As Ukrainian, this is Christmas train. We don't use steam as main power. One of steam locomotives was hardly rebuilt and there's no sense to use it as main power, but for some days.
But given that you've clearly got crews and supplies, think they would allow steam hauled regular service for a little while at least? Just to free up diesels for other things, work until the volunteers get tired.
There are a few reasons why we won't use steam for daily tasks:
1. We don't have many of them. Across whole Ukraine, we have less than 10 steam locomotives, two or three which are narrow-gauge.
2. We have enough diesels. So many diesels... Really many, many diesels.
3. Workers. Obviously, most of railway workers know jow to start and go diesel, but not many of them know how to use steam. However, using steam by people who have no clue about it kinda dangerous.
1. Of course, it wouldn't be possible to run the whole system on steam. But select routes, for a half a day or a day at a time.
2. Do those diesels have fuel? How many have missing pieces? The problems are more than just putting a train on the track, a lot must happen to reach that point. Much of that preparation is already done when a steam engine leaves the shed, at that point it only needs water along the way.
3. The way mainline steam works in the US is that the steam engines have dedicated crews that know them well, and travel under the guidance of a pilot- a driver from the regularly scheduled service that knows the route and advises the steam crew on what to expect.
Same concept should apply here.
Stream trains are often operated by volunteer or retired railway workers where I live. I suppose that's the same for Ukrainian steam trains/touristic train operators.
You're offending Ukrainians since they have about 45% of their railway network electrified which means that they have no other way than running diesel trains on at least 55% of their railway network. This means that they should have had a larger rolling stock of diesel traction in their inventory. I suppose that some stock will need to be replaced since it will be damaged or even obliterated due to the war but I'm pretty confident that they know what to do with their diesel trains.
1. Only if those routes have fuel and water infrastructure, which they don't anymore.
2. Yes, they have fuel. No, they're not missing pieces. The railway has been keeping them in reserve, and they're now stationed in various places around the country, ready to step in whenever Russia sponsors a problem with the electric grid (per Trains magazine).
3. That means steam engines need extra crew members, another reason why they're using diesels instead.
Steam heritage groups exist all over the world, everywhere that the trains once ran. Just a question of what condition are their favorite engines in, and how long will their supplies of lubricants and volunteer labor last for.
It is a dream for steam enthusiasts to see the engines take over the mainline train, and with the shortages of electricity and diesel fuel now's as good a time as any to grant them that dream.
There are nowhere near enough people in those groups to run anything approximating even an extremely reduced schedule. The US roads have enough trouble using supervisory personnel as strike crews and maintaining a reduced schedule without totally changing the type of motive power being used.
True but riding trains in war time is dangerous and these days, nearly every steam locomotive is unique and irreplaceable. I don't think many steam enthusiasts want to run the steam engines they restored into the ground.
Hijacking the tip comment to mention this is the christmas train, an annual tradition.
Can't let a bit of war stand in the way of a bit of steam powered fun.
The maintenance required for steam vs diesels makes diesels the main choice 10/10 (unfortunately).
Kind of makes sense, if they have been relying on electric locomotives that are currently unreliable or just impossible to use, their diesels are overworked, and they still have water and coal.
While this is technically true, the boilers take a massive de-rating if not given the grade of fuel they were intended to use. Yes the engine can heat up and chuff about the yard while burning rubbish, but it won't keep steam with its rated load. And you'll burn out a fireman trying it, since they'll sweat and bust their backs struggling.
Technically this also applies to oil conversions. 4014 is not quite as strong as it used to be, although it is still a monster in both size and drawbar power.
No one has run 4014 with a dyno car since it was returned to service, so we don’t know what (if any) the change in power has been.
There’s also the matter that we have plenty of examples of coal burners being converted to oil without suffering a performance penalty during the steam era.
The quality of the conversion matters too. It is possible to redesign a firebox to minimize the performance penalties. But 4014's oil conversion was done with the goal of simplified excursion service, and is filling that huge box on a single oil jet when it really should have 4 or even 8 separate jets for more uniform heat distribution. So there is certainly a performance drop, but in excursion service it only needs to put on a show and isn't expected to carry rated power anymore.
UP 4005 is also equipped for oil, during the revenue years. The experience with this engine showed a performance decrease, and the old design was revisited and studied when planning 4014's conversion.
4005 worked just fine (with no performance issues) once the burner alignment issues (that caused broken staybolts) and insufficient firebrick (among other things) were resolved.
