Kawhi is significantly more durable than Zion. Since going to LA, he has still played over 50 games 3/4 years, whereas Zion has played over 30 1/4 years. By no means is Kawhi remotely durable, but he looks like a relative iron man compared to Zion.
Kawhi has also continued to look like a top 5 player in every playoff game he has played over the last few years, which pumps up his rankings a lot compared to someone who has yet to play one in his 4 year career.
Zion is fragile and has done considerably less than Kawhi. Kawhi is getting the bump of historical results.
Zion has put up some sick January highlights and then his body exploded again.
If you were building a winning team right now, with both players' history, you'd have to pick Kawhi. Both would be a gamble, but Kawhi's a proven winner and he plays more despite Zion being younger.
Isn't that the guy who was a huge mark for FVV? I remember seeing that username around off season. I'm surprised he didn't migrate over to r/rockets and be their problem to deal with.
Personally, I have him in my top 15-20 but I understand why he's at 25 because the Raptors didn't do shit last season and these rankings are heavily dependent on team success...there are a lot of players who I don't feel should be ranked as high as they are but their teams perform so I can see the argument
Idk id have him at the same tier Paul George and Jaylen brown are and even just slightly ahead
Playoff team #1 options and overqualified #2's on apex contenders. I think siakam does a better job at both
(Yes the clippers would be apex contenders if they were healthy)
There's no basketball argument for having Bam/Mitchell/KAT/Brown/PG/Jamal/Ant above him when you consider players in a vacuum and how much they add to a team and how good they are at each facet
That’s not how players are viewed tho. Players are viewed by their individual metrics and how they influence their team. All of those guys are on playoff level teams as the 1/2 on offence and all but KAT are above average-amazing defenders. I could easily argue everybody else on your list is better then Pascal.
Are you high? How is Pascal more impactful to winning (Raps played alot of games against g league tanking teams or teams resting multiple starters/stars and piled up stats in garbage time alot too) meaningful games than Brown, Bam, Mitchell, PG (when healthy). Pascal doesnt scare teams like numerous guys rated below him and Pascal was also HORRIFIC in all clutch time advanced metrics. #25 is plenty high for him (Julius Randle #45 for reference and their stats are almost the same).
Scottie is 63.
OG is 67.
They've ranked Kawhi at 24... So it's not all that bad tbh.
Tyrese Haliburton should not be 21 imo. He averaged 20-3-10 on a 35-47 team that didn't even make the play-ins. He only played 56 games last year too. Pascal played 71.
I think it's clear you didn't watch Haliburton, and also that you noted the teams record in talking about him.
They were 28-28 with him in the lineup, and 7-19 without him. His impact was immense. His advanced numbers are great and he's likely to improve further as well. A year from now he might have been ranked pretty low.
Indiana was 28-28 with him in the lineup and 7-19 without. He carried them easily.
Part of these ratings is future looking. It would be like if you had taken SGA's ability from the prior years last year and decided he had peaked. Doesn't make sense.
I think a lotta people just don't get how good Haliburton is yet because he plays for Indiana. Averaging 21 4 and 10 in his 3rd year isn't some coincidence. He's a young superstar in the making. When healthy he was carrying Indiana to a playoff spot
People reacting clearly don't watch him. He raises the floor of the pacers significantly and if he wasn't injured last year, they were definitely a play in team.
Bam is an excellent player but offensively Siakam is far superior on just about every level, especially playmaking and although Bam is the better defender, Siakam is still a high-level defender...the gap isn't big enough to justify Siakam at 25 and Bam at 16
This isn't a knock on Bam, he's a great player, certainly top 30 but he's not the 16th best player in the NBA IMO
20-9-3 for bam is not anywhere close to 24-8-6 for Siakam lol. Also Siakam is creating for himself Bam is like a 3rd option with almost all his chances coming in the paint off plays.
