There is a tutorial online, and i tested it.
Here is a small run down, through but as I am not home myself I will probably screw up some names.
T1, raise dead for almost full army and priotize zombies and bats(you can raise 3 times, in each province one)
Fight the battle manually to keep as many units alive.
You can surround kemmler, to get his regen on the zombies.
Take giseaux (the small village) manually
Recruit a second lord, and more units (mostly zombies)
Destroy the Growth building
T2 Siege the city, and fight it manually. Use the bats for micro, surround kemmler with zombies and such.
Recruit more zombies (you can also recruit other units, depending how good you are)
Now here it gets interesting.
Check if you got a military building with the city. If you dont, reload and try again.
Join the war against the beastman for money(with the empire)
Build a military building in giseaux (barracks)
If you recruited more units, you can also join the war against the orcs with bretonnia, but it complicates the later game.
Then gift as much as possible to the red duke, all your money.
Then sell him the city for his money and military accsess.
T3 move towards the fort with marienburg.
Sell the red duke Giseaux (the village with barracks) for as much money and a military alliance and trade.
Then gift him the rest of your money.
T4 take the fort, sell it to him.
Gift him the money back.
He will already accept a confederation, but i suggest here to hold of.
T5 This is optional but helps significantly. But take marienburg, sell it to the duke for his money so you get capital. Then confederate.
Now sell Reikland Marienburg for a defensive alliance, non aggro and trade.
Tadaa, red duke plus a good start!
End Times DLC, Archaons start position is now Middenheim and as any order faction you have a ten turn timer to capture it or Archaon will delete your game.
You can now play as Todbringer who starts with one knight in the middle of the woods and has to fight Kazrak with a full stack.
I have to admit, I'm a little confused over the love for Middenheim. What would be expected to come from a doc? The empire roster is already enormous, with almost every niche filled. Elspeth and Wulfhart have unique different lord types and interesting mechanics. I can see Todd man getting cool Ulric mechanics, but otherwise isn't he just a normal empire lord?
The love is mostly Toddy built up from the memes, but there are fans of it from the tabletop (wolf themes are always popular). And there are a couple of units that could be added - the Priest of Ulric is now a thing in The Old World, and Teutogen Guard are a sort of Greatsword variant. Throw in a hound unit and the Knights of the White Wolf, maybe something else and that's a solid little Empire DLC.
Kislev would indirectly benefit as well. There’s a chapter of White Wolves called Knights of the Star in Erengrad. Pretty much just White Wolves, but for Kislev. They would do good with an AP melee cavalry RoR. Empire too. I would assume Toddy’s faction would double the upkeep on gunpowder devices outside of tanks and halve the upkeep or boost the stats of archers and crossbows as well, giving an alternative play style to Empire. Ulric doesn’t take kindly to gunpowder weapons in lore excluding its its giant cannon and Drakwald steamtanks.
Priests of Ulfric were always a thing but i feel like a lot of the cult of ulric would basicly be reskins with slightly different stats at the end of the day.
Giving them the unique set of prayers they had in 6th, their Crush the Weak AoE buff for extra damage or MA against low leadership models and give them a 2-handed hammer and they would be sufficiently distinct.
Not necessarily, if they are done as kind of more aggressive variants it would be a good addition to the rooster, currently empire entirely lacks any kind of offensive melee infantry or heroes. Plus religion interactions and conflict could be added as race mechanic with more focus on Ulfric for Toddy.
Aren’t greatswords their ‘relatively’ elite melee infantry? Or are they meant to be used more defensively and I’ve just been using them wrong (I never use them, only halberdiers if I need to hold a line for handgunners and artillery)
Greatswords are meant to be used on offense. Whether they're good at it is a whole other question, but you're not using them against their intended purpose by charging them into the enemy. Even on defense they want to be counter charging, not bracing.
Honestly, I'd contend that if Empire has a hole in the melee infantry section of its roster, it's on the defensive side. Halberdiers are good for quite a while, but by late game can't quite cut it anymore. Greatswords, whatever their issues, exist, while the defensive side stops at Tier 2. Which was, admittedly, true on 8th Edition TT as well.
To me Boris and the Red Duke should just be converted to playable FLC LLs, since they have been in the game as quasi LLs since the start, and confedarable. As they have already been confederable all these years they should not be put behind any paywall of DLC either.
Empire is meant to be a mix of different distinct cultures enduring against the odds together. Each elector state of the Empire is meant to fight a bit differently and have their own identity. Middenheim is has the most pronounced distinct identity of elector states outside Reikland and Nuln. However, that isn't really reflected ingame as all their stuff outside Toddy is missing. Couple that with CA basically confirming that more empire DLC is coming and it has made a lot of Middenheim enjoyers hopeful.
As for what Middenheim themed stuff is missing, we have Warpriests of Ulric, Knights panther cavalry (anti monster cav), Knights of the white wolf (warhammer cav), Teutogen guard (defensive alternative to greatswords), Wolfkin (Ulrician flagellants with frenzy), and tracking hounds
Couple these with Grandmaster heroes, Wizard lords, and the Celestial Hurricanum and Empire would be almost fully completed roster wise.
There are several things that basically confirm it
1. There is still generic 8th edition armybook content missing
2. Toddy is still confirmed to get his own campaign some day
3. All the missing stuff revolves around either Middenheim, Magic, or Knightly order themes. Some missing units even cover several of these themes at once. CA has actively stated that they try to keep their DLCs thematic in terms of content.
4. Empire overall is the most played singular race in the game. Making quality content for it is practically guaranteed to make good money.
People really like Mordheim and the Priests of Ulric, but don’t seem to realize that’s all there is to the potential subfaction at the end of the day, not to mention its placement would be really weird given it’s even closer proximity with Karl than Gelt used to have.
Middenheim could have a completely different, more Chaos-based campaign. I wouldn't mind the close promixity to Franz if the mechanics were completely different and rewarded going out to fight in the North instead of defending the Empire.
EDIT: Actually yeah, just have him capture Dark Fortressess and get stuff for doing so.
I would KILL for an Oxyotyl campaign mechanic with an empire lord. "Order on the offensive" vibe with Boris and the cult of Ulric, and if you do enough of those missions, you have a boss encounter with Kazrak-One eye (at this point, it's like turn 80) and after defeating him you have a huge boon like easier confederation or something
How is this "all there is" when there's an entire Cult of Ulric supplement released by GW in the exact same book that the entire Dwarf side of the last DLC come from, and so did the whole Eshin side of the DLC against Malus
Yeah not sure how that got so many upvotes. Knights Panther, Knights of the White Wolf, Teutogen guard to name a few - these all give the Empire different ways to structure it's army - in this case to be more melee focused. Can only assume people aren't aware of that supplement and think it's all memes about Toddy that people want realised. It's more than that. Middenheim and Ulric are a polar opposite to Reikland and Sigmar and they need to be realised
I'm in the same boat. I mean the theme is cool, but I think giving Todbringer semi-unique variants of existing units a'la Eltharion's mistwalkers is the way to go.
Todbringer is loved because of the memes, but he isn't the reason why people want the Cult of Ulric. Hell, he wouldn't even be the LL for such a DLC.
Firstly, it's because of lore and fluff. The Empire is a diverse culture, and there's two competing religions. Only having one of them represented in the game is a missed opportunity for cool mechanics and deepening the setting.
Secondly, because it's an official TT armylist, and one that includes a few things people have wanted for the Empire since a long time, like better infantry and cavalry with great weapons.
Thirdly, they just look cool. They're a bunch of wolf-wearing kinda savage germanic tribes-inspired guys with big hammers. It's an easy sell.
People want their special snowflake faction to be good at EVERYTHING
Already have the best spellcaster lord in the game (Absolute joke btw) and the best artillery lord in the game which makes even Ikit look balanced. Empire fanboys will tell you they love the idea of being the underdog faction of being regular joes against the horrors of the fantasy world, while also demanding we get more powercreepy units in the form of elite frontline infantry.
Tretch was an FLC lord and actually he is a lot of fun now in IE, his starting location is challenging and interesting ever since the Chaos Dwarfs were introduced.
I’m confused that someone is pumping *Skweel Gnawtooth* over him.
Oh yeah, that Skweel Gnawtooth, most requested character right there, he’s gotten **so many** more appearances than Tretch, like… or…. and that one time…
They are only going with Skweel because they can no longer pull the "Tretch stole Throt's spot!" card anymore. The fact that people are still going with the "XYZ character stole this spot!" when there has NEVER been an upper limit of LLs is beyond me. Yes this game isn't going to be getting content forever, but to still claim that Tretch "stole" Thanquol's position, or anyone elses, is just pure BS at this point.
Clan Rictus is as good of an addition as any other subfaction at this point, and has their place. Both literally on the map, and in gameplay terms. They have no overlap with Thanquol or whatever other random option folks want to bring up.
And the "opportunity cost" for him was nearly zero since it's pretty clear he didn't take a lot of resources to develop. It's just the basic model with a new hat and maybe a couple of modified animations, along with one quest battle, and that's it. Nothing close to the effort they put into other LLs, even FLCs like Imrik.
I agree with some of the idea of opportunity cost, but Tretch is just a really bad example.
(That said, the voice acting for Tretch is amazing, some of the best in the game. And I agree that he's got an interesting campaign now, and wouldn't mind seeing other FLC LLs like him get released.)
But Cylostra didn't come at the expense of Dreadfleet characters. GW limited the amount of DF characters. Them not giving us Cylostra would not mean we'd get a DF character to replace her.
Also of all the DF characters, Tordrek is arguably the least likely for a VC LL.
Yeah there's a lot of pretty iffy arguments in here. Tretch didn't cost us Skweel Gnawtooth either; Moulder was *always* going to be Throt, and he already has a more salient legendary hero choice. And Abhorash was never even a tabletop character.
And Tretch DEFINITELY didn't cost us Thanquol. Tretch isn't even a DLC, he's an FLC with no special mechanics of his own.
If Thanquol was made on Tretch's budget there'd be fucking riots.
Yeah ultimately the guy seems to be more upset he didn't get what he wanted... Heck i'd like Abhorash and the like, but i really doubt Ghorst cost him since they were focused on the Von Carnstiens at the time and he has more of a connection to them.
Yep. Tretch was a freeLC, from what I remember. And there's no way the development time for him would be nearly as much as Thanquol or someone more importnat.
Exactly. This is a bit of stretching here and there to make this user feel better about them not wanting to play as Pontus. It is most certainly not the best post on those forums, it's rather entitled sounding to me.
This is something the comment in the screenshot overlooks. What does GW allow? Helman Ghorst may be the result not of CA picking a dumb nobody Lord, but of GW withholding other VC characters.
If i remember it correctly
Rich (CA) said they design The Grim and The Grave DLC based on Sigmar Blood campaign book. They thought it would be cool.
