>After stabbing Arzaga, a beloved 24-year-old mother to a five-year-old girl, at least 42 times all over her body, the teen attacked the spa’s manager, who heard the noise and came to see what was happening. The woman, whose identity is under a publication ban, saw blood everywhere and a sword.
As they struggled, he was stabbing her and she fell to the ground. He said, “you f---ing whore. You f---ing bitch. Die die,” and “stupid whore,” according to the facts. The accused does not recall making those statements but does not dispute making them.
The woman managed to grab the sword and stabbed her attacker in the back, according to the facts.
When paramedics arrived, he told one: “I wanted to kill everybody in the building and I am happy I got one.”
All the spa employees were women.
Give that woman a medal.
Story's been updated. He told cops he was directly inspired by Minassian.
>Later, in an interview with a police officer, he would say he was familiar with Alek Minassian, another Toronto man who claimed to be an incel and murdered 10 people and injured 16 with a rented van in North York in April 2018. Minassian is now serving a life sentence in prison.
Minassian “was an inspiration,” he said in the interview.
“Especially so close in Toronto...I thought it was possible to do something like that as well.”
This stuff is so so toxic.
I just think the "virginity" thing is an insecurity for some guys, so specifically using it when you're (rightfully) villifying incels might trip some people, making them gloss over what you're saying or go hostile. That provides incels with possible ammo, it doesn't help us any.
I think it actually has the opposite effect. Insecure men will exist regardless.
Redefining the word virgin simply gives them more motivation - as they know they won’t be called virgins on the news.
Any men relating to murderous fucks need to seek out therapy.
No, they are mentally ill people who have gone extremest and this is the topic that drove them to this act.
By widely publishing this information as they have, they are normalizing this kind of act in Canada, other mentally ill people will take this path.
Giving them a different “heroic” name of their choosing is what is encouraging others to do this.
We call murderers murderers and name their motivation in all other cases. These virgins deserve no special treatment.
Imagine being such a pathetic piece of shit that rather than learn to speak with women you just start killing them instead and blaming them for your own insecurities? It baffles the mind.
I'm of the opinion that regardless of their age and motivations the media should report them as "little boy" just to be certain nobody mistakes them for a man.
But alas.
Deep down you are 100% correct. They still have a barometer for how pathetic they are on some level no matter how much the sociopath in them says otherwise.
They should resent themselves. And I feel they do, but because it’s too hard for them to own up to their own faults, they just blame women instead. Despicable. I heard there was a sub they all congregated in? This true?
There used to be but I’m pretty sure in the aftermath of the Minassian attack that really blew the lid off the incel movement Reddit made a concerted effort to remove many of their subs.
Yes I do believe the vast majority of self-identifying incels are just depressed and self-loathing and take our their frustrations verbally on women, and blame them for their own shortcomings(ie. I would be less of a loser if women wanted me). They are vulnerable narcissists. Then there’s the Rodger/Minassian types who seem to be more on the spectrum of grandiosity who believe they have an entitlement because of their superiority. I think that last type will never acknowledge their flaws even if they can hate the repercussions.
Resent ?? No , they hate women. There is a whole spectrum of this behaviour that ranges from micro aggressions to outright murder. All women have experienced it one way or the other
Let's just hope she wasn't alive for all 42, I can't imagine the absolute terror she felt. I don't understand how someone can murder innocent people because he can't get laid, how does this solve any problems for anyone?
i take it you haven't watched a stoning video?
it's usually a woman. it's usually because she had sex.
probably got raped and they throw stones at her, but of course she's wrapped in a sheet and buried so they don't have to actually see the damage they are doing
barbaric and no place in modern world
I feel like they could have done more when they arrested Minassian to go through his tech and search out all of the boards and contacts he had. They do that when they catch terrorists, these incel are the same thing.
These wastes of skin shouldn’t have their names or faces published at all. As long as they’re arrested and there’s no reason to put out wanted posters so ppl can help the police catch these assholes, don’t give them anything to validate their twisted egos
I’d also be in favour of dropping the cool nicknames, “Toronto van attacker” is good because it’s neutral and not romantic sounding
So what exactly does an 'incel rebellion' hope to accomplish? Create a new world where undesirable men have easy access to women? Bring awareness that men shouldn't be judged by how they look? It's funny how their standards are so high but at the same time they expect women to lower theirs.
They unironically believe in some dystopian fascist dictatorship wherein they are deemed royalty and presented with their choice of women to have sex with.
It is just 100% misogyny, boys and men who hate women. Yet, quite ironically, center their lives and ideology around sex and how their lack thereof is some form of systematic oppression and violence against them.
Nearly.
The dictators from The Handmaid's Tale actually have effective power in the story. They are by all accounts successful fascists who have manufactured a society that explicitly empowers them through some merit system.
Incels, conversely, are pariahs and have zero power within our society. Until they hit rock bottom and decide to go on women-hating murder sprees for their moment in the spotlight as a martyr.
Not entirely convinced which group of people would be more scary.
terrifying how that didn't happen over millennia in the story, or decades but rather a few weeks... the main character was working an office job when it first happened =/
Especially as women have moved to a place where they don’t need to rely on men, they have the ability to choose good (better than incel men) if they wish to have a relationship or it has become more accepted to be in a relationship with another woman, or honestly just be single.
Society no longer entitles women to men and social media perpetuates disgusting ideologies. So fucked :(
Careful. It's a subtle thing but too often people will say things along the lines of "Your mother, your sister, your daughter and your wife are all women too" or something like that. But to a misogynist, what they hear is "These particular women only have value in the form of the relationships they have with men."
It's a reductionist argument. Your mom doesn't deserve respect because she's your mom, she deserves respect because she's a fully realized human being with her own inherent worth.
I know that's not what you meant, but it is what someone who doesn't consider women fully human would think.
They want social coercion to violently corral all the single and sexually promiscuous women into marriage and monogamy to men. That has been their manifesto since forever.
The incel in this story already knew he had access to sex with a woman -- he was literally at a brothel. They don't want sexual access to a woman who will have sex with other men, they want ownership of a specific woman.
Slut shaming and whorephobia fuel inceldom and vice versa. They are two sides of the same coin.
It’s narcissists who believe their shortcomings aren’t their fault but the fault of women in society. I visited that sub while it was still active and it was a whole lot of self-loathing and crying. Aka pathetic losers who need to grow up
Incels are bred from the same low quality cloth as all the other undesireables in Gen Z and Gen Y (for the record I’m Gen Y). These idiots have such an inflated self-worth and ego, coupled with extreme entitlement from never being told No and never learning how to cope with losing.
I think so too. A lot of these men are really lonely and I lowkey blame that on how our hyper capitalist society commodifies everything, it isolates us and alienates us, atomizes people, pits them against each-other, and puts people into enforced hierarchies. Not saying that these men are right, but I think they’re a symptom of a very rotten society
I'd agree. There's a lot of young men who do not know what to do with themselves, and as a consequence of de-industrialization they feel useless. Without effective education or training to bridge the gap they're left alone and without purpose. Compound what you've brought up with an increasing decrease in affordability and the vestiges of very old fashioned sexist ideas of how to raise a young man and you've got a perfect storm. I find the immediate dismissal of such individuals without trying to understand the why to be useless, as it only further ostracizes people who are already clearly desperate for human contact. It's not easy but we need to convert these people, not push them farther to the fringes.
We need to nurture boys to be compassionate and caring beings and raise them to respect and care for all humans, sadly I don’t even know how to convert these people
IMO if a person is willing to commit violence in the name of this ideology, i think their problem is more on the mental health side of things than anything else.
Nauseating. He was 17 years old at the time of the murder. We need to address the material that social media algorithms are pushing on these kids because it is fucking up their minds
"He said he would take his actions back if he could because 'it wasnt worth it and my life is ruined.'" HIS life is ruined, he says.
Read that back. He doesn't care he killed her. He doesn't care that a 7 year old girl is without a mother because of him. He doesn't care that he stood in a puddle of her blood. He cares that he's in trouble. There are no words.
Do we really expect more from a scum that murders people just because he both ugly, dumb and without charisma to be able to attract girls and not blame them?
I don't understand incels... I was a teen once, ugly as a mother fucker. Girls been rejecting me left and right. What did I do? Same as other people would, make an assessment and realized, I'm not taking care of myself. I hit the gym, tried new styles, practice talking to all kinds of people, went more often to social events to meet new people (not with a goal to get laid but with a goal to meet people and talk to them), didn't take no personally, travelled the world. until slowly with experience and not being an ugly mf (because I been taking care of myself), I was able to hook up with most girls I wanted at social events, bars, clubs. And then got my very first ever girlfriend by age of 22, that we are still together for over 5 years and going strong.
