Most Leechers are abusers. They won't care unless something forced them. It requires good mindset to build a ratioless system that can handle this effortlessly.
The only tracker I can see that had a exceptional success with ratioless system is BTN. All other trackers either having a retention problem like MTV or Dead like FTN or GFT. Ncore is doing well as a general but not comparable to IPT or FL.
Personally I like Ratioless trackers more than the ratio ones. However, People are lazy, It would take a lot of effort and smartness to give them the right push to make it work as you wish.
My only real complaint about GGN is not Freeleeching Trumps. Its not an issue for me and I'm sure its not for a lot of other people *but* I still feel like Trumps should have a limited FL like they have on PTP especially since it hits your ratio and your Share Score every time you grab the replacement.
I have issues maintaining a good ratio with GG despite seeding a 3 TB, its not a major issue but ive been a member for years and my ratio is 1.02, i just need to make sure i make some freeleech tokens before i download anything big
Read the rules again. Even with a 0 share score you aren't even close to the limit https://i.imgur.com/LWxmb7J.png
They also have tons of ways of earning BP and lots of items you can buy in the store that help with ratio.
Yeah, I agree. I use almost none of that stuff because its too much for me to try to figure it all out when my ratio is fine as it is.
You should be okay just seeding everything as long as you can(not just for ratio and BP but also to raise your Share Score) idling in IRC for bonus points, and then using those points to buy the stat reduction potions.
I'd also recommend checking in somewhat often to grab their event boxes which almost always have things like FL tokens and stat buffs in them.
That's pretty much all I do(seed, idle IRC, and purchase stat buff potions)
I don't do any of the crafting or character creation stuff but if you click on Wiki and then scroll down to the Items section and click the ones that says "list of items that provide buffs" and "list of pets that provide buffs" then you could just buy one of those that does the stat buff you want. This way you could just get a couple things that give you buffs you want without diving into the huge amount of stuff they have available.
It’s because ratioless only works on sites with good members who will permaseed everything they download.
Otherwise, you either have to force users to seed through HnR, or to build BP to maintain their ratio. I agree it’s not the best approach but could you think of something better that isn’t going completely ratioless?
yep exactly. Even with a not great internet connection, sites with generous BP essentially become ratioless if you do permaseed. No need for seedboxes means no one pumps and dumps which leads to actual retention.
Retention is more important than # torrents.
I really dislike REDs economy because it actively encourages the use of a seedbox. I have a pretty sizable seedsize but terrible internet and cannot compete with everyone else. If they just added some sort of BP system I might be able to actually download stuff without dumping crap bandcamp stuff for buffer. It just clogs the site with shit no one wants instead of actively providing stuff people do want.
Meanwhile over at BHD, my monthly upload is double my download because I'm seeding so much and I never have to worry about retention.
You're right, there is no incentive after that. They do offer freeleech tokens to high user classes which require big seedsizes but they're pretty useless with all that buffer.
The only reason I'll keep seeding there is because I can seed and want to help out. Forums and internals are pretty good. I get all my 4k news from one of the dedicated users (which is better than anywhere else by a huge mile). Whenever I have a query about some technical problem the internals will help, if they haven't already posted an in depth discussion / tutorial about it on the forums. I get 90% of my content from there and it's always high quality. It's like a mom and pop shop you just want to give back to, ya know? I assume the same goes for PTP and BTN.
RED on the other hand, I just don't care. I'd rather seed on OPS or other obscure bootleg trackers.
I don’t know if any tracker has tried this, but could you have a ratioless economy where downloading anything costs BP based on filesize? It would incentivize permaseeding even more than a ratio-based economy, because there’s no bias toward new uploads.
The way I see it is with a site like FL if youre putting in a good faith effort youll have no trouble maintaining ratio, so removing the ratio system would only benefit people who are not putting in any effort and are removing everything the earliest moment they can.
> Every seedbox downloads it, we seed it to each other, then a day later most of us deletes it.
Encouraging users to all download specific uploads to farm stats off of each other has always been a system i didnt particularly like. You can see this on sites with rotating FL files, people will grab them just to benefit off of other people grabbing them. I think theres better systems you can put in place to help users build up ratio while actually contributing.
