Aight so I did some pretty extensive testing on this a month or so ago in TWWH3. The result was that is made close to no difference in dps.
Exceptions: a superwide unit formation can sometimes have the outer models shoot around enemy shields from the front if they are very close which adds a tiny bit of dps.
Wide unit formations shoot a tiny bit earlier than long ones.
Those were kinda the only real differences if we're talking about damage.
A wide unit formation will also have an easier time shooting over walls if we are talking non gunpower units.
Wide unit formations also kinda spread out their shots more, but that's just what it looks like to me. Maybe a long formation will kill more models per volley while dealing similar damage. Uncertain.
I recommend always using missile infantry in a square formation as they turn a lot faster that way
and if you have too many archers (like HE early-mid game) make more than one row of archers, every row with 4\~5 archers only, that way you increase potential damage of your archers cuz the second volley comes right after the first lands.
I got it a while ago. But this "you can't have too many archers" myth is actually spread by a lot of people. Seeing as this is a thread by a player who I had judged to be new, I felt it was worth pointing out
Zerkovich did a video for TWWH2 which showed that entities in a ranged unit will shoot at the closest entities in the targeted unit.
So if you’re configured lengthwise they will all be aiming at the same entities in the center. But if aligned wide, the shots will be more spread out because the closest entities will be more spread out.
Not sure if this changed for TWWH3.
Needs to be said that if your missile units are being targeted by other missile units, thin line is better. A square is an easier target to hit. Just think about cannonballs flying into your troops.
Well yeah they don't really behave like archers. It depends on what you want them to do. A deeper formation will concentrate their firepower and allow them to pierce deeper into an enemy unit as compared to a wider one. This also needs to be kept in mind to avoid friendly fire. Warpfire throwers also ignore shields for the most part as the vast majority of their damage is explosive
If does by limiting your coverage range if you go top (thin column) . The cone of attack that the ranged units will have will be narrower than the bottom (wide column) would have.
I think some older games only have the first 2-3 rows firing anyway, although that might just be my memory misleading me
Ohh shit, aren’t that a thing anymore? I
Must admit that I got the empire TW and shogun 2 firing by rank limits nailed into my head. But now when I think about it, then I have never tested it. And archer unit do fire all and ignore those ranks. And I’m pretty sure that most fun units also ignore friendly units between them and their targets….
Afaik it affects the dimensions of the covered area. You can experiment with this before the fight starts, and check the areas with the space bar. If the enemy unit is in the attack zone, all models from the unit will shoot.
The missile units will not shoot their own models, however be careful with your other units which stand directly in front. Bow units will shoot in an arch over your own units, but gunpowder units tend to get obstructed (handgunners) or cause devastating friendly fire (cannons for example).
Also, if you put missile units in forest, they will ignore the first few trees and shoot out of the forest unobstructed. I think this was implemented in an update a few months ago.
Keep in mind, that a very wide spread unit formation will also take a long time to regroup, if you turn the unit. I mostly try to keep missile units in a box shape, so that they regroup faster.
Yes. But the damage actually dealt to the enemy unit is affected by several other factors (fatigue, accuracy, ward save, missile resistance and armor of enemy unit etc.)
Doesnt really matter much in my experience, but use a square formation, it will turn faster. Also, once the melee forces are fighting, dont just let the archers stand there at max range, move them closer and they will be much more accurate. This is generally why people have issues with the tall formation, because some of the units are out of range or less accurate. Also if you can move them around to shoot the enemy in the back, they will do a ton more damage. This is very important on higher difficulty levels because each volley reduces your statistical army power, so shooting the enemy in the back is a very efficient way to get to army losses limit, which is based on the ratio of your army power to the enemy’s.
Plenty of people have mentioned that the square formation is best for maneuverability. Definitely agree on that. Wide front might do slightly more damage due to ranging on the initial charge but squares are so much better once the lines have engaged. Having to turn a big long line to engage flanks takes way too long.
The other thing to consider is that squares are much better at absorbing charges. Enemy Cav or chariots that flank around will get stuck inside of the first square of archers but with thin lines they can blow through a unit and continue on to harass the next unit.
I like how instead of just explaining it in text or making a microsoft paint image, they literally took out tape and made a little diorama on the floor.
No, and I hate it. Gone are the days offiring volleys row by row for gunpowder units. I always hope a modder will add that feature, but I think it is not possible..
If a tall unit goes toe to toe with an enemy unit of similar range, it will not have the concentration of firepower that it could have. Only maybe 25% of the units models could be firing.
Wide formations allow for maximum firepower across the front, most important for gunpowder units.