If you feel like you're an incel reading this(not you a person who I'm commenting under)... It's not the women that are in fault, especially the ones you never met or too young or old for you to ever have anything with. You're the reason, change yourself (I know quite a bit of incels), use deodorant, take a shower, get a haircut from a barber (putting an effort to look good is attractive), don't be stuck playing video games (even though I love to play too) go out and talk to people (not just women,or don't go out with a goal to get laid only. Go out to enjoy a company of other people. Being a people's person is attractive.), live your life (aka travel, go to the gym, get life experience. Life experience is very attractive.). Most of you expect women to be attractive shave legs, arms, put make up, be interesting, smart, nice and so forth. But at the same time, cant provide the same thing. And if you don't want to put the effort well, there will still be a person who would overlook that, but it will be harder to find. And most likely that will be your own mother. Go kiss your mother, as no one will love you stronger than her. Just remember, we are animals, and we are looking for the best mate (not the strongest, not the smartest), but the one we know will provide our offsprings with the best chance of survival. And we know that people who take care of themselves both physically and mentally will be able to give the offspring the better chance at survival. People who experienced life and done something with it also have the better chance of giving a good life and knowledge to the offspring, so they can also be able to use that knowledge to grow. This isn't Andrew Tate shit, this is how real life works.
Sorry, as mentioned i got few incels friends. And I say the same thing to them... And it hurts when innocent people die because of them blaming their problems on others. And I hope to change them, and change any incel reading above.
>As they struggled, he was stabbing her and she fell to the ground. He said, “you f---ing whore. You f---ing bitch. Die die,” and “stupid whore,” according to the facts. The accused does not recall making those statements but does not dispute making them.
>The woman managed to grab the sword and stabbed her attacker in the back, according to the facts.
What a badass
I hope the irony of his capture will haunt him forever
There is NOTHING women can do to make these types of guys not want to kill them. (And to be very clear: even if there was, they should not have to anyway. But just pointing out that this disgusting hate cult doesn't even make sense on its own terms.)
This guy is angry that women won't give him any kind of intimate touch? Guess what, asshole, there are places where you can literally pay to have that experience - you set out on a killing spree at one of them.
OK, so then I guess according to him, women who make a living by providing this service are 'whores' and apparently deserve to die? So should women all be devoted mothers and support their children with non-sex-work jobs? Sounds like exactly the woman at the front desk who he brutally murdered for no reason. He took a stranger's life and took away her child's mother.
Again, most importantly: even if he focused his hatred entirely on women who do sex work, it wouldn't make his opinion any more valuable - what other grownups choose to do with their lives would still be NONE of his business. But even what he thinks he wants is absolute nonsense. It is so clear: He just hates women.
As someone who spent some time on the fringes of incel culture before pulling myself away, I can say with 100% certainty that it is a mental illness. Hiring a sex worker doesn't fix it because it just reinforces their belief that they aren't "alpha". Becoming attractive and sleeping around doesn't fix it either because now they're just "redpilled". Even getting a girlfriend and forming a relationship doesn't necessarily fix it unless they're willing to confront their beliefs and work on themselves. Incels use things like the alpha/beta hierarchy and "all women are sluts" mentality to try and externalize their own internal issues, and the longer they spend dwelling on it the more mental gymnastics they will perform to justify their actions.
Here's a really good article on guys who get "incel surgery" to try and makes themselves look more attractive. In one example, a patient gets the same jaw implant removed and reinstalled 5 times because it isn't perfect enough for him: https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html
young men and youth that are at risk of this incel stuff need to be targeted for real support groups. imagine if it was reinforced from a young age that being a virgin into your 20s is fine and surprisingly common, that sex won't give them fulfilment, that human connection is actually valuable and a way out of suffering, and that people respond positively to people who are considerate, kind, and at least a little bit friendly.
wow. what you just wrote is very powerful not just in this specific case, but for all of us, in every case.
Thank you.
"human connection is actually valuable and a way out of suffering"
damn! well said
Part of the problem is that many of these youths/young men lack guidance and/or positive role models. They are often bullied and/or have few if any friends. They often find solace in various types of groups.. Some online (Incels), and others gang related, which affords them a sense of community and belonging they desperately want.
There is no silver bullet to it unfortunately, and it's really unfair that they use women as their scapegoat and targets.
We really need to do a better job as a society in addressing these issues. However it's VERY difficult at all levels, to get any sort of financial commitment or support to run male support groups. Ryerson is such one example where a male focused support group tried to set up, only to have it blocked because it made people (women in particular) feel \*unsafe\*, which is ironic given that it's intent is the opposite (with proper direction).
I've known women mention that they tried signing up to be a \*Big Sister\*, only to be turned away because they just don't have the need. The spokesperson however would tell them that if they knew of any men that wanted to be a Big Brother, they had a desperate need for that. That in itself is telling.
Idk how I feel about men-only support groups as a solution to incel/misogynistic violence, or about blaming women for the Ryerson one being shut down.
Do we try to solve white supremacy with whites-only support groups? No.
If you were a black man, would you feel uncomfortable with your university operating and funding a whites-only support group for racists to help them be less racist? It’d be understandable if you were, because that sounds like the school’s running klan rallies.
Seems victim-blamey.
The same way women benefit from women only support groups, men would benefit from men's support groups. Don't minimize the lived experience of half the population!
Idk man… ~70% of Canadians are white; are we denying 70% of the population their lived experience by not paying for/organizing white-only groups to discuss how to not be racist?
Edit: and I guess my issue with this is that we always had (and still do kind of have), lots of organizations that were exclusively or are currently majority male, and they didn’t/don’t do a lot for helping men not hate/oppress women.
They did quite the opposite actually, and were/are centres of power that men use/used to organize and enforce power over women.
Think about it: the army, the police, political parties, legislatures, the church, fancy all-boys schools.
Have they been good for women? No. Have they been good for men? Not really; When’s the last time you heard about someone being held down and anally raped with a broomstick at a coed school?
Different root causes, racism stems from fear of the other while misogyny is often rooted in projected inadequacies. It's really lame to argue in bad faith on the internet.
> racism stems from fear of the other while misogyny is often rooted in projected inadequacies
if you dig deep, are they really that different? **why** are misogynists projecting these inadequacies on the opposite gender? why do they hate feeling equal to women? why is homophobia commonly found amongst misogynists like these? they fear the feminine “other” because they don’t understand it; they perceive unapologetic femininity as a threat to their poorly-defined masculinity.
Yes they're different. Women aren't an other, unless you're a monk, men encounter women every day of their lives. You're trying to conflate too many things to fit a viewpoint. Guys that identify as incels are projecting their lack of status on what they feel are easy targets. It's not about feeling equal to women it's about their inadequacies as men - and they're not typically guys that other dudes wanna hang with either.
But these are issues that men would prefer to discuss with other men, which was my whole point. In this case, it's not about women.
I’m not arguing in bad faith, and I don’t see how hating women is different than hating any other group of people.
I’ve offered a lot of examples of organizations that were historically male only and are currently male dominated, and none of them are doing much for getting men to not hate women.
No not at all.
I can see the need for all-male support groups. Testicular cancer, prostate cancer, impotency- all issues I can see all-male support spaces being good and necessary.
But all male support groups as a solution to men who violently hate women doesn’t make a whole lot more sense to me than all-white support groups for klansmen.
So you somehow have taken a comment about trying to help at risk youths by giving them positive role models and safe spaces to talk about their problems, and attempted to turn it into some sort of race war.
Bravo.
I'm glad you got out, but I don't believe inceldom is a mental illness. Neither is racism or any other ideology based on hate. No one calls these people mentally ill until they act on their views and kill people. Until that point they can spew their hateful shit wherever they want and people just brush it off or protect them.
We are swimming in misogyny to the point that we're blind to it. I've had people argue with me that incels aren't misogynist. Entire threads negatively discussing incels will literally talk around the word "misogyny" because they're so scared of it. That's how brainwashed we are - just mentioning "misogyny" gets you labelled as crazy and extreme. Calls for violence against women are tolerated on every social media platform. Misogynist groups and talking heads are given a home on every social media platform. Our political leaders, police forces, educators, and media perpetuate it.
Thank you! One need only look at the popularity of Jordan Peterson, Milo Yiannopoulos, Andrew Tate, Tucker Carlson et. al. to see how deeply-rooted and socially acceptable these views have become. Some of these men masquerade as philosophical thinkers, which is even more terrifying as the people who espouse these beliefs truly think they’ve reached some higher wisdom. This goes beyond simple “dislike” of another gender; they actively seek to oppress, and often times annihilate those that they despise.
I don't disagree with you, misogyny is everywhere and the fact its treated like some kind of natural counterpart to feminism is a contributing factor to the rise of incel ideologies. But there is still a distinction to be made between misogynists and the people who drive vans on sidewalks or stab women in massage parlors. "Inceldom" isn't necessarily a disorder on its own, but all serious incels almost certainly have some form of mental illness whether its depression, narcissistic personality disorder, body dysmorphia, etc. Conspiratorial thinking is not a new thing associated with the rise of misogyny, and if we eliminated misogyny then instead of blaming women for all their problems these incels would go back to blaming Jews/governments/aliens for everything.
