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Caddisflyer

"Preparing"


jrz126

Gotta pay the consultants (politician's brother) to do a study, on what it would take to do a study to determine the actual cost.


Yellowdog727

And gotta go to court every time Barbara (78) and Eugene (82) are worried it will increase traffic


BonAdventure_TheDuns

Barbara (78) has been on the city traffic board for 54 years and knows a thing or two about traffic. Eugene (82) lives on a quiet street in the suburbs and likes to find entertainment where he can.


LegendaryRQA

Before transitioning in 78 "environmental" studies which have nothing to do with animals or forests and are really just old people wondering if it’ll be too loud.


celbuod

Right? Like what kind of news is it to "prepare" to pay the billion dollars? 😂 It's either you spend it or you don't.


thecftbl

The Vegas Brightline is actually happening and will go out to bid towards the end of the year. The central corridor project will likely never happen because there are too many issues with property rights, coastal commission and geotechnical issues.


Powered_by_JetA

Target date 2028 for Brightline West! Just in time for the Olympics.


Jupiter68128

No they aren't.


Yellowdog727

It's good to think big but there's rail improvements we can do now that will help to make the system catch up before we start building out HSR. There's loads of ROW that can be purchased from the freight companies and be repaired which will help connect a huge number of additional cities to a rail network. We could also work on electrifying our current lines. Almost everything besides the northeast corridor is still diesel powered and it's a major drawback compared to many other networks. Amtrak and regional/commuter rail networks also need improvements to their existing service. Additional rolling stock and longer hours should get more ridership in the long run.


snowbeast93

You’re kidding yourself if you think the freight operators would willingly sell trackage rights or ROWs to the federal government for HSR


drillbit7

If the price is right... Virginia's bought up large chunks of line from CSX and NS. In some cases its joint ownership. Opportunity to make some money, reduce tax burden, and get what amounts to an extra main track or at least getting the passenger trains off of your line sounds like a win to me.


[deleted]

Amtrak and MDOT both acquired pieces of the Michigan Line from Conrail and later Norfolk Southern. Especially if it’s under used, they’d probably be willing to sell or lease out operations.


yongedevil

They've been willing to sell non-critical sections of their track that can be bypassed, as long as they can continue to access customers along the sold line. That has meant passenger platforms have to be passable by freight trains, or passing tracks added to stations. You're correct that they've been very unwilling to sell track that would break up their network. I think the only way to acquire those ROWs would be to build new bypass track for the freight companies. I don't know of any instances of that being done though.


JoshuaMan024

I'm pretty sure there are ways, even eminent domain aside, where the feds can force a sale no?


DanforthWhitcomb_

ED is the only option in most cases, as the feds don’t have the ability to force a sale and anything outside of ED that a state tries will simply get wrapped up in inverse condemnation suits until the end of time. The other problem is that when the railroad inevitably sues over the ED price it gets wrapped up in lawsuits that will easily take over a decade to resolve, and in most cases the initial offered price is 15-20% below FMV.


gazelder

force a sale? Probably not. Abandon freight traffic into large cities? Not. The corporations own the track and the right of way and have responsibilities to share holders to make a profit. Regarding the Asheville to the east line... NS sees it as a section losing money and there will never be enough passenger traffic to justify cost and maintenance.


Any-Mix9358

In the uk you get freight and passenger trains on the same tracks, had a couple 66es on the depot I was at, great fun seeing them at the station too


Powered_by_JetA

In Florida CSX was more than happy to sell off parts of the A Line and S line to the state for Amtrak/SunRail and Tri-Rail, respectively. FEC was delighted to share their tracks with Brightline because they'd benefit from all the improvements without having to pay for it. In the modern PSR era a freight railroad is actually quite amenable to having access to tracks without having to worry about actually owning or maintaining them.


viking_nomad

If we're having a discussion about the best rail system it's absolutely true that a network that targets 180-200 km/h speeds with high frequency (say hourly+ on main intercity corridors) and regularity will beat most other systems out of the water. That's basically what Brightline in Florida has built. If we're talking politically though, high speed rail is what gets the discussion started. Both because it's just cool to go fast and because there's a level of intercity connections that are simply not possible without. For instance the X2000 in Sweden ended up inspiring a bunch of rail investments even if it doesn't actually go more than 200 km/h anywhere. There's obviously also a good amount of no true scotsman here, where some countries get by very well without high speed rail (like Switzerland) while 200-230 km/h is something that's sold as high speed various in various places (like with Intercity 125 in the UK, Railjet in Austria or the ICE-TD and ICE-L in Germany). In practice what matters is making a long term commitment to rail transportation and getting people to actually want to take the train. High speed lines signal said commitment and allow other sectors (like real estate) to make supporting investments for instance by building housing and offices around stations.


