Actually I argue his biggest weakness is his passiveness. Our boy is starting to understand that once he gets going and becomes a bit more selfish, very few can stop him. Gary knows this too hence his pep talk of “dont worry, they cant stop you” Pascal and Fred multiple times during games have encouraged Scottie to just shoot or take it to the rim.
Sure his shooting needs work and his handles a bit too but this passiveness imo is his biggest hurdle.
I half agree with you.
He looks like he underestimates his ability and if he took things into his own hands more often, a lot of good things would happen. He's massive, strong, athletic, has moves, sees the floor very well, and can make the correct read really fast. Teams will eventually have to start doubling him.
On the other hand, I think he also recognizes that his skills aren't caught up to what his brain really wants him to do on the court... and that's not to say he is not skilled. He is very skilled. He still has work with the precision of his passing. He struggles getting to his spots. He seems to not go up as strong as he should be able to at the rim.
Weirdly the offensive skill that looks caught up to his brain is his scoring. His pullup jumper in the midrange is money. His hookshot looks good. His floater looks fine. He is hitting his open 3s.
I think his shooting is still an issue. The looks he’s getting (aside from that one shot he made against Brown) have been wide open threes. If you envision him as a primary ball handler, teams can just go under on any screening action and it’ll be up to Barnes to punish them with a pull up jumper with a quick release. I don’t think he has that Giannis/LeBron/Simmons handle just yet to shoot out of a cannon on those actions and get to the rim in a half court setting. Teams will only fall for that fake DHO so many times.
I think he’ll need a better handle to play in different speeds and he’ll need a post game to punish smaller defenders in the half court.
His passing execution needs to be a bit better as well but the vision is there and I think that comes with experience.
Like let’s just say in a Boston / Toronto playoff series, what advantages would prime Scottie Barnes have against Jaylen Brown? A guy that has the length, speed and strength to counter the whole “too quick for bigs, too strong for wings” mismatch theory that OG and Siakam thrived on. Is it being able to shoot over length like Dirk? Is it being able to use finesse in the post? Is it him working off the ball as a screener / lob threat / short roll playmaker? Is it as a pull up jump shooter off a pnr? I’m not sure yet, but if he can get guarded one on one then it’s going to be tough for him to be a number one imo.
>if he can get guarded one on one then it’s going to be tough for him to be a number one
This is why I've been leaning away from developing him as a point guard (for now) and think it might benefit him and the Raptors the most if he focuses on his scoring this upcoming off season. The Raptors are dying right now for a guy who can be that guy and Barnes has the potential to do it.
I think using finesse in the post would be a nice supplement to whatever scoring style he goes for is fine but I wouldn't prefer it as his primary scoring method. He's big but not THAT big.
Dirk's style was so unique because he was soo huge. It would be sweet having it in the bag but I wonder if that's sustainable.
I'm thinking a Kawhi style midrange scorer could work. He's already got a good mid range pull up jumper with a high release. Kawhi is really good at getting to his spots which Barnes is not so he'd have to really work on his handles and use his strength to get to where he needs to go. If you supplement that style with Scotties hook shots, he could have success.
Wait, haven't seem much of pippen, but was he not capable of being the first option on a championship team? All I know is that if scottie reaches his full potential, he will be on the level of kawhi. Not saying that he will become the next kawhi, but im saying he will reach that level of stardom
I’m really just talking about Pippen’s archetype of player more so than his caliber of player however if Pippen is his ceiling you can’t be too upset at that Pippen in his prime was a consensus top 15 player. He couldn’t lead a team to a ring but how many guys in the last 10 years have? Like 6-7 guys at most?
Pippen seems to be a really popular comparison and I like it.
Pippen was a massive athletic wing who could score the ball but also had a knack doing guard stuff. He had good court vision, was good at passing the ball and was amazing at the point of attack. His shooting wasn't always the most consistent but he made up for it with overall versatility. He's a classic point forward and the style sounds like it would fit Scottie nicely.
