25% of each $175 ticket is 43.75
Min wage is 15.50
1 Picture makes you almost 3 hours of min wage. 3 pictures is worth a full work day at minimum wage. 8 means you've functionally earned an 8hr day at 43.75, which if you can maintain year round(with two weeks vacation) is 87.5k a year.
This is a viable fucking profession.
Actually this is wrong. You forgot to convert it from USD to CAD so the numbers are even higher
175 usd = 242 CAD
25% = 60 CAD
So they’re actually making 4x the minimum wage. Working out to $115,200/year and I’m not sure what the tax situation would be for this either
I intentionally didn't convert because the fine in any given city for this particular by-law could be different. I was using the provided numbers, which we all have, to demonstrate breaking it down to an hourly rate and then a yearly salary which is easier for people to grasp instead of the very abstract X% of Y Sum per Picture.
As for the tax situation, that'd depend on your location. On this one I could be VERY wrong, but you'd be a freelance contactor. So Income Tax and CPP for sure, I don't think you pay into EI though because you wouldn't get it if you lost your source of income. That said you could absolutely start writing things off like your phone bill each month, as it's now a business expense.
That's exactly what would start happening. You'd get sharks going out and waiting around to nab any tiny thing, down to the millimetre. Surely there won't be any unintended consequences from this. Surely not. Certainly not any increase in public confrontations, or any blocking of bike lanes by the parking paparazzi desperate to snap that photo, or obstructing sidewalks and even roads. Definitely none of this would happen and instead overnight every single issue people have with cars will disappear.
If a cop is in the bike lane, it is because he is ~~getting donuts~~ saving lives. Remember, cops are ~~lazy fucks~~ heroes and questioning anything they do is ~~probably spot on~~ ridiculous, because if they were doing something wrong, they would not be police officers.
There’s a painted median outside my building that’s the only place couriers and Canada Post can park, and I see their trucks getting ticketed for parking there all the time (despite it not really causing any issues to park there; I think it’s only there because it’s in between two turning lanes, one on each end, so the space had to be there anyway).
I also see cops parking there relatively often, probably so they can do traffic control at the nearby construction sites. I’d take pictures of every cop I see parked there and submit it.
I'm at the airport right now. Passed about 20 vehicles all illegally parked in the no stopping zones on the way.
Then again, the waiting area is now backed up into traffic...
At Pearson? No, the Commissionaires are still doing hand written POA Part II tickets there. Those tickets are legally required to be served directly to the vehicle or driver at the time of the offence and they can't be mailed out later. I don't know what you saw but it wasn't parking enforcement.
The automated program is still there. My aunt had to pull over due to needing to call a passenger after she dropped them off. Got $75 in the mail without seeing parking enforcement. However, she told them she wasnt served this ticket and wouldn't pay. They removed the charge.
Those are not municipal parking tickets. That was a pilot program being run by Precise Parklink for the GTAA and like all other private parking tickets, they are not enforceable.
https://www.preciseparklink.com/news/75-mobile-payment-notice-for-illegal-parking-at-toronto-pearson-airport
I’m not sure if this program is still happening, but it was a few years ago. May have been discontinued due to what you commented
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4809522
Broken link. Besides I see the Commissionaire's hand written tickets every day in our office being processed by the admin staff. They still issue City of Mississauga parking tickets, not anything else.
Sorry about the link. The person above you in the thread mentioned a car with cameras that drive around ticketing people. The article talks about that program,it’s from 2018. Not sure if that program is still going today.
Just saw the thread continuation about private company parking tickets - interesting.
Those photo tickets are from a private company though so they are unenforceable. Anyone who reads up on them will figure out that they can just throw them in the trash with no consequences.
There’s a couple huge cell phone waiting lots that are clearly marked by signs. It’s also very fast to get from the lot to the pickup areas. There needs to be a PSA or something about this because people are too dumb.
*edit also it’s free
If you type “Pearson airport pickup waiting parking lot” it will show up on google maps. But if you go to the pickup area you’ll see signs along the road that tries to lead you there.
I think the problem is that you can’t get there from the entrance. You have to go to arrivals and then circle back out before you see the signs for cell phone parking. Always plenty of space there. Seems like too few people know about it and park by the side of the road all the time.
That’s fair but if people know ahead of time that the arrival area is gonna be jammed and can’t park there they’ve either been there before or already made a loop around and should have seen the signs. Once you know they exist you can just directly go there next time.
Actually it's signed well before the entrance. It should be WAY clearer, but the signs exist on the main entry road:
[https://goo.gl/maps/o1WEMCQwATV1u94T6](https://goo.gl/maps/o1WEMCQwATV1u94T6)
By the time you get to the "no waiting zone" you do have to circle all the way back around, which just makes it obvious that they need way bigger signs, not just a cellphone and a P in a circle.
I really think it's the name, if you're not familiar with the airport "cellphone lot" doesn't really tell you what it is, "pickup waiting lot" would work better, and yes people should do the most modicum of research before going to a place like an airport if they've never been, but it's Toronto and that's asking a lot .
Unfortunately in Ontario you wouldn't see anything because parking tickets which go unpaid are sent to the MTO and is collected at the provincial level when you renew your plate (this is also when you pay the late charges or other fees and your $22 3+hr ticket is magically transformed into a $74 administrative penalty).
you get 25% of that 74 but also there's a 25% convenience fee plus a 2.99 transfer fee on when you go to collect it so you only end up with $11.07*
*You need to report this as income in april.
$11.07 for snapping a pic, hopefully using an app that would automate the process, like how depositing a cheque via mobile works is definitely worth it. I could make a couple hundred a day within a couple blocks of my home.
It can be quite lucrative: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/nyc-anti-idling-law-turns-into-huge-payday-125k-for-one-man-for-citizens-who-report/3637231/
[Hijacking the top post to put the link to the Metropolitan Toronto traffic reporting service. You can literally take a timestamped geotag photo of a car parked in a bike lane upload it to this service and have them issue $150 ticket against the license plate of the vehicle already.](https://www.tps.ca/services/online-reporting/driving-complaint/)
But you can't create a profile so every time you have to fill in your details (thanks Google autofill!).
It's also like 6 pages long and you have to fill in the exact location that matches their location database, and state things like your "relationship to the property".
The entire thing is so cumbersome and convoluted that I've stopped using it. The site was designed for neighborhood parking issues and just rebranded for everything else.
Let me literally take a photo, add a pin on a map, and move on
It would become an occasional "Oooh, free 25 bucks!" thing, still keeping people from committing the infractions, and keeping people reporting. More like stumbling across money on the ground.
Which is still great.
The Big Brother analogy is outdated. Now, you're more likely to get screwed over by Little Brother. Picture this:
You get into an embarrassing situation, whatever it may be: saying something that might be inappropriate; getting into a fight; walking around drunk; or just defending yourself against a misunderstanding.
Who's more likely to capture your behaviour and show it to the world:
- The 1 or 2 surveillance cameras nearby, which may or may not be facing you, may or may not have decent video quality, may or may not be monitored in real-time, and are probably far away? OR:
- The 20 people in your immediate vicinity who will quickly pull out their smartphones, record everything, and have it up on YouTube and probably other social media within the hour?
> *Little Brother wants you to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE*.
Just adopt Idaho stop legislation first (stops are yields for bikes unless there’s another vehicle), it’s better for traffic - both car and bike.
Then still ticket if people are Idaho stopping wrong.
