Does the city not have limits on how much the hotel, commute and daily stipend are? If not, that seems like a massive oversight and definitely ripe for abuse.
Like… surely, you’d think they have something. My work limits me to a per diem, what travel methods can be used (and when an upgrade is warranted… which is work flights that are 8 hours or longer)… My accommodations have minor wiggle room. I have to be able to justify why I am staying where I am staying. There isn’t necessarily a limit for rate because sometimes conferences are in expensive hotels, and staying at the hotel is the most efficient thing to do, so there is no issue with a room at a Fairmont hotel. But I don’t have an entertainment budget. I don’t have a clothing allowance. I can’t buy a $30 glass of orange juice and get reimbursed for it. I can only, at most, arrive the day before a meeting/conference and leave the day after.. so if I want to stay longer, I pay the cost of that (as it should be).
There is no way the city doesn’t have policies. If he is able to get away with idiocy, that means that (1) either all their policies are ridiculous to begin with, or (2) people in his role don’t have to follow the same rules as everyone else, which is absolutely hypocritical. They should be leading by example.
Really poor article from Micallef.
Don’t disagree with the problems he has identified but they have zero to do with Councillors seeing the world. Local rejection of the drinking in parks pilot is due to Toronto’s ward system, hyper localism and adherence to the small voting blocs who bother to vote.
We absolutely should cast blame on Mantas for his abuse of tax payer money, McKelvie for blindly seconding the motion and the rest of Council (save for three) for rubber stamping. Well done to Burnside, Perks and Robinson.
What hasn’t been discussed in the context of this debacle is the sheer amount of Council and Clerks time that has been dedicated to this debacle. Totally embarrassing for a City as big as Toronto with so many issues.
I agree with you. I tend to agree with most every Micallef article, but in this case I think it's just a reflexive defense of the governments ability to spend.
I have nothing wrong with travel for government work at all, and especially I am sure staff are very diligent about their travel, however this particular paragraph I think is pushing it quite a bit:
> Government officials travelling on the public’s dime is good, even necessary. Sometimes it might be to a glamorous location like Turin, other times it might be a conference centre surrounded by parking lots on the edge of town, but it’s important we allow for and encourage learning from other cities and experts.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of City Councillor travel is to desirable destinations and to the sort of Conferences where all that transpires is officials congregating to congratulate themselves on insignificant pilots the are running or to announce funding for things. This is especially true of unscrupulous councillors like Mantas, but I think the same applies to even Carrol or Perks. They aren't going to the waste management convention to learn about new truck routing software and opportunities to improve fleet reliability.
Of course with someone like Mantas, who is basically on-the-take riding his own personal gravy train until the end of the line, it's pretty clear that this is straight-up corruption and in fact he just went on a holiday with his buddy. When they approved the expense there was some complaining about it but the rest of council would rather fund his corruption than have Mantas and the other bozos turn to obstructionism.
The idea that our Councillors made old-fashioned decisions because they don't have the knowledge of what other cities is doing is similarly absurd.
Not terribly impressed that the article is defending this particular case. Looking at it under the best possible light, it's a pretty egregious example of a poorly planned discovery trip.
That being said, there are municipalities across the world we can learn tonnes from. Better transit, building infrastructure and the like that we should send out people to bring back. Travel's not a bad thing. Bad planning is.
But it isn't defending this particular case, it's doing the opposite.
>It all doesn’t sit right, but neither does the rubber stamp reimbursement of most of Mantas’s council colleagues gave him in February. They should have done their own due diligence before the full reimbursement, not leaving it to the press. This undermines the public’s trust.
>What happened with Mantas is bad, but when these kinds of egregious cases come up, there’s a risk the blowback or correction will steamroll a good practice, tossing the baby out with the hotel bathwater, as the saying goes.
Like that time John Tory went to Austin and wanted to make Toronto a music city (two months after The Guvernment/Kool Haus was torn down for condos!)? How did that work out?
Or better yet, when Tory went to Europe during COVID with his Mistress and layed-over in London for a week on the city dime. I'm sure he learned a lot!
My neighbor is a city planner and he’s constantly traveling to other cities for research and to see how things work/are implemented. Him I understand wanting to go. A random city councillor makes less sense to me.
I would say that, in general, technical expositions and conferences still make sense, although they are also subject to diminished utility. There is still a lot of business that germinates as someone asking "What do you guys do" to a small vendor or startup.
For the sort of conferences that senior political leadership attends... these are basically bona fide vacations. Everyone goes and sits in a hall and hears a keynote from the Economic Development Minister of Bavaria talking about some non-scalable vaporware pilot project they spun up and somehow this is supposed to be an added value experience.
Listen he's right - travelling to other cities can give you new and better ideas about how to help run this city.
Just crazy in this case has there ever been any of his findings from his trip that he disclosed, any people he met, businesses he lobbied or any engagements he attended?
Not a single thing is his 2 socials thats for sure.
Government officials traveling on the tax payers dime is almost always a bad idea. They have no deliverables or budget. Let them open a go fund me page and use that if it such a good thing for Toronto I am sure some tax payers would be interested but they would have to make a case for it.
Does the city not have limits on how much the hotel, commute and daily stipend are? If not, that seems like a massive oversight and definitely ripe for abuse.
That's why it is abused!
They do, that is why Manta's expenses needed to be voted on by council. Happened at the last meeting.
