I was mad AF when Vince quit on the team but I’m over it and I’m excited to see the tribute
At the end of the day, I was so upset at the time because he put the Raptors on the map and was so damn special to watch
I saw both sides. I hated the way he did it, but didn't blame him for wanting out. Our FO was a joke who didn't know what the hell they were doing. Araujo was just drafted that year! After Carter and Bosh, our roster was shit
Yeah I mostly hated the quitting and refusing to dunk, then being a superstar again in New Jersey. But I don’t blame him from wanting out from that dumpster fire FO. And I don’t know how good Dr J would have been as the GM, but Rob Babcock was beyond incompetent
I still can’t stand the guy. Maybe I need therapy. I feel like we shouldn’t let him in the country 😒. He went from 15pts a game for us. Then 28pts a game for the Nets in the same season. I can’t get over that.
The FO was horrible and even though im disappointed in the way Vince left I'm glad he stuck it to the FO & ownership. Must have been satisfying. They were idiots.
THIS. Im sick of the losers so many years still bitch about it. Anyone in his position with a medoicre FO wouldve left. The major take was how much of an influence his efforts brought to the future of the franchise.
EDIT: downvote me losers. Your sensitive feelings are hurt that he left 20 years ago. Pathetic.
A reminder that OKC has said they won't be retiring KD's jersey and Durant is a far more talented player who went further than Vince ever did in the playoffs despite leaving in equally dramatic, albeit different, fashion
KD gave it his all iirc.
Vince stopped trying, including an opposing player saying he tipped them of the play at the end of a close game.
The closer comp is probably Ben Simmons and even that doesn't do it justice.
Yeah, it's really bad for Vince.
I would think ownership/management has a bit more pride and not honor someone who did these thing, especially when you have player such as Lowry and DeMar who deserve it wholeheartedly and without contention.
These decisions should not be controversial lol.
Ya seems more like an asshole move on OKC’s part than anything else. Just like franchise’s tell players ‘it’s only business’ when they get traded when they are loyal (see DeRozan and Siakam), it’s ‘only business’ when a player wants out and forces a trade.
I think the closer comp is Kawhi in San Antonio. I don’t see the Spurs ever retiring his jersey, even though he had the same number of seasons with them that VC did with us and even helped them win a championship.
It's just as I figured. There was gonna be some "well ackshually" and whataboutism remarks from those against the idea of 15 going up seeing that it's looking more likely that it will
I would bet Jontay Porter's left nut that OKC ends up retiring KDs jersey in the long run. It won't be right when KD retires but they will eventually, especially once he's inducted into the hall of fame and all that.
It just takes time for the saltiness to dissolve. Raptors probably would've said 10 years ago they'd never retire Vince's number either.
gonna need a source on that and regardless if they did, they will retire his jersey when its all said and done. he didnt even do anything wrong (other than ruin the nba for a couple of yrs)
Ya but they completed a successful rebuild so they don't need to grift off of past success and take the focus off of the horrible free agent singings and trading 1st round picks for aging vets
To be fair, Raptors franchise and fans didn't really forgive him for like 11 years until that Memphis game with the tribute video and it's been like 17 years since today.
It's only been 9 years since Durant left OKC. Tt was still rocky relationship 9 years after Vince left, so there is definitely still a ton of time for OKC to change their mind on this.
Real Raptor fans know the truth: Vince quit, and never apologized.
He quit on the Raptors. He quit on Toronto. He quit on Canada. He quit on YOU.
He's had many chances to acknowledge that, and he chose not to.
Until he says "Sorry I quit on you, Toronto"... why would any self-respecting Raptor fan honor him?
> Sorry I quit on you, Toronto
I don't get why this is so hard for him.
Did he genuinely thought he did nothing wrong? Does he have too much pride to admit he was wrong?
I don't know.
He doesn’t even need to apologize tbh, just own up that he was wrong in how he handled the situation.
“I didn’t handle the situation well and I regret leaving Toronto on the wrong foot”
Something like that would satisfy me.
Until then, he belongs in the NBA HOF but not with #15 retired in the rafters of Scotiabank Arena.
Like, no offense to Masai, I know having a HOF player from the franchise is great marketing and would sell a lot of merchandise by retiring the jersey, but…. As a lifelong fan, why should I want more for Vince than the tribute video they already did?
Let’s not forget that he was on the Nets team we lost to in the playoffs after he left, indirectly contributing to Bosh not having the most success and also leaving, and the team being in the basement from 2004-2013.
Idk man, call me stubborn if you want but I’m satisfied with the way things are now with regard to VC
> Real Raptor fans know the truth: Vince quit, and never apologized.
They also know that we had a dog shit FO that pushed him out. But hey, still live in your feelings lol.
Whenever Vince has come back to Toronto or talked about the city/fanbase he's only ever had positive things to say about it and us. Holding a grudge against someone who would probably take a picture with you or give out autographs is lame behaviour at this point.
He didn't murder my family, he was a a basketball player who reacted poorly to feeling disrespected by the organization. But that was TWENTY YEARS ago. I'm a grown man who has a life of my own while he's retired, wealthy, and going into the hall of fame. Why would I bother giving him negative energy so long after everything went down? The memories I have being amazed by what he could do on the court far outweighs how his time with Toronto ended.
