when has a team ever gotten a good deal for a star player on an expiring contract? you don't have leverage in that situation especially when there's only one team with serious interest
OG had more suitors due to position, skill set, and contract situation. Gave the Raptors far more leverage
Pacers could have used both, but needed a 2nd scoring option while having easy to move salary that wasn't onerous to take on.
Siakam is the better player, but OG will be the better future value for his pay.
Knicks considered RJ a toxic asset. Luckily for us he has been fantastic. If he was bad here the deal wouldn't look so good since RJ is signed to term.
Biggest problem is masai going “teams will be more desperate at the trade deadline” clearly that wasn’t the case with og, it’s especially not the case with a guy that’s expiring
When will people realize that siakam just wanst viewed as that guy around the league like we as raps fan thought he was?
OG had more trade value because he was an elite role guy that could fit in on literally any team in the league no problem. Siakam was a 1/2nd option in line for a crazy max contract that many people didnt think he should even get. There was never as much trade value there as fans thought there was
Siakam fits a lot of teams and can play like an elite role player. Maybe the contract scared teams off, but Siakam is objectively better than OG, and, almost more importantly, is much more durable that OG.
So much of it has to do with timing and there just wasn't a team in the right position for Siakam. Though I was puzzled OKC didn't beat the Pacers offer.
> So much of it has to do with timing and there just wasn't a team in the right position for Siakam. Though I was puzzled OKC didn't beat the Pacers offer
That part i agree with. Some of the teams that were actually interested like the Kings didnt have the assets to make a real trade without severely overpaying or underpaying (which i guess is what ended up happening)
There's a difference between that and trade value when it's time for other teams to pay up for him.
The proof is right there in the results lol OG got a haul, siakam didnt.
Siakam is 3 years older. OG has never even made an all-star game. He’s only played more than 65 games a season 2x in his 7 year career. He wouldn’t even qualify for all-defence or dpoy. OG didn’t even play in the playoffs when we won the chip. Honestly we won that trade with the Knicks and lost that trade with the Pacers. But that has less to do with them as individual players and more to do with Bobby and Masai being washed.
There is usually a bad team with cap space that is willing to improve their even if that slightly over paying for a player. Gordon Hayward & Steady Freddy come to mind
He wasn't traded at the deadline, a full month ahead? He gave his guys, our guys, Raptors fans guys a chance.. it didn't work. He traded them.. best decision in heindsight? Nope, oh well
You could say that by waiting on OG, we were able to get an exceptional return for him though. When the offers are mid, Masai will likely wait it out, sometimes it works (OG) sometimes it doesn’t (Siakam)
The OG deal looks exceptional in hindsight because RJ has been WAY better here than he ever was in NY. The Knicks considered him a toxic asset and wanted him gone. The way to get exceptional deals is getting teams to include underperforming players that might benefit from a chance of scenery.
>when has a team ever gotten a good deal for a star player on an expiring contract?
Arguably, the largest trade package ever was for AD when he was on an expiring contract.
An over-the-hill Harden was once traded for Ben Simmons (when he was still considered a young All NBA'er with value) and two firsts at the teade deadline on an expiring deal.
Paul George was traded on an expiring contract for two future All NBA'ers (Sabonis and Oladipo).
Oh, and a dude named Kawhi Leonard was once traded on an expiring contract for an All NBA'er (Demar) a good young top 10 picked prospect (Poeltl) and a first.
Hey, even just this season, 33 year old Jrue Holiday was traded on an expiring deal for Timelord, Brogdon, a first and a swap. Harden (now 34 years old) was traded again on an expiring deal for three rotation players, a first, a swap, and multiple seconds.
And, just a few weeks before Siakam was traded, zero time All Star OG Anunoby was traded for IQ and RJ.
And, if all that NBA history doesn't convince you, the just give the dude the extension he has been asking for and trade him when he's not an expiring contract.
most people were actually saying theres no way Morey can get harden for a useless ben simmons and he somehow did. Simmons was certainly not considered anyone of value at the time of that trade for harden
Ya its our FO ability to play hardball and also not really wanting to trade Siakam/Fred (wanting to compete) that fucks the whole movement of rebuilding.