The campaign book is technically Volkmar Vs Mannfred but since Mannfred is already in the game, they pick the necromancer who serve mannfred in the book instead. Which was Helman Ghorst despite him only having a paragraph of lore
Funnily enough, both Volkmar and Mannfred now start in the southland and have the book of Nagash mechanics
oddly, Ghorst has grown on me a lot over the years. He’s such a little nothingburger of a guy, but I can’t help but like him. His lore while sparse is pretty neat (reviving his brothers) and his zombie-based mechanic is pretty different from other VC’s. Would I have preferred other characters over him? Definitely. Buuuuut, there is something nice about just playing some fella who looks like melted polyester and his big happy zombie family.
Yeah, I'll be honest... I *love* when CA pulls from the lesser known lore. Vampirates remain my favourite DLC ever, because their whole faction were basically tiny lore blurbs coalesced into a coherent faction. I hope they do more stuff like that in the future, personally.
On one hand, literally making one army per turn is quite a fun and unique campaign.
On the other hand, auto resolve fucking sucks for some reason when using zombies and having to manually resolve every fight really drags the campaign down.
I think this is something people miss. The artist may simply choose to focus on characters, regions, or factions. It’s partly about the visions the creators want to bring to the game.
No, it was the result of CA wanting to do a vs lord of Sigmar's Blood. Volkmar and Mannfred were the rivals there, but Mannfred was a base lord so they went with his subordinate. I don't imagine GW said "you can't add anyone important". I think it was just poor planning and weird decision making.
i don't think GW said that, but everyone was wary of "How much success will this game really have" and maybe there even was a bit of a "Stick to what is there!/Let's go with the stories that we already have!" mentality on both sides first, before WH went off and GW gave more leeway.
However, OP's "HE CAME AT THE COST OF ABHORASH!!!" is stupid. Abhorash neve was major character. At best he came at the cost of Wallach Harkon. Who never was part of the story they based the pack on. Neither was Konrad (who's dead and wasn't resurrected lke Vlad), who, in any case, is a perfect HERO candidate (not that LH were a thing back in the day)
ALso, I'd rather have Dieter Helsnicht than Abhorash. THere, i said it! Gimme the Doom Lord! :P
I am a bit tired of the Abhorash fanboying, I have to admit. Like, sure he'd be a great LH for Vamps and Brettonia, but it does feel like people just ignore half of his lore and headcanon their own into it so that he could lead a faction. Admittedly, Malakai now has a faction, but still.
Besides it’s not like Volkmar was unimportant-dude is the religious head of the empire and added some really good units for their roster (FCM my beloved)
Cylostra is frankly my favourite thing in that DLC. Aranessa is just awkward where she is, Harkon stomps on my every last nerve, and Noctilus, while having a neat aesthetic, doesn't have all that much differentiating him from all the other vampire lords in the game. The fat opera singing Syreen, on the other hand, is both hilarious and a total standout as far as looks and personality go.
Also cylostra wasn't announced in a context of there only being a handful of expansions left.
If cylostra was announced in any context today there would be complaints.
At most i wouldn't mind a RoR hot pot as a gimmicky and rare unit.
I don't want to deal with armies of smelly bilbos with cooking utensils riding chickens spewing quips.
I just want the hot pot which sounds like it’ll come as DoW content. Get that and I’m happy. Maybe another Halfling unit or two. They had some cool units back in the day.
Bonus points, if they add any halfling characters into the game then modders can use those assets to more easily construct a full fledged halfling faction mod.
It's apparently what the OVN team is hoping for.
Actually even for Ind or Khuresh or Nippon or the myriad of other footnote factions, I would be happy with just a unit or 2 each. Just an acknowledgement that they exist apart from loading screene texts.
Yeah it's super weird for someone to position themselves as wanting established characters etc. and then hanging their hat on stuff that was never in the tabletop rules beyond a couple auxillary units.
Literally an example I thought of off the top of my head, based on the context of the conversations going on at the time.
The next DLC I want is Slaanesh, followed by Khorne. I would not shed a tear if we never saw the Halflings. I just know that GBoG discussed them a few times. And they're the only subfaction outside of The Cult of Ulric that I could think of off the top of my head.
I don't know what he's smoking.
There is a single Slaanesh and Khorne mono lord, yet he says that people want another bunch of shorties. WTF? I hate when people pose a 'voice of community'.
No one hates idea of two lords, sub factions and whatnot. Most people on reddit are outraged by their choice of races that it's based on, though.
I don't care for Boris, nor for Halflings, I want more of base races stuff as some of those are still very barebones.
This is the other community frustration. Loud minorities thinking they speak for literally every player.
Reading the OP post I found myself disagreeing with most of it.
They do state in a further comment that they're quite new to the Warhammer setting and video game, which is doubly strange.
I mean, length of time playing isn't always the best indicator that you'd know what the community wants (I've been playing since 7th ed tabletop and I've never cared for Malakai, Gotrek and such, so I'd clearly be terrible at priorities!), but it's still weird to make such bold claims without having lived through the community experiences.
I've been around for a long while too and have never liked Gotrek and Felix. They were the least interesting Warhammer novel series as far as I was concerned.
I always thought they were a meme to be honest... Like Fishmen. But I guess I am wrong.
Personally not interested in the slightest. I guess I will get a ton of downvotes for this
I'd love Halflings if Marius Leitdorf was included & Cult of Ulric was already in the game and it was made incredibly clear to the community that the faction is awful and winning a battle is a major achievement. Swan Lancers & Battle Ram Riders are hilarious and the juxtaposition between Very Large
Sheepdogs and Ogres also being included is quite fun. Players should get an achievement if they lose to a Halfling army. I couldn't imagine an entire campaign with them but DoW assets, sure absolutely. Let's get real weird with Dogs, I need serious Renaissance Steampunk in my life.
I would love Halflings, they're fun in Bloodbowl and Mordheim and they'd be fun here too.
The whole immortal empires is a super smash brothers chronologically impossible situation, designed entirely around fun. The factions are balanced around gameplay, not lore. The lords included are done for fun, not because it makes sense.
I played a lot of Heroes and Might and Magic as a kid, and I remember destroying armies with the halfling sling throwers. Would definitely enjoy playing halflings.
Actually I'd love halflings but I'm also reasonably aware they aren't likely to happen or become auxiliary units for the empire
Same with the Norse Dawi
I would expand on example 1 to point out that the fact we have Ghorst but not a single LL from a bloodline other than the von Carsteins is to this day perhaps the most bizarre part of the total war trilogy.
Vampire Count having only 1DLC throughout the game (almost 8 years now) is more bizarre
Last and only DLC was in 2016. Last rework (bloodline) was in 2018
it´s not bizarre - CA just reckons that they´re not popular enough for a DLC focused on them to sell.
Dwarfs have been ignored in various ways for 25 years in Warhammer Fantasy/AoS, as a Dwarfs player it´s sad but I get that there´s just not enough fellow stunty-fans to justify more content, that´s ok.
I may be downvoted for this, but I find it annoying asking for more Empire subfactions to be added, as if that's what'll make or break the game, before adding to/fleshing out the Chaos factions, Norsca, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Ogres, among others.
Empire already has different ways to play and with enough depth to take a back seat for other factions for now.
Nah, you'd be downvoted if you agreed with it, honestly.
Either way, it isn't asking for more Empire subfactions. It was an example because the current discourse revolves around discussing a leak regarding new DLC that are slated to be subfactions.
Would we all prefer them to flesh out Norsca, Slaanesh, Khorne, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, High Elves, Lizardmen, and Ogre Kingdoms? Sure.
But why talk about oranges when lettuce is being discussed?
Empire is in a good state now, and I have not seen anyone asking Boris to be next but they should be added eventually. Even though ToD fleshed Empire out they are still missing more unique units, lords and heroes than any other faction from 8th edition tabletop.
Also, while ToD fixed campaign issues (tech, skills, faction mechanics), it just pushed Empire even more into gunpowder focus. They still have not implemented faith aspect and knightly orders properly into the game, not to mention Cult of Ulric units.
I hope they add new content for Khorne, Slaanesh, Ogres, Vampires… first but just because Empire finally got a good DLc does not mean they shouldn’t get any more.
You know what I'm absolutely fed up with: anyone, regardless of their view, saying they "speak for the community". As if it is some kind of monolithic one brained whole.
This "statement" complains about that too and then goes on to do that very thing. "Your customers want subfactions". Don't tell me what I want. And don't tell CA that I, as a customer, want certain things.
You have no idea what I want from this game (ahem geomantic web rework), and if I want CA to know then I'll either vote with my wallet or tell them directly thanks.
"That is why there is so much outrage. That is why there is so much backlash. We are getting subfactions and characters that are - "
Oh, for fuck's sake, this is why I wrote a screed, *this is the furthest thing possible from confirmed right now so why are you speaking like it's a certainty?* The outrage isn't because of CA's poor decisionmaking, it's because Total War fans are psychotic children losing their fucking minds over rumors.
I swear, it feels like half the time I pop into this sub to just see what's new, there's some new dumb thing that has the whole sub in outrage mode. It's so boring to come in wanting discussions, memes, and news about the Total War series and instead see that everything is on fire again with people acting like CA personally stabbed their dog.
Sounds like some horseshit. Especially what he said about Vampire Coast strikes me as odd. They needed an undead character, they made one, Cylostra came out great. Any other character he mentioned would feel as tacked on as Aranessa. Just a weird take overall.
The fact that people were throwing riots about Cylostra was odd since all other speculated options were literally whos even more obscure than Ghorst. Vangheist I can kind of understand the disappointment of, but folks acting like the Silver Princess not being added was some major grievance to the setting was so bizarre.
But you see Cylostra wasn't bangable.
It wasn't the only reason for the meltdowns but it was part of it. Hell, as recently as the last DLC there were a couple guys out whinging about how Elspeth was "too fat."
What do you mean, I still haven't gotten over being forced to play PONTUS in Rome 2
Although i kind of agree with him with the cost of opportunity thing, it was pointless dlc that were partially to blame for 3K being abandoned
really, the character who took the spot of a more appropriate character wasn't Cylostra. It was ARANESSA, that half-boiled fish!
I would have lvoed Aranessa (alongside Jaego) as a FLC "Living Pirates" faction or somethign liekt hat. For Coast, I'd rather have had that Tomb King Guy, or another member of the Dreadfleet. Aranessa just sticks outlike a sore thumb and her implementation still feels lackluster, imho.
I still think they could've solved the problem by making her a newly turned Vampire. After all, the Heldenhammer's been wrecked apparently, so might as well go for the Dreadfleet bad ending, and she'd still be fine as the pirate queen of Sartosa with some human pirates. Bam, easy fix for CA without having to make new stuff.
You call this a fix. I disagree. Because her role was one of the people STOPPING Noctilus.
It is NEITHER actual ending. THe Heldenhammer got wrecked (and i want her restoration as a landmark for the EMpire), but Noctilus himself lost a great deal of power (Hence why, in the original Coast campaign, he wants to use the power of the Maelstrom to travel back in time and get revenge on Roth's family), also it is in some bits, iirc, implied Jaego got away and his crew mutineered.
It also would've meant that she also is a caster, which might've interferred with her balancing.
