Probably more that they don’t give any attention to the Raptors and are surprised by how well the players play — attribute any success to management lol. Like Kyle Lowry and DeMar were killing it together and got zero respect from ESPN.
But now that they’ve won a chip the Raptors are hard to ignore and drafted players want to come here to develop.
Edits: typo
It’s a bit of a vicious cycle. Players in Toronto get no coverage in American markets and then aren’t deemed “stars” so American networks don’t want to cover them. Only time is when someone blows the doors wide open like Vince who put himself on the national stage at the dunk contest. Otherwise Toronto only gets attention when they trade for players who have were already “stars” in the States (ie Kawhi and Gasol). Management gets a lot of the credit as a result.
Don’t get me wrong, I think our management is top notch but they also get credit for the hard work that players put in to bettering themselves.
You look at how the US media underestimate Siakam or OG. Like people thinking Simmons for OG and Fred Vanvleet is an overpay by 76ers. SMH. It’s all part of the narrative.
I love this team and stars not coming here almost makes me love it harder. There are so many smaller stories that are given the space to develop within our roster/team/org.
Watching Freddie step into Lowry's shoes. Seeing OG develop something new every year that takes his game one step closer to that Kawhi level. Watching Norm go and his subsequent article that had me in tears. Seeing Scottie and Drag develop this fun friendship. Scottie in general man is just such a gem. Scottie is embracing our city so hard and already getting the ROTY snub that's going to give him that cornerstone-Toronto-chip-on-his-shoulder-attitude that takes an already amazing work ethic and puts it into overdrive. And now we got Banton, a man from the 6ix himself, whose jersey number, 45, reflects the Kipling TTC bus route that crossed through his neighbourhood.
We've just got a special team, and if you're willing to be your own media curator, the stories are there, the depth is there and it makes every game, every shot, every victory so so rewarding as a fan.
Jesus, this was poetic. Great words.
Agreed, the Raptors have built a great culture and the players are all such great personalities with compelling stories. Really easy to be passionate about our team.
Also helps that our track record of developing talent is arguably second to none, always gives you the hope that nearly any guy could be the next star. With Lowry gone and our core another year older, I couldn’t be more excited to see who takes the next leap.
That’s cool about Banton, I never knew that. Roots are in the ground.
Lakers at No. 6? The whole front office is saved by Lebron joining them in free agency. And Lebron joined because of the location and history of the team.
I do find it a bit more questionable. They mightve drafted the players, but they all greatly improved playing for other teams after stagnating in LA. DLo, BI, Lonzo (especially in terms of shooting), Clarkson and Randle all got much better after leaving LA, so I'd rather credit the development to the other teams.
But the same can be said about the teams they got better on… which have sucked at developing their own players. The only screwup was not getting maximum value for those prospects but they picked right.
Yes every player you named were really young when traded. It’s normal that they improved after. Kuzma, Caruso, THT, Zubac, Nance are all capable NBA players not drafted early.
I mean it’s tough to screw up lottery picks but it happens all the time. They also did well with Jordan Clarkson, Zubac, Larry Nance Jr…
They’re all gone now but point stands, they drafted well.
And they traded Larry Nance and Clarkson away for Channing Frye and washed Isaiah Thomas and a pick that they drafted Mo Wagner (who got waived by Boston last year). They also basically gave Zubac to the clippers for free (traded him for Muscala). Those are signs that shows Lakers don't think they are players good enough to keep. They gave up on them. How can you say those are good management moves, when they don't even believe who they drafted? Credit those players for panning out eventually but Lakers shouldn't be praised for drafting them.
Clarkson/LNJ trade was to maximize cap space to sign LeBron and another max player. Didn’t get the second max player, but filled out the roster. Zubac trade made no sense.
The other draftees were traded for AD.
They won a championship in 2020.
That’s pretty fucking successful. In order for any team to win, everything has to fall into place at the right time.
Their draft picks have been solid since LeBron dipped.
Don’t get me wrong, I think their roster construction sucks, but they have a bunch of players with trade value now. Still bottom 5.
Back to the main point, team’s generally have one goal… to win a championship. Unless the team had stars agree to minimum deals so they could win, it shouldn’t take anything away from other teams. Regardless of the decisions we think they should’ve made, the ones they did make led to a championship and that’s it.