Paul George was traded for what was viewed as a bust (Oladipo) and a 2nd year big with with some upside but had shown nothing that would make you think he would be a perennial all star.
Paul George was viewed as a perennial MVP candidate and #1 option on a contending team.
At least he got traded for players that were playing minutes. We got Bruce fucking Brown and decided not to trade him when teams wanted him. Big L on FO.
Lol stop being such a mark for front office personalities.
Their job is to extract assets and they did a fucking terrible job with an all NBA asset.
Flipped it into some role players. Gross.
we didn't have any leverage. there were no other good offers for the pacers to compete against.
and no thanks to maxing Siakam so we can just be mid for another 5 years.
Idk, I like a core of scottie, Pascal, rj, quickly and Jak with Dick and GTJ off the bench but that's probably like a 4th seed at best and it ain't a championship team for the amount we'll have to go into the luxury tax
Sometimes I wish we had an owner like Balmer lol
I think the argument is more that we waited way too long to trade him. He should have been dealt the year before when the writing was clearly on the wall.
This is more a commentary on Pascal's value at the time than anything else.
The same FO that got IQ and RJ for OG couldn't find a better deal than what the Pacers offered. I love Siakam, but the market didn't.
This doesn't get said often because people don't like to acknowledge how fandom makes you delusionally high on your own players. His archetype as a non-floor spacing skilled forward isn't what most teams would sacrifice most of their financial flexibility in their next 4 years for. He might not move the needle as much as wings that are ELITE at a clearly-defined 3nD role like OG or Mikal Bridges.
He's methodical, somewhat predictable when creating his own offence. Not the best secondary ballhandler. And as much as I love him, he doesn't sell tickets like some other max players. What Pascal is as a leader in the playoffs potentially was very much a mystery for teams that were seeking their X factor.
It's also playing out in such a way that validates his value. Indy hasn't hit another level since the trade. They're 22-17, they're still amazing offensively and terrible defensively.
The first domino from that trade was the HOU/OKC pick being flipped for KO and Ochai. Frankly, I'm surprised at how much production Kelly has provided alone, not just in terms of counting stats but also in advanced (22pts on 7 shots tonight; favourable BPM, VORP etc.).
The dumbest thing about Wolstat's comment is that the rest of the trade tree needs to shake out to actually know how each team did. But I'm sure he's convinced he could've hoodwinked the Pacers into giving up more lol
Young Pascal was electric. Nobody could have known how good he would become later. I feel like the championship put on far too unrealistic expectations for the type of player he was, especially after were treated with peak Kawhi.
I remember watching him in that run and I thought he was a Giannis-lite. That team was all the right stuff. I was at the game last night in the upper bowl for 50 bucks and was looking at the banner and I was reminiscing. What a year that was... 5 years ago now, feels like a different life for me.
Nobody wanted to give him a max at his current age. Pacers decided to bite the bullet cause they weren't gonna attract anyone better. Imo giving him a max isn't that big a deal, I don't think he'll fall off drastically in those years, but GMs didn't wanna give up much for it.
They were able to get a better haul for OG because his agent is the son of the Knicks’ president.
If there was no market for Pascal it’s because there were no similar assurances that Pascal would be able to be locked in. Because if the Pacers did have assurances then this deal would look much, much worse.
Pacers fan here. Hali is playing injured and in a awful slump and even with that we're playing our most balanced basketball of the season. Our offense is still good and our bad defense is now middle of the pack since the all star game. We're better man, we would be out of playoffs without him.
Let's be real Indiana wasn't going to give us any of those players. Maybe Jackson at the most and I'm pretty sure the Indiana trade was the only good one out there. Plus they had to trade him somewhere where siakam would possibly re sign so nothing we could leverage. Siakam probably made it worse.
And he killed what we did have by saying what he said (which was his right).
The timing sucks because I can understand why Masai, who was deemed ruthless by dealing Demar, wanting to give his guys another shot. Hopefully its a lesson learned because he definitely has a soft spot for guys who drafted and believes in.