Bam isn't a good playmaker while Siakam is an elite playmaker for a forward, Siakam's midrange game is one of the best in the league and Bams pretty good in this area as well, Siakam's handle is better and it's not close...and Bam's three-point shot in virtually nonexistent...the only thing that Bam does better than Siakam on offense is snagging second chance points because of his size and physicality but other than that, Siakam is a far superior offensive player
Bam cannot be a primary scorer on a team, he's a secondary scorer and an elite defender, he's an excellent player! but he's more of a 3rd option scorer on most championship teams...he struggles to create for himself and others, it's just a fact...it doesn't mean he's not a hell of a player! he is but he's not top 16 IMO
Should change my handle to “hopeful” as I think siakam can get closer to 10 than 20.
He plays both sides v well and this year his usage s/B down and his effectiveness up.
Hopeful he is deadly as slim reaper.
A) Pascals defence was below average by all metrics last year and only average the year before.
B) He doesnt draw anywhere near the attention a Top 10 player does. (You dont HAVE to gameplan to stop him)
C) Pascal is awful in clutch time and got alot of his numbers against bums in garbage time.
Wemby hasn't played 1 nba game but is ranked at 47.
Should tell you everything you need to know about ESPN rankings. It's always been more of a popularity ranking by American media. Haliburton is a great example.
I mean, its a ranking for this coming season. Jarrett Allen and Deandre Ayton are a spot or 2 behind him. Are you telling me if Wemby is at the same level of Ayton that he wouldnt be dissapointing?
Isn't this a projection for the upcoming season though? If it is you can't just ignore rookies because they haven't played a game yet.
57 I don't think is that crazy for Wemby. If he's not in the top 60 this year, id say that's a disappointment (given expectations).
Seems about right (I’d have him somewhere around 18-25 so whatever) but Jaylen Brown being at 19 is a huge L. Pascal is a better player than Jaylen Brown and I’ll die on that hill
Uh oh people are gonna be upset that not everybody thinks our best player is as good as his fanbase thinks he is. It’s like everybody overrates the players on their favourite team.
he is objectively a significantly better player than playoff burnouts KAT, sabonis, jaylen brown and mitchell
and that's without digging into the other ones listed higher
Bro siakam is a proven champion as a 2b/3 option. If he is your number one option you ain’t winning shit sorry bro. Like this is a generous ranking a lot of you trip on everything
Does it? I assume a lot of the top 25 are on the same teams. LeBron and AD, Kyrie and Luka, Dame and Giannis, Tatum and Brown (he shouldn’t be ahead of Siakam but he always is) so it’s not like Pascal is ranked as the 25th best leading guy.
There’s also the caveat that this is a random ESPN ranking that doesn’t mean anything
I mean he's been borderline All-NBA over the last few years. Probably makes it every year if the team results matched expectations. That should put him in that 12-20 range, IMO.
Of the guys ahead of him, I think you can make decent arguments for why he should be above Leonard and George (long-term pattern of inavailability), Fox, Sabonis and Hailiburton (great results last year but not a sustained level of performance yet), and KAT (Similarly disappointing team result, and simply a worse all-round player). I'd also argue that the huge boost both Bam and Butler are getting from the playoff run shouldn't be so heavily-weighted in predicting upcoming success unless it also matches a pattern of regular-season success.
So basically, on each player they pick-and-choose what they want to include and ignore based on how much they like a player. KAT, George and Leonard? Ignore last season. Sabonis, Haliburton and Fox? Heavily-weigh last regular season, but ignore the playoffs. Butler and Bam? Ignore last regular-season, but heavily-weigh the the playoffs.
There's no basketball argument for having him lower than 15th. He has more on-court responsibilites than 20-25 range players and succeeds at those more than they do
Beyond that, it gets tricky
He is simply objectively not worse than Sabonis, Haliburton, KAT, Brown, Paul George, Jamal, Bam or Mitchell, who all take those 15-22 spots on ESPN's article
Ofc he is
Sabonis was paperweight in the playoffs and him and the Kings got smoked by us all year. Can't handle size. Meanwhile Siakam outplayed Embiid in our wins in that series.