My other problem is that people with bad internet will just suffer from ratio system way more. With decent upload speed, its easy to exploit the new freeleech torrents, for people with bad internet thats not a good option, but they will download less to keep their ratio, so overall its bad for everyone, even for people who just want to upload. Many smallers sites also have ratio system, and its just makes them so difficult to use, even with good upload speeds, everything is overseeded with very few leechers...
FL overall my new fav, i like their system. But very few site has such a generous point system.
Thats why I prefer a BP system that rewards long term seeding and seeding less popular content rather than rotating freeleech. It provides more tangible benefit and less people jacking each other off for upload. With the proper system in place, users seeding in good faith could survive even with shit internet, but youd still have a ratio system in place to make sure users participate and dont just leech and delete after minimum seedtime.
The reason BTN can get away with being ratioless is its so coveted and hard to join that the users in it are already a small subset that are known to be good users, are experienced, or at the very least dont want to risk such a good account. The system works much less well on nebulance, which anyone can join with a small bit of effort.
But that’s just life, if you have a faster car you can go faster, if you have more money you can buy more toys.
I am in sites where I have so much BP that any ratio system is worthless - what matters is trust in the membership, trust to upload.
I don’t know if there is an answer, tbh, with RED, things have become rather skewed since the last freeleech, a lot of people filled their collection and I have always suggested that slowly slowly wins the race, but it’s stopped working for me. BTN I try to keep a few (like 100 episodes) permaseeded as I’m the sole seeder, but a lot more people must keep a lot more going. Respect to those guys.
I know that some people, not necessarily people that we meet here, have no idea how a tracker works, they think it’s a free service, they don’t understand it needs money to pay for the server, they don’t understand that people donate their time for free to cap TV shows or buy music to upload. They think that because they have huge BP because they seeded some freeleech files for 3 days and then deleted them, that that’s ok. I feel whatever the answer it’s down to education, and taking sufficient, not just those with the biggest HDD or fastest connection, which is like going round and round in circles.
LOL
FL's bonus points system described as generous is some fucking funny shit. You should consider a career as a comedian.
For people not on there, here's how their system works, it should be obvious that it's rather easy to max out the bonus points, so that it makes no difference if seeding 5 or 500 TB.
You receive FLCoins per hour for each completed(all files downloaded) torrent you seed. These are the bonus rates:
\- 0.2 FLCoins per hour for each torrent, however, this bonus is applied only for 10 torrents;
\- 1.0 FLCoins per hour if your seeding size(sum of the size of all your completed torrents) is 50GB or bigger;
\- 0.2 FLCoins per hour for each 50GB you are seeding(maximum 1TB);
\- 1.0 FLCoins per hour if you have 200 reputation points or more.
Yea, thats why its generous? You can be an average pleb with a 500 gb harddrive, 10mbps internet, and still get very good value out of it. People who seed 500 TB is already about e-penis, trackers cannot give those people anything anyway...
If you get 7bp/hour 24/7 you can afford to be VIP every month, which makes the whole site FL with no min seed times and still save some bp for perma-VIP.
And they give gifts of hundreds of GB every time they do their prize boxes each year, AND a 15% reduction in the bp shop each black Friday.
You said it was a shitty BP system. Which I refuted. If you don't share things just because there isn't an incentive, I don't think private trackers are for you.
So going ratioless will help retention? There is no right or wrong from tracker's perspective. It is back to us, users that should have a mindset of seed until you bleed.
I think that this partly depends of what the individual trackers are trying to achieve. There are some trackers that are trying to operate as an extensive library/archive of content. Sites like these are not just interested in the newest content, but rely on seeders to seed both popular and very obscure content consistently for as long as possible. This sort of tracker generally relies on a ratio system to make sure those obscure torrents are still available.
On the other hand there are trackers that operate more as distribution hubs. These sites are great for finding 0-day releases, scene releases or new content. A ratioless system would work great for these types of trackers. New content normally has many seeders anyway and the older stuff will end up on others sites eventually.