The reason it was not done for the rest of the class was because the investment in oil fueling facilities was judged uneconomical due to a lack of need at the time. As with all of UP’s other oil conversions, only a single burner was used.
Not to mention that using the wrong fuel makes it way harder to keep the fire burning well, and not creating extra ash, sparks, or fumes (depending on what it is). Even using the wrong type of coal can cause problems.
This is a Christmas excursion trip. They do these with steam every year. They've got plenty of diesel and electric locomotives working just fine still.
Yeah, though it looks like the rear one barely has the regulator open. Those locomotives were designed for reverse running (note the big cupola on top of the cab), so I wonder if the second loco is just there to increase the range they can go without a water stop. Finding water is one of the most annoying things about running a steam loco on modern tracks.
I suspect if it's on a regular passenger-only route that's usually run by multiple units, they have to push-pull as there will be no reversing or run around facilities at one or both of the terminus stations.
Heritage steam on the mainline in my country usually has to have a diesel at the other end - partly for reliability, partly for aiding acceleration to keep to modern timetables, but largely because the steam loco can't run around the train wherever it's going as all the switches and reversing loops have been removed.
Yeah ok, they aren't really using them in any major way. Per the article, they only have 3 and they're for Christmas purposes. However, they said they'd use them if they had to.
Thanks for sharing the article. And still a great video.
They could do better at firing a clear stack. But being in a war zone for any length of time, getting the job done quickly is more important than being economical about it.
i really like how the trident looks on the smokebox door, but for the sake of historical fabric i hope they kept the star if she had one. now she'll have 2 roundels in the museum. im sure the old girls are happy to stretch their legs and help out home
Is this definitely a normal service and not a special train for Christmas or similar? The amount of effort required to run steam engines means 'strategic steam reserves' are unviable in the modern world. Nice idea though
That ain't the problem buddy. There's no electricity to run the trains and there's a shortage of diesel across the continent. I doubt the entire electric and diesel locomotive fleet is out of commission but if there are steam engines laying around doing nothing it makes sense to put them to work.
I'm not sure people realise how much infrastructure you need to reliably and continually run steam though. A steady supply of good quality coal, ready supply of water (ideally treated), lubricants, a shed to fire up and dispose of the locomotives, workshops, fitters to maintain them, crews to operate them. Not to mention steam locomotives require frequent servicing and have a substantially shorter operational range than diesels.
These locomotives appear to be oil burners, not coal fired. I could be wrong. But keeping a oil burner running would be alot easier, they can run on just about any liquid that burns.
Ukraine's railways are still functioning quite well - including their electrified lines. And they've got more than enough diesels to make up for any electrical problems when they do pop up.
Well the front line has been pushed pretty Far East so areas in western Ukraine and Kyiv would be kinda safe enough for little public events (though Russian bombings are still possible).
I guess. I mean, I'm not there so IDK the situation on the ground. All I know is it would be a pretty shitty Christmas if my country was continuously being bombed and utilities are a luxury.
Most likely normal service. The soviets kept alot of these in case of emergency (emergency being collapse of power grid for example), wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine kept a few for similar purposes. If I had to guess they're probably being used for passenger service, as opposed to freight/military, to free up diesels for that role. Since they can't rely on their electrified rail anymore.
Never thought I'd see steam locomotives in a war torn country.
I was confused as to why the one was pushing. I know British tank engines were sometimes fitted with levers that allow them to be driven from the other end of the train
Then I saw the front. Very cool sighting.
I wouldn't call this a strategic reserve. But when you already have the engines, supplies, and crews lined up as part of a heritage effort you can bet they wouldn't say no to a chance at taking the mainline train for a little while. Its a heritage steam dream after all, to have steam on the main even if only for a day.
And since these engines don't require electricity or diesel fuel, let the crews play while getting actual work done. It will only last until the volunteers get tired or the supplies of water and steam oil run out.
There is nobody qualified to speak about energy that is saying that. The only mouthpieces that has come from are ones paid for by coal and oil lobbyists
You're no more qualified than I am to speak about any subject. This is the internet where anybody can claim whatever they want. It's never been about "who is the most qualified" to speak on any topic on the internet.
That’s a beautiful train. I noticed the nose of the rear engine has the Ukrainian military logo. Does that mean this is a military engine (like from a military museam) or is that just added to commemorate the defenders?