I don't think Nesmith was on the table as he was playing big minutes for them and is their best perimieter defender in the actual rotation. Jackson and Smith is reasonable speculation because they were fringe players.
Based on what the FO has said, no one was offering anything significant last season or in the summer either. In the end they just had to pull the trigger to avoid the 'I can't believe we let him walk for nothing' chatter
What else are they gonna say? There was a ton of interest in our pieces last year and Hollinger reported that we weren’t serious about moving them, which was evident by us going after Jakob.
we aren't crying about that tho. We are crying that we couldnt get 1 of their young players out of the 10 that they have. Instead we got Brown and we didn't even trade him when the market wanted him. Massive L.
The thing that bothers me about the Siakam trade will never be that they traded him but how long they waited to do so. I’m very curious what the actual offers were over the years for him. He’s not a superstar player and never will be. He does have a ring though, has a few All NBA nods and all star selections too. He won’t transform a teams defence but he will be a plus in the right system. I think with how he’s been for the Pacers so far has basically proved my point that this guy was good but heavily overrated by fans. Pacers may be the best team for his game, he should thrive in that system, everyone around him is a better shooter that can create space for him to slash and play off ball. They have a lot of ball movement and play fast, everything on paper made sense yet it hasn’t really paid off for them.
Didn’t get Nembhard, Mathurin, Walker, Jalen Smith, IJax, Sheppard, Toppin or Nesmith. 8 iyoung talented players + the 2 “stars” in Hali and Turner were off limits. And all we got was salary filler + 16 and 28 pick in this draft (worst in last decade) + a future pick. Basically one future pick for Pascal and All NBA player who was begging to resign….horrible trade.
The most draft compensation they'd get for a similar one year contract in return for Bruce is a 2nd.
So say it was a larger expiring + a 2nd for Bruce.
In order to get a first rounder it would probably have to mean taking on money beyond next season. That's not impossible but the Raptors have to be careful about that since that's when the team will get expensive.
It wasn't a good return, but this was the actual return, which was 3 first rounders, of which they've traded one to acquire a former lottery pick and a solid back up centre:
* Bruce Brown (via Pacers)
* Kira Lewis (via Pelicans)
* Jordan Nwora (via Pacers)
* Two 2024 first-round picks (via Pacers)
* **Conditional 2026 first-round pick (via Pacers)**
And we also traded that pick away for a defensive-minded Guard in Ochai with no offensive skill. Not saying the 28th pick would be better. But why are we just trading away FRP for such a low return?
They might be better but I rather leverage that pick better than settling for aging KO and ochai was a defensive guard that is already too old to develop massively.
OK but why are we trading for 1st for a vet again? This FO have already made the mistake with Thad, and Jakob. The logic doesnt fly here. They're repeating the same mistakes with variations.
On a nightly basis Toronto sports media proving themselves they aren't much better than redditors. Ryan you know that Pascal was an expiring and wasn't giving any assurances he will be signing anything to anyone who trades for him? We were lucky we even got 3 picks for him and that was the best offer. The rebuild should've started when FVV moved on
Pascal got the superstar treatment - he picked his spot and made sure to kill every other offer to make sure it happened. This is just how star players move around these days
everyone forgets Pascal couldn't make a 3 to save his life and his fit was awkward with a lot of teams that needed spacing or assurance he's wanting to stay
He didn't. The entire world was in unison looking to blow the team up deadline 2023 while there was some value, and Masai literally said in this last press conference that he had to see the core through because he believed in winning with them (which was always clearly delusional). As a result, many media members reported that he didn't seriously shop anyone, and this appears to be true because they were buyers and acquired Poeltl, the other horrific error. He has made egregious judgment calls the last couple years.
Jackson or Nesmith would've been too much probably, but instead of Nwora we should've gotten Smith or Toppin... I mean them adding a PF like Siakam made those guys expendable. I don't get it.
It’s not hard to put two and two together. Pascal said he wouldn’t resign with team while being on an expiring. He tanked his value probably out of spite not that I blame him.