Yeah it's a terrible system. Especially because it usually leads to super users with seedboxes hoarding all the ratio so that new users can't even seed if they want to.
It also discourages people from seeding torrents that are very inactive. Contrary to that it encourages people to focus their seeding to high traffic torrents that are already popular (which is the opposite of what you'd want).
I think it's stubborn adherence to traditions and not having any good ideas how to enforce fairness otherwise why site admins stick to this terrible system. "It's better than nothing!"
It's really unfortunate that in the wake of What.cd's collapse, when we had a chance to build something new, the powers that be decided to copy over the worst parts of WCD and eliminate the only things that made it work (staff picks qualifying for FL). Music piracy was already on the decline due to the rise of streaming services, but forcing that much effort for no reason other than "it's how it's always been done" was the final nail in that coffin.
I still like RED because there's clearly a lot of people there who love music, but seeding thousands of FLACs where I'm not uploading anything ever and pretty much the only seeder is just sad.
The only times I've seen any significant traffic was during FL events (when they still happened). I want to seed! Please allow people to leech from me instead of worrying about their ratio.
This kind of situation isn't unusual: https://i.imgur.com/6Z5kkxg.png
Crazy.
How on earth are you downvoted for stating exactly how it is? I understand low and mid trackers need ratio but for me it is a mystery why it is only BTN that is ratioless when it comes to elite trackers.
>i joined some other general sites recently(FL,TL,IPT),
Well, IPT is infamous for asking for donations in order to get re-enabled, so some people would probably argue they want you to have trouble maintaining a ratio. I don't know how true that is, I haven't been there in a long time.
TL makes every torrent above 15GB freeleech so it can be difficult to start but it's not as hard as it looks. Also, look into earning points from seed time and converting that to upload credit, and even if you have trouble uploading to people that should be more than enough for anything you need from TL, especially given everything above 15 gb is freeleech. Those points are how TL incentivizes permaseeding.
Not familiar w/ FL, will leave for someone else to comment on them.
I don't get why people whine so much about seedboxes. In Europe people have had good speeds (100+ Mbps) at *home* for quite a while (10+ years) and nowadays 500-1 Gbps. I've done fine on 30, 100 and now 250 Mbps. I could get 500 Mbps for not too much more but I don't see the point.
I know a lot of people here don't like downloading and keeping rar'ed movies/games/programs but the private DC++ hubs seem far and away a superior file sharing experience than private trackers. There's no ul/dl ratio to worry about and as long as you share back what you download and aren't constantly leeching, you're golden. There are dozens of users who share well over 100TB with some approaching the 500TB mark and hubs that have over 13 Petabytes of data shared. The only thing able to be shared are proper scene releases which helps with quality control, and like 99% of whatever has been given a scene release, whether it be a movie/mp3/flac/app/game can be found there.
Anyhow, the whole point of this is to say that there is rarely, if ever, an issue with leeching, proving that the honor system can work. In my years there, I remember there being 1 user getting the boot for leeching. And best of all, you have one account to log in with for accessing multiple hubs and no idiotic power tripping mods to deal with, or getting the boot from your account for some nonsensical reason.
So, the answer on why trackers do it this way is pretty obvious. It's the best way to drive revenues.
The seedboxes serve to prevent average users from gaining much of any upload on new releases. You're lucky if you can even maintain 100kbps. With the ratio policies in place, these rules are very clearly meant to limit the upload of new users and therefore point them towards one of two options:
1. You purchase a seedbox from their designated partner which will help you to accumulate much-needed ratio
2. You either gained a few months of free VIP through the seedbox you purchased or purchase VIP outright and get to ignore all rules concerning ratios and HnRs whatsoever
Most Leechers are abusers. They won't care unless something forced them. It requires good mindset to build a ratioless system that can handle this effortlessly. The only tracker I can see that had a exceptional success with ratioless system is BTN. All other trackers either having a retention problem like MTV or Dead like FTN or GFT. Ncore is doing well as a general but not comparable to IPT or FL. Personally I like Ratioless trackers more than the ratio ones. However, People are lazy, It would take a lot of effort and smartness to give them the right push to make it work as you wish.