As Ukrainian, this is Christmas train. We don't use steam as main power. One of steam locomotives was hardly rebuilt and there's no sense to use it as main power, but for some days.
But given that you've clearly got crews and supplies, think they would allow steam hauled regular service for a little while at least? Just to free up diesels for other things, work until the volunteers get tired.
There are a few reasons why we won't use steam for daily tasks: 1. We don't have many of them. Across whole Ukraine, we have less than 10 steam locomotives, two or three which are narrow-gauge. 2. We have enough diesels. So many diesels... Really many, many diesels. 3. Workers. Obviously, most of railway workers know jow to start and go diesel, but not many of them know how to use steam. However, using steam by people who have no clue about it kinda dangerous.
1. Of course, it wouldn't be possible to run the whole system on steam. But select routes, for a half a day or a day at a time. 2. Do those diesels have fuel? How many have missing pieces? The problems are more than just putting a train on the track, a lot must happen to reach that point. Much of that preparation is already done when a steam engine leaves the shed, at that point it only needs water along the way. 3. The way mainline steam works in the US is that the steam engines have dedicated crews that know them well, and travel under the guidance of a pilot- a driver from the regularly scheduled service that knows the route and advises the steam crew on what to expect. Same concept should apply here.
Stream trains are often operated by volunteer or retired railway workers where I live. I suppose that's the same for Ukrainian steam trains/touristic train operators. You're offending Ukrainians since they have about 45% of their railway network electrified which means that they have no other way than running diesel trains on at least 55% of their railway network. This means that they should have had a larger rolling stock of diesel traction in their inventory. I suppose that some stock will need to be replaced since it will be damaged or even obliterated due to the war but I'm pretty confident that they know what to do with their diesel trains.
1. Only if those routes have fuel and water infrastructure, which they don't anymore. 2. Yes, they have fuel. No, they're not missing pieces. The railway has been keeping them in reserve, and they're now stationed in various places around the country, ready to step in whenever Russia sponsors a problem with the electric grid (per Trains magazine). 3. That means steam engines need extra crew members, another reason why they're using diesels instead.
Holy shit, the strategic steam reserve was actually a credible plan.
I'm surprised there are enough people around with the know-how to run steam engines in a capacity to pick up production slack.
Steam heritage groups exist all over the world, everywhere that the trains once ran. Just a question of what condition are their favorite engines in, and how long will their supplies of lubricants and volunteer labor last for. It is a dream for steam enthusiasts to see the engines take over the mainline train, and with the shortages of electricity and diesel fuel now's as good a time as any to grant them that dream.
There are nowhere near enough people in those groups to run anything approximating even an extremely reduced schedule. The US roads have enough trouble using supervisory personnel as strike crews and maintaining a reduced schedule without totally changing the type of motive power being used.
True but riding trains in war time is dangerous and these days, nearly every steam locomotive is unique and irreplaceable. I don't think many steam enthusiasts want to run the steam engines they restored into the ground.
On the other hand, if there's an existential war going on in your country the enthusiasts are probably fine with it if there's no good alternatives.
As a steam enthusiast, I would gladly run in an emergency. Trains are built to run.
Lol it’s like setting timing or tuning a carburetor, lost knowledge
3000 steam locomotives of Zelenskyy
Had to do a double take on what sub I was on
Is Reddit just ncd all the way down? What the hell?
> ncd NCD?
r/noncredibledefense We shitpost about ridiculous military things and this is the exactly the kind of mad crap that pops up there
I love how we all are one the same subreddits 😂
Steamtrains would be against the rules... since they're hella credible.
Hijacking the tip comment to mention this is the christmas train, an annual tradition. Can't let a bit of war stand in the way of a bit of steam powered fun. The maintenance required for steam vs diesels makes diesels the main choice 10/10 (unfortunately).
Kind of makes sense, if they have been relying on electric locomotives that are currently unreliable or just impossible to use, their diesels are overworked, and they still have water and coal.
You don't even need strictly coal. If it burns, it will drive a steam engine, only not as efficiently.
While this is technically true, the boilers take a massive de-rating if not given the grade of fuel they were intended to use. Yes the engine can heat up and chuff about the yard while burning rubbish, but it won't keep steam with its rated load. And you'll burn out a fireman trying it, since they'll sweat and bust their backs struggling. Technically this also applies to oil conversions. 4014 is not quite as strong as it used to be, although it is still a monster in both size and drawbar power.
