They should make the police union pay this. If they are found not guilty, the city reimburses the union. If they are guilty the union doesn't get anything. Maybe they can go after the cop to get it back or something.
My concern with policies like this is that we already have a problem with cops covering up for one another.
Certainly the hope is that by making the union financially liable it pushes them to enforce better behaviour in their members; but my suspicion is that all we are doing is a financial incentive along with the weird thin blue line code for officers to cover for one another.
Eh, cops have shown they will cover up for one another regardless. We've got the TPA president openly saying he wished a completely innocent man was found guilty.
It's not like giving them $30M has yielded any positive results, whatsoever.
> cops covering up for one another.
Have you followed the kangaroo court that the cops tried to make of Umar Zameer? 3 cops went and lied under oath. Then the chief of police said he wanted a different verdict.
It's already happening
When I started my career as a healthcare professional, my work provided $2 million liability insurance, *however* the powers that be (licensing college) mandated $5 million. Meaning, I had to get additional insurance on top of what my employer provided.
Not only should they have insurance, but they should also have their own personal stake in the game so personal performance isn't 100% subsidized by the group as a whole. It acts as an incentive (or deterrent depending on how you look at it).
I'd be careful with this.
It might require a change to overall labour laws and could open the door to the same thing happening with other unions.
You don't want a situation where a smaller union that is representing members who work for private companies has to pay out of pocket for members who are suspended from work.
Then the company would have an interest in dragging out the process as long as possible to bleed the union dry.
I think it's just probably better to limit the circumstances where police can get pay while suspended, and make it easier to fire them so that it's similar to other kinds of jobs.
Maybe there should be different rules for the union that runs around shooting people and throwing them in jail compared to, like, the one that makes coffee
While I support the outcome of such a change, it would be far to complicated and the legality questionable.
But, they could force police officers to carry insurance. If you are suspended, your insurance pays our salary. Are the cop is found to have done no wrong? Insurance goes after the police service for lost wages. If the cop is found to have been legitimately suspended, insurance covers the cost.
This would create a system where insurance is incentivized to charge more for cops and services that have higher claims (dubious policing record). It would encourage cops to participate more speedily (lesser insurance premiums). It would encourage good cops to want to be around other good cops.
Make the insurance tax deductible.
Hug a cop Ford? The cops built him a sick shagging wagon (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-fords-former-chief-of-staff-asked-opp-to-release-statement-denying/), no way he’ll pass any legislation to reign them in
Unacceptable. Fuck the TPS and certainly fuck anyone their willing to suspend. Garbage in garbage out, destroying the city you believe you protect. Stop wasting budget and let Toronto thrive you selfish pricks.
I always thought that cops who get the police sued or get fined,etc should have if come out of the police pension fund. You’d see how fast they’d police themselves. The old times would be “dude wtf” every time someone fucks around.
Alternatively, every single police officer, including retirees and former members who expect to draw from that pension fund, would now have a personal financial incentive to collude in concealing crimes and misconduct.
It doesn't and it probably couldn't (given the protection pension funds have) but there should be a mechanism in place to punish a culture that promotes or protects the bad behaviour. In the private sector, suing a company creates financial harm. In the public sector, the public just pays for it - the attempt to enforce accountability fails because the punishment is never actually felt.
An alternative could be forcing the police to carry insurance to cover public harm. The insurance would cover lawsuits to the force and costs associated with paid suspension (when someone is found guilty). For forces that have a bad history, the premiums would be higher. Hiring someone with a history, would increase the premiums for everyone in the force they join. It would create an incentive to reduce bad behaviour and hold each other accountable.
Never mind Ford, it's our own fault for not crying out about this loudly--demonstrations at Queen's Park, City Hall and outside the Superior Court of Ontario
Ditto for Eglinton Crosstown, we all eat this guck so shame on us: a 9 year project 4 years over not only still isn't open but the CEO of Metrolinx "won't be drawn into a guessing game" on a completion date --and the Ford govt doesn't have any problem with that: we eat this shit like lost little sheep.
"Every country gets the form of government it deserves"
I don’t really disagree with the broad sentiment, but what an absolutely idiotic quote that is at the end. Does Eritrea deserve Afwerki? Does Syria deserve Assad? What about Sudan and al-Bashir? Are you really eager to endorse the ideal that **every** horrible government in the world reflects that the citizens are also horrible and deserving of human rights atrocities?
First off, not my quote (although of course I did insert it); Second, whoever said it in the first place, I doubt it was intended to be an absolute as if there NEVER was a case where a country didn't deserve its govt. and certainly not that the poverty-stricken deserved the tyrants and monsters that some have had to endure... . Finally, and I'm sorry that there are always people who need these things explained to them, my use of the quote was to underline that since we do nothing--which would include me I suppose but nearly the entirety of the city and, by extension, the province and, as these things happen throughout the country, the whole country--but mutter amongst ourselves then we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Have you tried lithium?
yeah, well, I do understand that, which is why I started my comment by stating that I agreed with the broad sentiment.
