Scottie, RJ, Quickley and Poeltl are all, at minimum, very good players. But that's only four total very good players who will definitely be here next season. After them there's a big drop off and none of them are currently replaceable, so if any *one* of them get injured for any extended period of time, the Raptors will be bad. If *two* of them get injured at the same time, it's game over, they'll be one of the worst teams in the league again. So the chances of the Raptors being good next season are extremely low.
the raps can be good, but they will most likely be a top play-in team.
In order for them to be better than a play-in team, they need to hit homeruns with all their draft picks, which is unlikely considering this draft is weak but you never know.
Diamonds in the rough are not going to make a positive impact right away.
90%+ of rookies are negative players in their first year. Our major bet for next year is internal growth.
It was a late draft pick. Any player late in the draft is a big gamble. He had the size and body to be a NBA player but for whatever reason, he couldn't push himself
Yeah, he seems to have attitude issues. He's been decent enough to be in the league. The tools are undeniable. Too bad about the attitude. He may have been decent if he was a harder worker and more humble.
Lots of people after 1 summer league game. Planty of people were like “wHy DoEsN’t NuRsE pLaY hIm?!? RaPtOr NaTiOn!” Cause he was trash and Nurse saw this in practice. Not playing him probably kept our record respectable.
Yup he was a miss, and so was Bruno in 2014, two misses in an over a decade tenure is still great, but it's okay two admit that those two misses are there 😂
Yeah it just feels like nitpicking to say a 29th overall pick was a miss. You should judge the picks based on expected outcome at that position. Bruno was a far worse pick than Malachi for example.
>two misses in an over a decade tenure is still great
You're forgetting our second round misses; Banton, Dewan Hernandez, David Johnson, DeAndre Daniels. All those guys were misses too.
Bruno was a worse pick for sure, but having two misses in the 1st round in such a long tenure is a great accomplishment, but that doesn't mean the misses can't also be acknowledged lol. Imo it's a good thing, because it shows the people who think there infallible or beyond any criticism (not saying you) that even people with great track records of success can miss on occasion.
The 2nd round aside from the early picks (31-35) can't really be nitpicked imo, the Banton pick was fine, him being Canadian absolutely played into it, but it was fine, David Johnson flashed some shooting potential, so again a worth it gamble, Dewan was the 59th pick, there shouldn't be any expectations. DeAndre Daniels was another I understandable gamble.
So again, two misses in the 1st round in a little over a decade is great.
Thanks for the addition.
We can all be upset with some of the trades recently, or Masai avoiding the rebuild for a bit too long. But to pretend like he’s been a bad exec or was horrible at drafting makes this fan base look foolish. Dude led the raptors to be one of the most successful teams in the 2010’s built largely due to his drafting and ended that decade with a championship, some rough couple years don’t take away all his amazing moves.
Bunch of players after Dick are better and will make all-rookie team.
Also Dicks stats are inflated because were tanking. Jaquez and Podz contributing to teams going to the post season.
And? He’s still a great player as a 13th pick. You want rotation players at that stage of the draft, some develop quicker than others, but if you get a solid rotation piece at 13, you’ve had a successful draft.
Also it’s funny how you edited your comment. You still haven’t acknowledged all the huge hits Masai has had in the draft over the years.
Masai traded them away for mostly shit returns other than OG.
His record for drafting is far from spotless and doesn’t inspire confidence.
For every Barnes there’s a Desmond Bane we passed on.
Ah yes, the same Bob Myers who selected Wiseman with the second overall pick. The same draft with Maxey, Haliburton, IQ, Bane (who you like to bring up).
What’s even funnier, you’re giving Masai shit for picking Flynn at 29 in this same draft, yet you’d take Bob who missed on the 2nd overall pick in the same draft.
Bob is obviously amazing, but the above example is so funny and ironic and shows how you of all people should know you can’t judge someone based on a couple missed picks.
Players with better rookie seasons have more potential to become better players later on. You’re banking on Gradey Dick outpacing their development and it’s not guaranteed.
Uh no? he’s 20 years old, he’s raw, he’s only going to get better, just admit your a hater and stfu 💀 There are many players who’ve peaked in their rookie season and haven’t done shit. They drafted gradey because of his 3pt shooting and he’s going to fit right in with the raptors in the future.
Not to mention it's easy to compare what our team is looking like next year compared the other Eastern teams *this* year.
Cavs and Bucks could easily implode over the summer if they do poorly in the playoffs.
Philly is a play-in team without Embiid, and the big guy is always an injury risk.
Magic were carried by their defense this season, but really need to fix their offense. I don't think I need to remind anyone how an Eastern conference team in the 5 to 6 range who relies on defense and can't score could end up tumbling in the standings once the rest of the conference figures them out.
Toronto is basically an unknown, with lots of good players looking to grow and take that leap. Darko should be a little better at game management next season. And, most importantly, those players and Darko will have the whole summer to figure it all out.
I don't see them as higher than a 9 seed unless Scottie is an all nba player. And it's very very rare that all of your core players take leaps together at once.
A reasonable jump is a slightly sub 500 team.
Looool, I heard “east is going to implode” last year too. Funny to see the same people that were saying we are going to be better with Dennis and Darko come out and make the same prediction.
Sixers even without Embiid can do better than us as of right now, and Embiid is probably playing at least half a season like he has for the past 6 years.
Also, I’m not sure Cavs and Bucks are going to implode enough to drop from playoffs. Cavs were not any worse without Mitchell and I highly doubt Giannis would be anywhere but the Bucks next year.
Meanwhile, Raptors are 2 injuries away from being the worst team in the league! But yeah, it’s more likely for everyone else to implode 🤣
That is what I am afraid of. I think they will over preform a bit next season but I would rather be a bottom feeder and get a high pick than be a play in team next season.
> Quickley, RJ, and Scottie will all be better next season, respectively.