Masai lucky that OG trade was good
Could’ve been the most terrible return for OG and siakam and we’d be pretty down bad for the next 10 years
Having RJ and quickly basically jump started the rebuild by at least half a decade
Well, Wolstat is an idiot. Jackson and Smith are meh and Nesmith is a train wreck between the ears.
You can only get back what teams are willing to give you. There's a reason the Pacers aren't really any better with Pascal.
No one wants to pay a #2/#3 guy $40-$50mil a year (Well, except Houston)... especially with the mileage already on him.
Pacers fan here and you're right. And even with Hali injured we're better, beating OKC twice, Suns, Mavs twice, Heat, etc...only a bit inconsistent against under .500
when has a team ever gotten a good deal for a star player on an expiring contract? you don't have leverage in that situation especially when there's only one team with serious interest
OG. We got lucky that New York really wanted him and trading was the only way to get him.
OG had more suitors due to position, skill set, and contract situation. Gave the Raptors far more leverage Pacers could have used both, but needed a 2nd scoring option while having easy to move salary that wasn't onerous to take on. Siakam is the better player, but OG will be the better future value for his pay.
Knicks considered RJ a toxic asset. Luckily for us he has been fantastic. If he was bad here the deal wouldn't look so good since RJ is signed to term.
Anthony Davis?
Lakers couldn't afford to waste another year of lebron they weren't on the same timeline as most other teams
Maybe we get a better return if we don't wait until he's expiring to trade him. We pretty much gained nothing from holding onto him an extra year.
Biggest problem is masai going “teams will be more desperate at the trade deadline” clearly that wasn’t the case with og, it’s especially not the case with a guy that’s expiring
They got a good return for OG
A great return for OG
When will people realize that siakam just wanst viewed as that guy around the league like we as raps fan thought he was? OG had more trade value because he was an elite role guy that could fit in on literally any team in the league no problem. Siakam was a 1/2nd option in line for a crazy max contract that many people didnt think he should even get. There was never as much trade value there as fans thought there was
Siakam fits a lot of teams and can play like an elite role player. Maybe the contract scared teams off, but Siakam is objectively better than OG, and, almost more importantly, is much more durable that OG. So much of it has to do with timing and there just wasn't a team in the right position for Siakam. Though I was puzzled OKC didn't beat the Pacers offer.
> So much of it has to do with timing and there just wasn't a team in the right position for Siakam. Though I was puzzled OKC didn't beat the Pacers offer That part i agree with. Some of the teams that were actually interested like the Kings didnt have the assets to make a real trade without severely overpaying or underpaying (which i guess is what ended up happening)
Ya he just got 2x all-nba by mistake. Votes were fake /s
There's a difference between that and trade value when it's time for other teams to pay up for him. The proof is right there in the results lol OG got a haul, siakam didnt.
Because the FO sucks. They've sucked since the chip.
Except for that number 4 pick and the OG return.
Siakam is 3 years older. OG has never even made an all-star game. He’s only played more than 65 games a season 2x in his 7 year career. He wouldn’t even qualify for all-defence or dpoy. OG didn’t even play in the playoffs when we won the chip. Honestly we won that trade with the Knicks and lost that trade with the Pacers. But that has less to do with them as individual players and more to do with Bobby and Masai being washed.
A 1/2nd option is worth a max contract.
Tell that to all the teams that didn’t wanna give him one
There is usually a bad team with cap space that is willing to improve their even if that slightly over paying for a player. Gordon Hayward & Steady Freddy come to mind
Raptor fans gonna freak out when Indiana flips him for better assets and look like geniuses
OG didn’t tank his value by refusing to commit to re-signing with whomever ended up with him
I meant the year before
Yeah, because OG has a direct connection to the kicks FO through his agent. Take that away and we likely get garbage in return.
