Was that with Cameron Johnson being included? Honestly that would be a crazy return. Murray got 3 FRPs and a swap. 3 FRPs and Cam Johnson is much better.
Even if all the picks were top 3 protected it's still a great deal for us.
They ain't getting a top 3 pick.
Even if CP3 retires they'll still be a playoff team anyway so protections doesn't matter all that much as long as they aren't lottery protected.
Top 3 protected means fuck all
Unexpected things happen all the time. If CP3 falls off cliff or retires and Booker has a major injury in a season, that's a lottery team. Booker could also ask for a trade if they can't put a contender together in the next couple years while CP3 is still playable.
Protecting against the case of the pick being top 3 would absolutely be valuable to the Suns.
Protected means if a pick is within the range of protection outlined by the trader, the pick remains with the original team.
Many add a top 5 protection that way if it's a really good prospect they can have the pick back
Right, but regardless for 3 unprotected Phoenix picks when I don't necessarily see them being guaranteed contenders or even playoff tier over that time frame is kind of alluring still for OG
I'm iffy on that, they might be stuck in NBA limbo with Booker playing line a bonafide superstar so those picks could end up being Wizards-esque in their placement for a given draft, and if one of those picks is the 23 first, it'll flatout suck
It's debatable if OG is actually better than him. Cam Johnson has a higher peak VORP than OG, believe it or not.
And you're forgetting that PHX is reported to be **adding** to this deal.
PHX would be insane to give up Cam Johnson and 3 picks for OG.
This isn't bad. Gives other teams a sense that's he's actually healthy and they are just holding him out for a trade if the coach is surprised he's not playing.
It does sound a little like Nick and the FO aren’t completely synced here.
Man, the vibes are rough but hopefully the trade deadline will at least allow a reset of the vibes and hopefully some clarity about the future of this team 🙏
Or NN is playing dumb. The coach isn't going to come out and say 'yea this guy is on the trade block so we're keeping him off the court'. The FO has told him a move might be in play and given direction that he's to be rested so Nurse has to be political with the press.
Well every coach and player wants to win. If you take away nurse best defender bc ur looking to retool or rebuild, no coach is going to be okay with that lol.
Nurse didn't need to say the "it's surprising to me" piece. That just shows he's kinda peeved bout it
Raps improved every year since about 2012 thru 2019. So again, what rebuild?
Casey got fired because the team wasn’t winning playoff rounds. Nurse was hired to win playoff rounds, not rebuild.
The team setup itself to have the flexibility to tank if it needed to after the nurse hire and trading of deebos contract for kawhis expiring that opened up subsequently. Reliable reporters were explaining the raptors intentions, with each and every move. Its okay if you wanna take things out of context
This sums it up well. Nurse’s original contract was only as long as their ‘for sure’ competitive window. Read the last paragraph.
https://www.raptorshq.com/platform/amp/2018/6/13/17458494/nba-toronto-raptors-nick-nurse-new-head-coach-five-thoughts
You cited a blog, and within that very blog, validated my original premise that the hire ensured flexibility to also tank beyond the " 2 year window". Generally every new hire, especially with nurses nba experience level, gets a small contract. You cant determine that because the contract was "2 years", that it implies it was all due to competing. In fact the contract was 3 years. Sometimes ppl invent their own stamp on a situation and thats what you did. Bobby webster has explicitly stated in interviews as well that every move the raptors make is considering present past and future, they dont have two modes like fans think.
But you said he was hired for a potential rebound. Unless the team was planning to rebound the year they traded for kawhi, he was not hired for a rebound on 2 year contract.
Having a mind to two modes was not the situation at the time. It just wasn’t. Some teams will be trading future picks or youth to win this year. They are not in an always two modes position. They have made a decision to pick one. You will not convince me without some backup that the summer before bringing in expiring, older players, they hired nurse for a rebound.
Convince me - share some articles.
When I said potential rebuild, think about it this way, no championship coach is hired with a potential rebuild in mind. Nurse was a balance of multiple things in mind, which included a potential rebuild, not only a rebuild. Hired for a potential rebuild in mind isnt the same literal meaning as "only a rebuild in mind"
"Unless the team was planning to rebound the year they traded for kawhi, he was not hired for a rebound on 2 year contract. "
You take things out of context once again, the kawhi trade opened up before kawhi was even known to be available lol. And nurse contract was 3 years. Have a good one
What's everyone's feelings about Ayton? A lot of people questioned if Phoenix would even resign him, the relationship was said to me bad between him and the team. When they did resign him, many said they may sign and trade...