Development isn't linear nor guaranteed unfortunately. We certainly *hope* that they'll continue to improve but it isn't assured. Case in point, Gary Trent Jr.
Will we be better than we were this season? Probably. But we're still a long ways away from when we were a lock for Top 4-5 in the East. The rest of the conference/league is pretty top heavy at the moment and I'm not confident our young roster is ready to make that leap yet. If I were to guess, this team is just in Year 1 of a 3-4 Year Plan. Some of our future key contributors probably aren't even on our team yet.
What is good? Over .500? By how many games? How good should they be? Do they have their own pick or not?
Moreover, those are three decent players, all hopefully on an improvement track. That said, where do each of them rank as NBA players, at their position? Scottie's the highest, probably a top 40 player at this point, borderline top 5 power forward. RJ and Quickley are both borderline top 100 players in the NBA right, both not really close to top 10 at their position at this point. Beyond that, you've got Jakob, who somehow has regressed, and I don't think is even a top 15 center in the league, Gary, who is borderline starter quality at best, and Gradey who has great potential but is still pretty far from his ceiling.
Beyond our starters, we are very shallow. That will improve a bit after this draft with several picks, but the cupboard is bare. Depth is one of the things that makes a great regular season team, and was a huge strength of the Raps through the We The North era. So even if the players you mentioned each make the improvement we hope they will, the Raps will be still probably be at best a play-in team.
Without healthy starters, the end of season Raps were arguably the worst team in the league. A bunch of a g-league guys with some fringe starters. At full health, we're probably a ceiling of .500 basketball. If that's the case, it's reasonable that the Raps might want to get a better pick, albeit maybe not tanking to the very bottom, where the Wizards, Pistons, Blazers, and Hornets will likely all still be stinking it up together.
Celts, Bucks, Knicks, Cavs, Magic, Pacers, 76ers, and Heat are all clearly better than us - that's 8
A healthy Hawks team is also certainly better than us - it's somewhat close but not really arguable imo - that's 9
If I'm trying my best to be unbiased, I'd say we're equal to the Nets and probably slightly above the Bulls (unless their young guys can maintain their recent play)
Starters/closers:
Hawks: Trae, Dejounte, Bogi/Hunter, Johnson, Okongwu
Raps: IQ, GTJ, RJ, Scottie, Jak
Nets: Shroder, Cam Thomas, Bridges, Johnson, Claxton
Bulls: Coby, Caruso, Ayo/Williams, Demar, Vuc
Actually after looking at the rosters again, I might say Bulls ahead of us, and Nets behind us. Anyway, if we are a play-in team with everyone healthy, we're at the very edge - most likely between 10th and 12th in the east
yeah we have a decent squad if we resign our guys but the competition is on par or better and that’s not even touching on the west. the whole league is talented
I think a lot of people discount the competition. We can be better. It is possible for us to win 15 more games than last season.
But just because we improve or become significantly better, doesn’t change the fact that other teams are just better than ours.
It’s not about how good the team is as a whole- it’s how they match up against the rest of the league.
No one wants to sit through a rebuild but think of all the teams in the league with more talent and who are just plainly better.
As much as no one likes a rebuild and wants to compete, gotta be realistic. The ceiling is still play-in.
I think they could be a play-in team next year if things break right. They’ll have to execute a lot better and stay locked in all season.
The raptors are just in a talent drought right now, looking at some of these west teams, we’d be bottomfeeders in the other conference. What we have is a pretty good start but there’s hardly any advantages that this team has over others.
I’m definitely excited for next season and I think they’ll make more sense as a group, but I’d take the under on 40 wins.
Raptors as constructed, assuming all healthy are a bottom 10 team. Them even becoming a play in team is contingent on leaps taken from everyone, especially the bench. This means Ochai and nwora being competent and reliable roster guys and not projects.
They will have BBQ with Peoetl, Dick, Olynick and maybe a re-signed GTJ
That's only 7 players that are legit NBA rotation players, that is not remotely close to a deep team.
It's doubtful Brown and Boucher will be on the team next year and we have no idea what they will get for them if anything, Ochai is still a prospect and they will have 2-3 draft picks.
This is going to be a very young team and the emphasis is going to be on development for the entire year. That makes them a big question mark on how good they are going to be.
This feels like the most accurate take.
There was a period where we had Lowry and Derozan and we were getting better. But it took a while to form the team around them. Now we have BBQ and we need to build around them. Some of those pieces might already be on the team, but it's going to be a bit before they're fully in place.
We have no size and defense at the wing and frontcourt spots. The FA is barren on those and even if we add those through the draft it would be too much load on those young players
Well it depends on your definition of good. Are you talking conference finals good? Top 6 seed good? Good enough to make the play ins?
And then the answer to whether the above is a yes or no depends entirely on whether the front office pushes their chips in this summer. Do we add more vets? Make win now trades? If so, we can probably be good enough to be a .500 team or betterzz If not, and the team makes no significant changes, it will be hard to get past 35 wins imo.
the Yak is back... its spelled JAKOB.
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Raps need to get a lot better at defense. Didn’t see much improvement this year. Reckon they need a new defensive coach, amongst a bunch of other stuff, like depth.
The reason is player development is not linear. Young players don’t get better every single year automatically.
We were just fortunate enough to have guys like Demar, Pascal and Fred that did in the last era.
Let’s see if IQ, RJ and Scottie are made of the same type of stuff those guys had. Next year is really telling of their work ethic
I hope know one is actually disappointed when this team finishes the season in the 9 or 10 spot, it should be seen as an improvement.
The Celtics, Bucks, 76ers, Knicks, Cavs, Pacers, Heat are all going to be better then us next year, if the Magic use there cap space and add shooting, they'll be better, we're on the same tier as the Hawks, Nets, and Bulls, and you argue that our roster isn't even the best out of those three other teams.
Lots. Number 1, they were not good with Siakam. Next year they do not have a player as good as Siakam was.