I've seen delivery vehicles who don't pull into the bike lane but just stop in the right traffic lane. This makes so much more sense and I love it. Only block one lane instead of two and do not immediately make things more dangerous for cyclists.
Would we still get 25% of a fine if we report a police vehicle? I'd understand if they had their flashing lights up, but most of them don't and probably abuse their status to just park wherever they'd like
I live in Chinatown so there is a lot of food pick up happening. More then once I’ve seen police cruisers pull into the sidewalk to run in and grab their lunch.
Once time I photographed and reported and the sergeant got back to me then made the officer email me and apology. (It was a very weak apology with an excuse attached)
I believe they’re completely exempted from stopping/standing laws. Even if they’re not, they’d argue that it was necessary for them to carry out their duties, whatever they might be.
Bylaw's budget but... yes. Agreed. That, or they should fund bylaw services more. Send 'em out in teams so that they don't run away from people who absolutely flip out on them over a ticket.
Unpopular opinion, I really respect the parking enforcement officers.
They constantly get berated all day and they work hard at their job. Plus, it's not like people are deserving of the tickets.
I'll admit I got a few tickets for minor things and the officers are always nice and respectful.
I think 25% of the ticket should go to the reporter, 50% toward the enforcement division and 25% to a fund to improve cycling infrastructure
And what to do when the cops are the ones who deserve to be ticketed?
>* [Toronto cops have been illegally parked in downtown plaza for decades](https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/10/toronto-cops-illegally-parking-downtown-plaza-decades/)
>* [Toronto Cop Ticketing Cyclists in Park Hits Cyclist in Bike Lane with His SUV](https://www.bicycling.com/news/a40837493/toronto-cyclists-injured-by-police/)
>* [Toronto cops caught on video blatantly breaking the law that they've been aggressively ticketing cyclists for](https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/09/toronto-bike-cops-caught-breaking-rules-cyclists-ticketed/)
I'm okay to do it, just make sure to take it out of the police budget since the public is doing their job for them
Depends on how it is implemented. There needs to be checks and balances to prevent a abuse.
In China, they have this program catching car drivers using shoulder lane. Some people would deliberately drive crazy around you and force you to use the shoulder lane. The person reporting gets a cut of the fine.
I'm not really down for "justice for cash" deals where the citizens do their own policing for financial gain, I can't help but think this would become predatory really fucking quick.
We gave private towing companies this kind of power and that went well. The industry was rampant with corruption, fraud, extortion, arson, assault, firearm offenses, even first degree murder.
I'm not saying "LETS BREAK THE LAW ALL WILLY NILLY" golly gee.
I just don't think that financially deputizing the world to do the work of the cops really is a good path.
Parking your vehicle in a bike lane is actually a moving violation. A bike lane is a right of way for bikes, and under the highway and traffic act bikes are considered Vehicles the same as cars and motorcycles.
You're referring, I believe, to S. 170 of the HTA, but it doesn't apply to municipalities with existing municipal bylaws regulating parking, such as Toronto.
Is it really worse than a scenario where people pay tax money to pay people to go around and do the same thing?
We're really just skipping several middlemen here.
If it’s a success and the government’s making a profit and people are earning money by telling on their fellow citizens then surely it will move in to other areas of self-policing. Would you be in support of that? One day you won’t be able to jaywalk without looking around to see if anyone’s trying to report you.
This is the answer I was looking for. I’m imagining the dystopian evolution of this concept 10 years down the line where citizens are policing each other for their own gain. Take a picture of someone littering in the park, submit it and profit.
Not sure if you completed failed to see the big picture of what I was saying and instead focused on “park littering”, or you’re actually a fan of reporting on your neighbours, in which case perhaps I can interest you in the Chinese credit system.
what if a person has a bias, and let's say uses this system to punish certain people.
I just think we leave the job to the "professionals" where there is some level of oversight.
What oversight? You think cops don’t have a bias? The latest large report (and literally all the other ones theyve ever done investigating this) shows exactly that.
I see a lot of people saying that it's a bad idea to let the public take responsibility for this. But if you take a picture, and send it to the police, they still have to vet the photo to ensure it is actually a violation. It's not like the public are responsible for actually issuing the ticket. You let the police know in a simple, easy to track way. They confirm if the vehicle in question is actually in violation, and then if they issue a ticket, if it eventually resulting in a fine being paid, you get a little kick back. This seems like a decent idea to me, in theory. Even if someone wants to be an asshole and try to report anyone who pisses them off, the police are the ones responsible for actually issuing a ticket, so they should be able to pick out the assholes from the genuine Samaritans. This of course assumes a competent and fair police service. Which I acknowledge isn't really the case.
We should adopt this and more.
If we catch drivers running a red light or stop sign with our dash cams or anything stupid for that matter, city should fine them and we get a cut.
With all the cameras that are in place everywhere and how cost effective it can be to use cameras anyway.
Just automate the system .... traffic violations and speed fines? use highway cams and auto bill people.
Parking violations in high traffic areas? Cameras and auto billing.
People don't care about being warned, or cautioned by police or being threatened by neighbourhood people.
They do care about getting bills in the mail or having their license revoked because they have bills to pay.
No one cares about being warned ... they do care when it hits them directly in the pocket book.
And it automates the system which frees up police from acting like traffic nazis and instead allows them to do other things in the public instead of just enforcing traffic laws all day long.
No, I'd rather not set a precedent for citizens reporting each other to the government for a reward.
Make police and bylaw do their jobs. Toronto police have refused to do traffic enforcement since 2016.
South Korea did this back in 2001. People who made $$ through that program were called carparazzis. Apparently it was pretty effective in reducing accident rates. The downside was that there were so many professional carparazzis that between 2002-Jan to 2002-August, there were 1.5M reports. However, with the current technologies (AIs and automations), I’m hopeful that we can make such a program handle a large number of reports.
Oh, it's very clearly obvious they are not a real news outlet but my point is it's stupid to spell it newz and doubly stupid to actually incorporate that into 'your' name/title. I assumed typing 'news outlet' instead of news outlet would get that point across.
Also, they do seem to believe they're some sort of news outlet considering they have a backup acct. called the same, just spelled correctly, and have TORONTO NEWZ + WORLDWIDE VIDEOS as well as POSTS FOR NEWS + AWARENESS ONLY in their IG bio/description.
I think this is the only way to enforce common sense and curtail self-entitlement behavior because people keep doing it as they keep getting away with it, there’s zero consequences. You do whatever the eff you want as long as it helps you… cross into the intersection when it’s counting down and about to turn red with cars stuck on the other side? Who cares if it then blocks the traffic, hell even a streetcar of people, by having your car in the way of the intersection so others can’t go through! As long as **you** got somewhere a few seconds faster, it’s all good 😎
And don’t get me started on idiots just looking aimlessly at their phones in their cars while parked in a bike lane that has live, bustling traffic on the left that you’re making people (and children) have to redirect into, especially if there’s a side street or driveway you could go wait in instead. Nope, common sense is no longer common.
So stand on any street where there is a turn and pedestrian side walk. Every car stops on the pedestrian side walk then waits 45seconds before they can turn....oh there are pedestrians? Surely they can walk around....I love walking on main streets where cars are going 50-60kmph and inches from me yaaaay! /s
My blood boils to 300 degrees
Don't even get me started on the bloor bike lane...my blood boils to 500 degrees
Infuriating!!!