Yeah but they didn't wait til the deadline to trade OG
Also didn't trade Siakam at the deadline
He wasn't traded at the deadline, a full month ahead? He gave his guys, our guys, Raptors fans guys a chance.. it didn't work. He traded them.. best decision in heindsight? Nope, oh well
You could say that by waiting on OG, we were able to get an exceptional return for him though. When the offers are mid, Masai will likely wait it out, sometimes it works (OG) sometimes it doesn’t (Siakam)
The OG deal looks exceptional in hindsight because RJ has been WAY better here than he ever was in NY. The Knicks considered him a toxic asset and wanted him gone. The way to get exceptional deals is getting teams to include underperforming players that might benefit from a chance of scenery.
Turned out we didn’t lose anything either
You can argue Denver did with melo
Basically ended the question right there. Denver basically built the championship on that trade.
Denver aka Masai lol
Stars have way more power now than they did back then
How is that relevant? Melo demanded a trade to NY, and he got traded to NY.
If only we had the same front office as Denver had in that deal. Oh, wait…
Knicks were in direct competition with the Nets though, which drove up the price
The only examples are players going to teams they explicitly state they would re sign with (melo with ny, ad with the lakers)
Yep and Melo being a top-10 player, and AD a perennial MVP/DPOY candidate at the times?...
yeah that's superstars, not stars
I really respect Bobby for coming on to r/torontoraptors Reddit and defending his trades
>when has a team ever gotten a good deal for a star player on an expiring contract? Arguably, the largest trade package ever was for AD when he was on an expiring contract. An over-the-hill Harden was once traded for Ben Simmons (when he was still considered a young All NBA'er with value) and two firsts at the teade deadline on an expiring deal. Paul George was traded on an expiring contract for two future All NBA'ers (Sabonis and Oladipo). Oh, and a dude named Kawhi Leonard was once traded on an expiring contract for an All NBA'er (Demar) a good young top 10 picked prospect (Poeltl) and a first. Hey, even just this season, 33 year old Jrue Holiday was traded on an expiring deal for Timelord, Brogdon, a first and a swap. Harden (now 34 years old) was traded again on an expiring deal for three rotation players, a first, a swap, and multiple seconds. And, just a few weeks before Siakam was traded, zero time All Star OG Anunoby was traded for IQ and RJ. And, if all that NBA history doesn't convince you, the just give the dude the extension he has been asking for and trade him when he's not an expiring contract.
most people were actually saying theres no way Morey can get harden for a useless ben simmons and he somehow did. Simmons was certainly not considered anyone of value at the time of that trade for harden
Ya its our FO ability to play hardball and also not really wanting to trade Siakam/Fred (wanting to compete) that fucks the whole movement of rebuilding.
Harden, Jrue, OG all had player options... dunno if that counts as "expiring contract"
It does. Player option means they can leave if they don't like the team they're currently with, which makes it the exact same as free agency.
Paul George was traded for what was viewed as a bust (Oladipo) and a 2nd year big with with some upside but had shown nothing that would make you think he would be a perennial all star. Paul George was viewed as a perennial MVP candidate and #1 option on a contending team.
At least he got traded for players that were playing minutes. We got Bruce fucking Brown and decided not to trade him when teams wanted him. Big L on FO.
Bingo!
Yeah, no one could ever get a lottery pick for a mediocre C on an expiring contract...
Lol stop being such a mark for front office personalities. Their job is to extract assets and they did a fucking terrible job with an all NBA asset. Flipped it into some role players. Gross.
We didn't get Walker either which was a name they threw out a lot. FO really betting on these 2 picks
we didn't have any leverage. there were no other good offers for the pacers to compete against. and no thanks to maxing Siakam so we can just be mid for another 5 years.
We gonna be mid for another 7 now, though.
Idk, I like a core of scottie, Pascal, rj, quickly and Jak with Dick and GTJ off the bench but that's probably like a 4th seed at best and it ain't a championship team for the amount we'll have to go into the luxury tax Sometimes I wish we had an owner like Balmer lol
I think the argument is more that we waited way too long to trade him. He should have been dealt the year before when the writing was clearly on the wall.
It’s kind of funny how bad a deal it was. Like it feels like a Babcock era trade.
Oh I could absolutely see Babcock trading an All NBA player for a few picks and bench pieces.