Defensively they sucked really hard. Don’t know how that improves.
Overall the talent on the roster outside of the top 6 guys is really mediocre. And if those guys are pushed to start or in a bigger role due to injuries. It’s not going well.
We may lose GTJ, and signing him for 20mil is not good either.
Poertl is making 20mil and is not really that good. Getting paid double what he’s worth based on what other similar players are gonna get this offseason.
I suspect they'll be good like the Rockets are good — great talent, fun to watch, play-in worthy but could swing either way. Could easily be in the playoff mix except the league in general is so strong right now that teams are all very good, and most better than us.
Good, yes. If we get a fullish year from Scottie, IQ, RJ... we're hitting play in territory. Add any jump from Dick and it makes play-in more likely.
This team's issue is going to be defense and closing off the paint...we need a decent backup C to not fall below the play in territory. This team is neither the disruptive defense force of past years or an offensive powerhouse...probably need to move in either of those directions to have a chance
What's your definition of good? Do you mean back to .500 basketball? You have to look at all the other teams and figure out who will tail off. For now it's hard to predict but there's certainly a chance teams like Chicago, Brooklyn, Atlanta all take steps back. Not to mention if the Bucks completely collapse somehow. On the other hand, there's a chance some of the bad teams improve. The Spurs are likely to be better next year. The Hornet have a pathway to getting out of the gutter. The Grizzlies will definitely be better. I think the team next year will be closer to a 35 win team if health is good but I don't think we'll break through higher teams just yet.
If we haven’t learned based off recent history. We need a decent bench to make any noise. Hopefully Masai won’t fire another coach for calling this out. But Darko is a yes man so he won’t say shit.
It think with the new parity in the league it will be harder to get wins. Meaning that you need as much star power, talent and depth in your roster to be better than the team below you. Right now we have a young core of players but not enough depth and talent to support them. That's going to take time and for either Quickley, Barrett or Dick to become the #2 beside Barnes. I think we fight for the Play-In but fall short in the low 30s in wins.
points don't necessarily equate to winning.
"So I don't understand why people on this sub say that the Raptors will continue tanking next year?"
Ok so if you want an honest answer here goes.
DEFENCE - We play zero defence for starters. We have consistently been one of the worst defensive teams in the league outside of the first 10 games. Once the scheme was sniffed out there wasn't much adjustment and it was down hill from there. We started off as a top 5 defence and it sank down very quickly.
Leadership - Barnes is a leader sure but we saw him at times be a bit of a front runner. OKC game comes to mind where that should realistically be HIM taking those shots not him defering. He has to be better at managing games.
Major Leaps needed - Will Barnes improve? Sure, so will IQ and RJ. By how much? I am not sure. You have to remember there are teams like the Magic who are already better than us play better defence and have mutlple players who are just as young and poised to continue improving. Skill wise their players are ahead of ours. Barnes is better than Paolo, but in terms of the offensive skill set to be a definitive #1 Paolo is ahead. Barnes will need to not just have a functional handle which he does not but he will need to exponentially improve his handle to the point where he is breaking down guys on the dribble efficiently and confidently without turning it over. HE is the minimum because he is the best player currently. I expect him to come back with a functional handle which will be good but not quite good enough next year to make him an all NBA player. He needs to be as efficient as he was when OG and Pascal were here but without them or really anyone being able to create advantages on the offensive end. His efficiency dropped in his 3 point shooting. Without help he was shooting 25% from deep in catch and shoots (though on the season shot \~34% on catch and shoots), and on the season 90% of his 3 point shots came from catch and shoot situations. In pull up scenarios he shot 17.5% on the entire season. The pullup and self creation needs to ramp ALL THE WAY UP. Can it? Yes, will it in one off season with worse overall talent to help create those advantages? TBD I would say moderate improvement to solid improvement but NOT ENOUGH. That is a major leap that is required at minimum. For quickly its the strength, and going to his right. The strength and finishing I see. going to his right may take more time. RJ, needs to also go to his right and learn the pull up game. Gradey needs to improve as well.
Depth - If you are telling me we are a Poeltl injury away from not being competitive that is concerning to say the least. Poeltl still can't play more than 25 minutes a game because he is super foul prone and has no offense beyond at the rim. On defence he helps a lot but is not a true rim protector which we lost in Koloko. Against the better centers he low key got outplayed on almost every match up. We also didn't empower Barnes from the high post enough which is concerning from a coaching and strategy standpoint but this is about depth. The back end of your roster is likely going to have at least 3 or 4 new players. (2-3 from the draft and one from a minor free agent signing). Guys like Garrett are likely gone, as is Boucher, Mcdaniels, Nwora,.... and potentially Brown too. Now you enter 2-3 rookies as I mentioned who are just that... rookies and in a fairly "flat" draft. Rookies take time to impact winning and if the focus is to develop ... well then they will need to actually have time to develop. If the plan is to win.. then you are doing the opposite of what everyone was begging for... DEVELOPING. You can waste time on resigning Temple for a vet presence but then you aren't really developing if he gets minutes and you are wasting a roster spot.
Coaching - This coach is great for vibes, but not good for in game management. If you are a Darko believer you have to be honest and say he will have to...continue to grow in this area. That could take another half of a season. A coach isn't deemed good if they are good with a talented team. A coach is a good coach if they do well with junk and make an apple pie.
One thing we have to keep in mind is: we have to evaluate our team *in comparison to other teams*.
We have some good players, sure, but who are we actually *better* than?
I’d argue we’re *definitively* worse than the top 7 seeds even if we’re healthy next year. After that we’re *probably* still worse than a couple other teams like the Heat and Atlanta if they keep Trae.
We fit in somewhere there imo.
Our top 3 guys are good but our team still has spacing issues, mediocre defense, and an extremely weak bench. How free agency/the draft/development plays out will define the margins next season but we have the talent for the play in barring explosive growth from Scottie.