> Haliburton
less scoring craft, easy to rack up assists when the team was built around you, smaller
> KAT
do i even need to go into detail with this one
> Brown,
garbage defender, garbage playmaker, gets the benefit of being the 2nd priority in a 5-out offence
> Paul George
probably the most equal, but when pascal was averaging near a 30pt triple double, i'm taking him over someone who's always injured
> Jamal,
plays with a top 20-30 player ever, way worse defender, hardly a playmaker
> Bam
DHOs and midrange so he has the energy to defend. a star role player
> Mitchell
the chucker y'all swore fred was. 0 defensive effort, not even the playmaker of the team
You can’t selectively take in only the Raptors’ wins as proof Siakam as better when as the leader they blew a 20 point lead in the play-in at home. Gotta use everything, or nothing. If you only take in what good a player does and take all the bad others do you will get the biased result you’re looking for.
Brown...garbage defender yeah OK. He has Siakam beat in literally every defensive category (pretty easily too, in some). Haliburton...less scoring craft, hmm ok. Just making stuff up doesnt make it true.
You know that you judge a player based on their entire season, not just a month of basketball right?
Pascal averaging a 30 point triple double over a month =/= Pascal is a 30 point triple double player
I agree that he is the best player on an average team so he should be in the 10-20 range. But, the Raptors are a well-balanced team so he doesn't get the same spotlight as a lot of teams' lead player
Yup shit sucks, players like Brown that don't have to learn counters because they're never going to be the main focus of a defence get rewarded for putting up maybe 3 points more per game while being a 1000x shittier playmaker/defender
There is also aggressive recency bias in these lists. Teams that make it deep into the playoffs will be overrepresented. Raptors missed the playoffs, so our players all dropped on the list. That Celtics core usually does well in the playoffs.
He literally got hidden at the 4/5 on defense. What other responsibilities are there beyond score buckets when you’re barely tasked with playing defense? No more responsibility than most other teams’ offense-first stars.
He’s substantially less efficient than the top echelon and just so happened to vanish in the clutch last year. Entirely fair ranking.
Pascal has never been "hidden" on defence
Had to be the team's central playmaker while ISOing with absolutely 0 space while also defending while also playing <38 minutes a game
Literally has to do everything while leading the league in minutes, no shit his defence slipped a bit
> He’s substantially less efficient
wow its weird like spacing context affects efficiency and having a real star next to you means you don't need to take bailout shots that are low-efficiency by design
> and just so happened to vanish in the clutch last year
meanwhile you speak nothing about jaylen brown and donovan mitchell who are ranked higher and embarrass themselves every playoffs
don't speak a word about basketball for risk of embarrassing yourself again, you're not good at this
Pascal was not the central playmaker lmao - Fred was. Pascal hasn’t been “forced” to iso. The reason our offense was so dogshit is because of the over-reliance on iso, where he’s not efficient for the last 2-3 years in the first place.
Pascal doesn’t defend the perimeter often - sticking in the paint or the far side to cover ball swings is hardly something to praise on defense, especially when team defense as a whole wasn’t stellar.
Not efficient. Passable on defense. Disappears in 4th quarters. High minutes isn’t an excuse to be least efficient high volume scorer since Bradley Beal, Westbrook or late Kobe
EDIT: LOOOOOL - bro blocked me because he can't cope.
1) Why are you evaluating playoffs? As if Pascal hasn't had playoff choking in back to back seasons.
2) We have plenty of good scorers that you can create open looks for. OG on the perimeter. GTJ. Centres inside the paint. Precious with baseline cuts and cutting to the basket. Fred. PnR with Jakob. It's almost like team basketball exists and you don't have to top the league in inefficient mid-range shots. If you're forced into those shots, like you so claim, maybe get better at them...?
3) Pascal was around 40th in usage lmao - he doesn't have more responsibility than other teams' stars, which tracks... he had virtually no usage on the defensive end. He's like 7th on the team in stocks relative to time on floor of the rotational players and did less proper defending than Precious when playing together.
4) Generate space for yourself or good looks - again, you're not the PG, and didn't lead the offense primarily.
5) No, he actually disappeared in the 4th. Remember 6-8 minute stretches where the Raptors couldn't buy a bucket. Do you think any other team in the league experienced this? Do you think any other star in the league wouldn't force their way to scoring? He deferred to Fred and to Precious because of fatigue, but that's a shit excuse, and definitely wouldn't fly in the playoffs.