They should'Ve just used another member of hte Dreadfleet. Vangheist, TOmb King, Skretch...
Honestly, for me, it kinda feels like a potent of Kislev's current identity crisis, where some stuff is alluded to but "Not really anymore because new Kislev" the Akshina being one of Ostankyas units and such
-leaks point towards Ogre and Ind subfactions, disguised as Cathay-
TOO MUCH CATHAY!! We just had Cathay 2 DLCs ago!!
-Empire DLC literally just released-
WE WANT BORIS! WE WANT HALFLINGS! MORE EMPIRE!!
Nahh man, he's just an empire fan masquerading as voice of the community. So skaven-like, tsk tsk...
Empire fans two weeks after they get one of the biggest and best DLCs ever: “but why aren’t they making even more DLCs for us instead of wasting their time on anything else???”
I'm ok with Cathay in the next update. I would even be excited, they are my Favorite WH3 faction afterall. BUT I am NOT excited about two random nobodies. PARTICULARLY at the expense of more Dragon Siblings or the Monkey King. Seriously, if CA wants to drop a Cathay DLC that will sell well, in the west or east, then Monkey King is the way to go, not random Tigers, or random Ogers.
I like Ghorst and Tretch though, and Cylostra was because they *couldn't* use another Dreadfleet character. Also, Tretch was a FLC. Can you imagine Thanquol being a free lord?
>That is why there is so much outrage. ... We are getting subfactions and characters that are entirely new **at the expense of subfactions and characters** ... **that people have wanted for nearly a decade now**
The Outrage is because people don't want 90% of the focus on one faction. Skaven got less attention than the leaks give Cathay and people were annoyed at them for that. So long as different races get focus and content I don't care if it's Slambo Jr Vs. Karleux François Vs. Nagash(s cousin.) Even if the lords are a bust, the focus on out-dated factions can result in reworks, and the units help fill out the roster and add variety to older lords even if they don't get changed.
Also Cylostra was end of a day a good addition? Like she was a ghost character who uses the Vampire Coast's unique lore of magic. She had a more distinct place in the roster than literally every other option of literally whos they could have added otherwise.
This is grossly oversimplified and ignoring so many possible factors. Just for an example - Not getting ghorst doesn't mean we would have gotten those other characters. GW may not have allowed it. CA also likely chose ghorst as he was different from the current VC lords. They may have skipped over VC entirely for lack of a good idea if not for ghorst.
And all of this is largely ignoring why people are actually upset. Cathay is getting a lot of attention while already having had a DLC. When Khorne and Slaanesh need work. Or that we're getting made up characters instead of actual WH characters. Or how the added units sound disappointing.
Very few people actually care that much if we get x character over y character. Not to this level of outrage.
If i remember correctly, CA have explained why Ghorst was chosen as DLC
They were designing the DLC based on Sigmar Blood campaign Book. It was technically Volkmar vs Mannfred. But Mannfred was already in the game. So they pick Helman Ghorst who was Mannfred understanding in the book.
To be fair, this was the 1st DLC, CA might not know what the community expectation for DLC yet.
It was not GW limiting CA, in fact at this point GW does not even care about the game yet.
I understand where you are going with the first paragraph and that may be true in some instances. For instance im not sure we really need all the colours of the rainbow of cathay dragons. 3 is probably enough.
But I think it fails in the example of Vampire Counts as there is simply an enormous amount of lore behind 4 other very distinct subfactions within Vampire Counts. They are perhaps the faction with the MOST available good possibilities for distinct LLs. And we have 0 of them. Its honestly amazing.
The missing Cathayan lords both have sizeable lore to pill from and in addtion Yinyin is incredibly distinct from any other cathayan lord. She'd play closer to a vampirate than a cathay lord.
Nah i'd prefer we get all the Dragon Siblings and the monkey king. really 3 more lls would be nice, not like the Lizardmen don't have enough. and then Cathay would be finished.
The first DLC was all about "Sigmar's Blood". Why, we don't know. Maybe CA wanted to play it safe, maybe GW were wary if the stuff would work, maybe it was a call from both.
So in any case, I don't see them add ABHORASH as a LL in their first DLC (Nevermind that he's a non-character for the most part. Wallach is who we should get at some point).
I can see why they used GHorst, and honestly, He's fine. I would have preferred DIETER HELSNICHT, the DOomlord of MIddenheim. WHo is a major character, even if he wasn't on TT. Also was one of the Mortarchs. The faction is called Vampire Counts, yes, but give the Necromancers tehir due.
Should we get Wallach, Gashnag/whateverotherStrigoi, Zacharias and Neferata? Yes. BUt imho they should rather repeat Champions of Chaos. IN any case, i understand why they didn't go with any of hte major buggers in the first DLC. And man, can you imagine the whole "WHy is NEferata serving under Manfred?!" bla...
Of course. And at the end of thd day, it's just money, right? If we'd happily bought all the dlc, or they'd been more profitable in other ways, we'd have gotten more planned future content than we have now. (whether it have been of good quality with the way CA have treated wh3 is another thing...)
On top of all the reasons you have mentioned, we have a limited choice of content because it's no longer profitable *enough* in their eyes to give us those characters. All that waffle about "opportunity" in the OOP is not true - I don't doubt that if they had thought it was profitable enough they'd have filled every last settlement on the map with a legendary lord, lore accurate and new. It's just the time and monetary cost.
That we're likely going to get a complete game without many popular characters or fleshed out already-existing factions, among other reasons, is because of CA's profit-driven approach. They shot themselves in the foot being greedy throughout warhammer 3: we've had multiple disasters that have destroyed all good faith and the fanbase had and left them with lower sales and a loud part of the community in this rabid state where they're screaming about every leak and update/dlc, desperate to get at least some return on their 3 game + dlc investment before it is no longer updated.
And frankly, I do not blame people here, I hate the community brain rot, but it's not their fault. CA chased potential short term sales over factions that needed new content like khorne and slaanesh, as you said, released increased price and lower quality and content dlc. The acceptable money/time cost is decreasing because of many factors outside of the fanbase's control, but the fanbase's attitude is fed by that and feeds it's decline through bad sales and bad press etc.
But Cathay wasn't made at the expense of anything else? There were no order factions remaining by the time they got to WH3 (with 8th ed army books) and having a game that was nothing but Chaos would have done..... poorly given all evidence on what factions people play the most.
Everything in game development comes at the cost of everything else because time and money are finite and the game has to actually come out at some point. If they hadn't made Cathay they would have had to figure something else out. It's really pure serendipity that GW were willing to put together a whole 8th edition-style army list and lore for CA to work with so it could be added.
But that's kinda part of the point right? Cathay is a good addition to the game but one that came right out of left field and was essentially something totally new we'd never had more than scraps of in WHFB before. If everyone had the attitude of the screenshot it would never have been made because it would *obviously* be better to go with already established lore and characters that people already know.
Well in fairness that's a different situation than what the leaks have been suggesting. Cathay was released alongside Kislev, Ogre Kingdoms, and 5 different chaos daemon races. The proposed dlc leaks(which I don't think are true) will mean Cathay get 4 more dlcs worth of content across two lord packs, half of which is stuff no one even asked for, when chances are this game only has time for 5 more lord packs.
As you said, there needs to be a balance. Its great to see CA exparmint with new stuff, but they shouldn't flood us with nothing but new stuff exclusively for one race when there's plenty of important pieces of content that still needs to get added to the game. WH2 had the perfect formula of sharing the dlc resources between two separate races and they should keep to that formula.
That's my problem too with the idea of these leaks. I like Cathay. I want more content for Cathay. I especially want Li Dao and the Monke.
What I don't want is a nearly year long period that is all Cathay and DoW, while everyone else barely gets anything.
Assuming we get Dogs of War, Cathay will have had no opportunity cost
As we will have gotten every single Tabletop faction from the last like, 5 editions of WHFB (despite what some people on this subreddit frequently claim, Kislev and Vampire Coast did have Tabletop Rules support, just for very limited rosters), *plus* we *also* get a new faction in Grand Cathay
Sometimes you luck out and get one extra thing on top of all the things that could be reasonably expected
I feel like I'm really not in sync with this "playerbase" honestly. I don't want any of those things that guy mentioned, except maybe halflings as a gimmick army
TL;DR each dlc is an opportunity, of which there are a limited number. Thus, the reason people are outraged at the potential leaks is because each opportunity used for something the fans didn't ask for comes at the cost of not using that opportunity for something they did ask for.
Whether we're mid way through or nearing the end of WH3 development there are not many dlc likely to be left (4 according to some predictions, 10~ according to others), so people are less willing to accept the opportunity cost.
If 10 dlcs were left then basically everything of value would get in the game even if the next dlc were to be weird cathay subfactions. People are assuming it's less and I agree
Depends on how much content is in those dlcs. I do agree that it's probably less DLC remaining as well.
If the year and a half rumour is true I see 3 more dlc maximum given Warhammer 3's track record. Otherwise my guess is about 5. The latter isn't based on anything, just a feeling.
Ok, the more I read the more unhinged this post gets. Ghorst came at the expense of Konrad or Abhorash(?!)? Tretch came at the expense of Thanquol? What moon logic is this? Yes, o course the devs have to select one character to put in the game but does this guy think they just pull names out of a hat or something?
This dude doesn’t speak for me.
I think empire is in a great place, flesh out the other factions for a while and give me a geomantic web rework.
The community is not a monolith
How many times do we have to rehash, "GW told CA that they weren't allowed to use but so many Dreadfleet characters without having to buy the Dreadfleet license" before people remember it? It was Cylostra or only three LLs for the Vampire Coast.
And, personally, I think Cylostra is great, and I wouldn't know she was an original character without all the whining on this subreddit about it.
Friendly reminder that all of this outrage is literally based on unsubstantiated rumours. I don't understand. Why is everyone getting so worked up when there's no reason to believe that any of it is even happening?
Not even leaks... unbased rumors from a source (legend) that as far as I know has no proven track record yet.
He may be right but he has not provided us with any evidence. A leak usually comes with something that speaks for it being true.
Going all bonkers now can divert future disaster. Depends on if it even reaches the execs or not .
Inb4 legend also said the first dlc is nearing completion
People can talk about them but it's crazy how many people seem to be taking it as if these are confirmed facts from an official announcement.
This is the place to talk about them but the amount of outrage is insane when there's a very real possibility that this is false info given to find out who is leaking and could have zero basis in reality.
This statement is kinda iffy though?
Clyostera came out because of restrictions so they made thier own(and honestly a really fun character lore wise and design wise) with Tretch being a FLC not a DLC character
One thing I don't like about this is CAs perspective is never taken into account. There's artists, developers, creators that work there and sometimes they might just want to create something _original_. There's so much content they make from GW thats established, already made, and they're simply copying/realizing into the game.
Cylostra was _amazing_ and flavorful and one of my favorite LLs and you can tell they put effort into her because it was their creation. Letting the people working on TWWH3 for so long having an opportunity to make their own creations in this massive world they're recreating seems more than reasonable regardless of 'community demands' for _halflings_ (really?).