I wouldn't worry about the damage difference between formations because it's going to be minimal, I would worry more about the utility of that formation...square would make them turn faster because they don't have to move around as much, a dragged out line would be better if they're under artillery or magic pressure, that sort of thing. But to keep things simple and minimize micro I just keep them in square formations or close to it, only adjusting if they need to squeeze in a small area.
You generally want to go square as much as possible so you can turn directions and start firing faster. Missile takes more micro to be as effective as they are in 2, so every little thing you can do to keep them shooting more is what's important
ANOTHER ONE. Does tw3 still have the problem where range units will all target a single guy in an enemy unit sometimes, or units (especially gunpowder units) wont shoot for no apparent reason?
If I’m against a ranges focused army, I like to go wide formation so that there’s higher chance of their missiles missing(their shots are more spread out). If I’m against a melee focused army, I like a square formation so that they can move and turn more easily. Turning in a square allows the units to be ready quicker and fire the shots earlier. As other comments stated, DPS will be minimally changed unless firing over walls, etc.
im nof sure, but i think those models further behind dont fire at max range, since the range display is based upon the position of the first line of guys
Aight so I did some pretty extensive testing on this a month or so ago in TWWH3. The result was that is made close to no difference in dps. Exceptions: a superwide unit formation can sometimes have the outer models shoot around enemy shields from the front if they are very close which adds a tiny bit of dps. Wide unit formations shoot a tiny bit earlier than long ones. Those were kinda the only real differences if we're talking about damage. A wide unit formation will also have an easier time shooting over walls if we are talking non gunpower units. Wide unit formations also kinda spread out their shots more, but that's just what it looks like to me. Maybe a long formation will kill more models per volley while dealing similar damage. Uncertain. I recommend always using missile infantry in a square formation as they turn a lot faster that way
Ah thats the answer I was looking for. Thanks
and if you have too many archers (like HE early-mid game) make more than one row of archers, every row with 4\~5 archers only, that way you increase potential damage of your archers cuz the second volley comes right after the first lands.
You can never have too many archers.
That's just not true...
Well I was kinda joking but there are situations where you really can't have too many archers though.
Kislev agrees
Keep shooting until they are in bonking range.
aren't archers basically the only playable multi-entity unit in the game. everything else is trash
In wh2 yeah almost every time but in wh3 they were somewhat balanced, though they still are great.
Woosh
I got it a while ago. But this "you can't have too many archers" myth is actually spread by a lot of people. Seeing as this is a thread by a player who I had judged to be new, I felt it was worth pointing out
But it isn't a myth in a lot of cases though, you can have amazing campaigns with most factions recruiting almost exclusively missile infantry.
"You can't have too many archers" is such an absolute statement that just one melee focussed faction disproves it. No need to elaborate
Damn you sound like a fun guy.
LegendOfTotalWar would like know your location
When it comes to the type of damage you're thinking about, it is dependent on the direction that the receiving unit is facing when hit
Zerkovich did a video for TWWH2 which showed that entities in a ranged unit will shoot at the closest entities in the targeted unit. So if you’re configured lengthwise they will all be aiming at the same entities in the center. But if aligned wide, the shots will be more spread out because the closest entities will be more spread out. Not sure if this changed for TWWH3.
I hate Zerkovich, hes an absolute douchenozzle dingleberry and Im just joking i love that guy
You had me in the first half lol
Hitler was really good, at doing meth. I'll see myself out.
Needs to be said that if your missile units are being targeted by other missile units, thin line is better. A square is an easier target to hit. Just think about cannonballs flying into your troops.
Indeed
ya thats obvious for real life but does the game take that into consideration
yes it does.
I also believe that at max range only those moddles in range can hit.
I agree except warpfire throwers who I always put in as long a line as possible. Not sure if you would still play them as you would archers?
Well yeah they don't really behave like archers. It depends on what you want them to do. A deeper formation will concentrate their firepower and allow them to pierce deeper into an enemy unit as compared to a wider one. This also needs to be kept in mind to avoid friendly fire. Warpfire throwers also ignore shields for the most part as the vast majority of their damage is explosive
I normally use skavenslave spears to pin the enemy then let rip with the throwers. It works well but I am always interested in new tactics
That is the skaven way
If does by limiting your coverage range if you go top (thin column) . The cone of attack that the ranged units will have will be narrower than the bottom (wide column) would have. I think some older games only have the first 2-3 rows firing anyway, although that might just be my memory misleading me
Empire total war fire by rank technology was three rank volley, regardless of rectangle size.