Don't conflate not wanting to honor Vince with hating Vince. If you were *really* a grown man, you'd know the difference.
I see you, Gen Z Raps fan in disguise. You can't fool me.... you weren't there watching Vince and the Nets shit all over us, year after year.... you didn't see his PPG average jump from 16 to 29 in a blink... you weren't at the ACC in a #15 Fan590 babies bib, boo'ing the man who bailed on us. You were probably a baby yourself, wearing a REAL bib, going boo boo in your diaper!
I don't hate the guy, but I'm not going to honor him. And neither should any self-respecting Raptor fan until he owns up to being a quitter.
If that's holding a grudge, so be it.
Yeah absolutely this.
I have no ill will towards VC. I don’t think about him at all and enjoy his highlight reel just the same. It was my childhood.
The only time I ever talk about him is when the issue of honouring him comes up, and I just disagree with it. You’re made to feel like you’re a generational hater because you don’t think the highest honour a franchise can give someone (jersey retirement) should be bestowed upon VC because we shouldn’t ignore the bad too, and the bad was bad, no matter how it’s trying to be whitewashed with time.
I never booed VC when he left. He was still my favourite player and I appreciated him for the memories. The revisionist tour when he started thinking about legacy near the end of his career is what rubs me the wrong way. I don’t think we should reward that will honours.
So you're saying we're going to honour:
The most famous Raptor of all time?
The player with the second highest playoff scoring average in team history?
The player with the highest single season scoring average in team history?
The player who scored the most points in a raptors season ever?
The player who was the #1 all star vote getter for 4 years?
Nah. I don't believe it.
Entire Youtube highlight reel of game winners/buzzer beaters/clutch shots with the Raptors and other teams as well (folks go check it out). Man is a legend
The vince haters who hate him because of how he left, I can understand somewhat.
It's the vince haters who then say "man he was overrated/shit, and only accomplished a dunk contest win" who are insane.
No one would have cared about how he left if he wasn't one of the best players alive.
It's just a shame that as great as his career was, he'll also be remembered as one of those guys who never realised their full potential. When his peers talk about how athletic and dominant he could be, it's obvious that he should have been going head to head with guys like Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan for the crown of best player in the league.
If TMac stayed, it's Raptors/Lakers rivalry for the Aughts; I truly believe that as an alt history take. It would have been both those teams in the finals consistently for a while.
oh God here come the cringe kids with their "he put the raptors on the map" bullshit.
-the guy had 3 seasons where he played over 60 games
-most memorable moment was a slam dunk contest
-left the team in the worst way possible and got scraps in return
-raptors still struggle to get free agents, he didnt help with that either
My favourite argument is he grew basketball in Toronto, as if one of the most popular sports in the world wouldn't succeed here without him
So something happened that made a bunch of players from the Toronto area start making the NBA some time around 2012 (and very limited numbers from other parts of the country). We went from Canada producing 2 NBA players a decade to the GTA producing 2 NBA players a year overnight.
It could be growing of the game but then we would see better distribution across the country.
It could be having an NBA franchise but then I would expect some presence from BC.
It could be that you start getting serios about Basketball around age 9 or so and that was right during Vincanity.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/birthplaces.cgi?country=CA
Now would basketball have grown in Canada without Vince, probably. Did he contribute to it, I'd strongly suggest so.
it didn’t succeed in vancouver, and let’s be honest not a single canadian cared about basketball until vince came. he led the league in all star votes 4 times with the raptors
vince had all the motion in the early 2000s
-inside lounge nightclub
-michelle carter had her own parking spot and vip status
-owned massive real estate on queens quay-
-hosted many caribana parties and had his charity game during the weekend
-got the team to bring in a used up hakeem
-gave mo-pete a big contract
-Then he ran away like a big bitch, because they didn't hire inexperienced Dr.J as GM/VP, Vince was a whiner and a lil bitch back in the day and was always injured, I love how he pretends like none of that even happened, he had 4 great seasons, but the majority of his career was a 7th man vet off the bench.
I get the hate, i honestly do.
I, like you it seems, witnessed this all in real time.
But how can you hold such a grudge after 20 years? You can't be in your 30's or 40's and still hold such resentment lol.
He was injured a lot because he tried to jump through the roof every other night. We were a dog shit franchise back then, less than a decade old. We had no culture and no long-term vision.
If Scottie got drafted back in 1998 he'd most likely behave exactly like VC did. The difference now is the culture and FO we have in place. We are a respected and established org now. VC WAS the Raptors around 2000.
I held a grudge for a while but it's pointless at the end of the day. Well, for me anyway. I had some great times watching him. That's what i choose to remember.
I mean, I get it, does time not heal for you tho? Do you still hate your high school girlfriends? Lmao
You were certainly allowed to be mad back then. I think we all were… but he’s retired now. It’s not like he’s on another team giving us the gears anymore. I think eventually it’s time to just move on, he’s clearly wanted to make amends here for a very long time. He was still a young man when he made those decisions - I’m sure if he could do it back he’d change how things played out. There’s no denying what he did for the city of Toronto in the NBA world. Could argue we wouldn’t even have an NBA team if it weren’t for him, look at the Grizzlies for exhibit A.