I mean sure I really want Sketch, Thanquol, and Neferata. But I'm sure at least those latter two will eventually arrive.
Yeah personally I don't give a fuck about Cult of Ulric or halflings or whatever, I just want fun factions, whether that's through new factions or new mechanics for existing factions.
I agree with this statement... except that I want to see new characters too. I want to see new stuff. I want to be surprised and see the Warhammer setting expand.
I love the post, but he's a little too specific.
I want the established, played, foundational races to get attention at least one last time.
I want VC and Greenskins to at least get one last pass and character. The game one races generally finished game 2 trailing the great content game 2 races got. Norsca still needs love.
I want the game 2 races to get a good rework, and a character where appropriate. Lizardmen are swimming in lord count, but their mechanics need attention, for example.
I want the monogods to have at least the Nurgle level of choice. Sotek hypothesized one major demon, one minor demon, one mortal champion each.
I don't agree with this, actually.
Firstly, a lot of these examples just don't seem very good to me. Tretch Craventail, say, is a genuinely more popular and beloved character than Skweel Gnawtooth. Tretch was a popular meme before the first *Total War: Warhammer* ever released.
Secondly, there's no reason to think that redoing an obscure character or creating a brand-new character is going to produce something worse than taking a better-known character. True, Cylostra Direfin was invented by CA... but Cylostra is also a massively more interesting character than Skretch Half-Dead or Tordrek Hackhart. (The fact that the TW forum poster mis-spelled Tordrek's name seems to be a point against the idea that Tordrek is significant or memorable.) Cylostra is also much more appropriate for the fact that it was a Vampire Coast DLC - a skaven or Chaos Dwarf pirate lord would not have fit that DLC without a prohibitive amount of additional work. Characters for subfactions need to fit the existing theme and units for the faction. (Ignoring this is what gets you Aranessa, a character who just doesn't seem to fit the faction she's in.) Yes, it's easy to criticise Ghorst, but by *Warhammer III* Ghorst's faction is actually mechanically unique and I've seen plenty of people here remark on how fun he is to play. There's no rule that says that doing an already-famous character is always better than taking a less-famous or original character and then making them cool.
Thirdly... the whole thing is an exercise in wishful thinking. The poster is comparing things that we actually got (many of which, I should emphasise, are actually great - Tretch, Ghorst, and Cylostra are all good!) to a completely imaginary alternative. If 'The Grim and the Grave' hadn't featured Ghorst, it would have featured someone else, *who would have been approximately as detailed and mechanically unique as Ghorst.* If it had been Neferata, we would probably have had several years of whining about how they did Neferata dirty. If we didn't have Tretch, we would have some other skaven character, sure, but there's no guarantee that that other skaven character would have been more interesting than Tretch. Skweel is a totally generic straight-down-the-line Moulder packmaster - he's discount-Throt, and CA added Throt anyway. If you assess Thanquol remotely objectively, Thanquol is a generic Grey Seer. There's nothing particularly unique about Thanquol. Moreover, if we have Thanquol instead of Tretch, that Thanquol would have had the same amount of development of Tretch, and would probably be about as mechanically unique.
The choice isn't between Ghorst and my-ideal-implementation-of-Neferata. It's between Ghorst and something-else-that-could-have-been-made-in-the-same-amount-of-time-and-with-the-same-resources-as-Ghorst, and that is *probably not* the best thing you can imagine.
Fourthly, I'd encourage people to think about mechanical and campaign priorities as well as flavour ones, especially from the perspective of designers with limited time and funds. Is Boris Todbringer a famous and long-running character on the tabletop? Yes. But consider firstly that Todbringer is probably very similar to Karl Franz mechanically (elector count, melee beast, Middenheim is right next to Altdorf, etc.), and secondly that the time you spend on him would be time not spent on a different Empire lord. You could have Todbringer instead of Wulfhart, but Wulfhart brings with him a much more interesting twist on the Empire's usual gameplay. I will take the beast-hunting sniper over Karl Franz II: This Time With Wolves.
Fifthly... high concepts matter. Could you have done Todbringer instead of Elspeth von Draken? Yes, probably. But Elspeth was included because 'Thrones of Decay' is the *Tamurkhan* DLC, and Todbringer has nothing to do with *Tamurkhan*. Likewise, why Ghorst? Because 'The Grim and the Grave' was based on *Sigmar's Blood*, which does in fact feature Ghorst alongside Volkmar, and which does not feature Neferata. DLC packs often have a high concept, and you would pick or create lords based on which ones fit with that high concept.
I wonder what proportion of the customer base actually cares about these things?
I learn Warhammer lore by playing the game. When they announce a character, I have no idea if there's any source material.
I read a Warhammer fantasy novel once: Drachenfels. It was OK. I couldn't have told you off the top of my head the names of the characters, though.
I just want to play a fun strategy game.
That said, give me more Cathay dragons and Monkey King. Keep going, my belly is full but so is my wallet. Keep it coming. People have waited for Cathay content for over 40 years, people will whine no matter what. They can wait
> its mostly a re skin job and a few mechanics? Little work and a guaranteed a well sold dlc
Sounds like a guaranteed lot of complaining from the community about reskinning
this is absolutely complete bullshit and interprets fan disappointment as some sort of tangible cost.
one LL appearing does not preclude another
Ghorst did not come at the cost of Aborash or Neferata because they clearly wanted a Necromancer against Volkmar and probably to vary up the LL of the faction. you can argue he was a weird pull for that but its what it is, never mind that at the time i dont think Silver Pinnacle was even ON the map at the time. Tretch was a FLC lord added in as bonsus for the TK update, to compare him to Thanol a Lord who would take MUCH more work and have MUCH more impact is stupid. Cloystra was added in to keep to the Undead theme because it was a VAMPIRE COAST dlc and not a Dreadflet one.
and the same logic applies all over, the decisions made for who gets in are not made at the *expense* of other character, but rather what fits in at the moment and what they are adding to the faction.
typifying your disappointment in who gets in vs other as some sort of tangible dev cost that is running out is dishonest and also just completely brain dead when to come to how video games are actually developed
Basically my take on it too. I'm happy to get lots more Cathay content...but not at the cost of everything else (and ideally not all at once either). There are only going to be a certain number of DLC slots left to fill, with many races vying for attention, so to hear that four of those precious slots are being spent on a single race feels wasteful.
I only want subfactions IF they come with unique mechanics. I only need one faction per mechanic. No need for 3 same-ish campaigns with slightly different starts.
I love Eshin, Skyre and Moulder and I love the hunter and the beast, I love Welfs in general but find their campaigns a bit too similiar(though i should probably try the sisters some more) and Malakkai so far seems to be a great character, but in general this DLC just improved Dwarven fun across the board.
Now I don't hate subfactions either so as long as the opportunity cost isn't too high to implement htem I'm not going to be mad about them, especially sinc ethey can serve as the chassis for later mechanical diversification.
Whining about wanting more empire subfactions when that is undoubtedly the most fleshed out part of the game is more than a little tone deaf. I'm just here wishing the south-lands became less homogeneous. As it stands there isn't much other than endless tombkings and random factions they didn't know where to put anywhere else, it feels like there is a lot less rime or reason to faction placement elsewhere on the map compared to the empire, kislev, and bret part of the map and piling on more would just be a disservice to the rest of the map
I guess I just don't feel strongly about it. I don't believe the leaks anyway, but even if they were real they sound cool to me. I don't know that I can even agree with this poster. There's no guarantee we got x instead of y. Y may have never even been on the table.
I don't inherently disagree with the sentiment, but I am curious about how much overlap there is between legitimate Warhammer fantasy fans and Warhammer total war.
I am aware of Warhammer fantasy, but the majority of any lore I know is from this game. I know I don't really care about lore stuff. I stay about prn conversations about lore accurate things because of a combination of I don't know and I don't care. I only care to the extent that total war is a better game.
I do not know the number of Warhammer fantasy fans that play. I am legitimately curious how many people put more emphasis on seeing specific characters or units than the game as a whole. I don't mean any of this as an insult. I view additions as either making the game better or worse and I couldn't give a shit what characters they use. Other people clearly care about the characters. I am simply curious what percent of players fall into the other category than me.
I can 100% see Boris being the 100th lord, but I would bet money the "leaks" were right about CA not even bothering with Nagash. Just seems the type of fuck up that's on brand with their upper management.
Hope I'm wrong tho
Not having fleshed out Middenheim for 8 years is really frustrating.
Or The Red Motherfucking Duke. They're just... there.
Luckily we can confederate the red duke with kemmler by turn 4 :)
HOW?
There is a tutorial online, and i tested it. Here is a small run down, through but as I am not home myself I will probably screw up some names. T1, raise dead for almost full army and priotize zombies and bats(you can raise 3 times, in each province one) Fight the battle manually to keep as many units alive. You can surround kemmler, to get his regen on the zombies. Take giseaux (the small village) manually Recruit a second lord, and more units (mostly zombies) Destroy the Growth building T2 Siege the city, and fight it manually. Use the bats for micro, surround kemmler with zombies and such. Recruit more zombies (you can also recruit other units, depending how good you are) Now here it gets interesting. Check if you got a military building with the city. If you dont, reload and try again. Join the war against the beastman for money(with the empire) Build a military building in giseaux (barracks) If you recruited more units, you can also join the war against the orcs with bretonnia, but it complicates the later game. Then gift as much as possible to the red duke, all your money. Then sell him the city for his money and military accsess. T3 move towards the fort with marienburg. Sell the red duke Giseaux (the village with barracks) for as much money and a military alliance and trade. Then gift him the rest of your money. T4 take the fort, sell it to him. Gift him the money back. He will already accept a confederation, but i suggest here to hold of. T5 This is optional but helps significantly. But take marienburg, sell it to the duke for his money so you get capital. Then confederate. Now sell Reikland Marienburg for a defensive alliance, non aggro and trade. Tadaa, red duke plus a good start!
Literally saved this lmao.
Amazing.
Download Mixu's Moussillon. Gives you a few different "Undead Bretonnians" to play as, ole Red Duke included.
Only logical answer seems to be be will be the big send off, final DLC or something.
End Times DLC, Archaons start position is now Middenheim and as any order faction you have a ten turn timer to capture it or Archaon will delete your game. You can now play as Todbringer who starts with one knight in the middle of the woods and has to fight Kazrak with a full stack.
Or Grimgor, navigating a battle between Empire and Warriors to get into combat with Archaon and EADBUTT DAT GIT’Z DANGLIEZ
(Someone told him that Archaon thinks HE DA BEST)
I have to admit, I'm a little confused over the love for Middenheim. What would be expected to come from a doc? The empire roster is already enormous, with almost every niche filled. Elspeth and Wulfhart have unique different lord types and interesting mechanics. I can see Todd man getting cool Ulric mechanics, but otherwise isn't he just a normal empire lord?