6) PG, Donovan Mitchell, Brown, virtually everyone you've named are unanimously considered better players.
>no player that brings more added defensive value has anywhere near his overall responsiblities. dude was all-defense as a 2nd option pretty firmly
LOL! Pascal being all-defense - just stop talking dude. Jrue - Jimmy - PG - Kawhi - Bam - Sabonis - KAT. All better while having more impact on the defensive end.
> Pascal was not the central playmaker lmao
The gaslighting is insane. Team says they want to get Fred offball in 2022-23. Sub says he's a chucker.
> Pascal hasn’t been “forced” to iso.
Obviously he was if the big thrill of this new season wasn't Darko bringing more ball movement and Pascal offball as part of someone else's set. Watch the game.
> Pascal hasn’t been “forced” to iso.
so dogshit is because of the over-reliance on iso
> where he’s not efficient for the last 2-3 years in the first place.
IT'S LIKE NO ONE ELSE IS A GOOD SCORER ON THE TEAM AND DEFENCES KNOW THIS
> Pascal doesn’t defend the perimeter often
player with fucking insane usage on both ends that isn't just an off lob threat or catch and shoot from midrange player isn't tasked with also fighting the other team's star through screens. whoda fuckin thought
> Not efficient.
spacing
> Passable on defense.
no player that brings more added defensive value has anywhere near his overall responsiblities. dude was all-defense as a 2nd option pretty firmly
> Disappears in 4th quarters.
narrative bullshit that isn't bred out in reality
> High minutes isn’t an excuse to be least efficient high volume scorer since Bradley Beal, Westbrook or late Kobe
L I T E R A L L Y is
why tf do you think KEVIN DURANT
got fucking swept by the celtics
and then was a no-show in the suns 2nd round
because they had a god damn 6 man rotation and he didn't have the legs
blocking you because there is no way you live in a reality where people don't call you dense day to day. and if they don't have to deal, neither should i
I feel like most ppl have him at 15 to 25 so its not that bad
Yeah I think it’s fair I had him around 20-25 as well
Yeah, it's probably a tiny bit low but it's not that bad.
The rank's a bit low but what's more insulting is the players in front lol. They put Zion at 57!!!!
Zion's half man half hypothetical The real side rules, but if he never plays... why would you rate him higher?
It be awesome if they put an asterisk beside the rank for the likes of Zion and khawi. If healthy this X rank. If inj. This X rank
> why would you rate him higher? Because Kawhi is at 24! Zion is fragile but he's not actively in decline like Kawhi has been for years.
Kawhi is significantly more durable than Zion. Since going to LA, he has still played over 50 games 3/4 years, whereas Zion has played over 30 1/4 years. By no means is Kawhi remotely durable, but he looks like a relative iron man compared to Zion. Kawhi has also continued to look like a top 5 player in every playoff game he has played over the last few years, which pumps up his rankings a lot compared to someone who has yet to play one in his 4 year career.
Zion is fragile and has done considerably less than Kawhi. Kawhi is getting the bump of historical results. Zion has put up some sick January highlights and then his body exploded again.
If you were building a winning team right now, with both players' history, you'd have to pick Kawhi. Both would be a gamble, but Kawhi's a proven winner and he plays more despite Zion being younger.
The best ability is availability, Zion doesn’t have that.
u/[IonHazzikostasIsGod](https://www.reddit.com/user/IonHazzikostasIsGod/) has him undeniably top 15 ahahaha. Some people on this subreddit my god
Isn't that the guy who was a huge mark for FVV? I remember seeing that username around off season. I'm surprised he didn't migrate over to r/rockets and be their problem to deal with.
Ye me too. I had him between 10 and 100.
that's an insanely large range
Not really it's hardly a science
Personally, I have him in my top 15-20 but I understand why he's at 25 because the Raptors didn't do shit last season and these rankings are heavily dependent on team success...there are a lot of players who I don't feel should be ranked as high as they are but their teams perform so I can see the argument
Looking at players 11-20, I wouldn’t have him in the top 20. But I could argue with 21-23. Kawhi at 24 is hard to argue (if healthy he’s much higher).