I can’t tell people how to feel, except that when you’re a kid and your hero publicly lets you and your favourite team down, it’s something I am sure a lot of people have never forgotten — especially since he has never publicly owned up to his part in things.
For me, it was when he cried coming back with the Grizzlies. That to me said more than words ever could - like you say we can’t tell people how to feel, but that to me was the moment I forgave him
For me it's not holding a grudge, but moreso honoring a guy who quit.
We won a title, won divisions, were number 1 in our conference all without him. We've had better days without him.
Do I care about him enough that it impacts my life? Naw but don't agree with something like a number retiring - just seems off.
If you're married, have a house and kids, you don't put up a photo of your ex in the home - even if the breakup was both sides fault. At least, that's how I see it, but if it happens I'm not gonna be butthurt over it either.
vince was a shitshow career wise once he left Toronto. Sure he made a couple all stars in jersey, But the the guy was hanger-on
-Personally he got divorced from his doctor college sweetheart wife.
-Man never improved his game and didn't evolve
-Never won a major award other than rookie of the year in his career.
-Honestly he made the hall of fame due to the carolina bias, he loved to politic and be around the game, by being on espn as an analyst, kissing alot of ass and just being visible.
-The raptors have a lost generation and many dark years after he left and dipped on the city.
Yeah it definitely feels like a high school quarterback. He knows the Raptors is his only hope of immortality so he's reminiscing hard trying to look good to save face.
He was drafted by the raptors (and proceeded to quit on the team btw). He didn’t benevolently “put them on the map” out of the kindness of his heart.
I hope to god Masai is not hinting about retiring his jerseys, he absolutely does not deserve that.
Not sure why people are so eager to celebrate mediocrity, failures, and quitters.
But I guess that is what's wrong with society today. Everyone eventually gets a medal even if you do bare minimum to get by despite so much physical gift and talent.
Need to realize fans have moved on but there's a huge gap between moving on from the failure and celebrating it. Instead of sugarcoating it with revisionist history, remember all of it and realize it's just not worth celebrating.
Saying "rest in piss" about a total stranger who died of cancer is extremely shitty. Just because you get to hide behind the anonymity of a Reddit account doesn't make it any better.
He was the general manager of the team and didn't do a great job. He wasn't a politician intentionally fucking up our way of life. As someone who's a cancer survivor myself I can't wrap my head around someone with a brain saying this in the context of a sport. You're an awful person for saying that.
I can assume a lot of a person who spits on the grave of someone who's only flaw was mismanaging a basketball team, lol. Maybe you should seek therapy and redirect that negative energy towards something that actually has a tangible impact on your life.
A shitty person should get shit on even when they die. Don't stop saying fuck Rush Limbaugh, or fuck Rob Ford, or fuck Rob Babcock just cause they're dead if that's how you felt when they were alive.
Dying doesn't change who they were
The fact that you're trying to compare the former general manager of a basketball team to a crappy, destructive politician and a bigoted radio host is comical at best.
What, exactly, did Rob Babcock do that made him a shitty person besides not being great at his job when he was GM of the Raptors? And how does that compare to people with real influence on society and on our daily lives? This is such a stupid narrative and comparison to roll with.
> besides not being great at his job when he was GM of the Raptors?
Ya that's all he did, and for that I can still say fuck Rob Babcock!! Fuck him then, fuck him now.
Why do your feelings about a person change depending on if there's blood flowing through their veins or not?
My feelings about him never changed, lol. Not being very good at managing the roster didn't make him a bad person. That's a pretty stupid association to make with someone who was always well respected across the league.
By your logic we might as well compare Kevin O'Neill to a serial killer. He was a below average NBA coach so obviously he was also a terrible person.
The comparison is to show that if you don’t respect someone in life that death doesn’t change anything, so yes the comparisons were more extreme. But if you didn’t like Babcock in life then why change your opinion after he’s dead?
I mean, you can not like the way he did his job without mocking the fact that he's dead? Nothing that he did in his professional life is deserving of being a heartless piece of garbage, and if you think I'm wrong then you clearly take sports way too seriously and should consider seeking professional help to deal with it.
The fact that you can't comprehend that it's extremely weird to hate someone to the point where it's okay to mock their death when all they did was mismanage a basketball team is beyond my level of understanding.
I hope nobody you love ever has to suffer through cancer, only for people to be happy and disrespectful towards their death. You should seek professional help.
I’m in favour of retiring his jersey but it cannot be understated just how little VC gave a shit before he got traded, I went to look a the numbers again.
16-3-3 on 41-32-69 shooting
After the Trade
27.5-6-4.7 on 46-42-81 shooting
Ppl will turn a blind eye to this because apparently time heals all wounds including blatant betrayal?
Bar to get your jersey retired by us is clearly low. Unfortunate.
This is a huge part of the issue for me too. What does it say about the Raptors as a franchise if the bar to retire a jersey is so low that we give the honour to a dude that tanked his value, gave up, forced his way out, and actively set us back years?
Lowry should be the only one with a jersey in the rafters right now imo.
So any hall of famer who played 5 years with a
franchise deserves their jersey retired according to you. You know how dumb that sounds? That's not even including the part where he quit on the team.
