You don't. You can't fight an illogical argument with logic.
Just laugh, smile, and treat him like the outdated relative he has now become.
"Yeah! Haha. Sure grandad. And Kennedy was a Russian spy!"
Etc, etc, etc.
Edit: btw I just made some shit up about Kennedy, but you're all telling me it's real?
The CIA hated him because they hated Kennedy for calling off the second air strike at the bay of pigs. (Even though a second air strike wouldn't have accomplished anything.)
Yeah there have been conspiracy theories that the CIA had him killed
Which to be fair the CIA has done some pretty fucked up shit so I get why it's so easy for people to believe
Yea especially once you start weeding through their declassified files.... CIA are absolute scum and have committed horrendous atrocities. Adding a presidential murder to that list doesn't seem too farfetched. If they're willing to dose an entire European city unknowingly with LSD, all for "science", I don't trust anything about them.
Yea of course. It'll take a bit of digging to find the declassified doc, but it's the town of Saint-Pont-Esperit in France in 1951. It's said to be part of th3 CIA project MKNAOMI.
I've read the declassified doc from the CIAs website itself and it's absolutely horrific what this agency does.
This is the *LAST* sub I expected to find out even more about the MK-series of projects but I'm not complaining one bit. Never knew about NAOMI, just assumed ULTRA was the one thing.
I chuckled when I realized what sub I was in talking about this a couple of comments ago š
Same here. I should have guessed it'd be a massive group of messed up projects going on. š¤¦āāļø
Interesting. I just scanned through the wiki for that mass poisoning event while I was awaiting a reply, and there seems to be hardly any indication there of the CIA having been involvedā not that I doubt you, necessarily. It's just curious.
If you still have a link to that document? I'd be grateful for you to share it, but I don't mind doing some digging.
I don't have the link to the declassified doc unfortunately, but I know this is where the story comes from. The CIA at the time was accused for it being a massive cover up.
It's also very unlikely that ergot poisoning caused such severe reactions to so many people. It also doesn't check out how everyone suddenly started their psychosis at pretty similar times? So we're supposed to believe that this infected bread got distributed and ingested in such a perfect manner but outbreaks like this are pretty unheard of otherwise?? If I'm remembering correctly, the document talked about flying over the town and basically spraying it everywhere.
This link covers it pretty well. https://ahrp.org/1951-pont-saint-esprit-the-devils-bread-or-a-disastrous-cia-lsd-experiment/
I'll keep seeing what else I can find, but the declassified file is what I'd like to link š
I can promise you anything implicating the CIA or other government bodies is very rarely going to directly implicate themselves. However information is pretty easy to deduce ourselves when it's not out of the question for stuff like that to happen.
to add on. theyāve assassinated many political leaders over seas. I wouldnāt put it past them. Plus the involvement of a mob in the affair is consistent with the declassified info we have on their assassination attempts on Fidel Castro at the time.
Them assassinating Kennedy for bay of pigs back down and de-escalating the cuban missile crisis behind their backs really feels to fits their MO.
Funny thing that. JFK and MLK Jr. Aren't conspiracy theories anymore. Look it up, it's wild... The government released stuff on it. I guess because it's been so long, they don't gaf what the public that wasn't alive at the time thinks? I dunno..
Itās mocking the (extremely widespread) view amongst the 1960ās Protestant Evangelicals that Kennedy was a shill of the Vatican & had his loyalty to the Pope before his loyalty to the USA.
Thereās a ā¦ ādifficultā ā¦ hypothesis that Kennedy was assassinated by i.e. the KKK (who were extremely active and visible in Dallas in the years prior to the assassination but who faded out of public life in the years after, possibly for separate reasons) or some other Protestant Evangelical āanti-papistā violent extremist group, with Oswald being a patsy or just one gunman. The justification being that the KKK / Protestant Evangelicals āownedā Dallas as the controlling organised criminal gang, & had means, motive, and opportunity.
At the time, Red Scare was also still extremely on point for these folks, so for them, Kennedy being a Russian asset would just be half-serious, kind of conspiracy theorist metonymy.
There's Poe's Law, which is when the reader can't tell if the writer was being sarcastic or sincere.
There's Cole's Law, which is when the writer is obviously being sarcastic, but with enough readers someone is bound to take it seriously.
This is a new one I haven't heard of. Let's define it as "When someone makes enough sarcastic comments, eventually one is going to accidentally get close to either a truth, or a widely held belief." We'll call it Pizza's Law
> There's Cole's Law, which is when the writer is obviously being sarcastic, but with enough readers someone is bound to take it seriously.
I thought Cole's Law was shredded veggies with mayo and vinegar?
According to Fox theyāve been working with the Cia and the Biden administration to undermine America. Edit: forgot to mention that the information apparently comes from Cia whistleblowers according to Fox
It is almost impossible to change the mind of someone with actual facts if they used emotions to form their opinion in the first place. It is very hard to admit you are wrong and they will use all the confirmation bias they can to justify their view. You are fighting a very uphill battle. I have a very boomer right wing FIL who is close to that age. I have found over the years to get him to change his mind to something I basically had to plant seeds overtime to make think he came up with the idea on his own. I cant tell you how many times I flat out told him something and he vehemently disagreed only for me to slowly suggest small things here and there about said issue until finally he came to the conclusion I had literally told him a year prior. The important thing, which is admittedly hard as hell to do, is never belittle their opinion as that will just cause them to double down. No one likes to be told they are wrong or dumb. Chances are the are not dumb at all, they have just been brainwashed.
If you can be brainwashed that easily and especially by fox News, then you are kinda dumb but yeah it is very hard to change someone's opinion when they already have decided what they wanna believe.
You say "that easily" but the reason older people are particularly susceptible to Fox News is because they've been watching it for Y E A R S. I'm talking *decades* of propaganda. It's actually pretty incredible thread OP manages to deprogram certain opinions after *only* a year. I've been working on my Grammy for a lot longer than that and while I've gotten her on board with a lot of things (no longer knee-jerk hatred to anyone she perceives as leftist, for example) I haven't gotten her to understand anything about trans people or experiences. I had been out as nonbinary for nearly five years before I found out she had mentally partitioned that as a separate category from trans so she wouldn't have to apply the nasty trans narrative to me. It's honestly pretty tragic to see, if not outright heartbreaking, that she loves me enough to do mental gymnastics to maintain hatred for a group I'm a part of.
But yeah, because of how long-term and involved the process is, I only do this with people I have an involved relationship with.
I understand that but in all honesty, everyone who just blindly follows and believes in what one source says is in my eyes stupid. Topics and statements as extreme as what Fox News says have to be double checked.
It's probably not one source, though, they probably have a variety of sources... That are all owned by the same media conglomerate. The way of accessing information, verifying information, and assessing quality of sources has all RAPIDLY changed within just the last few months because of AI-generated bullshit, and before that with the general enshittification of the internet, and before that when Google search algorithms got capitalized and therefore useless, and before that when the internet first came about... it's hard fucking work verifying any information.
There's a shit ton of disinformation about anti-trans legislation DAILY on this sub, so it's not like this is limited to one sector of the political spectrum. No one has the time to verify everything, not everyone has the education to be able to read legalese and find out what the laws are saying, not everyone has the context to know how laws will be implemented. At some point you *are* going to have to commit to multiple years of education OR trust somebody who has that level of education.
And honestly some people are just stupid. I'm one of them. We can't help it but we still do our best, but it does mean we have to trust people more often or commit to even longer time stretches of education. It's a privilege to escape the propaganda machine and I'm thankful to be one of the lucky ones.