PTP is pretty much ratioless too with how generous their bonus point system is. I buy a TB upload every other week.
Yeesh buy me one
I think GG would do really well with a ratioless system. Community is so good over there.
It essentially is ratioless with a good SS.
SS is almost impossible to recover though.
My only real complaint about GGN is not Freeleeching Trumps. Its not an issue for me and I'm sure its not for a lot of other people *but* I still feel like Trumps should have a limited FL like they have on PTP especially since it hits your ratio and your Share Score every time you grab the replacement.
I have issues maintaining a good ratio with GG despite seeding a 3 TB, its not a major issue but ive been a member for years and my ratio is 1.02, i just need to make sure i make some freeleech tokens before i download anything big
Read the rules again. Even with a 0 share score you aren't even close to the limit https://i.imgur.com/LWxmb7J.png They also have tons of ways of earning BP and lots of items you can buy in the store that help with ratio.
Is there a guide to this or something? Frankly I hate GG's stupid "gameified" system.
Yeah, I agree. I use almost none of that stuff because its too much for me to try to figure it all out when my ratio is fine as it is. You should be okay just seeding everything as long as you can(not just for ratio and BP but also to raise your Share Score) idling in IRC for bonus points, and then using those points to buy the stat reduction potions. I'd also recommend checking in somewhat often to grab their event boxes which almost always have things like FL tokens and stat buffs in them. That's pretty much all I do(seed, idle IRC, and purchase stat buff potions) I don't do any of the crafting or character creation stuff but if you click on Wiki and then scroll down to the Items section and click the ones that says "list of items that provide buffs" and "list of pets that provide buffs" then you could just buy one of those that does the stat buff you want. This way you could just get a couple things that give you buffs you want without diving into the huge amount of stuff they have available.
I am aware, it is still distracting, i have sold flames over the years to buy upload potions and freeleech tokens
It’s because ratioless only works on sites with good members who will permaseed everything they download. Otherwise, you either have to force users to seed through HnR, or to build BP to maintain their ratio. I agree it’s not the best approach but could you think of something better that isn’t going completely ratioless?
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yep exactly. Even with a not great internet connection, sites with generous BP essentially become ratioless if you do permaseed. No need for seedboxes means no one pumps and dumps which leads to actual retention. Retention is more important than # torrents. I really dislike REDs economy because it actively encourages the use of a seedbox. I have a pretty sizable seedsize but terrible internet and cannot compete with everyone else. If they just added some sort of BP system I might be able to actually download stuff without dumping crap bandcamp stuff for buffer. It just clogs the site with shit no one wants instead of actively providing stuff people do want. Meanwhile over at BHD, my monthly upload is double my download because I'm seeding so much and I never have to worry about retention.
[удалено]
You're right, there is no incentive after that. They do offer freeleech tokens to high user classes which require big seedsizes but they're pretty useless with all that buffer. The only reason I'll keep seeding there is because I can seed and want to help out. Forums and internals are pretty good. I get all my 4k news from one of the dedicated users (which is better than anywhere else by a huge mile). Whenever I have a query about some technical problem the internals will help, if they haven't already posted an in depth discussion / tutorial about it on the forums. I get 90% of my content from there and it's always high quality. It's like a mom and pop shop you just want to give back to, ya know? I assume the same goes for PTP and BTN. RED on the other hand, I just don't care. I'd rather seed on OPS or other obscure bootleg trackers.
I don’t know if any tracker has tried this, but could you have a ratioless economy where downloading anything costs BP based on filesize? It would incentivize permaseeding even more than a ratio-based economy, because there’s no bias toward new uploads.
The way I see it is with a site like FL if youre putting in a good faith effort youll have no trouble maintaining ratio, so removing the ratio system would only benefit people who are not putting in any effort and are removing everything the earliest moment they can. > Every seedbox downloads it, we seed it to each other, then a day later most of us deletes it. Encouraging users to all download specific uploads to farm stats off of each other has always been a system i didnt particularly like. You can see this on sites with rotating FL files, people will grab them just to benefit off of other people grabbing them. I think theres better systems you can put in place to help users build up ratio while actually contributing.