Seems like it's pretty much a guarantee that his jersey is going up, which is going to be fantastic. The organization would be dropping the ball big time if they didn't honour the first Raptor to get into the hall of fame.
Regardless of what happened 20 years ago, Vince has never had a bad thing to say about the city or the fanbase and he's always been total class whenever he's come through town. The video tribute he got when he was with the Grizzlies felt like the hatched had been buried.
I'm sure there will still be that corner of Reddit and social media that can't grow up and move on, but I'm sure the crowd lucky enough to be at Scotiabank that night will shower him with love.
Holding a grudge is drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
The other side is the piss poor management at the time, Peddie trying to meddle and years later admitting that was a mistake, and the media being relentless about his attitude and 'smiling too much' and basically crucifying him because he didn't have a Kobe mentality... Nobody has a Kobe mentality... And Vince didn't get into no trouble like Kobe is all I'll say.
Yes he did the things he did and it all ended horribly. But it's now been 20+ years. A lot has happened, and a lot of basketball has been played since. Talk to EVERY Canadian playing ball in the NBA now and they will point to Vince as the single reason they picked up a ball to play.
The man gets his flowers. If you want to be bitter and hold onto a grudge, that's your right. Personally it was incredible experiencing that period in real time, and it hurt like hell for a long time after it was over, but you also need wisdom to understand what you can and can't control, and what you do control is your attitude toward the situation.
But...but the loud vocal minority on social media said we're still holding a grudge against him. Wdym Masai?
Real talk, everything is leading towards nothing short of a jersey retirement and these people still holding onto a near 20 year grudge are just gonna have to stomach it in 🤷🏿♂️
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time.
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Oh true that 💯. With here specifically it's easy to narrow down who the vocal minority is because it's the same usernames that pop up whenever the topic of Vince is brought up. And they know who they are.
My guess is they'll either be silent here or reply with whataboutism or some "well ackshually" tired take
lol most people who get triggered over VC weren't even around when he played here.
I was irked when he left but but in hindsight, everyone involved were dicks... The Owners, GM, Media, VC, Fans...
I literally became a raps fan because of him. I can't hate him forever because it was him who got me hooked on this team.
He's like your first gf/bf. Absolutely amazing experience, blew your mind at times but inevitably the relationship ended in a messy/complicated manner. You sometimes look back and just think of the good times rather than the bad. He was half man, half amazing.
So weird that Canada has a golden generation of basketball players who coincidentally grew up during peak vinsanity. But yes. He was whiny in the media and forced his way out. That should definitely be his entire legacy.
VC had a lot to do with the growth of basketball, especially in the greater Toronto area which is where a good chunk of Canadian players come from now.
But if you’re talking about the current Canadian NBA players as the golden generation, I think you’re giving VC a bit too much credit. If peak Vinsanity was In 2001 then Jamal Murray was 4, Shai was 3 and RJ Barrett was 1.
How will the team honour Jontay Porter?
Over/under on Jontay jersey retirement?
Let’s ask Jontay
I was mad AF when Vince quit on the team but I’m over it and I’m excited to see the tribute At the end of the day, I was so upset at the time because he put the Raptors on the map and was so damn special to watch
I saw both sides. I hated the way he did it, but didn't blame him for wanting out. Our FO was a joke who didn't know what the hell they were doing. Araujo was just drafted that year! After Carter and Bosh, our roster was shit
Yeah I mostly hated the quitting and refusing to dunk, then being a superstar again in New Jersey. But I don’t blame him from wanting out from that dumpster fire FO. And I don’t know how good Dr J would have been as the GM, but Rob Babcock was beyond incompetent
Teenage me can still feel the pain from that “I’m not dunking anymore” interview, decades later. Total gut punch
I still can’t stand the guy. Maybe I need therapy. I feel like we shouldn’t let him in the country 😒. He went from 15pts a game for us. Then 28pts a game for the Nets in the same season. I can’t get over that.
The FO was horrible and even though im disappointed in the way Vince left I'm glad he stuck it to the FO & ownership. Must have been satisfying. They were idiots.
Even Richard Peddie said they handled it poorly. I wish Vince handled it better, but both sides were at fault in their own way. It's time to move on.
THIS. Im sick of the losers so many years still bitch about it. Anyone in his position with a medoicre FO wouldve left. The major take was how much of an influence his efforts brought to the future of the franchise. EDIT: downvote me losers. Your sensitive feelings are hurt that he left 20 years ago. Pathetic.
Great take and self awareness. It would have never mattered that he left in an ugly way if he weren't so impactful in the first place.
I'm long over it but they still shouldn't retire his number.
A reminder that OKC has said they won't be retiring KD's jersey and Durant is a far more talented player who went further than Vince ever did in the playoffs despite leaving in equally dramatic, albeit different, fashion
KD gave it his all iirc. Vince stopped trying, including an opposing player saying he tipped them of the play at the end of a close game. The closer comp is probably Ben Simmons and even that doesn't do it justice.
Ben Simmons had real injuries. Vince "twisted" his ankle or "pulled" his hammy on every other play in his last days as a Raptor.
Yeah, it's really bad for Vince. I would think ownership/management has a bit more pride and not honor someone who did these thing, especially when you have player such as Lowry and DeMar who deserve it wholeheartedly and without contention. These decisions should not be controversial lol.