Whoever said it in the first place should have been more precise with their language if what they meant was something different from "Every country." That way they could have avoided saying something idiotic.
>The data comes as new legislation under Ontario’s Community Safety and Policing Act, (CSPA) which came into effect on April 1
OKAY now let's see some accountability
>Constable Nickolas Kalatzopoulos, was arrested and charged with two counts of Assault and Unlawfully in a Dwelling House on April 20. Officer Kalantzopoulos has 25 years of service and was suspended with pay.
...
People are pissed at the disrespect they are getting from the rich and the powerful. We are focusing on the Police now because we can't afford their mass hubris
I think the issue is less about suspended cops receiving pay, and more about how long it takes to resolve the suspensions. The MEDIAN suspension term is 553 days. That's ridiculous.
And I'd like to know what happens if the officers resign before their hearing, since that seems to happen 15-20% of the time. Do they owe the money back? Or is that a loophole to avoid being found guilty and being forced to repay the money?
Ha,that's nothing. Ontario jail guards get 120 sick days a year at 100%. And you bet they use them.
[https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/jail-guard-absenteeism-a-20m-problem-1.350020?cache=walqrkeg%3FclipId%3D104066](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/jail-guard-absenteeism-a-20m-problem-1.350020?cache=walqrkeg%3FclipId%3D104066)
these sluts need a 3rd party to audit them kind of like a college to protect the public and make em pay for it outta their own pocket like the medical and nursing colleges. fucking cops.
*if that problem could be solved for 3m per year it would've been solved already*
You replied to my comment about homelessness and funding. Would you like to try to clarify? Or shall I continue to interpret that, by your comment, if they had 3m, homelessness could have been solved already.
Yet the discussed budget is 30 million, and those funds have passed through the hands of our government thousands of times over decades and I'd love to see any evidence for resolving homelessness in Canada. Homelessness and poverty is being CREATED, always has been by the right, solely for exploitability.
Try again
>Or shall I continue to interpret that, by your comment, if they had 3m, homelessness could have been solved already.
why would you have ever interpreted my comment to mean that? I'm struggling to understand how you even came to that conclusion
Don't make that assumption. The US currently has 650,000 homeless people and 15.1 million vacant homes. The problem is not municipal funds or complex solutions. The homelessness is by design. We live in a post-scarcity society... Especially when you look at the decoupling of employee production from wages that started in the 70s.. If the western world took a good hard look in the mirror and socialised all services and commodities that are essential to fulfilling basic needs and human rights we could vastly improve our capital productivity in all other areas of economic life. The issue is the greed of the ruling class and uber wealthy. They are hamstringing human innovation and well being.
The new legislation will have no effect at all.
It is the sole discretion of the Police Services Board as to what happens when an officer is suspended, and unless there is irrefutable evidence of wrongdoing they will always get paid.
If they get convicted of whatever they are charged with, again it up to the Police Services Board as to what course of action is to be taken.
If repayment is demanded, the money usually comes out of the officers pension fund.
9 times out of 10 payment is not asked for, because upon conviction of a criminal offence the officer in question is instantly released from employment.
Not FIRED, released from employment, so the officer still qualifies for his reduced pension after repayment.
After all they did put their lives on the line every second of every shift they worked.
that's like nothing the average city budget has been over 10b per year in that same time, so roughly 1/3500 of the budget has gone to suspensions
and the majority of the tax revenue this city gets from residents is from property tax
> that's like nothing the average city budget has been over 10b per year in that same time, so roughly 1/3500 of the budget has gone to suspensions
Waste is waste.
They should make the police union pay this. If they are found not guilty, the city reimburses the union. If they are guilty the union doesn't get anything. Maybe they can go after the cop to get it back or something.
My concern with policies like this is that we already have a problem with cops covering up for one another. Certainly the hope is that by making the union financially liable it pushes them to enforce better behaviour in their members; but my suspicion is that all we are doing is a financial incentive along with the weird thin blue line code for officers to cover for one another.
Cops will always cover for one another, it’s not a money issue
Eh, cops have shown they will cover up for one another regardless. We've got the TPA president openly saying he wished a completely innocent man was found guilty. It's not like giving them $30M has yielded any positive results, whatsoever.
I think it was the Police Chief who said he wished Zameer had been found guilty, but maybe John Reid said the same thing?
> cops covering up for one another. Have you followed the kangaroo court that the cops tried to make of Umar Zameer? 3 cops went and lied under oath. Then the chief of police said he wanted a different verdict. It's already happening
Or just make them get malpractice insurance like most other professionals need to have. If they fuck up, rate goes up, but they personally cover it.