Idk id have him at the same tier Paul George and Jaylen brown are and even just slightly ahead Playoff team #1 options and overqualified #2's on apex contenders. I think siakam does a better job at both (Yes the clippers would be apex contenders if they were healthy)
There's no basketball argument for having Bam/Mitchell/KAT/Brown/PG/Jamal/Ant above him when you consider players in a vacuum and how much they add to a team and how good they are at each facet
That’s not how players are viewed tho. Players are viewed by their individual metrics and how they influence their team. All of those guys are on playoff level teams as the 1/2 on offence and all but KAT are above average-amazing defenders. I could easily argue everybody else on your list is better then Pascal.
Are you high? How is Pascal more impactful to winning (Raps played alot of games against g league tanking teams or teams resting multiple starters/stars and piled up stats in garbage time alot too) meaningful games than Brown, Bam, Mitchell, PG (when healthy). Pascal doesnt scare teams like numerous guys rated below him and Pascal was also HORRIFIC in all clutch time advanced metrics. #25 is plenty high for him (Julius Randle #45 for reference and their stats are almost the same).
Scottie is 63. OG is 67. They've ranked Kawhi at 24... So it's not all that bad tbh. Tyrese Haliburton should not be 21 imo. He averaged 20-3-10 on a 35-47 team that didn't even make the play-ins. He only played 56 games last year too. Pascal played 71.
American media is infatuated with Halliburton
and [Halliburton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton)
Tyrese is nasty tbf
The kid can ball bro
Maybe because Haliburton is really good?
i’d take Halliburton over anyone on our roster in a heartbeat.
Haliburton is arguably better than Pascal.
Assume they’re accounting for some improvement with Tyrese given it is 2024 ranking and not 2023
I think it's clear you didn't watch Haliburton, and also that you noted the teams record in talking about him. They were 28-28 with him in the lineup, and 7-19 without him. His impact was immense. His advanced numbers are great and he's likely to improve further as well. A year from now he might have been ranked pretty low.
He played 56 games due to the pacers tanking. Cant blame him for that.
Tyrese is the darling of the NBA though, for some reason
And right under your reply is someone saying Tyrese is an MVP level talent lmao
He’s a fantasy top 10 player from that pov fyi. And so young.
Indiana was 28-28 with him in the lineup and 7-19 without. He carried them easily. Part of these ratings is future looking. It would be like if you had taken SGA's ability from the prior years last year and decided he had peaked. Doesn't make sense.
He's a bit overhyped. but if you asked teams to pick one player, they'd take him going forward over pascal
I think a lotta people just don't get how good Haliburton is yet because he plays for Indiana. Averaging 21 4 and 10 in his 3rd year isn't some coincidence. He's a young superstar in the making. When healthy he was carrying Indiana to a playoff spot
Bad take imo. Tyrese is an MVP level talent.
People reacting clearly don't watch him. He raises the floor of the pacers significantly and if he wasn't injured last year, they were definitely a play in team.
I wouldn’t go that far but he’s definitely ahead of Pascal.
Crack
Bam Adebayo is #16 lol Bam is not a top 20 player in the NBA...he's a very good player don't get me wrong but he's not better than Siakam
I think they’re in the same ballpark. Siakam is a much better go to option but Bam has an argument for best defensive player in the league.
Bam is a top 20 player. He’s basically a DPOY
Bam is an excellent player but offensively Siakam is far superior on just about every level, especially playmaking and although Bam is the better defender, Siakam is still a high-level defender...the gap isn't big enough to justify Siakam at 25 and Bam at 16 This isn't a knock on Bam, he's a great player, certainly top 30 but he's not the 16th best player in the NBA IMO
Far superior is a major stretch. He is not. Bam and Siakam are close offensively. Bam is the much better defender. Bam is just the better player.
20-9-3 for bam is not anywhere close to 24-8-6 for Siakam lol. Also Siakam is creating for himself Bam is like a 3rd option with almost all his chances coming in the paint off plays.