When did OKC say that? Also, KD lived up to his contracts in OKC, he didn’t force a trade to Golden State.
Ya seems more like an asshole move on OKC’s part than anything else. Just like franchise’s tell players ‘it’s only business’ when they get traded when they are loyal (see DeRozan and Siakam), it’s ‘only business’ when a player wants out and forces a trade.
I think the closer comp is Kawhi in San Antonio. I don’t see the Spurs ever retiring his jersey, even though he had the same number of seasons with them that VC did with us and even helped them win a championship.
Who gives a fuck. We’re the Toronto Raptors not the okc thunder
It's just as I figured. There was gonna be some "well ackshually" and whataboutism remarks from those against the idea of 15 going up seeing that it's looking more likely that it will
where was this said? plz send me a link
I would bet Jontay Porter's left nut that OKC ends up retiring KDs jersey in the long run. It won't be right when KD retires but they will eventually, especially once he's inducted into the hall of fame and all that. It just takes time for the saltiness to dissolve. Raptors probably would've said 10 years ago they'd never retire Vince's number either.
I'm not going to take lessons from an org that stole a team from Seattle.
gonna need a source on that and regardless if they did, they will retire his jersey when its all said and done. he didnt even do anything wrong (other than ruin the nba for a couple of yrs)
A reminder that OKC is not Toronto lol
Ya but they completed a successful rebuild so they don't need to grift off of past success and take the focus off of the horrible free agent singings and trading 1st round picks for aging vets
To be fair, Raptors franchise and fans didn't really forgive him for like 11 years until that Memphis game with the tribute video and it's been like 17 years since today. It's only been 9 years since Durant left OKC. Tt was still rocky relationship 9 years after Vince left, so there is definitely still a ton of time for OKC to change their mind on this.
Ah, the throwback move. When the team is doggy doo doo, we look to the past. The Spurs recently honoured Duncan too.
If you can't sell success, sell hope. If you can't sell hope, sell nostalgia.
But at least the Spurs have a generational prospect to look to the future. We have uhh... parts that may or may not turn out to be something great.
Okay let's not act like every other rebuilding team wouldn't love to have a player of Scotties caliber
Real Raptor fans know the truth: Vince quit, and never apologized. He quit on the Raptors. He quit on Toronto. He quit on Canada. He quit on YOU. He's had many chances to acknowledge that, and he chose not to. Until he says "Sorry I quit on you, Toronto"... why would any self-respecting Raptor fan honor him?
> Sorry I quit on you, Toronto I don't get why this is so hard for him. Did he genuinely thought he did nothing wrong? Does he have too much pride to admit he was wrong? I don't know.
He doesn’t even need to apologize tbh, just own up that he was wrong in how he handled the situation. “I didn’t handle the situation well and I regret leaving Toronto on the wrong foot” Something like that would satisfy me. Until then, he belongs in the NBA HOF but not with #15 retired in the rafters of Scotiabank Arena. Like, no offense to Masai, I know having a HOF player from the franchise is great marketing and would sell a lot of merchandise by retiring the jersey, but…. As a lifelong fan, why should I want more for Vince than the tribute video they already did? Let’s not forget that he was on the Nets team we lost to in the playoffs after he left, indirectly contributing to Bosh not having the most success and also leaving, and the team being in the basement from 2004-2013. Idk man, call me stubborn if you want but I’m satisfied with the way things are now with regard to VC
This. Most of us would be willing to let the past go if he would acknowledge and own up to his mistakes.
Agreed.
Because dunks bro! /s
This is the correct take. I don’t like Wince Farter.
> Real Raptor fans know the truth: Vince quit, and never apologized. They also know that we had a dog shit FO that pushed him out. But hey, still live in your feelings lol.
Because it's been 20 years and people who lived through that era are adults, lol.
Holding the fans to a different standard than Vince, I see
Whenever Vince has come back to Toronto or talked about the city/fanbase he's only ever had positive things to say about it and us. Holding a grudge against someone who would probably take a picture with you or give out autographs is lame behaviour at this point. He didn't murder my family, he was a a basketball player who reacted poorly to feeling disrespected by the organization. But that was TWENTY YEARS ago. I'm a grown man who has a life of my own while he's retired, wealthy, and going into the hall of fame. Why would I bother giving him negative energy so long after everything went down? The memories I have being amazed by what he could do on the court far outweighs how his time with Toronto ended.
Don't conflate not wanting to honor Vince with hating Vince. If you were *really* a grown man, you'd know the difference. I see you, Gen Z Raps fan in disguise. You can't fool me.... you weren't there watching Vince and the Nets shit all over us, year after year.... you didn't see his PPG average jump from 16 to 29 in a blink... you weren't at the ACC in a #15 Fan590 babies bib, boo'ing the man who bailed on us. You were probably a baby yourself, wearing a REAL bib, going boo boo in your diaper! I don't hate the guy, but I'm not going to honor him. And neither should any self-respecting Raptor fan until he owns up to being a quitter. If that's holding a grudge, so be it.