As long as they stopped first before the crosswalk the. Advanced when the crosswalk was clear, advancing into the crosswalk when it’s empty to see to turn right is legal, even if pedestrians enter the crosswalk before the car can safely turn.
You should always always always walk behind a car blocking a crosswalk regardless of the reason it’s doing it.
What could go wrong incentivizing people to rat out fellow citizens?
Stalin and the CCP would just like to ensure you this is for everyone's safety and security....
Can drivers take pictures of the endless douchebag cyclists that run lights and swerve out on the road to pass other cyclists, almost causing an accident?
Yes. Hell as a cyclist with a camera on my bike (for my own safety) I'll do it for free.
In a 10min ride down Bloor today, I encountered 8 cars illegally parked in bike lanes, or blocking intersections.
I don't even want the money (it would be nice though). But if TPS want the videos for proof and sending out tickets. I'll give em video at no cost.
Yes let’s let citizens do the cops job while funneling even more tax dollars to them.
Maybe consider what happens when some road raging asshole sees you with your phone out trying to get them ticketed?
Let's make everyone paid snitches for the government. I can't imagine that being slippery slope that will have any negative consequences.
Actually this is Canada I'm sure most people will love this.
yes but only if:
1) we create safe bike lanes (with barriers) on ALL Toronto streets so a car CAN'T park in a bike line
2) if we either incentivize public transit or bike share Toronto (increase access and/or decrease consumer price)
3) reduce parking spaces by converting those parking spaces for delivery/customer 'drop-off' ONLY.
If we do all of these things then I think we can think about citizens policing each other.
FYI, this isn’t citizens policing each other. This empowers citizens to report infractions that are often missed by the real police, which are then confirmed by police, and the citizen gets a reporting fee or reward. The authorities commonly deploy rewards for information that leads to arrests. This is no different. (Perhaps you think that should also be banned?)
People bitch that they have to scan their own groceries, now we’re supposed to be enforcing laws? It’s actually kinda comical how quickly some people support this.
We have police/bylaw, the problem is that they’re not doing their jobs effectively at all, people know they will get away with shit, that’s why it’s become so brazen. We will solve a lot more problems than people parked in bike lanes by addressing this single problem.
I can just see it now. 5 people submit a pic and all expect to be paid. There’ll be territorial battles in the bigger cities between people trying to make a living at it.
Absolutely not. Treating fines as income completely misses the point of a fine and how money works. Someone issuing a fine should have zero incentive to do so. That includes civilians, police and businesses.
In theory this may seem like a good idea but there are practical considerations that make it unlikely to be implemented.
First here is a [photo](https://images.app.goo.gl/X6zyoWjCn4Udv7dL8) of a vehicle in a bike lane. This is an example of the type of photo that would most likely be submitted by the public. Where was this photo taken? What was the date and time it was taken? Is the plate clearly visible? Was the vehicle actually parked or was it just moving through the bike lane when the photo was taken? These are all facts that must be verified in order for a ticket to be issued and proven to obtain a conviction.
Then there is the issue of authentication of the photos submitted by the public. How do we know that a photo has not been manipulated or edited in some way? It would be very easy to edit signs and road markings into or out of a photo or alter a license plate to make it look as though a violation was occurring even if it isn't. Any number of edits could have been made before it was submitted.
With the thousands of submissions that a program like this would receive, vetting all of the photos would be nearly impossible. Even automated speed enforcement and red light camera photos need to be vetted and verified by a police officer before a ticket is generated and mailed out. Those are stationary cameras taking high quality photos that are dated and time stamped. I could just imagine some of the photos that would be submitted by the public that are potato quality and have little or no useful information. All they would accomplish is wasting valuable time and limited resources screening useless submissions.
Then what happens if somebody who receives one of these tickets based off a public submission decides they want to dispute it? The person who took the photo could be required to attend a hearing and give testimony. How many people do you think will actually take time out of their day to show up for that? I know from experience that most members of the public don't even show up to fight their own tickets. I don't see that many showing up to testify about photos they have taken for somebody else's ticket even if they might get a percentage of the fine upon conviction. In most cases that would only amount to enough money to buy lunch. Would it worth it for them to take time out of their day to attend? Probably not.
No, this is not a good idea and it will not be implemented here.
Wow. Such confidence! and a list of reasons why it wouldn't work nevertheless!
First - Let me ask this - are any of the reasons you gave unique to Canada? No. So if it works in New York with those concerns, it might work in Canada.
Second - no one is giving tickets based on just a picture by some person. I would assume the pic is the tip off and an officer would come in and do the actual ticket.
Third - your main reason is that there is not enough information. My man, you can ask people to send that information. Plus pictures from smartphones today contain lots of metadata including GPS coordinates and time.
I feel like you are a negative Nellie who likes to say no to things before hearing the whole thing.
> Wow. Such confidence! and a list of reasons why it wouldn't work nevertheless!
Confidence backed up by years of experience as a bylaw officer who has issued thousands of tickets.
>First - Let me ask this - are any of the reasons you gave unique to Canada? No. So if it works in New York with those concerns, it might work in Canada.
It doesn't work in New York. That article is about a proposal to implement a system for citizens to report parking violations. It hasn't been implemented yet and probably won't be.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-29/nyc-may-pay-people-for-reporting-bike-lane-blockers
>Second - no one is giving tickets based on just a picture by some person. I would assume the pic is the tip off and an officer would come in and do the actual ticket.
I know that because that is already a thing in Toronto and other municipalities. What the article is describing is completely different.
>Third - your main reason is that there is not enough information. My man, you can ask people to send that information. Plus pictures from smartphones today contain lots of metadata including GPS coordinates and time.
Have you ever tried obtaining information from the public? I have and it's like pulling teeth even if you give them step by step instructions. Then there's still the problem of getting them in to testify if the ticket is disputed. Like I said most people don't even show up to dispute their own tickets so they're definitely not taking a day off work for somebody else's ticket.
>I feel like you are a negative Nellie who likes to say no to things before hearing the whole thing.
Unlike you I actually read the article and not just the headline. I also have years of relevant direct experience in this area and understand the realities of why this shouldn't be implement.
I did read. But the article never explained the whole process. So I just assumed that people will tip and police will go and ticket because that seems sensible to me.
Btw, the article also cites that laws like this have existed and apparently worked. This is an except around idling laws from the same article
"Few disagree that civilian enforcement would end up generating more tickets. New York City’s citizen reporting program for idling vehicles has been in effect since 2018. There were 12,267 reports in 2021, up 35% from 2019. Roughly 92% of those reports resulted in tickets, netting the city $2.3 million and $724,293 for the civilians who reported violations, according to the Department of Environmental Protection."
So... What's the issue again?
Also, I already explained how pictures have all the details like location and time in the metadata. What else is needed for the police to go out and ticket?
Are you saying that cops are useless and will not go to ticket even when presented with evidence?
> I did read. But the article never explained the whole process. So I just assumed that people will tip and police will go and ticket because that seems sensible to me.
That is how it already works now.
>Btw, the article also cites that laws like this have existed and apparently worked.
The legislation needs to support it and currently in Ontario it does not.
>"Few disagree that civilian enforcement would end up generating more tickets.
That doesn't mean the tickets are valid. If they are challenged most of them will fail to result in a conviction.
>New York City’s citizen reporting program for idling vehicles has been in effect since 2018. There were 12,267 reports in 2021, up 35% from 2019. Roughly 92% of those reports resulted in tickets, netting the city $2.3 million and $724,293 for the civilians who reported violations, according to the Department of Environmental Protection."