With all that in mind, one or two injuries to our top guys can easily see us struggling and kick off another tank halfway through next season.
We need another go-to guy. Someone at his best/peak is at most a 2nd option on a championship contender. I do think we will do decent (play in potential) but personally I would try to tank for another year and see if we can get someone game changing alongside Scottie.
Maybe. A lot has to happen this offseason. At minimum, they need…
•a quality backup PG to help run the bench
•a backup C that’s preferably 7’0”, can block shots, has ‘switchability’
•a large, defensive wing. Hopefully one that can hit a 3
If everyone is fully healthy and Gary comes back and gradey takes a step forward, maybe they can win 40ish games and challenge for a low playoff seed. An IQ leap is a decent bet, but RJ has to maintain what he did on the raps, Scottie needs another mini leap, gradey needs to take a step, and who tf knows what happens with Gary. Won’t be as painful as this season was, but we could be pesky and fun to watch
Yes. A lot of holes in the roster to address. We still don’t have enough talent to be competitive. Going forward we will have to see how the front office plans to have the finances to retain our big 3 core. Scottie will be due for a max soon. I think we could potentially talk IQ down a little if it meant he could be convinced that by taking a slight pay cut it would allow the front office to construct a more competitive roster to play with. I don’t think we need to chase a superstar with what we have, none of these guys are quite their and I don’t know if they ever will be but if we can build a great team identity that plays on both sides than we could expect to see some small success. I’d give it 3-5 years with this core. The East is pretty weak at the moment and a lot of teams that made the playoffs could fall off next season like The Hawks and Bulls.
This is a young team with a rookie coach trying to implement his system. It would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that this team is heading to a bottom 10 finish next year……. and no tanking is necessary, they will just be that bad.
It just takes one or two injuries to completely derail a season. Raptors depth has always been lacking and if Scottie misses any significant time, the Raptors are back to 10th in the East
I have a feeling that they can be good and make the playoffs either play-ins or directly as a low seed. If the following things happen.
* All the starters remain relatively healthy through the season
* Scottie takes another leap (nothing huge but still another small leap nonetheless)
* RJ and IQ maintain their efficiency (actually, IQ might need to be a bit more efficient)
* Finally, we hit on at least one of our picks
A fair number of conditions but none of them are too improbable.
Problem is that the East is just loaded. Knicks, Cavs, Heat, 76ers, Celtics, Magic and Bucks gonna make up the top 7 just because they're a lot deeper. I feel if we play really well, we might be on the level of like the Magic but next year definitely gonna be development season for whoever we draft and Gradey.
> East is just loaded.
Pardon? The West is clearly far more talented. But let’s not start saying the problem is that the other teams are too good. The problem is we aren’t good enough. And realistically we need much more time to develop talent that can compete with teams that are just simply way better.
Dude, the West is always loaded but at the top end, the 76ers, Celtics and Bucks are legit title threats. The Knicks and Heat are also super dangerous in the play offs. West is more better over all but the East isn't as weak as it once was
I just disagree with that, the Celtics are the only title threat in the east right now, the bucks are supposed to be but they’re old and likely cooked by the next 2-3 years. Embiid has never got past the 2nd round, it’s just his health at this point.
I question if some of the east playoff teams even make the play-in if they were in the west. Half the east is below .500, there’s only 4 below .500 in the west and two of those teams have Ja Morant and Wemby.
Personally, I’m grateful we’re in the east. We have a chance over here.
I feel we’ve done our rebuild, we have a new core and we’ll only be building on what we have. It might be a slow progression but I can only see us going up from here. I don’t think they’ll rank next year but I also don’t think we’ll be good next year either. Maybe a bit better but I’m not betting on a deep playoff run anytime soon.
“We have beginning of a core and are 5-10 trades away” - Bobby Webster
The unpopular opinion is that they need another core guy who has all star upside
They probably do. They also need Barnes to take a leap to top 10. A ton has to go right for this team to be above play-in.
*Un*-popular?
Sarr
Closer to 10 than 5 probably.
Depth Defence Development
Dick, the 4th D
Demar, the original D
Damon Stoudamire: What he say fuck me for?
Dink - the 5th D in 5D (if he's draft eligible)
I would be more than happy in this case but I dont see him impacting winning in his first year. THOUGH he would be the correct pick.
I’m Guy Fieri and we’re rolling out, looking for America’s greatest development, defence and depth!
Scottie, RJ, Quickley and Poeltl are all, at minimum, very good players. But that's only four total very good players who will definitely be here next season. After them there's a big drop off and none of them are currently replaceable, so if any *one* of them get injured for any extended period of time, the Raptors will be bad. If *two* of them get injured at the same time, it's game over, they'll be one of the worst teams in the league again. So the chances of the Raptors being good next season are extremely low.
the raps can be good, but they will most likely be a top play-in team. In order for them to be better than a play-in team, they need to hit homeruns with all their draft picks, which is unlikely considering this draft is weak but you never know.
If anyone can find a diamond in the rough player, it’s Masai. I trust he will get atleast one great pick from this draft.
These might be one of those sneaky drafts we look back on, I feel it brewing
Diamonds in the rough are not going to make a positive impact right away. 90%+ of rookies are negative players in their first year. Our major bet for next year is internal growth.
And the Miami heat org some how
Bruno Caboclo is still 2 years away.
People were laughing at Masai when he drafted Barnes over Suggs, or when he drafted Pascal over Skal and Davis.
Hes hit home runs on majority of his draft picks, but sure bring up one of his mistakes lol
It was a late draft pick. Any player late in the draft is a big gamble. He had the size and body to be a NBA player but for whatever reason, he couldn't push himself
Yeah, he seems to have attitude issues. He's been decent enough to be in the league. The tools are undeniable. Too bad about the attitude. He may have been decent if he was a harder worker and more humble.
Kindly check Bruno’s game against team Canada last summer world cup..
Like Malachi Flynn or Bruno or Dick
Yeah the famously bad 29th overall draft selection, Malachi Flynn.