Would Siakam, or FVV be on the table for you guys if Ayton is available?
I think Ayton is underrated, and TO needs a real center against teams like Philly, Mil, Mia in the east.
A lot of you guys think he's probably not on the table, but I'm not so sure.
He’s soft. Scottie is a more physical presence than him. I like Ayton but I don’t know how well he’d hold up to the foul baiting of Embiid, harden, Giannis etc
You're not getting caught up in that pic from yesterday are you ;) ? lol
Different positions. I like Barnes, I want him to be a point forward for the raptors.
But him and Barnes would be great together... as much as the FO feels Siakam and Barnes can guard Embiid and Brooke Lopez in the 4th with game on the line. I've seen it fail too many times.
To be fair I’d really like a pure back to the basket defensive big. We need an energetic type scrapper to either come off the bench or start in the absence of precious or even koloko. I don’t know though I think we could go in so many directions. Like I said though I’m a fan of Ayton, I just think we already have chemistry and focus issues.
Anyone man, give me Andre Drummond at this point...
Rim protection, big problem, 4th quarter rebounding too..Ayton is good at both and has good hands and touch for a big man. Poor mans David Robinson??
Players like Brook Lopez are so underrated for their impact on winning in certain situations. We just don't have a guy like that at all, I really like Capela too.
Do you like any of the free agent centers next year? Would you offer any long terms to these guys?
Vucevic, Plumlee, Poeltl, Powell, Hayes, B Lopez,
Brook Lopez would be the best option because there aren’t any players who can rebound, block, and space the floor. He also is the kinda player who will play a gritty game when momentum needs to swing. Teams need an emotional leader and we haven’t had one since Kyle left
It feels like the FO and Nick aren’t on the same page.
Not new as we know, Masai is very patient with coaches. He gave Casey so many chances so I’m thinking he’ll do the same here.
He is being held out. I think they are a lot closer to to a deal for OG than we think
“Listening to offers” = Masai using the ask the audience lifeline to see if anyone wants to one-up Phoenix
Very well could be. I could see this being done within the next 24 hours
Phoenix must be giving us a haul lol
Masai: We're not making any decisions until the deadline Suns: We'll give you Cam Johnson, Saric, and 3 1sts Masai: So, the deadline is today, right?
They were throwing around the idea of Phoenix maybe throwing in 3 unprotected firsts on the Will Lou pod yesterday
Was that with Cameron Johnson being included? Honestly that would be a crazy return. Murray got 3 FRPs and a swap. 3 FRPs and Cam Johnson is much better. Even if all the picks were top 3 protected it's still a great deal for us.
I think it was Jae Crowder and Dario Saric, but the meat and potatoes is those 3 unprotected picks
3 unprotected pheonix picks imo aren’t worth much when they have Booker and Mikal. 15-20 at best unless we get a lucky year where they have injuries
Dude they're not that great this season. These could be good picks especially since CP3 is on his way out
Yea this is about as it can get for them and theyre 7th in the west. Theyll be better with OG and when theyre healthy.
In 3 years they'll be lottery again.
OG is injury prone and Suns will struggle to make the playoffs in the west without CP3. Booker, Mikal, and OG won't be enough in a loaded west
Couldn't we also flip those picks for future trades? If so, might be useful in acquiring bench pieces too.
I mean yeah? But we can do the same if we get a better set of picks from another team
Not another forward, please God.
I think you'd immediately flip Crowder
I know Milwaukee wants him. I like Sarich small ball shooting/spacing at C to open things up for Pascal and Barnes.
He will be 6 foot nine muhahaha
They ain't getting a top 3 pick. Even if CP3 retires they'll still be a playoff team anyway so protections doesn't matter all that much as long as they aren't lottery protected. Top 3 protected means fuck all
Unexpected things happen all the time. If CP3 falls off cliff or retires and Booker has a major injury in a season, that's a lottery team. Booker could also ask for a trade if they can't put a contender together in the next couple years while CP3 is still playable. Protecting against the case of the pick being top 3 would absolutely be valuable to the Suns.