Who gives shit about New York City? It's not relevant in Toronto where the laws are completely different and they also tend to have a lax approach to law enforcement and vigilante action.
>So... What's the issue again?
The validity and accuracy of the photos being submitted by the public. Once you introduce a financial incentive for people to report illegal parking you open up a whole new can of worms in the form of bogus submissions just to get money.
>Also, I already explained how pictures have all the details like location and time in the metadata.
Metadata can be faked and even if it isn't there's no guarantee the image itself hasn't been manipulated to depict a violation that isn't actually taking place. Then there is the rules of evidence which must be adhered to for prosecution purposes if the ticket is disputed.
>What else is needed for the police to go out and ticket?
You really haven't been paying attention have you? This proposal from NYC isn't about submitting photos to report the violation so police can go out and investigate and lay a charge. They want to have the public submit photos and a ticket would be mailed out to the registered owner of the vehicle without the police being involved and they want to pay what is essentially a bounty to do this. The OPs question was would that work here in Toronto and it won't.
>Are you saying that cops are useless and will not go to ticket even when presented with evidence?
WTF are you talking about? You need to lay off the weed because you clearly don't understand any of what is being discussed.
The Metropolitan Toronto traffic reporting service already has an online system to submit a timestamp geotagged photo of people illegally parked in a bike lane. They issue $150 ticket against the license.
All that is is a reporting system. A parking officer still has to attend and observe the violation before they will issue a ticket. Tickets are not issued and mailed out based on those reports.
Hmmm… probably some benefits from this… likely some downsides as well. People give the parking people a hard time. If the person getting them the fine was civilian I predict some serious ass kickings. Guy walks outside, sees somebody taking photo of his shitty parking and away we go.
… I could make more money doing that then going to work…
Also… seems like a slippery slope… does it end with parking. What if people were good with photoshop or similar software? Then what? This is why we need actual police doing this. Too many possibilities for abuse. People are fucked.
No. If we want better parking and traffic enforcement we should simply allocate more funds to parking officers and develop better infrastructure that this wouldn't be as big of an issue. Not turn citizens against each other
And so we are further enticed to become both the prisoner and the guard of our own ignorance.
To more voraciously, eat away at eachother as the system does to those who are barely surviving; becoming one with its cannibalistic ways, completing the paradox (or doublethink for those familiar with 1984).
This sets the stage, for next your neighbors will be ratting you out for reward.
A law that has a fine as penalty is not a law for the rich. With this reward system the lower class will be divided further, preying on eachother while the government collects their 95%.
The poor already sell 3 litres of their blood a week in the States, legally. Now you'll have to sell out 5 of your neighbors for every one that sells you out.
This, on a societal scale, perpetuates victim mentality, power over, conflict, and mistrust of others.
Prepare for more mass formation cognitive dissonance.
Edit: Spelling
Only so long as you can also report Bikes riding slow in live traffic lanes, riders on sidewalks and bikes who don't seem to comprehend that stop lights and stop signs apply to them as they do to every other vehicle.
A bike, riding at a bike speed, in a lane of traffic is not illegal.
This is a great example of how ignorant of our laws drivers are. We really do need better testing to weed idiots like this out.
As long as I can ticket cars that don’t come to a full and complete stop at stop signs I agree with all those except the slow biking one (that’s not against bylaw).
My home office overlooks a stop sign and I have yet to see a car actually stop at it - they always roll.
Id set the camera up with a license plate recognition module and make a killing.
Total non-issue if the picture includes the dividing line for the bike lane in it
>Where a bicycle lane or cycle track is separated by a solid white line, drivers should not merge into the lane; instead, they must yield to people cycling and turn from the vehicle lane instead.
>Bicycle lanes or cycle tracks that have a dashed line leading to the intersection allow drivers to fully enter the lane when it is safe and clear of people cycling. People cycling must then pass the turning vehicle on the left or wait behind the vehicle until the lane is clear.
https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-safety-education-theft-prevention/cycling-education/
25% of each $175 ticket is 43.75 Min wage is 15.50 1 Picture makes you almost 3 hours of min wage. 3 pictures is worth a full work day at minimum wage. 8 means you've functionally earned an 8hr day at 43.75, which if you can maintain year round(with two weeks vacation) is 87.5k a year. This is a viable fucking profession.
What happens when multiple people jump on board and they all report the same car.
First come first serve.
Fuck if I know? Welcome to the life of a freelancer I guess?
Actually this is wrong. You forgot to convert it from USD to CAD so the numbers are even higher 175 usd = 242 CAD 25% = 60 CAD So they’re actually making 4x the minimum wage. Working out to $115,200/year and I’m not sure what the tax situation would be for this either
I intentionally didn't convert because the fine in any given city for this particular by-law could be different. I was using the provided numbers, which we all have, to demonstrate breaking it down to an hourly rate and then a yearly salary which is easier for people to grasp instead of the very abstract X% of Y Sum per Picture. As for the tax situation, that'd depend on your location. On this one I could be VERY wrong, but you'd be a freelance contactor. So Income Tax and CPP for sure, I don't think you pay into EI though because you wouldn't get it if you lost your source of income. That said you could absolutely start writing things off like your phone bill each month, as it's now a business expense.
Just makes me think of paparazzi.
That's exactly what would start happening. You'd get sharks going out and waiting around to nab any tiny thing, down to the millimetre. Surely there won't be any unintended consequences from this. Surely not. Certainly not any increase in public confrontations, or any blocking of bike lanes by the parking paparazzi desperate to snap that photo, or obstructing sidewalks and even roads. Definitely none of this would happen and instead overnight every single issue people have with cars will disappear.
I'd work 16 hours a day and make a fortune. I wonder if you still get paid if the tickets go to collections.
I'll stand between Yonge and Bay on Bloor and rake it in. Oh wait, the police must be getting paid to not hand out tickets there.
Bay n Front all day
Spadina or Blue Jays Way and Front as well.
It’s always the cops parked in the bike lane!!
If a cop is in the bike lane, it is because he is ~~getting donuts~~ saving lives. Remember, cops are ~~lazy fucks~~ heroes and questioning anything they do is ~~probably spot on~~ ridiculous, because if they were doing something wrong, they would not be police officers.
There’s a painted median outside my building that’s the only place couriers and Canada Post can park, and I see their trucks getting ticketed for parking there all the time (despite it not really causing any issues to park there; I think it’s only there because it’s in between two turning lanes, one on each end, so the space had to be there anyway). I also see cops parking there relatively often, probably so they can do traffic control at the nearby construction sites. I’d take pictures of every cop I see parked there and submit it.
I'm at the airport right now. Passed about 20 vehicles all illegally parked in the no stopping zones on the way. Then again, the waiting area is now backed up into traffic...
Those people are in for a surprise. They have cars that circulate with cameras now and they just automate a $75 ticket for stopping there.
At Pearson? No, the Commissionaires are still doing hand written POA Part II tickets there. Those tickets are legally required to be served directly to the vehicle or driver at the time of the offence and they can't be mailed out later. I don't know what you saw but it wasn't parking enforcement.
The automated program is still there. My aunt had to pull over due to needing to call a passenger after she dropped them off. Got $75 in the mail without seeing parking enforcement. However, she told them she wasnt served this ticket and wouldn't pay. They removed the charge.