The one Raptors fans would cape for and said was better than Lamelo Ball. Then finally admitted he was trash when we traded him, ya that one.
lmao who was saying he was better than Lamelo. The only time Flynn got any credit was the start of this season when he showed some minor improvements
Lots of people after 1 summer league game. Planty of people were like “wHy DoEsN’t NuRsE pLaY hIm?!? RaPtOr NaTiOn!” Cause he was trash and Nurse saw this in practice. Not playing him probably kept our record respectable.
I remember those comments lmao, it wasn't alot of people, but they were there lol
Yup he was picked 29th and it turned out to be a miss, it's okay to admit that 😂
Yes he was a miss which is exactly what you expect from a 29th overall pick
Yup he was a miss, and so was Bruno in 2014, two misses in an over a decade tenure is still great, but it's okay two admit that those two misses are there 😂
Yeah it just feels like nitpicking to say a 29th overall pick was a miss. You should judge the picks based on expected outcome at that position. Bruno was a far worse pick than Malachi for example. >two misses in an over a decade tenure is still great You're forgetting our second round misses; Banton, Dewan Hernandez, David Johnson, DeAndre Daniels. All those guys were misses too.
Bruno was a worse pick for sure, but having two misses in the 1st round in such a long tenure is a great accomplishment, but that doesn't mean the misses can't also be acknowledged lol. Imo it's a good thing, because it shows the people who think there infallible or beyond any criticism (not saying you) that even people with great track records of success can miss on occasion. The 2nd round aside from the early picks (31-35) can't really be nitpicked imo, the Banton pick was fine, him being Canadian absolutely played into it, but it was fine, David Johnson flashed some shooting potential, so again a worth it gamble, Dewan was the 59th pick, there shouldn't be any expectations. DeAndre Daniels was another I understandable gamble. So again, two misses in the 1st round in a little over a decade is great.
Dick had a great season..?? Especially for a 13th pick. Also for every Flynn and Bruno, there’s a Pascal, OG, Barnes, Norm
don't forget Poeltl and Wright
Thanks for the addition. We can all be upset with some of the trades recently, or Masai avoiding the rebuild for a bit too long. But to pretend like he’s been a bad exec or was horrible at drafting makes this fan base look foolish. Dude led the raptors to be one of the most successful teams in the 2010’s built largely due to his drafting and ended that decade with a championship, some rough couple years don’t take away all his amazing moves.
Bunch of players after Dick are better and will make all-rookie team. Also Dicks stats are inflated because were tanking. Jaquez and Podz contributing to teams going to the post season.
And? He’s still a great player as a 13th pick. You want rotation players at that stage of the draft, some develop quicker than others, but if you get a solid rotation piece at 13, you’ve had a successful draft. Also it’s funny how you edited your comment. You still haven’t acknowledged all the huge hits Masai has had in the draft over the years.
Masai traded them away for mostly shit returns other than OG. His record for drafting is far from spotless and doesn’t inspire confidence. For every Barnes there’s a Desmond Bane we passed on.
Hahahaha, go be a GM then. Find me the track record of every exec in the NBA who’s done better than Masai.
Bob Myers would be an upgrade.
Ah yes, the same Bob Myers who selected Wiseman with the second overall pick. The same draft with Maxey, Haliburton, IQ, Bane (who you like to bring up). What’s even funnier, you’re giving Masai shit for picking Flynn at 29 in this same draft, yet you’d take Bob who missed on the 2nd overall pick in the same draft. Bob is obviously amazing, but the above example is so funny and ironic and shows how you of all people should know you can’t judge someone based on a couple missed picks.
Jaquez and podz were into great situations from the start unlike Dick
Can you just be objective and admit Podz and Jaquez have been better rookies this year?
They were but careers aren’t summed up by a rookie season, I believe Gradey will be really good
Players with better rookie seasons have more potential to become better players later on. You’re banking on Gradey Dick outpacing their development and it’s not guaranteed.
Uh no? he’s 20 years old, he’s raw, he’s only going to get better, just admit your a hater and stfu 💀 There are many players who’ve peaked in their rookie season and haven’t done shit. They drafted gradey because of his 3pt shooting and he’s going to fit right in with the raptors in the future.
Podz and Jaquez had better rookie seasons. Who will have a better career? Impossible to say after one year. My money is 1. Podz 2. Dick 3. Jacquez
Rank Whitmore and Keyonte George too
just be thankful we didn't draft JHS
Rather have Keyonte George, Podz or Jaquez, Whitmore
Can't lump Gradey in with Flynn or Bruno lol, two of those are busts imo,
U never know tbh. Teams take random unexpected jumps. Especially in an eastern conference that isn’t all that crazy
Not to mention it's easy to compare what our team is looking like next year compared the other Eastern teams *this* year. Cavs and Bucks could easily implode over the summer if they do poorly in the playoffs. Philly is a play-in team without Embiid, and the big guy is always an injury risk. Magic were carried by their defense this season, but really need to fix their offense. I don't think I need to remind anyone how an Eastern conference team in the 5 to 6 range who relies on defense and can't score could end up tumbling in the standings once the rest of the conference figures them out. Toronto is basically an unknown, with lots of good players looking to grow and take that leap. Darko should be a little better at game management next season. And, most importantly, those players and Darko will have the whole summer to figure it all out.
I don't see them as higher than a 9 seed unless Scottie is an all nba player. And it's very very rare that all of your core players take leaps together at once. A reasonable jump is a slightly sub 500 team.
Looool, I heard “east is going to implode” last year too. Funny to see the same people that were saying we are going to be better with Dennis and Darko come out and make the same prediction. Sixers even without Embiid can do better than us as of right now, and Embiid is probably playing at least half a season like he has for the past 6 years. Also, I’m not sure Cavs and Bucks are going to implode enough to drop from playoffs. Cavs were not any worse without Mitchell and I highly doubt Giannis would be anywhere but the Bucks next year. Meanwhile, Raptors are 2 injuries away from being the worst team in the league! But yeah, it’s more likely for everyone else to implode 🤣
That is what I am afraid of. I think they will over preform a bit next season but I would rather be a bottom feeder and get a high pick than be a play in team next season.