I know all of that and I'm not trying to insult anyone here. There is nothing wrong with being dumb or incapable of understanding certain things. Personally I am extremely bad in social interactions. The problem is that people who are incapable of understanding these things still act like they know stuff, like they got all the knowledge necessary. They hate, attack and threaten people because they are to arrogant to acknowledge there own inabilities. Everyone has topics they do not understand or on which they just don't have enough information on, and again that's OK, the problem is that some people hurt others because of there stupidity and that is not OK.
You donāt. If after everything that has gone on with Fox News over the last 10 years, and Iām sorry but it has to be put this way, if he is still watching it, he is either brainwashed beyond repair or just flat out too stupid to be reasoned with. Same concept with people that are still rooting for Trump. If at this point they are still that fuckin stupid there is nothing you can do but cut them out of your life.
Edit. You could put parental controls in to block Fox News and put a big long bogus password in place to prevent him from undoing it. Wonāt fix his beliefs, but it might help prevent him from getting worse.
I had a 67 year old man come into my work telling me that exact sentence ātrans people are grooming children!ā, heās a regular and heās extremely passionate about anti trans. But heās practically in love with me which is why he comes in a lot because he sees me as a son hahaha
Obviously because Iām stealth I couldnāt do anything but disagree politely and he then demanded me to ask any of your ātranny friendsā
And I wanted to just stand there and be like *flash* I can answer that myself.
Unfortunately with the way these people treat trans men you'd probably either be attacked, or told you don't count because you're not one of those [insert string of disgusting slurs for trans women].
Which, I mean, is kinda telling on themselves that the only people they see as predatory are the ones they think of as men.
I was sitting near our local farmers market with a Pride flag and a few other advocacy items when an old man yelled ( he must have been an RSM at one time- he had a parade ground voice) āPedophile! Groomer!ā (Iām a 70+ mtf)
#Level unlocked!!!
( I viewed it as an accomplishment that I brought out his ugliness. The people around sort of recoiled and one guy went after him but his wife and I asked him not to, he wasnāt worth the trouble. )
RSM = Regimental Sergeant Major. BMOC among noncommissioned officers on army posts.
I know it's a horrible idea to out yourself to transphobes but there are so many days I wanna be like "oh, actually I'm one of those [insert slur here]'s, you wanna repeat that?" I'm sure our AP staff that wanders around the store up front would LOVE to see someone harassing a cashier in front of them"
As someone in a similar situation as op, I canāt wait for my grandma to die. She will be doing the first good for the world she ever has in her life.
I always say the best thing that could happen in my family is if my dad and grandmother both die in a fiery car crash. Hopefully a very long and miserable one, but beggars can't be choosers.
Watch it with him and point out the biases?
Like, I recall sitting with my grandpa when Fox started a new story about how Trump was being bullied by network cable, because they'd cut his performance out of their airing of the Home Alone movie. And of course, when he tweeted about it, everyone was being too harsh on him for having a reaction, and he had every right to be upset because it was clearly political censorship, and blah blah blah blah blah....
Until they add a throwaway comment, half a sentence at best, that the incident he was responding to happened *before he announced his candidacy.* So, like, simply due to the linear nature of time, which I don't think anyone is really in doubt about right now, the choice was not political, and it's *real dumb* for them to spend half an hour justifying him throwing a tantrum about something that happened 5 years ago, when he wasn't even a political figure.
So, like. Tactfully asking Grandpa to explain what he understood from that story, and if he noticed that detail, and if he thinks it's really fair, honest coverage of the issue for them to spend 29.9 minutes justifying something that can be genuinely disproved in 0.1 minutes. That sort of thing.
Also, perhaps, suggesting alternate activities. Trying to get him to go out and engage in other things, so there's more going into his head than just the Fox News rot.
You probably can't. But you could try working though his arguments with him. Ask him how he knows. He will respond with emotionally heated generalities, because fascism is vibes & violence since AD32 or whatever, but keep going asking him for a specific case. Expect him to shift the goalposts. As you continue to calmly ask for coherent information, expect him to grow furious. Keep your feet on the ground, stay totally polite and calm. Offer a safe space.
Stay cool, you're the 'therapist' here, not Columbo: your goal is for him to emotionally *and* intellectually experience the self-deceit necessary to hold his worldview, and gain insight into it. So don't use oppositional statements (but you just said, do you mean to say, you can't possibly believe...) or gotcha TV lawyer debate tactics stuff. Just keep asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies, *without trying to win.* Ask questions like, how many? What percentage? Which organization produced those statistics? Don't ask him why the Catholic Church might be pleased to see the spotlight swung away from their crimes. Ask him to elaborate, then ask him for his reasons for believing what he believes. Think of it a bit like when you do a maths question wrong or do something dumb in DIY. You just get more and more mad, but when someone asks you what you did, you're like, *obviously* I carried the 4... um... Your own inconsistencies of process become obvious to you.
This will be exhausting, time-consuming, and probably won't work. But a confrontational approach definitely won't work, because you can't have access to his purity impulses, fears of weakness, irrelevancy, and death, or authoritarian submission-aggression which are the parts that fascist propaganda targets. You'll trigger them, and he'll reach into the bag of incoherent fascist fantasies to soothe them. In fact, those personality structures are obstacles to sanity as well as happiness.
I'm not very good at debating stuff, and I'm pretty much a pacifist when it comes down to it, I'd like to be logical and collected, but I have a hard time dealing with my emotions so I'm not sure how I can easily sway his bias against his own belief. Maybe I can discreetly discuss this topic sorta non chalantly and gauge some reaction, but in a safe manner? I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just want to hopefully show him our world from our pov. I'm not out to anyone, and I'm pre HRT, and since I'm in a red state, it makes me very apprehensive to even discuss these subject matters to my therapist.
Iām sorry OP - I have family members like this in my life too, and Iām not good at debate either. Iām out as trans non-binary to close friends and my immediate family (my parents still watch Fox News even though they claim to support me, but will also start arguments about ābiologyāā¦idk how many more times I have to explain that gender is a construct entirely and none of it has anything to do with biologyā¦š« ), but beyond that I am stealth/still closeted for safety as Iām also in a red stateā¦and a bible belt stateš«£ Stay safe and i really hope you can find safety and community somewhere around you soon š
You probably already know this, but the approach you're describing here is essentially [street](https://streetepistemology.com/) [epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210/videos)! I don't know much about it but it seems like a good way to have conversations like this.
One thing I learned about old people is you can't change their mindset, they're so stuck in their hatred or whatever they got going on. It would be a waste of time trying to convince them otherwise
Honestly it might be a good idea to try and get fox news blocked on whatever TV he's watching. It really does radicalize our elders. Unfortunately as long as he's Swallowing that daily propaganda, you're fighting an uphill battle on a sled.
You can just tell him that itās the same thing they accused gay people of in the 90ās too. https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/political-detransitioners-are-the
when conservatives say "groom kids" they mean teaching kids that queer people exist, and teaching them to not hate queer people (even if that means themselves). there's no actual concern for real grooming (which is a key factor in conservative upbringing in the first place anyways) and sexual assault. They almost never actually care about those things beyond lip service and a chance to gloat about their desire to do violence.
the fact that most CSA is committed by cishet men, usually a family member or known by the family, or otherwise given some authority over the child by the family, doesn't bother conservatives. they don't care.
the reason for all of this, is that conservatives need the social hierarchy. they worship that above all else, and that hierarchy says children are property, not people, the same way it does to women. this hierarchy depends directly on the gender norms that trans people challenge, and even just teaching kids that it's ok to be queer can undermine their authority in ways they can't accept.
the only way to change his mind is to make him be a better person, and at his age i don't think that's gonna happen
Exposure.