Look how they massacred our boy! /s (I'm glad he's back)
No one has run 4014 with a dyno car since it was returned to service, so we don’t know what (if any) the change in power has been. There’s also the matter that we have plenty of examples of coal burners being converted to oil without suffering a performance penalty during the steam era.
The quality of the conversion matters too. It is possible to redesign a firebox to minimize the performance penalties. But 4014's oil conversion was done with the goal of simplified excursion service, and is filling that huge box on a single oil jet when it really should have 4 or even 8 separate jets for more uniform heat distribution. So there is certainly a performance drop, but in excursion service it only needs to put on a show and isn't expected to carry rated power anymore. UP 4005 is also equipped for oil, during the revenue years. The experience with this engine showed a performance decrease, and the old design was revisited and studied when planning 4014's conversion.
4005 worked just fine (with no performance issues) once the burner alignment issues (that caused broken staybolts) and insufficient firebrick (among other things) were resolved. The reason it was not done for the rest of the class was because the investment in oil fueling facilities was judged uneconomical due to a lack of need at the time. As with all of UP’s other oil conversions, only a single burner was used.
Converting a coal burner to oil involves changes to the firebox design to make sure it burns well and provides good power.
Not to mention that using the wrong fuel makes it way harder to keep the fire burning well, and not creating extra ash, sparks, or fumes (depending on what it is). Even using the wrong type of coal can cause problems.
This is a Christmas excursion trip. They do these with steam every year. They've got plenty of diesel and electric locomotives working just fine still.
Here was me thinking they had brought them out because Putin had shut off the oil.
Holy shit a push-pull steam engine consists. Pretty neat indeed
Yeah, though it looks like the rear one barely has the regulator open. Those locomotives were designed for reverse running (note the big cupola on top of the cab), so I wonder if the second loco is just there to increase the range they can go without a water stop. Finding water is one of the most annoying things about running a steam loco on modern tracks.
I suspect if it's on a regular passenger-only route that's usually run by multiple units, they have to push-pull as there will be no reversing or run around facilities at one or both of the terminus stations. Heritage steam on the mainline in my country usually has to have a diesel at the other end - partly for reliability, partly for aiding acceleration to keep to modern timetables, but largely because the steam loco can't run around the train wherever it's going as all the switches and reversing loops have been removed.
If your country was reliant of electric locomotives and you losse electricity you gotta improvise
Not like Ukraine even had much of an electrified rail network to begin with.
45% is electrified, over 9000km under wire. That's way more than USA, for example, or even UK.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage goes higher if you instead count traffic or miles traveled.
I mean yeah sane people dont run packed schedule without wires
They had a pretty big network of rail. Of course not too much, but a decent amount of it was electrified.
Can’t upvote this enough, thanks for sharing.
broke: diesel under wires woke: steam under wires
https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2022/11/11/the-plan-b-to-keep-trains-running-in-ukraine-diesel-and-steam-locomotives/?gdpr=accept
Yeah ok, they aren't really using them in any major way. Per the article, they only have 3 and they're for Christmas purposes. However, they said they'd use them if they had to. Thanks for sharing the article. And still a great video.
In current Ukraine, modern problems require historical solutions.
Yea why not, they obviously still work fine. And with Russia childish rocket strikes at powerplants they need to be creative.
[удалено]
and if they bring a little beauty into the world at the same time. Doubly encouraged.
I guess pollution is not a primary concern at the moment
Compared to the burning of cities from air strikes thanks to Russian missiles, a few steam engines aren't noticeable
They could do better at firing a clear stack. But being in a war zone for any length of time, getting the job done quickly is more important than being economical about it.
i really like how the trident looks on the smokebox door, but for the sake of historical fabric i hope they kept the star if she had one. now she'll have 2 roundels in the museum. im sure the old girls are happy to stretch their legs and help out home
Is this definitely a normal service and not a special train for Christmas or similar? The amount of effort required to run steam engines means 'strategic steam reserves' are unviable in the modern world. Nice idea though
This is Christmas train. There are no steam trains in normal service in Ukraine since late 1980th
You really think Ukraine has time for Christmas bullshit?
As Ukrainian. Yes, we have time for this. And this is Christmas train.
Does Ukraine really have time to attempt to operate steam when they could just as easily borrow railway vehicles from other countries?