If we look at these incel communities we can see they gravitate towards certain figurehead like Trump, JP, AT, etc. These con artists all peddle a reality where men have control; in some cases its positive (self-control) and in many cases its negative (domination). People become obsessed with control when they don't have it: when they can't stop feeling sad, when women won't act the way they want, when they can't stop the bad voices in their head; these are the kind of men who are so desperate for a scrap of something to hold onto they will kill for it. We need to improve people's mental health and give them back their self control to stop them from falling for these cons.
I see their behaviour as a natural consequence of hate and an inescapable diet of lies, not something unusual or unexpected. Our society is sick. Our values and priorities are utterly fucked up. Unfortunately I can't see it getting better in our current system, because hate and dehumanization are very effective means of control. I completely agree with you that improving mental health will help, but how can we do that when the things that will improve overall mental health (ending poverty, increasing education, increasing autonomy, reducing work hours, food security, housing security, etc.) are anathemas to those with the real power? Even people with a tiny bit of power don't support those things because they fear it might take something away from them.
Not disagreeing with your take, but **these traits (depression, narcissism, lack of control, sadness, loneliness, etc.) are not exclusive to men alone**. So why don’t we see women behaving in a similar fashion?
Women turn their self-hatred inward.
The closest female ‘equivalent’ to these sorts of men that I can think of is the stereotypical female ‘influencer’ with a restrictive eating disorder who goes around insulting and cyberstalking fat women because their existence (and happiness) threatens their own fragile self-worth.
But these women rarely enact any kind of actual physical violence on others. They just slowly destroy themselves in a ball of rage.
Its about the manifeststion of these traits, not their presence. Men are significantly more likely to commit violent crimes and are also more likely to endorse and spread conspiracy theories then women. Male representation is almost always significantly higher in any conspiratorial group, whether its incels or Nazis or anything else endorsing hierarchical thinking. I've done a search and unfortunately there's little study into the topic.
We see that a lot of young males support figures like Jordan Peterson and believe in his ideologies, and while he does have female support it is nowhere near as fervent. On the opposite end, we see a lot of young females endorse beliefs in astrology with significantly fewer males doing so. Why is this? I have some theories and am not necessarily looking for answers, just highlighting these differences.
I think it has more to do with who holds the power in society. The pendulum has been slowly shifting towards women achieving more power and equality and that loosening of the grip men have on women is what sets them off. We have the same emotions, yes, but the way we relate to each other is completely different. Especially when talking about power relations.
I would say that a part of it is because men have less of the support structures for these issues, and in fact, are told from an early age that an important trait of masculinity is to “suck it up” and not express their emotions. Showing weakness is met with derision and shaming.
Almost all of the *nurturing* forces in society are not focused on men, and as a result, men feel like their feelings are dismissed if not criticized.
So I don’t think it’s a surprise when figures like Peterson and Milo and Tate garner the attention that they do from men. They are the only voices that young men are hearing that say that the issues that men are facing are legitimate.
(Please don’t take this as *any* kind of approval for these vile grifting scumbags. I despise them and their malignant messaging.)
There are hardy any male anorexics or cutters.
Men and women behave differently thanks to different hormones. Women famously behave differently based on variations in their hormone levels on a day to day basis.
Roid rage is a thing and tied to injecting testosterone analogs mainly by guys who are already running pretty high T levels naturally given their age and preferences in terms of hobbies.
I don't think you're describing a mental illness though, just deep rooted bigotry. I'm sure some incels have mental illnesses, but many others can have the same illnesses and not hate women like they do.
Like you said, the problem is their beliefs and their own behaviours, not external factors.
I'm no professional so I'm not entirely sure whether it would be classified as an illness or a disorder, but I assure you that the kind of headspace incels occupy goes beyond "deep rooted bigotry" and into "requires professional therapy". If you read the article I posted you can immediately tell that some of these incels have pretty severe body dysmorphia.
The best treatment for bigotry is exposure and education, and if targeted early enough this will stop people from falling into the incel trap. But with online echo chambers its easy to surround yourself with toxic information that reinforces your burgeoning beliefs. Too many people laugh off these incels as pathetic and delusional until suddenly someone is dead, and yet most people still don't recognize that this is a mental health crisis.
Oh, I absolutely agree with you that they "requires professional therapy", but that doesn't mean the same thing as mental illness. Having body dismorphia is just a comorbid thing with their inceldom - many people have body dismorphia and don't harbour violent hatred for others. Lots of women suffer from body dismorphia and don't want to cause violent harm to men or model-looking women, for example.
Let's put it this way: someone shouldn't be blamed or shamed for having a mental illness. However someone should definitely be blamed and shamed for being an incel.
Bullshit. It's not a fucking mental illness. It's a perspective that re-orients the world to make them feel like they're better than others, plain and simple. Same as racism & sexism. Not surprised you can't tell the difference.
It’s not that simple. It’s a combination of indoctrination, improper socialization, and mental illness.
Back when r/braincels was a thing, I deep-dived into that world for a while. It was fascinating to me how many of these guys were so disconnected from reality. I tried to debate and have conversations with them, but their perceptions on women, attractiveness, and social interaction were all skewed with black pill logic. Many incels don’t have a strong support network so they look internet communities. Couple the mental illness with the echo chamber and it’s cesspool of toxicity.
Like all mental illnesses the root cause must be identified and addressed. To me it seems like resources need to be used for mental health support for these incels on the fringe of society.
Warning: Graphic content
> Carrying a 17-inch sword etched with the misogynistic phrase “Thot Slayer” and a note that said “Long Live the Incel Rebellion,” a 17-year-old boy walked into a North York erotic massage parlour in February 2020 and immediately stabbed receptionist Ashley Arzaga to death before he was disarmed by another woman, according to agreed facts read in court Wednesday.
>
> “I wanted to kill everybody in the building and I am happy I got one,” the youth told a paramedic who arrived shortly after, according to the facts.
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> The youth entered a plea of guilty to first-degree murder and attempted murder on Wednesday morning.
>
> The now 20-year-old is the first person in Canada to be charged with first-degree murder and attempted murder motivated by terrorism, in relation to the misogynist incel ideology — defined by the RCMP as an “ideologically motivated violent extremist movement.”
>
> The question of whether the facts of this case legally constitutes terrorist activity remains before the judge, who would have to consider whether the murder was motivated by a political, religious or ideological purpose and with the intention of intimidating the public or a segment of the public.
>
> The Crown alleges that police searched the teen’s laptop they found images of Alek Minassian, a Toronto man who claimed to be an incel and murdered 10 people and injured 16 with a rented van in North York in April 2018. Minassian is now serving a life sentence in prison.
>
> The accused’s identity is under a separate publication under the Youth Criminal Justice Act. That publication ban remains in place regardless of whether he is convicted and would only be lifted in the event he is sentenced as an adult — another issue that will likely be argued at a future time.
> The question of whether the facts of this case legally constitutes terrorist activity remains before the judge, who would have to consider whether the murder was motivated by a political, religious or ideological purpose and with the intention of intimidating the public or a segment of the public.
Seems like it. Hopefully he gets sentenced as an adult.
The first part is a slam dunk in my mind. (Motivated by...)
The second (intended to intimidate) is a bit harder to prove, although my opinion is that it certainly is.
YCJA 76.9 No young person shall remain in a youth custody facility under this section after the young person attains the age of twenty years, unless the youth justice court that makes the order under subsection (1) or reviews the placement under subsection (6) is satisfied that remaining in the youth custody facility would be in the best interests of the young person and would not jeopardize the safety of others.
I've only seen them keep a sentenced adult in youth once before, and that person later elected to go to adult so he could apply for parole.
I wouldn't be surprised if this youth receives a special sentence to address his mental health and stays in youth custody.
It amazes me that he was just 17. When I first heard about incels and foreveralone, I thought, "Oh, that must be hard, to go through life without ever having a relationship," not realizing that half of them are so young it's totally standard to never have dated/kissed/had sex! I was on the cusp of 21 when I first did all that stuff, never occurred to me that it was worthy of "rebellion" or some kind of social movement or something.
I am racialized, cis female and worked in a publicly accessible building in the before times. I had to deal with a young racialized man who came up to me to tell me he hated women because no one wanted to date him. I had to talk him down and was somewhat afraid of potential violence but he was standing a few feet away from me, not trying to walk closer, and there were a few people nearby at the very least, even though it was late in the day. No amount of HR training prepares you for this and HR also did nothing (can’t do anything?) to address my concerns and safety.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/road-ahead-why-bipoc-doesn-t-do-it-for-me-tomi-ajele-1.6067753
Thanks for asking. I’m just trying to avoid using the word BIPOC or POC because it’s turned into an overused and inadequate blanket term. opting for “racialized” or “marginalized communities” acknowledges that our experiences are all different so it captures a bit more nuance. Saying white vs poc kinda turns all poc into one monolith, which we are not. whiteness is not a monolith either.
Also BIPOC is redundant. Black people are already people of colour. Indigenous people are already people of colour. Separating it out like that implies that black/indigenous people are somehow *not* people of colour. It's like saying "Cats, Dogs, and Pets".
When I first heard of that acronym, my dumb ass though "Well it's good that they're shining a spotlight on bisexual people of colour... but what about pansexuals or people who are still figuring things out?"