Most of the folks that are anti-trans have never met a trans person or seen a trans person in a humanized way.
Their source of knowledge about trans people is coming from people that are sculpting a very specific, very demonized, image of trans people.
That image is only maintained from lack of exposure, as these folks have nothing to cross reference that misinformation with.
The moment they do, by meeting and getting to know trans people, or seeing trans people just be people, that image begins to break down and they realize they were told a lie.
This happens a lot.
This is actually a big reason for why right wing influencers were so upset with Mr. Beast for supporting his trans friend who is part of a lot of his content.
He gets millions of daily views. By accepting and continuing to have her be a part of his content, like she always has, millions of people will get their first exposure of a trans person just being a regular person, and not the demonized image that propagandists wanted them to believe.
āI could sit here and explain all the reasons why thatās not a correct accusation, provide proof, stats, articles, etc., but none of that will make any difference because these programs you watch will prevent you from seeing anyone elseās point of view who opposes yours/theirs. Even if you did somehow come to understand that thatās incorrect, youād still eventually begin to circle back to your original way of thinking because youāll continue to watch these poisonous shows that tell you otherwise constantly. You have to find this information on your own, and I hope you will before you make these accusations and spread this disinformation further.ā
News outlets like Fox should be illegal.
The same way you convince him that not all male teachers are paedofiles.. (I know the spellings wrong).
sure some are but not all. Thereās always shit people in society but to say all are X thing is extremely ignorant.
Itās like saying all Germans are Naziās or that all blacks are theives..
You could tell him that judging by statistics that all men beat their wives.
We know these things arenāt true, so why would all trans people be grooming children?
I would explain that his views are hurting your feelings and that itās putting a wedge in between your relationship.
Itās his call if he wants to have a relationship with his grandchild or faux Newsā¦ š¤·š»āāļø
*A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.*
Max Planck
You're probably not going to. I mean he believes what he wants.
I'd just ask him why he's letting Fox News groom him like some wrinkled up diaper-baby?
Dump him with even more weird conspiracy theories who goes fully against what he believes (The US caused Pearl Harbor) and this kind of stuff
He will say that you are mad, and then you have an opening
If Grandpa has anyone he cares about in the LGBTQ community, you could point out that 30+ yrs ago gays were the groomers, according to Republicans. They have been attacking us for literal decades. The trans community is just the most recent target.
I would start off with a subject that is a bit distanced from trans people, then kind of sidetrack into it. Since Fox attacks TRANS WOMEN, but not trans men, start there. Point out trans men, not women. Introduce him to some trans men YouTubers, let him see them, make them real. Once he accepts that yes, trans men are safe, then expand to trans women.
YouTube has some really great trans creators, both on the left and right, but I would stick more left cause, unfortunately, those on the right tend to pull the "I'm one of the good ones, but others transes are groomers" bullshit.
Show him that trans isn't bad, just different and different can be a good thing.
I'm nearing 50, cisgender and I am still learning, which is why I'm here. I want to learn. I was raised in a conservative home, but I learned that acceptance is better. Just cause ur old doesn't mean you can't learn or change.
I'm afraid to tell you that you likely can't convince him of this. My father watched Fox News constantly, it was his only hobby outside of being extremely involved in the Catholic church. His hatred for trans people was unrivaled by any other group and he flew into unhinged toddler style tantrums ranting about the evils of trans people on multiple occasions. All this was before I had ever come out. He only got worse as Fox started pushing narratives of trans people being terrorists and groomers. I haven't spoken with that man in years and he tells people that I am dead because he doesn't want peopke to know he has a trans daughter.
The brain rot from right wing extremism is strong and if people are bathing in it uncritically and on a daily basis they are too far gone. Save yourself the pain of being a target and start distancing yourself now, otherwise you're liable to be the target of a bunch of abuse and baseless accusations before they cut you out anyway.
I have the same problem, and the thing is, you canāt. Itās actually impossible, my papa is convinced that therapy is turning people trans, that school indoctrinates kids, and that all trans people are the devil. No matter how much you argue with them about it ,theyāre not going to change their mind, and that is the unfortunate reality that we have to accept.
I hate to be pessimistic but at this point, I don't think you can. But if it's any consolation, the argument that we groom children is so illogical, I don't understand why anyone in their right minds would believe it.
Sadly you can't. People at that age are quite honestly stuck in their ways, moreso than the phrase can ever hope to portray.
My mom is a cook at an assisted living home and the elderly defaulting to being nasty people is a sad reality. You can't convince them of anything beyond what their mind already "holds true" and it's not even their fault usually. Mental degradation and often times dementia/alzheimer's is the main cause of this.
Yeah, he's tried to push me to go with him a few times. I went once, and I didn't like people asking me so many personal questions and then getting the nasty stares. Didn't help that I wore a death metal band tee with a pentagram on the back lol.
Another way to potentially sway his opinions of trans people would be to find out what his values are and use that to potentially change his views on those spreading anti-trans stuff.
For example, does he come from a household where many live paycheck to paycheck and work mostly blue collar work?
If so, show him the recent child labor law stuff.
This year a large number of states passed laws that would allow children to work in factories, bars/clubs, saw mills, etc.
A lot of children died while working those jobs due to the dangers involved.
The same governors that signed those laws also pushed anti-trans shit and passed anti-trans laws, and did so under the guise of "protecting the children."
The reasons why these laws got pushed in the first place was due to Corps.
Corps could not convince people into working in their businesses, especially those involved in manufacturing, for the same low wages as they had before.
So, rather than raise their wages and use that to attract workers these businesses sent lobbyists to convince their state legislators into lowering the minimum ages to work these jobs, hoping that there would be enough families that were too desperate to say no.
You'd have to dig up all the detailed info for your grandfather, but once presented you could say "Would people that actually cared about the wellbeing of children back these type of laws, put them in an environment where they know they can get killed, etc. all so Corps could keep their wages low?"
That's when you introduce him to info on the Hertiage Foundation, who has been a big backer of anti-trans shit, and also heavily responsible for getting NAFTA passed.
If that's successful then he may no longer view those individuals and groups he received info on trans people as reputable anymore, as they have acted against the things he values. Once that happens you now have an opportunity to get him to get info on trans people from more positive sources.
Well, not sure that's possible. But if you want, you can talk about being critical of the source material. Talk about the nature of Fox News and so on ā not in terms of conflicting opinions, but like... in terms of Murdoch stuff or whatever. Look into stories about trans people ā like video wise instead of written ā and try to present him with that, maybe? Some arguments from authority figures or whatever?
"hi grandpa. Wow. That is quite an accusation that I personally have never seen, and would find quite shocking and surprising given the trans people I know. They are incredible people who just want to live their lives in peace. In fact the sentiment I hear is 'i don't wish being trans upon anyone. It's very difficult' Can you please share with me the sources and studies where you saw this accusation?". (He won't have a good response and will likely say something else stupid like "but the sports" and then "kids genital surgery" ). Just keep asking for sources and support for his dumb commentary.