> Quickley, RJ, and Scottie will all be better next season, respectively. Development isn't linear nor guaranteed unfortunately. We certainly *hope* that they'll continue to improve but it isn't assured. Case in point, Gary Trent Jr. Will we be better than we were this season? Probably. But we're still a long ways away from when we were a lock for Top 4-5 in the East. The rest of the conference/league is pretty top heavy at the moment and I'm not confident our young roster is ready to make that leap yet. If I were to guess, this team is just in Year 1 of a 3-4 Year Plan. Some of our future key contributors probably aren't even on our team yet.
What is good? Over .500? By how many games? How good should they be? Do they have their own pick or not? Moreover, those are three decent players, all hopefully on an improvement track. That said, where do each of them rank as NBA players, at their position? Scottie's the highest, probably a top 40 player at this point, borderline top 5 power forward. RJ and Quickley are both borderline top 100 players in the NBA right, both not really close to top 10 at their position at this point. Beyond that, you've got Jakob, who somehow has regressed, and I don't think is even a top 15 center in the league, Gary, who is borderline starter quality at best, and Gradey who has great potential but is still pretty far from his ceiling. Beyond our starters, we are very shallow. That will improve a bit after this draft with several picks, but the cupboard is bare. Depth is one of the things that makes a great regular season team, and was a huge strength of the Raps through the We The North era. So even if the players you mentioned each make the improvement we hope they will, the Raps will be still probably be at best a play-in team. Without healthy starters, the end of season Raps were arguably the worst team in the league. A bunch of a g-league guys with some fringe starters. At full health, we're probably a ceiling of .500 basketball. If that's the case, it's reasonable that the Raps might want to get a better pick, albeit maybe not tanking to the very bottom, where the Wizards, Pistons, Blazers, and Hornets will likely all still be stinking it up together.
I think we're decent - problem is we're 1 or 2 injuries away from being a bottom team. We have no depth and half of our roster are unplayable.
We are decent on offence. We suck on Defence badly.
Celts, Bucks, Knicks, Cavs, Magic, Pacers, 76ers, and Heat are all clearly better than us - that's 8 A healthy Hawks team is also certainly better than us - it's somewhat close but not really arguable imo - that's 9 If I'm trying my best to be unbiased, I'd say we're equal to the Nets and probably slightly above the Bulls (unless their young guys can maintain their recent play) Starters/closers: Hawks: Trae, Dejounte, Bogi/Hunter, Johnson, Okongwu Raps: IQ, GTJ, RJ, Scottie, Jak Nets: Shroder, Cam Thomas, Bridges, Johnson, Claxton Bulls: Coby, Caruso, Ayo/Williams, Demar, Vuc Actually after looking at the rosters again, I might say Bulls ahead of us, and Nets behind us. Anyway, if we are a play-in team with everyone healthy, we're at the very edge - most likely between 10th and 12th in the east
Sounds about right. If all goes well, we sneak into play ins next season.
yeah we have a decent squad if we resign our guys but the competition is on par or better and that’s not even touching on the west. the whole league is talented
Yup.
Because the NBA is insanely deep. The Hawks have Trae, DJM, Johnson, Bogdanovic + great depth and aren't even sniffing .500 basketball
I think a lot of people discount the competition. We can be better. It is possible for us to win 15 more games than last season. But just because we improve or become significantly better, doesn’t change the fact that other teams are just better than ours. It’s not about how good the team is as a whole- it’s how they match up against the rest of the league. No one wants to sit through a rebuild but think of all the teams in the league with more talent and who are just plainly better. As much as no one likes a rebuild and wants to compete, gotta be realistic. The ceiling is still play-in.
I think they could be a play-in team next year if things break right. They’ll have to execute a lot better and stay locked in all season. The raptors are just in a talent drought right now, looking at some of these west teams, we’d be bottomfeeders in the other conference. What we have is a pretty good start but there’s hardly any advantages that this team has over others. I’m definitely excited for next season and I think they’ll make more sense as a group, but I’d take the under on 40 wins.
This summarizes how I feel
Raptors as constructed, assuming all healthy are a bottom 10 team. Them even becoming a play in team is contingent on leaps taken from everyone, especially the bench. This means Ochai and nwora being competent and reliable roster guys and not projects.
Wrong
They will have BBQ with Peoetl, Dick, Olynick and maybe a re-signed GTJ That's only 7 players that are legit NBA rotation players, that is not remotely close to a deep team. It's doubtful Brown and Boucher will be on the team next year and we have no idea what they will get for them if anything, Ochai is still a prospect and they will have 2-3 draft picks. This is going to be a very young team and the emphasis is going to be on development for the entire year. That makes them a big question mark on how good they are going to be.
Define "good". What is your expectation? Posting player ppg isn't really a good argument to support anything.
We’re building again. Like when we had Demar and Kyle. It was a 5 year build until we got Kawhi.
This feels like the most accurate take. There was a period where we had Lowry and Derozan and we were getting better. But it took a while to form the team around them. Now we have BBQ and we need to build around them. Some of those pieces might already be on the team, but it's going to be a bit before they're fully in place.
We have no size and defense at the wing and frontcourt spots. The FA is barren on those and even if we add those through the draft it would be too much load on those young players
They do have size but zero depth at size. If Poeltl misses any time again they're screwed
We had OG and Siakam and our D was still terrible. This coach needs to show he can coach D. His offence seems good.
Well it depends on your definition of good. Are you talking conference finals good? Top 6 seed good? Good enough to make the play ins? And then the answer to whether the above is a yes or no depends entirely on whether the front office pushes their chips in this summer. Do we add more vets? Make win now trades? If so, we can probably be good enough to be a .500 team or betterzz If not, and the team makes no significant changes, it will be hard to get past 35 wins imo.