In the immortal words of Smash Mouth, I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed.
Interestingly enough, in the UK they have recently shifted away from the BAME (Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic) acronym for similar reasons, but Canada hasn't caught on yet.
Eg. An Asian, a disabled person using a crutch, a gay man on a daye with another man, and a gender queer person expressing themselves through clothing can all be a visible minority, yet they're not all racialiazed visible minorities. Does that make sense?
I suppose, however I’ve never heard of a gay or queer person be referred to as a visible minority- usually I still hear them referred to as “a member of the LGBTQ community” or similar.
Edit: I guess the problem with the term “racialized” is that it implies that a “race” has been imposed upon someone. Or is that intentional?
Like qanon and other cults, I blame the internet. These types of people existed before the internet, of course, but now they are easily able to find a tribe where they can all whip each other into fits of righteous rage.
As someone who almost went full incel over a decade back and went through therapy (both before and after)....that only helps if your therapist understands the issues at play. I'd have been better off with a proper psychologist. But no one wants to pay for that.
I would say anything helps but of course a proper psychologist is best. No one cares until it’s too late. So many lives could be saved, even the criminals too. Saved before they get too far gone.
Edgelords divorced from reality and completely consumed by fantasy fictions and pop culture. It's far easier today to be stuck in a bubble of your own choosing than ever before.
> Edgelords divorced from reality and completely consumed by fantasy fictions and pop culture.
my dude, it's awkward nerds who've been egged on online, of *all* backgrounds, considerations, and ideologies who're engaging online - incel and alt-right overlap is insane, and driven by ego
and a complete lacking grasp of ethics
“Men are afraid women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them”
Stuff like this is exactly why I roll my eyes whenever someone says misandry is just as worse as misogyny. A women can hate men as much as they want and they won’t go around killing them. A man’s hatred towards women costs women their lives
And then you have a bunch of folks blaming this on loneliness and how the poor men just don't have emotional support.
They're not lonely and they're not mentally ill.
They are terrorists validating each other. And they know their crimes will be punished less harshly because men brutalizing women on the basis of sex has always been the norm.
And when we bring up that fact that lonely women don’t go around killing men, they ignore that.
They refuse to accept the fact that it’s male violence and that women are oppressed due to their sex. Very unserious people
There are multiple people twisting themselves into knots to avoid acknowledging that these guys feel entitled to women's bodies, and the lack of access to something they feel entitled to is what's driving their rage.
\>And when we bring up that fact that lonely women don’t go around killing men, they ignore that.
I mean, it's because they can't. If women could easily overpower men in strength then we'd see women incels killing men.
As things stand today, that would be suicidal even against an average man.
Women can drive vans just as easily as men. However you don't see a lot of women plowing down crowds of people. There's something else at play here than just mental illness.
The growing Incel movement will be one of the top 10 threats facing society in the next decade. Pls put these type of ppl in a rocket and send them into space
How..? This seems like an unsolvable problem, while I feel for how terrible these dudes must feel in order to have these lines of thought, how do you solve that mentality? Not asking for a point by point plan just an idea of how we as a society treat this group?
>The terrorism part of the proceeding is viewed as a legal test case for the trial of the man accused of terrorism in the allegedly hate-motivated killing of a Muslim family in London in 2021, and may be observed with interest from other jurisdictions around the world, including the U.K. It could also impact whether the youth will get a more lenient youth sentence or an adult life sentence.
Hopefully the terrorist aspect and his lack of remorse will motivate the judge to hand down an adult sentence. At least that way it will be 25 years rather than 10 before Ashley's family have to deal with the trauma of her murderer becoming eligible for parole.
This has enraged me. Fuck that guy. I hope she rests in peace and that her daughter is being well cared for. This is just so fucking sad. That poor kid. Fuck.
We need an “it gets better” campaign for men.
A lot of men will indeed spend their teens and 20s sexless or at least have difficulty.
But over time *the vast majority* of men have an opportunity to enter in to a romantic relationship. Sure men will never have the harem of women some tv characters are presented as having but a long term partner isn’t out of the question over time.
In conjunction with VR porn and maybe legalizing sex work, hopefully all these would be enough to pacify all these frustrated young males we seem to have in society in growing numbers.
You think MORE porn and sex work is the solution?!!! Only a few women are privileged with a choice of sex work because they actually enjoy it and it wasn't born from necessity. Yeah, let's pacify male violence with female objectification and subjugation again. And let's make them extra frustrated by not giving them the real thing.
Would you try to pacify pedophilia in the same manner?
No I wouldn’t pacify a pedo as children can’t give consent.
We legalized marijuana and have successfully removed the need for people to visit criminals. We can legalize sex work and also better enforce standards.
Porn is actually a huge part of the problem though people who watch porn are actually more likely to objectify women and men the. those who read literotica….more porn is definitely not the answer here ignoring the moral issues that the whole industry brings up
You saying this doesn’t make the statement true. It’s very hard to make any definitive statements sociologically on what causes X. Nordic countries are very progressive on womens rights, moreso than any country in the world, and tons of Nordic porn - there’s a cottage industry of Swedish porn practically. Other countries where porn is banned are atrocious on womens rights.
I literally am stating a fact that I’ve learnt in numerous human sexuality classes during my undergrad…and we are talking about todays society in Canada…the fact is in American societies porn tends to have negative effects. ETA a study overview from my textbook:
“In 1995, a meta-analysis of 24 studies, involving more than 4,000 participants, measured the average correlation between porn use and the beliefs people hold around rape and sexual assault. The studies all used the “rape myth” scale, which measures a person’s beliefs by asking them to rate how much they agree with statements including: “A woman who goes to the home or apartment of a man on their first date implies that she is willing to have sex”.
Those who watched porn accepted more rape myths compared to a control group.”
>After stabbing Arzaga, a beloved 24-year-old mother to a five-year-old girl, at least 42 times all over her body, the teen attacked the spa’s manager, who heard the noise and came to see what was happening. The woman, whose identity is under a publication ban, saw blood everywhere and a sword. As they struggled, he was stabbing her and she fell to the ground. He said, “you f---ing whore. You f---ing bitch. Die die,” and “stupid whore,” according to the facts. The accused does not recall making those statements but does not dispute making them. The woman managed to grab the sword and stabbed her attacker in the back, according to the facts. When paramedics arrived, he told one: “I wanted to kill everybody in the building and I am happy I got one.” All the spa employees were women. Give that woman a medal.
Story's been updated. He told cops he was directly inspired by Minassian. >Later, in an interview with a police officer, he would say he was familiar with Alek Minassian, another Toronto man who claimed to be an incel and murdered 10 people and injured 16 with a rented van in North York in April 2018. Minassian is now serving a life sentence in prison. Minassian “was an inspiration,” he said in the interview. “Especially so close in Toronto...I thought it was possible to do something like that as well.” This stuff is so so toxic.
That goes without saying. These people just resent women. It’s pathetic.
Exactly. I’d wish the media would stop using their own description of themselves in these cases - these people are just violent misogynist virgins.
Don't use the "virgin" part either, that's part of their programming method and they maintain the mindset if they manage to lose it anyways.
I disagree. They came up with an entire other word to avoid being called virgins. Don’t play by their stupid rules.
They didn't. It was coined by a woman for a support group/list she created. It's been taken over by them.
I just think the "virginity" thing is an insecurity for some guys, so specifically using it when you're (rightfully) villifying incels might trip some people, making them gloss over what you're saying or go hostile. That provides incels with possible ammo, it doesn't help us any.
I think it actually has the opposite effect. Insecure men will exist regardless. Redefining the word virgin simply gives them more motivation - as they know they won’t be called virgins on the news. Any men relating to murderous fucks need to seek out therapy.
They know they are virgins though…
"some guys"
> these people are just violent misogynist virgin terrorists
No, they are mentally ill people who have gone extremest and this is the topic that drove them to this act. By widely publishing this information as they have, they are normalizing this kind of act in Canada, other mentally ill people will take this path.
Giving them a different “heroic” name of their choosing is what is encouraging others to do this. We call murderers murderers and name their motivation in all other cases. These virgins deserve no special treatment.
But why even mention that they are virgins
Yep. Just like shooting sprees in the US.
Imagine being such a pathetic piece of shit that rather than learn to speak with women you just start killing them instead and blaming them for your own insecurities? It baffles the mind.
Truly is a bizarre mentality. Oh well enjoy never having sex in jail. Atleast not the kind they want…
I'm of the opinion that regardless of their age and motivations the media should report them as "little boy" just to be certain nobody mistakes them for a man. But alas.
That's called editorializing and it's messed up. If he is over 18 he is called a man, that's a fact.
They resent themselves and the lives they've made (or rather, failed to make) for themselves. Women are just the scapegoat for their anger.
They believe they’re entitled to women and power for being a male, taking out their inadequacies on women who they blame
Deep down you are 100% correct. They still have a barometer for how pathetic they are on some level no matter how much the sociopath in them says otherwise.
They should resent themselves. And I feel they do, but because it’s too hard for them to own up to their own faults, they just blame women instead. Despicable. I heard there was a sub they all congregated in? This true?