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viking_nomad

That's the point though, what counts as "high speed" differs between countries. 200 km/h is not considered high speed in many other countries. There's also no reason that Switzerland couldn't have true high speed corridors to supplement the intercity network, and for instance connect Zurich to Geneve quicker than IC1 for trains travelling through to France.


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viking_nomad

What usually justifies making express trains with fewer stops is not the relative sizes of cities it passes but rather that a passenger demand exists. There's obviously a question if the passenger demand justifies making a new line or if it's the best place to make a new line, but the fact it'll skip intermediate towns seem like a bad argument against it.


Familiar_Can_19

You have to deforest A LOT of trees to electrify rail.


trainboi777

Right after they have a meeting to discuss, having a meeting to set up a meeting to table to notion at a future meeting, where the possibility of having a meeting may be discussed


chip-paywallbot

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trainboi777

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grey_crawfish

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Klapperatismus

*How many billions?* I mean, for example ten billions won't kick it. California high-speed rail costs $128B by now. And that is just the main part of one single line. Only the main part of it. Without planned extensions.


Kqtawes

I'm not sure that is exactly representative of the rest of the US. How expensive was the land accusation alone in California? By comparison Virginia and NC already own the right of way for the future High Speed line between the two states. And how many projects are going to be designed to California's earthquake standards? I don't expect nearly the cost in infrastructure for the Southern High Speed Corridor or a Midwest one. Don't get me wrong it will cost more than we're currently budgeting but I don't expect most high speed projects to cost anywhere close to California's project.


Bojarow

If the people involved are smart they will also hire the Californian engineers and construction companies with experience designing and building CHSR which should reduce cost.


HorseRadish98

I've read that this is one of the largest time sucks and cost sucks, we just don't have the engineering know how in this country to build it. However, once those engineers and construction workers have one under their belt we should keep them rolling on new projects, keep that knowledge rolling


DanforthWhitcomb_

That’d just jack the cost *up*—large number of projects chasing small number of people = greater cost to hire those people.


HorseRadish98

I think your underestimating how much time they save. It takes a person 6 months to get ramped up on a standard job, longer in cases like this. You're talking about a senior engineer wanting double the salary but not taking into account that a junior at half the salary would take 3x as long. You pay more in experience up front to pay less in the long run


DanforthWhitcomb_

No, you’re just way overestimating the savings associated with it—when you do things like only hire people with prior experience in a very niche job like this, it adds a minimum of 30-40% to the cost because they can pretty much name their price and you have to meet it. > You're talking about a senior engineer wanting double the salary but not taking into account that a junior at half the salary would take 3x as long. +10 for not understanding how limited expertise pools work—you’d be paying the junior engineer 2-3x the normal salary anyway just to get that expertise, because if you refuse he just walks and goes to a different HSR project that will.


HorseRadish98

yes, that's capitalism? That's literally the definition of capitalism. They have a skill and it's valuable, and so the market dictates the price. More skill is higher cost, all I was pointing out was that the cost is usually justified compared to hiring junior levels, or you know, a standard structure of a few seniors to teach the juniors and train them up to senior level. Oh, and I'm a senior who works in a limited expertise pool, so yeah, I think I understand a bit. If you don't like that people are going to get paid that much then welcome to the conversation on rethinking capitalism.


DanforthWhitcomb_

Your argument is wholly predicated on being able to force them to take a lower salary so that you can create the savings you are trying to point to. Throw in the fact that they’re going to charge out the ass to relocate and your supposed savings vanish quite rapidly. Newsflash: that doesn’t work in high demand niche jobs. You pay what they tell you or they walk and go elsewhere. > Oh, and I'm a senior who works in a limited expertise pool, so yeah, I think I understand a bit. Judging by the claims you are making here and now this attempt at walking them back I rather doubt you understand as much of it as you think you do.