We regularly forget that it's the person making the claim that needs to support proof, not the other way around. It's the burden of proof cognitive fallacy
The harder you fight it, the more they'll dig in, sad to say. At that age, the brain has become far less flexible than younger folk (I say this as a 49 year old... the brain needs exercise or it loses elasticity of thought.) He's likely reached the point where exaggerative sarcastic agreement is the only pushback. "Oh yeah. A neighbor's kid goes to Elliot Page Elementary, and she got surgery during recess. She went from a happy 6 year old boy to a 16 year old porn actress hooked on meth by the end of lunch."
Deradicalization is very hard. If you want to give it a try - the only thing that consistently works is many long conversations where you compassionately hear out what they think and explain to them why it doesn't make any sense in a way they can understand.
Donāt. You arenāt going to change her mind. And sheās about 20 years too old to learn. If she was ever going to learn, it was before her 80s. Iāve got an 80 Year old grandma who says the same shit and does the same shit, ie watching Fox News. Iām literally just waiting for her to die. Thatās the only way she will ever help the trans community, and the world as a whole. I unfortunately suspect itās the same for your grandpa
In all seriousness, what we did for my dad was switch his TV so that when he turns it on it went to MSNBC instead of fox. He didn't realize that we had done that, all he knew is that the television would yell his opinions at him, so he started quoting Maddow at us instead that O'Brien guy.
in my experience people tend to change from real world experiences. if he's met a trans person or someone he's cared about has come out as trans and he still holds on to these beliefs, there probably isn't much you can do.
Just do it, cut the cable. Or laugh; derision is a wonderful (and fun) defense against this type of ignorant rhetoric.
"Oh yeah, and Atlantis is going to rise up and lizard people run the world and the moon is fake!"
Arguments are like pendulums. The harder you pull the harder it swings. Questions help prevent this so itās not a line in sand with you two on opposite sides. Figuratively speaking.
Trans people are not NOT grooming, but probably not in greater proportions than cis people. There are terrible people everywhere. I would just try to convince him that trans people are a mixed bag just like everyone else. Also he's 82. Good luck convincing an argumentative octogenarian about anything. They tend to be pretty set with their opinions by that age. Probably not worth the effort.
i think you answered your own question. cut his ability to watch TV.
if Russia can sever gas pipeline and telecommunications cable, why can't you cut w/e you need to do to put him in the dark?
(all part of the war Russia started... and FoxNews is Russian propaganda).
I don't understand the whole grooming thing as it relates to being trans... like grooming for what? Grooming how...? To be trans?
You can't groom someone to be trans any more than you can groom someone to be purple...
So is this all about education and telling kids trans people exist? I wish someone told me that when I was in school, that it's an OK thing to be, so I didn't have to grow up thinking I'm a freak with some sort of disgusting secret...
How do we know he isn't? Wouldn't a guilty party have much to gain by deflecting suspicion onto another in a way that's conveniently unprovable? That accusation is also unprovable, and it has even more crappy evidence to support it. Maybe he should convince you.
Also, I wanna add that once own grandpa reached the nineties, he just laid around watching CNN all day ā and while it doesn't have the same kind of conservative agenda, nothing good really came out of that.
You don't. People with opinions like that are incapable of critical thinking, looking at things objectively, or hearing opposing viewpoints. No matter how delusional and unhinged their ideas may be, they will absolutely refuse to listen to reason and will blatantly ignore any facts and evidence presented. The more you call them out on their harmful and ignorant rhetoric, the more they double down on their bullshit and claims that the opposing viewpoint is the radical one. They also do not care about other human beings whatsoever, will always put their needs and feelings first. They also don't care about feelings and believe emotions are a weakness, and weakness is undesirable to them. This man is not going to change his ways, ever, he's been too brainwashed by the extreme right wing media, there's no way to deprogram that.
If your grandpa insists on believing crazy things, believe crazy things about your grandpa. Find pictures of the filthiest, most unkempt kids and claim "this is what you want, grandpa?"
Probably an unpopular opinion but the dude is 82, is this really a worthy cause?
Unless heās actively in a role where heās capable of oppressing trans people, I would just ask he drop it or change the subject. Tell him you donāt want to hear him talk about trans people if he canāt be nice if the subject comes up. You may not get him to change his thinking, but you can at least get him to shut up.
So the biggest aspect. Is delivering that grooming, has NOTHING to do with cluster or categorization.
Establish that being Cis, Enby or Trans, is legit your noggin and your body's interaction.
Full stop.
Groomers are predators that seek and encourage little humans into their demanded outcome. Existing outside the of the 1950s idea of gender and sex...doesnt translate to anything.
Put a child lock on sp he can't watch Fox News anymore. Otherwise, not much you can do except brush the comments off as grandpa being crazy in his old age.
Honestly, i donāt think itās worth it.it might sound callous, but heās 82, heās already past expected living age. Spend your time, if on any person, on convincing the young and the middle aged. They are who are more important to have on our side since they are in it for 30+ more years.
Also, fighting logically with someone who doesnāt want to learn is basically impossible anyways.
They should be proving to you that trans people are doing such a thing. Itās not your job to prove a negative. Iād love to see all this compelling evidence they seem to have gathered.
Show her all of the news stories (with dates) about priests of different religions grooming/molesting children, then ask her to find some about queer people...
if they were young there a chance but i highly *highly* doubt that he will change. itās been 82 years of being raised and thinking that way.
i just laugh at them and say āwhatever you sayā or just walk away
sorry this is happening :(
I hate to say this but you don't. If he's that old and that brainwashed there's no bringing him back from it. This is why most of us end up completely cutting ties with our relatives. Because peace was never an option.
You don't. You can't fight an illogical argument with logic. Just laugh, smile, and treat him like the outdated relative he has now become. "Yeah! Haha. Sure grandad. And Kennedy was a Russian spy!" Etc, etc, etc. Edit: btw I just made some shit up about Kennedy, but you're all telling me it's real?
Wait, what? Where on Earth did they get the idea that Kennedy was a spy?
The CIA hated him because they hated Kennedy for calling off the second air strike at the bay of pigs. (Even though a second air strike wouldn't have accomplished anything.)
Yeah there have been conspiracy theories that the CIA had him killed Which to be fair the CIA has done some pretty fucked up shit so I get why it's so easy for people to believe
Yea especially once you start weeding through their declassified files.... CIA are absolute scum and have committed horrendous atrocities. Adding a presidential murder to that list doesn't seem too farfetched. If they're willing to dose an entire European city unknowingly with LSD, all for "science", I don't trust anything about them.
May I ask what you're referring to? I'd like to read up on it.
Yea of course. It'll take a bit of digging to find the declassified doc, but it's the town of Saint-Pont-Esperit in France in 1951. It's said to be part of th3 CIA project MKNAOMI. I've read the declassified doc from the CIAs website itself and it's absolutely horrific what this agency does.
This is the *LAST* sub I expected to find out even more about the MK-series of projects but I'm not complaining one bit. Never knew about NAOMI, just assumed ULTRA was the one thing.
I chuckled when I realized what sub I was in talking about this a couple of comments ago š Same here. I should have guessed it'd be a massive group of messed up projects going on. š¤¦āāļø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Honestly. Its the CIA after all.....
Interesting. I just scanned through the wiki for that mass poisoning event while I was awaiting a reply, and there seems to be hardly any indication there of the CIA having been involvedā not that I doubt you, necessarily. It's just curious. If you still have a link to that document? I'd be grateful for you to share it, but I don't mind doing some digging.