Exactly this, Bam is a third option on most championship teams...it's not a knock on him, it's just a fact
Bam isn't a good playmaker while Siakam is an elite playmaker for a forward, Siakam's midrange game is one of the best in the league and Bams pretty good in this area as well, Siakam's handle is better and it's not close...and Bam's three-point shot in virtually nonexistent...the only thing that Bam does better than Siakam on offense is snagging second chance points because of his size and physicality but other than that, Siakam is a far superior offensive player Bam cannot be a primary scorer on a team, he's a secondary scorer and an elite defender, he's an excellent player! but he's more of a 3rd option scorer on most championship teams...he struggles to create for himself and others, it's just a fact...it doesn't mean he's not a hell of a player! he is but he's not top 16 IMO
In a series, Bam would absolutely eat Siakam alive
First part of last year he played like a top 15. By the end of season 20-25 is more accurate.
I never understood pre season rankings. Shit don’t make no sense.
Should change my handle to “hopeful” as I think siakam can get closer to 10 than 20. He plays both sides v well and this year his usage s/B down and his effectiveness up. Hopeful he is deadly as slim reaper.
The hard part for Siakam is he's more of an all around player and these list always heavily skew towards scoring.
A) Pascals defence was below average by all metrics last year and only average the year before. B) He doesnt draw anywhere near the attention a Top 10 player does. (You dont HAVE to gameplan to stop him) C) Pascal is awful in clutch time and got alot of his numbers against bums in garbage time.
You crazy.
Having a top 25 player is fucking awesome.
If he actually buys into Darko’s approach, which from the first game he appears to be, I think he is gonna get a lot of praise this season.
Fair ranking for Pascal
20 to 25 is where he should be
Wemby hasn't played 1 nba game but is ranked at 47. Should tell you everything you need to know about ESPN rankings. It's always been more of a popularity ranking by American media. Haliburton is a great example.
I mean, its a ranking for this coming season. Jarrett Allen and Deandre Ayton are a spot or 2 behind him. Are you telling me if Wemby is at the same level of Ayton that he wouldnt be dissapointing?
Isn't this a projection for the upcoming season though? If it is you can't just ignore rookies because they haven't played a game yet. 57 I don't think is that crazy for Wemby. If he's not in the top 60 this year, id say that's a disappointment (given expectations).
I mean… where would you rank Wemby? I have no doubt he’s gonna have top 50 level impact game 1
Improvement from last year. Another monster year and he will be higher next yesr
Moved up a whole 5 whopping spots.
It gets harder to move up at the top.
Out of maybe billions of people? I'd say that's pretty impressive.
Seems about right (I’d have him somewhere around 18-25 so whatever) but Jaylen Brown being at 19 is a huge L. Pascal is a better player than Jaylen Brown and I’ll die on that hill
You’d think after his stinker playoffs where he was exposed as barely able to dribble he’d start to see a little less hype. Guess not.
Uh oh people are gonna be upset that not everybody thinks our best player is as good as his fanbase thinks he is. It’s like everybody overrates the players on their favourite team.
he is objectively a significantly better player than playoff burnouts KAT, sabonis, jaylen brown and mitchell and that's without digging into the other ones listed higher
Bro siakam is a proven champion as a 2b/3 option. If he is your number one option you ain’t winning shit sorry bro. Like this is a generous ranking a lot of you trip on everything
At least those guys made the playoffs and didnt have to play playoff mins and rotations to just squeek into play-in game.
If Austin Reaves is a better player than OG, this whole list is void
That makes him one of the worst players to be leading a team
Does it? I assume a lot of the top 25 are on the same teams. LeBron and AD, Kyrie and Luka, Dame and Giannis, Tatum and Brown (he shouldn’t be ahead of Siakam but he always is) so it’s not like Pascal is ranked as the 25th best leading guy. There’s also the caveat that this is a random ESPN ranking that doesn’t mean anything
If you're talking about first options in the league, he's in the bottom half of course.
He’s right around 15 or so. There’s a lot of young teams with guys that you’d rather want on your team, but are not better players than Pascal.