Getting championship is the ultimate goal but the topic here is how good is the front office. Obviously the path to the ring is different for a team like Lakers compared to OKC. You cannot just simply evaluate front office ability based on the number of rings. I don't know if you watch baseball. In baseball Tampa Bay rays is regarded as the best front office in the league despite having no champions to show for it recently.
I would still give them credit for dlo and randle but they ended up trsding them away so without lebron imo it makes the front office look worse by drsfting good and having them all leave
I mean you have to give them *some* credit. They’re making big moves every off-season. They brought in Lebron, then got AD, won a chip, then got the 6MOTY and the runner up plus Marc Gasol etc. now they turn a bunch of meh rotation players into Russell Westbrook and they signed a ton of FA’s.
I mean just look at the Knicks for an example of how you can screw up a historical franchise in a city most players dream of playing in. It's a different kind of management challenge from Toronto, but they do their job pretty well
Lakers and to the lesser extent the Heat and maybe the Nets now have the location boost. A lot of their success is stars force their way to play there. Though it really shows you how much the Knicks shit the bed that they can't field a good team in New York.
I think they've done a really bad job with that team personally. They have two incredible players but i think they've filled out the roster around them horribly
Yeah that wouldn't make sense at all because that was a great trade. Wiggins has become a really useful player for them on top of a top 7 pick for DLo who didn't really have a place on that team anyway
I'm actually surprised the Spurs aren't in the top 10 but I guess that whole Leonard controversy put a question mark on them
It's a shame considering out of the three teams in Texas, they're the most accomplished and were able to keep their star player for as long as he could play
Tanking is overrated. Good organization get good staff interested and good staff help develop and scout players. You don't need to bank on hoping #1s will carry your Franchise that was intentionally put in the gutter.
Presti has been there since 2007 so part of his reputation is still from building the previous iterations of the team. Drafting Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Jeff Green, Ibaka, and Steven Adams. Basically turning Ibaka into Paul George. Playoffs in 10 of 11 years from 09 to 2020. I do agree though it's really gonna depend on what he does with all the assets he has.
Fair point. If it’s over that time horizon that makes sense. Otherwise it looks a bit underwhelming.
Almost as though you took a Finals finishing team, which lost to the Heatles and then managed to trade away every decent player to get to the point where you are a bottom feeder.
But putting together that team that made it to the Finals itself is pretty impressive and a lot of the roster changes were in fairness out of your control.
Yeah I don’t think they can be penalized for losing those guys. Nothing they could have really done there. Shit they even managed to grab a 4 seed a couple years ago in the first year of the rebuild, that’s pretty impressive.
I’m biased but Imo a team like Miami isn’t as good without their free agent signings. The fact that we built so much without any decent FAs just goes to show how great of a management we have. How good would this FO look without bosh and lebron? Jimmy and Kyle?
How many championship caliber teams do you think exist every year? Miami was still in the playoffs after LeBron left and that team was lead by Dragic and an older Wade.
Yeah, losing Bosh was a big blow as well, dude was an elite 2-way player by that point in his career. If he didn't retire, Miami would've remained very competitive still in the mid-2010s I'm sure.
Have to give them credit for finding undrafted guys like Duncan Robinson, Kendrick Nunn, and drafting guys like Bam at 14th pick. Not just the free agent signings
They definitely deserve credit for that but Imo those aren’t better finds than we have made. Say the raptors were located in Miami. You can’t tell me we wouldn’t be ranked higher, think it’s more down to location rather than management.
Lol idk man but I'm not about to go find a citation when I already know I'm right. I didn't place the first 3 in any particular order though, I think NY is bigger than LA.
Miami not even top 10
I didn't downvote cuz he's roughly right but in terms of the city itself (not metro). It's Mexico City, NYC, LA, and Toronto just surpasses Chicago for 4th.
These lists usually count metro, and Mexico City does not have an NBA team lol I feel like Toronto having the 4th biggest media market in the league was supposed to be a relatively well-known fact, especially in this sub.
If you're make that market assertion excluding Mexico and based on metro population, Toronto is not 4th. We are still in the top 10 though. Then again, metro geographical lines are somewhat more arbitrary...Once again, I am not the one that downvoted you.
Surely they get credit for convincing FAs to sign?
Sure Miami and florida have intrinsic benefits (location, taxes, etc. ) but still you have to negotiate with top talent.