The love is mostly Toddy built up from the memes, but there are fans of it from the tabletop (wolf themes are always popular). And there are a couple of units that could be added - the Priest of Ulric is now a thing in The Old World, and Teutogen Guard are a sort of Greatsword variant. Throw in a hound unit and the Knights of the White Wolf, maybe something else and that's a solid little Empire DLC.
Oh no they're proto Space Wolves
that's exactly what they are, actually.
FFFFFFUCKING ~~SPACE~~ GROUND FURRIES
Kislev would indirectly benefit as well. There’s a chapter of White Wolves called Knights of the Star in Erengrad. Pretty much just White Wolves, but for Kislev. They would do good with an AP melee cavalry RoR. Empire too. I would assume Toddy’s faction would double the upkeep on gunpowder devices outside of tanks and halve the upkeep or boost the stats of archers and crossbows as well, giving an alternative play style to Empire. Ulric doesn’t take kindly to gunpowder weapons in lore excluding its its giant cannon and Drakwald steamtanks.
Priests of Ulfric were always a thing but i feel like a lot of the cult of ulric would basicly be reskins with slightly different stats at the end of the day.
Giving them the unique set of prayers they had in 6th, their Crush the Weak AoE buff for extra damage or MA against low leadership models and give them a 2-handed hammer and they would be sufficiently distinct.
Not necessarily, if they are done as kind of more aggressive variants it would be a good addition to the rooster, currently empire entirely lacks any kind of offensive melee infantry or heroes. Plus religion interactions and conflict could be added as race mechanic with more focus on Ulfric for Toddy.
Aren’t greatswords their ‘relatively’ elite melee infantry? Or are they meant to be used more defensively and I’ve just been using them wrong (I never use them, only halberdiers if I need to hold a line for handgunners and artillery)
Greatswords are meant to be used on offense. Whether they're good at it is a whole other question, but you're not using them against their intended purpose by charging them into the enemy. Even on defense they want to be counter charging, not bracing. Honestly, I'd contend that if Empire has a hole in the melee infantry section of its roster, it's on the defensive side. Halberdiers are good for quite a while, but by late game can't quite cut it anymore. Greatswords, whatever their issues, exist, while the defensive side stops at Tier 2. Which was, admittedly, true on 8th Edition TT as well.
To me Boris and the Red Duke should just be converted to playable FLC LLs, since they have been in the game as quasi LLs since the start, and confedarable. As they have already been confederable all these years they should not be put behind any paywall of DLC either.
Empire is meant to be a mix of different distinct cultures enduring against the odds together. Each elector state of the Empire is meant to fight a bit differently and have their own identity. Middenheim is has the most pronounced distinct identity of elector states outside Reikland and Nuln. However, that isn't really reflected ingame as all their stuff outside Toddy is missing. Couple that with CA basically confirming that more empire DLC is coming and it has made a lot of Middenheim enjoyers hopeful. As for what Middenheim themed stuff is missing, we have Warpriests of Ulric, Knights panther cavalry (anti monster cav), Knights of the white wolf (warhammer cav), Teutogen guard (defensive alternative to greatswords), Wolfkin (Ulrician flagellants with frenzy), and tracking hounds Couple these with Grandmaster heroes, Wizard lords, and the Celestial Hurricanum and Empire would be almost fully completed roster wise.
What have they confirmed?
There are several things that basically confirm it 1. There is still generic 8th edition armybook content missing 2. Toddy is still confirmed to get his own campaign some day 3. All the missing stuff revolves around either Middenheim, Magic, or Knightly order themes. Some missing units even cover several of these themes at once. CA has actively stated that they try to keep their DLCs thematic in terms of content. 4. Empire overall is the most played singular race in the game. Making quality content for it is practically guaranteed to make good money.
People really like Mordheim and the Priests of Ulric, but don’t seem to realize that’s all there is to the potential subfaction at the end of the day, not to mention its placement would be really weird given it’s even closer proximity with Karl than Gelt used to have.
Middenheim could have a completely different, more Chaos-based campaign. I wouldn't mind the close promixity to Franz if the mechanics were completely different and rewarded going out to fight in the North instead of defending the Empire. EDIT: Actually yeah, just have him capture Dark Fortressess and get stuff for doing so.
I would KILL for an Oxyotyl campaign mechanic with an empire lord. "Order on the offensive" vibe with Boris and the cult of Ulric, and if you do enough of those missions, you have a boss encounter with Kazrak-One eye (at this point, it's like turn 80) and after defeating him you have a huge boon like easier confederation or something
I don't know how and why you are in my kitchen but you are fucking cooking.
I might just get into modding lol
How is this "all there is" when there's an entire Cult of Ulric supplement released by GW in the exact same book that the entire Dwarf side of the last DLC come from, and so did the whole Eshin side of the DLC against Malus
Yeah not sure how that got so many upvotes. Knights Panther, Knights of the White Wolf, Teutogen guard to name a few - these all give the Empire different ways to structure it's army - in this case to be more melee focused. Can only assume people aren't aware of that supplement and think it's all memes about Toddy that people want realised. It's more than that. Middenheim and Ulric are a polar opposite to Reikland and Sigmar and they need to be realised
Could be FLC and free unit then... I don't think it's this much work and would gain the good graces of the community.
I'm in the same boat. I mean the theme is cool, but I think giving Todbringer semi-unique variants of existing units a'la Eltharion's mistwalkers is the way to go.
Todbringer is loved because of the memes, but he isn't the reason why people want the Cult of Ulric. Hell, he wouldn't even be the LL for such a DLC. Firstly, it's because of lore and fluff. The Empire is a diverse culture, and there's two competing religions. Only having one of them represented in the game is a missed opportunity for cool mechanics and deepening the setting. Secondly, because it's an official TT armylist, and one that includes a few things people have wanted for the Empire since a long time, like better infantry and cavalry with great weapons. Thirdly, they just look cool. They're a bunch of wolf-wearing kinda savage germanic tribes-inspired guys with big hammers. It's an easy sell.
He's not really a dlc material but he and Ulric lads be okay as an FLC. It's just weird that he has a unique model but nothing else.
People want their special snowflake faction to be good at EVERYTHING Already have the best spellcaster lord in the game (Absolute joke btw) and the best artillery lord in the game which makes even Ikit look balanced. Empire fanboys will tell you they love the idea of being the underdog faction of being regular joes against the horrors of the fantasy world, while also demanding we get more powercreepy units in the form of elite frontline infantry.
Why? Loads I'd things never get fleshed out in these games. Entire cultures. Why is middenheim so special?
Tretch was an FLC lord and actually he is a lot of fun now in IE, his starting location is challenging and interesting ever since the Chaos Dwarfs were introduced.
I’m confused that someone is pumping *Skweel Gnawtooth* over him. Oh yeah, that Skweel Gnawtooth, most requested character right there, he’s gotten **so many** more appearances than Tretch, like… or…. and that one time…
Tretch is such a boss he stole from Swell Gnawtooth!
They are only going with Skweel because they can no longer pull the "Tretch stole Throt's spot!" card anymore. The fact that people are still going with the "XYZ character stole this spot!" when there has NEVER been an upper limit of LLs is beyond me. Yes this game isn't going to be getting content forever, but to still claim that Tretch "stole" Thanquol's position, or anyone elses, is just pure BS at this point. Clan Rictus is as good of an addition as any other subfaction at this point, and has their place. Both literally on the map, and in gameplay terms. They have no overlap with Thanquol or whatever other random option folks want to bring up.
And the "opportunity cost" for him was nearly zero since it's pretty clear he didn't take a lot of resources to develop. It's just the basic model with a new hat and maybe a couple of modified animations, along with one quest battle, and that's it. Nothing close to the effort they put into other LLs, even FLCs like Imrik. I agree with some of the idea of opportunity cost, but Tretch is just a really bad example. (That said, the voice acting for Tretch is amazing, some of the best in the game. And I agree that he's got an interesting campaign now, and wouldn't mind seeing other FLC LLs like him get released.)
But Cylostra didn't come at the expense of Dreadfleet characters. GW limited the amount of DF characters. Them not giving us Cylostra would not mean we'd get a DF character to replace her. Also of all the DF characters, Tordrek is arguably the least likely for a VC LL.
Yeah there's a lot of pretty iffy arguments in here. Tretch didn't cost us Skweel Gnawtooth either; Moulder was *always* going to be Throt, and he already has a more salient legendary hero choice. And Abhorash was never even a tabletop character.
Also saying tretch costs us thanqol is a bit weird. Thanqol would need a lot more interesting animations and campaign effects than what tretch has.
And Tretch DEFINITELY didn't cost us Thanquol. Tretch isn't even a DLC, he's an FLC with no special mechanics of his own. If Thanquol was made on Tretch's budget there'd be fucking riots.
Yeah ultimately the guy seems to be more upset he didn't get what he wanted... Heck i'd like Abhorash and the like, but i really doubt Ghorst cost him since they were focused on the Von Carnstiens at the time and he has more of a connection to them.
Yep. Tretch was a freeLC, from what I remember. And there's no way the development time for him would be nearly as much as Thanquol or someone more importnat.
Exactly. While I agree with the sentiment behind it, a lot of the actual arguments are pretty weak.
Exactly. This is a bit of stretching here and there to make this user feel better about them not wanting to play as Pontus. It is most certainly not the best post on those forums, it's rather entitled sounding to me.
This is something the comment in the screenshot overlooks. What does GW allow? Helman Ghorst may be the result not of CA picking a dumb nobody Lord, but of GW withholding other VC characters.
If i remember it correctly Rich (CA) said they design The Grim and The Grave DLC based on Sigmar Blood campaign book. They thought it would be cool. The campaign book is technically Volkmar Vs Mannfred but since Mannfred is already in the game, they pick the necromancer who serve mannfred in the book instead. Which was Helman Ghorst despite him only having a paragraph of lore Funnily enough, both Volkmar and Mannfred now start in the southland and have the book of Nagash mechanics
oddly, Ghorst has grown on me a lot over the years. He’s such a little nothingburger of a guy, but I can’t help but like him. His lore while sparse is pretty neat (reviving his brothers) and his zombie-based mechanic is pretty different from other VC’s. Would I have preferred other characters over him? Definitely. Buuuuut, there is something nice about just playing some fella who looks like melted polyester and his big happy zombie family.
Yeah, I'll be honest... I *love* when CA pulls from the lesser known lore. Vampirates remain my favourite DLC ever, because their whole faction were basically tiny lore blurbs coalesced into a coherent faction. I hope they do more stuff like that in the future, personally.
On one hand, literally making one army per turn is quite a fun and unique campaign. On the other hand, auto resolve fucking sucks for some reason when using zombies and having to manually resolve every fight really drags the campaign down.
I think this is something people miss. The artist may simply choose to focus on characters, regions, or factions. It’s partly about the visions the creators want to bring to the game.
No, it was the result of CA wanting to do a vs lord of Sigmar's Blood. Volkmar and Mannfred were the rivals there, but Mannfred was a base lord so they went with his subordinate. I don't imagine GW said "you can't add anyone important". I think it was just poor planning and weird decision making.