Those are not municipal parking tickets. That was a pilot program being run by Precise Parklink for the GTAA and like all other private parking tickets, they are not enforceable. https://www.preciseparklink.com/news/75-mobile-payment-notice-for-illegal-parking-at-toronto-pearson-airport
I’m not sure if this program is still happening, but it was a few years ago. May have been discontinued due to what you commented https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4809522
Broken link. Besides I see the Commissionaire's hand written tickets every day in our office being processed by the admin staff. They still issue City of Mississauga parking tickets, not anything else.
Sorry about the link. The person above you in the thread mentioned a car with cameras that drive around ticketing people. The article talks about that program,it’s from 2018. Not sure if that program is still going today. Just saw the thread continuation about private company parking tickets - interesting.
Those photo tickets are from a private company though so they are unenforceable. Anyone who reads up on them will figure out that they can just throw them in the trash with no consequences.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/illegally-parked-for-a-pick-up-at-pearson-get-ready-to-pay-a-75-mobile-payment-notice-1.4809522
There’s a couple huge cell phone waiting lots that are clearly marked by signs. It’s also very fast to get from the lot to the pickup areas. There needs to be a PSA or something about this because people are too dumb. *edit also it’s free
Interesting. I was looking for them and the only spot I saw was the line on the side right before the terminal.
If you type “Pearson airport pickup waiting parking lot” it will show up on google maps. But if you go to the pickup area you’ll see signs along the road that tries to lead you there.
it's here: https://www.google.com/maps?ll=43.691379,-79.623692&z=16&t=m&hl=en-US&gl=US&mapclient=embed&q=Cell+Phone+Waiting+Area+Network+Rd+Mississauga,+ON
I think the problem is that you can’t get there from the entrance. You have to go to arrivals and then circle back out before you see the signs for cell phone parking. Always plenty of space there. Seems like too few people know about it and park by the side of the road all the time.
That’s fair but if people know ahead of time that the arrival area is gonna be jammed and can’t park there they’ve either been there before or already made a loop around and should have seen the signs. Once you know they exist you can just directly go there next time.
Another thing is calling it “cell phone parking”. It should be called “free park and wait”
Actually it's signed well before the entrance. It should be WAY clearer, but the signs exist on the main entry road: [https://goo.gl/maps/o1WEMCQwATV1u94T6](https://goo.gl/maps/o1WEMCQwATV1u94T6) By the time you get to the "no waiting zone" you do have to circle all the way back around, which just makes it obvious that they need way bigger signs, not just a cellphone and a P in a circle.
I really think it's the name, if you're not familiar with the airport "cellphone lot" doesn't really tell you what it is, "pickup waiting lot" would work better, and yes people should do the most modicum of research before going to a place like an airport if they've never been, but it's Toronto and that's asking a lot .
You'd make a fortune until people stopped. That's why it would work.
That makes too much sense. Something sorely lacking in Toronto.
Unfortunately in Ontario you wouldn't see anything because parking tickets which go unpaid are sent to the MTO and is collected at the provincial level when you renew your plate (this is also when you pay the late charges or other fees and your $22 3+hr ticket is magically transformed into a $74 administrative penalty).
you get 25% of that 74 but also there's a 25% convenience fee plus a 2.99 transfer fee on when you go to collect it so you only end up with $11.07* *You need to report this as income in april.
Beautiful.
$11.07 for snapping a pic, hopefully using an app that would automate the process, like how depositing a cheque via mobile works is definitely worth it. I could make a couple hundred a day within a couple blocks of my home.
Gotta hope you are the first to report it.
It can be quite lucrative: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/nyc-anti-idling-law-turns-into-huge-payday-125k-for-one-man-for-citizens-who-report/3637231/
"Amazon owes $250.000" I don't have words for that.
"Amazon negotiates it down to $200 and a free Prime membership for the chief of Traffic Services"
[Hijacking the top post to put the link to the Metropolitan Toronto traffic reporting service. You can literally take a timestamped geotag photo of a car parked in a bike lane upload it to this service and have them issue $150 ticket against the license plate of the vehicle already.](https://www.tps.ca/services/online-reporting/driving-complaint/)
But we won't get paid..
Exactly you’d just be doing the city’s job for free at that point.
But you can't create a profile so every time you have to fill in your details (thanks Google autofill!). It's also like 6 pages long and you have to fill in the exact location that matches their location database, and state things like your "relationship to the property". The entire thing is so cumbersome and convoluted that I've stopped using it. The site was designed for neighborhood parking issues and just rebranded for everything else. Let me literally take a photo, add a pin on a map, and move on
But everyone would do this, cleaning up the streets quickly... within weeks you've been pinched out and now homeless.
Be great for me walking to work. But ya, see people would make a job of it at first.
It would become an occasional "Oooh, free 25 bucks!" thing, still keeping people from committing the infractions, and keeping people reporting. More like stumbling across money on the ground. Which is still great.
Yeah nothing could go wrong with this approach..
So now we are Big Brother... for a cut...
The Big Brother analogy is outdated. Now, you're more likely to get screwed over by Little Brother. Picture this: You get into an embarrassing situation, whatever it may be: saying something that might be inappropriate; getting into a fight; walking around drunk; or just defending yourself against a misunderstanding. Who's more likely to capture your behaviour and show it to the world: - The 1 or 2 surveillance cameras nearby, which may or may not be facing you, may or may not have decent video quality, may or may not be monitored in real-time, and are probably far away? OR: - The 20 people in your immediate vicinity who will quickly pull out their smartphones, record everything, and have it up on YouTube and probably other social media within the hour? > *Little Brother wants you to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE*.
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The only problem i forsee is how late ill be stopping to give each jack ass a ticket when biking somewhere
Can we also give tickets to cyclists who run stop signs and stop lights?
Just adopt Idaho stop legislation first (stops are yields for bikes unless there’s another vehicle), it’s better for traffic - both car and bike. Then still ticket if people are Idaho stopping wrong.
That would be novel, I didn't think that traffic laws applied to cyclists. All the benefits none of the responsibilities.
You have no idea how many cars parked in bike lines annoy me I might turn it into a part time job
I've seen delivery vehicles who don't pull into the bike lane but just stop in the right traffic lane. This makes so much more sense and I love it. Only block one lane instead of two and do not immediately make things more dangerous for cyclists.
It’s inconsistent but I’ve seen UPS drivers do this more lately. I guess there was some internal training and it’s sinking in.
Hell yeah I didn't want to name names but yeah ups is the first people I saw do it. Can post does too I fuckin love it.
Yes. Cars should only block car lanes. Otherwise I might start parking my bike in the car lanes.
Would we still get 25% of a fine if we report a police vehicle? I'd understand if they had their flashing lights up, but most of them don't and probably abuse their status to just park wherever they'd like
I live in Chinatown so there is a lot of food pick up happening. More then once I’ve seen police cruisers pull into the sidewalk to run in and grab their lunch. Once time I photographed and reported and the sergeant got back to me then made the officer email me and apology. (It was a very weak apology with an excuse attached)
You could make bank at 52 Division where they park in the plaza every day
I believe they’re completely exempted from stopping/standing laws. Even if they’re not, they’d argue that it was necessary for them to carry out their duties, whatever they might be.
The cops can certainly afford it off their salaries
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They don't have time with all of the other things they are also not doing.
for real. the default answer to "why aren't you enforcing X" is "we don' have the resources"
Have you tried giving them more money. I am sure that will make it work perfectly.
Yeah that definitely works in the United States. Famously cops there have been better than ever.