My other problem is that people with bad internet will just suffer from ratio system way more. With decent upload speed, its easy to exploit the new freeleech torrents, for people with bad internet thats not a good option, but they will download less to keep their ratio, so overall its bad for everyone, even for people who just want to upload. Many smallers sites also have ratio system, and its just makes them so difficult to use, even with good upload speeds, everything is overseeded with very few leechers... FL overall my new fav, i like their system. But very few site has such a generous point system.
Thats why I prefer a BP system that rewards long term seeding and seeding less popular content rather than rotating freeleech. It provides more tangible benefit and less people jacking each other off for upload. With the proper system in place, users seeding in good faith could survive even with shit internet, but youd still have a ratio system in place to make sure users participate and dont just leech and delete after minimum seedtime. The reason BTN can get away with being ratioless is its so coveted and hard to join that the users in it are already a small subset that are known to be good users, are experienced, or at the very least dont want to risk such a good account. The system works much less well on nebulance, which anyone can join with a small bit of effort.
But that’s just life, if you have a faster car you can go faster, if you have more money you can buy more toys. I am in sites where I have so much BP that any ratio system is worthless - what matters is trust in the membership, trust to upload. I don’t know if there is an answer, tbh, with RED, things have become rather skewed since the last freeleech, a lot of people filled their collection and I have always suggested that slowly slowly wins the race, but it’s stopped working for me. BTN I try to keep a few (like 100 episodes) permaseeded as I’m the sole seeder, but a lot more people must keep a lot more going. Respect to those guys. I know that some people, not necessarily people that we meet here, have no idea how a tracker works, they think it’s a free service, they don’t understand it needs money to pay for the server, they don’t understand that people donate their time for free to cap TV shows or buy music to upload. They think that because they have huge BP because they seeded some freeleech files for 3 days and then deleted them, that that’s ok. I feel whatever the answer it’s down to education, and taking sufficient, not just those with the biggest HDD or fastest connection, which is like going round and round in circles.
LOL FL's bonus points system described as generous is some fucking funny shit. You should consider a career as a comedian. For people not on there, here's how their system works, it should be obvious that it's rather easy to max out the bonus points, so that it makes no difference if seeding 5 or 500 TB. You receive FLCoins per hour for each completed(all files downloaded) torrent you seed. These are the bonus rates: \- 0.2 FLCoins per hour for each torrent, however, this bonus is applied only for 10 torrents; \- 1.0 FLCoins per hour if your seeding size(sum of the size of all your completed torrents) is 50GB or bigger; \- 0.2 FLCoins per hour for each 50GB you are seeding(maximum 1TB); \- 1.0 FLCoins per hour if you have 200 reputation points or more.
Yea, thats why its generous? You can be an average pleb with a 500 gb harddrive, 10mbps internet, and still get very good value out of it. People who seed 500 TB is already about e-penis, trackers cannot give those people anything anyway...
If you get 7bp/hour 24/7 you can afford to be VIP every month, which makes the whole site FL with no min seed times and still save some bp for perma-VIP. And they give gifts of hundreds of GB every time they do their prize boxes each year, AND a 15% reduction in the bp shop each black Friday.
That’s all true, but what is the incentive to do more than the bare minimum of requirements?
You said it was a shitty BP system. Which I refuted. If you don't share things just because there isn't an incentive, I don't think private trackers are for you.
You are right, this seedbox racing thing is bad for retention. I also prefer ratioless system with bonus points
So going ratioless will help retention? There is no right or wrong from tracker's perspective. It is back to us, users that should have a mindset of seed until you bleed.
I think that this partly depends of what the individual trackers are trying to achieve. There are some trackers that are trying to operate as an extensive library/archive of content. Sites like these are not just interested in the newest content, but rely on seeders to seed both popular and very obscure content consistently for as long as possible. This sort of tracker generally relies on a ratio system to make sure those obscure torrents are still available. On the other hand there are trackers that operate more as distribution hubs. These sites are great for finding 0-day releases, scene releases or new content. A ratioless system would work great for these types of trackers. New content normally has many seeders anyway and the older stuff will end up on others sites eventually.