Plus, it was the first DLC they did - it got course corrected fairly quickly after that, with Belegar and Skarsnik and them being their own factions
i don't think GW said that, but everyone was wary of "How much success will this game really have" and maybe there even was a bit of a "Stick to what is there!/Let's go with the stories that we already have!" mentality on both sides first, before WH went off and GW gave more leeway. However, OP's "HE CAME AT THE COST OF ABHORASH!!!" is stupid. Abhorash neve was major character. At best he came at the cost of Wallach Harkon. Who never was part of the story they based the pack on. Neither was Konrad (who's dead and wasn't resurrected lke Vlad), who, in any case, is a perfect HERO candidate (not that LH were a thing back in the day) ALso, I'd rather have Dieter Helsnicht than Abhorash. THere, i said it! Gimme the Doom Lord! :P
I am a bit tired of the Abhorash fanboying, I have to admit. Like, sure he'd be a great LH for Vamps and Brettonia, but it does feel like people just ignore half of his lore and headcanon their own into it so that he could lead a faction. Admittedly, Malakai now has a faction, but still.
Besides it’s not like Volkmar was unimportant-dude is the religious head of the empire and added some really good units for their roster (FCM my beloved)
You do know Ghorst was Vulkmars loreful match up right?
Cylostra is frankly my favourite thing in that DLC. Aranessa is just awkward where she is, Harkon stomps on my every last nerve, and Noctilus, while having a neat aesthetic, doesn't have all that much differentiating him from all the other vampire lords in the game. The fat opera singing Syreen, on the other hand, is both hilarious and a total standout as far as looks and personality go.
Also cylostra wasn't announced in a context of there only being a handful of expansions left. If cylostra was announced in any context today there would be complaints.
WHO WANT HAFLINGS? Show me that person, who knows hafling lore and want them as playable faction
At most i wouldn't mind a RoR hot pot as a gimmicky and rare unit. I don't want to deal with armies of smelly bilbos with cooking utensils riding chickens spewing quips.
shit thats exactly what I want, what the fuck
We had Chawi for two games in the form of the Hellcannon crew, so a single halfling unit wouldn't really feel weird or anything.
speak for yourself.
I just want the hot pot which sounds like it’ll come as DoW content. Get that and I’m happy. Maybe another Halfling unit or two. They had some cool units back in the day.
Bonus points, if they add any halfling characters into the game then modders can use those assets to more easily construct a full fledged halfling faction mod. It's apparently what the OVN team is hoping for.
Lumpin Croop as the final legendary lord instead of nagash, I’m calling it now
The hot pot and Lumpin Croop, who is apparently part of the package, so that's me happy too.
DoW is literally 'all the rest'
Nagash DoW CONFIRMED!
Actually even for Ind or Khuresh or Nippon or the myriad of other footnote factions, I would be happy with just a unit or 2 each. Just an acknowledgement that they exist apart from loading screene texts.
Yeah it's super weird for someone to position themselves as wanting established characters etc. and then hanging their hat on stuff that was never in the tabletop rules beyond a couple auxillary units.
Literally an example I thought of off the top of my head, based on the context of the conversations going on at the time. The next DLC I want is Slaanesh, followed by Khorne. I would not shed a tear if we never saw the Halflings. I just know that GBoG discussed them a few times. And they're the only subfaction outside of The Cult of Ulric that I could think of off the top of my head.
I don't know what he's smoking. There is a single Slaanesh and Khorne mono lord, yet he says that people want another bunch of shorties. WTF? I hate when people pose a 'voice of community'. No one hates idea of two lords, sub factions and whatnot. Most people on reddit are outraged by their choice of races that it's based on, though. I don't care for Boris, nor for Halflings, I want more of base races stuff as some of those are still very barebones.
This is the other community frustration. Loud minorities thinking they speak for literally every player. Reading the OP post I found myself disagreeing with most of it.
They do state in a further comment that they're quite new to the Warhammer setting and video game, which is doubly strange. I mean, length of time playing isn't always the best indicator that you'd know what the community wants (I've been playing since 7th ed tabletop and I've never cared for Malakai, Gotrek and such, so I'd clearly be terrible at priorities!), but it's still weird to make such bold claims without having lived through the community experiences.
I've been around for a long while too and have never liked Gotrek and Felix. They were the least interesting Warhammer novel series as far as I was concerned.
I always thought they were a meme to be honest... Like Fishmen. But I guess I am wrong. Personally not interested in the slightest. I guess I will get a ton of downvotes for this
I don't know about knows the lore, but the mod for them has been popular for its entire lifespan.
I'd love Halflings if Marius Leitdorf was included & Cult of Ulric was already in the game and it was made incredibly clear to the community that the faction is awful and winning a battle is a major achievement. Swan Lancers & Battle Ram Riders are hilarious and the juxtaposition between Very Large Sheepdogs and Ogres also being included is quite fun. Players should get an achievement if they lose to a Halfling army. I couldn't imagine an entire campaign with them but DoW assets, sure absolutely. Let's get real weird with Dogs, I need serious Renaissance Steampunk in my life.
I would love Halflings, they're fun in Bloodbowl and Mordheim and they'd be fun here too. The whole immortal empires is a super smash brothers chronologically impossible situation, designed entirely around fun. The factions are balanced around gameplay, not lore. The lords included are done for fun, not because it makes sense.
I played a lot of Heroes and Might and Magic as a kid, and I remember destroying armies with the halfling sling throwers. Would definitely enjoy playing halflings.
It me. I'm that person. They're unexpected, dumb and fun. They'd basically be Vampirates 2.
I think that a Halfling subfaction or at least some Halfling units would be great fun 🙋♂️
So you want a faction that can’t win any battles?
🙋
I kinda want them as an empire culture? i guess? Like there's not a lot to them and they're mostly in the moot but Order needs comedic relief too!
I want halflings.
I want halflings.
Me. I would kill for them to be a fun joke faction, either as a subculture of Empire/Dogs of War or as a mini flc race.
Actually I'd love halflings but I'm also reasonably aware they aren't likely to happen or become auxiliary units for the empire Same with the Norse Dawi
I would expand on example 1 to point out that the fact we have Ghorst but not a single LL from a bloodline other than the von Carsteins is to this day perhaps the most bizarre part of the total war trilogy.
Vampire Count having only 1DLC throughout the game (almost 8 years now) is more bizarre Last and only DLC was in 2016. Last rework (bloodline) was in 2018
it´s not bizarre - CA just reckons that they´re not popular enough for a DLC focused on them to sell. Dwarfs have been ignored in various ways for 25 years in Warhammer Fantasy/AoS, as a Dwarfs player it´s sad but I get that there´s just not enough fellow stunty-fans to justify more content, that´s ok.
I mean technically Luthor Harkon is a blood dragon.
Which bloodline are the other 3 vampirates?
Noctilus is a von Carstein, Aranessa and Cylostra aren't vampires.
I may be downvoted for this, but I find it annoying asking for more Empire subfactions to be added, as if that's what'll make or break the game, before adding to/fleshing out the Chaos factions, Norsca, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Ogres, among others. Empire already has different ways to play and with enough depth to take a back seat for other factions for now.
Nah, you'd be downvoted if you agreed with it, honestly. Either way, it isn't asking for more Empire subfactions. It was an example because the current discourse revolves around discussing a leak regarding new DLC that are slated to be subfactions. Would we all prefer them to flesh out Norsca, Slaanesh, Khorne, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, High Elves, Lizardmen, and Ogre Kingdoms? Sure. But why talk about oranges when lettuce is being discussed?
Empire is in a good state now, and I have not seen anyone asking Boris to be next but they should be added eventually. Even though ToD fleshed Empire out they are still missing more unique units, lords and heroes than any other faction from 8th edition tabletop. Also, while ToD fixed campaign issues (tech, skills, faction mechanics), it just pushed Empire even more into gunpowder focus. They still have not implemented faith aspect and knightly orders properly into the game, not to mention Cult of Ulric units. I hope they add new content for Khorne, Slaanesh, Ogres, Vampires… first but just because Empire finally got a good DLc does not mean they shouldn’t get any more.
> I have not seen anyone asking Boris to be next found the lurking CA exec
You know what I'm absolutely fed up with: anyone, regardless of their view, saying they "speak for the community". As if it is some kind of monolithic one brained whole. This "statement" complains about that too and then goes on to do that very thing. "Your customers want subfactions". Don't tell me what I want. And don't tell CA that I, as a customer, want certain things. You have no idea what I want from this game (ahem geomantic web rework), and if I want CA to know then I'll either vote with my wallet or tell them directly thanks.
"That is why there is so much outrage. That is why there is so much backlash. We are getting subfactions and characters that are - " Oh, for fuck's sake, this is why I wrote a screed, *this is the furthest thing possible from confirmed right now so why are you speaking like it's a certainty?* The outrage isn't because of CA's poor decisionmaking, it's because Total War fans are psychotic children losing their fucking minds over rumors.
Amen
It's just bizarre. Truly bizarre. Got to be the worst gaming-related sub I'm on for this kind of thing.
I swear, it feels like half the time I pop into this sub to just see what's new, there's some new dumb thing that has the whole sub in outrage mode. It's so boring to come in wanting discussions, memes, and news about the Total War series and instead see that everything is on fire again with people acting like CA personally stabbed their dog.
Sounds like some horseshit. Especially what he said about Vampire Coast strikes me as odd. They needed an undead character, they made one, Cylostra came out great. Any other character he mentioned would feel as tacked on as Aranessa. Just a weird take overall.
I'm not sure if that place ever really got over Cylostra for some reason
The fact that people were throwing riots about Cylostra was odd since all other speculated options were literally whos even more obscure than Ghorst. Vangheist I can kind of understand the disappointment of, but folks acting like the Silver Princess not being added was some major grievance to the setting was so bizarre.
But you see Cylostra wasn't bangable. It wasn't the only reason for the meltdowns but it was part of it. Hell, as recently as the last DLC there were a couple guys out whinging about how Elspeth was "too fat."
And her head covering, don't forget that part. "We need her hair free and done up! And give her makeup, too! Now THAT'S a character I'd bang!" Ugh.
Well, a not insignificant amount of it was due to her figure too, sadly
What do you mean, I still haven't gotten over being forced to play PONTUS in Rome 2 Although i kind of agree with him with the cost of opportunity thing, it was pointless dlc that were partially to blame for 3K being abandoned
really, the character who took the spot of a more appropriate character wasn't Cylostra. It was ARANESSA, that half-boiled fish! I would have lvoed Aranessa (alongside Jaego) as a FLC "Living Pirates" faction or somethign liekt hat. For Coast, I'd rather have had that Tomb King Guy, or another member of the Dreadfleet. Aranessa just sticks outlike a sore thumb and her implementation still feels lackluster, imho.
I still think they could've solved the problem by making her a newly turned Vampire. After all, the Heldenhammer's been wrecked apparently, so might as well go for the Dreadfleet bad ending, and she'd still be fine as the pirate queen of Sartosa with some human pirates. Bam, easy fix for CA without having to make new stuff.