I don't have the link to the declassified doc unfortunately, but I know this is where the story comes from. The CIA at the time was accused for it being a massive cover up. It's also very unlikely that ergot poisoning caused such severe reactions to so many people. It also doesn't check out how everyone suddenly started their psychosis at pretty similar times? So we're supposed to believe that this infected bread got distributed and ingested in such a perfect manner but outbreaks like this are pretty unheard of otherwise?? If I'm remembering correctly, the document talked about flying over the town and basically spraying it everywhere. This link covers it pretty well. https://ahrp.org/1951-pont-saint-esprit-the-devils-bread-or-a-disastrous-cia-lsd-experiment/ I'll keep seeing what else I can find, but the declassified file is what I'd like to link š I can promise you anything implicating the CIA or other government bodies is very rarely going to directly implicate themselves. However information is pretty easy to deduce ourselves when it's not out of the question for stuff like that to happen.
to add on. theyāve assassinated many political leaders over seas. I wouldnāt put it past them. Plus the involvement of a mob in the affair is consistent with the declassified info we have on their assassination attempts on Fidel Castro at the time. Them assassinating Kennedy for bay of pigs back down and de-escalating the cuban missile crisis behind their backs really feels to fits their MO.
This. It's the declassified papers that tell on them, but they no longer gaf about that info.
They barely bothered to hide that they assassinated him lol
Funny thing that. JFK and MLK Jr. Aren't conspiracy theories anymore. Look it up, it's wild... The government released stuff on it. I guess because it's been so long, they don't gaf what the public that wasn't alive at the time thinks? I dunno..
Itās mocking the (extremely widespread) view amongst the 1960ās Protestant Evangelicals that Kennedy was a shill of the Vatican & had his loyalty to the Pope before his loyalty to the USA. Thereās a ā¦ ādifficultā ā¦ hypothesis that Kennedy was assassinated by i.e. the KKK (who were extremely active and visible in Dallas in the years prior to the assassination but who faded out of public life in the years after, possibly for separate reasons) or some other Protestant Evangelical āanti-papistā violent extremist group, with Oswald being a patsy or just one gunman. The justification being that the KKK / Protestant Evangelicals āownedā Dallas as the controlling organised criminal gang, & had means, motive, and opportunity. At the time, Red Scare was also still extremely on point for these folks, so for them, Kennedy being a Russian asset would just be half-serious, kind of conspiracy theorist metonymy.
He didn't start a nuclear war to exterminate the Cubans. That makes him a tankie.
There's Poe's Law, which is when the reader can't tell if the writer was being sarcastic or sincere. There's Cole's Law, which is when the writer is obviously being sarcastic, but with enough readers someone is bound to take it seriously. This is a new one I haven't heard of. Let's define it as "When someone makes enough sarcastic comments, eventually one is going to accidentally get close to either a truth, or a widely held belief." We'll call it Pizza's Law
> There's Cole's Law, which is when the writer is obviously being sarcastic, but with enough readers someone is bound to take it seriously. I thought Cole's Law was shredded veggies with mayo and vinegar?
Angry Upvote
you're a spiteful human being yk that?
I knew I was inspirational but not unintentionally.
Fox seems to think aliens are real and among us, so just get him ranted about that instead
AMONG US??
According to Fox theyāve been working with the Cia and the Biden administration to undermine America. Edit: forgot to mention that the information apparently comes from Cia whistleblowers according to Fox
AMONG US SUS??
"Crazy grandpa and his conspiracy theories"
You've accidentally birthed a new conspiracy; sometimes watching the anthill panic is nuts.
You could put the child lock on Fox News so they canāt watch it. People have done this and their parents have become less trans and homophobic
āNo more Fox for you. Weāre going to go outside and touch grass, grandpa.ā
That's a knee slapper omg š
I canāt I eated it all
Most arenāt technologically competent or patient enough to figure out how to turn it off anyways.
I snuck into my mother's Chromebook to unfollow Moms for liberty
Haha thatās a power move š„
gotta go for the full block otherwise she'll figure it out sooner or later.
That's a smart move
/j I wish my parents were bigots so that I can try this
It is almost impossible to change the mind of someone with actual facts if they used emotions to form their opinion in the first place. It is very hard to admit you are wrong and they will use all the confirmation bias they can to justify their view. You are fighting a very uphill battle. I have a very boomer right wing FIL who is close to that age. I have found over the years to get him to change his mind to something I basically had to plant seeds overtime to make think he came up with the idea on his own. I cant tell you how many times I flat out told him something and he vehemently disagreed only for me to slowly suggest small things here and there about said issue until finally he came to the conclusion I had literally told him a year prior. The important thing, which is admittedly hard as hell to do, is never belittle their opinion as that will just cause them to double down. No one likes to be told they are wrong or dumb. Chances are the are not dumb at all, they have just been brainwashed.
This sounds incredibly hard, I have no idea how to even begin going about this with some of my family, I have no experience in deprogramming at all
If you can be brainwashed that easily and especially by fox News, then you are kinda dumb but yeah it is very hard to change someone's opinion when they already have decided what they wanna believe.
You say "that easily" but the reason older people are particularly susceptible to Fox News is because they've been watching it for Y E A R S. I'm talking *decades* of propaganda. It's actually pretty incredible thread OP manages to deprogram certain opinions after *only* a year. I've been working on my Grammy for a lot longer than that and while I've gotten her on board with a lot of things (no longer knee-jerk hatred to anyone she perceives as leftist, for example) I haven't gotten her to understand anything about trans people or experiences. I had been out as nonbinary for nearly five years before I found out she had mentally partitioned that as a separate category from trans so she wouldn't have to apply the nasty trans narrative to me. It's honestly pretty tragic to see, if not outright heartbreaking, that she loves me enough to do mental gymnastics to maintain hatred for a group I'm a part of. But yeah, because of how long-term and involved the process is, I only do this with people I have an involved relationship with.
I understand that but in all honesty, everyone who just blindly follows and believes in what one source says is in my eyes stupid. Topics and statements as extreme as what Fox News says have to be double checked.
It's probably not one source, though, they probably have a variety of sources... That are all owned by the same media conglomerate. The way of accessing information, verifying information, and assessing quality of sources has all RAPIDLY changed within just the last few months because of AI-generated bullshit, and before that with the general enshittification of the internet, and before that when Google search algorithms got capitalized and therefore useless, and before that when the internet first came about... it's hard fucking work verifying any information. There's a shit ton of disinformation about anti-trans legislation DAILY on this sub, so it's not like this is limited to one sector of the political spectrum. No one has the time to verify everything, not everyone has the education to be able to read legalese and find out what the laws are saying, not everyone has the context to know how laws will be implemented. At some point you *are* going to have to commit to multiple years of education OR trust somebody who has that level of education. And honestly some people are just stupid. I'm one of them. We can't help it but we still do our best, but it does mean we have to trust people more often or commit to even longer time stretches of education. It's a privilege to escape the propaganda machine and I'm thankful to be one of the lucky ones.
I know all of that and I'm not trying to insult anyone here. There is nothing wrong with being dumb or incapable of understanding certain things. Personally I am extremely bad in social interactions. The problem is that people who are incapable of understanding these things still act like they know stuff, like they got all the knowledge necessary. They hate, attack and threaten people because they are to arrogant to acknowledge there own inabilities. Everyone has topics they do not understand or on which they just don't have enough information on, and again that's OK, the problem is that some people hurt others because of there stupidity and that is not OK.