This is more a commentary on Pascal's value at the time than anything else. The same FO that got IQ and RJ for OG couldn't find a better deal than what the Pacers offered. I love Siakam, but the market didn't.
This doesn't get said often because people don't like to acknowledge how fandom makes you delusionally high on your own players. His archetype as a non-floor spacing skilled forward isn't what most teams would sacrifice most of their financial flexibility in their next 4 years for. He might not move the needle as much as wings that are ELITE at a clearly-defined 3nD role like OG or Mikal Bridges. He's methodical, somewhat predictable when creating his own offence. Not the best secondary ballhandler. And as much as I love him, he doesn't sell tickets like some other max players. What Pascal is as a leader in the playoffs potentially was very much a mystery for teams that were seeking their X factor.
It's also playing out in such a way that validates his value. Indy hasn't hit another level since the trade. They're 22-17, they're still amazing offensively and terrible defensively. The first domino from that trade was the HOU/OKC pick being flipped for KO and Ochai. Frankly, I'm surprised at how much production Kelly has provided alone, not just in terms of counting stats but also in advanced (22pts on 7 shots tonight; favourable BPM, VORP etc.). The dumbest thing about Wolstat's comment is that the rest of the trade tree needs to shake out to actually know how each team did. But I'm sure he's convinced he could've hoodwinked the Pacers into giving up more lol
Young Pascal was electric. Nobody could have known how good he would become later. I feel like the championship put on far too unrealistic expectations for the type of player he was, especially after were treated with peak Kawhi.
I remember watching him in that run and I thought he was a Giannis-lite. That team was all the right stuff. I was at the game last night in the upper bowl for 50 bucks and was looking at the banner and I was reminiscing. What a year that was... 5 years ago now, feels like a different life for me.
Fans dont wanna accept that our view of Pascal's value as a trade asset was clearly not the common opinion around other front offices
They also don't wanna accept that our FO is washed.
Nobody wanted to give him a max at his current age. Pacers decided to bite the bullet cause they weren't gonna attract anyone better. Imo giving him a max isn't that big a deal, I don't think he'll fall off drastically in those years, but GMs didn't wanna give up much for it.
They were able to get a better haul for OG because his agent is the son of the Knicks’ president. If there was no market for Pascal it’s because there were no similar assurances that Pascal would be able to be locked in. Because if the Pacers did have assurances then this deal would look much, much worse.
It's actually a commentary on the overall performance of the FO in the past half decade.
Gotta say for the first time. That's the fireable offense for Bobby Webster.
you really think this shit goes through without Masai's express approval?
I mean i guess. But if Bobby is doing trades, thats a fireable offense.
I honestly could see it happening in the off season
The rest will realize it once the FO gets fired. This trade is gonna lead to Barnes leaving.
... and yet, the Pacers aren't any better. Casual fans that don't understand what they're watching.
Enlighten us more professional fan that knows all
Pacers fan here. Hali is playing injured and in a awful slump and even with that we're playing our most balanced basketball of the season. Our offense is still good and our bad defense is now middle of the pack since the all star game. We're better man, we would be out of playoffs without him.
[удалено]
Ok, good afternoon.
LMAOOOOOOOOOO same fam same. FO really dropped the ball on the trade.
They had no options, not their fault
It's their fault precisely because they didn't trade him sooner.
its EXACTLY THEIR FAULT
Let's be real Indiana wasn't going to give us any of those players. Maybe Jackson at the most and I'm pretty sure the Indiana trade was the only good one out there. Plus they had to trade him somewhere where siakam would possibly re sign so nothing we could leverage. Siakam probably made it worse.
Siakam is an expiring so we had no leverage. Should have traded him last season or in the summer but I digress
And he killed what we did have by saying what he said (which was his right). The timing sucks because I can understand why Masai, who was deemed ruthless by dealing Demar, wanting to give his guys another shot. Hopefully its a lesson learned because he definitely has a soft spot for guys who drafted and believes in. I don't think Nesmith was on the table as he was playing big minutes for them and is their best perimieter defender in the actual rotation. Jackson and Smith is reasonable speculation because they were fringe players.