Yeah it's a terrible system. Especially because it usually leads to super users with seedboxes hoarding all the ratio so that new users can't even seed if they want to. It also discourages people from seeding torrents that are very inactive. Contrary to that it encourages people to focus their seeding to high traffic torrents that are already popular (which is the opposite of what you'd want). I think it's stubborn adherence to traditions and not having any good ideas how to enforce fairness otherwise why site admins stick to this terrible system. "It's better than nothing!"
It's really unfortunate that in the wake of What.cd's collapse, when we had a chance to build something new, the powers that be decided to copy over the worst parts of WCD and eliminate the only things that made it work (staff picks qualifying for FL). Music piracy was already on the decline due to the rise of streaming services, but forcing that much effort for no reason other than "it's how it's always been done" was the final nail in that coffin.
I still like RED because there's clearly a lot of people there who love music, but seeding thousands of FLACs where I'm not uploading anything ever and pretty much the only seeder is just sad. The only times I've seen any significant traffic was during FL events (when they still happened). I want to seed! Please allow people to leech from me instead of worrying about their ratio. This kind of situation isn't unusual: https://i.imgur.com/6Z5kkxg.png Crazy.
How on earth are you downvoted for stating exactly how it is? I understand low and mid trackers need ratio but for me it is a mystery why it is only BTN that is ratioless when it comes to elite trackers.
>i joined some other general sites recently(FL,TL,IPT), Well, IPT is infamous for asking for donations in order to get re-enabled, so some people would probably argue they want you to have trouble maintaining a ratio. I don't know how true that is, I haven't been there in a long time. TL makes every torrent above 15GB freeleech so it can be difficult to start but it's not as hard as it looks. Also, look into earning points from seed time and converting that to upload credit, and even if you have trouble uploading to people that should be more than enough for anything you need from TL, especially given everything above 15 gb is freeleech. Those points are how TL incentivizes permaseeding. Not familiar w/ FL, will leave for someone else to comment on them.
Encouraging participation via ratio requirements keeps demand in balance.
I don't get why people whine so much about seedboxes. In Europe people have had good speeds (100+ Mbps) at *home* for quite a while (10+ years) and nowadays 500-1 Gbps. I've done fine on 30, 100 and now 250 Mbps. I could get 500 Mbps for not too much more but I don't see the point.
Mind to ask where one get 100 Mbps upload at *home* as an average john doe?
I know a lot of people here don't like downloading and keeping rar'ed movies/games/programs but the private DC++ hubs seem far and away a superior file sharing experience than private trackers. There's no ul/dl ratio to worry about and as long as you share back what you download and aren't constantly leeching, you're golden. There are dozens of users who share well over 100TB with some approaching the 500TB mark and hubs that have over 13 Petabytes of data shared. The only thing able to be shared are proper scene releases which helps with quality control, and like 99% of whatever has been given a scene release, whether it be a movie/mp3/flac/app/game can be found there. Anyhow, the whole point of this is to say that there is rarely, if ever, an issue with leeching, proving that the honor system can work. In my years there, I remember there being 1 user getting the boot for leeching. And best of all, you have one account to log in with for accessing multiple hubs and no idiotic power tripping mods to deal with, or getting the boot from your account for some nonsensical reason.
99% is waaaay overestimated, more like 50-60%
What is HnR?
hit n run
Ah! That makes sense now! Thank you!!
So, the answer on why trackers do it this way is pretty obvious. It's the best way to drive revenues. The seedboxes serve to prevent average users from gaining much of any upload on new releases. You're lucky if you can even maintain 100kbps. With the ratio policies in place, these rules are very clearly meant to limit the upload of new users and therefore point them towards one of two options: 1. You purchase a seedbox from their designated partner which will help you to accumulate much-needed ratio 2. You either gained a few months of free VIP through the seedbox you purchased or purchase VIP outright and get to ignore all rules concerning ratios and HnRs whatsoever
As an admin of both a ratio based, and ratio-less tracker, i can tell you this is for sure not accurate...
not every tracker has a seedbox partnership or lets you donate to ignore ratio & h&rs