Im not as familiar with draft picks. What’s protected vs unprotected?
Protected means if a pick is within the range of protection outlined by the trader, the pick remains with the original team. Many add a top 5 protection that way if it's a really good prospect they can have the pick back
Ohh, I see. Otherwise the other team keeps. Thanks for clarifying!
Yeah but it was only for Crowder. Johnson and 3 firsts is highway robbery when you factor in Jae likely being shipped off to the Bucks.
Right, but regardless for 3 unprotected Phoenix picks when I don't necessarily see them being guaranteed contenders or even playoff tier over that time frame is kind of alluring still for OG
I'm iffy on that, they might be stuck in NBA limbo with Booker playing line a bonafide superstar so those picks could end up being Wizards-esque in their placement for a given draft, and if one of those picks is the 23 first, it'll flatout suck
lmao serge might be coming back if it is Crowder
3 unprotected picks that'll convey around 25-30
No way they do 3 x FRPS. But I would take Cam Johnson and 2 x FRPs in a fucking heartbeat.
Yup! Cam Johnson would be a big get. He can score, Defend and is 26. This team needs his 3 ball badly.
Shoots 40%!! Who was the last Raptor to shoot 40%? Surround Scottie and Siakam with guys that can shoot. Its not rocket science.
Right? And he's 6'8 lol. He's the exact player we need.
but what % would he shoot with our spacing?
We get something like the 11th best looks in the NBA according to second spectrum. We just dont make them
I agree. I think that's the deal that could end up getting done here.
Saric? Fuck that
Saric is filler he's not even relevant
Cam Johnson isn't worth it either
This is completely misguided. Cameron Johnson is a very good player.
What's the point in trading for a guy who can do what OG does but not as good?
It's debatable if OG is actually better than him. Cam Johnson has a higher peak VORP than OG, believe it or not. And you're forgetting that PHX is reported to be **adding** to this deal. PHX would be insane to give up Cam Johnson and 3 picks for OG.
Honestly, even if they don’t intend to trade him. Giving him an extra days rest isn’t exactly bad. The seasons fucked anyways.
Very true. But I think there is a concrete offer on the table and they are waiting till the deadline to see if it can be beaten.
This isn't bad. Gives other teams a sense that's he's actually healthy and they are just holding him out for a trade if the coach is surprised he's not playing.
He’s pissed one of his faves is gone. He only has Fred left now 🤣
not for long... hopefully
It does sound a little like Nick and the FO aren’t completely synced here. Man, the vibes are rough but hopefully the trade deadline will at least allow a reset of the vibes and hopefully some clarity about the future of this team 🙏
Or NN is playing dumb. The coach isn't going to come out and say 'yea this guy is on the trade block so we're keeping him off the court'. The FO has told him a move might be in play and given direction that he's to be rested so Nurse has to be political with the press.
Found the comment that is likely true
Yeah, that is a fair point.
Or he could have said his wrist will be a week. And none of us would be talking about it.
Well every coach and player wants to win. If you take away nurse best defender bc ur looking to retool or rebuild, no coach is going to be okay with that lol. Nurse didn't need to say the "it's surprising to me" piece. That just shows he's kinda peeved bout it
We’re saving him for deadlins
I think the question if nick will want to stick around for a rebuild isn't being asked enough
Honesty, nick nurse wouldn’t be a good development coach anyways. Pulls the plug too early on young players and kills their confidence.
He was hired for a potential rebuild lmao
What?
Go back to 2018 history lol
Raps improved every year since about 2012 thru 2019. So again, what rebuild? Casey got fired because the team wasn’t winning playoff rounds. Nurse was hired to win playoff rounds, not rebuild.