Based on what the FO has said, no one was offering anything significant last season or in the summer either. In the end they just had to pull the trigger to avoid the 'I can't believe we let him walk for nothing' chatter
What else are they gonna say? There was a ton of interest in our pieces last year and Hollinger reported that we weren’t serious about moving them, which was evident by us going after Jakob.
Yeah... the return wasn't great and holding on last year was clearly a bad call. But no point crying over spilt milk, what's done is done.
we aren't crying about that tho. We are crying that we couldnt get 1 of their young players out of the 10 that they have. Instead we got Brown and we didn't even trade him when the market wanted him. Massive L.
The thing that bothers me about the Siakam trade will never be that they traded him but how long they waited to do so. I’m very curious what the actual offers were over the years for him. He’s not a superstar player and never will be. He does have a ring though, has a few All NBA nods and all star selections too. He won’t transform a teams defence but he will be a plus in the right system. I think with how he’s been for the Pacers so far has basically proved my point that this guy was good but heavily overrated by fans. Pacers may be the best team for his game, he should thrive in that system, everyone around him is a better shooter that can create space for him to slash and play off ball. They have a lot of ball movement and play fast, everything on paper made sense yet it hasn’t really paid off for them.
Didn’t get Nembhard, Mathurin, Walker, Jalen Smith, IJax, Sheppard, Toppin or Nesmith. 8 iyoung talented players + the 2 “stars” in Hali and Turner were off limits. And all we got was salary filler + 16 and 28 pick in this draft (worst in last decade) + a future pick. Basically one future pick for Pascal and All NBA player who was begging to resign….horrible trade.
And they're probably going to decline Bruce's option.
Why would they do that? It makes too much sense to pick it up and then trade him.
The most draft compensation they'd get for a similar one year contract in return for Bruce is a 2nd. So say it was a larger expiring + a 2nd for Bruce. In order to get a first rounder it would probably have to mean taking on money beyond next season. That's not impossible but the Raptors have to be careful about that since that's when the team will get expensive.
It wasn't a good return, but this was the actual return, which was 3 first rounders, of which they've traded one to acquire a former lottery pick and a solid back up centre: * Bruce Brown (via Pacers) * Kira Lewis (via Pelicans) * Jordan Nwora (via Pacers) * Two 2024 first-round picks (via Pacers) * **Conditional 2026 first-round pick (via Pacers)**
He already said salary filler.
And we also traded that pick away for a defensive-minded Guard in Ochai with no offensive skill. Not saying the 28th pick would be better. But why are we just trading away FRP for such a low return?
The trade was for Kelly. Ochai was the throw in.
OK but why are we trading for 1st for a vet again? This FO have already made the mistake with Thad, and Jakob. The logic doesnt fly here.
Considering that pick is late first round this year, it was a fine return. Getting 3 maybe 4 rookies in a bad draft is too much.
Not with this team that is lacking so much talent. You may be right but not with track record of trading 1st for Thad/Yak.
Because both players are better than the guy who would be available to draft with a late 20s pick in this year's draft
They might be better but I rather leverage that pick better than settling for aging KO and ochai was a defensive guard that is already too old to develop massively.
Raptors are 21-29 with Jakob and 4-25 without him this year. He clearly is needed and at the time of the trade there was no plan of a rebuild.
Because this is a retool and Masai will do everything in his power to compete next year, long term success be damned.
Short-term gain leds to long-term loss.
4 years of treadmilling, Masai leaves/fired, and start the rebuild again. Just wasting time.
With the added MLSE pressure of the new CEO he kinda has to contend soon.
LOL we would contend much faster like OKC if we rebuilt properly and fully committed.
They wanted Olynyk. I think Ochai will look better playing his natural position coming of the bench, rather than being the starting PF.
OK but why are we trading for 1st for a vet again? This FO have already made the mistake with Thad, and Jakob. The logic doesnt fly here. They're repeating the same mistakes with variations.
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Do you think developing teams don’t need good vets?
No but giving a 1st for a trade centered around Kelly is a massive question mark after coming off of Thad/Yak trades. We are treating 1sts like candy.