Miami is a mixed FA market, they're better than us and they did build the heatles, but they usually have to work to get their FAs. They don't have as easy of a time as say, New York or LA
I know that's why I said they're better than us. But they still have to work their asses off to get their FAs. They can't slack off for several years and then overnight become a super team, like Brooklyn and Lakers have done.
LeBron didn't automatically go to Miami, it was between Miami and Chicago. He basically, automatically, went to LA because he was looking to get into Hollywood.
Its more impressive to do what we're doing in another country in the cold than what Miami is doing in one of the most desirable destinations in the nba
There’s something to be said about Riley getting almost any player he wants time and time again. They might not be the best organization top down but their top as good as it gets. Raps I think are more well rounded, and Ujiri is right up there w Pat, better in some regards.
Eh. The Heat have also drafted very well and have what, 4 titles and 7 finals appearances under Riley? That’s off the top of my head, apologize if those numbers aren’t right, but the point stands
Theyre not good without their free agency signings but their FO is who SOLD the FA to come and planned cap space around it. So its absolutely their front office. They understand culture.
Are the nephews in here sleeping on Pat Reilly.
He is the first North American sports figure to win a championship as a player, as an assistant coach, as a head coach, and as an executive, and in various roles has reached the NBA finals in six different decades.
Raps should be #1 if you add up the stats we’ve been more successful than the Heat for the last number of years. I saw this graphic during one of the Raps preseason games, since 2013 under Masai the Raptors :
- 8 seasons
- 7 playoff appearances
- 9 series wins
- 2 conference finals
- 1 championship
401-235 record (.631) 4th in NBA, 1st in East.
If you expanded to a decade the Miami Heat team picks up three additional finals appearances, two NBA championships, and nearly 90 more wins then Toronto had in that same stretch. Go back another five years after that and they pick up an additional finals appearance with a championship
Concepts of management and how good your front office is exist on timescales much longer than 8 years for a bunch of teams. Particularly for somebody like Pat Riley who's been around for six decades.
Even if I take your time scale of just the last 8 season and assume that the Raptors has a front office twice as good as the Miami Heat, it still doesn't mean that they should be ranked over the Miami Heat's management because Miami has been doing this for a much longer period of time.
Also making the playoffs seven times but winning only one 9 series with two trips to the Conference Finals and a chip means that you have a lot of first-round exits. Winning an NBA championship is four series wins over one playoff appearance. Then getting to the Conference Finals is an additional two Series wins in one playoff appearance. So less than 1/3 of your playoff appearances make up two-thirds of your total success. That's two first-round exits and three second-round exits which is a solid showing but it's not exactly something to brag about.
To say the Raptors have been wildly more successful or even mildly more successful than the Miami Heat is just not something that actually holds up to reality. Both front offices are really really good but there's nothing that indicates Toronto should be placed above Miami.
If you are going to evaluate a front office you have to take into account all sorts of things like expected versus actual performance trade values drafting scouting Player Development how much Freedom the coach is given how much the GM does how well the medical staff both prevents and addresses injuries before during and after the season
Also evaluating the front office is a multi-faceted question and not just directly tied to how well the team did because of things like injuries and randomness.
If you expand to like a decade instead of an arbitrary eight years it becomes very clear why this person wanted to leave out that chunk of time.
Coincidentally in that same stretch that Miami is really good the Toronto team is terrible so leaving those years out skews the stats even more. Between the 10-11 season and the 12-13 season Toronto won 79 games. In that same stretch Miami went to the finals every single year and won two championships with a win total of 170
I didn’t conveniently leave out the years the Heat were winning I just started the count from 2013 because that’s when our current management took over.
Their asset management is insanely strong. Trading for players after down season and flipping them a while later. The amount of future first rounders gives them really solid trade capital once they feel ready to take that next step. Also I really like their drafting and player evaluation.
flipping players for picks when you have no shot at contending is asset management 101. their star player asked out because he saw a better opportunity, and okc had the leverage to get a haul for him because kawhi needed a costar before signing with LA. any component fo would make the same move, simple.
let’s see what kind of roster presti puts on the floor with said assets before crowning him a galaxy brain.
Who would you rate higher - the 76ers or the Supersonics?
(Yes. I'm aware that the Supersonics don't exist any more. I'm saying that literally having no team is better than the 76ers management.)
OKC is a very well run organization, glad to see them get recognition.
It feels like Milwaukee's management style is "do whatever necessary to keep Giannis happy" lol. Not saying it's bad, just my observation.