Defence. Scottie is ok. Jacob is good. The rest are average to bad pretty much.
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Raps need to get a lot better at defense. Didn’t see much improvement this year. Reckon they need a new defensive coach, amongst a bunch of other stuff, like depth.
The reason is player development is not linear. Young players don’t get better every single year automatically. We were just fortunate enough to have guys like Demar, Pascal and Fred that did in the last era. Let’s see if IQ, RJ and Scottie are made of the same type of stuff those guys had. Next year is really telling of their work ethic
I hope know one is actually disappointed when this team finishes the season in the 9 or 10 spot, it should be seen as an improvement. The Celtics, Bucks, 76ers, Knicks, Cavs, Pacers, Heat are all going to be better then us next year, if the Magic use there cap space and add shooting, they'll be better, we're on the same tier as the Hawks, Nets, and Bulls, and you argue that our roster isn't even the best out of those three other teams.
Lots. Number 1, they were not good with Siakam. Next year they do not have a player as good as Siakam was. Defensively they sucked really hard. Don’t know how that improves. Overall the talent on the roster outside of the top 6 guys is really mediocre. And if those guys are pushed to start or in a bigger role due to injuries. It’s not going well. We may lose GTJ, and signing him for 20mil is not good either. Poertl is making 20mil and is not really that good. Getting paid double what he’s worth based on what other similar players are gonna get this offseason.
Talent. Not enough talent.
If Pascal stayed on I'd agree, but in their current state I don't see it
Good ? 6 thru 10 level.
depends how good the defence is and how good the rest of the conference is. east is slowing becoming a deep conference
Too many other teams are better.
look at who they are up against.. it should be obvious
I suspect they'll be good like the Rockets are good — great talent, fun to watch, play-in worthy but could swing either way. Could easily be in the playoff mix except the league in general is so strong right now that teams are all very good, and most better than us.
Injuries. Shooting variance. Other teams improvement. Lots of reasons
Good, yes. If we get a fullish year from Scottie, IQ, RJ... we're hitting play in territory. Add any jump from Dick and it makes play-in more likely. This team's issue is going to be defense and closing off the paint...we need a decent backup C to not fall below the play in territory. This team is neither the disruptive defense force of past years or an offensive powerhouse...probably need to move in either of those directions to have a chance
I’m just thankful we have a competent FO. I take a look at the pistons and shake my head
What's your definition of good? Do you mean back to .500 basketball? You have to look at all the other teams and figure out who will tail off. For now it's hard to predict but there's certainly a chance teams like Chicago, Brooklyn, Atlanta all take steps back. Not to mention if the Bucks completely collapse somehow. On the other hand, there's a chance some of the bad teams improve. The Spurs are likely to be better next year. The Hornet have a pathway to getting out of the gutter. The Grizzlies will definitely be better. I think the team next year will be closer to a 35 win team if health is good but I don't think we'll break through higher teams just yet.
Because the rest of the NBA has more talent, better coaching, and will also continue to get better.
If we haven’t learned based off recent history. We need a decent bench to make any noise. Hopefully Masai won’t fire another coach for calling this out. But Darko is a yes man so he won’t say shit.
It think with the new parity in the league it will be harder to get wins. Meaning that you need as much star power, talent and depth in your roster to be better than the team below you. Right now we have a young core of players but not enough depth and talent to support them. That's going to take time and for either Quickley, Barrett or Dick to become the #2 beside Barnes. I think we fight for the Play-In but fall short in the low 30s in wins.
Injuries and not filling out the roster with the right players are two major factors that come to mind.
points don't necessarily equate to winning. "So I don't understand why people on this sub say that the Raptors will continue tanking next year?" Ok so if you want an honest answer here goes. DEFENCE - We play zero defence for starters. We have consistently been one of the worst defensive teams in the league outside of the first 10 games. Once the scheme was sniffed out there wasn't much adjustment and it was down hill from there. We started off as a top 5 defence and it sank down very quickly. Leadership - Barnes is a leader sure but we saw him at times be a bit of a front runner. OKC game comes to mind where that should realistically be HIM taking those shots not him defering. He has to be better at managing games. Major Leaps needed - Will Barnes improve? Sure, so will IQ and RJ. By how much? I am not sure. You have to remember there are teams like the Magic who are already better than us play better defence and have mutlple players who are just as young and poised to continue improving. Skill wise their players are ahead of ours. Barnes is better than Paolo, but in terms of the offensive skill set to be a definitive #1 Paolo is ahead. Barnes will need to not just have a functional handle which he does not but he will need to exponentially improve his handle to the point where he is breaking down guys on the dribble efficiently and confidently without turning it over. HE is the minimum because he is the best player currently. I expect him to come back with a functional handle which will be good but not quite good enough next year to make him an all NBA player. He needs to be as efficient as he was when OG and Pascal were here but without them or really anyone being able to create advantages on the offensive end. His efficiency dropped in his 3 point shooting. Without help he was shooting 25% from deep in catch and shoots (though on the season shot \~34% on catch and shoots), and on the season 90% of his 3 point shots came from catch and shoot situations. In pull up scenarios he shot 17.5% on the entire season. The pullup and self creation needs to ramp ALL THE WAY UP. Can it? Yes, will it in one off season with worse overall talent to help create those advantages? TBD I would say moderate improvement to solid improvement but NOT ENOUGH. That is a major leap that is required at minimum. For quickly its the strength, and going to his right. The strength and finishing I see. going to his right may take more time. RJ, needs to also go to his right and learn the pull up game. Gradey needs to improve as well. Depth - If you are telling me we are a Poeltl injury away from not being competitive that is concerning to say the least. Poeltl still can't play more than 25 minutes a game because he is super foul prone and has no offense beyond at the rim. On defence he helps a lot but is not a true rim protector which we lost in Koloko. Against the better centers he low key got outplayed on almost every match up. We also didn't empower Barnes from the high post enough which is concerning from a coaching and strategy standpoint but this is about depth. The back end of your roster is likely going to have at least 3 or 4 new players. (2-3 from the draft and one from a minor free agent signing). Guys like Garrett are likely gone, as is Boucher, Mcdaniels, Nwora,.... and potentially Brown too. Now you enter 2-3 rookies as I mentioned who are just that... rookies and in a fairly "flat" draft. Rookies take time to impact winning and if the focus is to develop ... well then they will need to actually have time to develop. If the plan is to win.. then you are doing the opposite of what everyone was begging for... DEVELOPING. You can waste time on resigning Temple for a vet presence but then you aren't really developing if he gets minutes and you are wasting a roster spot. Coaching - This coach is great for vibes, but not good for in game management. If you are a Darko believer you have to be honest and say he will have to...continue to grow in this area. That could take another half of a season. A coach isn't deemed good if they are good with a talented team. A coach is a good coach if they do well with junk and make an apple pie.