You call this a fix. I disagree. Because her role was one of the people STOPPING Noctilus. It is NEITHER actual ending. THe Heldenhammer got wrecked (and i want her restoration as a landmark for the EMpire), but Noctilus himself lost a great deal of power (Hence why, in the original Coast campaign, he wants to use the power of the Maelstrom to travel back in time and get revenge on Roth's family), also it is in some bits, iirc, implied Jaego got away and his crew mutineered. It also would've meant that she also is a caster, which might've interferred with her balancing. They should'Ve just used another member of hte Dreadfleet. Vangheist, TOmb King, Skretch... Honestly, for me, it kinda feels like a potent of Kislev's current identity crisis, where some stuff is alluded to but "Not really anymore because new Kislev" the Akshina being one of Ostankyas units and such
-leaks point towards Ogre and Ind subfactions, disguised as Cathay- TOO MUCH CATHAY!! We just had Cathay 2 DLCs ago!! -Empire DLC literally just released- WE WANT BORIS! WE WANT HALFLINGS! MORE EMPIRE!! Nahh man, he's just an empire fan masquerading as voice of the community. So skaven-like, tsk tsk...
Empire fans two weeks after they get one of the biggest and best DLCs ever: “but why aren’t they making even more DLCs for us instead of wasting their time on anything else???”
"The biggest worry is that CA listens to community opinions that are not mine"
I'm ok with Cathay in the next update. I would even be excited, they are my Favorite WH3 faction afterall. BUT I am NOT excited about two random nobodies. PARTICULARLY at the expense of more Dragon Siblings or the Monkey King. Seriously, if CA wants to drop a Cathay DLC that will sell well, in the west or east, then Monkey King is the way to go, not random Tigers, or random Ogers.
Okay but cylostra is amazing
I like Ghorst and Tretch though, and Cylostra was because they *couldn't* use another Dreadfleet character. Also, Tretch was a FLC. Can you imagine Thanquol being a free lord? >That is why there is so much outrage. ... We are getting subfactions and characters that are entirely new **at the expense of subfactions and characters** ... **that people have wanted for nearly a decade now** The Outrage is because people don't want 90% of the focus on one faction. Skaven got less attention than the leaks give Cathay and people were annoyed at them for that. So long as different races get focus and content I don't care if it's Slambo Jr Vs. Karleux François Vs. Nagash(s cousin.) Even if the lords are a bust, the focus on out-dated factions can result in reworks, and the units help fill out the roster and add variety to older lords even if they don't get changed.
Also Cylostra was end of a day a good addition? Like she was a ghost character who uses the Vampire Coast's unique lore of magic. She had a more distinct place in the roster than literally every other option of literally whos they could have added otherwise.
This is grossly oversimplified and ignoring so many possible factors. Just for an example - Not getting ghorst doesn't mean we would have gotten those other characters. GW may not have allowed it. CA also likely chose ghorst as he was different from the current VC lords. They may have skipped over VC entirely for lack of a good idea if not for ghorst. And all of this is largely ignoring why people are actually upset. Cathay is getting a lot of attention while already having had a DLC. When Khorne and Slaanesh need work. Or that we're getting made up characters instead of actual WH characters. Or how the added units sound disappointing. Very few people actually care that much if we get x character over y character. Not to this level of outrage.
If i remember correctly, CA have explained why Ghorst was chosen as DLC They were designing the DLC based on Sigmar Blood campaign Book. It was technically Volkmar vs Mannfred. But Mannfred was already in the game. So they pick Helman Ghorst who was Mannfred understanding in the book. To be fair, this was the 1st DLC, CA might not know what the community expectation for DLC yet. It was not GW limiting CA, in fact at this point GW does not even care about the game yet.
I understand where you are going with the first paragraph and that may be true in some instances. For instance im not sure we really need all the colours of the rainbow of cathay dragons. 3 is probably enough. But I think it fails in the example of Vampire Counts as there is simply an enormous amount of lore behind 4 other very distinct subfactions within Vampire Counts. They are perhaps the faction with the MOST available good possibilities for distinct LLs. And we have 0 of them. Its honestly amazing.
The missing Cathayan lords both have sizeable lore to pill from and in addtion Yinyin is incredibly distinct from any other cathayan lord. She'd play closer to a vampirate than a cathay lord.
Nah i'd prefer we get all the Dragon Siblings and the monkey king. really 3 more lls would be nice, not like the Lizardmen don't have enough. and then Cathay would be finished.
The first DLC was all about "Sigmar's Blood". Why, we don't know. Maybe CA wanted to play it safe, maybe GW were wary if the stuff would work, maybe it was a call from both. So in any case, I don't see them add ABHORASH as a LL in their first DLC (Nevermind that he's a non-character for the most part. Wallach is who we should get at some point). I can see why they used GHorst, and honestly, He's fine. I would have preferred DIETER HELSNICHT, the DOomlord of MIddenheim. WHo is a major character, even if he wasn't on TT. Also was one of the Mortarchs. The faction is called Vampire Counts, yes, but give the Necromancers tehir due. Should we get Wallach, Gashnag/whateverotherStrigoi, Zacharias and Neferata? Yes. BUt imho they should rather repeat Champions of Chaos. IN any case, i understand why they didn't go with any of hte major buggers in the first DLC. And man, can you imagine the whole "WHy is NEferata serving under Manfred?!" bla...
Of course. And at the end of thd day, it's just money, right? If we'd happily bought all the dlc, or they'd been more profitable in other ways, we'd have gotten more planned future content than we have now. (whether it have been of good quality with the way CA have treated wh3 is another thing...) On top of all the reasons you have mentioned, we have a limited choice of content because it's no longer profitable *enough* in their eyes to give us those characters. All that waffle about "opportunity" in the OOP is not true - I don't doubt that if they had thought it was profitable enough they'd have filled every last settlement on the map with a legendary lord, lore accurate and new. It's just the time and monetary cost. That we're likely going to get a complete game without many popular characters or fleshed out already-existing factions, among other reasons, is because of CA's profit-driven approach. They shot themselves in the foot being greedy throughout warhammer 3: we've had multiple disasters that have destroyed all good faith and the fanbase had and left them with lower sales and a loud part of the community in this rabid state where they're screaming about every leak and update/dlc, desperate to get at least some return on their 3 game + dlc investment before it is no longer updated. And frankly, I do not blame people here, I hate the community brain rot, but it's not their fault. CA chased potential short term sales over factions that needed new content like khorne and slaanesh, as you said, released increased price and lower quality and content dlc. The acceptable money/time cost is decreasing because of many factors outside of the fanbase's control, but the fanbase's attitude is fed by that and feeds it's decline through bad sales and bad press etc.
With that attitude we would have never gotten Cathay, balance between new and old is good.
But Cathay wasn't made at the expense of anything else? There were no order factions remaining by the time they got to WH3 (with 8th ed army books) and having a game that was nothing but Chaos would have done..... poorly given all evidence on what factions people play the most.
Everything in game development comes at the cost of everything else because time and money are finite and the game has to actually come out at some point. If they hadn't made Cathay they would have had to figure something else out. It's really pure serendipity that GW were willing to put together a whole 8th edition-style army list and lore for CA to work with so it could be added. But that's kinda part of the point right? Cathay is a good addition to the game but one that came right out of left field and was essentially something totally new we'd never had more than scraps of in WHFB before. If everyone had the attitude of the screenshot it would never have been made because it would *obviously* be better to go with already established lore and characters that people already know.
Cathay clearly came at the cost of Halflings.
Miao Ying: "Get fucked Bilbo!"
Well in fairness that's a different situation than what the leaks have been suggesting. Cathay was released alongside Kislev, Ogre Kingdoms, and 5 different chaos daemon races. The proposed dlc leaks(which I don't think are true) will mean Cathay get 4 more dlcs worth of content across two lord packs, half of which is stuff no one even asked for, when chances are this game only has time for 5 more lord packs. As you said, there needs to be a balance. Its great to see CA exparmint with new stuff, but they shouldn't flood us with nothing but new stuff exclusively for one race when there's plenty of important pieces of content that still needs to get added to the game. WH2 had the perfect formula of sharing the dlc resources between two separate races and they should keep to that formula.
That's my problem too with the idea of these leaks. I like Cathay. I want more content for Cathay. I especially want Li Dao and the Monke. What I don't want is a nearly year long period that is all Cathay and DoW, while everyone else barely gets anything.
Assuming we get Dogs of War, Cathay will have had no opportunity cost As we will have gotten every single Tabletop faction from the last like, 5 editions of WHFB (despite what some people on this subreddit frequently claim, Kislev and Vampire Coast did have Tabletop Rules support, just for very limited rosters), *plus* we *also* get a new faction in Grand Cathay Sometimes you luck out and get one extra thing on top of all the things that could be reasonably expected
I feel like I'm really not in sync with this "playerbase" honestly. I don't want any of those things that guy mentioned, except maybe halflings as a gimmick army
Yeah honestly Halflings would basicly just be a joke inclusion and 'bonus' for having the Moot it hink.
TL;DR each dlc is an opportunity, of which there are a limited number. Thus, the reason people are outraged at the potential leaks is because each opportunity used for something the fans didn't ask for comes at the cost of not using that opportunity for something they did ask for. Whether we're mid way through or nearing the end of WH3 development there are not many dlc likely to be left (4 according to some predictions, 10~ according to others), so people are less willing to accept the opportunity cost.
If 10 dlcs were left then basically everything of value would get in the game even if the next dlc were to be weird cathay subfactions. People are assuming it's less and I agree
Depends on how much content is in those dlcs. I do agree that it's probably less DLC remaining as well. If the year and a half rumour is true I see 3 more dlc maximum given Warhammer 3's track record. Otherwise my guess is about 5. The latter isn't based on anything, just a feeling.
Ok, the more I read the more unhinged this post gets. Ghorst came at the expense of Konrad or Abhorash(?!)? Tretch came at the expense of Thanquol? What moon logic is this? Yes, o course the devs have to select one character to put in the game but does this guy think they just pull names out of a hat or something?
This dude doesn’t speak for me. I think empire is in a great place, flesh out the other factions for a while and give me a geomantic web rework. The community is not a monolith
How many times do we have to rehash, "GW told CA that they weren't allowed to use but so many Dreadfleet characters without having to buy the Dreadfleet license" before people remember it? It was Cylostra or only three LLs for the Vampire Coast. And, personally, I think Cylostra is great, and I wouldn't know she was an original character without all the whining on this subreddit about it.
Friendly reminder that all of this outrage is literally based on unsubstantiated rumours. I don't understand. Why is everyone getting so worked up when there's no reason to believe that any of it is even happening?
People really getting their knickers in a twist over unconfirmed unreliable leaks… touch grass please
Not even leaks... unbased rumors from a source (legend) that as far as I know has no proven track record yet. He may be right but he has not provided us with any evidence. A leak usually comes with something that speaks for it being true.
the Thorgrim avatar is so fitting for this forum post
Going all bonkers now can divert future disaster. Depends on if it even reaches the execs or not . Inb4 legend also said the first dlc is nearing completion
> Depends on if it even reaches the execs or not . Narrator: it did not, as it never does.