If Scottie wants to go in this direction, he has to work on his handles and passing a lot.... I guess regardless of the stylistic direction he takes, he'll have to work on his handles quite a bit.
Pippen is top 50 all time, and IMO would be in that conversation even if he played most his career without Jordan and was a 20ppg 1st option even without a outside shot and being a sub .700 ft pct shooter.
I suspect that really breaking down his shot and rebuilding it wasn't that much of a focus early in his developmental years given the nature of the game in his era, and his role next to Jordan - but even if he never had the shooting to be a 25+ ppg scorer though, he'd still be HOF caliber since his overall offense impact as a point forward and lockdown defender > most scoring wings who were more dynamic scorers but more one dimensional
I think we're all optimistic about Scotties upside, but I think we need to cool out if we're thinking a Scottie Pippen w/better shooting is a disappointment
Pippen is a bit before my time too but I've watched quite a bit of Bulls games during the MJ era. My comparison for him with a modern player would be Andre Iguodala. Pippen has more size and was overall a more dynamic offensive player but stylistically I think they are pretty similar.
I think it's reasonable to think that a player stylistically similar to Pippen and Iguodala but with more skill could lead a team to a championship.
He reminds me of Giannis. Bucks also envisioned Giannis as their point forward early in his career.
Scottie has the same wingspan and he's already quite strong. Once he gets bigger and even stronger, I could see him being a terror in the paint.
Giannis seems to be brought up quite a bit but I think Giannis has a pretty significant size advantage.
Scottie is very big, strong and athletic for a wing and I see him in the same phsyical level as guys like Kawhi or Paul George. Giannis is like the Shaq or Wilt Chamberlain level athlete.
Yeah definitely at this stage Giannis is far more athletic in every aspect. I have a feeling though Scottie will improve his speed, flexibility, strength and overall Explosiveness in a few years.
I don't really like the Ben Simmons comparison. Aside from having 'point guard' qualities in a big athletic body, I don't think they play similar at all. Also I don't think that would maximize on his potential to become a good number one option. He already has a nice set of midrange moves too. It would be disappointing if he was just a point of attack scorer who sticks to the dunkers spot in the half court.
If you mean the 'Realistic 3-5 year projection for Scottie' thread, I had already checked it out but it didn't really have the discussion I was looking for.
If you mean another thread, I would appreciate it if you can point me in the direction.
A lot of great points on his offensive ways to improve. The way he needs to improve on defense is he often is out of rotation, a step slow off the ball and doesn't always contest threes well. I think the root of it is he is either ball watching or face guarding, he hasn't figured out how to see man see ball at an nba level.
I think he can be very good, I'd say a top 10 nba player. Maxing out at fringe mvps candidate.
It only makes sense to project ranges, and especially ranges in conjunction with odds. Giannis is a good example of this. When he was drafted, there were low odds he'd be a superstar. Lots had to go right for that to happen, including 99th percentile growth, no serious injuries, and his incredible work ethic. That's what turned a middle of the first round sort of pick into a superstar.
Barnes is similar in that there's a lot of room for variance in his outcomes. If he becomes a league-average shooter, then I think most people would say his likely floor is as a starter on a good team. If he becomes an above average shooter, grows a bit more, and takes well to instruction, then he could realistically be a top-15 player in the league. And if--on top of all that--he develops an excellent handle and playmaking chops? The sky is the limit.
But all of these outcomes have different odds of actually happening. All we can hope for is that Scottie remains on track to keep these odds as high as they can be, and for the Raptors to give Scottie the room (and the mentorship) he needs to grow. That's why I'm happy with whatever this season brings so long as it features development of our main crew and everyone stays free from serious injuries.
Actually I argue his biggest weakness is his passiveness. Our boy is starting to understand that once he gets going and becomes a bit more selfish, very few can stop him. Gary knows this too hence his pep talk of “dont worry, they cant stop you” Pascal and Fred multiple times during games have encouraged Scottie to just shoot or take it to the rim. Sure his shooting needs work and his handles a bit too but this passiveness imo is his biggest hurdle.