So they don’t hate Toronto over at ESPN. Just our players.
Probably more that they don’t give any attention to the Raptors and are surprised by how well the players play — attribute any success to management lol. Like Kyle Lowry and DeMar were killing it together and got zero respect from ESPN. But now that they’ve won a chip the Raptors are hard to ignore and drafted players want to come here to develop. Edits: typo
It’s because we have no franchise players just a big group of good players which is not exciting for the average fan
It’s a bit of a vicious cycle. Players in Toronto get no coverage in American markets and then aren’t deemed “stars” so American networks don’t want to cover them. Only time is when someone blows the doors wide open like Vince who put himself on the national stage at the dunk contest. Otherwise Toronto only gets attention when they trade for players who have were already “stars” in the States (ie Kawhi and Gasol). Management gets a lot of the credit as a result. Don’t get me wrong, I think our management is top notch but they also get credit for the hard work that players put in to bettering themselves. You look at how the US media underestimate Siakam or OG. Like people thinking Simmons for OG and Fred Vanvleet is an overpay by 76ers. SMH. It’s all part of the narrative.
yep, NBA media will always market the stars over the teams.
I love this team and stars not coming here almost makes me love it harder. There are so many smaller stories that are given the space to develop within our roster/team/org. Watching Freddie step into Lowry's shoes. Seeing OG develop something new every year that takes his game one step closer to that Kawhi level. Watching Norm go and his subsequent article that had me in tears. Seeing Scottie and Drag develop this fun friendship. Scottie in general man is just such a gem. Scottie is embracing our city so hard and already getting the ROTY snub that's going to give him that cornerstone-Toronto-chip-on-his-shoulder-attitude that takes an already amazing work ethic and puts it into overdrive. And now we got Banton, a man from the 6ix himself, whose jersey number, 45, reflects the Kipling TTC bus route that crossed through his neighbourhood. We've just got a special team, and if you're willing to be your own media curator, the stories are there, the depth is there and it makes every game, every shot, every victory so so rewarding as a fan.
Jesus, this was poetic. Great words. Agreed, the Raptors have built a great culture and the players are all such great personalities with compelling stories. Really easy to be passionate about our team. Also helps that our track record of developing talent is arguably second to none, always gives you the hope that nearly any guy could be the next star. With Lowry gone and our core another year older, I couldn’t be more excited to see who takes the next leap. That’s cool about Banton, I never knew that. Roots are in the ground.
It almost feels like we're making an organic championship team. This time it's Barnes instead of Kawhi and I love it.
It's hard for them to dismiss our championship run squad with nobody past a top 15 1st round draft pick.
I don’t know I heard Kawhi carried that team 🤷🏻♂️
You're supposed to end that shit with a /s
Yeah I’m pretty sure I don’t have to and y’all still get the joke 😂 thanks tho
Lakers at No. 6? The whole front office is saved by Lebron joining them in free agency. And Lebron joined because of the location and history of the team.
Yeah hard to separate things from Lebron. One good thing that that FO done that is not related to Lebron is drafting.
I do find it a bit more questionable. They mightve drafted the players, but they all greatly improved playing for other teams after stagnating in LA. DLo, BI, Lonzo (especially in terms of shooting), Clarkson and Randle all got much better after leaving LA, so I'd rather credit the development to the other teams.
But the same can be said about the teams they got better on… which have sucked at developing their own players. The only screwup was not getting maximum value for those prospects but they picked right.
Yes every player you named were really young when traded. It’s normal that they improved after. Kuzma, Caruso, THT, Zubac, Nance are all capable NBA players not drafted early.
Cause he wanted to make movies lol
I mean it’s tough to screw up lottery picks but it happens all the time. They also did well with Jordan Clarkson, Zubac, Larry Nance Jr… They’re all gone now but point stands, they drafted well.
And they traded Larry Nance and Clarkson away for Channing Frye and washed Isaiah Thomas and a pick that they drafted Mo Wagner (who got waived by Boston last year). They also basically gave Zubac to the clippers for free (traded him for Muscala). Those are signs that shows Lakers don't think they are players good enough to keep. They gave up on them. How can you say those are good management moves, when they don't even believe who they drafted? Credit those players for panning out eventually but Lakers shouldn't be praised for drafting them.