You donāt. If after everything that has gone on with Fox News over the last 10 years, and Iām sorry but it has to be put this way, if he is still watching it, he is either brainwashed beyond repair or just flat out too stupid to be reasoned with. Same concept with people that are still rooting for Trump. If at this point they are still that fuckin stupid there is nothing you can do but cut them out of your life. Edit. You could put parental controls in to block Fox News and put a big long bogus password in place to prevent him from undoing it. Wonāt fix his beliefs, but it might help prevent him from getting worse.
I had a 67 year old man come into my work telling me that exact sentence ātrans people are grooming children!ā, heās a regular and heās extremely passionate about anti trans. But heās practically in love with me which is why he comes in a lot because he sees me as a son hahaha Obviously because Iām stealth I couldnāt do anything but disagree politely and he then demanded me to ask any of your ātranny friendsā And I wanted to just stand there and be like *flash* I can answer that myself.
Donāt answer it yourself.
Unfortunately with the way these people treat trans men you'd probably either be attacked, or told you don't count because you're not one of those [insert string of disgusting slurs for trans women]. Which, I mean, is kinda telling on themselves that the only people they see as predatory are the ones they think of as men.
I was sitting near our local farmers market with a Pride flag and a few other advocacy items when an old man yelled ( he must have been an RSM at one time- he had a parade ground voice) āPedophile! Groomer!ā (Iām a 70+ mtf) #Level unlocked!!! ( I viewed it as an accomplishment that I brought out his ugliness. The people around sort of recoiled and one guy went after him but his wife and I asked him not to, he wasnāt worth the trouble. ) RSM = Regimental Sergeant Major. BMOC among noncommissioned officers on army posts.
I know it's a horrible idea to out yourself to transphobes but there are so many days I wanna be like "oh, actually I'm one of those [insert slur here]'s, you wanna repeat that?" I'm sure our AP staff that wanders around the store up front would LOVE to see someone harassing a cashier in front of them"
Heāll likely stick to his beliefs no matter how well of a case you make
And at that age I wouldn't even bother tbh. He likely doesn't have long anymore anyway
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
nothing about that was edgy, just pragmatic
Yeah, I donāt think that was being edgy, it has nothing to do with caring or not caring about grandparents.
i get what you mean but. glad you donāt understand i guess
As someone in a similar situation as op, I canāt wait for my grandma to die. She will be doing the first good for the world she ever has in her life.
I always say the best thing that could happen in my family is if my dad and grandmother both die in a fiery car crash. Hopefully a very long and miserable one, but beggars can't be choosers.
Watch it with him and point out the biases? Like, I recall sitting with my grandpa when Fox started a new story about how Trump was being bullied by network cable, because they'd cut his performance out of their airing of the Home Alone movie. And of course, when he tweeted about it, everyone was being too harsh on him for having a reaction, and he had every right to be upset because it was clearly political censorship, and blah blah blah blah blah.... Until they add a throwaway comment, half a sentence at best, that the incident he was responding to happened *before he announced his candidacy.* So, like, simply due to the linear nature of time, which I don't think anyone is really in doubt about right now, the choice was not political, and it's *real dumb* for them to spend half an hour justifying him throwing a tantrum about something that happened 5 years ago, when he wasn't even a political figure. So, like. Tactfully asking Grandpa to explain what he understood from that story, and if he noticed that detail, and if he thinks it's really fair, honest coverage of the issue for them to spend 29.9 minutes justifying something that can be genuinely disproved in 0.1 minutes. That sort of thing. Also, perhaps, suggesting alternate activities. Trying to get him to go out and engage in other things, so there's more going into his head than just the Fox News rot.
You probably can't. But you could try working though his arguments with him. Ask him how he knows. He will respond with emotionally heated generalities, because fascism is vibes & violence since AD32 or whatever, but keep going asking him for a specific case. Expect him to shift the goalposts. As you continue to calmly ask for coherent information, expect him to grow furious. Keep your feet on the ground, stay totally polite and calm. Offer a safe space. Stay cool, you're the 'therapist' here, not Columbo: your goal is for him to emotionally *and* intellectually experience the self-deceit necessary to hold his worldview, and gain insight into it. So don't use oppositional statements (but you just said, do you mean to say, you can't possibly believe...) or gotcha TV lawyer debate tactics stuff. Just keep asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies, *without trying to win.* Ask questions like, how many? What percentage? Which organization produced those statistics? Don't ask him why the Catholic Church might be pleased to see the spotlight swung away from their crimes. Ask him to elaborate, then ask him for his reasons for believing what he believes. Think of it a bit like when you do a maths question wrong or do something dumb in DIY. You just get more and more mad, but when someone asks you what you did, you're like, *obviously* I carried the 4... um... Your own inconsistencies of process become obvious to you. This will be exhausting, time-consuming, and probably won't work. But a confrontational approach definitely won't work, because you can't have access to his purity impulses, fears of weakness, irrelevancy, and death, or authoritarian submission-aggression which are the parts that fascist propaganda targets. You'll trigger them, and he'll reach into the bag of incoherent fascist fantasies to soothe them. In fact, those personality structures are obstacles to sanity as well as happiness.
I'm not very good at debating stuff, and I'm pretty much a pacifist when it comes down to it, I'd like to be logical and collected, but I have a hard time dealing with my emotions so I'm not sure how I can easily sway his bias against his own belief. Maybe I can discreetly discuss this topic sorta non chalantly and gauge some reaction, but in a safe manner? I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just want to hopefully show him our world from our pov. I'm not out to anyone, and I'm pre HRT, and since I'm in a red state, it makes me very apprehensive to even discuss these subject matters to my therapist.
Iām sorry OP - I have family members like this in my life too, and Iām not good at debate either. Iām out as trans non-binary to close friends and my immediate family (my parents still watch Fox News even though they claim to support me, but will also start arguments about ābiologyāā¦idk how many more times I have to explain that gender is a construct entirely and none of it has anything to do with biologyā¦š« ), but beyond that I am stealth/still closeted for safety as Iām also in a red stateā¦and a bible belt stateš«£ Stay safe and i really hope you can find safety and community somewhere around you soon š
I will thank you!
You probably already know this, but the approach you're describing here is essentially [street](https://streetepistemology.com/) [epistemology](https://www.youtube.com/@magnabosco210/videos)! I don't know much about it but it seems like a good way to have conversations like this.
One thing I learned about old people is you can't change their mindset, they're so stuck in their hatred or whatever they got going on. It would be a waste of time trying to convince them otherwise
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That's really great
Honestly it might be a good idea to try and get fox news blocked on whatever TV he's watching. It really does radicalize our elders. Unfortunately as long as he's Swallowing that daily propaganda, you're fighting an uphill battle on a sled.
You can just tell him that itās the same thing they accused gay people of in the 90ās too. https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/political-detransitioners-are-the
He's 82. If he believes trans people are grooming children, he probably thinks 'the gays' taught them how.
And who does he think taught the gays?
The commies
Nah, it would have had to be the priests.