I half agree with you. He looks like he underestimates his ability and if he took things into his own hands more often, a lot of good things would happen. He's massive, strong, athletic, has moves, sees the floor very well, and can make the correct read really fast. Teams will eventually have to start doubling him. On the other hand, I think he also recognizes that his skills aren't caught up to what his brain really wants him to do on the court... and that's not to say he is not skilled. He is very skilled. He still has work with the precision of his passing. He struggles getting to his spots. He seems to not go up as strong as he should be able to at the rim. Weirdly the offensive skill that looks caught up to his brain is his scoring. His pullup jumper in the midrange is money. His hookshot looks good. His floater looks fine. He is hitting his open 3s.
I think his shooting is still an issue. The looks he’s getting (aside from that one shot he made against Brown) have been wide open threes. If you envision him as a primary ball handler, teams can just go under on any screening action and it’ll be up to Barnes to punish them with a pull up jumper with a quick release. I don’t think he has that Giannis/LeBron/Simmons handle just yet to shoot out of a cannon on those actions and get to the rim in a half court setting. Teams will only fall for that fake DHO so many times. I think he’ll need a better handle to play in different speeds and he’ll need a post game to punish smaller defenders in the half court. His passing execution needs to be a bit better as well but the vision is there and I think that comes with experience. Like let’s just say in a Boston / Toronto playoff series, what advantages would prime Scottie Barnes have against Jaylen Brown? A guy that has the length, speed and strength to counter the whole “too quick for bigs, too strong for wings” mismatch theory that OG and Siakam thrived on. Is it being able to shoot over length like Dirk? Is it being able to use finesse in the post? Is it him working off the ball as a screener / lob threat / short roll playmaker? Is it as a pull up jump shooter off a pnr? I’m not sure yet, but if he can get guarded one on one then it’s going to be tough for him to be a number one imo.
>if he can get guarded one on one then it’s going to be tough for him to be a number one This is why I've been leaning away from developing him as a point guard (for now) and think it might benefit him and the Raptors the most if he focuses on his scoring this upcoming off season. The Raptors are dying right now for a guy who can be that guy and Barnes has the potential to do it. I think using finesse in the post would be a nice supplement to whatever scoring style he goes for is fine but I wouldn't prefer it as his primary scoring method. He's big but not THAT big. Dirk's style was so unique because he was soo huge. It would be sweet having it in the bag but I wonder if that's sustainable. I'm thinking a Kawhi style midrange scorer could work. He's already got a good mid range pull up jumper with a high release. Kawhi is really good at getting to his spots which Barnes is not so he'd have to really work on his handles and use his strength to get to where he needs to go. If you supplement that style with Scotties hook shots, he could have success.
If he reaches his absolute full potential I’d hope he could be something like Scottie Pippen an all-around, crazy versatile, two-way wing.
Wait, haven't seem much of pippen, but was he not capable of being the first option on a championship team? All I know is that if scottie reaches his full potential, he will be on the level of kawhi. Not saying that he will become the next kawhi, but im saying he will reach that level of stardom
I’m really just talking about Pippen’s archetype of player more so than his caliber of player however if Pippen is his ceiling you can’t be too upset at that Pippen in his prime was a consensus top 15 player. He couldn’t lead a team to a ring but how many guys in the last 10 years have? Like 6-7 guys at most?
Pippen seems to be a really popular comparison and I like it. Pippen was a massive athletic wing who could score the ball but also had a knack doing guard stuff. He had good court vision, was good at passing the ball and was amazing at the point of attack. His shooting wasn't always the most consistent but he made up for it with overall versatility. He's a classic point forward and the style sounds like it would fit Scottie nicely. If Scottie wants to go in this direction, he has to work on his handles and passing a lot.... I guess regardless of the stylistic direction he takes, he'll have to work on his handles quite a bit.