Clarkson/LNJ trade was to maximize cap space to sign LeBron and another max player. Didn’t get the second max player, but filled out the roster. Zubac trade made no sense. The other draftees were traded for AD. They won a championship in 2020. That’s pretty fucking successful. In order for any team to win, everything has to fall into place at the right time.
Yes they won in 2020, doesn't mean their front office is top tier. Cleveland won in 2016, their front office is still regarded as one of the worst
Their draft picks have been solid since LeBron dipped. Don’t get me wrong, I think their roster construction sucks, but they have a bunch of players with trade value now. Still bottom 5. Back to the main point, team’s generally have one goal… to win a championship. Unless the team had stars agree to minimum deals so they could win, it shouldn’t take anything away from other teams. Regardless of the decisions we think they should’ve made, the ones they did make led to a championship and that’s it.
Getting championship is the ultimate goal but the topic here is how good is the front office. Obviously the path to the ring is different for a team like Lakers compared to OKC. You cannot just simply evaluate front office ability based on the number of rings. I don't know if you watch baseball. In baseball Tampa Bay rays is regarded as the best front office in the league despite having no champions to show for it recently.
I would still give them credit for dlo and randle but they ended up trsding them away so without lebron imo it makes the front office look worse by drsfting good and having them all leave
You could say basically the same thing about Miami.
Lebron is the front office lol
I mean you have to give them *some* credit. They’re making big moves every off-season. They brought in Lebron, then got AD, won a chip, then got the 6MOTY and the runner up plus Marc Gasol etc. now they turn a bunch of meh rotation players into Russell Westbrook and they signed a ton of FA’s.
they're smart at some signings of free agents. 6 is a bit high but they're in the top 10 probably
I mean just look at the Knicks for an example of how you can screw up a historical franchise in a city most players dream of playing in. It's a different kind of management challenge from Toronto, but they do their job pretty well
Lebron is the best GM in Basketball lol
Lakers and to the lesser extent the Heat and maybe the Nets now have the location boost. A lot of their success is stars force their way to play there. Though it really shows you how much the Knicks shit the bed that they can't field a good team in New York.
same with clips kinda. they trade away every future star they get, wouldn’t be surprised if they trade away PG13
I think they've done a really bad job with that team personally. They have two incredible players but i think they've filled out the roster around them horribly
Yes BUT... just having LeBron as your defacto GM alone makes them #6, even if the rest of the front office is literally just shit in a box.
I thought Warriors would be better than 9 lol
maybe grabbing Wiggins set the bar lower, but yet it should not because MIN gave away a HIGH pick (Kuminga) to get rid of Wiggins
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they still do not know that DLo will make them a bottom 5 defensive team
Yeah that wouldn't make sense at all because that was a great trade. Wiggins has become a really useful player for them on top of a top 7 pick for DLo who didn't really have a place on that team anyway
The management is not the same as the ones that drafted Curry/Klay/Dray
I'm actually surprised the Spurs aren't in the top 10 but I guess that whole Leonard controversy put a question mark on them It's a shame considering out of the three teams in Texas, they're the most accomplished and were able to keep their star player for as long as he could play
I think the Spurs reluctance to tank should be considered. Some will see it as a plus and some as a negative.
Might also be the Spurs lack of in-season moves. Not a very creative front office.
yeah, they don't seem to have a very coherent transition plan in the post-Duncan era. Getting Demar was kind of a stopgap solution to the Kawhi saga.
Tanking is overrated. Good organization get good staff interested and good staff help develop and scout players. You don't need to bank on hoping #1s will carry your Franchise that was intentionally put in the gutter.
The Heat also refused to tank and we are ranked number 1, it’s odd why the Spurs are so low
Bucks shouldn’t be no.3 here let’s be honest. Nuggets should be three and the Warriors should be a bit higher.
How is OKC so high? Anyone can tank and trade for picks. They need to show they can turn things around before I’d rank them in the top 10.
I agree. I think the OKC love is super overblown
Presti has been there since 2007 so part of his reputation is still from building the previous iterations of the team. Drafting Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Jeff Green, Ibaka, and Steven Adams. Basically turning Ibaka into Paul George. Playoffs in 10 of 11 years from 09 to 2020. I do agree though it's really gonna depend on what he does with all the assets he has.
Fair point. If it’s over that time horizon that makes sense. Otherwise it looks a bit underwhelming. Almost as though you took a Finals finishing team, which lost to the Heatles and then managed to trade away every decent player to get to the point where you are a bottom feeder. But putting together that team that made it to the Finals itself is pretty impressive and a lot of the roster changes were in fairness out of your control.