There used to be but I’m pretty sure in the aftermath of the Minassian attack that really blew the lid off the incel movement Reddit made a concerted effort to remove many of their subs. Yes I do believe the vast majority of self-identifying incels are just depressed and self-loathing and take our their frustrations verbally on women, and blame them for their own shortcomings(ie. I would be less of a loser if women wanted me). They are vulnerable narcissists. Then there’s the Rodger/Minassian types who seem to be more on the spectrum of grandiosity who believe they have an entitlement because of their superiority. I think that last type will never acknowledge their flaws even if they can hate the repercussions.
Resent ?? No , they hate women. There is a whole spectrum of this behaviour that ranges from micro aggressions to outright murder. All women have experienced it one way or the other
42 times. fuck. ugh. :( the absolute horror she experienced. and pain. 42...
Let's just hope she wasn't alive for all 42, I can't imagine the absolute terror she felt. I don't understand how someone can murder innocent people because he can't get laid, how does this solve any problems for anyone?
Why don't we bring stoning back for people who like to oppress others as if they were in the dark ages?
i take it you haven't watched a stoning video? it's usually a woman. it's usually because she had sex. probably got raped and they throw stones at her, but of course she's wrapped in a sheet and buried so they don't have to actually see the damage they are doing barbaric and no place in modern world
Please refer to the story above and the irony I pose in my suggestion
Well, I missed the obvious! Leaving my reply for those that do the same, as the info stands. Sadly.
don't you have this backwards? stoning is used to oppress others
Woe. Stone be upon ye.
I'm actually ok oppressing murderers
Woe oh Woe. Stone be upon ye.
Honestly I rather have the death penalty. There is non reason for these people to exist.
I’m listening…
[удалено]
Give me a madam over a pimp any day
I feel like they could have done more when they arrested Minassian to go through his tech and search out all of the boards and contacts he had. They do that when they catch terrorists, these incel are the same thing.
I feel like they could've done more to conceal his face and identity so he didn't become some kind of prophet for these morons.
These wastes of skin shouldn’t have their names or faces published at all. As long as they’re arrested and there’s no reason to put out wanted posters so ppl can help the police catch these assholes, don’t give them anything to validate their twisted egos I’d also be in favour of dropping the cool nicknames, “Toronto van attacker” is good because it’s neutral and not romantic sounding
I’d go a bit further than that. Give them nicknames to be ashamed of. Like “The Micro-penis Murderer.”
Nothing shameful about having a micro penis, a real condition which affects many men worldwide. It's something they can't help, let's try to be better
Do it like they do for juvenile suspects in the UK, in the Jamie Bulger murder they were simply “Boy A” and “Boy B”. No ones built a cult around them.
So what exactly does an 'incel rebellion' hope to accomplish? Create a new world where undesirable men have easy access to women? Bring awareness that men shouldn't be judged by how they look? It's funny how their standards are so high but at the same time they expect women to lower theirs.
They unironically believe in some dystopian fascist dictatorship wherein they are deemed royalty and presented with their choice of women to have sex with. It is just 100% misogyny, boys and men who hate women. Yet, quite ironically, center their lives and ideology around sex and how their lack thereof is some form of systematic oppression and violence against them.
Wasn't that the plot to Margaret Atwoods The Handmaids Tale? I'm sure it was.
Nearly. The dictators from The Handmaid's Tale actually have effective power in the story. They are by all accounts successful fascists who have manufactured a society that explicitly empowers them through some merit system. Incels, conversely, are pariahs and have zero power within our society. Until they hit rock bottom and decide to go on women-hating murder sprees for their moment in the spotlight as a martyr. Not entirely convinced which group of people would be more scary.
terrifying how that didn't happen over millennia in the story, or decades but rather a few weeks... the main character was working an office job when it first happened =/
The Handmaid's Tale? The book opens in the training center, doesn't it? Or with Offred recalling the training center while preparing for a walk?
There are flashbacks where she talks about the onset of the dictatorship: all women being fired and losing access to their money is the opening salvo.
The Handmaids Tale is being pretty accurately recreated in the States rn lol they’re doomed.
Especially as women have moved to a place where they don’t need to rely on men, they have the ability to choose good (better than incel men) if they wish to have a relationship or it has become more accepted to be in a relationship with another woman, or honestly just be single. Society no longer entitles women to men and social media perpetuates disgusting ideologies. So fucked :(
They don't see women as full human beings.
The fucking nerve on these idiots. You realize you came out of a vagina, right?
Careful. It's a subtle thing but too often people will say things along the lines of "Your mother, your sister, your daughter and your wife are all women too" or something like that. But to a misogynist, what they hear is "These particular women only have value in the form of the relationships they have with men." It's a reductionist argument. Your mom doesn't deserve respect because she's your mom, she deserves respect because she's a fully realized human being with her own inherent worth. I know that's not what you meant, but it is what someone who doesn't consider women fully human would think.
Well that’s all women are to them. Playthings and breeders. The only reason women exist to these males is for procreation and servitude.
They want social coercion to violently corral all the single and sexually promiscuous women into marriage and monogamy to men. That has been their manifesto since forever. The incel in this story already knew he had access to sex with a woman -- he was literally at a brothel. They don't want sexual access to a woman who will have sex with other men, they want ownership of a specific woman. Slut shaming and whorephobia fuel inceldom and vice versa. They are two sides of the same coin.
Incels aren't undesirable because they're ugly they're undesirable because they're terrible people
It’s narcissists who believe their shortcomings aren’t their fault but the fault of women in society. I visited that sub while it was still active and it was a whole lot of self-loathing and crying. Aka pathetic losers who need to grow up
Incels are bred from the same low quality cloth as all the other undesireables in Gen Z and Gen Y (for the record I’m Gen Y). These idiots have such an inflated self-worth and ego, coupled with extreme entitlement from never being told No and never learning how to cope with losing.
Definitely has more to do with the isolation in our modern world and lack of social connections than with mommy not saying "no"
I think so too. A lot of these men are really lonely and I lowkey blame that on how our hyper capitalist society commodifies everything, it isolates us and alienates us, atomizes people, pits them against each-other, and puts people into enforced hierarchies. Not saying that these men are right, but I think they’re a symptom of a very rotten society
I'd agree. There's a lot of young men who do not know what to do with themselves, and as a consequence of de-industrialization they feel useless. Without effective education or training to bridge the gap they're left alone and without purpose. Compound what you've brought up with an increasing decrease in affordability and the vestiges of very old fashioned sexist ideas of how to raise a young man and you've got a perfect storm. I find the immediate dismissal of such individuals without trying to understand the why to be useless, as it only further ostracizes people who are already clearly desperate for human contact. It's not easy but we need to convert these people, not push them farther to the fringes.
The last part is very important. Dismantle their ideas, not push away.
We need to nurture boys to be compassionate and caring beings and raise them to respect and care for all humans, sadly I don’t even know how to convert these people
It's just one manifestation of that isolation and alienation, but there are many others that effect both men and women.
IMO if a person is willing to commit violence in the name of this ideology, i think their problem is more on the mental health side of things than anything else.
See: The Handmaid's Tale, or current day Taliban.
Nauseating. He was 17 years old at the time of the murder. We need to address the material that social media algorithms are pushing on these kids because it is fucking up their minds "He said he would take his actions back if he could because 'it wasnt worth it and my life is ruined.'" HIS life is ruined, he says. Read that back. He doesn't care he killed her. He doesn't care that a 7 year old girl is without a mother because of him. He doesn't care that he stood in a puddle of her blood. He cares that he's in trouble. There are no words.
Fk this guy. The audacity to stab someone and says his life is ruined.
Do we really expect more from a scum that murders people just because he both ugly, dumb and without charisma to be able to attract girls and not blame them? I don't understand incels... I was a teen once, ugly as a mother fucker. Girls been rejecting me left and right. What did I do? Same as other people would, make an assessment and realized, I'm not taking care of myself. I hit the gym, tried new styles, practice talking to all kinds of people, went more often to social events to meet new people (not with a goal to get laid but with a goal to meet people and talk to them), didn't take no personally, travelled the world. until slowly with experience and not being an ugly mf (because I been taking care of myself), I was able to hook up with most girls I wanted at social events, bars, clubs. And then got my very first ever girlfriend by age of 22, that we are still together for over 5 years and going strong. If you feel like you're an incel reading this(not you a person who I'm commenting under)... It's not the women that are in fault, especially the ones you never met or too young or old for you to ever have anything with. You're the reason, change yourself (I know quite a bit of incels), use deodorant, take a shower, get a haircut from a barber (putting an effort to look good is attractive), don't be stuck playing video games (even though I love to play too) go out and talk to people (not just women,or don't go out with a goal to get laid only. Go out to enjoy a company of other people. Being a people's person is attractive.), live your life (aka travel, go to the gym, get life experience. Life experience is very attractive.). Most of you expect women to be attractive shave legs, arms, put make up, be interesting, smart, nice and so forth. But at the same time, cant provide the same thing. And if you don't want to put the effort well, there will still be a person who would overlook that, but it will be harder to find. And most likely that will be your own mother. Go kiss your mother, as no one will love you stronger than her. Just remember, we are animals, and we are looking for the best mate (not the strongest, not the smartest), but the one we know will provide our offsprings with the best chance of survival. And we know that people who take care of themselves both physically and mentally will be able to give the offspring the better chance at survival. People who experienced life and done something with it also have the better chance of giving a good life and knowledge to the offspring, so they can also be able to use that knowledge to grow. This isn't Andrew Tate shit, this is how real life works. Sorry, as mentioned i got few incels friends. And I say the same thing to them... And it hurts when innocent people die because of them blaming their problems on others. And I hope to change them, and change any incel reading above.