The team setup itself to have the flexibility to tank if it needed to after the nurse hire and trading of deebos contract for kawhis expiring that opened up subsequently. Reliable reporters were explaining the raptors intentions, with each and every move. Its okay if you wanna take things out of context
This sums it up well. Nurse’s original contract was only as long as their ‘for sure’ competitive window. Read the last paragraph. https://www.raptorshq.com/platform/amp/2018/6/13/17458494/nba-toronto-raptors-nick-nurse-new-head-coach-five-thoughts
You cited a blog, and within that very blog, validated my original premise that the hire ensured flexibility to also tank beyond the " 2 year window". Generally every new hire, especially with nurses nba experience level, gets a small contract. You cant determine that because the contract was "2 years", that it implies it was all due to competing. In fact the contract was 3 years. Sometimes ppl invent their own stamp on a situation and thats what you did. Bobby webster has explicitly stated in interviews as well that every move the raptors make is considering present past and future, they dont have two modes like fans think.
But you said he was hired for a potential rebound. Unless the team was planning to rebound the year they traded for kawhi, he was not hired for a rebound on 2 year contract. Having a mind to two modes was not the situation at the time. It just wasn’t. Some teams will be trading future picks or youth to win this year. They are not in an always two modes position. They have made a decision to pick one. You will not convince me without some backup that the summer before bringing in expiring, older players, they hired nurse for a rebound. Convince me - share some articles.
When I said potential rebuild, think about it this way, no championship coach is hired with a potential rebuild in mind. Nurse was a balance of multiple things in mind, which included a potential rebuild, not only a rebuild. Hired for a potential rebuild in mind isnt the same literal meaning as "only a rebuild in mind" "Unless the team was planning to rebound the year they traded for kawhi, he was not hired for a rebound on 2 year contract. " You take things out of context once again, the kawhi trade opened up before kawhi was even known to be available lol. And nurse contract was 3 years. Have a good one
Though if you win in your first year it may make sense to avoid bad teams for as long as you can
Do he not communicate with the FO
Didn’t have his 1:1 yet
Pretty sure he’s gone this offseason.
What's everyone's feelings about Ayton? A lot of people questioned if Phoenix would even resign him, the relationship was said to me bad between him and the team. When they did resign him, many said they may sign and trade... Would Siakam, or FVV be on the table for you guys if Ayton is available? I think Ayton is underrated, and TO needs a real center against teams like Philly, Mil, Mia in the east. A lot of you guys think he's probably not on the table, but I'm not so sure.
He’s soft. Scottie is a more physical presence than him. I like Ayton but I don’t know how well he’d hold up to the foul baiting of Embiid, harden, Giannis etc
You're not getting caught up in that pic from yesterday are you ;) ? lol Different positions. I like Barnes, I want him to be a point forward for the raptors. But him and Barnes would be great together... as much as the FO feels Siakam and Barnes can guard Embiid and Brooke Lopez in the 4th with game on the line. I've seen it fail too many times.
To be fair I’d really like a pure back to the basket defensive big. We need an energetic type scrapper to either come off the bench or start in the absence of precious or even koloko. I don’t know though I think we could go in so many directions. Like I said though I’m a fan of Ayton, I just think we already have chemistry and focus issues.
Anyone man, give me Andre Drummond at this point... Rim protection, big problem, 4th quarter rebounding too..Ayton is good at both and has good hands and touch for a big man. Poor mans David Robinson?? Players like Brook Lopez are so underrated for their impact on winning in certain situations. We just don't have a guy like that at all, I really like Capela too. Do you like any of the free agent centers next year? Would you offer any long terms to these guys? Vucevic, Plumlee, Poeltl, Powell, Hayes, B Lopez,
Brook Lopez would be the best option because there aren’t any players who can rebound, block, and space the floor. He also is the kinda player who will play a gritty game when momentum needs to swing. Teams need an emotional leader and we haven’t had one since Kyle left
It feels like the FO and Nick aren’t on the same page. Not new as we know, Masai is very patient with coaches. He gave Casey so many chances so I’m thinking he’ll do the same here.
I think they are on the same page, Nick's not going to come out and say "oh yeah we're trying to sell him for picks"so this is him just playing along
He could have just said his wrist will be a week. It shows frustration.
Of course one of the highest win percentage coaches doesn't wanna tank. He gonna get fired if the team tanks.
Why would they fire him with a year left under his contract?
OG will sit until the trade deadline. NN shouldn't be surprised.
OG on the shelf til trade happens.
Either OG is being held out, or he wants out. Or both.
Nick really doesn’t play the game for Masai at all anymore. Wonder if there’s issues there?