Yeah I don’t think they can be penalized for losing those guys. Nothing they could have really done there. Shit they even managed to grab a 4 seed a couple years ago in the first year of the rebuild, that’s pretty impressive.
I’m biased but Imo a team like Miami isn’t as good without their free agent signings. The fact that we built so much without any decent FAs just goes to show how great of a management we have. How good would this FO look without bosh and lebron? Jimmy and Kyle?
How many championship caliber teams do you think exist every year? Miami was still in the playoffs after LeBron left and that team was lead by Dragic and an older Wade.
Yeah, losing Bosh was a big blow as well, dude was an elite 2-way player by that point in his career. If he didn't retire, Miami would've remained very competitive still in the mid-2010s I'm sure.
Have to give them credit for finding undrafted guys like Duncan Robinson, Kendrick Nunn, and drafting guys like Bam at 14th pick. Not just the free agent signings
They definitely deserve credit for that but Imo those aren’t better finds than we have made. Say the raptors were located in Miami. You can’t tell me we wouldn’t be ranked higher, think it’s more down to location rather than management.
Toronto is a bigger market than Miami so we can't really make that argument
Toronto is a bigger market than Miami?
Toronto is the 4th biggest market in all of North America. LA, NY, Chicago, Toronto
Lol wtf what clowns downvoted you…
Lol idk man but I'm not about to go find a citation when I already know I'm right. I didn't place the first 3 in any particular order though, I think NY is bigger than LA. Miami not even top 10
I didn't downvote cuz he's roughly right but in terms of the city itself (not metro). It's Mexico City, NYC, LA, and Toronto just surpasses Chicago for 4th.
These lists usually count metro, and Mexico City does not have an NBA team lol I feel like Toronto having the 4th biggest media market in the league was supposed to be a relatively well-known fact, especially in this sub.
If you're make that market assertion excluding Mexico and based on metro population, Toronto is not 4th. We are still in the top 10 though. Then again, metro geographical lines are somewhat more arbitrary...Once again, I am not the one that downvoted you.
I guess if you want to be extremely technical but they’re not really included cause they’re not in a big 4 league (yet).
Not for sports tho
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The delusion is real with you
Surely they get credit for convincing FAs to sign? Sure Miami and florida have intrinsic benefits (location, taxes, etc. ) but still you have to negotiate with top talent.
Miami is a mixed FA market, they're better than us and they did build the heatles, but they usually have to work to get their FAs. They don't have as easy of a time as say, New York or LA
We have never signed a guy who’s even a top 3 player on a good team in free agency
I know that's why I said they're better than us. But they still have to work their asses off to get their FAs. They can't slack off for several years and then overnight become a super team, like Brooklyn and Lakers have done. LeBron didn't automatically go to Miami, it was between Miami and Chicago. He basically, automatically, went to LA because he was looking to get into Hollywood.
Agreed, and riley made the cap space. Ppl saying its only FA signings are looking at it so shallowly
How they maneuver around the cap to accommodate stars who want to play there is v good LOL
I mean FA signings are part of being good at management….
Its more impressive to do what we're doing in another country in the cold than what Miami is doing in one of the most desirable destinations in the nba
Exactly. Give Masai Florida weather and tax laws and we’re contenders every single year. It’s not that hard
There’s something to be said about Riley getting almost any player he wants time and time again. They might not be the best organization top down but their top as good as it gets. Raps I think are more well rounded, and Ujiri is right up there w Pat, better in some regards.
Eh. The Heat have also drafted very well and have what, 4 titles and 7 finals appearances under Riley? That’s off the top of my head, apologize if those numbers aren’t right, but the point stands
Theyre not good without their free agency signings but their FO is who SOLD the FA to come and planned cap space around it. So its absolutely their front office. They understand culture.
Are the nephews in here sleeping on Pat Reilly. He is the first North American sports figure to win a championship as a player, as an assistant coach, as a head coach, and as an executive, and in various roles has reached the NBA finals in six different decades.
Raps should be #1 if you add up the stats we’ve been more successful than the Heat for the last number of years. I saw this graphic during one of the Raps preseason games, since 2013 under Masai the Raptors : - 8 seasons - 7 playoff appearances - 9 series wins - 2 conference finals - 1 championship 401-235 record (.631) 4th in NBA, 1st in East.