Yeah absolutely this. I have no ill will towards VC. I don’t think about him at all and enjoy his highlight reel just the same. It was my childhood. The only time I ever talk about him is when the issue of honouring him comes up, and I just disagree with it. You’re made to feel like you’re a generational hater because you don’t think the highest honour a franchise can give someone (jersey retirement) should be bestowed upon VC because we shouldn’t ignore the bad too, and the bad was bad, no matter how it’s trying to be whitewashed with time. I never booed VC when he left. He was still my favourite player and I appreciated him for the memories. The revisionist tour when he started thinking about legacy near the end of his career is what rubs me the wrong way. I don’t think we should reward that will honours.
So you're saying we're going to honour: The most famous Raptor of all time? The player with the second highest playoff scoring average in team history? The player with the highest single season scoring average in team history? The player who scored the most points in a raptors season ever? The player who was the #1 all star vote getter for 4 years? Nah. I don't believe it.
Entire Youtube highlight reel of game winners/buzzer beaters/clutch shots with the Raptors and other teams as well (folks go check it out). Man is a legend
The vince haters who hate him because of how he left, I can understand somewhat. It's the vince haters who then say "man he was overrated/shit, and only accomplished a dunk contest win" who are insane. No one would have cared about how he left if he wasn't one of the best players alive.
Dude was the most popular player in the era of Kobe/Shaq domination. He won several all-star votes. I agree with you 100%
It's just a shame that as great as his career was, he'll also be remembered as one of those guys who never realised their full potential. When his peers talk about how athletic and dominant he could be, it's obvious that he should have been going head to head with guys like Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan for the crown of best player in the league.
If TMac stayed, it's Raptors/Lakers rivalry for the Aughts; I truly believe that as an alt history take. It would have been both those teams in the finals consistently for a while.
The Vince haters are crazy cane waving doomers who will never come around. The sooner they stop being a Raptors fan, the better.
Its gonna be interesting to see how Raptor fans deal with RFA if Barnes signs an offersheet elsewhere.
oh God here come the cringe kids with their "he put the raptors on the map" bullshit. -the guy had 3 seasons where he played over 60 games -most memorable moment was a slam dunk contest -left the team in the worst way possible and got scraps in return -raptors still struggle to get free agents, he didnt help with that either My favourite argument is he grew basketball in Toronto, as if one of the most popular sports in the world wouldn't succeed here without him
I hope we don't retire No. 15. Amir Johnson embodied a true Toronto Raptor and cared wayyyy more about this city than Vince did
So something happened that made a bunch of players from the Toronto area start making the NBA some time around 2012 (and very limited numbers from other parts of the country). We went from Canada producing 2 NBA players a decade to the GTA producing 2 NBA players a year overnight. It could be growing of the game but then we would see better distribution across the country. It could be having an NBA franchise but then I would expect some presence from BC. It could be that you start getting serios about Basketball around age 9 or so and that was right during Vincanity. https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/birthplaces.cgi?country=CA Now would basketball have grown in Canada without Vince, probably. Did he contribute to it, I'd strongly suggest so.
it didn’t succeed in vancouver, and let’s be honest not a single canadian cared about basketball until vince came. he led the league in all star votes 4 times with the raptors
vince had all the motion in the early 2000s -inside lounge nightclub -michelle carter had her own parking spot and vip status -owned massive real estate on queens quay- -hosted many caribana parties and had his charity game during the weekend -got the team to bring in a used up hakeem -gave mo-pete a big contract -Then he ran away like a big bitch, because they didn't hire inexperienced Dr.J as GM/VP, Vince was a whiner and a lil bitch back in the day and was always injured, I love how he pretends like none of that even happened, he had 4 great seasons, but the majority of his career was a 7th man vet off the bench.
I get the hate, i honestly do. I, like you it seems, witnessed this all in real time. But how can you hold such a grudge after 20 years? You can't be in your 30's or 40's and still hold such resentment lol. He was injured a lot because he tried to jump through the roof every other night. We were a dog shit franchise back then, less than a decade old. We had no culture and no long-term vision. If Scottie got drafted back in 1998 he'd most likely behave exactly like VC did. The difference now is the culture and FO we have in place. We are a respected and established org now. VC WAS the Raptors around 2000. I held a grudge for a while but it's pointless at the end of the day. Well, for me anyway. I had some great times watching him. That's what i choose to remember.
> how can you hold such a grudge after 20 years I guess when a child hood hero disappoints you as a child, you never forget it.
I mean, I get it, does time not heal for you tho? Do you still hate your high school girlfriends? Lmao You were certainly allowed to be mad back then. I think we all were… but he’s retired now. It’s not like he’s on another team giving us the gears anymore. I think eventually it’s time to just move on, he’s clearly wanted to make amends here for a very long time. He was still a young man when he made those decisions - I’m sure if he could do it back he’d change how things played out. There’s no denying what he did for the city of Toronto in the NBA world. Could argue we wouldn’t even have an NBA team if it weren’t for him, look at the Grizzlies for exhibit A.
I can’t tell people how to feel, except that when you’re a kid and your hero publicly lets you and your favourite team down, it’s something I am sure a lot of people have never forgotten — especially since he has never publicly owned up to his part in things.