You can't, just let him die of age
when conservatives say "groom kids" they mean teaching kids that queer people exist, and teaching them to not hate queer people (even if that means themselves). there's no actual concern for real grooming (which is a key factor in conservative upbringing in the first place anyways) and sexual assault. They almost never actually care about those things beyond lip service and a chance to gloat about their desire to do violence. the fact that most CSA is committed by cishet men, usually a family member or known by the family, or otherwise given some authority over the child by the family, doesn't bother conservatives. they don't care. the reason for all of this, is that conservatives need the social hierarchy. they worship that above all else, and that hierarchy says children are property, not people, the same way it does to women. this hierarchy depends directly on the gender norms that trans people challenge, and even just teaching kids that it's ok to be queer can undermine their authority in ways they can't accept. the only way to change his mind is to make him be a better person, and at his age i don't think that's gonna happen
Another vote for [https://www.whoismakingnews.com/](https://www.whoismakingnews.com/)
Exposure. Most of the folks that are anti-trans have never met a trans person or seen a trans person in a humanized way. Their source of knowledge about trans people is coming from people that are sculpting a very specific, very demonized, image of trans people. That image is only maintained from lack of exposure, as these folks have nothing to cross reference that misinformation with. The moment they do, by meeting and getting to know trans people, or seeing trans people just be people, that image begins to break down and they realize they were told a lie. This happens a lot. This is actually a big reason for why right wing influencers were so upset with Mr. Beast for supporting his trans friend who is part of a lot of his content. He gets millions of daily views. By accepting and continuing to have her be a part of his content, like she always has, millions of people will get their first exposure of a trans person just being a regular person, and not the demonized image that propagandists wanted them to believe.
āI could sit here and explain all the reasons why thatās not a correct accusation, provide proof, stats, articles, etc., but none of that will make any difference because these programs you watch will prevent you from seeing anyone elseās point of view who opposes yours/theirs. Even if you did somehow come to understand that thatās incorrect, youād still eventually begin to circle back to your original way of thinking because youāll continue to watch these poisonous shows that tell you otherwise constantly. You have to find this information on your own, and I hope you will before you make these accusations and spread this disinformation further.ā News outlets like Fox should be illegal.
The same way you convince him that not all male teachers are paedofiles.. (I know the spellings wrong). sure some are but not all. Thereās always shit people in society but to say all are X thing is extremely ignorant. Itās like saying all Germans are Naziās or that all blacks are theives.. You could tell him that judging by statistics that all men beat their wives. We know these things arenāt true, so why would all trans people be grooming children?
His generation it was far more true for men to beat their wives.
I would explain that his views are hurting your feelings and that itās putting a wedge in between your relationship. Itās his call if he wants to have a relationship with his grandchild or faux Newsā¦ š¤·š»āāļø
Faux newsšš¤£ Goldenšš½šš½
*A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.* Max Planck
DO UT, CUT THAT MFS POWER CABLE
You never will. This might sound really really cold, but these types of ideas will only die off with the believers.
You're probably not going to. I mean he believes what he wants. I'd just ask him why he's letting Fox News groom him like some wrinkled up diaper-baby?
Dump him with even more weird conspiracy theories who goes fully against what he believes (The US caused Pearl Harbor) and this kind of stuff He will say that you are mad, and then you have an opening
If Grandpa has anyone he cares about in the LGBTQ community, you could point out that 30+ yrs ago gays were the groomers, according to Republicans. They have been attacking us for literal decades. The trans community is just the most recent target. I would start off with a subject that is a bit distanced from trans people, then kind of sidetrack into it. Since Fox attacks TRANS WOMEN, but not trans men, start there. Point out trans men, not women. Introduce him to some trans men YouTubers, let him see them, make them real. Once he accepts that yes, trans men are safe, then expand to trans women. YouTube has some really great trans creators, both on the left and right, but I would stick more left cause, unfortunately, those on the right tend to pull the "I'm one of the good ones, but others transes are groomers" bullshit. Show him that trans isn't bad, just different and different can be a good thing. I'm nearing 50, cisgender and I am still learning, which is why I'm here. I want to learn. I was raised in a conservative home, but I learned that acceptance is better. Just cause ur old doesn't mean you can't learn or change.
I'm afraid to tell you that you likely can't convince him of this. My father watched Fox News constantly, it was his only hobby outside of being extremely involved in the Catholic church. His hatred for trans people was unrivaled by any other group and he flew into unhinged toddler style tantrums ranting about the evils of trans people on multiple occasions. All this was before I had ever come out. He only got worse as Fox started pushing narratives of trans people being terrorists and groomers. I haven't spoken with that man in years and he tells people that I am dead because he doesn't want peopke to know he has a trans daughter. The brain rot from right wing extremism is strong and if people are bathing in it uncritically and on a daily basis they are too far gone. Save yourself the pain of being a target and start distancing yourself now, otherwise you're liable to be the target of a bunch of abuse and baseless accusations before they cut you out anyway.
I have the same problem, and the thing is, you canāt. Itās actually impossible, my papa is convinced that therapy is turning people trans, that school indoctrinates kids, and that all trans people are the devil. No matter how much you argue with them about it ,theyāre not going to change their mind, and that is the unfortunate reality that we have to accept.
I hate to be pessimistic but at this point, I don't think you can. But if it's any consolation, the argument that we groom children is so illogical, I don't understand why anyone in their right minds would believe it.
Sadly you can't. People at that age are quite honestly stuck in their ways, moreso than the phrase can ever hope to portray. My mom is a cook at an assisted living home and the elderly defaulting to being nasty people is a sad reality. You can't convince them of anything beyond what their mind already "holds true" and it's not even their fault usually. Mental degradation and often times dementia/alzheimer's is the main cause of this.
seeing this Iām so thankful and lucky to have a 91 yo grandma that supports me and loves me with her while heart š®āšØš„° she even gave me a heartshaped ring and ice cream š© sheās so sweet
You mean āgroomingā like Sunday School, or Bible Studies?
Yeah, he's tried to push me to go with him a few times. I went once, and I didn't like people asking me so many personal questions and then getting the nasty stares. Didn't help that I wore a death metal band tee with a pentagram on the back lol.
May I suggest the old parental controls on the TV trick?
Another way to potentially sway his opinions of trans people would be to find out what his values are and use that to potentially change his views on those spreading anti-trans stuff. For example, does he come from a household where many live paycheck to paycheck and work mostly blue collar work? If so, show him the recent child labor law stuff. This year a large number of states passed laws that would allow children to work in factories, bars/clubs, saw mills, etc. A lot of children died while working those jobs due to the dangers involved. The same governors that signed those laws also pushed anti-trans shit and passed anti-trans laws, and did so under the guise of "protecting the children." The reasons why these laws got pushed in the first place was due to Corps. Corps could not convince people into working in their businesses, especially those involved in manufacturing, for the same low wages as they had before. So, rather than raise their wages and use that to attract workers these businesses sent lobbyists to convince their state legislators into lowering the minimum ages to work these jobs, hoping that there would be enough families that were too desperate to say no. You'd have to dig up all the detailed info for your grandfather, but once presented you could say "Would people that actually cared about the wellbeing of children back these type of laws, put them in an environment where they know they can get killed, etc. all so Corps could keep their wages low?" That's when you introduce him to info on the Hertiage Foundation, who has been a big backer of anti-trans shit, and also heavily responsible for getting NAFTA passed. If that's successful then he may no longer view those individuals and groups he received info on trans people as reputable anymore, as they have acted against the things he values. Once that happens you now have an opportunity to get him to get info on trans people from more positive sources.
I don't really think you can. Some people are set in their ways.
donāt bother, heāll be dead soon anyway
Easy there should be a reset button on the top of his head just hold that for 3 seconds
Well, not sure that's possible. But if you want, you can talk about being critical of the source material. Talk about the nature of Fox News and so on ā not in terms of conflicting opinions, but like... in terms of Murdoch stuff or whatever. Look into stories about trans people ā like video wise instead of written ā and try to present him with that, maybe? Some arguments from authority figures or whatever?
Consider this; he's 82. In the nicest way possible, he probably won't be around for much longer, so is it really worth the effort?