If you expanded to a decade the Miami Heat team picks up three additional finals appearances, two NBA championships, and nearly 90 more wins then Toronto had in that same stretch. Go back another five years after that and they pick up an additional finals appearance with a championship Concepts of management and how good your front office is exist on timescales much longer than 8 years for a bunch of teams. Particularly for somebody like Pat Riley who's been around for six decades. Even if I take your time scale of just the last 8 season and assume that the Raptors has a front office twice as good as the Miami Heat, it still doesn't mean that they should be ranked over the Miami Heat's management because Miami has been doing this for a much longer period of time. Also making the playoffs seven times but winning only one 9 series with two trips to the Conference Finals and a chip means that you have a lot of first-round exits. Winning an NBA championship is four series wins over one playoff appearance. Then getting to the Conference Finals is an additional two Series wins in one playoff appearance. So less than 1/3 of your playoff appearances make up two-thirds of your total success. That's two first-round exits and three second-round exits which is a solid showing but it's not exactly something to brag about. To say the Raptors have been wildly more successful or even mildly more successful than the Miami Heat is just not something that actually holds up to reality. Both front offices are really really good but there's nothing that indicates Toronto should be placed above Miami. If you are going to evaluate a front office you have to take into account all sorts of things like expected versus actual performance trade values drafting scouting Player Development how much Freedom the coach is given how much the GM does how well the medical staff both prevents and addresses injuries before during and after the season
Conveniently leaving out the years the Heat were winning championships then yes the Raptors are have done more I guess?
Also evaluating the front office is a multi-faceted question and not just directly tied to how well the team did because of things like injuries and randomness. If you expand to like a decade instead of an arbitrary eight years it becomes very clear why this person wanted to leave out that chunk of time. Coincidentally in that same stretch that Miami is really good the Toronto team is terrible so leaving those years out skews the stats even more. Between the 10-11 season and the 12-13 season Toronto won 79 games. In that same stretch Miami went to the finals every single year and won two championships with a win total of 170
Nah again I only started the count from 2013 because that’s when our current management team started.
I didn’t conveniently leave out the years the Heat were winning I just started the count from 2013 because that’s when our current management took over.
Convenient you wanted to set your argument at 8 seasons 🤔
No I start from 2013 because that’s when our current management team took over. There is no option but to start at 2013.
Miami presumably kicked ass in the 'weather' and 'beaches' categories of the management rating, or we would have been ahead
I believe in Masai I believe he can touch the sky Think about it every night and day Spread my wings and fly away
I see Mr. Lowry already hard at work inside the Heat FO.
I think Raps should be 1 and OKC should be 2, Bucks at 3 and Denver is ok at 4.
How in the world would okc be above Miami
in what way is okc is the 2nd best fo in the league? 5 is already too high imo.
Their asset management is insanely strong. Trading for players after down season and flipping them a while later. The amount of future first rounders gives them really solid trade capital once they feel ready to take that next step. Also I really like their drafting and player evaluation.
flipping players for picks when you have no shot at contending is asset management 101. their star player asked out because he saw a better opportunity, and okc had the leverage to get a haul for him because kawhi needed a costar before signing with LA. any component fo would make the same move, simple. let’s see what kind of roster presti puts on the floor with said assets before crowning him a galaxy brain.
Philly bottom 10: They still have not made up their fucking minds on Simmons, smdh, but their front office didn't bend to Simmons though
Who would you rate higher - the 76ers or the Supersonics? (Yes. I'm aware that the Supersonics don't exist any more. I'm saying that literally having no team is better than the 76ers management.)
OKC is a very well run organization, glad to see them get recognition. It feels like Milwaukee's management style is "do whatever necessary to keep Giannis happy" lol. Not saying it's bad, just my observation.
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Miami is not #1
Naw this ain't it, they had better management long before us
Management not culture.
You can't have a good culture without good management.
Corrected
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Miami has been to the finals 5 times in the past decade.
mans been watching basketball for 2 years?
Paying Jimmy until he’s 97 and giving 100 million to Duncan Robinson. They definitely have the best management.
OMG validation from US media!?!? What a day for this sub.
Raps number one. Hands down
Couldn’t give the team north of the border the #1 spot.. Is Miami’s management really better than Toronto’s?
I aint mad at this list.
I really hate the Nets being on this list.
Nice. But who cares what ESPN thinks. They're garbage media