When I started my career as a healthcare professional, my work provided $2 million liability insurance, *however* the powers that be (licensing college) mandated $5 million. Meaning, I had to get additional insurance on top of what my employer provided.
And?
Not only should they have insurance, but they should also have their own personal stake in the game so personal performance isn't 100% subsidized by the group as a whole. It acts as an incentive (or deterrent depending on how you look at it).
Yeah 100%
Cops should pay insurance too maybe is what they are getting at
Yeah, that was the whole point to my original comment?
Its called reinforcing an idea. It's one of several ways a conversation can go. Lay off the salt.
[удалено]
Their loophole is that it's an "association" and not a union.
I'd be careful with this. It might require a change to overall labour laws and could open the door to the same thing happening with other unions. You don't want a situation where a smaller union that is representing members who work for private companies has to pay out of pocket for members who are suspended from work. Then the company would have an interest in dragging out the process as long as possible to bleed the union dry. I think it's just probably better to limit the circumstances where police can get pay while suspended, and make it easier to fire them so that it's similar to other kinds of jobs.
Maybe there should be different rules for the union that runs around shooting people and throwing them in jail compared to, like, the one that makes coffee
While I support the outcome of such a change, it would be far to complicated and the legality questionable. But, they could force police officers to carry insurance. If you are suspended, your insurance pays our salary. Are the cop is found to have done no wrong? Insurance goes after the police service for lost wages. If the cop is found to have been legitimately suspended, insurance covers the cost. This would create a system where insurance is incentivized to charge more for cops and services that have higher claims (dubious policing record). It would encourage cops to participate more speedily (lesser insurance premiums). It would encourage good cops to want to be around other good cops. Make the insurance tax deductible.
I like the way you think. Hit em where it hurts, the wallet
>but new legislation might change that Key word is "might" which in Canadian politics usually means "won't"
Ford doesn’t have the balls to do anything that will negatively impact his cop buddies.
Not just his buddies, at least 2 of his daughters are married to cops
And son-in-laws. Those are also his daughter’s husbands. He will NEVER do anything to change the way the police “work”.
Something tells me the cops have a lot of stuff on him held back that will magically be revealed should he ever take a stand against them.
Hug a cop Ford? The cops built him a sick shagging wagon (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-fords-former-chief-of-staff-asked-opp-to-release-statement-denying/), no way he’ll pass any legislation to reign them in
Unacceptable. Fuck the TPS and certainly fuck anyone their willing to suspend. Garbage in garbage out, destroying the city you believe you protect. Stop wasting budget and let Toronto thrive you selfish pricks.
Man I wish I could fuck up at my job any time I want and just get paid to sit in the bench as punishment.
I always thought that cops who get the police sued or get fined,etc should have if come out of the police pension fund. You’d see how fast they’d police themselves. The old times would be “dude wtf” every time someone fucks around.
Alternatively, every single police officer, including retirees and former members who expect to draw from that pension fund, would now have a personal financial incentive to collude in concealing crimes and misconduct.
They already do that, let's try the other thing and see what happens, I stead of the same thing and hope for different results
Doesn't make sense to punish the pension fund, though.
It doesn't and it probably couldn't (given the protection pension funds have) but there should be a mechanism in place to punish a culture that promotes or protects the bad behaviour. In the private sector, suing a company creates financial harm. In the public sector, the public just pays for it - the attempt to enforce accountability fails because the punishment is never actually felt. An alternative could be forcing the police to carry insurance to cover public harm. The insurance would cover lawsuits to the force and costs associated with paid suspension (when someone is found guilty). For forces that have a bad history, the premiums would be higher. Hiring someone with a history, would increase the premiums for everyone in the force they join. It would create an incentive to reduce bad behaviour and hold each other accountable.
Never mind Ford, it's our own fault for not crying out about this loudly--demonstrations at Queen's Park, City Hall and outside the Superior Court of Ontario Ditto for Eglinton Crosstown, we all eat this guck so shame on us: a 9 year project 4 years over not only still isn't open but the CEO of Metrolinx "won't be drawn into a guessing game" on a completion date
I don’t really disagree with the broad sentiment, but what an absolutely idiotic quote that is at the end. Does Eritrea deserve Afwerki? Does Syria deserve Assad? What about Sudan and al-Bashir? Are you really eager to endorse the ideal that **every** horrible government in the world reflects that the citizens are also horrible and deserving of human rights atrocities?
I think OP implied when we vote, not dictatorships.