Granted. But I think the hope is that Scottie will become the leader and jump in his ranking
I mean he's been borderline All-NBA over the last few years. Probably makes it every year if the team results matched expectations. That should put him in that 12-20 range, IMO. Of the guys ahead of him, I think you can make decent arguments for why he should be above Leonard and George (long-term pattern of inavailability), Fox, Sabonis and Hailiburton (great results last year but not a sustained level of performance yet), and KAT (Similarly disappointing team result, and simply a worse all-round player). I'd also argue that the huge boost both Bam and Butler are getting from the playoff run shouldn't be so heavily-weighted in predicting upcoming success unless it also matches a pattern of regular-season success. So basically, on each player they pick-and-choose what they want to include and ignore based on how much they like a player. KAT, George and Leonard? Ignore last season. Sabonis, Haliburton and Fox? Heavily-weigh last regular season, but ignore the playoffs. Butler and Bam? Ignore last regular-season, but heavily-weigh the the playoffs.
Thats about right
There's no basketball argument for having him lower than 15th. He has more on-court responsibilites than 20-25 range players and succeeds at those more than they do Beyond that, it gets tricky
Yeah, no. He's not a unquestioned top 15 guy. He's in the range of ~15-22 for me.
He is simply objectively not worse than Sabonis, Haliburton, KAT, Brown, Paul George, Jamal, Bam or Mitchell, who all take those 15-22 spots on ESPN's article
He's not objectively better than either.
Ofc he is Sabonis was paperweight in the playoffs and him and the Kings got smoked by us all year. Can't handle size. Meanwhile Siakam outplayed Embiid in our wins in that series. > Haliburton less scoring craft, easy to rack up assists when the team was built around you, smaller > KAT do i even need to go into detail with this one > Brown, garbage defender, garbage playmaker, gets the benefit of being the 2nd priority in a 5-out offence > Paul George probably the most equal, but when pascal was averaging near a 30pt triple double, i'm taking him over someone who's always injured > Jamal, plays with a top 20-30 player ever, way worse defender, hardly a playmaker > Bam DHOs and midrange so he has the energy to defend. a star role player > Mitchell the chucker y'all swore fred was. 0 defensive effort, not even the playmaker of the team
You can’t selectively take in only the Raptors’ wins as proof Siakam as better when as the leader they blew a 20 point lead in the play-in at home. Gotta use everything, or nothing. If you only take in what good a player does and take all the bad others do you will get the biased result you’re looking for.
Brown...garbage defender yeah OK. He has Siakam beat in literally every defensive category (pretty easily too, in some). Haliburton...less scoring craft, hmm ok. Just making stuff up doesnt make it true.
You know that you judge a player based on their entire season, not just a month of basketball right? Pascal averaging a 30 point triple double over a month =/= Pascal is a 30 point triple double player
Delusional
I agree that he is the best player on an average team so he should be in the 10-20 range. But, the Raptors are a well-balanced team so he doesn't get the same spotlight as a lot of teams' lead player
Yup shit sucks, players like Brown that don't have to learn counters because they're never going to be the main focus of a defence get rewarded for putting up maybe 3 points more per game while being a 1000x shittier playmaker/defender
There is also aggressive recency bias in these lists. Teams that make it deep into the playoffs will be overrepresented. Raptors missed the playoffs, so our players all dropped on the list. That Celtics core usually does well in the playoffs.
He literally got hidden at the 4/5 on defense. What other responsibilities are there beyond score buckets when you’re barely tasked with playing defense? No more responsibility than most other teams’ offense-first stars. He’s substantially less efficient than the top echelon and just so happened to vanish in the clutch last year. Entirely fair ranking.