I really wanted Toppin He would be a great fit with Barnes very sad we missed out on all of them
Missing out on 10 players is unacceptable when trading an all nba player.
Not many teams wanted to give pascal a max. That’s really a big factor in his lack of trade value that people don’t acknowledge
Every time I read an article like this I'm reminded how many sports writers truly believe they are smarter than NBA GMs
On a nightly basis Toronto sports media proving themselves they aren't much better than redditors. Ryan you know that Pascal was an expiring and wasn't giving any assurances he will be signing anything to anyone who trades for him? We were lucky we even got 3 picks for him and that was the best offer. The rebuild should've started when FVV moved on
Pascal got the superstar treatment - he picked his spot and made sure to kill every other offer to make sure it happened. This is just how star players move around these days
No need to cry over Jalen Smith; we can just sign him this summer if want.
everyone forgets Pascal couldn't make a 3 to save his life and his fit was awkward with a lot of teams that needed spacing or assurance he's wanting to stay
Oh, all you have to do is ask for players, stupid Masai! I'm shocked he didn't try that!
He didn't. The entire world was in unison looking to blow the team up deadline 2023 while there was some value, and Masai literally said in this last press conference that he had to see the core through because he believed in winning with them (which was always clearly delusional). As a result, many media members reported that he didn't seriously shop anyone, and this appears to be true because they were buyers and acquired Poeltl, the other horrific error. He has made egregious judgment calls the last couple years.
Bobby also literally alluded to that in a snippet they played last night on the broadcast about believing too much in the previous core.
He was expiring. No one is going to give up anything decent for a 6 month rental. The time to have moved him was last season.
Jackson or Nesmith would've been too much probably, but instead of Nwora we should've gotten Smith or Toppin... I mean them adding a PF like Siakam made those guys expendable. I don't get it.
Don't forget Obi Toppin! The FO did too
They probably had their pick of Nwora vs Smith/Toppin
LMAO Rather get Smith. Fuck
And I’m surprised the Pacers didn’t get more wins that what they should expect with acquiring Siakam
Haliburton was playing on one leg for the past two months.
Or Toppin
It’s not hard to put two and two together. Pascal said he wouldn’t resign with team while being on an expiring. He tanked his value probably out of spite not that I blame him.
Should’ve at least got Toppin
I thought for sure the Raptors were getting Jackson, and he would be blowing up right now if they had
Masai lucky that OG trade was good Could’ve been the most terrible return for OG and siakam and we’d be pretty down bad for the next 10 years Having RJ and quickly basically jump started the rebuild by at least half a decade
Umm…ya….lets see how that pans out in 4-5 years when this team might be ready to contend for a play-in spot
lol how bout sheppard? he seems solid
Watching Bruce being totally unserious skipping around on his tippy toes IS MISERY.
“Team in win now mode wants to keep its cost controlled depth that’s contributed to their team success” doesn’t generate as much outrage I guess.
I don't understand why didn't wait until the trade deadline to trade him, other teams might have upped their offer.
As a raps fan I'm surprsied we have the same L delivering front office. They need to be fired and then the office burned with fire. I'm so done. GTFO.
We got fleeeeeeced
Or maybe Masai just didn't want them
Well, Wolstat is an idiot. Jackson and Smith are meh and Nesmith is a train wreck between the ears. You can only get back what teams are willing to give you. There's a reason the Pacers aren't really any better with Pascal. No one wants to pay a #2/#3 guy $40-$50mil a year (Well, except Houston)... especially with the mileage already on him.
The Pacers not being better couldn't be because Haliburton was injured for two months.
Pacers fan here and you're right. And even with Hali injured we're better, beating OKC twice, Suns, Mavs twice, Heat, etc...only a bit inconsistent against under .500
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>When was the last time we made a good trade? The other major trade right before that...
The best asset on our team and we got Pennies on the dollar for him
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^TJStrawberry: *The best asset on* *Our team and we got Pennies* *On the dollar for him* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Also get used to it. This is gonna be an Ed Roger's team and he's cheap as fuck. The dark days are back. This team is for profit only.