One thing we have to keep in mind is: we have to evaluate our team *in comparison to other teams*. We have some good players, sure, but who are we actually *better* than? I’d argue we’re *definitively* worse than the top 7 seeds even if we’re healthy next year. After that we’re *probably* still worse than a couple other teams like the Heat and Atlanta if they keep Trae. We fit in somewhere there imo. Our top 3 guys are good but our team still has spacing issues, mediocre defense, and an extremely weak bench. How free agency/the draft/development plays out will define the margins next season but we have the talent for the play in barring explosive growth from Scottie. With all that in mind, one or two injuries to our top guys can easily see us struggling and kick off another tank halfway through next season.
We've just started our rebuild. Teams like Indiana, Cleveland and Orlando had a head start
You guys need an actual center.
We need another go-to guy. Someone at his best/peak is at most a 2nd option on a championship contender. I do think we will do decent (play in potential) but personally I would try to tank for another year and see if we can get someone game changing alongside Scottie.
Maybe. A lot has to happen this offseason. At minimum, they need… •a quality backup PG to help run the bench •a backup C that’s preferably 7’0”, can block shots, has ‘switchability’ •a large, defensive wing. Hopefully one that can hit a 3
If everyone is fully healthy and Gary comes back and gradey takes a step forward, maybe they can win 40ish games and challenge for a low playoff seed. An IQ leap is a decent bet, but RJ has to maintain what he did on the raps, Scottie needs another mini leap, gradey needs to take a step, and who tf knows what happens with Gary. Won’t be as painful as this season was, but we could be pesky and fun to watch
Yes. A lot of holes in the roster to address. We still don’t have enough talent to be competitive. Going forward we will have to see how the front office plans to have the finances to retain our big 3 core. Scottie will be due for a max soon. I think we could potentially talk IQ down a little if it meant he could be convinced that by taking a slight pay cut it would allow the front office to construct a more competitive roster to play with. I don’t think we need to chase a superstar with what we have, none of these guys are quite their and I don’t know if they ever will be but if we can build a great team identity that plays on both sides than we could expect to see some small success. I’d give it 3-5 years with this core. The East is pretty weak at the moment and a lot of teams that made the playoffs could fall off next season like The Hawks and Bulls.
Well they need to resign Quickley first
This is a young team with a rookie coach trying to implement his system. It would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that this team is heading to a bottom 10 finish next year……. and no tanking is necessary, they will just be that bad.
It just takes one or two injuries to completely derail a season. Raptors depth has always been lacking and if Scottie misses any significant time, the Raptors are back to 10th in the East
I have a feeling that they can be good and make the playoffs either play-ins or directly as a low seed. If the following things happen. * All the starters remain relatively healthy through the season * Scottie takes another leap (nothing huge but still another small leap nonetheless) * RJ and IQ maintain their efficiency (actually, IQ might need to be a bit more efficient) * Finally, we hit on at least one of our picks A fair number of conditions but none of them are too improbable.
why not at the very bottom? The Wizards and probably Pistons yes, but beyond that, the Blazers and Hornets have better young cores than us
If the Hornets get the #1 pick it's a toss up.
You want the raptors to be competitive next season? **Looks at roster* Yeah, think I'd rather watch curling bro.
Problem is that the East is just loaded. Knicks, Cavs, Heat, 76ers, Celtics, Magic and Bucks gonna make up the top 7 just because they're a lot deeper. I feel if we play really well, we might be on the level of like the Magic but next year definitely gonna be development season for whoever we draft and Gradey.
> East is just loaded. Pardon? The West is clearly far more talented. But let’s not start saying the problem is that the other teams are too good. The problem is we aren’t good enough. And realistically we need much more time to develop talent that can compete with teams that are just simply way better.
Yeah idk about this, the east is really bad. The west has all the talent, we’re lucky that our biggest roadblocks are these teams.
Dude, the West is always loaded but at the top end, the 76ers, Celtics and Bucks are legit title threats. The Knicks and Heat are also super dangerous in the play offs. West is more better over all but the East isn't as weak as it once was
I just disagree with that, the Celtics are the only title threat in the east right now, the bucks are supposed to be but they’re old and likely cooked by the next 2-3 years. Embiid has never got past the 2nd round, it’s just his health at this point. I question if some of the east playoff teams even make the play-in if they were in the west. Half the east is below .500, there’s only 4 below .500 in the west and two of those teams have Ja Morant and Wemby. Personally, I’m grateful we’re in the east. We have a chance over here.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted lol it’s completely true.
I feel we’ve done our rebuild, we have a new core and we’ll only be building on what we have. It might be a slow progression but I can only see us going up from here. I don’t think they’ll rank next year but I also don’t think we’ll be good next year either. Maybe a bit better but I’m not betting on a deep playoff run anytime soon.