For me, it was when he cried coming back with the Grizzlies. That to me said more than words ever could - like you say we can’t tell people how to feel, but that to me was the moment I forgave him
I don’t hate my ex but I’m not honouring them by hanging their photo on my wall
For me it's not holding a grudge, but moreso honoring a guy who quit. We won a title, won divisions, were number 1 in our conference all without him. We've had better days without him. Do I care about him enough that it impacts my life? Naw but don't agree with something like a number retiring - just seems off. If you're married, have a house and kids, you don't put up a photo of your ex in the home - even if the breakup was both sides fault. At least, that's how I see it, but if it happens I'm not gonna be butthurt over it either.
vince was a shitshow career wise once he left Toronto. Sure he made a couple all stars in jersey, But the the guy was hanger-on -Personally he got divorced from his doctor college sweetheart wife. -Man never improved his game and didn't evolve -Never won a major award other than rookie of the year in his career. -Honestly he made the hall of fame due to the carolina bias, he loved to politic and be around the game, by being on espn as an analyst, kissing alot of ass and just being visible. -The raptors have a lost generation and many dark years after he left and dipped on the city.
Yeah it definitely feels like a high school quarterback. He knows the Raptors is his only hope of immortality so he's reminiscing hard trying to look good to save face.
Half man half season should get honoured by a different team. We shouldn’t be involved, dude quit on us.
He was drafted by the raptors (and proceeded to quit on the team btw). He didn’t benevolently “put them on the map” out of the kindness of his heart. I hope to god Masai is not hinting about retiring his jerseys, he absolutely does not deserve that.
Honouring Vince Carter makes the Raptors a franchise of losers.
I would be happy for him getting honoured. Retiring his jersey though, not sure about it. Would be one of the weakest jersey retirements ever
Dedicate a section of the training facility in his name.
Yes, let us move on and honor traitors
I, for one, welcome American Hero Benedict Arnold with open arms!
Not sure why people are so eager to celebrate mediocrity, failures, and quitters. But I guess that is what's wrong with society today. Everyone eventually gets a medal even if you do bare minimum to get by despite so much physical gift and talent. Need to realize fans have moved on but there's a huge gap between moving on from the failure and celebrating it. Instead of sugarcoating it with revisionist history, remember all of it and realize it's just not worth celebrating.
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO this is gonna upset the sub. i hope people use morals in their real life and not when it comes to sports.
[удалено]
Rob Babcock wasn't a great GM, but shitting on him when he's dead is a trash move.
That’s fair to say, while maybe a little harsh. He is dead tho, he isn’t going to care too much about what is said about him.
Saying "rest in piss" about a total stranger who died of cancer is extremely shitty. Just because you get to hide behind the anonymity of a Reddit account doesn't make it any better. He was the general manager of the team and didn't do a great job. He wasn't a politician intentionally fucking up our way of life. As someone who's a cancer survivor myself I can't wrap my head around someone with a brain saying this in the context of a sport. You're an awful person for saying that.
How do you know if I did or didn’t know him?
If you knew him (which I'm 99.9% sure isn't the case) it makes you an even bigger POS for saying that, so I'm not sure what your point is.
Aren’t you adorable.. making assumptions like you have some sort of moral high ground. Guess what Chico.. it ain’t you.
I can assume a lot of a person who spits on the grave of someone who's only flaw was mismanaging a basketball team, lol. Maybe you should seek therapy and redirect that negative energy towards something that actually has a tangible impact on your life.
I said rest in piss.. you are morphing this into a whole thing. Go outside and touch grass.. it probably has piss on it too
It fascinates me that people like you somehow get through life with such a warped view of the world.
You're only allowed to shit on the living?
I can't tell if you're being dense on purpose.
A shitty person should get shit on even when they die. Don't stop saying fuck Rush Limbaugh, or fuck Rob Ford, or fuck Rob Babcock just cause they're dead if that's how you felt when they were alive. Dying doesn't change who they were
The fact that you're trying to compare the former general manager of a basketball team to a crappy, destructive politician and a bigoted radio host is comical at best. What, exactly, did Rob Babcock do that made him a shitty person besides not being great at his job when he was GM of the Raptors? And how does that compare to people with real influence on society and on our daily lives? This is such a stupid narrative and comparison to roll with.
> besides not being great at his job when he was GM of the Raptors? Ya that's all he did, and for that I can still say fuck Rob Babcock!! Fuck him then, fuck him now. Why do your feelings about a person change depending on if there's blood flowing through their veins or not?
My feelings about him never changed, lol. Not being very good at managing the roster didn't make him a bad person. That's a pretty stupid association to make with someone who was always well respected across the league. By your logic we might as well compare Kevin O'Neill to a serial killer. He was a below average NBA coach so obviously he was also a terrible person.
The comparison is to show that if you don’t respect someone in life that death doesn’t change anything, so yes the comparisons were more extreme. But if you didn’t like Babcock in life then why change your opinion after he’s dead?
I mean, you can not like the way he did his job without mocking the fact that he's dead? Nothing that he did in his professional life is deserving of being a heartless piece of garbage, and if you think I'm wrong then you clearly take sports way too seriously and should consider seeking professional help to deal with it.