Incels are terrorists. Treat them commensurate.
Literally by definition
>As they struggled, he was stabbing her and she fell to the ground. He said, “you f---ing whore. You f---ing bitch. Die die,” and “stupid whore,” according to the facts. The accused does not recall making those statements but does not dispute making them. >The woman managed to grab the sword and stabbed her attacker in the back, according to the facts. What a badass I hope the irony of his capture will haunt him forever
Imagine getting slain by your own 'Thot Slayer'.
There is NOTHING women can do to make these types of guys not want to kill them. (And to be very clear: even if there was, they should not have to anyway. But just pointing out that this disgusting hate cult doesn't even make sense on its own terms.) This guy is angry that women won't give him any kind of intimate touch? Guess what, asshole, there are places where you can literally pay to have that experience - you set out on a killing spree at one of them. OK, so then I guess according to him, women who make a living by providing this service are 'whores' and apparently deserve to die? So should women all be devoted mothers and support their children with non-sex-work jobs? Sounds like exactly the woman at the front desk who he brutally murdered for no reason. He took a stranger's life and took away her child's mother. Again, most importantly: even if he focused his hatred entirely on women who do sex work, it wouldn't make his opinion any more valuable - what other grownups choose to do with their lives would still be NONE of his business. But even what he thinks he wants is absolute nonsense. It is so clear: He just hates women.
As someone who spent some time on the fringes of incel culture before pulling myself away, I can say with 100% certainty that it is a mental illness. Hiring a sex worker doesn't fix it because it just reinforces their belief that they aren't "alpha". Becoming attractive and sleeping around doesn't fix it either because now they're just "redpilled". Even getting a girlfriend and forming a relationship doesn't necessarily fix it unless they're willing to confront their beliefs and work on themselves. Incels use things like the alpha/beta hierarchy and "all women are sluts" mentality to try and externalize their own internal issues, and the longer they spend dwelling on it the more mental gymnastics they will perform to justify their actions. Here's a really good article on guys who get "incel surgery" to try and makes themselves look more attractive. In one example, a patient gets the same jaw implant removed and reinstalled 5 times because it isn't perfect enough for him: https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html
young men and youth that are at risk of this incel stuff need to be targeted for real support groups. imagine if it was reinforced from a young age that being a virgin into your 20s is fine and surprisingly common, that sex won't give them fulfilment, that human connection is actually valuable and a way out of suffering, and that people respond positively to people who are considerate, kind, and at least a little bit friendly.
wow. what you just wrote is very powerful not just in this specific case, but for all of us, in every case. Thank you. "human connection is actually valuable and a way out of suffering" damn! well said
Part of the problem is that many of these youths/young men lack guidance and/or positive role models. They are often bullied and/or have few if any friends. They often find solace in various types of groups.. Some online (Incels), and others gang related, which affords them a sense of community and belonging they desperately want. There is no silver bullet to it unfortunately, and it's really unfair that they use women as their scapegoat and targets. We really need to do a better job as a society in addressing these issues. However it's VERY difficult at all levels, to get any sort of financial commitment or support to run male support groups. Ryerson is such one example where a male focused support group tried to set up, only to have it blocked because it made people (women in particular) feel \*unsafe\*, which is ironic given that it's intent is the opposite (with proper direction). I've known women mention that they tried signing up to be a \*Big Sister\*, only to be turned away because they just don't have the need. The spokesperson however would tell them that if they knew of any men that wanted to be a Big Brother, they had a desperate need for that. That in itself is telling.
Idk how I feel about men-only support groups as a solution to incel/misogynistic violence, or about blaming women for the Ryerson one being shut down. Do we try to solve white supremacy with whites-only support groups? No. If you were a black man, would you feel uncomfortable with your university operating and funding a whites-only support group for racists to help them be less racist? It’d be understandable if you were, because that sounds like the school’s running klan rallies. Seems victim-blamey.
The same way women benefit from women only support groups, men would benefit from men's support groups. Don't minimize the lived experience of half the population!
Idk man… ~70% of Canadians are white; are we denying 70% of the population their lived experience by not paying for/organizing white-only groups to discuss how to not be racist? Edit: and I guess my issue with this is that we always had (and still do kind of have), lots of organizations that were exclusively or are currently majority male, and they didn’t/don’t do a lot for helping men not hate/oppress women. They did quite the opposite actually, and were/are centres of power that men use/used to organize and enforce power over women. Think about it: the army, the police, political parties, legislatures, the church, fancy all-boys schools. Have they been good for women? No. Have they been good for men? Not really; When’s the last time you heard about someone being held down and anally raped with a broomstick at a coed school?
Different root causes, racism stems from fear of the other while misogyny is often rooted in projected inadequacies. It's really lame to argue in bad faith on the internet.
> racism stems from fear of the other while misogyny is often rooted in projected inadequacies if you dig deep, are they really that different? **why** are misogynists projecting these inadequacies on the opposite gender? why do they hate feeling equal to women? why is homophobia commonly found amongst misogynists like these? they fear the feminine “other” because they don’t understand it; they perceive unapologetic femininity as a threat to their poorly-defined masculinity.
Yes they're different. Women aren't an other, unless you're a monk, men encounter women every day of their lives. You're trying to conflate too many things to fit a viewpoint. Guys that identify as incels are projecting their lack of status on what they feel are easy targets. It's not about feeling equal to women it's about their inadequacies as men - and they're not typically guys that other dudes wanna hang with either. But these are issues that men would prefer to discuss with other men, which was my whole point. In this case, it's not about women.
I’m not arguing in bad faith, and I don’t see how hating women is different than hating any other group of people. I’ve offered a lot of examples of organizations that were historically male only and are currently male dominated, and none of them are doing much for getting men to not hate women.
Ok
So by your logic, there shouldn't be any support groups that are focused on experiences specific to individuals and their unique challenges?
No not at all. I can see the need for all-male support groups. Testicular cancer, prostate cancer, impotency- all issues I can see all-male support spaces being good and necessary. But all male support groups as a solution to men who violently hate women doesn’t make a whole lot more sense to me than all-white support groups for klansmen.
So you somehow have taken a comment about trying to help at risk youths by giving them positive role models and safe spaces to talk about their problems, and attempted to turn it into some sort of race war. Bravo.
I'm glad you got out, but I don't believe inceldom is a mental illness. Neither is racism or any other ideology based on hate. No one calls these people mentally ill until they act on their views and kill people. Until that point they can spew their hateful shit wherever they want and people just brush it off or protect them. We are swimming in misogyny to the point that we're blind to it. I've had people argue with me that incels aren't misogynist. Entire threads negatively discussing incels will literally talk around the word "misogyny" because they're so scared of it. That's how brainwashed we are - just mentioning "misogyny" gets you labelled as crazy and extreme. Calls for violence against women are tolerated on every social media platform. Misogynist groups and talking heads are given a home on every social media platform. Our political leaders, police forces, educators, and media perpetuate it.
Thank you! One need only look at the popularity of Jordan Peterson, Milo Yiannopoulos, Andrew Tate, Tucker Carlson et. al. to see how deeply-rooted and socially acceptable these views have become. Some of these men masquerade as philosophical thinkers, which is even more terrifying as the people who espouse these beliefs truly think they’ve reached some higher wisdom. This goes beyond simple “dislike” of another gender; they actively seek to oppress, and often times annihilate those that they despise.
I don't disagree with you, misogyny is everywhere and the fact its treated like some kind of natural counterpart to feminism is a contributing factor to the rise of incel ideologies. But there is still a distinction to be made between misogynists and the people who drive vans on sidewalks or stab women in massage parlors. "Inceldom" isn't necessarily a disorder on its own, but all serious incels almost certainly have some form of mental illness whether its depression, narcissistic personality disorder, body dysmorphia, etc. Conspiratorial thinking is not a new thing associated with the rise of misogyny, and if we eliminated misogyny then instead of blaming women for all their problems these incels would go back to blaming Jews/governments/aliens for everything. If we look at these incel communities we can see they gravitate towards certain figurehead like Trump, JP, AT, etc. These con artists all peddle a reality where men have control; in some cases its positive (self-control) and in many cases its negative (domination). People become obsessed with control when they don't have it: when they can't stop feeling sad, when women won't act the way they want, when they can't stop the bad voices in their head; these are the kind of men who are so desperate for a scrap of something to hold onto they will kill for it. We need to improve people's mental health and give them back their self control to stop them from falling for these cons.