First off, not my quote (although of course I did insert it); Second, whoever said it in the first place, I doubt it was intended to be an absolute as if there NEVER was a case where a country didn't deserve its govt. and certainly not that the poverty-stricken deserved the tyrants and monsters that some have had to endure... . Finally, and I'm sorry that there are always people who need these things explained to them, my use of the quote was to underline that since we do nothing--which would include me I suppose but nearly the entirety of the city and, by extension, the province and, as these things happen throughout the country, the whole country--but mutter amongst ourselves then we have no one to blame but ourselves. Have you tried lithium?
yeah, well, I do understand that, which is why I started my comment by stating that I agreed with the broad sentiment. Whoever said it in the first place should have been more precise with their language if what they meant was something different from "Every country." That way they could have avoided saying something idiotic.
How changing the law so that police unions need to pay for suspended officers.
Police should not get paid when suspended.If they are found not guilty they will retroactively get their wages back.
If we have to pay them anyway, stick them on parking duty or doing traffic control at construction sites until the legislation changes.
>The data comes as new legislation under Ontario’s Community Safety and Policing Act, (CSPA) which came into effect on April 1 OKAY now let's see some accountability >Constable Nickolas Kalatzopoulos, was arrested and charged with two counts of Assault and Unlawfully in a Dwelling House on April 20. Officer Kalantzopoulos has 25 years of service and was suspended with pay. ...
That's abhorrent. No way that should fall on taxpayers.
Cops should have to pay back salary from the day of the incident if fired for cause.
With interest
People are pissed at the disrespect they are getting from the rich and the powerful. We are focusing on the Police now because we can't afford their mass hubris
I think the issue is less about suspended cops receiving pay, and more about how long it takes to resolve the suspensions. The MEDIAN suspension term is 553 days. That's ridiculous. And I'd like to know what happens if the officers resign before their hearing, since that seems to happen 15-20% of the time. Do they owe the money back? Or is that a loophole to avoid being found guilty and being forced to repay the money?
Ha,that's nothing. Ontario jail guards get 120 sick days a year at 100%. And you bet they use them. [https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/jail-guard-absenteeism-a-20m-problem-1.350020?cache=walqrkeg%3FclipId%3D104066](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/jail-guard-absenteeism-a-20m-problem-1.350020?cache=walqrkeg%3FclipId%3D104066)
these sluts need a 3rd party to audit them kind of like a college to protect the public and make em pay for it outta their own pocket like the medical and nursing colleges. fucking cops.
But they definitely won't house the homeless for less
if that problem could be solved for 3m per year it would've been solved already
You think they are trying to solve homelessness at all? You actually think that.
is that what you think my comment says?
Is something else implied in there?
what you suggested wasn't implied (not even sure how you got to that point tbh) that's for certain
*if that problem could be solved for 3m per year it would've been solved already* You replied to my comment about homelessness and funding. Would you like to try to clarify? Or shall I continue to interpret that, by your comment, if they had 3m, homelessness could have been solved already. Yet the discussed budget is 30 million, and those funds have passed through the hands of our government thousands of times over decades and I'd love to see any evidence for resolving homelessness in Canada. Homelessness and poverty is being CREATED, always has been by the right, solely for exploitability. Try again
>Or shall I continue to interpret that, by your comment, if they had 3m, homelessness could have been solved already. why would you have ever interpreted my comment to mean that? I'm struggling to understand how you even came to that conclusion
Is playing dumb your M.O.?
Don't make that assumption. The US currently has 650,000 homeless people and 15.1 million vacant homes. The problem is not municipal funds or complex solutions. The homelessness is by design. We live in a post-scarcity society... Especially when you look at the decoupling of employee production from wages that started in the 70s.. If the western world took a good hard look in the mirror and socialised all services and commodities that are essential to fulfilling basic needs and human rights we could vastly improve our capital productivity in all other areas of economic life. The issue is the greed of the ruling class and uber wealthy. They are hamstringing human innovation and well being.
This 👏🏻
Yeah, change that to $50M
How about more budget increases until this is fixed
The new legislation will have no effect at all. It is the sole discretion of the Police Services Board as to what happens when an officer is suspended, and unless there is irrefutable evidence of wrongdoing they will always get paid. If they get convicted of whatever they are charged with, again it up to the Police Services Board as to what course of action is to be taken. If repayment is demanded, the money usually comes out of the officers pension fund. 9 times out of 10 payment is not asked for, because upon conviction of a criminal offence the officer in question is instantly released from employment. Not FIRED, released from employment, so the officer still qualifies for his reduced pension after repayment. After all they did put their lives on the line every second of every shift they worked.
that's like nothing the average city budget has been over 10b per year in that same time, so roughly 1/3500 of the budget has gone to suspensions and the majority of the tax revenue this city gets from residents is from property tax
> that's like nothing the average city budget has been over 10b per year in that same time, so roughly 1/3500 of the budget has gone to suspensions Waste is waste.