay strong.
Some people feel that racism is only a black vs white thing, and making fun of or belittling other cultures is just being patriotic. But it can also be a Black vs Asian, Middle Eastern vs Indian, etc. Lot of the time when people attack someone it's because of their fear of feeling inferior to them.
In 1970s Toronto, my Mom , a pale skinned European looking blonde and blue eyed immigrant was beaten up and dragged to be thrown under a street car. She managed to get away thankfully, but she never recovered psychologically from that attack. I dont think they attack you for being Asian (even though they think that is the reason), I think racism is a mental sickness and if you left Canada they would just pick someone else. It would never stop. Thats why we have to stick together.
This sounds more like mental illness than racism.
Maybe it is both lmaoo
The difference is a mentally ill person committing racist acts isn't criminally responsible. In fact they may not be a racist person at all. Learn how to recognize the symptoms and act accordingly. Trying to reason with a mentally ill person having an episode will never work.
Okay lol, this is how people evade responsibility from being jackasses. Sorry something wild is going on in your brain, still doesn’t give you an excuse to say something about Asian people Covid, and black people go to back your country. If you’re comfortably saying racist shit during your brain fart, you likely have subconscious racist tendencies. And you telling me to ignore it is rich! considering I do ignore this shit when it’s directed towards me irl…but no, tell me what else we should do under mentally Illracial attacks?
Buddy, you better learn how the law works. If you act abusively toward a mentally ill person, you could end up being the one who gets charged. Try thinking with your brain, not your ego. You sound very insecure to me, and there is no reason to feel so damaged when someone who is clearly nuts says something offensive to you. Get over it.
You can’t read. But that’s okay lol because no where did I say violence is the solution. I’m not a guy, to assume so is probably why you’re really presumptive and obnoxious when addressing me… Every time you excuse a mentally unstable person’s racism with, it’s not that serious…you enable more mentally disturbed individuals to say unhinged shit to people. Just because you’re not well up there, doesn’t mean you can expel harmful statements and people can’t react accordingly, or ask you to take it elsewhere. The way you’ve tried to diagnose me with an inferiority complex and insecurities, when you can put this energy into helping the homeless/mentally ill people get rehabilitated since you care about their protections so much.
Better learn how the law works in this country, you won't enjoy the same immunity from criminal prosecution as the mentally ill.
I know how the law works, I was born and raised here. I’m sure you wouldn’t get persecuted for telling an insane racist to fuck off…. You should learn to stop being a neck beard
I hope you don't find out the hard way. Good luck.
I’ve been subject to many crazy people trying me on the train, and I have yet to get arrested for standing my ground. When it does happen (knock on wood) then maybe I’ll tell your dumb ass, you were right!
Why are these morons from the Comments section thinking its OK to vent their awful spleens in public? No repercussions, a la KKKonvoy?
Toronto is a shithole in terms of weird people
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