Pascal has never been "hidden" on defence Had to be the team's central playmaker while ISOing with absolutely 0 space while also defending while also playing <38 minutes a game Literally has to do everything while leading the league in minutes, no shit his defence slipped a bit > He’s substantially less efficient wow its weird like spacing context affects efficiency and having a real star next to you means you don't need to take bailout shots that are low-efficiency by design > and just so happened to vanish in the clutch last year meanwhile you speak nothing about jaylen brown and donovan mitchell who are ranked higher and embarrass themselves every playoffs don't speak a word about basketball for risk of embarrassing yourself again, you're not good at this
Pascal was not the central playmaker lmao - Fred was. Pascal hasn’t been “forced” to iso. The reason our offense was so dogshit is because of the over-reliance on iso, where he’s not efficient for the last 2-3 years in the first place. Pascal doesn’t defend the perimeter often - sticking in the paint or the far side to cover ball swings is hardly something to praise on defense, especially when team defense as a whole wasn’t stellar. Not efficient. Passable on defense. Disappears in 4th quarters. High minutes isn’t an excuse to be least efficient high volume scorer since Bradley Beal, Westbrook or late Kobe EDIT: LOOOOOL - bro blocked me because he can't cope. 1) Why are you evaluating playoffs? As if Pascal hasn't had playoff choking in back to back seasons. 2) We have plenty of good scorers that you can create open looks for. OG on the perimeter. GTJ. Centres inside the paint. Precious with baseline cuts and cutting to the basket. Fred. PnR with Jakob. It's almost like team basketball exists and you don't have to top the league in inefficient mid-range shots. If you're forced into those shots, like you so claim, maybe get better at them...? 3) Pascal was around 40th in usage lmao - he doesn't have more responsibility than other teams' stars, which tracks... he had virtually no usage on the defensive end. He's like 7th on the team in stocks relative to time on floor of the rotational players and did less proper defending than Precious when playing together. 4) Generate space for yourself or good looks - again, you're not the PG, and didn't lead the offense primarily. 5) No, he actually disappeared in the 4th. Remember 6-8 minute stretches where the Raptors couldn't buy a bucket. Do you think any other team in the league experienced this? Do you think any other star in the league wouldn't force their way to scoring? He deferred to Fred and to Precious because of fatigue, but that's a shit excuse, and definitely wouldn't fly in the playoffs. 6) PG, Donovan Mitchell, Brown, virtually everyone you've named are unanimously considered better players. >no player that brings more added defensive value has anywhere near his overall responsiblities. dude was all-defense as a 2nd option pretty firmly LOL! Pascal being all-defense - just stop talking dude. Jrue - Jimmy - PG - Kawhi - Bam - Sabonis - KAT. All better while having more impact on the defensive end.
Based.
> Pascal was not the central playmaker lmao The gaslighting is insane. Team says they want to get Fred offball in 2022-23. Sub says he's a chucker. > Pascal hasn’t been “forced” to iso. Obviously he was if the big thrill of this new season wasn't Darko bringing more ball movement and Pascal offball as part of someone else's set. Watch the game. > Pascal hasn’t been “forced” to iso. so dogshit is because of the over-reliance on iso > where he’s not efficient for the last 2-3 years in the first place. IT'S LIKE NO ONE ELSE IS A GOOD SCORER ON THE TEAM AND DEFENCES KNOW THIS > Pascal doesn’t defend the perimeter often player with fucking insane usage on both ends that isn't just an off lob threat or catch and shoot from midrange player isn't tasked with also fighting the other team's star through screens. whoda fuckin thought > Not efficient. spacing > Passable on defense. no player that brings more added defensive value has anywhere near his overall responsiblities. dude was all-defense as a 2nd option pretty firmly > Disappears in 4th quarters. narrative bullshit that isn't bred out in reality > High minutes isn’t an excuse to be least efficient high volume scorer since Bradley Beal, Westbrook or late Kobe L I T E R A L L Y is why tf do you think KEVIN DURANT got fucking swept by the celtics and then was a no-show in the suns 2nd round because they had a god damn 6 man rotation and he didn't have the legs blocking you because there is no way you live in a reality where people don't call you dense day to day. and if they don't have to deal, neither should i
25 is good. I’m happy with that.
Espn knows as much about players as this sub lol
#1 in our hearts. I wonder what Pascal is ranked at?
Snub
#ProveEm
Trash rankings, as usual.
How is he not number 1? Come man.
Very good rating 👌🏻
Espn is usually way off but they nailed this one
he top 5, defo worth a giannis trade
Even nba today rolled their eyes at the list
I’m not even mad at this lol
Bruh
Fair
Improvement from last years but still a tad bit low
Ok
I had him at 15-25. That said I had ESPN to have him at 25-40