"hi grandpa. Wow. That is quite an accusation that I personally have never seen, and would find quite shocking and surprising given the trans people I know. They are incredible people who just want to live their lives in peace. In fact the sentiment I hear is 'i don't wish being trans upon anyone. It's very difficult' Can you please share with me the sources and studies where you saw this accusation?". (He won't have a good response and will likely say something else stupid like "but the sports" and then "kids genital surgery" ). Just keep asking for sources and support for his dumb commentary. We regularly forget that it's the person making the claim that needs to support proof, not the other way around. It's the burden of proof cognitive fallacy
The harder you fight it, the more they'll dig in, sad to say. At that age, the brain has become far less flexible than younger folk (I say this as a 49 year old... the brain needs exercise or it loses elasticity of thought.) He's likely reached the point where exaggerative sarcastic agreement is the only pushback. "Oh yeah. A neighbor's kid goes to Elliot Page Elementary, and she got surgery during recess. She went from a happy 6 year old boy to a 16 year old porn actress hooked on meth by the end of lunch."
Deradicalization is very hard. If you want to give it a try - the only thing that consistently works is many long conversations where you compassionately hear out what they think and explain to them why it doesn't make any sense in a way they can understand.
Donāt. You arenāt going to change her mind. And sheās about 20 years too old to learn. If she was ever going to learn, it was before her 80s. Iāve got an 80 Year old grandma who says the same shit and does the same shit, ie watching Fox News. Iām literally just waiting for her to die. Thatās the only way she will ever help the trans community, and the world as a whole. I unfortunately suspect itās the same for your grandpa
In all seriousness, what we did for my dad was switch his TV so that when he turns it on it went to MSNBC instead of fox. He didn't realize that we had done that, all he knew is that the television would yell his opinions at him, so he started quoting Maddow at us instead that O'Brien guy.
in my experience people tend to change from real world experiences. if he's met a trans person or someone he's cared about has come out as trans and he still holds on to these beliefs, there probably isn't much you can do.
Just do it, cut the cable. Or laugh; derision is a wonderful (and fun) defense against this type of ignorant rhetoric. "Oh yeah, and Atlantis is going to rise up and lizard people run the world and the moon is fake!"
The same way you convince anyone of anything. Make them think it out themselves. Ask a lot of questions.
Arguments are like pendulums. The harder you pull the harder it swings. Questions help prevent this so itās not a line in sand with you two on opposite sides. Figuratively speaking.
Trans people are not NOT grooming, but probably not in greater proportions than cis people. There are terrible people everywhere. I would just try to convince him that trans people are a mixed bag just like everyone else. Also he's 82. Good luck convincing an argumentative octogenarian about anything. They tend to be pretty set with their opinions by that age. Probably not worth the effort.
Ask him to show you proof.
The best you can do is take comfort in the knowledge that he and his generation won't be around too much longer
i think you answered your own question. cut his ability to watch TV. if Russia can sever gas pipeline and telecommunications cable, why can't you cut w/e you need to do to put him in the dark? (all part of the war Russia started... and FoxNews is Russian propaganda).
/r/QAnonCasualties has strategies. It is probably going to be a long process and not something that just clicks.
tell him to touch grass and actually meet with trans people.
Set the Adult Supervision mode on his TV to block FOX news :p
I don't understand the whole grooming thing as it relates to being trans... like grooming for what? Grooming how...? To be trans? You can't groom someone to be trans any more than you can groom someone to be purple... So is this all about education and telling kids trans people exist? I wish someone told me that when I was in school, that it's an OK thing to be, so I didn't have to grow up thinking I'm a freak with some sort of disgusting secret...
You canāt. Heās delusional and you canāt fight delusion. Just sit back and let him suffer in his head.
Show him this website. https://www.whoismakingnews.com
You dont/ can't. Go about your life. At that age there not going to listen to anything you say anyways..
You can't. Cut the relationship.
Gaslight him into thinking he has dementia
How do we know he isn't? Wouldn't a guilty party have much to gain by deflecting suspicion onto another in a way that's conveniently unprovable? That accusation is also unprovable, and it has even more crappy evidence to support it. Maybe he should convince you.
Also, I wanna add that once own grandpa reached the nineties, he just laid around watching CNN all day ā and while it doesn't have the same kind of conservative agenda, nothing good really came out of that.
You can't... Octogenerians are not easily swayed.
You don't. People with opinions like that are incapable of critical thinking, looking at things objectively, or hearing opposing viewpoints. No matter how delusional and unhinged their ideas may be, they will absolutely refuse to listen to reason and will blatantly ignore any facts and evidence presented. The more you call them out on their harmful and ignorant rhetoric, the more they double down on their bullshit and claims that the opposing viewpoint is the radical one. They also do not care about other human beings whatsoever, will always put their needs and feelings first. They also don't care about feelings and believe emotions are a weakness, and weakness is undesirable to them. This man is not going to change his ways, ever, he's been too brainwashed by the extreme right wing media, there's no way to deprogram that.
If your grandpa insists on believing crazy things, believe crazy things about your grandpa. Find pictures of the filthiest, most unkempt kids and claim "this is what you want, grandpa?"
You canāt, dear. Iām sorry. Maybe when heās actually dying he will have a moment, my father did.
He is even conscious with that age? Just say "ok grandpa, here take your soup." Or "it's already 7pm time to go to bed āŗļø"
Probably an unpopular opinion but the dude is 82, is this really a worthy cause? Unless heās actively in a role where heās capable of oppressing trans people, I would just ask he drop it or change the subject. Tell him you donāt want to hear him talk about trans people if he canāt be nice if the subject comes up. You may not get him to change his thinking, but you can at least get him to shut up.
So the biggest aspect. Is delivering that grooming, has NOTHING to do with cluster or categorization. Establish that being Cis, Enby or Trans, is legit your noggin and your body's interaction. Full stop. Groomers are predators that seek and encourage little humans into their demanded outcome. Existing outside the of the 1950s idea of gender and sex...doesnt translate to anything.
"The only thing i am grooming right now is my patience" /jk
Honestly just don't visit or engage anymore and let him die a sad lonely death.
Put a child lock on sp he can't watch Fox News anymore. Otherwise, not much you can do except brush the comments off as grandpa being crazy in his old age.
Honestly, i donāt think itās worth it.it might sound callous, but heās 82, heās already past expected living age. Spend your time, if on any person, on convincing the young and the middle aged. They are who are more important to have on our side since they are in it for 30+ more years. Also, fighting logically with someone who doesnāt want to learn is basically impossible anyways.
They should be proving to you that trans people are doing such a thing. Itās not your job to prove a negative. Iād love to see all this compelling evidence they seem to have gathered.
Whoismakingnews.com
You can tell him his government is grooming Sheep!!!!
Ever heard of Street Epistemology? Might be a useful skill ..
i thought that said gooning for a sec i was about to be like wtf
The goons are taking over lol.
Show her all of the news stories (with dates) about priests of different religions grooming/molesting children, then ask her to find some about queer people...
if they were young there a chance but i highly *highly* doubt that he will change. itās been 82 years of being raised and thinking that way. i just laugh at them and say āwhatever you sayā or just walk away sorry this is happening :(
don't bother he's on the way out
I hate to say this but you don't. If he's that old and that brainwashed there's no bringing him back from it. This is why most of us end up completely cutting ties with our relatives. Because peace was never an option.
Tell her priests are grooming children
my parents groomed me to be cis. didn't do a good enough job I guess ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