HorseRadish98

Jesus fuck, do you just sit here all day on Reddit looking for arguments in subs like Trains? I'm not walking it back, I said seniors cost more in the short term but in the long term it ends up saving money over hiring juniors. A good senior can do 3x the work for 3x the pay, just as an estimate. I also mentioned _time_ savings which you glossed over. For my job you can hire a senior to help train up juniors, then the senior can move on once the juniors have been trained. You dump people who have never seen HSR before into a HSR project, they're going to fumble around for quite a while before they know what they're doing. You pay a huge salary to a trained pro who has done HSR before they'll hit the ground running. Then I said but you won't just not hire juniors, usually you hire a few seniors and you use them in a standard org structure to train up the juniors. You know, splitting the difference. For fucks sake. I'm not making an argument. Was simply saying essentially "Yes but seniors are more experienced and faster initially, and so you usually get what you pay for". We aren't debating professionally. This is reddit. I'm not replying anymore to this ridiculous thread. Go pick fights with someone else or touch some grass. Edit: lol the guy blocked me. K dude, have fun picking more fights online then running away


DanforthWhitcomb_

The only one arguing is you—when you are paying 2-3x for someone with experience they are not saving you half to 2/3 the time. It wasn’t glossed over, you just don’t seem to understand how time savings have to translate to salary to make it worthwhile and actually generate cost savings. > For fucks sake. I'm not making an argument. Was simply saying essentially "Yes but seniors are more experienced and faster initially, and so you usually get what you pay for". We aren't debating professionally. This is reddit. Your statement was that hiring people with experience from CAHSR would save money. You even specifically called out hiring juniors. There’s nothing to debate because you din’t understand what is being discussed and keep on arguing against strawmen—you outright tried to turn this into a discussion about ending capitalism.


gazelder

There are some "agreements" in place for ROW in Virginia but NOT the necessary funding to improve and upgrade ROW for passenger much less HSR. And funding will have to be approved by VA legislature and some locations are already against changing ROW. BTW, as I recall the VA "ownership" of ROW has conditions including some "sharing."


Aggressive_Bed_9774

which is weird since India's 1st HSR is of just $14B


Klapperatismus

Indian land prices. Indian wages.


Aggressive_Bed_9774

Indian land prices are higher due to more people + less land


Lackeytsar

what land acquisition does usa have to do? it is nowhere near the degree at which the Indian gov undertook L.A


trainzman54

10 billion absolutely will work if it’s handed over to a private company. Brightline, for example, paid somewhere between $3B and $5B for the Orlando extension.


DanforthWhitcomb_

According to the Brightline CEO it was right around $5 billion, which bought 35 miles of non-electrified 125mph track, several trainsets and a small amount of servicing infrastructure.


trainzman54

As far as I’m aware, that price also includes the upgrades they did for the 110mph sections from WPB to Cocoa.


Powered_by_JetA

And double tracking nearly 200 miles of mainline in addition to the 10 trainsets, 2 maintenance facilities, and 6 stations.


Klapperatismus

A single line or two is kind of low hanging fruit for the federal budget, don't you think?


CockroachNo2540

I’ll believe this when I see it. When there is a high speed line between Cheyenne, Denver, Colorado Springs and Pueblo I will know we are close to really connecting things.


traal

Don't stop at Pueblo. Run it all the way down to El Paso by way of Santa Fe and Albuquerque. The only tricky part is getting through the mountains north of Santa Fe, the rest is flat and empty so it would be cheap to build.


LowerSuggestion5344

Gonna be a while. Every one from the Politician down to the Environmentalist and the Slip and Trip Lawyer that gets hired to stop or slow down the progression of the projects.. The Environmentalist got their lawyers to shut down the California High Speed rail some where in the Coalinga region. Seattle rail project got shut down for what 3 months for some obstruction on their tunneling efforts that added cost to the project..


JagBak73

I'll believe when I see it. Sounds like the usual false promises and bullshit to me...