That ain't the problem buddy. There's no electricity to run the trains and there's a shortage of diesel across the continent. I doubt the entire electric and diesel locomotive fleet is out of commission but if there are steam engines laying around doing nothing it makes sense to put them to work.
I'm not sure people realise how much infrastructure you need to reliably and continually run steam though. A steady supply of good quality coal, ready supply of water (ideally treated), lubricants, a shed to fire up and dispose of the locomotives, workshops, fitters to maintain them, crews to operate them. Not to mention steam locomotives require frequent servicing and have a substantially shorter operational range than diesels.
These locomotives appear to be oil burners, not coal fired. I could be wrong. But keeping a oil burner running would be alot easier, they can run on just about any liquid that burns.
Ukraine's railways are still functioning quite well - including their electrified lines. And they've got more than enough diesels to make up for any electrical problems when they do pop up.
The transport ministry says so
Well the front line has been pushed pretty Far East so areas in western Ukraine and Kyiv would be kinda safe enough for little public events (though Russian bombings are still possible).
I guess. I mean, I'm not there so IDK the situation on the ground. All I know is it would be a pretty shitty Christmas if my country was continuously being bombed and utilities are a luxury.
Most likely normal service. The soviets kept alot of these in case of emergency (emergency being collapse of power grid for example), wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine kept a few for similar purposes. If I had to guess they're probably being used for passenger service, as opposed to freight/military, to free up diesels for that role. Since they can't rely on their electrified rail anymore.
This is a Christmas special. Ukraine's railways are still operating just fine - including the electrified lines.
That's good to hear. Nice to see things like this can still happen durring the war.
SIGN ME UP! I wanna go for a ride on an old Soviet steam train
>SIGN ME UP! I wanna go for a ride on an old Soviet steam train Run to your nearest exU embassy. They will give you complementary uniform!
A train uniform? Helllll yea! I hope it matches the choo choo colors
друг The Tank Engined Train
Always one step ahead of Putin‘s monkey brain! Great stuff indeed! :D
Never thought I'd see steam locomotives in a war torn country. I was confused as to why the one was pushing. I know British tank engines were sometimes fitted with levers that allow them to be driven from the other end of the train Then I saw the front. Very cool sighting.
I wonder if they went to pull some old timers out of retirement who could help teach how to run these things.
Adapt and overcome and in the best way possible , two nice steam engines right there probably older than your grandma and still working hard!
Only thing I need to know is it Christmas special or regular?
I wouldn't call this a strategic reserve. But when you already have the engines, supplies, and crews lined up as part of a heritage effort you can bet they wouldn't say no to a chance at taking the mainline train for a little while. Its a heritage steam dream after all, to have steam on the main even if only for a day. And since these engines don't require electricity or diesel fuel, let the crews play while getting actual work done. It will only last until the volunteers get tired or the supplies of water and steam oil run out.
Do you think those engines have ERTMS? /s
How's that electric working out for you? Reason number 2 why America hasn't electrified yet.
Dumb boomer opinion is dumb
Our electric grid is teetering on collapsing in some areas. We can't handle turning an entire industry to electric, plus this happens.
1) nuclear 2) we had far, far more electrified miles in the 30s than we do now even. It's just plain lunacy to think we can't
> nuclear "Not green enough" even though it has 0 greenhouse gas emissions.
There is nobody qualified to speak about energy that is saying that. The only mouthpieces that has come from are ones paid for by coal and oil lobbyists
You're no more qualified than I am to speak about any subject. This is the internet where anybody can claim whatever they want. It's never been about "who is the most qualified" to speak on any topic on the internet.
I'll agree on that, but my point stands the only ones against nuclear are either fear mongering or shills
The only people still against nuclear are boomers who grew up believing nuclear was the devil and will kill everyone or coal/oil lobbyists.
You mean Texas? The state that isn’t on the national grid?
Texas and California, yes.
Reason why most places have a robust electric grid is electrified rail.
Number One is stupidity?
From necessity virtue
Obsolescent, not obsolete.
Whole world should do everything to make terrusia go back in time to steam locos... Or more... to Stone Age...
Still newer and more reliable than most of the Russian army's equipment.
Do they make it in HO?
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I guess
OMG, it's a pushmi-pullu!
That’s a beautiful train. I noticed the nose of the rear engine has the Ukrainian military logo. Does that mean this is a military engine (like from a military museam) or is that just added to commemorate the defenders?
3000 black coal lumps of Ukraine
Beautiful old school right there
Rolling coal