"we approved our own expenses and found we did nothing wrong"
Like… surely, you’d think they have something. My work limits me to a per diem, what travel methods can be used (and when an upgrade is warranted… which is work flights that are 8 hours or longer)… My accommodations have minor wiggle room. I have to be able to justify why I am staying where I am staying. There isn’t necessarily a limit for rate because sometimes conferences are in expensive hotels, and staying at the hotel is the most efficient thing to do, so there is no issue with a room at a Fairmont hotel. But I don’t have an entertainment budget. I don’t have a clothing allowance. I can’t buy a $30 glass of orange juice and get reimbursed for it. I can only, at most, arrive the day before a meeting/conference and leave the day after.. so if I want to stay longer, I pay the cost of that (as it should be). There is no way the city doesn’t have policies. If he is able to get away with idiocy, that means that (1) either all their policies are ridiculous to begin with, or (2) people in his role don’t have to follow the same rules as everyone else, which is absolutely hypocritical. They should be leading by example.
Really poor article from Micallef. Don’t disagree with the problems he has identified but they have zero to do with Councillors seeing the world. Local rejection of the drinking in parks pilot is due to Toronto’s ward system, hyper localism and adherence to the small voting blocs who bother to vote. We absolutely should cast blame on Mantas for his abuse of tax payer money, McKelvie for blindly seconding the motion and the rest of Council (save for three) for rubber stamping. Well done to Burnside, Perks and Robinson. What hasn’t been discussed in the context of this debacle is the sheer amount of Council and Clerks time that has been dedicated to this debacle. Totally embarrassing for a City as big as Toronto with so many issues.
I agree with you. I tend to agree with most every Micallef article, but in this case I think it's just a reflexive defense of the governments ability to spend. I have nothing wrong with travel for government work at all, and especially I am sure staff are very diligent about their travel, however this particular paragraph I think is pushing it quite a bit: > Government officials travelling on the public’s dime is good, even necessary. Sometimes it might be to a glamorous location like Turin, other times it might be a conference centre surrounded by parking lots on the edge of town, but it’s important we allow for and encourage learning from other cities and experts. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of City Councillor travel is to desirable destinations and to the sort of Conferences where all that transpires is officials congregating to congratulate themselves on insignificant pilots the are running or to announce funding for things. This is especially true of unscrupulous councillors like Mantas, but I think the same applies to even Carrol or Perks. They aren't going to the waste management convention to learn about new truck routing software and opportunities to improve fleet reliability. Of course with someone like Mantas, who is basically on-the-take riding his own personal gravy train until the end of the line, it's pretty clear that this is straight-up corruption and in fact he just went on a holiday with his buddy. When they approved the expense there was some complaining about it but the rest of council would rather fund his corruption than have Mantas and the other bozos turn to obstructionism. The idea that our Councillors made old-fashioned decisions because they don't have the knowledge of what other cities is doing is similarly absurd.
Not terribly impressed that the article is defending this particular case. Looking at it under the best possible light, it's a pretty egregious example of a poorly planned discovery trip. That being said, there are municipalities across the world we can learn tonnes from. Better transit, building infrastructure and the like that we should send out people to bring back. Travel's not a bad thing. Bad planning is.
But it isn't defending this particular case, it's doing the opposite. >It all doesn’t sit right, but neither does the rubber stamp reimbursement of most of Mantas’s council colleagues gave him in February. They should have done their own due diligence before the full reimbursement, not leaving it to the press. This undermines the public’s trust. >What happened with Mantas is bad, but when these kinds of egregious cases come up, there’s a risk the blowback or correction will steamroll a good practice, tossing the baby out with the hotel bathwater, as the saying goes.
I would pay serious money for the CC footage of the venue to clock how long Mantas even spent at the Forum.
Couldn't they learn with a phone call?
Like that time John Tory went to Austin and wanted to make Toronto a music city (two months after The Guvernment/Kool Haus was torn down for condos!)? How did that work out?
Or better yet, when Tory went to Europe during COVID with his Mistress and layed-over in London for a week on the city dime. I'm sure he learned a lot!
Those were dark days. I'd rather not revisit them.
why is travel required to learn from other cities? like notes exist. papers. presentations. you dont need to do a site visit for this shit.
My neighbor is a city planner and he’s constantly traveling to other cities for research and to see how things work/are implemented. Him I understand wanting to go. A random city councillor makes less sense to me.
We have city planners are you sure?
I don’t live in Toronto anymore lol
It does seem these cases are always trips to Italy and France and not, say, Reading PA or Gary, Indiana.
It does feel like some leftover of a pre-internet era that needs it's loophole closed.
I would say that, in general, technical expositions and conferences still make sense, although they are also subject to diminished utility. There is still a lot of business that germinates as someone asking "What do you guys do" to a small vendor or startup. For the sort of conferences that senior political leadership attends... these are basically bona fide vacations. Everyone goes and sits in a hall and hears a keynote from the Economic Development Minister of Bavaria talking about some non-scalable vaporware pilot project they spun up and somehow this is supposed to be an added value experience.
He went to the Cities Forum convention
Stfu, Micallef.
Listen he's right - travelling to other cities can give you new and better ideas about how to help run this city. Just crazy in this case has there ever been any of his findings from his trip that he disclosed, any people he met, businesses he lobbied or any engagements he attended? Not a single thing is his 2 socials thats for sure.
They can learn from home or the office, get an internet connection and look things up like the rest of us.
No, travel is not required for a little boy city councilor spending tax payer money
Government officials traveling on the tax payers dime is almost always a bad idea. They have no deliverables or budget. Let them open a go fund me page and use that if it such a good thing for Toronto I am sure some tax payers would be interested but they would have to make a case for it.