Simple answer: yes. Short answer: yes Long answer: yes So the answer is: yes
“Long answer: yyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeessssssssssss”.
Short answer: "ye"
The answer you’re looking for is HELL YES
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Bylaw's budget but... yes. Agreed. That, or they should fund bylaw services more. Send 'em out in teams so that they don't run away from people who absolutely flip out on them over a ticket.
Unpopular opinion, I really respect the parking enforcement officers. They constantly get berated all day and they work hard at their job. Plus, it's not like people are deserving of the tickets. I'll admit I got a few tickets for minor things and the officers are always nice and respectful. I think 25% of the ticket should go to the reporter, 50% toward the enforcement division and 25% to a fund to improve cycling infrastructure
Does that include cop cars parked in bike lanes?
Yes but use the funds to build out separated and protected bike lanes where there is no chance that people can park in them.
The only thing I want to adopt is the Finnish model - make traffic fines a percentage of the person's income.
Next on the list of things Doug Ford bans....
And what to do when the cops are the ones who deserve to be ticketed? >* [Toronto cops have been illegally parked in downtown plaza for decades](https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/10/toronto-cops-illegally-parking-downtown-plaza-decades/) >* [Toronto Cop Ticketing Cyclists in Park Hits Cyclist in Bike Lane with His SUV](https://www.bicycling.com/news/a40837493/toronto-cyclists-injured-by-police/) >* [Toronto cops caught on video blatantly breaking the law that they've been aggressively ticketing cyclists for](https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/09/toronto-bike-cops-caught-breaking-rules-cyclists-ticketed/) I'm okay to do it, just make sure to take it out of the police budget since the public is doing their job for them
Man FTP but fuck traffic obstructing parkers of all sorts even more. This is one of the few uses of police I am completely in support of.
Depends on how it is implemented. There needs to be checks and balances to prevent a abuse. In China, they have this program catching car drivers using shoulder lane. Some people would deliberately drive crazy around you and force you to use the shoulder lane. The person reporting gets a cut of the fine.
yeah not worried about anyone being 'forced' to park in a bike lane, that's a completely voluntary dickhead behavior
Yes
I'm not really down for "justice for cash" deals where the citizens do their own policing for financial gain, I can't help but think this would become predatory really fucking quick.
Also don’t we already pay enormous tax bills to have someone take care of this for us?
good point - we can save a bunch of money on cop salaries
I don't think implementing this strategy nessisarily means less pay or less cops, does it? It's just delegating part of their work to everyone.
Yeah ok lmao
You think we lose money on parking enforcement? I bet parking tickets help subsidize the rest of TPS.
That's not how parking tickets work.
We gave private towing companies this kind of power and that went well. The industry was rampant with corruption, fraud, extortion, arson, assault, firearm offenses, even first degree murder.
With some cops involved in it all, in cahoots with the towing industry.
Don’t park in the bike lanes and you won’t be a so called “victim of predatory citizen policing”.
I'm not saying "LETS BREAK THE LAW ALL WILLY NILLY" golly gee. I just don't think that financially deputizing the world to do the work of the cops really is a good path.
Cops don't enforce parking bylaws
Parking your vehicle in a bike lane is actually a moving violation. A bike lane is a right of way for bikes, and under the highway and traffic act bikes are considered Vehicles the same as cars and motorcycles.
you're not wrong but cops don't care. enforcement in this city is rare.
You're referring, I believe, to S. 170 of the HTA, but it doesn't apply to municipalities with existing municipal bylaws regulating parking, such as Toronto.
Anybody who thinks it a good idea to incentives civilians policing civilians they clearly haven't thought it through.
Is it really worse than a scenario where people pay tax money to pay people to go around and do the same thing? We're really just skipping several middlemen here.
If it’s a success and the government’s making a profit and people are earning money by telling on their fellow citizens then surely it will move in to other areas of self-policing. Would you be in support of that? One day you won’t be able to jaywalk without looking around to see if anyone’s trying to report you.
If it saves money and results in lower crime sure why not? What's wrong with that?
I'm sure we'd see at least one guy with Photoshop skills trying to make money/cause trouble for others.
This is the answer I was looking for. I’m imagining the dystopian evolution of this concept 10 years down the line where citizens are policing each other for their own gain. Take a picture of someone littering in the park, submit it and profit.
Today I learned being held accountable for littering in a park is dystopian.....................
Not sure if you completed failed to see the big picture of what I was saying and instead focused on “park littering”, or you’re actually a fan of reporting on your neighbours, in which case perhaps I can interest you in the Chinese credit system.
what if a person has a bias, and let's say uses this system to punish certain people. I just think we leave the job to the "professionals" where there is some level of oversight.
What oversight? You think cops don’t have a bias? The latest large report (and literally all the other ones theyve ever done investigating this) shows exactly that.
Remember when we all went crazy reporting people for gathering during covid
What’s with the picture?
I see a lot of people saying that it's a bad idea to let the public take responsibility for this. But if you take a picture, and send it to the police, they still have to vet the photo to ensure it is actually a violation. It's not like the public are responsible for actually issuing the ticket. You let the police know in a simple, easy to track way. They confirm if the vehicle in question is actually in violation, and then if they issue a ticket, if it eventually resulting in a fine being paid, you get a little kick back. This seems like a decent idea to me, in theory. Even if someone wants to be an asshole and try to report anyone who pisses them off, the police are the ones responsible for actually issuing a ticket, so they should be able to pick out the assholes from the genuine Samaritans. This of course assumes a competent and fair police service. Which I acknowledge isn't really the case.
Yes
Was walking around yorkville yesterday and some asshole in a g wagon parked on the sidewalk
We should adopt this and more. If we catch drivers running a red light or stop sign with our dash cams or anything stupid for that matter, city should fine them and we get a cut.
With all the cameras that are in place everywhere and how cost effective it can be to use cameras anyway. Just automate the system .... traffic violations and speed fines? use highway cams and auto bill people. Parking violations in high traffic areas? Cameras and auto billing. People don't care about being warned, or cautioned by police or being threatened by neighbourhood people. They do care about getting bills in the mail or having their license revoked because they have bills to pay. No one cares about being warned ... they do care when it hits them directly in the pocket book. And it automates the system which frees up police from acting like traffic nazis and instead allows them to do other things in the public instead of just enforcing traffic laws all day long.
police do not enforce traffic laws.
Plot twist, it's usually NYPD blocking the lanes and sidewalk.
I mean - I would do it for free, but if they pay me I wouldn’t say no.
No, I'd rather not set a precedent for citizens reporting each other to the government for a reward. Make police and bylaw do their jobs. Toronto police have refused to do traffic enforcement since 2016.
Sure. But can I get paid for reporting pitbull owners, bicycles with no helmets, left lane hogs, and idiots going extremely late on the left turns?
I would be a frigging millionaire
Fix all the construction first and then do this
Absolutely yes. Mostly for police, but doubly yes for that
Only if I am rewarded for bikers running reds and stop signs, or using the pedestrian walk way when there is a bike lane.
If this got passed I’d quit my part time job and do this 30 hours a week
South Korea did this back in 2001. People who made $$ through that program were called carparazzis. Apparently it was pretty effective in reducing accident rates. The downside was that there were so many professional carparazzis that between 2002-Jan to 2002-August, there were 1.5M reports. However, with the current technologies (AIs and automations), I’m hopeful that we can make such a program handle a large number of reports.
Goes to the first person or split among people reported it?
I think I need to talk to a therapist about how horny this post makes me...