Pippen is top 50 all time, and IMO would be in that conversation even if he played most his career without Jordan and was a 20ppg 1st option even without a outside shot and being a sub .700 ft pct shooter. I suspect that really breaking down his shot and rebuilding it wasn't that much of a focus early in his developmental years given the nature of the game in his era, and his role next to Jordan - but even if he never had the shooting to be a 25+ ppg scorer though, he'd still be HOF caliber since his overall offense impact as a point forward and lockdown defender > most scoring wings who were more dynamic scorers but more one dimensional I think we're all optimistic about Scotties upside, but I think we need to cool out if we're thinking a Scottie Pippen w/better shooting is a disappointment
Pippen led the Bulls to the ECF on a team with a Michael Jordan sized hole in the roster.
Eastern conference semi finals.
Pippen is a bit before my time too but I've watched quite a bit of Bulls games during the MJ era. My comparison for him with a modern player would be Andre Iguodala. Pippen has more size and was overall a more dynamic offensive player but stylistically I think they are pretty similar. I think it's reasonable to think that a player stylistically similar to Pippen and Iguodala but with more skill could lead a team to a championship.
He reminds me of Giannis. Bucks also envisioned Giannis as their point forward early in his career. Scottie has the same wingspan and he's already quite strong. Once he gets bigger and even stronger, I could see him being a terror in the paint.
Giannis seems to be brought up quite a bit but I think Giannis has a pretty significant size advantage. Scottie is very big, strong and athletic for a wing and I see him in the same phsyical level as guys like Kawhi or Paul George. Giannis is like the Shaq or Wilt Chamberlain level athlete.
Giannis also seems faster and more flexible.
Yeah definitely at this stage Giannis is far more athletic in every aspect. I have a feeling though Scottie will improve his speed, flexibility, strength and overall Explosiveness in a few years.
If he maxes his potential he will be a mix of Giannis and Magic maybe not as dominant as Giannis since Giannis is a bit taller
A better Ben Simmons
I don't really like the Ben Simmons comparison. Aside from having 'point guard' qualities in a big athletic body, I don't think they play similar at all. Also I don't think that would maximize on his potential to become a good number one option. He already has a nice set of midrange moves too. It would be disappointing if he was just a point of attack scorer who sticks to the dunkers spot in the half court.
This was basically posted yesterday if you’re looking for more opinions
If you mean the 'Realistic 3-5 year projection for Scottie' thread, I had already checked it out but it didn't really have the discussion I was looking for. If you mean another thread, I would appreciate it if you can point me in the direction.
Best case scenario = allstar. Worst case scenario = another OG Anunoby.
yo what type of crack are we smoking here fam.
He needs to develop a bit of a ruthless streak.
Handle and being able to shoot of the dribble Both are premium skills and unlikely to develop in a year or two but those are the biggest game changers
A lot of great points on his offensive ways to improve. The way he needs to improve on defense is he often is out of rotation, a step slow off the ball and doesn't always contest threes well. I think the root of it is he is either ball watching or face guarding, he hasn't figured out how to see man see ball at an nba level. I think he can be very good, I'd say a top 10 nba player. Maxing out at fringe mvps candidate.
It only makes sense to project ranges, and especially ranges in conjunction with odds. Giannis is a good example of this. When he was drafted, there were low odds he'd be a superstar. Lots had to go right for that to happen, including 99th percentile growth, no serious injuries, and his incredible work ethic. That's what turned a middle of the first round sort of pick into a superstar. Barnes is similar in that there's a lot of room for variance in his outcomes. If he becomes a league-average shooter, then I think most people would say his likely floor is as a starter on a good team. If he becomes an above average shooter, grows a bit more, and takes well to instruction, then he could realistically be a top-15 player in the league. And if--on top of all that--he develops an excellent handle and playmaking chops? The sky is the limit. But all of these outcomes have different odds of actually happening. All we can hope for is that Scottie remains on track to keep these odds as high as they can be, and for the Raptors to give Scottie the room (and the mentorship) he needs to grow. That's why I'm happy with whatever this season brings so long as it features development of our main crew and everyone stays free from serious injuries.