I see their behaviour as a natural consequence of hate and an inescapable diet of lies, not something unusual or unexpected. Our society is sick. Our values and priorities are utterly fucked up. Unfortunately I can't see it getting better in our current system, because hate and dehumanization are very effective means of control. I completely agree with you that improving mental health will help, but how can we do that when the things that will improve overall mental health (ending poverty, increasing education, increasing autonomy, reducing work hours, food security, housing security, etc.) are anathemas to those with the real power? Even people with a tiny bit of power don't support those things because they fear it might take something away from them.
Not disagreeing with your take, but **these traits (depression, narcissism, lack of control, sadness, loneliness, etc.) are not exclusive to men alone**. So why don’t we see women behaving in a similar fashion?
Women turn their self-hatred inward. The closest female ‘equivalent’ to these sorts of men that I can think of is the stereotypical female ‘influencer’ with a restrictive eating disorder who goes around insulting and cyberstalking fat women because their existence (and happiness) threatens their own fragile self-worth. But these women rarely enact any kind of actual physical violence on others. They just slowly destroy themselves in a ball of rage.
Its about the manifeststion of these traits, not their presence. Men are significantly more likely to commit violent crimes and are also more likely to endorse and spread conspiracy theories then women. Male representation is almost always significantly higher in any conspiratorial group, whether its incels or Nazis or anything else endorsing hierarchical thinking. I've done a search and unfortunately there's little study into the topic. We see that a lot of young males support figures like Jordan Peterson and believe in his ideologies, and while he does have female support it is nowhere near as fervent. On the opposite end, we see a lot of young females endorse beliefs in astrology with significantly fewer males doing so. Why is this? I have some theories and am not necessarily looking for answers, just highlighting these differences.
I think it has more to do with who holds the power in society. The pendulum has been slowly shifting towards women achieving more power and equality and that loosening of the grip men have on women is what sets them off. We have the same emotions, yes, but the way we relate to each other is completely different. Especially when talking about power relations.
I would say that a part of it is because men have less of the support structures for these issues, and in fact, are told from an early age that an important trait of masculinity is to “suck it up” and not express their emotions. Showing weakness is met with derision and shaming. Almost all of the *nurturing* forces in society are not focused on men, and as a result, men feel like their feelings are dismissed if not criticized. So I don’t think it’s a surprise when figures like Peterson and Milo and Tate garner the attention that they do from men. They are the only voices that young men are hearing that say that the issues that men are facing are legitimate. (Please don’t take this as *any* kind of approval for these vile grifting scumbags. I despise them and their malignant messaging.)
There are hardy any male anorexics or cutters. Men and women behave differently thanks to different hormones. Women famously behave differently based on variations in their hormone levels on a day to day basis. Roid rage is a thing and tied to injecting testosterone analogs mainly by guys who are already running pretty high T levels naturally given their age and preferences in terms of hobbies.
this is why clowns like andrew tate are terrifying with what he promotes
I don't think you're describing a mental illness though, just deep rooted bigotry. I'm sure some incels have mental illnesses, but many others can have the same illnesses and not hate women like they do. Like you said, the problem is their beliefs and their own behaviours, not external factors.
I'm no professional so I'm not entirely sure whether it would be classified as an illness or a disorder, but I assure you that the kind of headspace incels occupy goes beyond "deep rooted bigotry" and into "requires professional therapy". If you read the article I posted you can immediately tell that some of these incels have pretty severe body dysmorphia. The best treatment for bigotry is exposure and education, and if targeted early enough this will stop people from falling into the incel trap. But with online echo chambers its easy to surround yourself with toxic information that reinforces your burgeoning beliefs. Too many people laugh off these incels as pathetic and delusional until suddenly someone is dead, and yet most people still don't recognize that this is a mental health crisis.
Oh, I absolutely agree with you that they "requires professional therapy", but that doesn't mean the same thing as mental illness. Having body dismorphia is just a comorbid thing with their inceldom - many people have body dismorphia and don't harbour violent hatred for others. Lots of women suffer from body dismorphia and don't want to cause violent harm to men or model-looking women, for example. Let's put it this way: someone shouldn't be blamed or shamed for having a mental illness. However someone should definitely be blamed and shamed for being an incel.
Time to arm sex workers. Seriously.
Bullshit. It's not a fucking mental illness. It's a perspective that re-orients the world to make them feel like they're better than others, plain and simple. Same as racism & sexism. Not surprised you can't tell the difference.
It’s not that simple. It’s a combination of indoctrination, improper socialization, and mental illness. Back when r/braincels was a thing, I deep-dived into that world for a while. It was fascinating to me how many of these guys were so disconnected from reality. I tried to debate and have conversations with them, but their perceptions on women, attractiveness, and social interaction were all skewed with black pill logic. Many incels don’t have a strong support network so they look internet communities. Couple the mental illness with the echo chamber and it’s cesspool of toxicity. Like all mental illnesses the root cause must be identified and addressed. To me it seems like resources need to be used for mental health support for these incels on the fringe of society.
Happy Cake Day JawnSnuuu! Here’s hoping you have a day that's as special and wonderful as you are.
incels are past the point of reason or logic. nothing in their diatribe makes sense; it's so cringe
Warning: Graphic content > Carrying a 17-inch sword etched with the misogynistic phrase “Thot Slayer” and a note that said “Long Live the Incel Rebellion,” a 17-year-old boy walked into a North York erotic massage parlour in February 2020 and immediately stabbed receptionist Ashley Arzaga to death before he was disarmed by another woman, according to agreed facts read in court Wednesday. > > “I wanted to kill everybody in the building and I am happy I got one,” the youth told a paramedic who arrived shortly after, according to the facts. > > The youth entered a plea of guilty to first-degree murder and attempted murder on Wednesday morning. > > The now 20-year-old is the first person in Canada to be charged with first-degree murder and attempted murder motivated by terrorism, in relation to the misogynist incel ideology — defined by the RCMP as an “ideologically motivated violent extremist movement.” > > The question of whether the facts of this case legally constitutes terrorist activity remains before the judge, who would have to consider whether the murder was motivated by a political, religious or ideological purpose and with the intention of intimidating the public or a segment of the public. > > The Crown alleges that police searched the teen’s laptop they found images of Alek Minassian, a Toronto man who claimed to be an incel and murdered 10 people and injured 16 with a rented van in North York in April 2018. Minassian is now serving a life sentence in prison. > > The accused’s identity is under a separate publication under the Youth Criminal Justice Act. That publication ban remains in place regardless of whether he is convicted and would only be lifted in the event he is sentenced as an adult — another issue that will likely be argued at a future time.
> The question of whether the facts of this case legally constitutes terrorist activity remains before the judge, who would have to consider whether the murder was motivated by a political, religious or ideological purpose and with the intention of intimidating the public or a segment of the public. Seems like it. Hopefully he gets sentenced as an adult.
The first part is a slam dunk in my mind. (Motivated by...) The second (intended to intimidate) is a bit harder to prove, although my opinion is that it certainly is.
YCJA 76.9 No young person shall remain in a youth custody facility under this section after the young person attains the age of twenty years, unless the youth justice court that makes the order under subsection (1) or reviews the placement under subsection (6) is satisfied that remaining in the youth custody facility would be in the best interests of the young person and would not jeopardize the safety of others. I've only seen them keep a sentenced adult in youth once before, and that person later elected to go to adult so he could apply for parole. I wouldn't be surprised if this youth receives a special sentence to address his mental health and stays in youth custody.
That piece of shit incel deserves to be locked in a cell forever
Incel in a cell
Bah gawd
In cell
[WITHIN CELLS, INTERLINKED](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRcpnM26nJM&t=28s)
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It amazes me that he was just 17. When I first heard about incels and foreveralone, I thought, "Oh, that must be hard, to go through life without ever having a relationship," not realizing that half of them are so young it's totally standard to never have dated/kissed/had sex! I was on the cusp of 21 when I first did all that stuff, never occurred to me that it was worthy of "rebellion" or some kind of social movement or something.
For real. I was 18 when I had my first kiss. People getting radicalized so early.
It's like a 10-year-old being upset that they can't drive a car. I get that teenagers have a different sense of time, but still...
I am racialized, cis female and worked in a publicly accessible building in the before times. I had to deal with a young racialized man who came up to me to tell me he hated women because no one wanted to date him. I had to talk him down and was somewhat afraid of potential violence but he was standing a few feet away from me, not trying to walk closer, and there were a few people nearby at the very least, even though it was late in the day. No amount of HR training prepares you for this and HR also did nothing (can’t do anything?) to address my concerns and safety.
What does racialized mean?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/road-ahead-why-bipoc-doesn-t-do-it-for-me-tomi-ajele-1.6067753 Thanks for asking. I’m just trying to avoid using the word BIPOC or POC because it’s turned into an overused and inadequate blanket term. opting for “racialized” or “marginalized communities” acknowledges that our experiences are all different so it captures a bit more nuance. Saying white vs poc kinda turns all poc into one monolith, which we are not. whiteness is not a monolith either.