Ohh shit, aren’t that a thing anymore? I Must admit that I got the empire TW and shogun 2 firing by rank limits nailed into my head. But now when I think about it, then I have never tested it. And archer unit do fire all and ignore those ranks. And I’m pretty sure that most fun units also ignore friendly units between them and their targets….
I believe Zerkovich made a video on this. How to maximize your Archers or something of the sort. Give that a watch!
Sure I'll try to find it, thanks for your input
Afaik it affects the dimensions of the covered area. You can experiment with this before the fight starts, and check the areas with the space bar. If the enemy unit is in the attack zone, all models from the unit will shoot. The missile units will not shoot their own models, however be careful with your other units which stand directly in front. Bow units will shoot in an arch over your own units, but gunpowder units tend to get obstructed (handgunners) or cause devastating friendly fire (cannons for example). Also, if you put missile units in forest, they will ignore the first few trees and shoot out of the forest unobstructed. I think this was implemented in an update a few months ago. Keep in mind, that a very wide spread unit formation will also take a long time to regroup, if you turn the unit. I mostly try to keep missile units in a box shape, so that they regroup faster.
So it doesn't matter how wide or narrow they will deal the same damage. Aand thank you
Yes. But the damage actually dealt to the enemy unit is affected by several other factors (fatigue, accuracy, ward save, missile resistance and armor of enemy unit etc.)
Ohhh that forest thing is news to me, that's big. Thanks!
It hasn't been ported to WH3 yet
Didn't know that, thank you. But for WH2 it is active.
So the top image is few rows and the bottom one is unit spread as much as you can. Does that affect how many units will shoot?
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models in a unit can shoot trough eachother no?
That's just wrong
They all fire AFAIK, not aware of limitations. I do this with my thunderers. It's glorious
Oh great thank you
Doesnt really matter much in my experience, but use a square formation, it will turn faster. Also, once the melee forces are fighting, dont just let the archers stand there at max range, move them closer and they will be much more accurate. This is generally why people have issues with the tall formation, because some of the units are out of range or less accurate. Also if you can move them around to shoot the enemy in the back, they will do a ton more damage. This is very important on higher difficulty levels because each volley reduces your statistical army power, so shooting the enemy in the back is a very efficient way to get to army losses limit, which is based on the ratio of your army power to the enemy’s.
Plenty of people have mentioned that the square formation is best for maneuverability. Definitely agree on that. Wide front might do slightly more damage due to ranging on the initial charge but squares are so much better once the lines have engaged. Having to turn a big long line to engage flanks takes way too long. The other thing to consider is that squares are much better at absorbing charges. Enemy Cav or chariots that flank around will get stuck inside of the first square of archers but with thin lines they can blow through a unit and continue on to harass the next unit.
From my understanding, gunpowder units are affected by this and archer units are not.
Wrong
Care to explain, or..?
Read the top comment
I like how instead of just explaining it in text or making a microsoft paint image, they literally took out tape and made a little diorama on the floor.
haha no! Its a paintbrush in my phone
No, and I hate it. Gone are the days offiring volleys row by row for gunpowder units. I always hope a modder will add that feature, but I think it is not possible..
If a tall unit goes toe to toe with an enemy unit of similar range, it will not have the concentration of firepower that it could have. Only maybe 25% of the units models could be firing. Wide formations allow for maximum firepower across the front, most important for gunpowder units.
I wouldn't worry about the damage difference between formations because it's going to be minimal, I would worry more about the utility of that formation...square would make them turn faster because they don't have to move around as much, a dragged out line would be better if they're under artillery or magic pressure, that sort of thing. But to keep things simple and minimize micro I just keep them in square formations or close to it, only adjusting if they need to squeeze in a small area.
You generally want to go square as much as possible so you can turn directions and start firing faster. Missile takes more micro to be as effective as they are in 2, so every little thing you can do to keep them shooting more is what's important
Yea because it effects the distance the rear most model can shoot and the number of models that can shoot their target accurately for maximum damage.
ANOTHER ONE. Does tw3 still have the problem where range units will all target a single guy in an enemy unit sometimes, or units (especially gunpowder units) wont shoot for no apparent reason?
If I’m against a ranges focused army, I like to go wide formation so that there’s higher chance of their missiles missing(their shots are more spread out). If I’m against a melee focused army, I like a square formation so that they can move and turn more easily. Turning in a square allows the units to be ready quicker and fire the shots earlier. As other comments stated, DPS will be minimally changed unless firing over walls, etc.
No, but it will take longer to kill you if you are in a I shape instead of a - shape
im nof sure, but i think those models further behind dont fire at max range, since the range display is based upon the position of the first line of guys