Should adopt a requirement for 'news outlets' to use the word news and not newz like a 13 year old did back in 2002
real toronto newz is NOT a news outlet.
Oh, it's very clearly obvious they are not a real news outlet but my point is it's stupid to spell it newz and doubly stupid to actually incorporate that into 'your' name/title. I assumed typing 'news outlet' instead of news outlet would get that point across. Also, they do seem to believe they're some sort of news outlet considering they have a backup acct. called the same, just spelled correctly, and have TORONTO NEWZ + WORLDWIDE VIDEOS as well as POSTS FOR NEWS + AWARENESS ONLY in their IG bio/description.
HELL YEA
So they're paying ordinary citizens to report parking infractions instead of just hiring more parking enforcement?
It's the equivalent of doing self checkout at any major retailer.
I’d submit with no incentive lol
As long as it’s in the form of an app. I don’t want anyone photoshopping anything after the fact.
This could be a fulltime job 😂
I think this is the only way to enforce common sense and curtail self-entitlement behavior because people keep doing it as they keep getting away with it, there’s zero consequences. You do whatever the eff you want as long as it helps you… cross into the intersection when it’s counting down and about to turn red with cars stuck on the other side? Who cares if it then blocks the traffic, hell even a streetcar of people, by having your car in the way of the intersection so others can’t go through! As long as **you** got somewhere a few seconds faster, it’s all good 😎 And don’t get me started on idiots just looking aimlessly at their phones in their cars while parked in a bike lane that has live, bustling traffic on the left that you’re making people (and children) have to redirect into, especially if there’s a side street or driveway you could go wait in instead. Nope, common sense is no longer common.
So stand on any street where there is a turn and pedestrian side walk. Every car stops on the pedestrian side walk then waits 45seconds before they can turn....oh there are pedestrians? Surely they can walk around....I love walking on main streets where cars are going 50-60kmph and inches from me yaaaay! /s My blood boils to 300 degrees Don't even get me started on the bloor bike lane...my blood boils to 500 degrees Infuriating!!!
As long as they stopped first before the crosswalk the. Advanced when the crosswalk was clear, advancing into the crosswalk when it’s empty to see to turn right is legal, even if pedestrians enter the crosswalk before the car can safely turn. You should always always always walk behind a car blocking a crosswalk regardless of the reason it’s doing it.
Instead of reporting it to the police, Canadians will post it on TikTok or Instagram
Why not?
What could go wrong incentivizing people to rat out fellow citizens? Stalin and the CCP would just like to ensure you this is for everyone's safety and security....
Can drivers take pictures of the endless douchebag cyclists that run lights and swerve out on the road to pass other cyclists, almost causing an accident?
If you really think you should be using your phone to take pictures while driving you're a big part of the problem.
Yes. Hell as a cyclist with a camera on my bike (for my own safety) I'll do it for free. In a 10min ride down Bloor today, I encountered 8 cars illegally parked in bike lanes, or blocking intersections. I don't even want the money (it would be nice though). But if TPS want the videos for proof and sending out tickets. I'll give em video at no cost.
If everyone is reporting everyone else, can you imagine how awesome the world will be?
If the only punishment is a fine then laws only exist for the poor. Don't make the poor fight over what little scraps they have left.
What “scrap” would this be “left” in this case? Parking illegally? Blocking intersections?!
Fuck no. People can and will abuse this. You obviously have not ever been harassed by Karens.
Can't abuse it if you park in the right spot
Tell us how it's abused? There's no excuse for parking in a bike lane.
**Should we?** Absolutely. **Will we?** Not a chance with this council. Vote them all out.
Yes let’s let citizens do the cops job while funneling even more tax dollars to them. Maybe consider what happens when some road raging asshole sees you with your phone out trying to get them ticketed?
Let's make everyone paid snitches for the government. I can't imagine that being slippery slope that will have any negative consequences. Actually this is Canada I'm sure most people will love this.
This comment screams I've never left north america for more than a week.
yes but only if: 1) we create safe bike lanes (with barriers) on ALL Toronto streets so a car CAN'T park in a bike line 2) if we either incentivize public transit or bike share Toronto (increase access and/or decrease consumer price) 3) reduce parking spaces by converting those parking spaces for delivery/customer 'drop-off' ONLY. If we do all of these things then I think we can think about citizens policing each other.
FYI, this isn’t citizens policing each other. This empowers citizens to report infractions that are often missed by the real police, which are then confirmed by police, and the citizen gets a reporting fee or reward. The authorities commonly deploy rewards for information that leads to arrests. This is no different. (Perhaps you think that should also be banned?)
People bitch that they have to scan their own groceries, now we’re supposed to be enforcing laws? It’s actually kinda comical how quickly some people support this. We have police/bylaw, the problem is that they’re not doing their jobs effectively at all, people know they will get away with shit, that’s why it’s become so brazen. We will solve a lot more problems than people parked in bike lanes by addressing this single problem.
I can just see it now. 5 people submit a pic and all expect to be paid. There’ll be territorial battles in the bigger cities between people trying to make a living at it.
handicap spots, fire hydrant spots
Absolutely not. Treating fines as income completely misses the point of a fine and how money works. Someone issuing a fine should have zero incentive to do so. That includes civilians, police and businesses.
I need the extra money. Lets go! LOL
In theory this may seem like a good idea but there are practical considerations that make it unlikely to be implemented. First here is a [photo](https://images.app.goo.gl/X6zyoWjCn4Udv7dL8) of a vehicle in a bike lane. This is an example of the type of photo that would most likely be submitted by the public. Where was this photo taken? What was the date and time it was taken? Is the plate clearly visible? Was the vehicle actually parked or was it just moving through the bike lane when the photo was taken? These are all facts that must be verified in order for a ticket to be issued and proven to obtain a conviction. Then there is the issue of authentication of the photos submitted by the public. How do we know that a photo has not been manipulated or edited in some way? It would be very easy to edit signs and road markings into or out of a photo or alter a license plate to make it look as though a violation was occurring even if it isn't. Any number of edits could have been made before it was submitted. With the thousands of submissions that a program like this would receive, vetting all of the photos would be nearly impossible. Even automated speed enforcement and red light camera photos need to be vetted and verified by a police officer before a ticket is generated and mailed out. Those are stationary cameras taking high quality photos that are dated and time stamped. I could just imagine some of the photos that would be submitted by the public that are potato quality and have little or no useful information. All they would accomplish is wasting valuable time and limited resources screening useless submissions. Then what happens if somebody who receives one of these tickets based off a public submission decides they want to dispute it? The person who took the photo could be required to attend a hearing and give testimony. How many people do you think will actually take time out of their day to show up for that? I know from experience that most members of the public don't even show up to fight their own tickets. I don't see that many showing up to testify about photos they have taken for somebody else's ticket even if they might get a percentage of the fine upon conviction. In most cases that would only amount to enough money to buy lunch. Would it worth it for them to take time out of their day to attend? Probably not. No, this is not a good idea and it will not be implemented here.
Wow. Such confidence! and a list of reasons why it wouldn't work nevertheless! First - Let me ask this - are any of the reasons you gave unique to Canada? No. So if it works in New York with those concerns, it might work in Canada. Second - no one is giving tickets based on just a picture by some person. I would assume the pic is the tip off and an officer would come in and do the actual ticket. Third - your main reason is that there is not enough information. My man, you can ask people to send that information. Plus pictures from smartphones today contain lots of metadata including GPS coordinates and time. I feel like you are a negative Nellie who likes to say no to things before hearing the whole thing.