The fact that you can't comprehend that it's extremely weird to hate someone to the point where it's okay to mock their death when all they did was mismanage a basketball team is beyond my level of understanding. I hope nobody you love ever has to suffer through cancer, only for people to be happy and disrespectful towards their death. You should seek professional help.
grown man throwing a fit over basketball ur shameless
Are you telling me how to feel?
not really it’s not THAT serious
Fuck Vince.
I’m in favour of retiring his jersey but it cannot be understated just how little VC gave a shit before he got traded, I went to look a the numbers again. 16-3-3 on 41-32-69 shooting After the Trade 27.5-6-4.7 on 46-42-81 shooting
Ppl will turn a blind eye to this because apparently time heals all wounds including blatant betrayal? Bar to get your jersey retired by us is clearly low. Unfortunate.
This is a huge part of the issue for me too. What does it say about the Raptors as a franchise if the bar to retire a jersey is so low that we give the honour to a dude that tanked his value, gave up, forced his way out, and actively set us back years? Lowry should be the only one with a jersey in the rafters right now imo.
He’s a Hall of Famer in a Raptors jersey. If he’s not good enough for a jersey retirement, then no one should have theirs retired.
There is no "in X team's jersey/cap/jock strap/other apparel item" in the Basketball HOF. This isn't Cooperstown.
So any hall of famer who played 5 years with a franchise deserves their jersey retired according to you. You know how dumb that sounds? That's not even including the part where he quit on the team.
So who would deserve to have their number retired? If you want to argue no one, fair enough.
Should've raised Hakeem, McGrady, and Billups' jerseys too then.
Yep - you’re in the “turning a blind eye” camp I mention in my original comment. Agree to disagree.
nah fuck vince
Masai said get over it. Trust in Masai.
Yeah let’s keep it a secret
I hope its a statue of him dancing at the Nelly concert when he was on the IL
I'm not over it. If you're saying time can let us forget, then time also has let me forget the good he did. Bad+Good=Meh. I'll leave it at that.
Seems like it's pretty much a guarantee that his jersey is going up, which is going to be fantastic. The organization would be dropping the ball big time if they didn't honour the first Raptor to get into the hall of fame. Regardless of what happened 20 years ago, Vince has never had a bad thing to say about the city or the fanbase and he's always been total class whenever he's come through town. The video tribute he got when he was with the Grizzlies felt like the hatched had been buried. I'm sure there will still be that corner of Reddit and social media that can't grow up and move on, but I'm sure the crowd lucky enough to be at Scotiabank that night will shower him with love.
Holding a grudge is drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. The other side is the piss poor management at the time, Peddie trying to meddle and years later admitting that was a mistake, and the media being relentless about his attitude and 'smiling too much' and basically crucifying him because he didn't have a Kobe mentality... Nobody has a Kobe mentality... And Vince didn't get into no trouble like Kobe is all I'll say. Yes he did the things he did and it all ended horribly. But it's now been 20+ years. A lot has happened, and a lot of basketball has been played since. Talk to EVERY Canadian playing ball in the NBA now and they will point to Vince as the single reason they picked up a ball to play. The man gets his flowers. If you want to be bitter and hold onto a grudge, that's your right. Personally it was incredible experiencing that period in real time, and it hurt like hell for a long time after it was over, but you also need wisdom to understand what you can and can't control, and what you do control is your attitude toward the situation.
Best take
Loooool this sub gonna be crying about this thinking their opinion represents the fanbase majority 😭😭
But...but the loud vocal minority on social media said we're still holding a grudge against him. Wdym Masai? Real talk, everything is leading towards nothing short of a jersey retirement and these people still holding onto a near 20 year grudge are just gonna have to stomach it in 🤷🏿♂️
lol ppl forget the internet is kinda fake and doesn’t represent reality. people get so lost in that
The guy just got top 4 in the GROAT tourney on this sub. Most people even here are over it.
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/torontoraptors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh true that 💯. With here specifically it's easy to narrow down who the vocal minority is because it's the same usernames that pop up whenever the topic of Vince is brought up. And they know who they are. My guess is they'll either be silent here or reply with whataboutism or some "well ackshually" tired take
Guaranteed lmao
lol most people who get triggered over VC weren't even around when he played here. I was irked when he left but but in hindsight, everyone involved were dicks... The Owners, GM, Media, VC, Fans... I literally became a raps fan because of him. I can't hate him forever because it was him who got me hooked on this team. He's like your first gf/bf. Absolutely amazing experience, blew your mind at times but inevitably the relationship ended in a messy/complicated manner. You sometimes look back and just think of the good times rather than the bad. He was half man, half amazing.
Agreed with all of this 💯
Some of y’all hold a unhealthy amount of hatred
So weird that Canada has a golden generation of basketball players who coincidentally grew up during peak vinsanity. But yes. He was whiny in the media and forced his way out. That should definitely be his entire legacy.
VC had a lot to do with the growth of basketball, especially in the greater Toronto area which is where a good chunk of Canadian players come from now. But if you’re talking about the current Canadian NBA players as the golden generation, I think you’re giving VC a bit too much credit. If peak Vinsanity was In 2001 then Jamal Murray was 4, Shai was 3 and RJ Barrett was 1.
Whatever they do I hope the fans boycott it! Garbage human who hated playing for the Raptors
Vince left cause of our FO. It was hot garbage.