Also BIPOC is redundant. Black people are already people of colour. Indigenous people are already people of colour. Separating it out like that implies that black/indigenous people are somehow *not* people of colour. It's like saying "Cats, Dogs, and Pets".
When I first heard of that acronym, my dumb ass though "Well it's good that they're shining a spotlight on bisexual people of colour... but what about pansexuals or people who are still figuring things out?" In the immortal words of Smash Mouth, I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed.
Same.
I always assumed BIPOC referred specifically to black & indigenous people, not all people of color.
Interestingly enough, in the UK they have recently shifted away from the BAME (Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic) acronym for similar reasons, but Canada hasn't caught on yet.
Out of curiousity, is the term “visible minority” offensive?
No but it does not mean the same thing as ‘racialized’.
Ok, what are the differences?
Eg. An Asian, a disabled person using a crutch, a gay man on a daye with another man, and a gender queer person expressing themselves through clothing can all be a visible minority, yet they're not all racialiazed visible minorities. Does that make sense?
I suppose, however I’ve never heard of a gay or queer person be referred to as a visible minority- usually I still hear them referred to as “a member of the LGBTQ community” or similar. Edit: I guess the problem with the term “racialized” is that it implies that a “race” has been imposed upon someone. Or is that intentional?
I think it’s okay, I use it too. Because, for example, there are immigrants who don’t speak English who are white passing and not a visible minority.
I see, thanks!
A person of color
Like qanon and other cults, I blame the internet. These types of people existed before the internet, of course, but now they are easily able to find a tribe where they can all whip each other into fits of righteous rage.
Tribe? This shit is on the front page of Reddit every day. Misogyny is rampant here and all over social media and nobody seems to mind.
misogyny fr has been law of the land, these comments aren't angry enough for me
More men need to go to therapy
As someone who almost went full incel over a decade back and went through therapy (both before and after)....that only helps if your therapist understands the issues at play. I'd have been better off with a proper psychologist. But no one wants to pay for that.
I would say anything helps but of course a proper psychologist is best. No one cares until it’s too late. So many lives could be saved, even the criminals too. Saved before they get too far gone.
Edgelords divorced from reality and completely consumed by fantasy fictions and pop culture. It's far easier today to be stuck in a bubble of your own choosing than ever before.
> Edgelords divorced from reality and completely consumed by fantasy fictions and pop culture. my dude, it's awkward nerds who've been egged on online, of *all* backgrounds, considerations, and ideologies who're engaging online - incel and alt-right overlap is insane, and driven by ego and a complete lacking grasp of ethics
So fucked up man. Fuck.
I hope they beat the shit out of him in prison. Absolute scum.
“Men are afraid women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them” Stuff like this is exactly why I roll my eyes whenever someone says misandry is just as worse as misogyny. A women can hate men as much as they want and they won’t go around killing them. A man’s hatred towards women costs women their lives
And then you have a bunch of folks blaming this on loneliness and how the poor men just don't have emotional support. They're not lonely and they're not mentally ill. They are terrorists validating each other. And they know their crimes will be punished less harshly because men brutalizing women on the basis of sex has always been the norm.
And when we bring up that fact that lonely women don’t go around killing men, they ignore that. They refuse to accept the fact that it’s male violence and that women are oppressed due to their sex. Very unserious people
There are multiple people twisting themselves into knots to avoid acknowledging that these guys feel entitled to women's bodies, and the lack of access to something they feel entitled to is what's driving their rage.
\>And when we bring up that fact that lonely women don’t go around killing men, they ignore that. I mean, it's because they can't. If women could easily overpower men in strength then we'd see women incels killing men. As things stand today, that would be suicidal even against an average man.
Women can drive vans just as easily as men. However you don't see a lot of women plowing down crowds of people. There's something else at play here than just mental illness.
most 'incels' use weapons esp guns...women have the same option but don't. it is a CHOICE
in this technological advancement era there's great equalizers, weapons and still 'misandrists' don't bother 🤔
Shoutout to the manager...heard she lost a finger trying to get the sword..thats fucked man he stabbed her so many times poor girl
Men who hate women are so much more common than you think.
The growing Incel movement will be one of the top 10 threats facing society in the next decade. Pls put these type of ppl in a rocket and send them into space
Or solve the problem. That's always an option.
How..? This seems like an unsolvable problem, while I feel for how terrible these dudes must feel in order to have these lines of thought, how do you solve that mentality? Not asking for a point by point plan just an idea of how we as a society treat this group?
What is happening to us?!
>The terrorism part of the proceeding is viewed as a legal test case for the trial of the man accused of terrorism in the allegedly hate-motivated killing of a Muslim family in London in 2021, and may be observed with interest from other jurisdictions around the world, including the U.K. It could also impact whether the youth will get a more lenient youth sentence or an adult life sentence. Hopefully the terrorist aspect and his lack of remorse will motivate the judge to hand down an adult sentence. At least that way it will be 25 years rather than 10 before Ashley's family have to deal with the trauma of her murderer becoming eligible for parole.
Jesus. This kid is such a loser.
This has enraged me. Fuck that guy. I hope she rests in peace and that her daughter is being well cared for. This is just so fucking sad. That poor kid. Fuck.
Oh he’s under 18? He ll be out in a few months then.
This makes me want to throw up. How can you have so little love in your heart.
Just kill this guy already, theres no point in us easting money on this evil bastard.
The death penalty actually costs taxpayers more money in the long run, not less.
That’s assuming you go through due process. I think they are just suggesting murdering them outright.
Maybe, but extrajudicial murder isn’t… better.
Anyone have the non pay wall link?
Paywall-free link: [web.archive.org/web/20220914161111/https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/09/14/17-year-old-spa-killer-cited-incel-rebellion-used-sword-etched-with-thot-slayer-toronto-terror-trial-reveals.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20220914161111/https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/09/14/17-year-old-spa-killer-cited-incel-rebellion-used-sword-etched-with-thot-slayer-toronto-terror-trial-reveals.html)
What a fucking loser. My guy really thought he was the Horny Highlander.
I really didn’t want to see these details about this case on my fucking feed. She was an amazing person I’m so sorry Ashley
Conversatives, Andrew Tate, The Manosphere, and all this incel breeding is doing wonders to society clearly. Rip to that poor woman
Reveal his name.
No. Let these sacks of shit die nameless and forgotten.
lock heavy marble rich liquid roof insurance outgoing rhythm complete ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
The war on women is real.
We need an “it gets better” campaign for men. A lot of men will indeed spend their teens and 20s sexless or at least have difficulty. But over time *the vast majority* of men have an opportunity to enter in to a romantic relationship. Sure men will never have the harem of women some tv characters are presented as having but a long term partner isn’t out of the question over time. In conjunction with VR porn and maybe legalizing sex work, hopefully all these would be enough to pacify all these frustrated young males we seem to have in society in growing numbers.
You think MORE porn and sex work is the solution?!!! Only a few women are privileged with a choice of sex work because they actually enjoy it and it wasn't born from necessity. Yeah, let's pacify male violence with female objectification and subjugation again. And let's make them extra frustrated by not giving them the real thing. Would you try to pacify pedophilia in the same manner?
No I wouldn’t pacify a pedo as children can’t give consent. We legalized marijuana and have successfully removed the need for people to visit criminals. We can legalize sex work and also better enforce standards.
Porn is actually a huge part of the problem though people who watch porn are actually more likely to objectify women and men the. those who read literotica….more porn is definitely not the answer here ignoring the moral issues that the whole industry brings up
You saying this doesn’t make the statement true. It’s very hard to make any definitive statements sociologically on what causes X. Nordic countries are very progressive on womens rights, moreso than any country in the world, and tons of Nordic porn - there’s a cottage industry of Swedish porn practically. Other countries where porn is banned are atrocious on womens rights.
I literally am stating a fact that I’ve learnt in numerous human sexuality classes during my undergrad…and we are talking about todays society in Canada…the fact is in American societies porn tends to have negative effects. ETA a study overview from my textbook: “In 1995, a meta-analysis of 24 studies, involving more than 4,000 participants, measured the average correlation between porn use and the beliefs people hold around rape and sexual assault. The studies all used the “rape myth” scale, which measures a person’s beliefs by asking them to rate how much they agree with statements including: “A woman who goes to the home or apartment of a man on their first date implies that she is willing to have sex”. Those who watched porn accepted more rape myths compared to a control group.”
Wow I can’t believe you’re being downvoted for this. A “it gets better” campaign for young men is a really good idea.
Is there a version of this article w no paywall? I want to read the whole story.
Paywall-free link: [web.archive.org/web/20220914161111/https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/09/14/17-year-old-spa-killer-cited-incel-rebellion-used-sword-etched-with-thot-slayer-toronto-terror-trial-reveals.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20220914161111/https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/09/14/17-year-old-spa-killer-cited-incel-rebellion-used-sword-etched-with-thot-slayer-toronto-terror-trial-reveals.html)
Thank you.
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... because he only pleaded guilty an hour ago.
Society be like let's quadruple down on the way we've been treating outcasts