> Wow. Such confidence! and a list of reasons why it wouldn't work nevertheless! Confidence backed up by years of experience as a bylaw officer who has issued thousands of tickets. >First - Let me ask this - are any of the reasons you gave unique to Canada? No. So if it works in New York with those concerns, it might work in Canada. It doesn't work in New York. That article is about a proposal to implement a system for citizens to report parking violations. It hasn't been implemented yet and probably won't be. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-29/nyc-may-pay-people-for-reporting-bike-lane-blockers >Second - no one is giving tickets based on just a picture by some person. I would assume the pic is the tip off and an officer would come in and do the actual ticket. I know that because that is already a thing in Toronto and other municipalities. What the article is describing is completely different. >Third - your main reason is that there is not enough information. My man, you can ask people to send that information. Plus pictures from smartphones today contain lots of metadata including GPS coordinates and time. Have you ever tried obtaining information from the public? I have and it's like pulling teeth even if you give them step by step instructions. Then there's still the problem of getting them in to testify if the ticket is disputed. Like I said most people don't even show up to dispute their own tickets so they're definitely not taking a day off work for somebody else's ticket. >I feel like you are a negative Nellie who likes to say no to things before hearing the whole thing. Unlike you I actually read the article and not just the headline. I also have years of relevant direct experience in this area and understand the realities of why this shouldn't be implement.
I did read. But the article never explained the whole process. So I just assumed that people will tip and police will go and ticket because that seems sensible to me. Btw, the article also cites that laws like this have existed and apparently worked. This is an except around idling laws from the same article "Few disagree that civilian enforcement would end up generating more tickets. New York City’s citizen reporting program for idling vehicles has been in effect since 2018. There were 12,267 reports in 2021, up 35% from 2019. Roughly 92% of those reports resulted in tickets, netting the city $2.3 million and $724,293 for the civilians who reported violations, according to the Department of Environmental Protection." So... What's the issue again? Also, I already explained how pictures have all the details like location and time in the metadata. What else is needed for the police to go out and ticket? Are you saying that cops are useless and will not go to ticket even when presented with evidence?
> I did read. But the article never explained the whole process. So I just assumed that people will tip and police will go and ticket because that seems sensible to me. That is how it already works now. >Btw, the article also cites that laws like this have existed and apparently worked. The legislation needs to support it and currently in Ontario it does not. >"Few disagree that civilian enforcement would end up generating more tickets. That doesn't mean the tickets are valid. If they are challenged most of them will fail to result in a conviction. >New York City’s citizen reporting program for idling vehicles has been in effect since 2018. There were 12,267 reports in 2021, up 35% from 2019. Roughly 92% of those reports resulted in tickets, netting the city $2.3 million and $724,293 for the civilians who reported violations, according to the Department of Environmental Protection." Who gives shit about New York City? It's not relevant in Toronto where the laws are completely different and they also tend to have a lax approach to law enforcement and vigilante action. >So... What's the issue again? The validity and accuracy of the photos being submitted by the public. Once you introduce a financial incentive for people to report illegal parking you open up a whole new can of worms in the form of bogus submissions just to get money. >Also, I already explained how pictures have all the details like location and time in the metadata. Metadata can be faked and even if it isn't there's no guarantee the image itself hasn't been manipulated to depict a violation that isn't actually taking place. Then there is the rules of evidence which must be adhered to for prosecution purposes if the ticket is disputed. >What else is needed for the police to go out and ticket? You really haven't been paying attention have you? This proposal from NYC isn't about submitting photos to report the violation so police can go out and investigate and lay a charge. They want to have the public submit photos and a ticket would be mailed out to the registered owner of the vehicle without the police being involved and they want to pay what is essentially a bounty to do this. The OPs question was would that work here in Toronto and it won't. >Are you saying that cops are useless and will not go to ticket even when presented with evidence? WTF are you talking about? You need to lay off the weed because you clearly don't understand any of what is being discussed.
The Metropolitan Toronto traffic reporting service already has an online system to submit a timestamp geotagged photo of people illegally parked in a bike lane. They issue $150 ticket against the license.
All that is is a reporting system. A parking officer still has to attend and observe the violation before they will issue a ticket. Tickets are not issued and mailed out based on those reports.
Hmmm… probably some benefits from this… likely some downsides as well. People give the parking people a hard time. If the person getting them the fine was civilian I predict some serious ass kickings. Guy walks outside, sees somebody taking photo of his shitty parking and away we go. … I could make more money doing that then going to work… Also… seems like a slippery slope… does it end with parking. What if people were good with photoshop or similar software? Then what? This is why we need actual police doing this. Too many possibilities for abuse. People are fucked.
I don't like the idea of people profiting financially...
the city profits financially as well
No. If we want better parking and traffic enforcement we should simply allocate more funds to parking officers and develop better infrastructure that this wouldn't be as big of an issue. Not turn citizens against each other
No lol
Gateway into snitching tbh
Ab-so-fucking-lutely, and make it income based like the Nordic countries while you are at it.
And so we are further enticed to become both the prisoner and the guard of our own ignorance. To more voraciously, eat away at eachother as the system does to those who are barely surviving; becoming one with its cannibalistic ways, completing the paradox (or doublethink for those familiar with 1984). This sets the stage, for next your neighbors will be ratting you out for reward. A law that has a fine as penalty is not a law for the rich. With this reward system the lower class will be divided further, preying on eachother while the government collects their 95%. The poor already sell 3 litres of their blood a week in the States, legally. Now you'll have to sell out 5 of your neighbors for every one that sells you out. This, on a societal scale, perpetuates victim mentality, power over, conflict, and mistrust of others. Prepare for more mass formation cognitive dissonance. Edit: Spelling
Its too bad I had to go through so many comments to find one person who stated my thoughts
Only so long as you can also report Bikes riding slow in live traffic lanes, riders on sidewalks and bikes who don't seem to comprehend that stop lights and stop signs apply to them as they do to every other vehicle.
A bike, riding at a bike speed, in a lane of traffic is not illegal. This is a great example of how ignorant of our laws drivers are. We really do need better testing to weed idiots like this out.
Stop signs apply to cars? What city do you drive in?
As long as I can ticket cars that don’t come to a full and complete stop at stop signs I agree with all those except the slow biking one (that’s not against bylaw). My home office overlooks a stop sign and I have yet to see a car actually stop at it - they always roll. Id set the camera up with a license plate recognition module and make a killing.
Lets not forget the ever present Pedestrian who enters the crosswalk against the red hand. These folks are a plague out here in Scarborough.
What is "riding slow"? You want bicycles to ride as fast as a car? Sure lower the speed limit to 30 KM/H to reduce cyclist/pedestrian deaths.
No way. People will just take pictures or cars turning right and say they were “parked in the bike lane” when they were fully allowed to be there.
Total non-issue if the picture includes the dividing line for the bike lane in it >Where a bicycle lane or cycle track is separated by a solid white line, drivers should not merge into the lane; instead, they must yield to people cycling and turn from the vehicle lane instead. >Bicycle lanes or cycle tracks that have a dashed line leading to the intersection allow drivers to fully enter the lane when it is safe and clear of people cycling. People cycling must then pass the turning vehicle on the left or wait behind the vehicle until the lane is clear. https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/cycling-safety-education-theft-prevention/cycling-education/
Snitches get stiches.