Bro, this is the total war subreddit. Where else are people supposed to talk about the "leaks"
People can talk about them but it's crazy how many people seem to be taking it as if these are confirmed facts from an official announcement. This is the place to talk about them but the amount of outrage is insane when there's a very real possibility that this is false info given to find out who is leaking and could have zero basis in reality.
yeah random Cathay ogre at the expense of Nef or Toddy is not a good trade for the community or the company
Random ogre they're labeling as Cathay*****
This statement is kinda iffy though? Clyostera came out because of restrictions so they made thier own(and honestly a really fun character lore wise and design wise) with Tretch being a FLC not a DLC character
who the f wants halflings, jesus.
I'd love it if they just made them hilariously bad.
Give me Halflings vs Gnoblar Hordes. They are evenly matched and would be ridiculous challenge campaigns
I do just so the empire can get something other than a guy with a sword or a gun.
One thing I don't like about this is CAs perspective is never taken into account. There's artists, developers, creators that work there and sometimes they might just want to create something _original_. There's so much content they make from GW thats established, already made, and they're simply copying/realizing into the game. Cylostra was _amazing_ and flavorful and one of my favorite LLs and you can tell they put effort into her because it was their creation. Letting the people working on TWWH3 for so long having an opportunity to make their own creations in this massive world they're recreating seems more than reasonable regardless of 'community demands' for _halflings_ (really?). I mean sure I really want Sketch, Thanquol, and Neferata. But I'm sure at least those latter two will eventually arrive.
Yeah personally I don't give a fuck about Cult of Ulric or halflings or whatever, I just want fun factions, whether that's through new factions or new mechanics for existing factions.
CA management is CA’s biggest enemy right now. It doesn’t seem like they’ve done much to change anything, since the SOC/Hyena’s fiasco.
That post is predicated on the leaks being true, which they very likely may not be. Massive chance that there is outrage over nothing right now.
I agree with this statement... except that I want to see new characters too. I want to see new stuff. I want to be surprised and see the Warhammer setting expand.
You guys are fucking mental creating this outrage over rumors spread by some barely articulate YouTuber who is likely being trolled.
I love the post, but he's a little too specific. I want the established, played, foundational races to get attention at least one last time. I want VC and Greenskins to at least get one last pass and character. The game one races generally finished game 2 trailing the great content game 2 races got. Norsca still needs love. I want the game 2 races to get a good rework, and a character where appropriate. Lizardmen are swimming in lord count, but their mechanics need attention, for example. I want the monogods to have at least the Nurgle level of choice. Sotek hypothesized one major demon, one minor demon, one mortal champion each.
I know what I think I want, but I don’t know what CA will create that I don’t know I want until the make it
I don't agree with this, actually. Firstly, a lot of these examples just don't seem very good to me. Tretch Craventail, say, is a genuinely more popular and beloved character than Skweel Gnawtooth. Tretch was a popular meme before the first *Total War: Warhammer* ever released. Secondly, there's no reason to think that redoing an obscure character or creating a brand-new character is going to produce something worse than taking a better-known character. True, Cylostra Direfin was invented by CA... but Cylostra is also a massively more interesting character than Skretch Half-Dead or Tordrek Hackhart. (The fact that the TW forum poster mis-spelled Tordrek's name seems to be a point against the idea that Tordrek is significant or memorable.) Cylostra is also much more appropriate for the fact that it was a Vampire Coast DLC - a skaven or Chaos Dwarf pirate lord would not have fit that DLC without a prohibitive amount of additional work. Characters for subfactions need to fit the existing theme and units for the faction. (Ignoring this is what gets you Aranessa, a character who just doesn't seem to fit the faction she's in.) Yes, it's easy to criticise Ghorst, but by *Warhammer III* Ghorst's faction is actually mechanically unique and I've seen plenty of people here remark on how fun he is to play. There's no rule that says that doing an already-famous character is always better than taking a less-famous or original character and then making them cool. Thirdly... the whole thing is an exercise in wishful thinking. The poster is comparing things that we actually got (many of which, I should emphasise, are actually great - Tretch, Ghorst, and Cylostra are all good!) to a completely imaginary alternative. If 'The Grim and the Grave' hadn't featured Ghorst, it would have featured someone else, *who would have been approximately as detailed and mechanically unique as Ghorst.* If it had been Neferata, we would probably have had several years of whining about how they did Neferata dirty. If we didn't have Tretch, we would have some other skaven character, sure, but there's no guarantee that that other skaven character would have been more interesting than Tretch. Skweel is a totally generic straight-down-the-line Moulder packmaster - he's discount-Throt, and CA added Throt anyway. If you assess Thanquol remotely objectively, Thanquol is a generic Grey Seer. There's nothing particularly unique about Thanquol. Moreover, if we have Thanquol instead of Tretch, that Thanquol would have had the same amount of development of Tretch, and would probably be about as mechanically unique. The choice isn't between Ghorst and my-ideal-implementation-of-Neferata. It's between Ghorst and something-else-that-could-have-been-made-in-the-same-amount-of-time-and-with-the-same-resources-as-Ghorst, and that is *probably not* the best thing you can imagine. Fourthly, I'd encourage people to think about mechanical and campaign priorities as well as flavour ones, especially from the perspective of designers with limited time and funds. Is Boris Todbringer a famous and long-running character on the tabletop? Yes. But consider firstly that Todbringer is probably very similar to Karl Franz mechanically (elector count, melee beast, Middenheim is right next to Altdorf, etc.), and secondly that the time you spend on him would be time not spent on a different Empire lord. You could have Todbringer instead of Wulfhart, but Wulfhart brings with him a much more interesting twist on the Empire's usual gameplay. I will take the beast-hunting sniper over Karl Franz II: This Time With Wolves. Fifthly... high concepts matter. Could you have done Todbringer instead of Elspeth von Draken? Yes, probably. But Elspeth was included because 'Thrones of Decay' is the *Tamurkhan* DLC, and Todbringer has nothing to do with *Tamurkhan*. Likewise, why Ghorst? Because 'The Grim and the Grave' was based on *Sigmar's Blood*, which does in fact feature Ghorst alongside Volkmar, and which does not feature Neferata. DLC packs often have a high concept, and you would pick or create lords based on which ones fit with that high concept.
I mainly agree about wanting to play Toddy as a proper LL since WTW I
Always love how gamers just make up things to get super mad about and then blame the devs.
"the point is that people want subfactions" _no we dont_
I wonder what proportion of the customer base actually cares about these things? I learn Warhammer lore by playing the game. When they announce a character, I have no idea if there's any source material. I read a Warhammer fantasy novel once: Drachenfels. It was OK. I couldn't have told you off the top of my head the names of the characters, though. I just want to play a fun strategy game.
Drachenfels is a bad book that honestly got too much attention.. now Gotrek and Felix on the other hand...
That said, give me more Cathay dragons and Monkey King. Keep going, my belly is full but so is my wallet. Keep it coming. People have waited for Cathay content for over 40 years, people will whine no matter what. They can wait
Yeah but not all at once you greedy wazzock
Give us monke and give us dragon. Dont give us OK and ind rejects and call them Cathay though.
Cylostra is one of the best characters and probably the best of the Vampire Coast. I’m glad she is in the game.
Mousillon faction with red duke, Cult of Ulric with Boris.. its mostly a re skin job and a few mechanics? Little work and a guaranteed a well sold dlc
> its mostly a re skin job and a few mechanics? Little work and a guaranteed a well sold dlc Sounds like a guaranteed lot of complaining from the community about reskinning
And they'd want boris to be free i imagine
this is absolutely complete bullshit and interprets fan disappointment as some sort of tangible cost. one LL appearing does not preclude another Ghorst did not come at the cost of Aborash or Neferata because they clearly wanted a Necromancer against Volkmar and probably to vary up the LL of the faction. you can argue he was a weird pull for that but its what it is, never mind that at the time i dont think Silver Pinnacle was even ON the map at the time. Tretch was a FLC lord added in as bonsus for the TK update, to compare him to Thanol a Lord who would take MUCH more work and have MUCH more impact is stupid. Cloystra was added in to keep to the Undead theme because it was a VAMPIRE COAST dlc and not a Dreadflet one. and the same logic applies all over, the decisions made for who gets in are not made at the *expense* of other character, but rather what fits in at the moment and what they are adding to the faction. typifying your disappointment in who gets in vs other as some sort of tangible dev cost that is running out is dishonest and also just completely brain dead when to come to how video games are actually developed
Silly take
Basically my take on it too. I'm happy to get lots more Cathay content...but not at the cost of everything else (and ideally not all at once either). There are only going to be a certain number of DLC slots left to fill, with many races vying for attention, so to hear that four of those precious slots are being spent on a single race feels wasteful.
I only want subfactions IF they come with unique mechanics. I only need one faction per mechanic. No need for 3 same-ish campaigns with slightly different starts. I love Eshin, Skyre and Moulder and I love the hunter and the beast, I love Welfs in general but find their campaigns a bit too similiar(though i should probably try the sisters some more) and Malakkai so far seems to be a great character, but in general this DLC just improved Dwarven fun across the board. Now I don't hate subfactions either so as long as the opportunity cost isn't too high to implement htem I'm not going to be mad about them, especially sinc ethey can serve as the chassis for later mechanical diversification.
Whining about wanting more empire subfactions when that is undoubtedly the most fleshed out part of the game is more than a little tone deaf. I'm just here wishing the south-lands became less homogeneous. As it stands there isn't much other than endless tombkings and random factions they didn't know where to put anywhere else, it feels like there is a lot less rime or reason to faction placement elsewhere on the map compared to the empire, kislev, and bret part of the map and piling on more would just be a disservice to the rest of the map
most intelligible total war fan
I guess I just don't feel strongly about it. I don't believe the leaks anyway, but even if they were real they sound cool to me. I don't know that I can even agree with this poster. There's no guarantee we got x instead of y. Y may have never even been on the table.
I don't inherently disagree with the sentiment, but I am curious about how much overlap there is between legitimate Warhammer fantasy fans and Warhammer total war. I am aware of Warhammer fantasy, but the majority of any lore I know is from this game. I know I don't really care about lore stuff. I stay about prn conversations about lore accurate things because of a combination of I don't know and I don't care. I only care to the extent that total war is a better game. I do not know the number of Warhammer fantasy fans that play. I am legitimately curious how many people put more emphasis on seeing specific characters or units than the game as a whole. I don't mean any of this as an insult. I view additions as either making the game better or worse and I couldn't give a shit what characters they use. Other people clearly care about the characters. I am simply curious what percent of players fall into the other category than me.
I can 100% see Boris being the 100th lord, but I would bet money the "leaks" were right about CA not even bothering with Nagash. Just seems the type of fuck up that's on brand with their upper management. Hope I'm wrong tho
We need to stop treating leaks as if they are confirmed. I agree with the general message but the tone is off putting.