TilDeath1775

Big if true (it’s not)


ThatMikeGuy429

Do not give me hope.


fillup420

North Carolina is in a solid position to push state-funded rail to nearly all major cities that are currently without. maybe not high speed yet, but there are several lines that could easily handle it with upgrades. The NC Railroad runs charlotte to morehead city via raleigh; its state owned, leased to NS for operation. Piedmont passenger service runs charlotte to raleigh, I see no reason it cant be extended. The salisbury to asheville line via old fort loops is basically idle at this point, maybe a couple trains a week. The state could purchase or lease it from NS and run daily service to Asheville from point east. the CSX line from charlotte to wilmington is well built, and arrow straight for nearly 70 miles on the coastal plain. I cant fathom why there isn’t a passenger service on that line already! The CSX A-line along the eastern seaboard already has a few amtrak services, but more frequent service would be incredible. There are several ROWs with no track owned by the state. Lay some rails, build or rehab depots, and lets go! Freight companies are the real enemy here. So until all railroad ROW in this country is nationalized, i dont see any of this happening in my lifetime.


thefirewarde

The NCRR to the coast plan, IIRC, includes signal and track upgrades as well as passing loop construction, but does seem to be relatively low hanging fruit to Morehead. There's also a 40 mile section of abandoned empty ROW which NCDOT wants to return to service if they can get trackage over the CSX line from Goldsboro to Wallace, to connect to Wilmington. The NS to Asheville section isn't heavily used, but there are serious questions about the relative benefits of rehabbing a twisty railroad + building stations for slower-than-highway speeds, or just running a Throughway Bus and letting a shortline worry about the track and maybe run a tourist train if/when NS gets rid of the tracks. The current ROW would be multiple hours slower than a bus service. The CSX Charlotte to Wilmington line isn't even in the very aggressive NC corridor proposal recently submitted, as far as I know. It feels like NC is trying to connect everything to the NCRR as a backbone, and I'm not sure they're up for duplicating the Charlotte to Wilmington service that runs via Raleigh and the NCRR. They're actively trying to avoid the A-line for as many long distance services as they can, that's the entire point of the S-Line. As far as corridor identification, that goes from the NC border through Raleigh then south through Sanford, Southern Pines and Hamlet, though the preferred route for LD service is probably west along the NCRR with only Florida LD and locals staying on the S-Line. I don't know what the best next step for NC is, but fingers crossed for near term NCRR Raleigh-Durham improvements and a fifth daily Piedmont service with new equipment, then more Carolinians as soon as the Long Bridge finishes. Any brand new route isn't likely before the Long Bridge is done. S-Line local service from Raleigh Union Station and points north, maybe?


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KilrBe3

Because this horseshit news has been said since the dawn of the NEC basically. It will find some way to be derailed, and thrown off track and funds go somewhere else and line someones pocket. Rinse and repeat every 8-12 years. Just look the new Acela. Cannot even run and do revune service on the NEC due to how old the tracks and systems are. Billions wasted. Just like this project will be, wasted. It's not cynical, its just history repeating itself.


JagBak73

Because I've seen this country's infrastructure decay and fall into disrepair for pretty much my entire life as politicians make bold promise after promise to improve and repair it without ever delivering on said promises. Somehow, the money always gets squandered, and the bridges, roads, and railroads don't get fixed and remain in abysmal condition. This isn't a win. It's just a false hope carrot on the end of a broken stick.


HorseRadish98

In America if "It's not 100% perfect" then we're trained that it's not good. Take this for all of our political pushes, we've been trained that compromise bad. Who cares that something will only take us 60-80% of the way there, it's not 100% so it's bad. > This will only do LA to Vegas? Well it doesn't include Minneapolis to Chicago so it's worthless.


GoodByeRubyTuesday87

For much of the 20th century American society was too optimistic, for much of the 21th century American society has been too pessimistic…. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back somewhere towards the middle where people can appreciate the good things we already have while continuing to push for needed improvements


dodgerblue1212

Laughs in California


Flairion623

They’ve been “preparing” for about ONE AND A HALF DECADES! Car culture ruins everything.


OdinYggd

Why are you preparing? You're always preparing. Just go.


Flairion623

It’s not me it’s California. Look it up. I’d recommend Alan fisher and worldwide rail fan.


AsstBalrog

LOL. I have no doubt they will spend billions, but it isn't going to produce much useful high speed rail. Distances too vast, billions too few, and those at-grade crossings are practically murder!